WEBVTT - Black Panther: Wakanda Forever + Ironheart Writer Eve L. Ewing 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:21.160 Warning this podcast can date spoilers for Black Panther Wakanda Forever. Hello, 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:24.680 my name is Jason Concepcion, and welcome to x ray Vision, 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:28.720 The Crooked Podcast where we dive deep, all the way 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:32.919 to the bottom of the ocean into your favorite shows, movies, comics, 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.440 and pop culture. In this episode in the Airlock, we're 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:39.240 gonna be diving deep into the Black Panther Wakanda Forever. 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:41.360 Rosie and I are gonna talk about the characters, talk 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:43.519 about the themes, talk about our thoughts about it, talk 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:45.839 about some of the history. It's gonna be fun. A 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.480 return of the omnibus segment. We're gonna talk about Wakanda, 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:54.200 the Black Panther, and the Afrofuturism aesthetic movement in the 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:58.920 Hive Mind. We will be joined by author, sociologist, professor, poet, 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:04.280 and writer of the acclaimed Iron Heart comic for Marvel, 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:08.920 Eve l Ewing. It was just so excited for this. 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:11.360 If you want to jump around, of course, check the 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:15.640 show notes for the timestamps and join me. Today is 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.440 the writer Comics Encyclopedia. 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:25.000 She is the heart shaped the Great Rosie Day. 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:29.399 I'm saying, yeah, this is so exciting, I mean, most 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:32.720 anticipated movie of the year probably, and here we are 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:34.680 about to break it all down and talk about some 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.560 of the amazing creators who made it possible and talk 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:41.040 about this wild movie and of course like thirst over 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:44.400 nay more. 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.480 So, Okay, let's get into it first. Up recapping Black 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:59.680 Panther Wakanda Forever, we're stepping out of the air lock 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.320 and into talkan to discuss the latest installment of the MCU, 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:04.840 the last film in Phase four. 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:06.240 Black Panther Wikonda Forever. 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.360 Here we go, the last film in Marvel's Phase four, 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:12.679 which is a wild thing to say. It opens in Wakanda, 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:16.840 where in Suri's lab, the Princess is frantically trying to 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.360 synthesize a replacement for the heart shaped herb, which was 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:23.880 destroyed by Kilmonger, of course after he sees power in 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:27.440 the first film. And sure he needs this because t'achala 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:31.760 is terminally ill. The herb is his only chance to survive. 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:36.560 She pushes through a formula to production. It's maybe only 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:40.760 thirty percent effective, Grio her Ai tells her. But before 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:43.320 she can rush it to the King's bedside, Queen Romanda 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:48.160 appears and the king has passed. You know, this was 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:50.840 the big question, right is how are they going to 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:55.160 handle it? And I thought they handle it with appropriate 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.880 grace and real sadness. I mean there's a real. 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:04.040 Sadness and there is a space within this for the 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:07.200 actors and the friends of Chadwick to mourn Chadwick while 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:11.800 Morning T'Challa. After this, we get this huge funeral scene. 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.840 It's a celebration, it's a morning and then boom a 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.560 year later and we see the fallout. 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:23.600 One year later, French commandos are rating a Wakandan science facility. 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.880 They force the workers there to open up a vault, 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:32.040 but it is a trap out stride a Koye ao 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:36.280 Aneka and other Dora Malaje who are who are disguised 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.920 as the as the scientists there, and they easily best 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:44.480 these commandos. Later, at a closed session of the United 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:48.800 Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, American and French officials are just 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:54.200 tearing into Queen Ramonda. They are saying that Wakanda has 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.480 not lived up to its obligations see International Community. I 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:03.720 guess Wakanda had promised to share. 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:08.080 At some point the end of Black Panther, and this 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:11.520 is one of the spanners that was thrown into the 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.320 works with everything like the tragedies that happened during the 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:16.599 two movies. The end of Black Panther opens with this 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:22.160 idea of Wakanda being a nation that will be open, 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.760 will be part of the global community, will share technology. 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.599 Was going to open a STEM school in Oakland. You 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:29.719 know that was influence. 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:30.880 We're going to give you. 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:35.600 We're going to give you vibranium, and also like greedy, 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:37.719 this is they're greedy and it's going to cause a 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.159 big problem for everyone. 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:40.720 Now. 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:44.440 Of course, vibranium, as we're going to see over the 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:47.120 course of this movie, and as we saw in Black Panther, 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:52.120 is a It's a wonder substance. It's not only a metal, right. 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:56.359 It has a staggering number of applications. It's easily workable. 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:01.279 It can be an indestructible substance, but a can also absorb, store, 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:02.360 and amplify energy. 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:03.159 It can give. 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:05.280 People superpowers, on and on and on and on, and 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:09.039 the rest of the world is like, hey share this stuff, 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:12.080 and Wakanda rightly has said no. 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:14.800 Yeah, especially because they keep talking about how it can 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.200 be used to make weapons. They're acting like. 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:19.320 That's what they would love to get them. 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:21.280 But really that's what they want it for. They want 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:24.520 to make weapons of mass destruction with Wakanda with vibranium. 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:26.279 Yeah, and the Queen says, we're not going to do 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:27.920 that because the rest of the world can't be trusted 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:33.479 with vibranium. Whether Wakanda has ever actually again formally agreed 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:37.279 to share this substance unclear, but would love to learn 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:40.320 more about, like why the world thinks this. Whatever the case, 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.440 we all understand she made the right decision, and certainly 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:48.880 the world does. When she then parades the captured commandos 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.840 into the hall, the chastened French ambassador, it's unclear whether 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.640 the French ambassador would have had any idea that this 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:56.360 was happening. 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:58.760 You know it is, but they say that it was 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:03.000 someone who was from a member state. And then the 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:05.440 French ambassador, who's been kind of really pushing for. 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:10.480 This, is like, oh, I guess we've done bad stuff, 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:15.400 and the Queen promises a harsh response if the world 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:21.599 ever again violates Wakandan sovereignty. Later, somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean, 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:27.040 there is a boat of CIA scientists protected by, as 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:32.680 Tony might say, jasop guys and they have discovered a 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:38.320 deposit of vibranium deep under the ocean. It is at 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:42.120 this point the only known deposit of the material outside 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.279 of Waconda. Scientists and diving suits are going in for 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:49.560 a closer look. But soon mysterious warriors are peering out 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:53.159 of the waves, and one of these with wings on 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:56.040 his feet, snatches a helicopter out of the air hurls 0:06:56.040 --> 0:07:00.560 it into the sea, and we can we're led to 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.120 believe that all the scientists, everybody on this boat has 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.600 been neutralized to be gay guilt. 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.360 And we hear a sirens song, and we see these 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.880 men just throwing themselves off the ocean, off the boat, and. 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:13.960 It's not just a brute attack there. 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:19.520 These these people are able to somehow take over people's 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:20.040 minds and. 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:25.840 Draw them on hypnotization that like the siren song of interesting, 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.160 which like, I'm really glad that they're leaning into that 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.320 because everyone's always said it's a mom man. 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:36.680 In Wakanda, the queen is worried about her daughter, Princess 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.679 sureI Surey is taking to Challa's death very very hard. 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:43.560 She blames herself essentially for not being able to save him. 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:49.400 Queen Ramonda takes Shury to the bush Uh and there 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:53.400 the Queen burns her ceremonial funeral gown, and she wants 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.160 Shuri to do the same, but sure he can't move on, She. 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:56.680 Can't let go. 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:00.360 She says that if anything's gonna burn, it's going to 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:05.360 be the world, which is alarming. At that moment, a 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:08.760 man with winged feet emerges from the river nearby. It's 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:10.520 our friend nay War. We get a good look at him. 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:10.680 Now. 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:15.040 He's looking good, He's looking really, really great. He somehow 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:19.480 managed to evade Wakanda's cutting edge, cutting, cutting edge border 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:22.520 defenses of which we have seen of the courses, you know, 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:23.320 various movies. 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:23.840 By Now. 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:30.120 He tells them that his nation, Talakan, also has vibranium. 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.680 They too, kept themselves hidden from the world, have kept 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:37.960 themselves successfully hidden from the world, but Wakanda's Wakanda's emergence 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:43.760 and her decision to reveal the existence of vibranium has 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:48.360 the knock on effect of that is, it's awakened the 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:50.280 world's greed for vibranium. 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:52.600 And they want to find vibranium. They want to find 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:54.560 the source of it for themselves. They want to find 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:58.280 new sources, which is going to definitely play in to 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.600 the future of the MC you as well as just 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:06.479 the ramifications of name Or now existing and being rightfully pissed. 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.720 So led by brand new technology that can ditect that 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.840 can detect vibranium, the US military has come poking around 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:19.640 in the ocean near Telekan's hiding place, and Naymar says, 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.200 Wakanda has to take responsibility for the mess that it 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:27.679 helped create. Wakanda should ally itself with Talakan and demonstrate 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:33.520 that friendship, how by killing that scientist or capturing that 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:38.200 scientist and bringing them to Telekan so that talcan can 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:43.520 then kill the scientist. And it's either that or name 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.160 More promises that we're going to attack Wakanda, bring it 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:47.960 to its knees. 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.480 Okay bye, And then Naymar. 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:54.720 Disappears under the water and he leaves the undersea vibranium 0:09:54.800 --> 0:10:00.480 detector curiously for Wakanda to kind of investigate into, I. 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:04.720 Just have to say, he's he's old man, he's rightfully angry. 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:08.199 In my opinion, he might be. He's coming to them 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:11.000 with a little bit of aggression. But this is the 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:15.240 first of many times that nay More makes the correct 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.440 offer to Wakanda that they should ally themselves. 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:21.440 They should ally themselves and nobody wants to listen to 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.880 nay Moore, and so much of the horror of this 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:29.360 movie could be absolutely avoided if Wakanda was just real 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:31.720 about the outside. 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:35.520 World and the strength of allying with Talakhan. 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:38.679 We will we will unpack that later, I have. 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:43.360 I think one of the wonderful subjects of this movie 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:48.320 is that Wakandan leadership. Listen, we love the Queen, I 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:52.320 love Shuri T'Challa. May he rest in peace. I do 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:59.160 think that specifically post the Wakandan revealed to the world, 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:03.920 I think, uh, decision making has been spotty at best. 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.959 But that's a monarchy, baby. We're gonna get that problem, 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:09.040 the monarchy, you know. 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.400 Should we have just been like, okay, kill Monger is 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:13.720 the guy now, and I guess we got to do 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:17.920 everything he said. Like on his side, I think there 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.800 need there needed to be mechanisms by which to say, no, 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:24.000 we're not just going to destroy all the heart shape 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:29.480 her now, Like wait, hold on a second, it seems bad. 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:30.719 A. 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.960 Koya gets the identity of the scientist from her contact 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:39.000 in the CAA. The Wakana's man in the CIA, Everett Ross, 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:42.359 CIA agent and colonizer, has been feeding a Koya intelligence 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:42.960 for years. 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:48.240 Apparently. The scientist's name is Reee Williams. 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:53.120 A nineteen year old student at MI T Surey, against 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:58.599 the queen's wishes, goes with a Koya on the ostensibly 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:02.840 snatch and grab a kidnap mission, right but but sure 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:06.600 he is saying, Hey, I'm a brilliant scientist. Also, maybe 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.880 I can talk to this person and convince them to 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:10.480 help us. 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:12.959 Actually, they confront re Rea the. 