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Speaker 1: Warning this podcast can date spoilers for Black Panther Wakanda Forever. Hello,

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Speaker 1: my name is Jason Concepcion, and welcome to x ray Vision,

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Speaker 1: The Crooked Podcast where we dive deep, all the way

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Speaker 1: to the bottom of the ocean into your favorite shows, movies, comics,

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Speaker 1: and pop culture. In this episode in the Airlock, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna be diving deep into the Black Panther Wakanda Forever.

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Speaker 1: Rosie and I are gonna talk about the characters, talk

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Speaker 1: about the themes, talk about our thoughts about it, talk

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Speaker 1: about some of the history. It's gonna be fun. A

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Speaker 1: return of the omnibus segment. We're gonna talk about Wakanda,

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Speaker 1: the Black Panther, and the Afrofuturism aesthetic movement in the

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Speaker 1: Hive Mind. We will be joined by author, sociologist, professor, poet,

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Speaker 1: and writer of the acclaimed Iron Heart comic for Marvel,

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Speaker 1: Eve l Ewing. It was just so excited for this.

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Speaker 1: If you want to jump around, of course, check the

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Speaker 1: show notes for the timestamps and join me. Today is

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Speaker 1: the writer Comics Encyclopedia.

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Speaker 2: She is the heart shaped the Great Rosie Day.

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Speaker 3: I'm saying, yeah, this is so exciting, I mean, most

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Speaker 3: anticipated movie of the year probably, and here we are

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Speaker 3: about to break it all down and talk about some

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Speaker 3: of the amazing creators who made it possible and talk

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Speaker 3: about this wild movie and of course like thirst over

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Speaker 3: nay more.

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Speaker 1: So, Okay, let's get into it first. Up recapping Black

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Speaker 1: Panther Wakanda Forever, we're stepping out of the air lock

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Speaker 1: and into talkan to discuss the latest installment of the MCU,

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Speaker 1: the last film in Phase four.

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Speaker 2: Black Panther Wikonda Forever.

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Speaker 1: Here we go, the last film in Marvel's Phase four,

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Speaker 1: which is a wild thing to say. It opens in Wakanda,

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Speaker 1: where in Suri's lab, the Princess is frantically trying to

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Speaker 1: synthesize a replacement for the heart shaped herb, which was

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Speaker 1: destroyed by Kilmonger, of course after he sees power in

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Speaker 1: the first film. And sure he needs this because t'achala

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Speaker 1: is terminally ill. The herb is his only chance to survive.

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Speaker 1: She pushes through a formula to production. It's maybe only

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Speaker 1: thirty percent effective, Grio her Ai tells her. But before

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Speaker 1: she can rush it to the King's bedside, Queen Romanda

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Speaker 1: appears and the king has passed. You know, this was

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Speaker 1: the big question, right is how are they going to

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Speaker 1: handle it? And I thought they handle it with appropriate

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Speaker 1: grace and real sadness. I mean there's a real.

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Speaker 3: Sadness and there is a space within this for the

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Speaker 3: actors and the friends of Chadwick to mourn Chadwick while

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Speaker 3: Morning T'Challa. After this, we get this huge funeral scene.

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Speaker 3: It's a celebration, it's a morning and then boom a

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Speaker 3: year later and we see the fallout.

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Speaker 1: One year later, French commandos are rating a Wakandan science facility.

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Speaker 1: They force the workers there to open up a vault,

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Speaker 1: but it is a trap out stride a Koye ao

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Speaker 1: Aneka and other Dora Malaje who are who are disguised

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Speaker 1: as the as the scientists there, and they easily best

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Speaker 1: these commandos. Later, at a closed session of the United

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Speaker 1: Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, American and French officials are just

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Speaker 1: tearing into Queen Ramonda. They are saying that Wakanda has

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Speaker 1: not lived up to its obligations see International Community. I

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Speaker 1: guess Wakanda had promised to share.

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Speaker 3: At some point the end of Black Panther, and this

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Speaker 3: is one of the spanners that was thrown into the

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Speaker 3: works with everything like the tragedies that happened during the

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Speaker 3: two movies. The end of Black Panther opens with this

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Speaker 3: idea of Wakanda being a nation that will be open,

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Speaker 3: will be part of the global community, will share technology.

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Speaker 3: Was going to open a STEM school in Oakland. You

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Speaker 3: know that was influence.

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Speaker 4: We're going to give you.

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Speaker 3: We're going to give you vibranium, and also like greedy,

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Speaker 3: this is they're greedy and it's going to cause a

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Speaker 3: big problem for everyone.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Of course, vibranium, as we're going to see over the

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Speaker 1: course of this movie, and as we saw in Black Panther,

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Speaker 1: is a It's a wonder substance. It's not only a metal, right.

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Speaker 1: It has a staggering number of applications. It's easily workable.

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Speaker 1: It can be an indestructible substance, but a can also absorb, store,

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Speaker 1: and amplify energy.

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Speaker 2: It can give.

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Speaker 1: People superpowers, on and on and on and on, and

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Speaker 1: the rest of the world is like, hey share this stuff,

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Speaker 1: and Wakanda rightly has said no.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, especially because they keep talking about how it can

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Speaker 3: be used to make weapons. They're acting like.

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Speaker 2: That's what they would love to get them.

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Speaker 3: But really that's what they want it for. They want

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Speaker 3: to make weapons of mass destruction with Wakanda with vibranium.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the Queen says, we're not going to do

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Speaker 1: that because the rest of the world can't be trusted

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Speaker 1: with vibranium. Whether Wakanda has ever actually again formally agreed

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Speaker 1: to share this substance unclear, but would love to learn

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Speaker 1: more about, like why the world thinks this. Whatever the case,

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Speaker 1: we all understand she made the right decision, and certainly

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Speaker 1: the world does. When she then parades the captured commandos

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Speaker 1: into the hall, the chastened French ambassador, it's unclear whether

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Speaker 1: the French ambassador would have had any idea that this

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Speaker 1: was happening.

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Speaker 3: You know it is, but they say that it was

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Speaker 3: someone who was from a member state. And then the

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Speaker 3: French ambassador, who's been kind of really pushing for.