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:16.960 Sudden appearance of a princess of Wakanda uh and a 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:21.000 general of the Wakandan military. Let's re Reno that actually 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.360 this is very serious, Like is very concerned that, Oh shit, 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:25.520 did I piss off Wakanda? 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:27.839 Yeah, what do you think you'd like? I do want 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.720 to say something that wanted to radio. 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.240 One of my favorite things is that she's like, did 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.000 you make this for the CIA? Sure, he asks her, like, 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:37.600 why did you do that? And she's like, no, I 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:39.960 made it for homework. I made it for my metal 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:44.600 g class. Like that lets you know that really is 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.640 one of the most intelligent people in the Marvel universe. 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:50.840 In the MCU. She did this. She created this thing 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:52.479 as a as a homework. 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:55.880 Homework science took her a couple of months. It wasn't 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:57.000 even that deep. 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:01.600 And one of the concerns raised by the ambassadors to 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:09.280 the UN is that this vibranium cannot be detected by 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.360 any existing technology. Metal detectors don't pick it up. 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:12.880 You can use it. 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.000 You can make a bomb out of vibranium then just 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:19.040 walk it into the airport. Right but here, Rary Williams 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:21.199 has figured out a way to detect vibraniums. 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:21.920 This is a big deal. 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:28.320 She takes Shurei and a Koya to her lab nearby, 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.720 but before she can show them her you know, her 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:38.600 research into the vibranium detector, the FBI surrounds the building. 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:42.680 There's a big chase with shuriy and Akoye you know, 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.400 on the streets and rear in her home brewce Stark 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:51.000 Tech inspired Ironheart Mark one battlesuit, which gets its debut 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.160 here but on a bridge over the Charles River, the 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:59.199 Talkanil ambush R trio of heroes. A Koya's fighting skills 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:03.800 are world class, of course, but that Talacanil are super 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:09.319 humanly strong, very very hard to kill, and Suri ends 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:13.920 up convincing them to take her captive along with re Rey, 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:18.439 to their king so that she can argue for Rerey's life. 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.840 Rosie tell us more about Reary, Williams. 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:26.720 Yeah, I mean, this is such an exciting addition because 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.520 this is probably one of, if not the quickest transitions 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.640 we've seen from a character being introduced. Reary was introduced 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.240 in twenty Sixteens Invincible I Am an number seven from 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.520 volume three, created by Brian Michael Bennis and Mike Diodardo, 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.400 So that's only six years between then and now her 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.320 making her MCU debut. And then she's kind of like 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.520 what we see in the movie, though in the comic 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:51.320 she was a little bit younger. She was fifteen. She's 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.680 an MIT student super genius who in the comics built 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.680 her own version of Tony Stark's Mark forty one suit 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:02.400 as a pet project, and she did that while he 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:07.080 was missing, presumed dead, and he was actually undercover in Madriport, 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:11.200 And that was in the lead up to Road to 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.800 Civil War two, and she would eventually appear in that event. 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:16.920 She was in some other comics that were tied to it, 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:20.520 like Guardians to the Galaxy, but wouldn't debut as iron 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.400 Heart until the first issue of the fourth volume of 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.800 Invincible iron Man, which was that famous cover where she's 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:28.680 in the suit and it says you know iron Heart 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:33.040 on the cover. That story stuck to this idea. She's 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.760 from Chicago. It's got a little bit of early Mars 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:40.560 moralesness to it. AKA. Her story was quite it leaned 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.800 into some tropes. She'd been in trouble at school. The 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.400 police were going to arrest her because, I will say, 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:50.040 salvage the parts to make the iron Heart suit. So really, 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:55.040 the version of Really that we are seeing now is 0:15:55.160 --> 0:16:01.040 the Eve Viewing expanded holistic that was introduced in the 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:05.240 twenty eighteen solo iron Heart series with originally drawn by 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:09.800 Kevin Lebranda and then Luciano Veccio and Jeffolded some pencils 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:16.280 and layouts, and that was where Ironheart became a Marvel legend. 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:18.840 That was the story that made people fall in love 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.040 with her. That was the story that showed that she 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.920 was a super genius who was also a normal teenager 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:28.080 who had this unbelievable relationship with Tony Stark. That was 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:32.720 this mentorship, this beautiful space where she could be the smartest, 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.720 most impressive version of herself with someone who was her peer. 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:39.160 We know in the MCU Tony is dead rip sorry 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:44.400 to that man, But in Eve's in Eve's Iron Heart 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:52.120 story in issue nine, Tony arranges it for really to 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:56.840 visit Shuri in Wakanda. And obviously what we're seeing in 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.000 the movie here is leaning more into that Rheree's relationship 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:02.880 is not one of a mentor with Tony in the MCU, 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:07.760 it is one of a burgeoning partnership and alliance with Wakanda, 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:09.960 with Shuri, with one of the only people in the 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:11.880 whole of the MCU who can go toe to toe 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:15.920 with her on an intelligence level. And it's very exciting 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:20.639 to just see her be thrown into this wild world. 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.159 And as you said about you know about to go 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:24.440 to Talakhan. 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.399 Well, in a vast Karen under the ocean, Shuri meets 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:32.960 kokoul Kan, who the Talakanil worship as their god and 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.080 whose enemies call Nemour. 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:36.680 When he. 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.800 Will pause there because I just want to say that 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:48.120 when when when Nemour explains the origin of his name, 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.320 I was like, whoever came up with this is the 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:52.560 smartest person. 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.520 Ten out of ten ten out of town. 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:00.359 Yeah, just one of the coolest origin of an name, 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:04.679 one of the most smart recontextualizations which this series the 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:08.280 Black Panther movies have been known for. But it is 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:10.880 it's like gosp out loud good. 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:11.880 It was amazing. 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.679 So he tells Suri of the history of himself and 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:19.880 his people. Over five hundred years ago, native people around 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:22.199 what is now called the Yucatan Peninsula were dying of 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:28.159 smallpox brought to the land by Spanish Conkystradores. One of 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.159 the shamans of the indigenous people has a vision that 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:36.080 leads them to find a plant in a cavern underwater. 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.680 Looks very much like the harsh sure. 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.440 Right, It's slightly different in color, maybe a little blue 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.560 in color, but looks to be the same, and the 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.800 people create a kind of potion out of this plant. 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.440 They ingest it. It protects them against the smallpox, but 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.840 it also turns their skin blue and takes away from 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:58.439 them the ability to breathe air, but gives them the 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:00.000 ability to breathe underwater. 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:04.040 Her name or his mother, who is pregnant at the time. 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:06.520 Had to be persuaded to take the plant, but she 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:11.480 does and her child is born with amazing abilities that 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:17.600 are beyond what the tealcanill have, and he becomes the leader, 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:22.160 the king, the god in fact to his people. Years later, 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:27.160 following his mother's dying wish, Cookoulcan returns to his mother's 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:29.760 human village to lay her remains to rest, and there 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:34.200 he finds that the Spanish have enslaved the local indigenous people. 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:37.560 In retribution, he slays. 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:40.919 Them and by the way, he looks like he's like 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:44.200 but he's probably like fifty or something, but he makes 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:45.360 like a baby yees. 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:49.680 So he slays the conquistadors and as one dying priest 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:55.280 looks upon him, you know, with fear, the priest says 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:59.159 that this this boy describes the boy as El Nino Cinemore, 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.000 the boy with out love, and from this no more 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.879 could cool kind of takes his name of war and 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.760 I was like, holy shit, that's it so clever. 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:13.000 And my favorite thing about it is like, at first 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:15.120 it sounds a little bit like Emo, and it's kind 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.159 of like he has no love because his heart's broken 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:18.480 and his mother is not there. 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:22.159 But really for the service, he has no love for 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:22.679 the service. 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:25.320 Well, that's like the hardest shit in the MC I 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:29.440 could not believe it good. I'm just obsessed so good, 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.400 And to be able to recontextualize, like we haven't even 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:34.560 really gotten in nay More is you know, one of 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:39.480 Marvel's oldest characters debuted in like nineteen thirty nine and 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:46.120 has throughout history been entangled in some of the more 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:51.199 problematic and racist depictions of characters of color, and like 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:56.080 Marvel's own fear of especially like Asian communities and this 0:20:56.160 --> 0:21:00.040 idea of an Asian superpower, and ironically some of that 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.000 actually makes the old name or stuff. Some of the 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:04.119 panels are quite radical, and you see this kind of 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:06.640 like interesting subversion of what they. 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:10.360 Thought they were against the white race. Yeah, like he's on. 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:12.280 His mission to kill the white man or whatever. 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:12.920 Like, but. 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:18.200 I love that they took this name that was given 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:20.960 to him, you know, the submarrin or name or always 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:23.280 been quite a character of people been like, oh, he's 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:25.800 wearing some pants, he's got wings on his he's quite silly, 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:30.080 he's quite campy. And to create an origin for that 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:35.080 name that is so directly linked to this brilliant recontextualization 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:40.240 and this very what feels very authentic to the conversations 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:42.679 that are being had and the realities of the horror 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:46.560 of colonialism. It's just so cool like that, that is 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:49.560 just a level of craft and detail in writing that 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:53.200 just cannot go uncelebrated. So I'm glad that I'm glad 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:54.080 we brought it up. 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:55.639 It's so good, beautiful. 0:21:56.240 --> 0:22:00.760 The Queen travels to Haiti, where Nikia is running a school. 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:04.679 She has lived there apparently since the blip. Devastated by 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:07.200 to child's death, she just couldn't bring herself to return 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.240 to Wakanda, not even for his funeral. The Queen convinces 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:15.840 Nikia to uh to you know, bring back her super 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:19.920 spy skills and track down Princess Shuri, who is who 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:23.440 is missing and in the hands of the Talkanil. Meanwhile, 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:29.040 Everett Ross's new boss, the Contessa Valentina Allegradfontaine. 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.200 Is all over his ass. 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:34.560 The CIA director wants to refound She wants to know 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:37.000 how the Wakandans because who else would do this tracked 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:40.879 her down, and the Kintessa also wants to start thinking 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:45.000 about how we can respond, how we can start destabilizing Wakanda. 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:50.679 Also, she's Ross's ex wife. Very interesting, very very interesting. 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:54.040 Her romantic entanglement was with Nick Fury and were very 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:56.320 interested to see if that was going to come up. 0:22:56.320 --> 0:22:58.320 But it seems that they've decided to do like these 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:03.280 little Cia romance. Terrible hate for both of them, but 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:06.240 you know what, Ross comes out of this looking better 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:06.840 out of the pair. 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:11.560 I will say also in the annals of We Were Right, 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:14.840 it's not quite we were Right, but over the course 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:19.520 of this movie, our theory that the Contessa's plan is 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:22.760 to create the superhero team that follows orders, you know, 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:26.720 is burnished by her actions in this movie. 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:30.160 Yeah, and we you know, we definitely got some we 0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:32.600 were Right stuff that we got into, but that's true. 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:39.800 Also very interesting to see that something I was wary 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:42.199 about that we've talked about is like the Thunderbots has 0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:44.960 to be a villain team. It doesn't really make sense otherwise. 0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:49.800 But the way that they built in I understand the 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:52.639 expanding this Black Panther universe have to fit into the 0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:54.280 rest of the MCU, I think is some of the 0:23:54.320 --> 0:23:56.760 stuff people have been struggling the most with with like 0:23:57.119 --> 0:23:59.879 the folks on Ross and Contessa and I totally agree, 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:04.240 But well, I did really like credit to Ryan and 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:10.600 his co script. She's a villain like no question, absolute villain. 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:13.080 I feel like in the TV shows they were doing 0:24:13.119 --> 0:24:15.640 more of a is she just like a different way 0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:17.560 of running things, But no, she's the director of the 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:19.240 CIA and she sucks. 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:24.960 She's putting together the Avengers team quote unquote Avengers team, 0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:28.159 that is soldiers that are people that will just like 0:24:28.200 --> 0:24:34.080 decapitate people in the street. Ross finds Suri's beads communication 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:37.640 beads under some wreckage at the attack site in Boston, 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:41.800 and he uses them to warn the Queen that the 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:46.040 US government might be preparing to do something to move 0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:50.280 against Wakanda in some sort of way in Talikan. Under 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:54.560 the seat the More takes Shuri to Talikan, and the 0:24:54.600 --> 0:24:56.920 culture and the beauty of the place and the obvious 0:24:57.000 --> 0:25:00.800 strength and the unity of its people just ows her away. 0:25:01.600 --> 0:25:04.720 She asks the King if she. 0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:08.399 Can take read back to Wakanda, and she promises that 0:25:08.600 --> 0:25:13.400 there she's going to advocate strongly on Telecon's behalf anymore 0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:16.880 is like I've got a counter deal. Wakanda allies itself 0:25:17.280 --> 0:25:21.800 with Telecan and side by side we wage war against 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:24.000 the nations of the service. And he makes some good points, 0:25:24.000 --> 0:25:26.600 he said, and defang them so they can never again 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:32.800 threaten either of us an lave and yeah, take our 0:25:32.960 --> 0:25:36.440 take our resources, et colonize. 0:25:35.960 --> 0:25:37.600 Us not necessary. 0:25:38.080 --> 0:25:41.320 She I feel like this is a character be that 0:25:41.400 --> 0:25:45.040 I understand for this movie's sake, But I do feel like, 0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:47.800 sure he would be the one person who would be 0:25:47.880 --> 0:25:51.160 most open to this. But she is quite horrified because 0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:53.480 she's like, well, lots of people didn't do anything bad 0:25:53.600 --> 0:25:55.440 up there, and I don't know if we would want 0:25:55.440 --> 0:25:55.880 to do that. 0:25:56.560 --> 0:25:59.280 I think in Suri's you know listen. 0:26:00.840 --> 0:26:04.560 Allying, I think is a good idea waging war against 0:26:04.560 --> 0:26:07.800 the entire surface world, which is very in line with 0:26:07.960 --> 0:26:10.600 Naymor's character history and a thing that he has done 0:26:10.920 --> 0:26:13.520 time and time and time and time again in the 0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:18.200 comics for various reasons, some of them actually pretty just reasons, 0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:20.880 like I get it would. 0:26:22.320 --> 0:26:23.040 There are other. 0:26:22.880 --> 0:26:25.719 Ways to do it, like I don't need we we like, 0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:28.480 you know, to sure He's credit the idea of just 0:26:28.600 --> 0:26:33.320 jumping straight out to a state of active warfare against 0:26:33.320 --> 0:26:37.280 the entire world probably not a great idea, but also 0:26:37.800 --> 0:26:41.679 you can see how this is going to lead the 0:26:41.760 --> 0:26:47.240 nations of the world to hate superpowered people, in particular 0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:49.639 superpowered people like no More. 0:26:49.560 --> 0:26:51.840 Who by the way are mutants. I was going to say, 0:26:52.119 --> 0:26:54.640 we should say this, we should say this. We've had 0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:56.879 the ab mutation. We've been waiting for someone to be 0:26:56.920 --> 0:27:01.240 cold a mutant name. He does it, says I was 0:27:01.280 --> 0:27:04.240 a mutant. He says I am a mutant. He says 0:27:04.280 --> 0:27:07.320 the word he means in the context of his community. 0:27:08.040 --> 0:27:09.880 Yes, And the truth. 0:27:09.720 --> 0:27:13.439 Is that, you know, Jason, you really smartly brought this 0:27:13.560 --> 0:27:17.399 up in pre pro But like nay More, is not 0:27:17.440 --> 0:27:19.639 the only mutant. He might see himself that way because 0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:22.360 he is a mutant in comparison to his people, who 0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:24.879 he can be above land, he can be underwater. They 0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:29.159 can only exist under the water. But his whole community 0:27:29.560 --> 0:27:36.280 are mutants, and apparently from a vibranium rich soil and 0:27:36.320 --> 0:27:39.439 the plant which allowed them to become mutants. This is 0:27:39.600 --> 0:27:42.080 very interesting, and I think there is a world where 0:27:42.080 --> 0:27:46.040 we see that come into play down the line to 0:27:46.119 --> 0:27:49.000 introduce more mutated characters. We know that we're not going 0:27:49.080 --> 0:27:51.760 to get an inhumans in this world. Miss Marvel kind 0:27:51.800 --> 0:27:53.879 of proved that we're not there yet. This is going 0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:56.639 to be a mutant situation. So I wouldn't be surprised 0:27:56.680 --> 0:27:59.320 to see a version of the plant or a vibranium 0:27:59.359 --> 0:28:01.760 rich soil or that could be turned into some kind 0:28:01.800 --> 0:28:04.359 of myst almost like a tarage of myst I'm weaponized 0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:05.159 to create. 0:28:05.240 --> 0:28:05.440 Moment. 0:28:05.520 --> 0:28:08.719 That's a great point mutants, because I think what we're seeing. 0:28:09.200 --> 0:28:10.960 You know, they didn't kind of spell this out, but 0:28:11.080 --> 0:28:15.919 my guess for why no More has his abilities is 0:28:16.200 --> 0:28:19.240 he had the ex gene just passed to him by 0:28:19.240 --> 0:28:23.320 his parents, right, And something about the active ingredient in 0:28:23.359 --> 0:28:27.200 this plant, this vibranium based plant, awakened. 0:28:26.600 --> 0:28:30.000 That and supercharged his powers. 0:28:30.040 --> 0:28:31.879 All of which is to say, mutants are here, and 0:28:31.920 --> 0:28:35.040 they are here now in vast numbers in the form 0:28:35.119 --> 0:28:36.160 of the Talcanol. 0:28:36.240 --> 0:28:39.120 We're talking about thousands and thousands, tens of thousands of 0:28:39.120 --> 0:28:44.440 people maybe more living in Talakan as a symbol of. 0:28:46.160 --> 0:28:51.520 Naymar's word, right, and you know the generosity of his offer. 0:28:51.680 --> 0:28:54.240 You know, in his view, he gives Shuri a bracelet 0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:57.680 which is woven from the very plant which gave the 0:28:57.760 --> 0:28:59.840 Telecanel their powers belong. 0:28:59.560 --> 0:29:02.200 To his mob us. So this is a very intimate moment. 0:29:02.240 --> 0:29:07.440 And I will say they must have chemistry tested the 0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:14.719 fuck out of Letitia and who plays nay More because 0:29:14.760 --> 0:29:20.520 there is such an unbelievable spark between them. These children 0:29:20.560 --> 0:29:25.560 of these hidden nations, respect respect, but there's like a bond, 0:29:25.680 --> 0:29:29.080 but there's like a slight flirtation, but it's not necessarily romantic. 0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:32.560 It's more of a It's like they spark each other's curiosity. 0:29:32.840 --> 0:29:34.280 And the whole time I was watching it, I was 0:29:34.320 --> 0:29:39.400 just thinking, like, when Sue Storm comes into the MCU, 0:29:40.640 --> 0:29:43.200 is gonna be it's happening. Do it in the first movie. 0:29:43.520 --> 0:29:45.240 It needs to be there because. 0:29:44.920 --> 0:29:45.640 That is good. 0:29:46.120 --> 0:29:49.800 The way that they play with that relationship. His performance 0:29:49.920 --> 0:29:52.240 is the standout for me in this film. 0:29:52.440 --> 0:29:59.160 Is he established at charisma, this this danger, this relatability 0:29:59.440 --> 0:30:05.080 and real older against real arrogance, but based on like legit. Yeah, 0:30:06.600 --> 0:30:09.000 just reason for just reason, but also because he is 0:30:09.560 --> 0:30:13.360 probably the most powerful person on earth apart from as 0:30:13.400 --> 0:30:16.920 he will learn like the Black Panther, you know. So yeah, 0:30:16.960 --> 0:30:18.720 I was just blown away by him and that the 0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:21.880 Talakan stuff was really my my favorite part of this movie. 0:30:22.680 --> 0:30:25.120 And I just kept thinking about him and Letitia were 0:30:25.240 --> 0:30:28.480 so good together in those small moments that they had. 0:30:28.520 --> 0:30:30.840 I was like, I need to see him with Sue Storm. 0:30:30.880 --> 0:30:33.680 I need to see him break up the marriage because 0:30:33.720 --> 0:30:36.240 sure is stronger person than me. I would have been like, yes, 0:30:36.320 --> 0:30:39.000 let's do the war. I'm cool with it, man. 0:30:38.960 --> 0:30:41.880 And we should add unless unless we're unless we find 0:30:41.880 --> 0:30:45.360 out that apocalypse is out here, which might be a case. 0:30:45.440 --> 0:30:48.400 Right, this is the first first mutan. This is the 0:30:48.400 --> 0:30:48.840 first muta. 0:30:48.920 --> 0:30:51.400 And they're not just that they made him five hundred 0:30:51.480 --> 0:30:54.040 years old, so you're talking about a first mutant. It's 0:30:54.080 --> 0:30:55.760 not one hundred years old, not one hundred and twenty 0:30:55.840 --> 0:30:58.080 years old. This is a mutant who has lived in 0:30:58.120 --> 0:31:01.280 what is essentially a secluded secretsist We were right. Secret 0:31:01.280 --> 0:31:06.160 societies are a huge deal going into secret wars, and 0:31:06.200 --> 0:31:08.720 not only that, but he potentially has a more locks 0:31:08.840 --> 0:31:13.720 sque community of secret mutants. So look always saying is 0:31:14.160 --> 0:31:16.360 this is a secret society of mutans that nobody knew 0:31:16.360 --> 0:31:19.560 about even in the Age of the Avengers. So there's 0:31:19.760 --> 0:31:23.080 probably other secret societies of mutants that are hidden in 0:31:23.120 --> 0:31:23.800 this world. 0:31:23.680 --> 0:31:27.560 Well, you know, five hundred years this also in the comics, 0:31:28.360 --> 0:31:33.239 No Moore has this whole history before his appearance, you know, 0:31:33.360 --> 0:31:37.440 fighting the Fantastic Four, you know, in the Silver Age 0:31:37.440 --> 0:31:41.440 of comics, as a fighter in World War Two. All 0:31:41.480 --> 0:31:43.560 of which is to say, is five hundred years gives 0:31:43.600 --> 0:31:48.640 you a lot of back centuries that they could fill 0:31:48.680 --> 0:31:51.600 in in various ways. Is this the first time that 0:31:52.280 --> 0:31:55.800 no More has has interacted with the surface. I'm going 0:31:55.880 --> 0:31:58.040 to guess not. I'm going to guess there's other things 0:31:58.080 --> 0:32:02.520 that we're going to find out that he's been involved in. Later, Nikia, 0:32:02.600 --> 0:32:10.040 having discovered the sight of Nomor's mother's village, finds out 0:32:10.200 --> 0:32:14.480 where Shuri and Reri have been taken, and she gets there, 0:32:15.000 --> 0:32:17.560 goes under the sea to the cavern where they're being held, 0:32:18.080 --> 0:32:20.880 and she goes to break them out. She kills two 0:32:21.000 --> 0:32:23.760 Telecanal guards in the process, and Shuri is like, oh 0:32:23.760 --> 0:32:25.280 my god, we got to save this person's life, and 0:32:25.360 --> 0:32:27.000 Nikkia is like, no, we have to leave right now. 0:32:27.080 --> 0:32:30.200 And Surrei knows that to take the lives of too 0:32:30.240 --> 0:32:35.600 Tealcanil like this means that war between the Talcanil and 0:32:35.640 --> 0:32:37.560 Wakanda is going to happen. 0:32:37.760 --> 0:32:39.840 And in Shuri's defense, I love this. This is a 0:32:39.840 --> 0:32:42.520 true moment of leadership. She tries to use the Kimoo 0:32:42.640 --> 0:32:49.440 beats to save the lives of the Talacanal gods and 0:32:51.200 --> 0:32:53.680 in one of the few mistakes that Nakia makes because 0:32:53.680 --> 0:32:56.160 she's generally like one of the smartest people in Wakanda, 0:32:56.240 --> 0:32:58.880 she doesn't listen to Shuri, and that is like a 0:32:58.920 --> 0:33:02.680 heartbreaking moment because it leads to this kind of huge 0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:04.280 conflict that could have been avoided. 0:33:04.800 --> 0:33:09.440 Now, Wakanda steals itself for the blow. But when the 0:33:09.520 --> 0:33:12.920 More arrives, the most advanced nation of the surface world, 0:33:13.560 --> 0:33:17.840 their defenses are completely worthless against only a handful of 0:33:17.920 --> 0:33:23.880 Nomore's warriors. Tidal waves devastate the capital cility Talkano warriors 0:33:23.960 --> 0:33:27.040 leap from the backs of Wales to lay waste to 0:33:27.120 --> 0:33:30.960 the streets, but all of this is a distraction to 0:33:31.120 --> 0:33:35.360 allow no More to strike at Queen Ramonda. 0:33:36.080 --> 0:33:36.800 She gives her. 0:33:36.720 --> 0:33:43.560 Life to save Rear and it's a heartbreaking moment. Shuri 0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:47.720 finds her mother now passed like this has just happened 0:33:47.760 --> 0:33:51.160 moments before, and the More tells Shuri more than you're dead, 0:33:52.040 --> 0:33:55.640 I'll be back in a week, your queen. Now it's 0:33:55.720 --> 0:34:00.680 your decision about how to lead the nation. Next, I'll 0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:03.520 be back with your decision about whether you're going to 0:34:03.560 --> 0:34:07.040 a lie with my people. And if the answer is no, 0:34:08.800 --> 0:34:10.640 just so you know, I'm gonna when I come back 0:34:10.680 --> 0:34:12.080 in a week, it's going to be at the head 0:34:12.080 --> 0:34:15.320 of my entire army, not just a handful of my warriors. 0:34:16.040 --> 0:34:19.680 As Queen Sure, he just wants vengeance. We heard it, 0:34:19.800 --> 0:34:21.799 you know earlier in the movie that she wanted the 0:34:21.840 --> 0:34:25.840 world to burn because of her feelings of the surrounding 0:34:25.880 --> 0:34:29.279 the death of Chachala, and now this has sharpened those 0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:33.560 feelings to a really keen, killing and dangerous edge. Imbaku 0:34:33.800 --> 0:34:36.320 tries to talk her out of it, you know, the 0:34:36.560 --> 0:34:41.520 Wandan's He notes that the Talcan will consider name more 0:34:41.560 --> 0:34:45.439 their god. If you kill their god, the war will 0:34:45.480 --> 0:34:49.600 never end. The war will be existential. It will be 0:34:49.760 --> 0:34:52.800 my children, my children's children. It will go on and 0:34:53.000 --> 0:34:55.799 it will go on and on and on until. 0:34:55.560 --> 0:34:59.080 One of our nation's perishes. And Sure is like that's. 0:34:58.920 --> 0:35:03.160 Fine, and also just want to shout out Winston Duke 0:35:03.520 --> 0:35:07.719 so good and Barkoo's still a standout, there's a great standard. 0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:11.000 One of the best moments, like the biggest laugh moments 0:35:11.000 --> 0:35:13.560 in this really somber movie, is like he walks into 0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:14.759 the council eating. 0:35:14.880 --> 0:35:16.920 Cara and calls a. 0:35:16.920 --> 0:35:19.799 Koye a bald headed demon, and it is like our 0:35:19.800 --> 0:35:22.719 whole cinema just lost its ship, like I want to 0:35:22.760 --> 0:35:24.960 see more in Baku. I love him. I love that 0:35:25.040 --> 0:35:29.880 recontextualization of the character. Winston Duke, you are king. Thank you. 0:35:30.000 --> 0:35:31.759 And without Winston Duke, I don't know if we would 0:35:31.760 --> 0:35:35.839 have got like thick name more, you know, I feel like, yeah, 0:35:35.920 --> 0:35:41.440 I feel like we would have got like this. Winston 0:35:41.600 --> 0:35:45.640 changed the the idea of like what a Marvel character 0:35:45.680 --> 0:35:48.160 can look like. And you know, people love him for it, 0:35:48.200 --> 0:35:51.360 and and he's delightful and I'm just so happy that 0:35:51.360 --> 0:35:54.319 that Nomore is more in that mold of like a 0:35:55.280 --> 0:35:58.799 just like a chunky, strong guy. We need more of them. 0:36:00.239 --> 0:36:01.239 I absolutely love it. 0:36:02.960 --> 0:36:08.440 Using the bracelet that the More gave her, she successfully synthesizes, 0:36:09.680 --> 0:36:12.920 you know, a kind of heart shapter based on the 0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:16.919 talcanal plant, which is a biochemical twin of the heart 0:36:16.960 --> 0:36:22.000 shaped her. She takes that potion herself and goes to 0:36:22.080 --> 0:36:24.840 visit the Ancestral Plane, but it's not the ancestral plane. 0:36:24.880 --> 0:36:29.320 She finds herself in the flooded throne room, a version, 0:36:29.840 --> 0:36:33.320 you know, the incestral plane version of that very interesting 0:36:34.360 --> 0:36:36.239 in Capital City, and she wakes up. 0:36:36.200 --> 0:36:42.160 Underwater after using the plant. I think that we cannot underestimate. 0:36:42.880 --> 0:36:44.000 That's a great point, the. 0:36:43.880 --> 0:36:48.759 Importance of this essentially being a combined version of the 0:36:48.800 --> 0:36:51.920 heart shape up and whatever the plant of the talcanal is. 0:36:52.000 --> 0:36:55.440 I'm I'm very interested to see where that leads. 0:36:56.320 --> 0:37:01.040 So she finds herself in the throne room. She's behind 0:37:01.080 --> 0:37:04.200 the throne, someone sitting in it. She walks to the 0:37:04.239 --> 0:37:06.279 front of it and we're thinking it's going to be 0:37:06.680 --> 0:37:08.920 the Queen, or it's going to be T'Challa. 0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:10.360 It's Killmonger. 0:37:10.560 --> 0:37:14.799 Oh my cinema just absolutely lost its mind last night, 0:37:15.000 --> 0:37:18.600 like screaming. That was like, that's the big you know, 0:37:18.680 --> 0:37:20.600 the Spider Man. There was so many of those moments. 0:37:20.680 --> 0:37:22.520 This is that moment where people just lost their mind. 0:37:22.560 --> 0:37:22.880 Michael B. 0:37:22.960 --> 0:37:25.960 Jordan delivering as always. And I love the reasoning of 0:37:26.040 --> 0:37:26.719 him being there. 0:37:27.200 --> 0:37:31.640 Yeah, and Killmonger knows that surely wanted to see him. 0:37:31.719 --> 0:37:32.480 That's why he's there. 0:37:32.560 --> 0:37:38.000 She chose she wanted, and he knows it's because he 0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:42.920 is the one person who will agree with what she 0:37:43.160 --> 0:37:46.360 wants to do next, which is wipe out the telecanil. 0:37:46.760 --> 0:37:51.560 No more must die. And when she wakes up, Nokia's like, 0:37:51.960 --> 0:37:53.960 where'd you go? Who'd you see would you talk you know, 0:37:54.000 --> 0:37:56.360 what was the ancestral plane, Like who'd you talk to? 0:37:56.480 --> 0:37:58.520 And she's like, I'm not talking about it. 0:37:58.600 --> 0:38:01.360 She's like I failed, and then she just like smashes 0:38:01.480 --> 0:38:04.040 up the lab and obviously has super strength, so it's like, 0:38:04.320 --> 0:38:06.560 think it worked, babe, but it worked. 0:38:07.400 --> 0:38:11.080 Valentina breaks into Everett Ross's house to arrest him. She 0:38:11.680 --> 0:38:14.080 had the beads bugged from the very beginning. She heard 0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:17.359 everything Ross has told the Wakandans, and Ross is like, yeah, 0:38:17.360 --> 0:38:19.520 well the Wahannahs are awesome and they saved my life 0:38:19.760 --> 0:38:23.479 so and they're right, so I guess I'm going to jail. 0:38:23.960 --> 0:38:27.120 Ross says it would be terrible to imagine what the 0:38:27.200 --> 0:38:30.320 United States, what other countries would do, but specifically the 0:38:30.400 --> 0:38:34.520 United States would do if it controlled vibranium all by itself. 0:38:34.800 --> 0:38:36.840 And the Contessa is like, well, you're going to prison 0:38:36.840 --> 0:38:38.480 for us of your life. And by the way, I 0:38:38.840 --> 0:38:42.839 dream of a day when we control vibranium. 0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:47.520 That's when you do whatever we will want. She's obsessed 0:38:47.560 --> 0:38:52.960 with power, she's obsessed with owning this resource, with colonizing Wakanda, 0:38:53.040 --> 0:38:56.319 and with using it for her own nefarious. 0:38:55.560 --> 0:39:00.839 Means, and by the way a very a a very 0:39:01.040 --> 0:39:06.800 juicy and vibrant plot from various Marvel comics throughout the years, 0:39:06.880 --> 0:39:11.680 like the world is greedy for the resources. 