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Speaker 1: This, is like, oh, I guess we've done bad stuff,

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Speaker 1: and the Queen promises a harsh response if the world

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Speaker 1: ever again violates Wakandan sovereignty. Later, somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean,

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Speaker 1: there is a boat of CIA scientists protected by, as

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Speaker 1: Tony might say, jasop guys and they have discovered a

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Speaker 1: deposit of vibranium deep under the ocean. It is at

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Speaker 1: this point the only known deposit of the material outside

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Speaker 1: of Waconda. Scientists and diving suits are going in for

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Speaker 1: a closer look. But soon mysterious warriors are peering out

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Speaker 1: of the waves, and one of these with wings on

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Speaker 1: his feet, snatches a helicopter out of the air hurls

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Speaker 1: it into the sea, and we can we're led to

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Speaker 1: believe that all the scientists, everybody on this boat has

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Speaker 1: been neutralized to be gay guilt.

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Speaker 3: And we hear a sirens song, and we see these

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Speaker 3: men just throwing themselves off the ocean, off the boat, and.

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Speaker 2: It's not just a brute attack there.

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Speaker 1: These these people are able to somehow take over people's

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Speaker 1: minds and.

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Speaker 3: Draw them on hypnotization that like the siren song of interesting,

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Speaker 3: which like, I'm really glad that they're leaning into that

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Speaker 3: because everyone's always said it's a mom man.

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Speaker 1: In Wakanda, the queen is worried about her daughter, Princess

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Speaker 1: sureI Surey is taking to Challa's death very very hard.

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Speaker 1: She blames herself essentially for not being able to save him.

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Speaker 1: Queen Ramonda takes Shury to the bush Uh and there

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Speaker 1: the Queen burns her ceremonial funeral gown, and she wants

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Speaker 1: Shuri to do the same, but sure he can't move on, She.

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Speaker 2: Can't let go.

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Speaker 1: She says that if anything's gonna burn, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be the world, which is alarming. At that moment, a

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Speaker 1: man with winged feet emerges from the river nearby. It's

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Speaker 1: our friend nay War. We get a good look at him.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 1: He's looking good, He's looking really, really great. He somehow

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Speaker 1: managed to evade Wakanda's cutting edge, cutting, cutting edge border

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Speaker 1: defenses of which we have seen of the courses, you know,

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Speaker 1: various movies.

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Speaker 2: By Now.

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Speaker 1: He tells them that his nation, Talakan, also has vibranium.

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Speaker 1: They too, kept themselves hidden from the world, have kept

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Speaker 1: themselves successfully hidden from the world, but Wakanda's Wakanda's emergence

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Speaker 1: and her decision to reveal the existence of vibranium has

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Speaker 1: the knock on effect of that is, it's awakened the

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Speaker 1: world's greed for vibranium.

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Speaker 3: And they want to find vibranium. They want to find

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Speaker 3: the source of it for themselves. They want to find

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Speaker 3: new sources, which is going to definitely play in to

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Speaker 3: the future of the MC you as well as just

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Speaker 3: the ramifications of name Or now existing and being rightfully pissed.

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Speaker 1: So led by brand new technology that can ditect that

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Speaker 1: can detect vibranium, the US military has come poking around

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Speaker 1: in the ocean near Telekan's hiding place, and Naymar says,

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Speaker 1: Wakanda has to take responsibility for the mess that it

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Speaker 1: helped create. Wakanda should ally itself with Talakan and demonstrate

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Speaker 1: that friendship, how by killing that scientist or capturing that

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Speaker 1: scientist and bringing them to Telekan so that talcan can

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Speaker 1: then kill the scientist. And it's either that or name

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Speaker 1: More promises that we're going to attack Wakanda, bring it

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Speaker 1: to its knees.

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Speaker 2: Okay bye, And then Naymar.

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Speaker 1: Disappears under the water and he leaves the undersea vibranium

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Speaker 1: detector curiously for Wakanda to kind of investigate into, I.

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Speaker 3: Just have to say, he's he's old man, he's rightfully angry.

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Speaker 3: In my opinion, he might be. He's coming to them

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Speaker 3: with a little bit of aggression. But this is the

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Speaker 3: first of many times that nay More makes the correct

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Speaker 3: offer to Wakanda that they should ally themselves.

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Speaker 5: They should ally themselves and nobody wants to listen to

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Speaker 5: nay Moore, and so much of the horror of this

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Speaker 5: movie could be absolutely avoided if Wakanda was just real

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Speaker 5: about the outside.

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Speaker 3: World and the strength of allying with Talakhan.

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Speaker 2: We will we will unpack that later, I have.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the wonderful subjects of this movie

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Speaker 1: is that Wakandan leadership. Listen, we love the Queen, I

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Speaker 1: love Shuri T'Challa. May he rest in peace. I do

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Speaker 1: think that specifically post the Wakandan revealed to the world,

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Speaker 1: I think, uh, decision making has been spotty at best.

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Speaker 2: But that's a monarchy, baby. We're gonna get that problem,

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Speaker 2: the monarchy, you know.

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Speaker 1: Should we have just been like, okay, kill Monger is

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Speaker 1: the guy now, and I guess we got to do

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Speaker 1: everything he said. Like on his side, I think there

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Speaker 1: need there needed to be mechanisms by which to say, no,

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Speaker 1: we're not just going to destroy all the heart shape

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Speaker 1: her now, Like wait, hold on a second, it seems bad.

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Speaker 4: A.

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Speaker 1: Koya gets the identity of the scientist from her contact

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Speaker 1: in the CAA. The Wakana's man in the CIA, Everett Ross,

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Speaker 1: CIA agent and colonizer, has been feeding a Koya intelligence

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Speaker 1: for years.

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Speaker 2: Apparently. The scientist's name is Reee Williams.

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Speaker 1: A nineteen year old student at MI T Surey, against

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Speaker 1: the queen's wishes, goes with a Koya on the ostensibly

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Speaker 1: snatch and grab a kidnap mission, right but but sure

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Speaker 1: he is saying, Hey, I'm a brilliant scientist. Also, maybe

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Speaker 1: I can talk to this person and convince them to

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Speaker 1: help us.

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Speaker 2: Actually, they confront re Rea the.

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Speaker 1: Sudden appearance of a princess of Wakanda uh and a

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Speaker 1: general of the Wakandan military. Let's re Reno that actually

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Speaker 1: this is very serious, Like is very concerned that, Oh shit,

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Speaker 1: did I piss off Wakanda?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think you'd like? I do want

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Speaker 2: to say something that wanted to radio.

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Speaker 3: One of my favorite things is that she's like, did

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Speaker 3: you make this for the CIA? Sure, he asks her, like,

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Speaker 3: why did you do that? And she's like, no, I

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Speaker 3: made it for homework. I made it for my metal

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Speaker 3: g class. Like that lets you know that really is

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Speaker 3: one of the most intelligent people in the Marvel universe.

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Speaker 3: In the MCU. She did this. She created this thing

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Speaker 3: as a as a homework.

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Speaker 2: Homework science took her a couple of months. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: even that deep.

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Speaker 1: And one of the concerns raised by the ambassadors to

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Speaker 1: the UN is that this vibranium cannot be detected by

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Speaker 1: any existing technology. Metal detectors don't pick it up.

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Speaker 2: You can use it.

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Speaker 1: You can make a bomb out of vibranium then just

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Speaker 1: walk it into the airport. Right but here, Rary Williams

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Speaker 1: has figured out a way to detect vibraniums.

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Speaker 2: This is a big deal.

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Speaker 1: She takes Shurei and a Koya to her lab nearby,

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Speaker 1: but before she can show them her you know, her

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Speaker 1: research into the vibranium detector, the FBI surrounds the building.

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Speaker 1: There's a big chase with shuriy and Akoye you know,

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Speaker 1: on the streets and rear in her home brewce Stark

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Speaker 1: Tech inspired Ironheart Mark one battlesuit, which gets its debut

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Speaker 1: here but on a bridge over the Charles River, the

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Speaker 1: Talkanil ambush R trio of heroes. A Koya's fighting skills

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Speaker 1: are world class, of course, but that Talacanil are super

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Speaker 1: humanly strong, very very hard to kill, and Suri ends

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Speaker 1: up convincing them to take her captive along with re Rey,

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Speaker 1: to their king so that she can argue for Rerey's life.

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Speaker 1: Rosie tell us more about Reary, Williams.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, this is such an exciting addition because

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Speaker 3: this is probably one of, if not the quickest transitions

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Speaker 3: we've seen from a character being introduced. Reary was introduced

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Speaker 3: in twenty Sixteens Invincible I Am an number seven from

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Speaker 3: volume three, created by Brian Michael Bennis and Mike Diodardo,

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Speaker 3: So that's only six years between then and now her

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Speaker 3: making her MCU debut. And then she's kind of like

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Speaker 3: what we see in the movie, though in the comic

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Speaker 3: she was a little bit younger. She was fifteen. She's

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Speaker 3: an MIT student super genius who in the comics built

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Speaker 3: her own version of Tony Stark's Mark forty one suit

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Speaker 3: as a pet project, and she did that while he

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Speaker 3: was missing, presumed dead, and he was actually undercover in Madriport,

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Speaker 3: And that was in the lead up to Road to

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Speaker 3: Civil War two, and she would eventually appear in that event.

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Speaker 3: She was in some other comics that were tied to it,

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Speaker 3: like Guardians to the Galaxy, but wouldn't debut as iron

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Speaker 3: Heart until the first issue of the fourth volume of

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Speaker 3: Invincible iron Man, which was that famous cover where she's

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Speaker 3: in the suit and it says you know iron Heart

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Speaker 3: on the cover. That story stuck to this idea. She's

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Speaker 3: from Chicago. It's got a little bit of early Mars

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Speaker 3: moralesness to it. AKA. Her story was quite it leaned

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Speaker 3: into some tropes. She'd been in trouble at school. The

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Speaker 3: police were going to arrest her because, I will say,

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Speaker 3: salvage the parts to make the iron Heart suit. So really,

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Speaker 3: the version of Really that we are seeing now is

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Speaker 3: the Eve Viewing expanded holistic that was introduced in the

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Speaker 3: twenty eighteen solo iron Heart series with originally drawn by

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Speaker 3: Kevin Lebranda and then Luciano Veccio and Jeffolded some pencils

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Speaker 3: and layouts, and that was where Ironheart became a Marvel legend.

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Speaker 3: That was the story that made people fall in love

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Speaker 3: with her. That was the story that showed that she

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Speaker 3: was a super genius who was also a normal teenager

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Speaker 3: who had this unbelievable relationship with Tony Stark. That was

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Speaker 3: this mentorship, this beautiful space where she could be the smartest,

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Speaker 3: most impressive version of herself with someone who was her peer.

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Speaker 3: We know in the MCU Tony is dead rip sorry

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Speaker 3: to that man, But in Eve's in Eve's Iron Heart

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Speaker 3: story in issue nine, Tony arranges it for really to

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Speaker 3: visit Shuri in Wakanda. And obviously what we're seeing in

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Speaker 3: the movie here is leaning more into that Rheree's relationship

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Speaker 3: is not one of a mentor with Tony in the MCU,

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Speaker 3: it is one of a burgeoning partnership and alliance with Wakanda,

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Speaker 3: with Shuri, with one of the only people in the

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Speaker 3: whole of the MCU who can go toe to toe

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Speaker 3: with her on an intelligence level. And it's very exciting

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Speaker 3: to just see her be thrown into this wild world.

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Speaker 3: And as you said about you know about to go

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Speaker 3: to Talakhan.

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Speaker 1: Well, in a vast Karen under the ocean, Shuri meets

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Speaker 1: kokoul Kan, who the Talakanil worship as their god and

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Speaker 1: whose enemies call Nemour.

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Speaker 2: When he.

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Speaker 1: Will pause there because I just want to say that

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Speaker 1: when when when Nemour explains the origin of his name,

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Speaker 1: I was like, whoever came up with this is the

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Speaker 1: smartest person.

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Speaker 2: Ten out of ten ten out of town.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just one of the coolest origin of an name,

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Speaker 3: one of the most smart recontextualizations which this series the

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Speaker 3: Black Panther movies have been known for. But it is

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Speaker 3: it's like gosp out loud good.

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Speaker 2: It was amazing.

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Speaker 1: So he tells Suri of the history of himself and

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Speaker 1: his people. Over five hundred years ago, native people around

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Speaker 1: what is now called the Yucatan Peninsula were dying of

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Speaker 1: smallpox brought to the land by Spanish Conkystradores. One of

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Speaker 1: the shamans of the indigenous people has a vision that

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Speaker 1: leads them to find a plant in a cavern underwater.