0:39:11.040 --> 0:39:12.520 That will go and I think as well, this is 0:39:12.800 --> 0:39:15.240 I'm not a huge fan of Everett Ross and the MCU, 0:39:15.280 --> 0:39:18.359 but I do think this scene is the closest we've 0:39:18.400 --> 0:39:21.200 gotten to the Christopher Priest stuff that we talk about 0:39:21.200 --> 0:39:25.799 in the omnibus y, where it's about Ross understanding who 0:39:25.800 --> 0:39:28.640 the Wakandans are, his awakening to them, and the sacrifice 0:39:28.680 --> 0:39:32.040 that he will make at because he realizes what the 0:39:32.120 --> 0:39:34.640 right thing to do is. Most of I feel like 0:39:34.680 --> 0:39:36.960 that has been mostly a misunderstanding of his character in 0:39:36.960 --> 0:39:39.120 the MCU, but this is the closest I feel like 0:39:39.160 --> 0:39:39.680 that we get. 0:39:39.680 --> 0:39:44.200 In this moment, Surrey, now clad as the Black Panther, 0:39:44.320 --> 0:39:47.200 leads her people to war, and her plan is to 0:39:47.280 --> 0:39:50.200 take Rerea's detector out to see use it as bait 0:39:50.280 --> 0:39:54.000 to lure the Talcanill to attack, and then they'll trap 0:39:54.080 --> 0:39:56.920 me more inside like a flying microwave and they will 0:39:57.000 --> 0:40:00.200 dry his ass out. Here's where I just want to 0:40:00.200 --> 0:40:04.160 put a pin in this and discuss it so we 0:40:04.520 --> 0:40:09.560 you know, again, I think Wakanda needs better leadership at 0:40:09.600 --> 0:40:11.239 I think I think some of the I think some 0:40:11.280 --> 0:40:16.359 of the decision making process is not good. And I 0:40:16.400 --> 0:40:20.000 would like to highlight that Rear's plan is to fight 0:40:20.080 --> 0:40:21.320 the fish people on water. 0:40:21.640 --> 0:40:24.399 They could have just they could have literally just fought 0:40:24.480 --> 0:40:28.560 him on a different bit of land that wasn't Wakanda, Like, Yeah, 0:40:28.680 --> 0:40:31.399 you didn't need to fight him on water where all 0:40:31.440 --> 0:40:36.040 his people are coming. They got crazy underwater technology. They 0:40:36.040 --> 0:40:38.279 have these un Something that is really cool that this 0:40:38.320 --> 0:40:41.799 movie introduces and I think is very unique, is these 0:40:42.000 --> 0:40:45.560 water bombs that kind of makes there. It's really cool. 0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:48.160 I will say, if you enjoy the more stuff here, 0:40:48.200 --> 0:40:50.839 you enjoy the taler Canal, please go and watch James 0:40:50.880 --> 0:40:53.400 Wan's aqual Man, because I do feel like that movie. 0:40:53.560 --> 0:40:55.719 This movie would not exist without that, and a lot 0:40:55.719 --> 0:40:58.279 of the stuff they do in that movie is definitely influential. 0:40:58.440 --> 0:41:03.279 But I really felt like the idea of this talacanil 0:41:03.360 --> 0:41:06.440 technology and the bombs and everything is very unique and 0:41:06.560 --> 0:41:08.920 very visually beautiful. But why did she want to fight 0:41:09.000 --> 0:41:09.720 him at the seat? 0:41:09.920 --> 0:41:12.480 I guess I would say, I get that you had 0:41:12.480 --> 0:41:14.200 to lure him, but you know what, I am on 0:41:14.239 --> 0:41:15.160 the seat I think. 0:41:15.000 --> 0:41:17.080 The idea of and this is something I would have 0:41:17.120 --> 0:41:19.239 liked to see expanded a little bit, but it leans 0:41:19.239 --> 0:41:23.160 into Sherry's comic book canon, especially the run when she 0:41:23.239 --> 0:41:28.120 becomes Black Panther, you know, the reginal Hydelan run. She 0:41:28.320 --> 0:41:30.880 is at this point not making sensible decisions. 0:41:31.080 --> 0:41:34.160 She is she's absolutely she's very revenge. 0:41:34.239 --> 0:41:37.920 She's consumed with it, and that leads her to make 0:41:37.960 --> 0:41:41.960 this very silly decision that does kind of end up 0:41:42.000 --> 0:41:43.480 working out, but it works. 0:41:43.719 --> 0:41:46.680 Not a great idea, well, well, it kind of works, 0:41:46.719 --> 0:41:50.000 I would add. So there's a big battle, right they 0:41:50.040 --> 0:41:53.799 go out to see the talcanill are are alerted to 0:41:54.160 --> 0:41:57.359 the presence of this vibrium detector in the water. News 0:41:57.400 --> 0:42:00.800 gets to no More. He leads his forces against them. 0:42:01.120 --> 0:42:03.240 Re Re debuts the iron Heart mark too. 0:42:03.200 --> 0:42:06.840 Which she was building in a montage in wac. 0:42:06.880 --> 0:42:10.520 Powerful looks super coolium yeap. 0:42:10.440 --> 0:42:13.319 Probably made a vibranium Okoya and Neka fight in two 0:42:13.440 --> 0:42:17.240 brand new Shuri designed pieces of Wakandan battle armor, also 0:42:17.360 --> 0:42:21.560 clearly like vibranium tech very powerful. Sure, he gets nay 0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:25.960 More in the microwave and the two get separated from 0:42:26.000 --> 0:42:31.160 the main fight where Akoye Ao Neka Baku and the 0:42:31.200 --> 0:42:33.600 rest of the Wakandans are at sea, trapped on their 0:42:33.600 --> 0:42:36.520 ship fighting off the tylecanil. And I should add that, 0:42:36.719 --> 0:42:40.040 you know though the plan again the plan, Surei's plant 0:42:40.120 --> 0:42:43.360 kind of works. What like eight hundred Wakandans die in 0:42:43.400 --> 0:42:46.839 this I was gonna say, they get they get wiped out, 0:42:46.880 --> 0:42:47.600 there's gonna end. 0:42:47.640 --> 0:42:50.000 There's like twelve condos. I was gonna say, there's like 0:42:50.040 --> 0:42:53.080 twelve people who say Wakanda forever. And I'm like, babe, 0:42:53.120 --> 0:42:54.440 you could have avoided all. 0:42:54.239 --> 0:42:55.920 Of eight hundred people. 0:42:56.040 --> 0:42:57.719 So I know you could have made more of that. 0:42:57.840 --> 0:43:03.839 Amah for like the Midnight eight you know, like is 0:43:03.880 --> 0:43:04.759 not the best plan. 0:43:05.120 --> 0:43:10.480 So Shuri's microwave plane crashes in the desert because more, 0:43:10.600 --> 0:43:13.760 even in a weakened state, is extremely powerful. 0:43:13.320 --> 0:43:15.120 And he uses he has a he has a spear 0:43:15.160 --> 0:43:19.320 made of raw vibranium processed and he uses it to 0:43:19.360 --> 0:43:20.080 crash the plane. 0:43:20.680 --> 0:43:23.879 And he's potentially again like as strong as the Hulk 0:43:24.000 --> 0:43:29.360 in the water, probably stronger, you know, I guess the 0:43:29.440 --> 0:43:31.839 Hulk theoretically you get as strong as he wants, the 0:43:31.840 --> 0:43:34.920 angrier he gets. But like Hulk levels class one hundred 0:43:34.960 --> 0:43:35.759 level strength. 0:43:35.520 --> 0:43:38.719 And they mentioned this very briefly, but I think it's 0:43:38.760 --> 0:43:42.360 really interesting. Nay More is covered in vibranium. They always 0:43:42.400 --> 0:43:46.120 say that everything that he wears, his his his jewels, 0:43:46.239 --> 0:43:50.440 his his his kind of costume, whatever it is, that's 0:43:50.760 --> 0:43:55.520 all covered in vibranium. So he has a similar energy 0:43:56.320 --> 0:44:01.399 signature power kind of vibe to a black panther who 0:44:01.400 --> 0:44:02.680 is wearing a vibranium suit. 0:44:03.400 --> 0:44:05.960 So they fight in the desert, and it is a brutal, 0:44:06.000 --> 0:44:09.560 brutal fight, but even a dried out, partially weakened no 0:44:09.640 --> 0:44:15.200 More is incredibly powerful, more powerful than the black panther. 0:44:15.719 --> 0:44:19.600 He impales her on his vibranium spear and then goes 0:44:19.640 --> 0:44:22.680 to stagger back to see sure he frees herself, and 0:44:22.719 --> 0:44:23.759 then to square off again. 0:44:23.840 --> 0:44:25.080 We get to fucking we. 0:44:25.120 --> 0:44:30.759 Get saying imperious Rex in his in his language, and 0:44:31.120 --> 0:44:32.680 it was like, yeah. 0:44:32.560 --> 0:44:36.359 That's a famous comic cry. That's it's it's iconic because 0:44:36.360 --> 0:44:38.719 everyone's like, what does that even mean? And what I 0:44:38.960 --> 0:44:42.640 only really like got into it recently. But this shows 0:44:42.719 --> 0:44:46.120 the absolute power of this movie, which is this word, 0:44:46.560 --> 0:44:49.560 these combination of words that's so comic, booky and so poppy. 0:44:50.000 --> 0:44:54.959 When Tenoch says it in the Talcanil language and looks 0:44:55.400 --> 0:44:59.160 at kind of looks towards the screen, it feels just 0:44:59.280 --> 0:45:03.279 like fuck, like we're seeing something unbelievable here. 0:45:04.320 --> 0:45:08.279 It was so so cool Suri. Then you think they're 0:45:08.280 --> 0:45:11.720 going to fight again. But then Shuri crosses his arms, 0:45:11.760 --> 0:45:14.719 says Wakanda forever, and she triggers the blasters of her 0:45:14.800 --> 0:45:17.040 crast ship like the Thrusters, and just. 0:45:17.120 --> 0:45:19.600 Bakes anymore and very brutal. 0:45:20.640 --> 0:45:23.120 Some baked fish here, maybe with a little bread crumb 0:45:23.200 --> 0:45:26.239 on top, it would be delicious. Suri then stands over 0:45:26.320 --> 0:45:29.919 no more he is he could die potentially right now, 0:45:30.680 --> 0:45:33.200 just as Kill Munger, just you know the moment that 0:45:33.280 --> 0:45:36.600 Kill Munger described in her vision in the Ancestral Plane. 0:45:36.760 --> 0:45:39.759 It's here now. Suri then reflects on everything that she 0:45:39.840 --> 0:45:45.840 has lost, and she hears the Queen telling her that 0:45:45.960 --> 0:45:48.880 now she needs to show no more who she is. 0:45:48.960 --> 0:45:51.320 And this is a huge deal because Suri it doesn't 0:45:51.320 --> 0:45:54.960 believe the Ancestral Plane exists. She barely believes that the 0:45:55.080 --> 0:45:57.239 kill Manga thing was real. She just thinks it's something 0:45:57.280 --> 0:46:01.600 she needed to see. And we see Ramonda in the 0:46:01.640 --> 0:46:05.200 traditional ancestral plane talking to Shuri saying show him who 0:46:05.200 --> 0:46:05.560 you are. 0:46:07.800 --> 0:46:12.080 She stands over him and she makes him this offer. 0:46:12.880 --> 0:46:19.640 She will as queen ally Wakanda with the telecan Ill. 0:46:20.400 --> 0:46:25.240 The Wakandans will protect the seas for the Teleconill protect 0:46:25.239 --> 0:46:30.279 the surface you know around where telecan is well. Keep 0:46:30.280 --> 0:46:35.960 their secrets, keep their secrets. But no More must yield, 0:46:36.960 --> 0:46:41.320 promise to stop pursuing rere and promise to not wage 0:46:41.360 --> 0:46:47.080 war against the surface world. Nomour yields and the Talcaneal 0:46:47.239 --> 0:46:47.839 return home. 0:46:47.920 --> 0:46:49.680 Yeah, there's this really, this is one of my most 0:46:49.760 --> 0:46:54.800 powerful like chills moments. They fly down the Wakanda's is 0:46:54.800 --> 0:46:57.080 about to be killed. There's on like fourteen of them left, 0:46:57.520 --> 0:47:02.080 and no More and Shuri come down on this plane 0:47:02.120 --> 0:47:07.480 together and they sort of you know, they say dead 0:47:07.680 --> 0:47:11.560 and they say like Talacanill rise Wakanda forever and Talacanill 0:47:11.560 --> 0:47:14.120 go home. This shows really, I have to say, on 0:47:14.160 --> 0:47:17.680 your point, the monarchy of Wakanda has a problem. Yeah, 0:47:17.880 --> 0:47:20.640 because the real truth is sure we could have avoided 0:47:20.680 --> 0:47:23.320 that eight hundred deaths by just having a little combo 0:47:23.480 --> 0:47:27.120 making this offer before something I feel like, but I 0:47:27.239 --> 0:47:30.319 understand that Namo needed to see the strength of the 0:47:30.360 --> 0:47:36.000 black understand that they were strength all but still rip 0:47:36.640 --> 0:47:37.279 can say this. 0:47:38.200 --> 0:47:40.040 It will be a problem going forward. 0:47:40.480 --> 0:47:45.840 There will be hard line factions, yes, of both the 0:47:45.960 --> 0:47:48.960 Talcanill and the Wakandons, who go that's it. 0:47:49.120 --> 0:47:50.680 No, this is not over. 0:47:51.080 --> 0:47:54.560 Certainly the Wacanons are going to say we some Wakandans 0:47:54.560 --> 0:47:56.400 are going to say, we lost how many soldiers and 0:47:56.440 --> 0:47:57.400 now we just let it go. 0:47:58.440 --> 0:47:58.920 Pursue this. 0:47:59.160 --> 0:48:01.839 They attacked our cab, we lost the queen, and now 0:48:01.840 --> 0:48:04.200 eight hundred soldiers dead. No, we're pursuing this to the end. 0:48:04.280 --> 0:48:07.680 So this is gonna be an issue going forward. Wakanda rebuilds, 0:48:08.000 --> 0:48:10.160 re re returns to mit, but the iron Heart Armor 0:48:10.200 --> 0:48:11.920 has to say, Wakanda, that's pretty wise. 0:48:12.840 --> 0:48:14.240 Nakia returns to Haiti. 0:48:14.640 --> 0:48:19.240 In Talakan, Nomura is giving Nay more shit for kneeling 0:48:19.239 --> 0:48:21.200 to the Wakandans, and he's like, no, no, trust me. 0:48:21.239 --> 0:48:23.840 This is fucking great because here's why we're allied with 0:48:23.880 --> 0:48:26.680 the strongest nation of the surface world by far, and 0:48:27.360 --> 0:48:30.120 one day the rest of the surface world is gonna attack. 0:48:30.120 --> 0:48:35.319 Wakanda isolate. They have no we're our only friend, and 0:48:35.440 --> 0:48:38.880 they will wage war against Wakanda and when that happens, 0:48:39.320 --> 0:48:42.839 Wakanda and Talikan together will defeat the surface world. 0:48:43.000 --> 0:48:43.959 Love that great plan. 0:48:44.920 --> 0:48:48.319 Suri blows off her official coronation at Warrior Falls to 0:48:48.360 --> 0:48:51.120 go to Haiti, and there she burns her funeral garb, 0:48:51.360 --> 0:48:54.200 just as her mother wanted her to. In America, a 0:48:54.280 --> 0:48:57.000 Koya Freeze ever ross from custody. He is coming back 0:48:57.040 --> 0:49:01.880 to Wakanda with everyone, and in the sting in Haiti, 0:49:02.120 --> 0:49:05.920 Suri burns her funeral garb and Nikia introduces her to 0:49:06.080 --> 0:49:10.840 her son to 'challa's son, Prince T'Challa, who looks to 0:49:10.880 --> 0:49:15.720 be about six years old. What a movie Your quick thoughts? 0:49:15.960 --> 0:49:22.720 Yeah, very emotional, beautiful cinematography, great performances. My biggest takeaway 0:49:23.000 --> 0:49:28.080 is No More. I absolutely adored the Talakanal stuff. I 0:49:28.160 --> 0:49:30.120 really want to know more about No More. I think 0:49:30.160 --> 0:49:33.440 it's set him up as a true you know, we 0:49:33.560 --> 0:49:36.200 talked about this before, but kill Monger is right with 0:49:36.360 --> 0:49:39.520 such a huge thing coming off Black Panther. I feel 0:49:39.560 --> 0:49:43.680 like with No More, it's like five thousand times stronger argument, 0:49:43.760 --> 0:49:46.080 and I'm really I wish there'd been a little bit 0:49:46.080 --> 0:49:48.399 more and No More. I think she's incredible, also very 0:49:48.400 --> 0:49:51.520 ironic because a lot of the inspiration here was probably 0:49:51.560 --> 0:49:54.680 taken from Namora Number one, the original introduction of that 0:49:54.760 --> 0:49:57.960 character from the Golden Age setting at a Mayan underground 0:49:58.040 --> 0:50:02.960 secret society they worship of God Couko Khan, you know, 0:50:03.000 --> 0:50:04.719 so a lot of inspiration was taken from that. I'd 0:50:04.760 --> 0:50:06.520 like to see more of No More, No More, but 0:50:06.560 --> 0:50:09.080 I like that conflict they set up between the two 0:50:09.080 --> 0:50:11.000 of them, where he might be he might end up 0:50:11.000 --> 0:50:12.759 as more of the Charles and she ends up as 0:50:12.760 --> 0:50:15.879 more of the Magneto. Also, we'll say, look, I love 0:50:15.920 --> 0:50:19.680 the X Men. Yeah, but I feel like currently No 0:50:19.800 --> 0:50:23.799 More is really gonna be that Magnio staff figure for 0:50:23.880 --> 0:50:28.360 the MCU going forward. He has that direct action. The 0:50:28.480 --> 0:50:33.359 politics or that are right, but the the the way 0:50:33.400 --> 0:50:34.920 that he will approach it is not going to make 0:50:34.960 --> 0:50:39.120 everyone happy. Yeah, very emotional, great performance, is beautiful cinematography, 0:50:39.160 --> 0:50:41.560 and No More. I love you. I'm so excited to 0:50:41.560 --> 0:50:42.000 see more. 0:50:42.400 --> 0:50:42.919 I can't. 0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:45.839 I'm very very excited for more and No More up 0:50:45.880 --> 0:50:50.919 next to the Omnibus, Crooked Coffee is all about making 0:50:50.920 --> 0:50:54.600 your life a little less chaotic. So we just launched 0:50:54.600 --> 0:50:57.720 three limited editional holiday boxes to make gift giving easy. 0:50:58.320 --> 0:51:03.799 What's in each box? 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Welcome to another chapter 0:54:24.680 --> 0:54:27.800 in the Omibus where lower analysis and understanding come together. 0:54:27.920 --> 0:54:31.520 This week Afrofuturism and the Black Panther. The Black Panther 0:54:31.680 --> 0:54:36.120 and Wakanda are an early example of afrofuturism, which is 0:54:36.400 --> 0:54:39.360 a term coined by cultural critic Mark Derry in his 0:54:39.440 --> 0:54:42.720 nineteen ninety three Say Black to the Future, which explored 0:54:42.760 --> 0:54:46.279 the paucity of black creators in sci fi. Filmmaker and 0:54:46.400 --> 0:54:50.400 scholar Yatasha L. Womack, in her book Afrofuturism The World 0:54:50.400 --> 0:54:53.520 of Black Sci Fi and Fantasy Culture, defines the movement 0:54:53.640 --> 0:54:57.400 as quote both an artistic aesthetic and a framework for 0:54:57.480 --> 0:55:01.279 critical theory. That quote come by elements of science fiction, 0:55:01.480 --> 0:55:07.000 historical fiction, speculative fiction, fantasy, afrocentricity, and magic realism with 0:55:07.120 --> 0:55:13.600 non Western beliefs. Some other examples of Afrofuturism that you 0:55:13.680 --> 0:55:16.760 might be aware of, or the works of Jean Michel Bosquiat, 0:55:17.440 --> 0:55:22.600 the Jimmy Hendricks Experience, Parliament, Funkadelics kind of like ufo 0:55:23.280 --> 0:55:27.360 esthetic and lore, the works of Octavia Butler, and the 0:55:27.400 --> 0:55:33.080 late rapper MF. Doom Wakanda is the most technologically advanced 0:55:33.120 --> 0:55:38.520 superpower on Earth in the MCU, a utopia melding supercomputers, 0:55:39.120 --> 0:55:46.680 incredible weapons, spaceships with fictional African traditions, the Rasia of 0:55:46.719 --> 0:55:50.040 the heart shaped Herb, Warrior falls, and so on. At 0:55:50.080 --> 0:55:54.080 a time when racial caricaturing of non white characters was commonplace, 0:55:54.120 --> 0:55:59.480 see any of Marvel comics or any comics at all. 0:55:59.600 --> 0:56:05.399 DC Anybody's nineteen sixties depiction of Asian characters and any 0:56:05.480 --> 0:56:09.640 character of color. Really, kirbyan Lee avoided such pitfalls with 0:56:10.440 --> 0:56:15.640 the creation of Ch'chala without a doubt, Loyola professor Dilifu 0:56:15.719 --> 0:56:18.280 Nama writes in his book Super Black American pop Culture 0:56:18.280 --> 0:56:23.080 and Black Superheroes, The Black Panther and Wakanda offered unprecedented 0:56:23.120 --> 0:56:28.320 and upbeat images of Africa and African people. When Reid Richard's, 0:56:28.360 --> 0:56:31.960 among course the most very brilliant minds in the Marvel Universe, 0:56:32.000 --> 0:56:35.160 first count encounters Wakandan technology. 0:56:35.640 --> 0:56:37.480 He's blown away. 0:56:38.760 --> 0:56:40.880 Quote he took a metal device from inside his toga, 0:56:41.800 --> 0:56:44.960 Reid says in Fantastic four number fifty two. But it's 0:56:45.000 --> 0:56:48.520 so small. Can he actually transmit a message halfway around 0:56:48.560 --> 0:56:52.160 the globe with that? As radical as the intersection of 0:56:52.160 --> 0:56:56.120 technology and blackness is the presentation of Wakanda as a 0:56:56.200 --> 0:57:00.520 nation which has time and again successfully defended itself from 0:57:00.560 --> 0:57:05.120 European invasion and colonization. Wakana compels respect from the world's 0:57:05.160 --> 0:57:09.520 great nations, its superheroes, and it's supervillains. The nation has 0:57:09.560 --> 0:57:13.520 no history of colonial trauma to transcend Wacana's existence as 0:57:13.640 --> 0:57:18.720 a free, self sufficient geopolitical power is a powerful critique 0:57:18.720 --> 0:57:23.680 of colonialism and the economic exploitation of Africa. The introduction 0:57:23.760 --> 0:57:27.000 of Ulysses Claw sharpens that point of Belgian mercenary, son 0:57:27.040 --> 0:57:30.280 of a Nazi war criminal, Claw, the Black Panther's nemesis, 0:57:30.680 --> 0:57:34.760 is obsessed with obtaining Wakana's vibranium to Chile's origin story 0:57:34.840 --> 0:57:37.720 rising from the title of Black Panther after beating back 0:57:37.760 --> 0:57:42.560 clause murderous assault on his nation, is as NAMA Rights quote, 0:57:42.600 --> 0:57:46.520 the idealized composite of Third world black revolutionaries and the 0:57:46.560 --> 0:57:49.760 anti colonialist movement of the nineteen fifties that they represented. 0:57:50.320 --> 0:57:53.000 The first Black Panther film calls on numerous elements from 0:57:53.000 --> 0:57:57.280 T'Challa's comics canon, the most notable being for Me Panther's 0:57:57.360 --> 0:58:00.600 Rage and the Client. The former is a storyline which 0:58:00.680 --> 0:58:03.360 is an epic storyline written by Don McGregor with art 0:58:03.400 --> 0:58:06.959 by Rick Buckler, Billy Graham, and Gil Kine, which played 0:58:06.960 --> 0:58:09.960 out in the pages of Black Panthers solo book, then 0:58:10.000 --> 0:58:13.960 embarrassing titled Jungle Action from September nineteen seventy three to 0:58:14.080 --> 0:58:17.480 November nineteen seventy five. Rosie tell us more about Bill Graham. 