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Speaker 3: Looks very much like the harsh sure.

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Speaker 1: Right, It's slightly different in color, maybe a little blue

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Speaker 1: in color, but looks to be the same, and the

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Speaker 1: people create a kind of potion out of this plant.

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Speaker 1: They ingest it. It protects them against the smallpox, but

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Speaker 1: it also turns their skin blue and takes away from

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Speaker 1: them the ability to breathe air, but gives them the

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Speaker 1: ability to breathe underwater.

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Speaker 2: Her name or his mother, who is pregnant at the time.

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Speaker 1: Had to be persuaded to take the plant, but she

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Speaker 1: does and her child is born with amazing abilities that

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Speaker 1: are beyond what the tealcanill have, and he becomes the leader,

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Speaker 1: the king, the god in fact to his people. Years later,

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Speaker 1: following his mother's dying wish, Cookoulcan returns to his mother's

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Speaker 1: human village to lay her remains to rest, and there

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Speaker 1: he finds that the Spanish have enslaved the local indigenous people.

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Speaker 2: In retribution, he slays.

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Speaker 6: Them and by the way, he looks like he's like

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Speaker 6: but he's probably like fifty or something, but he makes

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Speaker 6: like a baby yees.

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Speaker 1: So he slays the conquistadors and as one dying priest

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Speaker 1: looks upon him, you know, with fear, the priest says

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Speaker 1: that this this boy describes the boy as El Nino Cinemore,

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Speaker 1: the boy with out love, and from this no more

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Speaker 1: could cool kind of takes his name of war and

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Speaker 1: I was like, holy shit, that's it so clever.

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Speaker 3: And my favorite thing about it is like, at first

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Speaker 3: it sounds a little bit like Emo, and it's kind

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Speaker 3: of like he has no love because his heart's broken

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Speaker 3: and his mother is not there.

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Speaker 2: But really for the service, he has no love for

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Speaker 2: the service.

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Speaker 7: Well, that's like the hardest shit in the MC I

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Speaker 7: could not believe it good. I'm just obsessed so good,

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Speaker 7: And to be able to recontextualize, like we haven't even

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Speaker 7: really gotten in nay More is you know, one of

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Speaker 7: Marvel's oldest characters debuted in like nineteen thirty nine and

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Speaker 7: has throughout history been entangled in some of the more

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Speaker 7: problematic and racist depictions of characters of color, and like

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Speaker 7: Marvel's own fear of especially like Asian communities and this

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Speaker 7: idea of an Asian superpower, and ironically some of that

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Speaker 7: actually makes the old name or stuff. Some of the

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Speaker 7: panels are quite radical, and you see this kind of

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Speaker 7: like interesting subversion of what they.

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Speaker 2: Thought they were against the white race. Yeah, like he's on.

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Speaker 3: His mission to kill the white man or whatever.

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Speaker 5: Like, but.

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Speaker 3: I love that they took this name that was given

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Speaker 3: to him, you know, the submarrin or name or always

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Speaker 3: been quite a character of people been like, oh, he's

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Speaker 3: wearing some pants, he's got wings on his he's quite silly,

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Speaker 3: he's quite campy. And to create an origin for that

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Speaker 3: name that is so directly linked to this brilliant recontextualization

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Speaker 3: and this very what feels very authentic to the conversations

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Speaker 3: that are being had and the realities of the horror

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Speaker 3: of colonialism. It's just so cool like that, that is

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Speaker 3: just a level of craft and detail in writing that

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Speaker 3: just cannot go uncelebrated. So I'm glad that I'm glad

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Speaker 3: we brought it up.

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Speaker 2: It's so good, beautiful.

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Speaker 1: The Queen travels to Haiti, where Nikia is running a school.

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Speaker 1: She has lived there apparently since the blip. Devastated by

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Speaker 1: to child's death, she just couldn't bring herself to return

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Speaker 1: to Wakanda, not even for his funeral. The Queen convinces

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Speaker 1: Nikia to uh to you know, bring back her super

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Speaker 1: spy skills and track down Princess Shuri, who is who

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Speaker 1: is missing and in the hands of the Talkanil. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: Everett Ross's new boss, the Contessa Valentina Allegradfontaine.

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Speaker 2: Is all over his ass.

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Speaker 1: The CIA director wants to refound She wants to know

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Speaker 1: how the Wakandans because who else would do this tracked

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Speaker 1: her down, and the Kintessa also wants to start thinking

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Speaker 1: about how we can respond, how we can start destabilizing Wakanda.

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Speaker 2: Also, she's Ross's ex wife. Very interesting, very very interesting.

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Speaker 3: Her romantic entanglement was with Nick Fury and were very

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Speaker 3: interested to see if that was going to come up.

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Speaker 3: But it seems that they've decided to do like these

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Speaker 3: little Cia romance. Terrible hate for both of them, but

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Speaker 3: you know what, Ross comes out of this looking better

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Speaker 3: out of the pair.

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Speaker 1: I will say also in the annals of We Were Right,

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Speaker 1: it's not quite we were Right, but over the course

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Speaker 1: of this movie, our theory that the Contessa's plan is

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Speaker 1: to create the superhero team that follows orders, you know,

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Speaker 1: is burnished by her actions in this movie.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we you know, we definitely got some we

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Speaker 3: were Right stuff that we got into, but that's true.

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Speaker 3: Also very interesting to see that something I was wary

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Speaker 3: about that we've talked about is like the Thunderbots has

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Speaker 3: to be a villain team. It doesn't really make sense otherwise.

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Speaker 3: But the way that they built in I understand the

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Speaker 3: expanding this Black Panther universe have to fit into the

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Speaker 3: rest of the MCU, I think is some of the

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Speaker 3: stuff people have been struggling the most with with like

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Speaker 3: the folks on Ross and Contessa and I totally agree,

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Speaker 3: But well, I did really like credit to Ryan and

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Speaker 3: his co script. She's a villain like no question, absolute villain.

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Speaker 3: I feel like in the TV shows they were doing

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Speaker 3: more of a is she just like a different way

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Speaker 3: of running things, But no, she's the director of the

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Speaker 3: CIA and she sucks.