0:58:17.840 --> 0:58:20.840 Yeah, Panther's Rage is a really monumental book, not just 0:58:20.840 --> 0:58:23.440 because it's widely seen as one of the best arcs 0:58:23.440 --> 0:58:28.120 of Black Panther, but also it was drawn predominantly by 0:58:28.200 --> 0:58:33.400 Billy Graham, who is arguably the first black creator who 0:58:33.440 --> 0:58:36.640 was hired by the Big Two. The book also had 0:58:36.640 --> 0:58:40.840 a black uncredited assistant on it, Arvil Jones, and Billy 0:58:40.880 --> 0:58:43.600 Graham had already done work at Marvel because he had 0:58:43.680 --> 0:58:47.080 inked the first ever issue of Luke k Chero for 0:58:47.160 --> 0:58:51.040 Hire in nineteen seventy two and continued to ink or 0:58:51.080 --> 0:58:54.440 pencil that book for its first sixteen issues. One of 0:58:54.480 --> 0:58:56.880 the things that's most memorable about Billy's art on Panthers 0:58:56.960 --> 0:59:00.320 Rage are these unbelievable title pages. He would draw, these 0:59:00.440 --> 0:59:04.880 huge names written out of rock, and Billy has long 0:59:04.920 --> 0:59:08.640 been an undercredited part of Marvel history. So it's really 0:59:08.680 --> 0:59:13.000 wonderful to see people revisit Panther's Rage and learn about 0:59:13.000 --> 0:59:15.400 the impact that Billy and his art had on Black 0:59:15.440 --> 0:59:18.360 Panther and this landmark arc. 0:59:20.760 --> 0:59:24.080 The Client is an art written by Christopher Priest with 0:59:24.240 --> 0:59:26.640 art by Mark to Share It not the baseball player 0:59:27.520 --> 0:59:31.080 part of a character redefining run on the Black Panther 0:59:31.240 --> 0:59:33.680 solo title, which was first published in the late nineties 0:59:33.680 --> 0:59:41.840 and is just tremendously influential, Like unbelievably influential in Panther's Rage, T'Challa, 0:59:41.920 --> 0:59:45.280 back in Wakanda after many years in the States, is 0:59:45.760 --> 0:59:49.480 struggling to adapt to a nation that has kind of 0:59:49.680 --> 0:59:53.200 been is in the midst of kind of coming apart 0:59:53.320 --> 0:59:55.960 because of pallace intrigue, and he's trying to balance his 0:59:56.040 --> 1:00:00.480 love life and also his responsibilities as a leader. And 1:00:00.560 --> 1:00:04.040 he faces his most dangerous nemesis yet, a Condon named 1:00:04.560 --> 1:00:07.480 and Jadaka who spent time in America changed his name 1:00:07.520 --> 1:00:12.800 to Eric Kilmonger. Panthers Rage was groundbreaking comic storytelling. The 1:00:12.840 --> 1:00:16.360 story was set completely in Africa, in Wakana, far from 1:00:16.520 --> 1:00:19.080 the urban settings in which most you know, kind of 1:00:19.120 --> 1:00:23.960 mainstream media stories set in a black context were told, 1:00:25.640 --> 1:00:28.720 and it was quote at a time when strident expressions 1:00:28.720 --> 1:00:31.480 of black cultural pride were cresting in the United States. 1:00:31.560 --> 1:00:34.400 Right It's Nama and super Black. The story unfolds over 1:00:34.440 --> 1:00:39.640 thirteen issues, which was this was not done back then. 1:00:39.920 --> 1:00:43.000 This was not really done in comics. The thirteen issue story, 1:00:43.080 --> 1:00:46.480 like arc didn't really happen back then when it was 1:00:46.600 --> 1:00:50.480 hard to find comics, like you didn't know most people 1:00:50.520 --> 1:00:53.320 got them off the rack. There were not that many 1:00:53.360 --> 1:00:57.920 comics stores, and so to do a thirteen issue arc 1:00:58.120 --> 1:01:03.320 was really it was an investment, and it was and 1:01:03.360 --> 1:01:05.600 it was It's cool that it happened, but it was 1:01:05.640 --> 1:01:07.720 really your trusting people are going to be able to 1:01:07.760 --> 1:01:12.800 find these comics and follow the story. It has been 1:01:12.840 --> 1:01:16.880 described as Marvel's first graphic novel. The Crease Skrull War, 1:01:16.960 --> 1:01:19.560 for instance, which was published in nineteen seventy one seventy two, 1:01:19.640 --> 1:01:22.040 was told over eight issues in the pages of The Avengers. 1:01:22.640 --> 1:01:26.800 Panthers were aged features, with one exception, the villain Venom 1:01:26.880 --> 1:01:29.840 and All Black cast, a first from mainstream comics. In 1:01:29.920 --> 1:01:34.400 their first confrontation, Kilmunger tosses the Black Panther over Warrior falls, 1:01:34.440 --> 1:01:37.800 declaring your line of dissent and you'll take nothing for 1:01:37.920 --> 1:01:42.000 me ever again. Goodbye, great and mighty King. You've returned 1:01:42.000 --> 1:01:43.880 to the land of your birth, only to die here. 1:01:44.560 --> 1:01:47.240 T Chila bounces back from this defeat much quicker than 1:01:47.280 --> 1:01:50.840 he does in the first Panther film. But this, you know, 1:01:50.920 --> 1:01:53.400 this defeat really shakes to childdo his Core and its 1:01:53.440 --> 1:01:59.080 subsequent issues, he faces various challenges to his authority. Christopher Priest, 1:01:59.120 --> 1:02:00.919 who in nineteen eighty three he became the first black 1:02:00.920 --> 1:02:03.520 writer be hired at the big two comic houses, Marvel 1:02:03.520 --> 1:02:06.760 and DC, began writing Black Panther in nineteen ninety eight. 1:02:07.560 --> 1:02:12.520 At the time, this was a really tenuous time in 1:02:12.640 --> 1:02:15.480 comics written large and in particularly at Marvel, which was 1:02:15.560 --> 1:02:20.400 just then emerging from bankruptcy after the kind of collectibles 1:02:20.520 --> 1:02:23.960 wide bust of the early to mid aughts that included 1:02:24.000 --> 1:02:27.320 comics and included beanie babies, included trading cards, etc. All 1:02:27.320 --> 1:02:29.600 those things just tanked, and the company at that time 1:02:29.680 --> 1:02:33.360 was just kind of willing to try shit, just throw 1:02:33.840 --> 1:02:37.040 anything at the wall and see if anything came of it. 1:02:37.600 --> 1:02:40.880 One of those things was a new line of edgier 1:02:41.520 --> 1:02:47.840 comics branded as Marvel Knights. kN Ights Editors Joe Casada 1:02:47.920 --> 1:02:53.320 and Jimmy Palmiatti approached Priest about Black Panther. Christopher was 1:02:53.360 --> 1:02:57.760 initially hesitant to do it, but he accepted and it 1:02:57.840 --> 1:03:00.680 was a transformational run, breathing new energy to the character 1:03:00.760 --> 1:03:03.400 and lore. Quote he had the classic run on Black 1:03:03.400 --> 1:03:05.520 Panther period, and that's going to be true for a 1:03:05.560 --> 1:03:09.919 long time. Tom mcacy coats Black Panther writer and now 1:03:10.080 --> 1:03:15.480 Superman writer told Vultures Abraham Raisman in twenty eighteen, Priest 1:03:15.560 --> 1:03:24.040 brought a real kingly wait to T'Challa's character. Contrast this 1:03:24.240 --> 1:03:27.480 with Panther's rage, where T'Challa was more unsure of his 1:03:27.600 --> 1:03:33.440 leadership and how to wield it. In Priest telling, T'Challa 1:03:34.640 --> 1:03:38.240 was a leader, was a king, was a ruler, and 1:03:38.800 --> 1:03:42.360 exuded that confidence in the client. 1:03:42.480 --> 1:03:44.160 He just commands total respect. 1:03:44.400 --> 1:03:46.920 And while Priests did not create the Black Panther, it's 1:03:47.040 --> 1:03:51.000 really in many ways his version of the character that 1:03:51.080 --> 1:03:54.280 you see in the MCU. Priests and artist Mark Tashera 1:03:54.400 --> 1:03:58.640 tell the tale in a kind of jumble, fractured style 1:03:58.960 --> 1:04:02.600 that feels, you know, very Quentin Tarantino ask very of 1:04:02.720 --> 1:04:07.640 the time period of the nineties. It's about the Tomorrow Fund, 1:04:07.680 --> 1:04:11.840 which is a Kanda project to create affordable housing in 1:04:12.200 --> 1:04:15.840 kind of downtrodden urban areas. It's been revealed as a 1:04:15.880 --> 1:04:20.200 cover for a money laundering operation for drug money. A 1:04:20.280 --> 1:04:22.560 young girl who appears in the fund's ad with T'Challa 1:04:22.680 --> 1:04:27.680 is murdered, and despite tensions arising for war refugees sheltering Wakanda. 1:04:28.440 --> 1:04:30.960 The king travels to the US to try and figure out, like, okay, 1:04:30.960 --> 1:04:35.880 what's going on with this Tomorrow fund and to you know, 1:04:36.200 --> 1:04:39.800 like to bring those responsible to justice. He's accompanied by 1:04:39.840 --> 1:04:44.360 his personal bodyguards, Nikia and Akoye, members of the elite 1:04:44.480 --> 1:04:47.480 all female fighting force known as the Doramalaje. 1:04:48.640 --> 1:04:49.000 Quote. 1:04:49.040 --> 1:04:53.120 The concept of the dormalage Wakanda for adored ones evolved 1:04:53.120 --> 1:04:55.640 out of the brilliant work of Panther scribe Don McGregor, 1:04:56.000 --> 1:04:58.760 who theorized Wakanda was actually made up of a great 1:04:58.760 --> 1:05:02.400 many indigenous tribes and that not all the tribes liked 1:05:02.440 --> 1:05:06.520 each other. Priest writes on his website, Digitalpriest dot com. Quote, 1:05:06.760 --> 1:05:08.560 Joe and Jimmy just thought it'd be cool to have 1:05:08.640 --> 1:05:12.160 Panther travel with a pair of six foot tall, gorgeous women, 1:05:12.200 --> 1:05:13.480 and I certainly agreed. 1:05:14.440 --> 1:05:15.360 But the order of the. 1:05:15.320 --> 1:05:17.720 Door of a Ladje, a kind of nun wife in 1:05:17.840 --> 1:05:20.520 training deal gave us a foot in both the worlds. 1:05:20.560 --> 1:05:23.120 The panther struggled to maintain peace between the modern and 1:05:23.160 --> 1:05:25.800 the tribal end quote. The story is told mainly through 1:05:25.840 --> 1:05:32.080 the recollections of one colonizer Everett Ross Cia agent Everett 1:05:32.120 --> 1:05:35.880 ross Kind in the comics, a mid level State Department 1:05:35.920 --> 1:05:41.000 bureaucrat who's ostensibly assigned to d'challa as his kind of 1:05:41.040 --> 1:05:45.400 like point of contact with the US government, but whose 1:05:45.560 --> 1:05:48.880 actual job is to spy on him. A preset inspiration 1:05:49.000 --> 1:05:55.320 for Ross was hilariously chandler bing from Friends and Alex P. 1:05:55.480 --> 1:06:01.000 Keaton from the nineteen eighties sitcom Family Ties. The inclusion 1:06:01.040 --> 1:06:05.760 of Ross as a narrator was this really subversive moment. 1:06:06.400 --> 1:06:06.760 Quote. 1:06:06.760 --> 1:06:08.800 With Ross in place, the book began to take shape, 1:06:08.840 --> 1:06:10.600 Priest writes on Digital priest dot Com. 1:06:11.080 --> 1:06:11.760 Quote continues. 1:06:11.920 --> 1:06:13.920 Ross became the key to making the book work. He 1:06:14.040 --> 1:06:16.080 was the voice of the average Marvel reader, who, in 1:06:16.080 --> 1:06:19.240 no doubt wondered why Marvel was bothering with another Panther series. 1:06:19.720 --> 1:06:23.000 Ross's monologues began to steal the show, offsetting the mysterious 1:06:23.080 --> 1:06:25.480 night creature of the man a few words who Ross 1:06:25.640 --> 1:06:28.000 was attached to. The monologues were alf and outrageous, with 1:06:28.160 --> 1:06:31.840 Ross interpreting the Marvel universe through his every man's eyes 1:06:31.960 --> 1:06:34.000 rather than through the eyes of someone who's been reading 1:06:34.000 --> 1:06:36.760 comics all their life. It was a new voice, one 1:06:36.800 --> 1:06:40.320 seemingly hostile towards the Marvel universe and by extension, it's fans, 1:06:40.320 --> 1:06:43.080 But actually the intent is to be a social observer 1:06:43.200 --> 1:06:46.400 and a deconstructionist end quote. In his Nomo Notes and 1:06:46.440 --> 1:06:49.080 Super Black quote, the Ross figure provides the reader with 1:06:49.160 --> 1:06:51.560 the choice of identifying with either the white figure or 1:06:51.560 --> 1:06:54.960 the black superhero, or both of them, but never exclusively 1:06:55.000 --> 1:06:57.840 with the black protagonists. In this sense, Ross's character is 1:06:57.880 --> 1:07:00.800 a nifty technique for addressing whether or not readers will 1:07:00.840 --> 1:07:04.280 identify with a black superhero, namely T'Challa. By the mid 1:07:04.360 --> 1:07:09.080 two thousands, Priest had burned out at Marvel, frustrated by 1:07:09.080 --> 1:07:11.280 a lack of opportunities to write a list characters. 1:07:11.720 --> 1:07:12.200 Quote. 1:07:12.520 --> 1:07:15.800 I've mentioned this a lot in interviews, Priest told CBR 1:07:15.840 --> 1:07:19.560 dot Com in twenty twenty. But long story short, somehow, bizarrely, 1:07:19.600 --> 1:07:21.640 as a result of my writing Black Panther, a comic 1:07:21.680 --> 1:07:24.960 book about the cultural awakening of a white man named Ross, 1:07:25.880 --> 1:07:28.640 I stopped being a writer and somehow became a black writer. 1:07:28.960 --> 1:07:32.440 Offered only writing assignments for characters for color end quote. 1:07:32.760 --> 1:07:35.600 Priest returned to comics in twenty sixteen when DC offered 1:07:35.680 --> 1:07:37.760 him the writing duties on Death Stroke as part of 1:07:37.800 --> 1:07:41.120 the company's rebirth launch. That title ended in twenty nineteen, 1:07:41.360 --> 1:07:45.600 and as early as twenty twenty one, Priest was working 1:07:45.600 --> 1:07:49.080 on the relaunch of Vampirella for Dynamite Comics. 1:07:49.160 --> 1:07:53.840 Okay, and this is actually incredible because Billy Graham's first 1:07:53.880 --> 1:08:00.000 known credited work was actually on a Vampirella comic, illustrating 1:08:00.160 --> 1:08:03.200 Don Glas in Vampirella. I think it was number one 1:08:03.240 --> 1:08:06.160 in nineteen sixty nine, and he would go on to 1:08:06.280 --> 1:08:12.640 actually pencil nearly like a dozen stories and inc Vamprella stories. 1:08:12.640 --> 1:08:16.320 So it's kind of amazing that there's also that connection 1:08:16.520 --> 1:08:19.400 between what Priests is doing now and then where Billy 1:08:19.479 --> 1:08:21.719 found a home at the beginning of his career. 1:08:22.320 --> 1:08:25.719 Up next to conversation with Ironheart writer Eve l Ewing, 1:08:28.360 --> 1:08:31.160 X ray Vision is brought to you by Indeed Ambitious 1:08:31.240 --> 1:08:33.760 hiring goals for the last quarter of twenty twenty two 1:08:34.200 --> 1:08:36.840 with a powerful hiring partner. Big goals are no big deal. 1:08:37.040 --> 1:08:38.439 You need Indeed. 1:08:39.880 --> 1:08:43.439 Indeed is the hiring platform where you can attract, interview, 1:08:43.520 --> 1:08:49.000 and hire all in one place. 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This week, 1:13:14.439 --> 1:13:20.040 we're absolutely honored to have evaluing author, academic poet, writer 1:13:20.160 --> 1:13:25.240 of Marvel's Ironheart series, which reinvented re Rey and who 1:13:25.320 --> 1:13:28.960 of course makes her mcudbut in black panther kind of 1:13:29.000 --> 1:13:32.160 forever Eve. Welcome to X Revision. 1:13:32.640 --> 1:13:33.800 Oh thanks for having me. 1:13:33.840 --> 1:13:36.439 I am a super fan of the podcast, as y'all know, 1:13:36.600 --> 1:13:38.479 so this is very exciting for me. It's a big 1:13:38.479 --> 1:13:41.120 career moment for me, big career. 1:13:42.960 --> 1:13:46.280 To have you on the show. Oh, it's something just 1:13:46.360 --> 1:13:48.920 so wonderful to talk to people who make comics who 1:13:48.960 --> 1:13:51.640 love this stuff like we do. So first of all, like, 1:13:51.800 --> 1:13:54.880 what was your comic book origin story? What made you 1:13:54.920 --> 1:13:56.160 fall in love with comics? 1:13:56.840 --> 1:14:00.000 Yeah, well, my comic book origin story is a little unique, 1:14:00.160 --> 1:14:02.639 I think in that I would not have been born 1:14:02.720 --> 1:14:06.000 without comics. And what I mean by that is that 1:14:06.400 --> 1:14:10.520 my dad in the eighties was making and self publishing 1:14:11.400 --> 1:14:13.400 like comic books that are basically like zines. 1:14:13.960 --> 1:14:15.679 Oh wow, and so cool. 1:14:16.320 --> 1:14:17.639 Yeah, it's very cool. 1:14:18.320 --> 1:14:20.280 I have tracked down some of these and he's pretty 1:14:20.280 --> 1:14:23.320 mortified at them now, but I think they're cool. And 1:14:24.680 --> 1:14:28.040 in the eighties, my parents were both waiting at a 1:14:28.080 --> 1:14:31.720 Greyhound bus station in Chicago to head back to their 1:14:31.760 --> 1:14:35.559 respective hometowns for the holidays, and my dad was there 1:14:35.720 --> 1:14:39.400 selling these comic books for a dollar, and my mom 1:14:39.439 --> 1:14:41.840 bought one, and her and her friends had been like 1:14:41.920 --> 1:14:44.240 pregaming the greyhound, so they were like a little. 1:14:44.080 --> 1:14:46.920 Tipsy, you know, as one does. 1:14:47.800 --> 1:14:49.719 And she had never ridden the bus by herself before, 1:14:49.760 --> 1:14:52.000 and so they were getting on the same bus and 1:14:52.040 --> 1:14:54.679 her friends kind of like drunkenly said to my dad 1:14:54.800 --> 1:14:57.360 like you know, we have your comic book, and if 1:14:57.400 --> 1:14:59.800 something happens to our friend, like we'll find you, you know, 1:15:00.160 --> 1:15:03.240 responsible for her because there was no internet, and so 1:15:03.320 --> 1:15:05.840 he had like his you know, his mailing address and 1:15:05.880 --> 1:15:09.240 his phone number on this thing. And so so that's 1:15:09.240 --> 1:15:12.559 how my parents met. And so it's like a very 1:15:12.600 --> 1:15:16.840 literal origin story. And then my first comics as a kid. 1:15:16.960 --> 1:15:19.479 I feel now like confident enough in myself to say 1:15:19.479 --> 1:15:21.680 this that I was a big Archie comics fan. I 1:15:21.680 --> 1:15:25.519 think for many years, I yeah, didn't feel confident, uh 1:15:25.720 --> 1:15:27.519 sharing that, but I started reading Archie when I was 1:15:27.560 --> 1:15:30.559 in kindergarten and that was kind of my first you 1:15:30.560 --> 1:15:33.720 know Archie. They would like often reprint old comic like 1:15:33.760 --> 1:15:36.200 old strips in the same issue with new ones, and 1:15:36.240 --> 1:15:38.600 so that was also my introduction as a kid to 1:15:38.600 --> 1:15:41.559 the idea of like recurring characters and that different people 1:15:41.600 --> 1:15:44.599 can like have different takes on things and like letters 1:15:44.600 --> 1:15:46.800 to the editor and all these sorts of things. And 1:15:46.840 --> 1:15:50.120 then in middle school Chicago at the time when I 1:15:50.160 --> 1:15:53.160 was growing up, you know, like every week in our 1:15:53.240 --> 1:15:55.920 local all weekly, I would be reading like Linda Barry 1:15:55.960 --> 1:15:59.439 and Ivan Brunetti and Chris Ware. So it was like 1:15:59.439 --> 1:16:02.080 a really great time for comics and cartooning. And then 1:16:02.120 --> 1:16:05.559 in high school I started getting more into superhero comics. 1:16:05.920 --> 1:16:08.439 I'll shout out like Chicago Comics and Quimby's, which is 1:16:08.439 --> 1:16:11.080 a place that has some amazing zine collection. You know, 1:16:11.120 --> 1:16:13.320 I was reading like superhero stuff, but also like Joan 1:16:13.400 --> 1:16:16.200 and Vasquez and you know, yeah. 1:16:16.080 --> 1:16:21.680 Baby Jennie the homicidal maniac. Yeah, age was it was. 1:16:21.720 --> 1:16:22.400 That was the thing. 1:16:22.439 --> 1:16:24.000 And you know it was also like a great time 1:16:24.040 --> 1:16:27.360 for animation. You know, like Samurai Jack came out when 1:16:27.400 --> 1:16:31.200 I was fifteen. I promise, I'll wrap up this long story. 1:16:31.040 --> 1:16:34.640 So and I don't know this is why. 1:16:35.720 --> 1:16:38.439 Well, you know, since we're at like my first when 1:16:38.439 --> 1:16:40.080 I was in high school, I signed up to take 1:16:40.080 --> 1:16:42.639 this history of animation class at the University of Chicago, 1:16:42.680 --> 1:16:45.840 where I now teach, and I learned about like Jan 1:16:45.880 --> 1:16:50.360 Schwanckmeyer and like Windsor McKay and yeah, so, like I 1:16:50.360 --> 1:16:53.320 would say, animation and comics and cartooning were all very 1:16:53.400 --> 1:16:55.639 much of a piece for me. And then the last 1:16:55.680 --> 1:16:57.960 thing in this epic origin story is that when I 1:16:58.080 --> 1:17:03.599 was fifteen or sixteen, at the Chicago Humanities Festival, Neil 1:17:03.640 --> 1:17:07.479 Gaiman was interviewing Will Eisner, and my dad took me 1:17:07.640 --> 1:17:11.519 to see that interview, and so that was pretty amazing, 1:17:11.960 --> 1:17:14.800 especially because later on, and you know, if we talk 1:17:14.840 --> 1:17:17.320 about like the not so fun part of comics, later 1:17:17.880 --> 1:17:20.240 I had the very surreal experience of Neil Gaman like 1:17:20.280 --> 1:17:23.759 defending me on the internet from comics on people. 1:17:23.800 --> 1:17:25.760 So that was pretty cool. I was like, Wow, you're 1:17:25.800 --> 1:17:26.479 really important to me. 1:17:27.720 --> 1:17:29.280 But you know, I think that like when I was 1:17:29.280 --> 1:17:31.320 in high school, I never People always say like, did 1:17:31.320 --> 1:17:32.679 you think that you would write comics? 1:17:32.680 --> 1:17:36.599 And I absolutely didn't because I never I never. 1:17:36.479 --> 1:17:40.120 Saw anybody who looked like me doing it, and and 1:17:40.160 --> 1:17:41.679 I think that there are many people in this world 1:17:41.680 --> 1:17:44.000 who have the imagination to kind of insert themselves in 1:17:44.040 --> 1:17:46.439 the narratives where they haven't been and I just didn't have. 1:17:46.320 --> 1:17:47.480 That level of imagination. 1:17:47.920 --> 1:17:49.719 So I was like, oh, you know, this is something 1:17:49.760 --> 1:17:52.000 I'm always gonna love, but I'll never get a chance 1:17:52.040 --> 1:17:55.679 to do. But I did, as I started taking myself 1:17:55.720 --> 1:17:59.080 pretty seriously as a writer across lots of genres. You know, 1:17:59.120 --> 1:18:01.200 I was reading a lot of Ivan Brunetti and Scott 1:18:01.280 --> 1:18:03.839 McLeod and stuff like that, because I also and I still, 1:18:04.200 --> 1:18:06.400 you know, to students and all kinds of people who 1:18:06.439 --> 1:18:07.800 just want to talk about like how to be a 1:18:07.800 --> 1:18:11.559 great writer, I tell them like, read understanding comics, read 1:18:11.680 --> 1:18:14.519 cartoon in philosophy, and practice right because I think that 1:18:15.080 --> 1:18:16.720 they have a lot to teach us just about like 1:18:16.880 --> 1:18:20.400 narrative in general and storytelling in general. So yeah, I 1:18:20.400 --> 1:18:23.559 think that before I even started writing comics, a lot 1:18:23.600 --> 1:18:27.080 of my other writing was very informed by that tradition. 1:18:29.840 --> 1:18:33.599 Just from that answer, I think people who maybe are 1:18:33.640 --> 1:18:37.880 not familiar with your work or you are, are getting 1:18:37.920 --> 1:18:43.439 the picture of how incredibly varied and well rounded you are. 1:18:43.840 --> 1:18:46.000 You know, if that's the right. Thank you for the 1:18:46.160 --> 1:18:48.840 for the amount of stuff that that you know about 1:18:48.920 --> 1:18:53.120 and that your intellect touches. And I wonder as so 1:18:53.320 --> 1:18:56.920 as you know, as an assistant professor, as. 1:18:57.000 --> 1:19:02.880 Oh I'm associate No, I'm telling okay officially, yeah, I 1:19:02.920 --> 1:19:03.639 can't be fired. 