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Speaker 1: She's putting together the Avengers team quote unquote Avengers team,

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Speaker 1: that is soldiers that are people that will just like

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Speaker 1: decapitate people in the street. Ross finds Suri's beads communication

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Speaker 1: beads under some wreckage at the attack site in Boston,

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Speaker 1: and he uses them to warn the Queen that the

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Speaker 1: US government might be preparing to do something to move

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Speaker 1: against Wakanda in some sort of way in Talikan. Under

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Speaker 1: the seat the More takes Shuri to Talikan, and the

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Speaker 1: culture and the beauty of the place and the obvious

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Speaker 1: strength and the unity of its people just ows her away.

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Speaker 2: She asks the King if she.

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Speaker 1: Can take read back to Wakanda, and she promises that

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Speaker 1: there she's going to advocate strongly on Telecon's behalf anymore

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Speaker 1: is like I've got a counter deal. Wakanda allies itself

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Speaker 1: with Telecan and side by side we wage war against

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Speaker 1: the nations of the service. And he makes some good points,

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Speaker 1: he said, and defang them so they can never again

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Speaker 1: threaten either of us an lave and yeah, take our

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Speaker 1: take our resources, et colonize.

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Speaker 2: Us not necessary.

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Speaker 3: She I feel like this is a character be that

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Speaker 3: I understand for this movie's sake, But I do feel like,

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Speaker 3: sure he would be the one person who would be

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Speaker 3: most open to this. But she is quite horrified because

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Speaker 3: she's like, well, lots of people didn't do anything bad

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Speaker 3: up there, and I don't know if we would want

434
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 3: to do that.

435
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 2: I think in Suri's you know listen.

436
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 1: Allying, I think is a good idea waging war against

437
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: the entire surface world, which is very in line with

438
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: Naymor's character history and a thing that he has done

439
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: time and time and time and time again in the

440
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: comics for various reasons, some of them actually pretty just reasons,

441
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 1: like I get it would.

442
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 2: There are other.

443
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,719
Speaker 1: Ways to do it, like I don't need we we like,

444
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: you know, to sure He's credit the idea of just

445
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: jumping straight out to a state of active warfare against

446
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: the entire world probably not a great idea, but also

447
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 1: you can see how this is going to lead the

448
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: nations of the world to hate superpowered people, in particular

449
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 1: superpowered people like no More.

450
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 3: Who by the way are mutants. I was going to say,

451
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 3: we should say this, we should say this. We've had

452
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 3: the ab mutation. We've been waiting for someone to be

453
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 3: cold a mutant name. He does it, says I was

454
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 3: a mutant. He says I am a mutant. He says

455
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 3: the word he means in the context of his community.

456
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 2: Yes, And the truth.

457
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 3: Is that, you know, Jason, you really smartly brought this

458
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 3: up in pre pro But like nay More, is not

459
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 3: the only mutant. He might see himself that way because

460
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 3: he is a mutant in comparison to his people, who

461
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 3: he can be above land, he can be underwater. They

462
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 3: can only exist under the water. But his whole community

463
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 3: are mutants, and apparently from a vibranium rich soil and

464
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 3: the plant which allowed them to become mutants. This is

465
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 3: very interesting, and I think there is a world where

466
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 3: we see that come into play down the line to

467
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 3: introduce more mutated characters. We know that we're not going

468
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 3: to get an inhumans in this world. Miss Marvel kind

469
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 3: of proved that we're not there yet. This is going

470
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 3: to be a mutant situation. So I wouldn't be surprised

471
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 3: to see a version of the plant or a vibranium

472
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 3: rich soil or that could be turned into some kind

473
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 3: of myst almost like a tarage of myst I'm weaponized

474
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 3: to create.

475
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 4: Moment.

476
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,719
Speaker 3: That's a great point mutants, because I think what we're seeing.

477
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: You know, they didn't kind of spell this out, but

478
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 1: my guess for why no More has his abilities is

479
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: he had the ex gene just passed to him by

480
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: his parents, right, And something about the active ingredient in

481
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: this plant, this vibranium based plant, awakened.

482
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 2: That and supercharged his powers.

483
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 1: All of which is to say, mutants are here, and

484
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: they are here now in vast numbers in the form

485
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 1: of the Talcanol.

486
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 3: We're talking about thousands and thousands, tens of thousands of

487
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 3: people maybe more living in Talakan as a symbol of.

488
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: Naymar's word, right, and you know the generosity of his offer.

489
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: You know, in his view, he gives Shuri a bracelet

490
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: which is woven from the very plant which gave the

491
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: Telecanel their powers belong.

492
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 3: To his mob us. So this is a very intimate moment.

493
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 3: And I will say they must have chemistry tested the

494
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:14,719
Speaker 3: fuck out of Letitia and who plays nay More because

495
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 3: there is such an unbelievable spark between them. These children

496
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: of these hidden nations, respect respect, but there's like a bond,

497
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 3: but there's like a slight flirtation, but it's not necessarily romantic.

498
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 3: It's more of a It's like they spark each other's curiosity.

499
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 3: And the whole time I was watching it, I was

500
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 3: just thinking, like, when Sue Storm comes into the MCU,

501
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 3: is gonna be it's happening. Do it in the first movie.

502
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 3: It needs to be there because.

503
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 4: That is good.

504
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 3: The way that they play with that relationship. His performance

505
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 3: is the standout for me in this film.

506
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 6: Is he established at charisma, this this danger, this relatability

507
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 6: and real older against real arrogance, but based on like legit. Yeah,

508
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 6: just reason for just reason, but also because he is

509
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 6: probably the most powerful person on earth apart from as

510
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 6: he will learn like the Black Panther, you know. So yeah,

511
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 6: I was just blown away by him and that the

512
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 6: Talakan stuff was really my my favorite part of this movie.

513
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 6: And I just kept thinking about him and Letitia were

514
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 6: so good together in those small moments that they had.

515
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 6: I was like, I need to see him with Sue Storm.

516
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 3: I need to see him break up the marriage because

517
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 3: sure is stronger person than me. I would have been like, yes,

518
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 3: let's do the war. I'm cool with it, man.

519
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: And we should add unless unless we're unless we find

520
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: out that apocalypse is out here, which might be a case.