1:19:03.680 --> 1:19:03.960 I can. 1:19:04.080 --> 1:19:05.760 I love it. You love to hear it. 1:19:06.240 --> 1:19:07.560 Pretty great scam. 1:19:08.000 --> 1:19:10.599 You know, as an academic, as a sociologist, as an author, 1:19:10.600 --> 1:19:11.200 as a poet. 1:19:11.200 --> 1:19:16.400 How do how do all those things inform your work? 1:19:16.800 --> 1:19:17.040 Uh? 1:19:17.320 --> 1:19:21.400 You know, at any point in this range of things 1:19:21.400 --> 1:19:22.400 that you're interested in? 1:19:23.400 --> 1:19:24.760 Yeah, thanks for asking that. 1:19:24.840 --> 1:19:26.160 I thought you were going to pivot to the whole 1:19:26.160 --> 1:19:28.280 rest of the interview being about Yan Schwankemeyer and like. 1:19:28.280 --> 1:19:30.519 Check trying to get there. 1:19:34.200 --> 1:19:36.600 Yeah, you know, I think that at the end of 1:19:36.640 --> 1:19:39.040 the day, I just want to tell stories. 1:19:39.080 --> 1:19:40.240 I want to tell good stories. 1:19:40.400 --> 1:19:44.639 And I think that not to get like too heady 1:19:44.720 --> 1:19:47.800 or whatever, but you know, a lot of these get 1:19:47.880 --> 1:19:51.680 intellect okay, please get a get any intellectuals that are 1:19:51.760 --> 1:19:54.639 most important to me, and particularly in the black intellectual tradition. 1:19:54.880 --> 1:19:55.840 You know, people like W. E. B. 1:19:55.960 --> 1:19:59.680 Du Bois, people like Zuriel Hurston have always written all 1:19:59.760 --> 1:20:02.760 kinds of things right, like across genre, and I think 1:20:02.800 --> 1:20:05.160 that I think that a lot of times folks don't 1:20:05.240 --> 1:20:07.760 really want to give themselves permission to do that. But 1:20:07.880 --> 1:20:10.439 for me, I try to approach any story or anything 1:20:10.479 --> 1:20:12.600 I want to write about and talk about and think, like, 1:20:13.120 --> 1:20:15.040 what is the medium that is best going to serve 1:20:15.080 --> 1:20:17.120 what it is I'm trying to say and do. And 1:20:17.200 --> 1:20:20.840 also I think I'm really comfortable being a learner. I'm 1:20:20.840 --> 1:20:23.680 really I used to teach middle school and that's a 1:20:23.720 --> 1:20:30.120 great way to learn humility, you know, like comfort with 1:20:30.200 --> 1:20:32.280 being like, Okay, what can I do better today than 1:20:32.320 --> 1:20:35.160 I did yesterday. And I think, if anything, I'm I'm 1:20:35.200 --> 1:20:39.400 really comfortable doing that. And so I think that you know, 1:20:39.479 --> 1:20:42.479 all this stuff that I write and and try to make, 1:20:43.000 --> 1:20:44.720 you know, I've I've co written a play, and I 1:20:44.760 --> 1:20:47.760 write poetry, and I do comics and working on some 1:20:47.840 --> 1:20:50.200 TV stuff, And I think what unites all those things 1:20:50.240 --> 1:20:52.200 is just like what's the best possible story that we 1:20:52.240 --> 1:20:55.840 can tell? What are those fundamentals of really good storytelling, 1:20:56.760 --> 1:20:58.559 you know, and how do we how do we get there? 1:20:59.320 --> 1:21:01.400 And I also think I think, like I try to 1:21:01.439 --> 1:21:04.120 do something in comics that I think is has always 1:21:04.120 --> 1:21:06.040 been part of the tradition, right, which is like using 1:21:06.080 --> 1:21:09.240 comics as a space to bring interesting questions about the 1:21:09.280 --> 1:21:12.200 world we live in, uh to readers in a very 1:21:12.280 --> 1:21:16.880 like pop culture, low brow way, you know. And I 1:21:16.880 --> 1:21:20.479 think that that's also like the kind of like pulpy, cheap, 1:21:20.800 --> 1:21:23.519 like crappy, low culture aspect of comics is something that 1:21:23.560 --> 1:21:27.479 I also really love and embrace. And you know, I 1:21:27.720 --> 1:21:30.200 have a graphic novel coming out this coming next year 1:21:30.200 --> 1:21:32.000 in March, but prior to that, I'd never written a 1:21:32.000 --> 1:21:34.160 graphic novel, and you know, like a lot of my 1:21:34.200 --> 1:21:36.160 colleagues and stuff who don't know anything about comics would 1:21:36.160 --> 1:21:39.240 be like, oh, congrats on your graphic novel, right, because 1:21:39.240 --> 1:21:41.720 they basically saw graphic novels like a polite word for. 1:21:42.040 --> 1:21:45.479 Like, yeah, it's the comics is the that you haud 1:21:45.520 --> 1:21:46.280 didn't yeah. 1:21:47.400 --> 1:21:50.040 You know yeah, And people thought that they were like 1:21:50.080 --> 1:21:51.600 insulting me and they had to use this kind of 1:21:51.640 --> 1:21:54.880 like euphemism. And I'm super into that. I'm super into 1:21:54.960 --> 1:21:59.320 like pulpy, cheap garbage stories written on like you know, 1:21:59.439 --> 1:22:03.719 paper literally staple together, like so I'm sold on paper 1:22:03.760 --> 1:22:04.960 that is like not very good. 1:22:05.400 --> 1:22:06.240 I'm totally into that. 1:22:06.280 --> 1:22:09.280 And I think it puts comics alongside jazz, alongside him 1:22:09.320 --> 1:22:12.880 hu as you know, kind of like a great subterranean 1:22:13.320 --> 1:22:13.760 art form. 1:22:14.360 --> 1:22:16.559 Absolutely, And I think one of the things that's so 1:22:16.720 --> 1:22:20.639 powerful is the certain level of freedom you get from 1:22:20.640 --> 1:22:25.120 writing something that's like disposable or disposed for real time. 1:22:25.720 --> 1:22:28.479 And how does it feel like, so, say, like poetry 1:22:28.520 --> 1:22:33.320 collection like Electric Arches, which definitely deals with a lot 1:22:33.320 --> 1:22:35.799 of the same themes and interest, the kind of cosmic 1:22:35.920 --> 1:22:39.360 mixed with the mundane. What kind of freedom do you 1:22:39.439 --> 1:22:41.639 get when you take those themes and you take them 1:22:41.680 --> 1:22:45.240 out of a poetry space, a very structured space, and 1:22:45.280 --> 1:22:47.439 then you put them onto the page in a comic book. 1:22:47.520 --> 1:22:50.160 How different is that for you? And how much fun 1:22:50.200 --> 1:22:51.880 do you get to have in that in that world 1:22:51.920 --> 1:22:52.479 of panels? 1:22:52.479 --> 1:22:57.559 And oh, you know, I see, actually I see in like, 1:22:57.640 --> 1:22:59.360 if I were to categorize the work that I do, 1:22:59.439 --> 1:23:01.720 I see kind of poetry and comics as being of 1:23:01.760 --> 1:23:04.320 a piece and that I think both of them are 1:23:04.400 --> 1:23:06.439 places where I feel a lot of permission to just 1:23:06.479 --> 1:23:08.280 do wild stuff and just say. 1:23:08.080 --> 1:23:09.639 Whatever you know and do whatever. 1:23:09.920 --> 1:23:12.640 But I think the difference about comics is that, like 1:23:13.760 --> 1:23:16.960 you know, it's such a collaborative medium, and so for me, 1:23:17.640 --> 1:23:20.639 you know, the poetry in my first book, Electric Arches, 1:23:20.680 --> 1:23:23.320 which you're so kind to mention, is is very much 1:23:23.360 --> 1:23:27.000 about imagination, is very much about you know, afrofuturism and 1:23:27.080 --> 1:23:31.559 exploration and time travel and like weird space stuff. But 1:23:31.920 --> 1:23:34.040 to bring in the visual element of that is just 1:23:34.120 --> 1:23:38.080 so magical to me. And I feel, you know, I've 1:23:38.080 --> 1:23:40.040 gotten to work with a lot of different artists at 1:23:40.040 --> 1:23:44.400 this point, and I feel like really grateful for all 1:23:44.439 --> 1:23:46.840 of them, and really grateful for the process. And I 1:23:46.920 --> 1:23:48.880 think that for folks who have never been on the 1:23:48.880 --> 1:23:51.400 creator side of comics, just really wrapping your mind around 1:23:51.479 --> 1:23:53.599 how many people go into making one thing. I think 1:23:53.720 --> 1:23:56.000 is often something that surprises a lot of people. So 1:23:56.360 --> 1:23:58.640 you know, you pick up a comic book that's at 1:23:58.720 --> 1:24:03.200 least one editor, right, at least one writer, somebody doing pencils, 1:24:03.240 --> 1:24:06.240 somebody maybe doing layout, somebody doing inks, somebody doing colors, 1:24:06.280 --> 1:24:09.360 somebody doing lettering, right, And I really love working with 1:24:09.400 --> 1:24:13.680 all those folks, and in particular with Ironheart being my 1:24:13.800 --> 1:24:16.559 first kind of like big two comics experience, I got 1:24:16.760 --> 1:24:20.040 really lucky working with with Luciano Vecchio for most of 1:24:20.040 --> 1:24:22.120 the run. Also shout out to Kevin Lebronda, who started 1:24:22.120 --> 1:24:24.599 out the run, but most of the issues are drawn 1:24:24.640 --> 1:24:29.160 by Luciano, who's just like an amazing, wonderful person. And 1:24:29.240 --> 1:24:31.639 so that aspect of it is really different than poetry 1:24:31.680 --> 1:24:34.280 or other forms of writing, where it's like I'm trying 1:24:34.320 --> 1:24:36.040 to take stuff from my brain and say it on 1:24:36.080 --> 1:24:39.160 paper and then turning it over with a lot of 1:24:39.200 --> 1:24:42.320 trust and a lot of gratitude to really brilliant people 1:24:42.400 --> 1:24:44.679 who are gonna bring it to life in a different way. 1:24:45.360 --> 1:24:47.400 And so that's something that I that I really appreciate. 1:24:47.400 --> 1:24:49.320 And one of the biggest things that I try to 1:24:49.320 --> 1:24:52.519 tell you know, folks who are again like as I'm 1:24:52.520 --> 1:24:54.479 teaching or talking to folks about coming into the space 1:24:54.560 --> 1:24:57.080 is like an artist on a comic book is not 1:24:57.120 --> 1:24:57.800 an illustrator. 1:24:57.840 --> 1:24:58.800 Their job is not to. 1:25:00.560 --> 1:25:03.800 Compliment or like make pretty what you're doing right, Like 1:25:03.880 --> 1:25:06.360 they are doing fifty percent or more of the work 1:25:06.720 --> 1:25:08.400 through their craft and translating. 1:25:08.520 --> 1:25:11.240 They translate your script into the comic book, you know. 1:25:11.439 --> 1:25:13.920 Yeah, and there and like visual art is what makes 1:25:13.920 --> 1:25:16.519 comics what they are, right, And so I think it's 1:25:16.560 --> 1:25:19.920 also been really amazing for me to live into some 1:25:19.960 --> 1:25:22.720 of my principles as a writer about like parsimony and 1:25:22.800 --> 1:25:24.800 less is more and showdown, tell and all that type 1:25:24.800 --> 1:25:27.840 of stuff becomes very literal in the comic space in 1:25:27.880 --> 1:25:30.439 a way that it isn't in like nonfiction or poetry 1:25:30.479 --> 1:25:31.280 or other things. 1:25:32.720 --> 1:25:34.519 I wonder if you could take us into that the 1:25:34.920 --> 1:25:41.320 kind of process that you uncovered through working on Ironheart, 1:25:42.400 --> 1:25:45.599 because you know, one of the things that I think 1:25:45.840 --> 1:25:48.160 Rosie and I try to do with this pod is 1:25:48.240 --> 1:25:51.759 like point a way for people like Rosie and myself 1:25:51.840 --> 1:25:54.280 who fell in love with comics, fell in love with 1:25:54.439 --> 1:25:59.040 serialized storytelling to try and if they ever wanted to 1:25:59.080 --> 1:26:02.759 do that, find the creative outlet for themselves, to find 1:26:02.760 --> 1:26:05.200 the kind of like nuts and bolts things that they 1:26:05.280 --> 1:26:08.240 could you know, bring into their process that could help 1:26:08.240 --> 1:26:08.800 them get there. 1:26:08.880 --> 1:26:11.920 So what what was that? Like? What what is the what's. 1:26:11.680 --> 1:26:15.680 The storytelling process, the collaborative process, like on on on 1:26:15.760 --> 1:26:17.680 these issues. How do you how do you bring these 1:26:17.720 --> 1:26:18.599 stories to life? 1:26:19.080 --> 1:26:19.559 Yeah? 1:26:19.600 --> 1:26:21.240 Well, you know, I think the first thing you have 1:26:21.280 --> 1:26:22.639 to get over is like immense fear. 1:26:23.640 --> 1:26:30.200 I mean that's the biggest, the biggest obstacle for any. 1:26:28.200 --> 1:26:33.000 Yeah, I think that, you know, I something I like, 1:26:33.040 --> 1:26:34.960 I've I've published a lot of stuff. I've written a 1:26:35.000 --> 1:26:37.760 lot of stuff, and to this day, when I sit 1:26:37.800 --> 1:26:39.479 down to write a new thing, you know, I have 1:26:39.560 --> 1:26:42.040 that moment of terror of like I think I'm gonna 1:26:42.040 --> 1:26:47.280 throw up, you know, like I'm like i might die, Like. 1:26:47.240 --> 1:26:48.320 I might die from writing. 1:26:48.880 --> 1:26:51.080 Is today the day that writing finally gets me? You know? 1:26:52.120 --> 1:26:54.400 And so I think the biggest thing is like learning 1:26:54.400 --> 1:26:57.879 to push through that. Alexander Chi, who's an essayist and novelist, 1:26:58.760 --> 1:27:00.400 has this thing that he said that I'm I'm sort 1:27:00.400 --> 1:27:02.439 of paraphrasing, but people should look it up from his book, 1:27:02.439 --> 1:27:04.799 which is called them How to Write an Autobiographical Novel, 1:27:05.439 --> 1:27:07.880 which the title is misleading because it's not about that. 1:27:08.600 --> 1:27:10.439 It's just like a collection of essays, many of which 1:27:10.439 --> 1:27:13.200 are about writing. But one of the things he says 1:27:13.240 --> 1:27:15.479 is like the difference between people who write and people 1:27:15.479 --> 1:27:16.280 who don't is being. 1:27:16.120 --> 1:27:16.840 Able to stand it. 1:27:17.520 --> 1:27:20.519 And so I think the biggest thing is like learning 1:27:20.560 --> 1:27:22.680 to trust yourself and to work through some of those 1:27:22.680 --> 1:27:26.880 feelings of discomfort, and then beyond that, you know, I 1:27:27.120 --> 1:27:29.640 studied up a lot, I seek feedback a lot. I 1:27:29.680 --> 1:27:33.040 think that who I am now. I'm working on what 1:27:33.080 --> 1:27:35.320 my next project is going to be for Marvel, which 1:27:35.320 --> 1:27:37.559 I really wish I could tell you because it's super exciting, 1:27:38.800 --> 1:27:41.880 superret But I'm working on that now, and I've had 1:27:41.880 --> 1:27:43.840 a lot of opportunities to reflect on like who I 1:27:43.880 --> 1:27:45.880 am now as a comics writer versus who I was 1:27:45.920 --> 1:27:49.760 in twenty eighteen trying to start Ironheart. And I think 1:27:49.800 --> 1:27:52.479 that the biggest thing that I had on my side 1:27:52.640 --> 1:27:56.160 was reading a lot, studying a lot. You know, some 1:27:56.200 --> 1:27:58.320 of those those books that we just talked about, you 1:27:58.320 --> 1:28:01.639 know a lot of certainly everything Scott McLeod wrote about comics. 1:28:02.439 --> 1:28:04.800 You know, Will Eisner's books. Greg Pak has a really 1:28:04.840 --> 1:28:07.559 great book called Making Comics Like the Pros or something 1:28:07.560 --> 1:28:10.040 like that, and he's amazing, but. 1:28:10.040 --> 1:28:11.720 Also like reaching out for help, you know. 1:28:11.840 --> 1:28:14.000 And so I had folks give me a lot of 1:28:14.000 --> 1:28:18.280 feedback on things and kind of push push me forward. 1:28:19.080 --> 1:28:21.760 And then even with that understanding that the first thing 1:28:21.840 --> 1:28:23.439 you write, like, you know, I look back at my 1:28:23.760 --> 1:28:25.800 first issue of Ironheart and I'm like, you know, oh 1:28:25.880 --> 1:28:26.639 my god, there's. 1:28:26.479 --> 1:28:29.240 So many things that I would never do, you know. 1:28:29.360 --> 1:28:31.960 And that's the truth for every comics writer I've ever 1:28:32.000 --> 1:28:34.360 spoken to, and they're like, oh, it's like nauseating to 1:28:34.400 --> 1:28:36.320 look back at where you started, But you have to 1:28:36.320 --> 1:28:37.920 be willing to push through that, you know, you have 1:28:37.960 --> 1:28:40.680 to be willing to kind of get over that. And 1:28:40.720 --> 1:28:43.160 I think for anybody who wants to write in any genre, 1:28:43.160 --> 1:28:45.400 I think about this. I'm really into baking and I'm 1:28:45.400 --> 1:28:46.280 really into metaphors. 1:28:46.320 --> 1:28:49.040 So you know, one of my. 1:28:49.000 --> 1:28:51.080 Favorite ways of thinking about this is like if I 1:28:51.120 --> 1:28:52.600 told you, if you're like, you know, I want to 1:28:52.600 --> 1:28:54.599 make a cake. Like I've seen cake, I've eaten cake, 1:28:54.920 --> 1:28:58.040 really into it. It's tasty, it's delicious, it's beautiful. And 1:28:58.320 --> 1:28:59.960 you know, you took a bowl and you put like 1:29:00.080 --> 1:29:02.880 eggs and flour and milk and cocoa powder into a 1:29:02.920 --> 1:29:04.559 bowl and you start it up and you're like, this 1:29:04.600 --> 1:29:06.479 doesn't look like cake at all, Like this is discuss 1:29:06.479 --> 1:29:08.080 you know, what is this? And you throw it in 1:29:08.080 --> 1:29:11.120 the garbage, like you you don't go that's you didn't finish. 1:29:11.439 --> 1:29:12.599 You didn't finish the process. 1:29:12.920 --> 1:29:14.880 And I think that a lot of folks they see 1:29:14.920 --> 1:29:17.120 the writing that they admire the most, and they see 1:29:17.160 --> 1:29:20.439 the finished product of that, and they don't realize exactly 1:29:20.520 --> 1:29:23.960 how much like utter garbage, Sauce went into going from 1:29:24.000 --> 1:29:27.000 a first draft to a final product. And like you 1:29:27.080 --> 1:29:29.240 gotta put the cake in the in the pit, put 1:29:29.280 --> 1:29:30.880 the batter in the oven, and put the you know, 1:29:30.920 --> 1:29:32.120 put the batter in the pan, and put. 1:29:32.040 --> 1:29:32.759 The pan in the oven. 1:29:33.280 --> 1:29:37.040 And and I think that that's that's the secret. 1:29:37.160 --> 1:29:41.000 You know, I was a ton of hockey coats. 1:29:41.000 --> 1:29:43.479 I'm very grateful to count him as a close, close 1:29:43.520 --> 1:29:47.040 friend and mentor. And I watched him be interviewed several 1:29:47.120 --> 1:29:50.240 years ago and somebody asked him about the case for reparations, 1:29:50.960 --> 1:29:54.400 which for those who only know him from comics and 1:29:54.479 --> 1:29:56.400 you know how him for his runs on im Cap 1:29:56.400 --> 1:29:59.000 and Black Panther. He you know, wrote this really important 1:29:59.000 --> 1:30:02.680 piece of nonfiction pros And you know, somebody said, I 1:30:02.720 --> 1:30:04.240 wish I could have written that. I could never have 1:30:04.240 --> 1:30:06.599 written that. He said, Oh, it was easy. You know, 1:30:06.720 --> 1:30:08.759 all I did was I wrote it badly five times. 1:30:08.880 --> 1:30:11.720 Yeah, exactly, It's all you have to do. 1:30:12.400 --> 1:30:13.639 And I think that that's it. 1:30:13.720 --> 1:30:16.519 So, you know, unfortunately that's true about so many things, 1:30:16.560 --> 1:30:20.880 like you know, working out, exercise, like relationships, like all 1:30:20.920 --> 1:30:22.639 these things about life that we kind of wish were 1:30:22.680 --> 1:30:23.040 just easy. 1:30:23.120 --> 1:30:26.320 Unfortunately, you just have to do the thing. I love 1:30:26.400 --> 1:30:27.600 that it sucks. 1:30:27.880 --> 1:30:30.320 Because that's what we always that when people we've done 1:30:30.320 --> 1:30:33.160 like mail book, mail Bag episodes and stuff, and people 1:30:33.160 --> 1:30:35.160 will say like, oh, how do you get into writing comics? 1:30:35.200 --> 1:30:37.640 How do you start writing? And true is you just 1:30:37.680 --> 1:30:39.080 got to make them. You got to do that what 1:30:39.200 --> 1:30:41.840 your dad did, You go to make it lean, You 1:30:41.880 --> 1:30:44.120 got to write a script, you got to write a pilot. 1:30:44.760 --> 1:30:47.160 And you kind of touched on this, but you know 1:30:48.080 --> 1:30:50.680 throughout that that's your writing process, that's how you get 1:30:50.720 --> 1:30:53.559 it done. And you mentioned this, but like what was 1:30:53.600 --> 1:30:56.840 it like the first time that you still and still 1:30:56.880 --> 1:30:58.519 now because I know it's like the best feeling. But 1:30:59.320 --> 1:31:01.519 what was it like when you started to get the 1:31:01.680 --> 1:31:04.559 art back and you started to see oh my gosh, yeah, 1:31:04.600 --> 1:31:07.320 your story and really being brought to life in this 1:31:07.400 --> 1:31:09.880 form that you'd loved since you were a kid, and 1:31:09.960 --> 1:31:12.840 suddenly you're part of that process. How did that feel? 1:31:13.439 --> 1:31:15.320 Oh, it's mind blowing. I never get over it. 1:31:15.360 --> 1:31:20.000 I mean, yeah, getting art back is like the Grid's Christmas. 1:31:20.040 --> 1:31:22.920 I mean, it's like Christmas and your birthday, you know, 1:31:23.040 --> 1:31:23.840 rolled into one. 1:31:24.200 --> 1:31:27.760 And I think that. 1:31:26.439 --> 1:31:29.880 That's also part of why it's challenging to start, because 1:31:29.920 --> 1:31:31.960 when you when you write your first comic script, if 1:31:32.000 --> 1:31:34.840 you're doing your own art, that's dope and actually secret 1:31:34.920 --> 1:31:37.080 since we're doing all kinds of secret confessionals of things 1:31:37.080 --> 1:31:38.560 I wouldn't normally say in interviews. 1:31:39.160 --> 1:31:39.360 You know. 1:31:39.400 --> 1:31:43.439 I actually in the early like twenty eleven, twenty twelve, 1:31:43.439 --> 1:31:45.679 I was like, oh, I'll probably just like self publish 1:31:45.680 --> 1:31:46.360 a lot of comics. 1:31:46.320 --> 1:31:47.439 So I was drawing. 1:31:47.760 --> 1:31:51.240 I was writing and drawing well, and you know, and 1:31:51.360 --> 1:31:54.040 like and that. I mean for those who draw do 1:31:54.120 --> 1:31:56.080 visual art, it's the same thing, right, Like every time 1:31:56.120 --> 1:31:58.439 you sit down to put a pencil to paper, you 1:31:58.560 --> 1:32:01.360 learn something new at the limits of your own ability, 1:32:01.520 --> 1:32:04.240 right where you're like, oh man, people have wrists, like, 1:32:04.400 --> 1:32:04.880 you know, like. 1:32:06.040 --> 1:32:09.760 How do you what's a car? 1:32:10.479 --> 1:32:10.960 Dragon car? 1:32:11.000 --> 1:32:12.519 And you're like, I've never seen a car before. 1:32:14.240 --> 1:32:16.000 Doesn't know it's a dog? 1:32:16.800 --> 1:32:22.120 Maybe maybe no animals in this, nobody's never seen another person. 1:32:24.040 --> 1:32:26.960 Maybe I'll just look at everything straight on, you know, 1:32:27.520 --> 1:32:29.679 And and this, honestly, that's a kind of a cool 1:32:29.720 --> 1:32:29.920 you know. 1:32:30.320 --> 1:32:32.639 Another comic strip that I love growing up was Life 1:32:32.680 --> 1:32:34.639 and Hell by Matt Greening, right where it's like literally 1:32:34.680 --> 1:32:37.759 every single so you know, I wrote this this uh, 1:32:38.040 --> 1:32:41.200 this strip called Pretend Interviews, which was a comic of 1:32:41.400 --> 1:32:44.280 a cartoon strip, a cartoon of a radio show, of 1:32:44.400 --> 1:32:47.400 a fictional radio show of me interviewing dead people. And 1:32:47.479 --> 1:32:49.639 I did it Life and hellstyle, where every single panel 1:32:49.680 --> 1:32:51.880 was exactly the same as a sitting. 1:32:52.920 --> 1:32:54.120 Just literally copy and paste. 1:32:54.200 --> 1:32:56.240 So anyway, unless you're doing your own art, and even 1:32:56.280 --> 1:32:59.000 if you are, the part of the challenge of writing 1:32:59.040 --> 1:33:03.200 your first script is is recognizing that kind of translational 1:33:03.240 --> 1:33:05.519 work that Rosie was talking about, which is like, how 1:33:05.560 --> 1:33:08.360 do I say this in a way that somebody else 1:33:08.439 --> 1:33:10.040 is going to be able to draw it and in 1:33:10.080 --> 1:33:12.360 a way that's compelling. You know, how do I do 1:33:12.400 --> 1:33:15.000 that succinctly? How how do I give them enough and 1:33:15.040 --> 1:33:18.479 not too much? And the first time you're writing a 1:33:18.479 --> 1:33:21.760 script and you haven't seen how it turns to art, Uh, 1:33:21.800 --> 1:33:23.880 that's hard to do, right, And so it ceases to 1:33:23.880 --> 1:33:25.480 be kind of an intellectual exercise. 1:33:25.880 --> 1:33:26.080 I was. 1:33:26.120 --> 1:33:27.880 I was helping a friend of mine who's who's writing 1:33:27.920 --> 1:33:29.519 his first comic script, and he sent it to me, 1:33:29.600 --> 1:33:31.559 and you know, I sent him a gentle reminder that 1:33:31.600 --> 1:33:34.479 I also had to receive, which is that in comics, 1:33:34.520 --> 1:33:35.960 people can only do one thing at a time. 1:33:36.120 --> 1:33:38.519 Yes, right, so you can't come. 1:33:38.560 --> 1:33:42.360 Through a door into another room and then something. 1:33:42.760 --> 1:33:45.360 Walked in and picked her mug of t and high 1:33:45.439 --> 1:33:46.200 five Jason. 1:33:46.479 --> 1:33:46.759 Yeah. 1:33:46.840 --> 1:33:47.360 Wow, that's the. 1:33:47.360 --> 1:33:52.040 Whole thing, Like you decide, And that's different. I think 1:33:52.080 --> 1:33:54.280 also a lot of folks were familiar with like screenwriting 1:33:54.360 --> 1:33:58.479 or to people move like DV. Human beings can move 1:33:58.479 --> 1:34:01.080 around in three dimensions, and so so that's kind of 1:34:01.120 --> 1:34:03.880 like to me, honestly, what I still really relish at 1:34:03.880 --> 1:34:06.640 a craft level, it's like, what is the what is 1:34:06.680 --> 1:34:07.320 the gestaltz. 1:34:07.400 --> 1:34:10.800 What is the essence of what like this this rosy moment? 1:34:10.880 --> 1:34:11.040 Right? 1:34:11.120 --> 1:34:12.960 Is it most important that she SIPs her tea? Is 1:34:13.000 --> 1:34:14.920 it most important that she pets the cat? Is it 1:34:14.960 --> 1:34:17.400 most like what am I actually trying to get across? 1:34:18.439 --> 1:34:21.599 And I kind of love that, Like I love thinking 1:34:21.600 --> 1:34:27.360 about how you reduce moments of immense emotion and human 1:34:27.360 --> 1:34:29.920 interaction to like a single thing. I'm also really a 1:34:29.960 --> 1:34:33.360 big fan of like it's pretty boring when people are 1:34:33.360 --> 1:34:36.040 just talking to each other, like standing there talking, And 1:34:36.080 --> 1:34:40.439 so I'm also a big fan of the subtextual visual 1:34:40.760 --> 1:34:43.599 like substory that that I script out, but that doesn't 1:34:43.640 --> 1:34:47.479 involve dialogue, right, And so you know, like there's this 1:34:47.680 --> 1:34:53.679 an issue seven, Issue seven of Iron Hurt, Nadia van Dyne, 1:34:53.760 --> 1:34:56.760 the Wasp comes to visit Rerea in her lab and 1:34:56.880 --> 1:35:00.280 she's re reshowing her around and. 1:35:00.040 --> 1:35:01.519 And the subtexe. 1:35:01.640 --> 1:35:03.640 So like, as she's showing her around the lab, to me, 1:35:03.760 --> 1:35:05.800 this is an opportunity to show a lot of things 1:35:05.840 --> 1:35:07.760 about Rerea. So one of the things she'd like a 1:35:07.800 --> 1:35:10.200 recurring thing in Ironheart is that every time re reopens 1:35:10.240 --> 1:35:13.000 a fridge, it's only full of orange pop. And so 1:35:13.080 --> 1:35:16.759 like she only that's all she drinks, and. 1:35:17.080 --> 1:35:18.920 That's like a that's a character moment, right. 1:35:19.560 --> 1:35:23.200 The things, the ways that people interact with each other nonverbally, 1:35:23.680 --> 1:35:26.120 the things that you see on somebody's desk, the way 1:35:26.160 --> 1:35:28.560 that they dress, right, Like, all of those are opportunities 1:35:28.600 --> 1:35:29.960 to build a character as well. 1:35:30.400 --> 1:35:32.839 And I love scripting that type of stuff. 1:35:32.880 --> 1:35:35.479 And it's it's kind of the backdrop so that like, 1:35:35.720 --> 1:35:37.879 because you know, I do want to write like emotionally 1:35:37.920 --> 1:35:40.280 laid in work, and so if people are sitting and 1:35:40.320 --> 1:35:42.400 having a deep discussion, like what are the other things 1:35:42.400 --> 1:35:45.280 that they can be doing? You know in Rosie's you know, 1:35:45.680 --> 1:35:50.360 uh comic, the food the food preparation scene, right, yeah, 1:35:49.800 --> 1:35:52.920 the Miyazaki nod of like somebody making food in the 1:35:52.960 --> 1:35:54.280 background while they're having a conversation. 1:35:54.360 --> 1:35:55.200 I love that type of thing. 1:35:55.680 --> 1:35:58.880 Yeah. For me, I think one of the biggest. 1:36:00.160 --> 1:36:02.200 Lessons I need to learn in my own writing was 1:36:02.520 --> 1:36:06.280 my own tendency to uh love my characters and want 1:36:06.280 --> 1:36:08.240 to protect them too much. You know, you always hear, 1:36:08.400 --> 1:36:10.880 oh love all your characters, even even the bad, even 1:36:10.880 --> 1:36:12.720 the villains. You know, you have to empathize with you 1:36:13.160 --> 1:36:15.800 And so my the way that that manifested in my 1:36:15.840 --> 1:36:18.639 own work was that I don't want anything to. 1:36:18.600 --> 1:36:20.840 Happen to them. I want you to just be protected, 1:36:21.880 --> 1:36:26.479 just like, yeah, you know, and and what what you know? 1:36:26.520 --> 1:36:29.040 How does that translated translate to nothing happens? It's boring. 1:36:29.520 --> 1:36:32.880 Were there anyone like that for you, where you're like, oh, god, 1:36:33.040 --> 1:36:36.040 I I have to I have to be mean to 1:36:36.160 --> 1:36:38.439 this creation that I love a little bit. 1:36:38.479 --> 1:36:41.280 I have to be willing to be mean to them. Yeah. 1:36:41.360 --> 1:36:42.719 Oh, that's such a good question. 1:36:42.960 --> 1:36:45.519 So, first of all, my dream in life is to 1:36:46.280 --> 1:36:49.080 have the cachet as a creator to produce work in 1:36:49.080 --> 1:36:50.400 which truly nothing happens. 1:36:50.520 --> 1:36:53.360 A dream that's the ultimate dream dreams. 1:36:53.680 --> 1:36:58.320 Yeah, yeah, I'm a big I'm a Miyazaki stand and 1:36:58.360 --> 1:37:01.360 so like you know, I love of Miyazaki films in 1:37:01.400 --> 1:37:02.720 which like, truly. 1:37:02.439 --> 1:37:03.680 Not a lot happens. 1:37:04.160 --> 1:37:07.519 You know, there's there's the there's the polar opposite, which 1:37:07.560 --> 1:37:09.479 is the Miyazaki film in which like seven hundred things 1:37:09.479 --> 1:37:13.160 happened that you don't really understand me. You know, I've 1:37:13.160 --> 1:37:16.120 seen Princess Mononoke, like, you know, infinite times. I think 1:37:16.160 --> 1:37:17.559 the last time I saw it, I was like, cool, 1:37:17.560 --> 1:37:20.240 I think I'm up to a strong seventy five percent 1:37:20.280 --> 1:37:21.120 of understanding what. 1:37:21.280 --> 1:37:21.800 Is going on. 1:37:23.240 --> 1:37:25.360 But the episode of that is where it's just like, yeah, 1:37:25.439 --> 1:37:28.040 you know, like you like Kiki, she worked at a bakery, 1:37:28.320 --> 1:37:30.400 and then like there was a rare you know, like 1:37:30.520 --> 1:37:34.360 very minimal content. I aspire, I aspire, but until I 1:37:34.360 --> 1:37:37.120 get to that point, I think, you know, I got 1:37:37.120 --> 1:37:39.640 in a one of the few times I've had like 1:37:39.720 --> 1:37:43.320 a minor, respectful disagreement with somebody on the creative side, 1:37:43.479 --> 1:37:48.760 and Marvel Comics was the this person who was not 1:37:48.800 --> 1:37:51.160 an editor, who was a you know, kind of higher 1:37:51.200 --> 1:37:56.080 up person, uh, really wanting me to kill some characters. 1:37:56.120 --> 1:37:59.519 And you know, I was kind of like, what are 1:37:59.560 --> 1:38:04.120 the other ways that we can have stakes? 1:38:04.400 --> 1:38:04.599 Right? 1:38:04.680 --> 1:38:07.320 And so it's true, you can't just have nothing happening, 1:38:07.600 --> 1:38:09.559 But I think that some of our assumptions about what 1:38:09.640 --> 1:38:13.280 constitutes stakes are sometimes wrong, right, And so the question 1:38:13.400 --> 1:38:16.640 is like, what are the you know, to quote she Hulk, like, 1:38:16.640 --> 1:38:19.439 those aren't mistakes, right, Like, what are the stakes that 1:38:19.479 --> 1:38:22.320 matter for that character? And I think for somebody, you know, 1:38:22.360 --> 1:38:24.800 for somebody like re Rea just you know, since we're 1:38:24.800 --> 1:38:25.519 talking about. 1:38:25.280 --> 1:38:28.440 Her, the stakes of. 1:38:28.240 --> 1:38:31.120 Like getting into a fight are not always the highest stakes, 1:38:31.200 --> 1:38:33.840 right for her, the journey that I wanted to take 1:38:33.880 --> 1:38:36.080 her on in that solo title is really like very 1:38:36.080 --> 1:38:42.280 emotional and so like being wrong, exploring your own inner 1:38:42.800 --> 1:38:46.200 foolishness that you haven't really dealt with, being nice to 1:38:46.240 --> 1:38:50.320 other people, listening to other people, taking advice, asking for help, right, Like, 1:38:50.560 --> 1:38:54.000 those things are also really big moments for some characters. 1:38:54.000 --> 1:38:55.960 And so the question is how do you take the 1:38:56.000 --> 1:38:59.000 audience or the reader on a journey where they're bought 1:38:59.040 --> 1:39:00.080 in the body? 1:39:00.240 --> 1:39:01.920 You know, I don't know if you guys watched The Bear? 1:39:02.000 --> 1:39:02.599 Did you watch The Bear? 1:39:02.680 --> 1:39:05.679 Yeah, I'm a huge, huge. 1:39:06.000 --> 1:39:09.479 Ten incredible. I spent a lot of my time before 1:39:09.520 --> 1:39:12.840 I moved to America working in bars and restaurants, so 1:39:12.880 --> 1:39:15.439 it was like, I was like this the representation I 1:39:15.439 --> 1:39:18.559 wanted was like, it's ship to work and recapture that 1:39:18.760 --> 1:39:24.640 it captured that frenetic there's an emergency, there is another emergency. 1:39:24.880 --> 1:39:28.560 Now there's another emergency, and people need to get fed also. 1:39:28.840 --> 1:39:30.559 And it's a little I think it's a little triggering 1:39:30.600 --> 1:39:32.479 for people who've worked in the restaurant industry. You know, 1:39:32.560 --> 1:39:34.599 it's like, but but you know, one of my favorites, 1:39:34.600 --> 1:39:36.480 so folks should watch. I think it's just an amazingly 1:39:36.520 --> 1:39:38.120 written piece of media. I also think it's one of 1:39:38.120 --> 1:39:40.439 the best things to take place in Chicago, like ever written. 1:39:40.439 --> 1:39:41.080 It's really good. 1:39:41.400 --> 1:39:43.599 But you know, I think one of my favorite scenes 1:39:43.680 --> 1:39:46.280 is like the scene of these two characters Sidney and 1:39:46.320 --> 1:39:48.720 Marcus at the end right towards the end of the 1:39:48.880 --> 1:39:51.240 first season. This is not like a major spoiler, but 1:39:52.120 --> 1:39:54.759 you know, Sidney has basically just like done the George 1:39:54.760 --> 1:39:57.160 Costanz equivalent of like sitting in the slushy machine, like 1:39:57.160 --> 1:39:59.120 like when you have an epic quit, like an epic 1:39:59.200 --> 1:40:02.160 quitting when you're like I quit on this in this 1:40:02.320 --> 1:40:06.120 like amazing like burn every bridgeway and this tension of 1:40:06.160 --> 1:40:07.280 like is she gonna go back? 1:40:07.280 --> 1:40:08.960 Like can she go back to the restaurant? Right? 1:40:09.240 --> 1:40:11.320 And to me, when I think about that show, which 1:40:11.360 --> 1:40:14.760 is so wildly frenetic and stressful, like, to me, that's 1:40:14.760 --> 1:40:17.880 one of the highest stakes moments of the season is 1:40:18.120 --> 1:40:19.880 because all of us have felt that thing where like 1:40:20.439 --> 1:40:22.360 we we went out with a bang, and then we 1:40:22.400 --> 1:40:24.639 look back and we're like, yo, I was kind of wrong, 1:40:26.880 --> 1:40:31.280 Like I honestly was like maybe really wrong and really 1:40:31.360 --> 1:40:34.880 and like am I gonna go back and tell people like, yo, 1:40:35.000 --> 1:40:38.280 I was wrong and try to salvage that. That's so cringey. 1:40:38.400 --> 1:40:41.479 It's like so uncomfortable to even talk about. So yeah, 1:40:41.520 --> 1:40:43.880 I think that the question of like, you know, kill 1:40:43.920 --> 1:40:48.080 your darlings like sometimes that's that's not literally murdering right now. 1:40:48.280 --> 1:40:48.479 Yeah. 1:40:48.520 --> 1:40:51.280 Yeah, And you know, Sali Nama said this to me. 1:40:51.360 --> 1:40:53.400 He was like, at this point, you know, people dying 1:40:53.400 --> 1:40:55.040 in comics is also like not that high. 1:40:55.240 --> 1:40:56.160 I was gonna say that. 1:40:57.200 --> 1:41:01.400 Like everybody comes back, so big a challenges to find 1:41:01.520 --> 1:41:03.719 stakes the feel real. 1:41:04.080 --> 1:41:04.559 George R. 1:41:04.600 --> 1:41:07.559 Martin is like, comic stopped being good. When people stop being. 1:41:09.479 --> 1:41:12.160 He's still like he's feared of Uncle Ben coming back 1:41:12.240 --> 1:41:14.560 that will be the true most people. 1:41:14.280 --> 1:41:16.160 And make them dead. He's like, just kill them and 1:41:16.200 --> 1:41:16.760 let them be dead. 1:41:16.800 --> 1:41:19.160 Come on, bro come on broh. I mean that's the 1:41:19.360 --> 1:41:24.559 ultimate comic book conundrum. So I think that's quite yeah, 1:41:24.680 --> 1:41:27.519 quite ironic that that was a note, you know, the 1:41:27.560 --> 1:41:29.160 idea that you had to kill people for it to 1:41:29.160 --> 1:41:31.720 be real. I'm like, oh, they'll be back, they'll be back, 1:41:32.800 --> 1:41:36.120 They'll be right. And then kind of like what was 1:41:36.160 --> 1:41:39.920 it like for you to go from this space of 1:41:40.040 --> 1:41:44.400 seeing getting to know really as a writer, but also 1:41:44.720 --> 1:41:47.120 as a comic book fan and in this art space 1:41:47.760 --> 1:41:50.759 to then you know, this is one of the quickest, 1:41:50.760 --> 1:41:55.000 if not the quickest transitions of being introduced in twenty sixteen, 1:41:55.360 --> 1:41:59.800 getting a solo series twenty eighteen, being in the MCUI 1:42:00.120 --> 1:42:01.720 she appears. 1:42:02.520 --> 1:42:04.680 It's amazing, It's amazing. 1:42:04.840 --> 1:42:08.040 So how does it feel then to not just be 1:42:08.200 --> 1:42:11.640 creating her Storians seeing it on the page, but to 1:42:11.800 --> 1:42:14.360 then go to the premiere to see it on the 1:42:14.400 --> 1:42:17.479 screen and to see Dominique Tholn just absolutely smash it. 1:42:18.160 --> 1:42:20.000 Oh yeah, Well, first of all, is this a spoiler? 1:42:20.160 --> 1:42:21.439 Is a spoiler friendly situation? 1:42:21.680 --> 1:42:21.840 Right? 1:42:21.880 --> 1:42:24.200 Yeh yeah, yeah, this is a spoiler note? 1:42:24.479 --> 1:42:25.920 Okay, cool? Cool? Yeah. 1:42:26.040 --> 1:42:28.400 I mean so, first of all, on a practical level, 1:42:29.200 --> 1:42:31.680 I've spent the last four years of my life perfecting 1:42:31.760 --> 1:42:35.400 the uh who is Ironheartshpiel for that I have to 1:42:35.439 --> 1:42:38.160 give to people, which now has morphed into the who 1:42:38.200 --> 1:42:42.000 is Monica Rambo? 1:42:44.000 --> 1:42:45.160 And you know, just like to. 1:42:45.120 --> 1:42:47.040 Tell people, you know, tell people in thirty seconds before 1:42:47.080 --> 1:42:49.799 their eyes glaze over, you know, like this is a character. 1:42:50.120 --> 1:42:52.519 Brian Michael Bendis Miles Morales. 1:42:52.560 --> 1:42:55.720 You probably Brian. 1:42:55.680 --> 1:42:56.320 It's that guy. 1:42:56.479 --> 1:42:58.880 Okay, so iron Man, you know who that is and 1:42:59.439 --> 1:43:01.640 the protoce, but then not the same and at that 1:43:01.680 --> 1:43:05.120 point the person is like walked away. And so what 1:43:05.160 --> 1:43:07.200 I'm really excited about is just like being able to 1:43:07.240 --> 1:43:08.800 say iron Heart to people and then being like cool, 1:43:08.840 --> 1:43:14.240 I know that is without like this long drawn out explanation. Also, 1:43:14.360 --> 1:43:16.519 usually at the end of that explanation, somebody turns to 1:43:16.560 --> 1:43:18.000 their friend and they're like, yeah, this is eve she 1:43:18.040 --> 1:43:19.280 wrote iron Man in the movies. 1:43:19.320 --> 1:43:21.919 I'm like, no, that's not that's not how it happened. 1:43:23.080 --> 1:43:27.320 And comics literacy is still like very low in our society. 1:43:27.400 --> 1:43:29.559 So yeah, that also keeps me humble. One of my 1:43:29.560 --> 1:43:31.720 best friends when I when I started writing iron Heart, 1:43:31.800 --> 1:43:34.880 she said to me, this is a person, brilliant, person, amazed, 1:43:34.880 --> 1:43:37.160 she has a PhD, you know, like amazing person. 1:43:37.680 --> 1:43:38.240 Well read. 1:43:38.400 --> 1:43:42.240 She's like, she's like, I was unaware that they were 1:43:42.320 --> 1:43:46.479 still making new superheroes. Yeah, She's like, you were like, 1:43:46.760 --> 1:43:49.760 She's like, you know, I thought, like, there's Batman, there's 1:43:49.800 --> 1:43:52.559 Spider Man, and I thought, like, you know, they're like 1:43:52.600 --> 1:43:55.160 she thought it was like a canonical like decision we 1:43:55.240 --> 1:43:58.280 have and we're just to you know, I'm like, first, 1:43:58.400 --> 1:44:01.000 you know, we have new Pokemon, Like there's like things 1:44:01.040 --> 1:44:03.320 don't anything that has IP that's not like you know, 1:44:03.320 --> 1:44:07.200 we just have so so honestly, like just the I 1:44:07.280 --> 1:44:09.600 love this character so much and she's very real to 1:44:09.640 --> 1:44:12.760 me in a probably weird way, and so yeah, like 1:44:12.920 --> 1:44:16.120 just to know that she's gonna be visible to so 1:44:16.160 --> 1:44:20.920 many other people is really exciting and frankly completely unreal 1:44:20.960 --> 1:44:23.720 for me. And then honestly being at the premiere, Like, 1:44:23.760 --> 1:44:26.280 first of all, it was my first Hollywood premiere, and 1:44:26.360 --> 1:44:28.920 so it was just like surreal in a number of ways. 1:44:29.800 --> 1:44:33.200 Rihanna sat rows behind us, wow. 1:44:33.400 --> 1:44:35.519 Like like directly behind those so that I could not 1:44:35.600 --> 1:44:39.280 see her unless I turned my entire body, and throughout 1:44:39.280 --> 1:44:42.559 the whole time, my husband was like Rihanna's eating popcorn, 1:44:42.600 --> 1:44:49.320 like he was like all of Rihanna's activities. To me, 1:44:49.360 --> 1:44:52.679 I was like, okay, thank you, but yeah, I thought 1:44:52.800 --> 1:44:55.240 I'm a big crier and I thought I was going 1:44:55.320 --> 1:44:58.160 to cry a lot when she first appeared on screen, 1:44:58.640 --> 1:45:02.120 and instead I was like, like so filled with the 1:45:02.120 --> 1:45:05.160 most unspeakable joy that I can't even describe to you. 1:45:05.280 --> 1:45:05.960 I was so. 1:45:06.760 --> 1:45:12.640 Happy and I sat behind right behind Reginald Hudlin, you 1:45:12.640 --> 1:45:15.280 know who for folks who don't know, is both Hollywood 1:45:15.320 --> 1:45:18.000 like Black Film Icon and made like House Party and Boomerang, 1:45:18.200 --> 1:45:20.479 but also had a pretty good run on Black Panther 1:45:20.520 --> 1:45:25.639 and the two comics Writer and And when Reary first 1:45:25.680 --> 1:45:28.879 appeared on screen, he turned around, uh and and grabbed 1:45:28.920 --> 1:45:30.000 my hand and he goes. 1:45:29.880 --> 1:45:39.280 Oh, He's like, that's what the fuck I'm talking about. 1:45:36.479 --> 1:45:40.240 Like totally long. And I was like, yeah, I love 1:45:40.320 --> 1:45:42.040 that and cool, Yeah. 1:45:43.120 --> 1:45:46.439 That was very cool. And and and Bendis was there 1:45:46.520 --> 1:45:47.200 in the same row. 1:45:47.240 --> 1:45:49.920 And the other thing I'll share is that, like, I 1:45:50.000 --> 1:45:52.320 think this is okay to say, like he he was 1:45:52.360 --> 1:45:54.120 sitting in front and like a little to the left 1:45:54.160 --> 1:45:56.200 of me, and and before the and we'd actually never 1:45:56.200 --> 1:45:57.040 met in person before. 