521
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: Right, this is the first first mutan. This is the

522
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: first muta.

523
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 3: And they're not just that they made him five hundred

524
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 3: years old, so you're talking about a first mutant. It's

525
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 3: not one hundred years old, not one hundred and twenty

526
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 3: years old. This is a mutant who has lived in

527
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 3: what is essentially a secluded secretsist We were right. Secret

528
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 3: societies are a huge deal going into secret wars, and

529
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 3: not only that, but he potentially has a more locks

530
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 3: sque community of secret mutants. So look always saying is

531
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 3: this is a secret society of mutans that nobody knew

532
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: about even in the Age of the Avengers. So there's

533
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 3: probably other secret societies of mutants that are hidden in

534
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 3: this world.

535
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: Well, you know, five hundred years this also in the comics,

536
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:33,239
Speaker 1: No Moore has this whole history before his appearance, you know,

537
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: fighting the Fantastic Four, you know, in the Silver Age

538
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: of comics, as a fighter in World War Two. All

539
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: of which is to say, is five hundred years gives

540
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: you a lot of back centuries that they could fill

541
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: in in various ways. Is this the first time that

542
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: no More has has interacted with the surface. I'm going

543
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: to guess not. I'm going to guess there's other things

544
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: that we're going to find out that he's been involved in. Later, Nikia,

545
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: having discovered the sight of Nomor's mother's village, finds out

546
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: where Shuri and Reri have been taken, and she gets there,

547
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: goes under the sea to the cavern where they're being held,

548
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: and she goes to break them out. She kills two

549
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: Telecanal guards in the process, and Shuri is like, oh

550
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: my god, we got to save this person's life, and

551
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: Nikkia is like, no, we have to leave right now.

552
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: And Surrei knows that to take the lives of too

553
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: Tealcanil like this means that war between the Talcanil and

554
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: Wakanda is going to happen.

555
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 3: And in Shuri's defense, I love this. This is a

556
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 3: true moment of leadership. She tries to use the Kimoo

557
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 3: beats to save the lives of the Talacanal gods and

558
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 3: in one of the few mistakes that Nakia makes because

559
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 3: she's generally like one of the smartest people in Wakanda,

560
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 3: she doesn't listen to Shuri, and that is like a

561
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 3: heartbreaking moment because it leads to this kind of huge

562
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 3: conflict that could have been avoided.

563
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: Now, Wakanda steals itself for the blow. But when the

564
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: More arrives, the most advanced nation of the surface world,

565
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: their defenses are completely worthless against only a handful of

566
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: Nomore's warriors. Tidal waves devastate the capital cility Talkano warriors

567
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: leap from the backs of Wales to lay waste to

568
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: the streets, but all of this is a distraction to

569
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: allow no More to strike at Queen Ramonda.

570
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 2: She gives her.

571
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: Life to save Rear and it's a heartbreaking moment. Shuri

572
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: finds her mother now passed like this has just happened

573
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: moments before, and the More tells Shuri more than you're dead,

574
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: I'll be back in a week, your queen. Now it's

575
00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: your decision about how to lead the nation. Next, I'll

576
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: be back with your decision about whether you're going to

577
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: a lie with my people. And if the answer is no,

578
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: just so you know, I'm gonna when I come back

579
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: in a week, it's going to be at the head

580
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: of my entire army, not just a handful of my warriors.

581
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: As Queen Sure, he just wants vengeance. We heard it,

582
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: you know earlier in the movie that she wanted the

583
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: world to burn because of her feelings of the surrounding

584
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: the death of Chachala, and now this has sharpened those

585
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: feelings to a really keen, killing and dangerous edge. Imbaku

586
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 1: tries to talk her out of it, you know, the

587
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: Wandan's He notes that the Talcan will consider name more

588
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,439
Speaker 1: their god. If you kill their god, the war will

589
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: never end. The war will be existential. It will be

590
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 1: my children, my children's children. It will go on and

591
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: it will go on and on and on until.

592
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: One of our nation's perishes. And Sure is like that's.

593
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 3: Fine, and also just want to shout out Winston Duke

594
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 3: so good and Barkoo's still a standout, there's a great standard.

595
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 3: One of the best moments, like the biggest laugh moments

596
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: in this really somber movie, is like he walks into

597
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 3: the council eating.

598
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 2: Cara and calls a.

599
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 3: Koye a bald headed demon, and it is like our

600
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 3: whole cinema just lost its ship, like I want to

601
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 3: see more in Baku. I love him. I love that

602
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 3: recontextualization of the character. Winston Duke, you are king. Thank you.

603
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 3: And without Winston Duke, I don't know if we would

604
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 3: have got like thick name more, you know, I feel like, yeah,

605
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 3: I feel like we would have got like this. Winston

606
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 3: changed the the idea of like what a Marvel character

607
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 3: can look like. And you know, people love him for it,

608
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 3: and and he's delightful and I'm just so happy that

609
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 3: that Nomore is more in that mold of like a

610
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 3: just like a chunky, strong guy. We need more of them.

611
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 2: I absolutely love it.

612
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: Using the bracelet that the More gave her, she successfully synthesizes,

613
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: you know, a kind of heart shapter based on the

614
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,919
Speaker 1: talcanal plant, which is a biochemical twin of the heart

615
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: shaped her. She takes that potion herself and goes to

616
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: visit the Ancestral Plane, but it's not the ancestral plane.

617
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 1: She finds herself in the flooded throne room, a version,

618
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 1: you know, the incestral plane version of that very interesting

619
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 1: in Capital City, and she wakes up.

620
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 3: Underwater after using the plant. I think that we cannot underestimate.

621
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 2: That's a great point, the.

622
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 3: Importance of this essentially being a combined version of the

623
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 3: heart shape up and whatever the plant of the talcanal is.

624
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 3: I'm I'm very interested to see where that leads.

625
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: So she finds herself in the throne room. She's behind

626
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: the throne, someone sitting in it. She walks to the

627
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: front of it and we're thinking it's going to be

628
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: the Queen, or it's going to be T'Challa.

629
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 2: It's Killmonger.

630
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 3: Oh my cinema just absolutely lost its mind last night,

631
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 3: like screaming. That was like, that's the big you know,

632
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 3: the Spider Man. There was so many of those moments.

633
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 3: This is that moment where people just lost their mind.