1:45:57.080 --> 1:45:58.280 Oh wow. 1:45:58.600 --> 1:46:00.839 And so you know, I went over and I introduced 1:46:00.840 --> 1:46:04.720 myself to him, and he he shook my hand and 1:46:04.720 --> 1:46:09.040 he said, you're the reason we're all here. And that 1:46:09.160 --> 1:46:12.720 was like very I think, very just very moving and 1:46:12.840 --> 1:46:16.080 very generous. And you know, I think for him to 1:46:16.080 --> 1:46:18.080 be able to say that, yeah, it was just it 1:46:18.160 --> 1:46:21.160 was it was really kind. And I think that part 1:46:21.200 --> 1:46:24.400 of the fun and wild thing is like none of 1:46:24.479 --> 1:46:27.479 us own these characters, right, Like the that's the other 1:46:27.520 --> 1:46:29.880 thing where people don't understand, like I'm not making. 1:46:29.680 --> 1:46:38.840 Like your character making dollars. Yeah, I do not on 1:46:38.960 --> 1:46:39.640 this ip, you know. 1:46:40.520 --> 1:46:43.400 But so I think part of the like beauty, the 1:46:44.000 --> 1:46:47.000 hard part and the beautiful part is like you have 1:46:47.120 --> 1:46:47.439 a turn. 1:46:47.479 --> 1:46:48.200 You get to take your. 1:46:48.120 --> 1:46:51.400 Turn, right, Like you know, Brian invented something and made 1:46:51.479 --> 1:46:52.960 something and then I got. 1:46:52.840 --> 1:46:55.120 To take my turn and that was really really special. 1:46:56.080 --> 1:46:59.439 And then you know, Coogler and Dominique are taking their turn, 1:46:59.520 --> 1:47:02.639 and the Disney Plus series comes Shanakahad, who's an amazing 1:47:02.720 --> 1:47:05.560 writer who I actually who was also a poet, so 1:47:05.680 --> 1:47:07.640 who I actually knew prior to her taking on. 1:47:08.479 --> 1:47:10.719 Yeah, it's great, like poets are out here doing stuff. 1:47:11.640 --> 1:47:14.120 Yeah, Like everybody gets to take their turn, you know, 1:47:14.240 --> 1:47:16.320 And I think that that's I think that's hard for 1:47:16.439 --> 1:47:20.280 some people. But it's really really cool too. It's really 1:47:20.360 --> 1:47:24.360 cool to see where people take something. And I'm I'm 1:47:24.439 --> 1:47:26.960 lucky enough that I am a consultant on the on 1:47:27.080 --> 1:47:30.519 the TV show and so you know that means like 1:47:31.040 --> 1:47:32.599 I made a lot of notes and they can take 1:47:32.640 --> 1:47:36.280 it or leave it. But something that Kelly Studiconic said 1:47:36.280 --> 1:47:38.880 to me, is like, for us as comics writers, when 1:47:38.920 --> 1:47:41.680 we see the stuff on screen, our job is not 1:47:41.840 --> 1:47:45.719 to litigate every kind of like biographical detail of the character, 1:47:45.880 --> 1:47:47.680 but to do our best to try to protect the 1:47:47.760 --> 1:47:48.880 core of who the character is. 1:47:50.600 --> 1:47:53.519 And that's what I you know, that's what I'm hoping 1:47:53.600 --> 1:47:54.280 to be able to do. 1:47:54.680 --> 1:47:57.840 And I like, if I had, you know, if somebody 1:47:57.880 --> 1:48:00.120 had told all of us fifteen years ago, there's to 1:48:00.160 --> 1:48:02.640 be a Spider Man movie and yeah, this Spider Man 1:48:02.680 --> 1:48:06.320 has no uncle Ben, right, we would be like what boo, right, 1:48:06.439 --> 1:48:09.600 Like that's yeah, But it turns out like that's not 1:48:09.920 --> 1:48:12.280 what makes him Spider Man, right as it turns out 1:48:12.400 --> 1:48:14.920 like we we would never have known that unless somebody 1:48:14.960 --> 1:48:17.599 made that choice on screen. So anyway, now I'm rambling, 1:48:17.680 --> 1:48:20.040 but yeah, it's been it's been wild. And Dominique is 1:48:20.080 --> 1:48:23.599 a is a star and I really want every amazing 1:48:23.640 --> 1:48:26.640 thing for her. She's incredible and I hope people love 1:48:26.720 --> 1:48:27.559 seeing her on screen. 1:48:30.080 --> 1:48:31.040 Do you you mentioned that? 1:48:32.000 --> 1:48:34.960 Uh, the the ownership aspect, like the fact that these 1:48:35.000 --> 1:48:38.799 are characters who come into your custody for a period 1:48:38.840 --> 1:48:41.960 of time. What's that like to be part of this broader, 1:48:42.240 --> 1:48:47.200 larger conversation, you know, almost like this huge wall in 1:48:47.280 --> 1:48:49.519 a public space that you get to write something on 1:48:49.600 --> 1:48:50.680 and then walk away from. 1:48:50.760 --> 1:48:52.439 And there, Yeah, I always hear people. 1:48:52.280 --> 1:48:56.600 Get up and yeah, I wonder, you know, just you know, philosophically, 1:48:56.720 --> 1:48:58.479 what does that what does that feel like? And what 1:48:58.560 --> 1:49:00.880 do you and what role do you think that plays 1:49:00.920 --> 1:49:04.240 in this kind of like broader, vast conversation that is 1:49:04.400 --> 1:49:06.360 now you know the MCU. 1:49:07.320 --> 1:49:09.800 Yeah, I think there's a cynical read on that, and 1:49:09.920 --> 1:49:12.200 there's like an idealistic read on it. And depending on 1:49:12.520 --> 1:49:14.680 the day that you catch me, I have I have 1:49:14.840 --> 1:49:19.280 felt both poor and everything in between. You know, I'm 1:49:19.280 --> 1:49:21.400 an idealist again, you know, I wrote I wrote Marvel 1:49:21.439 --> 1:49:25.280 Team Up, which is a mini series featuring Kamala and Peter, 1:49:26.680 --> 1:49:29.400 and I went with the classic. It's a three issue 1:49:29.400 --> 1:49:32.000 mini series, so I was like, bet body swap right, 1:49:34.720 --> 1:49:37.960 Kamala becomes Peter, Peter becomes Kamala. Don't think about it 1:49:38.040 --> 1:49:42.760 too hard, just let's just let's go. That Also, by 1:49:42.800 --> 1:49:44.280 the way, was one of the few moments where I've 1:49:44.280 --> 1:49:47.320 also had a back and forth with editorial because uh, 1:49:47.479 --> 1:49:51.640 there's a scene where Peter Peter's and Kamala's body and 1:49:51.680 --> 1:49:54.840 he's at school and uh, he thinks he has she 1:49:54.840 --> 1:49:57.360 has this big presentation and she's like, don't ruin this 1:49:57.439 --> 1:49:59.519 for me, and he's like, yo, I'm like a scientist, 1:49:59.560 --> 1:50:01.839 like I'm in a kill your high school bio presentation, 1:50:01.960 --> 1:50:04.280 Like don't even worry about it. And he gets to 1:50:04.400 --> 1:50:06.720 class and immediately is like, oh my god, I'm dying. 1:50:06.800 --> 1:50:09.880 Something horrible is happening to me, Like I'm being this 1:50:09.960 --> 1:50:13.000 is like biological warfare, and she has to be taken 1:50:13.040 --> 1:50:15.400 out of class. And then later on there's a scene 1:50:15.439 --> 1:50:17.680 of them sitting, you know, looking over the city and 1:50:17.760 --> 1:50:19.800 she's like, you had a cramp, Like those are that's 1:50:20.040 --> 1:50:22.400 that's cramps right like, and he's like I thought I 1:50:22.479 --> 1:50:25.720 was gonna die, right So so that was that was 1:50:25.760 --> 1:50:29.240 a moment where the word the word cramp was cannot appear, 1:50:29.840 --> 1:50:31.200 so we can we can unpack that later. 1:50:31.280 --> 1:50:36.920 But anyway, so yeah, classic, so but yeah. 1:50:36.760 --> 1:50:39.760 So when I was writing that series, literally I would 1:50:39.800 --> 1:50:41.880 I would wake up, I'd brush my teeth, I'd look 1:50:41.920 --> 1:50:45.639 in the mirror, and I would be like, I write words, 1:50:46.240 --> 1:50:50.439 and Spider Man says those like it's just like the 1:50:50.520 --> 1:50:53.160 basic fact of that, like, you know, I would go 1:50:53.240 --> 1:50:55.120 in the kitchen and grab my husband and be like, honey, 1:50:55.840 --> 1:50:58.760 I say the words and then they come out of 1:50:58.840 --> 1:51:01.880 Spider Man's mouth like I am the I have I 1:51:01.960 --> 1:51:04.320 am the person who has the power to be the 1:51:04.400 --> 1:51:07.599 vector of Spider Man, and that like like Spider Man 1:51:07.840 --> 1:51:11.760 like maybe the most recognizable iconic pop culture figure like 1:51:12.040 --> 1:51:16.160 possibly ever, you know, and so like on on moments 1:51:16.160 --> 1:51:19.280 when I feel idealistic about it, that's really magical. And 1:51:19.680 --> 1:51:23.400 and also I think being part of the community of creators, 1:51:23.760 --> 1:51:25.679 you know, to have to have phone calls with people, 1:51:25.880 --> 1:51:30.880 you know, when when Danny Lord took over Champions, like 1:51:30.920 --> 1:51:33.559 having those conversations with Danny, right, having conversations with Vita, 1:51:33.920 --> 1:51:38.840 having conversations with SOLIDI, you know, amazing, you know, like Okay, 1:51:38.880 --> 1:51:39.519 what are you doing. 1:51:39.400 --> 1:51:40.040 With Miles here? 1:51:40.120 --> 1:51:42.800 What are we doing in Champions you know Evan or 1:51:43.000 --> 1:51:45.800 like any any folks where we're crossing over things. It's 1:51:45.880 --> 1:51:47.519 really fun to be like, all right, what are you 1:51:47.560 --> 1:51:49.479 doing in your sandbox? And how can I make sure 1:51:49.520 --> 1:51:51.000 this matches up to my sandbox? 1:51:51.520 --> 1:51:51.680 You know. 1:51:51.760 --> 1:51:52.679 The cynical read. 1:51:52.560 --> 1:51:56.040 Of it is like, uh, it's a super bazillion Defolfilion, 1:51:56.080 --> 1:52:00.280 Dy Dollar Mega Corporation. Yeah, uh that you know, I 1:52:00.600 --> 1:52:06.040 produce really good work sometimes and and that, yeah that 1:52:06.200 --> 1:52:11.040 creators have no uh, not only compensation financially, but like 1:52:11.479 --> 1:52:14.439 even just like acknowledgment, right, giving a little fuzzy sometimes, 1:52:14.960 --> 1:52:16.840 and you know, you all have talked a lot about it, 1:52:16.920 --> 1:52:19.280 and folks can google the horror stories of just like 1:52:20.000 --> 1:52:23.760 I've definitely had the experience of sitting in a you know, 1:52:23.880 --> 1:52:26.639 not not with Black Panther, but with other Marvel stuff, 1:52:26.720 --> 1:52:28.840 Like sitting in a theater watching a movie that I 1:52:28.920 --> 1:52:31.120 know is going to make a bazillion d dollars. 1:52:30.880 --> 1:52:33.680 And being like that is that my was that a 1:52:33.760 --> 1:52:36.840 thing from my brand? And that's a bad feeling, you know, 1:52:36.880 --> 1:52:37.639 it's a bad feeling. 1:52:38.560 --> 1:52:40.599 It's also a bad feeling I think with the way 1:52:40.680 --> 1:52:42.519 some of the TV stuff has panned out. I think 1:52:42.640 --> 1:52:45.320 for some of the writers in that room, right, the 1:52:45.439 --> 1:52:47.880 ways that the writer's room on the TV shows are 1:52:48.160 --> 1:52:50.680 are very different from traditional writers rooms, and some of 1:52:50.800 --> 1:52:54.040 the hierarchy of power and control and decision making is 1:52:54.080 --> 1:52:55.760 really different, and I think that's been a struggle for 1:52:56.120 --> 1:52:59.560 some folks. So, you know, I think that the like 1:52:59.720 --> 1:53:02.599 I try to maintain a healthy reality somewhere in the middle. 1:53:02.760 --> 1:53:04.760 And you know, maybe one day I'll just go full 1:53:04.800 --> 1:53:05.720 Alan Moore and just. 1:53:07.640 --> 1:53:08.080 Expire. 1:53:08.360 --> 1:53:10.000 Yeah, but that's fine. 1:53:10.080 --> 1:53:12.200 You know, maybe maybe I'll get there, but for now, 1:53:12.240 --> 1:53:14.360 it's still fun. And I also, to be honest with you, 1:53:14.800 --> 1:53:16.640 I have a huge privilege of like, I have a 1:53:16.720 --> 1:53:19.479 regular day job. I'm a professor at a university. 1:53:19.640 --> 1:53:19.760 Right. 1:53:20.080 --> 1:53:23.000 I had a whole other writing career before comics, and 1:53:23.040 --> 1:53:25.200 I have a whole other writing career outside of comics. 1:53:25.520 --> 1:53:27.719 And that's also an immense privilege that makes it easy 1:53:27.800 --> 1:53:29.880 for me to be like, Okay, cool, I'm doing this 1:53:30.040 --> 1:53:32.400 and not that, or I don't feel comfortable with this, 1:53:32.479 --> 1:53:33.760 or I feel achy about it, so I'm going to 1:53:33.800 --> 1:53:34.280 step away. 1:53:34.680 --> 1:53:36.439 And a lot of folks in this industry don't have that, 1:53:36.680 --> 1:53:36.840 you know. 1:53:37.520 --> 1:53:39.840 And and so that's why the creator own space and 1:53:40.280 --> 1:53:42.160 you know, Kickstarter projects and all that kind of stuff 1:53:42.200 --> 1:53:42.879 is really important. 1:53:42.920 --> 1:53:45.200 And I hope that for folks. If you go and 1:53:45.280 --> 1:53:46.920 you read a big two comic by. 1:53:46.920 --> 1:53:50.400 A writer and artist that you absolutely love, like look 1:53:50.479 --> 1:53:53.120 them up and sign up for their newsletter and follow 1:53:53.160 --> 1:53:56.400 them on their socials and you know, pledge their Kickstarter thing. 1:53:56.479 --> 1:53:59.200 And buy their creator own thing because that's it's called 1:53:59.280 --> 1:54:01.200 creator own because that's what it is, right Like, that's 1:54:01.240 --> 1:54:04.000 the thing that they actually control and can can make 1:54:04.080 --> 1:54:07.519 money off of. So yeah, I think it's it's it's tough, 1:54:07.560 --> 1:54:11.360 and I think it's important to not be so idealistic 1:54:11.400 --> 1:54:12.760 about it, to not be honest. 1:54:12.680 --> 1:54:15.040 That yeah, I think and I think you really summed 1:54:15.120 --> 1:54:18.200 up the two most intrinsic things about making like what 1:54:18.320 --> 1:54:21.040 we call work for higher comics, which is, yeah, we 1:54:21.520 --> 1:54:23.639 want to tell the best story and you put everything 1:54:23.680 --> 1:54:27.840 into it, and the companies know that you have that 1:54:28.000 --> 1:54:32.520 excitement of right Spider or you know, writing Godzilla something 1:54:32.720 --> 1:54:35.760 that you love like, and they are aware that you 1:54:35.840 --> 1:54:38.440 will say, Okay, I'm going to sign away any ownership 1:54:38.520 --> 1:54:40.160 of this because I would love to do it. 1:54:40.280 --> 1:54:40.560 It's it. 1:54:40.760 --> 1:54:41.280 That's the. 1:54:43.320 --> 1:54:46.800 Historically, that is the exchange that has been made between 1:54:46.840 --> 1:54:49.640 the two, and I live every day to hopefully try 1:54:49.680 --> 1:54:53.400 and make that change or evolve from the way. 1:54:53.320 --> 1:54:53.720 That it was. 1:54:53.840 --> 1:54:56.560 There was a time in superho comics where that was 1:54:56.720 --> 1:55:02.160 not the base level. That was something that came around 1:55:02.320 --> 1:55:05.240 relatively recently in like the seventies when that sort of 1:55:05.280 --> 1:55:07.280 became a thing. So yeah, I think you summed out. 1:55:07.360 --> 1:55:10.280 But it's it's that really interesting thing because you know, 1:55:10.360 --> 1:55:12.520 I'm like, I won't come mix to union eyes. We 1:55:12.640 --> 1:55:14.960 told all the time about creative rights, but I'm also like, yeah, 1:55:15.040 --> 1:55:16.800 we'll write a fucking X Men book. 1:55:17.000 --> 1:55:20.800 Like I'll do it, like I I will do it, right. 1:55:21.040 --> 1:55:25.320 I will literally write the softball X Men mini series 1:55:25.480 --> 1:55:27.440 like high to me and I and then I'll write 1:55:27.440 --> 1:55:29.240 something into the book about unions or something. 1:55:29.480 --> 1:55:30.600 Yeah, right, right, But. 1:55:30.720 --> 1:55:32.600 How the softball team is actually just a metaphor for 1:55:32.640 --> 1:55:36.000 the union, Yeah, exactly, No, it's totally it's totally real. 1:55:36.080 --> 1:55:39.080 And I think, like, you know, to a certain extent, 1:55:39.280 --> 1:55:41.600 I mean, I'm comfortable saying publicly like this is the 1:55:41.720 --> 1:55:43.600 least financially lucrative thing I could. 1:55:43.440 --> 1:55:47.160 Be doing time, Like I pretty much pretty much do 1:55:47.240 --> 1:55:47.640 it for fun. 1:55:48.480 --> 1:55:50.880 And but not only that, I mean, like, you know, 1:55:51.560 --> 1:55:54.600 the impact, the cultural impact that you get to have 1:55:54.960 --> 1:55:56.000 is just really tremendous. 1:55:56.280 --> 1:55:58.400 And I think that it's for me. 1:55:58.520 --> 1:56:02.040 It's just important to understand what my values are and 1:56:02.200 --> 1:56:05.000 what I want to do. And you know, I've I've 1:56:05.080 --> 1:56:08.640 said no to a bunch of Marvel stuff because I 1:56:08.800 --> 1:56:10.880 wasn't excited about it or I wanted somebody else to 1:56:10.920 --> 1:56:13.120 get an opportunity or you know. And I think the 1:56:13.240 --> 1:56:16.480 main thing is like just just recognizing that the thing, 1:56:16.920 --> 1:56:19.440 the thing being inherently exciting or a big honor doesn't 1:56:19.440 --> 1:56:21.760 mean it's exciting or a big honor for you, yeah, right, 1:56:21.840 --> 1:56:24.000 and doesn't mean it's always a good move for you 1:56:24.240 --> 1:56:26.840 and for your time, calculus and for your you know, 1:56:27.240 --> 1:56:29.360 way you want to make your money. And I think 1:56:29.440 --> 1:56:31.840 that that's yeah, like not letting the kind of glitz 1:56:31.880 --> 1:56:34.480 and glamour of the name recognition get you in a 1:56:34.520 --> 1:56:37.800 spot where you're like making stuff that you're not getting 1:56:37.800 --> 1:56:39.240 paid in a way that makes sense for your life. 1:56:39.800 --> 1:56:40.000 Yeah. 1:56:40.840 --> 1:56:43.920 Someone recently told me the creatively there's a huge power 1:56:43.960 --> 1:56:45.400 and no, and that is the truth. 1:56:46.920 --> 1:56:48.720 It's best even anything to plug. 1:56:48.960 --> 1:56:50.720 Yes, I would like to plug a couple of things 1:56:51.160 --> 1:56:56.200 coming December. Photon Monica Rambo Photon number one, featuring an 1:56:56.240 --> 1:56:59.080 amazing black woman. If you don't know Monica Rambo, get 1:56:59.160 --> 1:57:02.760 to know her. She's incredible. Used to be the leader 1:57:02.760 --> 1:57:05.320 of the Avengers. Now she's trying to figure out her life. 1:57:05.960 --> 1:57:07.960 I've been telling people, if you are like an old 1:57:08.000 --> 1:57:10.800 school Marvel fan or if you are a person who 1:57:11.640 --> 1:57:13.720 feels like you're that underappreciated person in your life, but 1:57:13.760 --> 1:57:15.440 you've never read a comic book before, like, this is 1:57:15.480 --> 1:57:18.400 a comic that you will relate to. It's about trying 1:57:18.400 --> 1:57:22.080 to figure yourself out and it's really great. And then 1:57:22.360 --> 1:57:25.520 coming March twenty twenty three, my first ever graphic novel 1:57:26.120 --> 1:57:28.560 called Change the Game, which I co wrote with Colin Kaepernick, 1:57:29.160 --> 1:57:33.200 and it is coming out on Scholastic in March twenty 1:57:33.360 --> 1:57:33.920 twenty three. 1:57:34.160 --> 1:57:36.960 And for the young adult or the young adult at 1:57:37.000 --> 1:57:38.320 heart in your life. 1:57:38.520 --> 1:57:42.080 Eve, please come back. This has been way Yeah. 1:57:42.720 --> 1:57:45.839 Yeah, Conte Corner is allmine. 1:57:45.880 --> 1:57:47.280 I really appreciate you all so much. 1:57:49.480 --> 1:57:52.520 Big thanks to Evel Ewing for appearing on the program, 1:57:53.560 --> 1:57:56.000 and of course the big thanks to Rosie Night for 1:57:56.120 --> 1:57:57.960 closing the Rosie plugs. 1:57:58.000 --> 1:58:00.360 Plugs, plugs, plugs, plug plugs. What do you you have 1:58:00.840 --> 1:58:01.240 to plug? 1:58:01.960 --> 1:58:06.120 You can find me Rosie marks on Instagram and letterbox 1:58:06.720 --> 1:58:09.320 where I'm starting to budge into Christmas movies, so come 1:58:09.400 --> 1:58:12.880 and judge me. Yeah, I watched so many bad Christmas movies, 1:58:12.960 --> 1:58:16.120 like I'm talking about Harvark, Lifetime, everything. They're all there 1:58:16.160 --> 1:58:19.400 and I make them in lists if you like hearing 1:58:19.440 --> 1:58:21.680 about Rievey Williams, I have a piece up at Polygon 1:58:21.920 --> 1:58:25.200 that's the kind of explainer, in depth explainer about that 1:58:25.760 --> 1:58:27.880 and just other cool things coming up. You can check 1:58:27.920 --> 1:58:30.640 me writing about TV and stuff at IGN and Nerdict, 1:58:31.240 --> 1:58:33.280 and you can also read my comics. I have a 1:58:33.320 --> 1:58:36.480 website Rosiolivia Night dot com because I haven't bothered to 1:58:36.840 --> 1:58:40.080 change my URL yet it's my proper name. But there 1:58:40.120 --> 1:58:42.440 you can read some free comics. You can read all 1:58:42.520 --> 1:58:46.400 of my thousands of articles that's not hyperbolic. And yeah, 1:58:46.520 --> 1:58:47.800 and then obviously here. 1:58:50.560 --> 1:58:53.320 Catch the next episode on November eighteenth, and of course 1:58:53.360 --> 1:58:56.760 subscribe to the show on YouTube, follow at XRV pod 1:58:57.280 --> 1:58:59.680 on Twitter. Maybe not for much longer on Twitter, we'll 1:58:59.680 --> 1:59:02.840 see that it's about somewhere else. But check out the 1:59:02.920 --> 1:59:06.400 discord to meet and hang out with the other X 1:59:06.480 --> 1:59:08.720 ray Vision fans, and of course Rosie and I were 1:59:08.760 --> 1:59:10.640 active on there, and we'd love to interact with you. 1:59:11.760 --> 1:59:14.720 Five star ratings. We love them, we gotta have them, 1:59:14.840 --> 1:59:19.400 we need them. Here's one from the dot Potato, the 1:59:19.520 --> 1:59:22.320 nerd podcast we need. If there are nerd happenings, I 1:59:22.400 --> 1:59:23.960 know I can count on Jason to Rosie to not 1:59:24.080 --> 1:59:26.800 only cover it, but direct me to more resources. I've 1:59:26.800 --> 1:59:28.920 picked up comics, books and shows that I wouldn't have 1:59:29.000 --> 1:59:30.800 sought out otherwise, and I know it all to Extray Vision. 1:59:30.840 --> 1:59:32.680 Plus they've got the best podcast theme song out there, 1:59:32.720 --> 1:59:33.200 hands down. 1:59:33.120 --> 1:59:34.360 No contest. Thank you. 1:59:34.480 --> 1:59:37.400 The Peto x ray Vision is a Crooked Media production. 1:59:37.440 --> 1:59:39.240 The show is produced by Chris Lord and Solve Rubin. 1:59:39.240 --> 1:59:42.040 The show is executive produced by myself and Sandy Arhard 1:59:42.040 --> 1:59:43.040 are editing in sound design. 1:59:43.040 --> 1:59:45.080 Who's by Vacillius Photopoulos. 1:59:44.840 --> 1:59:48.360 Dylon Villanueva and Matt de Group provide video production support. 1:59:48.480 --> 1:59:51.520 Alex Reller for Handle Social Media. Thank you, Brian Vasquez 1:59:51.560 --> 1:59:52.320 for theme music. 1:59:52.760 --> 1:59:54.080 That's It for Us by