634
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 2: Michael B.

635
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 3: Jordan delivering as always. And I love the reasoning of

636
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 3: him being there.

637
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Killmonger knows that surely wanted to see him.

638
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 3: That's why he's there.

639
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: She chose she wanted, and he knows it's because he

640
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: is the one person who will agree with what she

641
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 1: wants to do next, which is wipe out the telecanil.

642
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: No more must die. And when she wakes up, Nokia's like,

643
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: where'd you go? Who'd you see would you talk you know,

644
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: what was the ancestral plane, Like who'd you talk to?

645
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 2: And she's like, I'm not talking about it.

646
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 3: She's like I failed, and then she just like smashes

647
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 3: up the lab and obviously has super strength, so it's like,

648
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 3: think it worked, babe, but it worked.

649
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: Valentina breaks into Everett Ross's house to arrest him. She

650
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: had the beads bugged from the very beginning. She heard

651
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 1: everything Ross has told the Wakandans, and Ross is like, yeah,

652
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: well the Wahannahs are awesome and they saved my life

653
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,479
Speaker 1: so and they're right, so I guess I'm going to jail.

654
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: Ross says it would be terrible to imagine what the

655
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 1: United States, what other countries would do, but specifically the

656
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: United States would do if it controlled vibranium all by itself.

657
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: And the Contessa is like, well, you're going to prison

658
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: for us of your life. And by the way, I

659
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 1: dream of a day when we control vibranium.

660
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 3: That's when you do whatever we will want. She's obsessed

661
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 3: with power, she's obsessed with owning this resource, with colonizing Wakanda,

662
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 3: and with using it for her own nefarious.

663
00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 1: Means, and by the way a very a a very

664
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 1: juicy and vibrant plot from various Marvel comics throughout the years,

665
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: like the world is greedy for the resources.

666
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 3: That will go and I think as well, this is

667
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 3: I'm not a huge fan of Everett Ross and the MCU,

668
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 3: but I do think this scene is the closest we've

669
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 3: gotten to the Christopher Priest stuff that we talk about

670
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 3: in the omnibus y, where it's about Ross understanding who

671
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 3: the Wakandans are, his awakening to them, and the sacrifice

672
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 3: that he will make at because he realizes what the

673
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 3: right thing to do is. Most of I feel like

674
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 3: that has been mostly a misunderstanding of his character in

675
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 3: the MCU, but this is the closest I feel like

676
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 3: that we get.

677
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: In this moment, Surrey, now clad as the Black Panther,

678
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: leads her people to war, and her plan is to

679
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: take Rerea's detector out to see use it as bait

680
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: to lure the Talcanill to attack, and then they'll trap

681
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: me more inside like a flying microwave and they will

682
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: dry his ass out. Here's where I just want to

683
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: put a pin in this and discuss it so we

684
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: you know, again, I think Wakanda needs better leadership at

685
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 1: I think I think some of the I think some

686
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 1: of the decision making process is not good. And I

687
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: would like to highlight that Rear's plan is to fight

688
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 1: the fish people on water.

689
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,399
Speaker 3: They could have just they could have literally just fought

690
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 3: him on a different bit of land that wasn't Wakanda, Like, Yeah,

691
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 3: you didn't need to fight him on water where all

692
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 3: his people are coming. They got crazy underwater technology. They

693
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 3: have these un Something that is really cool that this

694
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 3: movie introduces and I think is very unique, is these

695
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 3: water bombs that kind of makes there. It's really cool.

696
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 3: I will say, if you enjoy the more stuff here,

697
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 3: you enjoy the taler Canal, please go and watch James

698
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 3: Wan's aqual Man, because I do feel like that movie.

699
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 3: This movie would not exist without that, and a lot

700
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 3: of the stuff they do in that movie is definitely influential.

701
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 3: But I really felt like the idea of this talacanil

702
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 3: technology and the bombs and everything is very unique and

703
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 3: very visually beautiful. But why did she want to fight

704
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:09,720
Speaker 3: him at the seat?

705
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: I guess I would say, I get that you had

706
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: to lure him, but you know what, I am on

707
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: the seat I think.

708
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 3: The idea of and this is something I would have

709
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 3: liked to see expanded a little bit, but it leans

710
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 3: into Sherry's comic book canon, especially the run when she

711
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 3: becomes Black Panther, you know, the reginal Hydelan run. She

712
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 3: is at this point not making sensible decisions.

713
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 2: She is she's absolutely she's very revenge.

714
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 3: She's consumed with it, and that leads her to make

715
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 3: this very silly decision that does kind of end up

716
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 3: working out, but it works.

717
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: Not a great idea, well, well, it kind of works,

718
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: I would add. So there's a big battle, right they

719
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 1: go out to see the talcanill are are alerted to

720
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 1: the presence of this vibrium detector in the water. News

721
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 1: gets to no More. He leads his forces against them.

722
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,240
Speaker 1: Re Re debuts the iron Heart mark too.

723
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 2: Which she was building in a montage in wac.

724
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 3: Powerful looks super coolium yeap.

725
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: Probably made a vibranium Okoya and Neka fight in two

726
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,240
Speaker 1: brand new Shuri designed pieces of Wakandan battle armor, also

727
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: clearly like vibranium tech very powerful. Sure, he gets nay

728
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: More in the microwave and the two get separated from

729
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: the main fight where Akoye Ao Neka Baku and the

730
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: rest of the Wakandans are at sea, trapped on their

731
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: ship fighting off the tylecanil. And I should add that,

732
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: you know though the plan again the plan, Surei's plant

733
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 1: kind of works. What like eight hundred Wakandans die in

734
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 1: this I was gonna say, they get they get wiped out,

735
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: there's gonna end.

736
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 3: There's like twelve condos. I was gonna say, there's like

737
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 3: twelve people who say Wakanda forever. And I'm like, babe,

738
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 3: you could have avoided all.

739
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 2: Of eight hundred people.

740
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 3: So I know you could have made more of that.

741
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 3: Amah for like the Midnight eight you know, like is

742
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 3: not the best plan.

743
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: So Shuri's microwave plane crashes in the desert because more,

744
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,760
Speaker 1: even in a weakened state, is extremely powerful.

745
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 3: And he uses he has a he has a spear

746
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 3: made of raw vibranium processed and he uses it to

747
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 3: crash the plane.

748
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 1: And he's potentially again like as strong as the Hulk

749
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: in the water, probably stronger, you know, I guess the

750
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 1: Hulk theoretically you get as strong as he wants, the

751
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: angrier he gets. But like Hulk levels class one hundred

752
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: level strength.

753
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 3: And they mentioned this very briefly, but I think it's

754
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 3: really interesting. Nay More is covered in vibranium. They always

755
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 3: say that everything that he wears, his his his jewels,

756
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 3: his his his kind of costume, whatever it is, that's

757
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 3: all covered in vibranium. So he has a similar energy

758
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:01,399
Speaker 3: signature power kind of vibe to a black panther who

759
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 3: is wearing a vibranium suit.

760
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: So they fight in the desert, and it is a brutal,

761
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: brutal fight, but even a dried out, partially weakened no

762
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: More is incredibly powerful, more powerful than the black panther.

763
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: He impales her on his vibranium spear and then goes

764
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: to stagger back to see sure he frees herself, and

765
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 1: then to square off again.

766
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 2: We get to fucking we.

767
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: Get saying imperious Rex in his in his language, and

768
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: it was like, yeah.

769
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 3: That's a famous comic cry. That's it's it's iconic because

770
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 3: everyone's like, what does that even mean? And what I

771
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 3: only really like got into it recently. But this shows

772
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 3: the absolute power of this movie, which is this word,

773
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 3: these combination of words that's so comic, booky and so poppy.

774
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,959
Speaker 3: When Tenoch says it in the Talcanil language and looks

775
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 3: at kind of looks towards the screen, it feels just

776
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 3: like fuck, like we're seeing something unbelievable here.

777
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 1: It was so so cool Suri. Then you think they're

778
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,720
Speaker 1: going to fight again. But then Shuri crosses his arms,

779
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 1: says Wakanda forever, and she triggers the blasters of her

780
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: crast ship like the Thrusters, and just.

781
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 2: Bakes anymore and very brutal.

782
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: Some baked fish here, maybe with a little bread crumb

783
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: on top, it would be delicious. Suri then stands over

784
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,919
Speaker 1: no more he is he could die potentially right now,

785
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 1: just as Kill Munger, just you know the moment that

786
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: Kill Munger described in her vision in the Ancestral Plane.

787
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 1: It's here now. Suri then reflects on everything that she

788
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 1: has lost, and she hears the Queen telling her that

789
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 1: now she needs to show no more who she is.

790
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 3: And this is a huge deal because Suri it doesn't

791
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 3: believe the Ancestral Plane exists. She barely believes that the

792
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 3: kill Manga thing was real. She just thinks it's something

793
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 3: she needed to see. And we see Ramonda in the

794
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 3: traditional ancestral plane talking to Shuri saying show him who

795
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 3: you are.

796
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: She stands over him and she makes him this offer.

797
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: She will as queen ally Wakanda with the telecan Ill.

798
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 1: The Wakandans will protect the seas for the Teleconill protect

799
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: the surface you know around where telecan is well. Keep

800
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: their secrets, keep their secrets. But no More must yield,

801
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 1: promise to stop pursuing rere and promise to not wage

802
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: war against the surface world. Nomour yields and the Talcaneal

803
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 1: return home.

804
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's this really, this is one of my most

805
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 3: powerful like chills moments. They fly down the Wakanda's is

806
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 3: about to be killed. There's on like fourteen of them left,

807
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 3: and no More and Shuri come down on this plane

808
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 3: together and they sort of you know, they say dead

809
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 3: and they say like Talacanill rise Wakanda forever and Talacanill

810
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 3: go home. This shows really, I have to say, on

811
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 3: your point, the monarchy of Wakanda has a problem. Yeah,

812
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 3: because the real truth is sure we could have avoided

813
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 3: that eight hundred deaths by just having a little combo

814
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 3: making this offer before something I feel like, but I

815
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 3: understand that Namo needed to see the strength of the

816
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 3: black understand that they were strength all but still rip

817
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 3: can say this.

818
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 2: It will be a problem going forward.

819
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 1: There will be hard line factions, yes, of both the

820
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: Talcanill and the Wakandons, who go that's it.

821
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 2: No, this is not over.

822
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: Certainly the Wacanons are going to say we some Wakandans

823
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: are going to say, we lost how many soldiers and

824
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 1: now we just let it go.

825
00:47:58,440 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 2: Pursue this.

826
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 1: They attacked our cab, we lost the queen, and now

827
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: eight hundred soldiers dead. No, we're pursuing this to the end.

828
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: So this is gonna be an issue going forward. Wakanda rebuilds,

829
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: re re returns to mit, but the iron Heart Armor

830
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: has to say, Wakanda, that's pretty wise.

831
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 2: Nakia returns to Haiti.

832
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:19,240
Speaker 1: In Talakan, Nomura is giving Nay more shit for kneeling

833
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: to the Wakandans, and he's like, no, no, trust me.

834
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 1: This is fucking great because here's why we're allied with

835
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: the strongest nation of the surface world by far, and

836
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: one day the rest of the surface world is gonna attack.

837
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 1: Wakanda isolate. They have no we're our only friend, and

838
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 1: they will wage war against Wakanda and when that happens,

839
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 1: Wakanda and Talikan together will defeat the surface world.

840
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:43,959
Speaker 3: Love that great plan.

841
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 1: Suri blows off her official coronation at Warrior Falls to

842
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: go to Haiti, and there she burns her funeral garb,

843
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: just as her mother wanted her to. In America, a

844
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: Koya Freeze ever ross from custody. He is coming back

845
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: to Wakanda with everyone, and in the sting in Haiti,

846
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: Suri burns her funeral garb and Nikia introduces her to

847
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 1: her son to 'challa's son, Prince T'Challa, who looks to

848
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 1: be about six years old. What a movie Your quick thoughts?

849
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, very emotional, beautiful cinematography, great performances. My biggest takeaway

850
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 3: is No More. I absolutely adored the Talakanal stuff. I

851
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 3: really want to know more about No More. I think

852
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 3: it's set him up as a true you know, we

853
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 3: talked about this before, but kill Monger is right with

854
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 3: such a huge thing coming off Black Panther. I feel

855
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 3: like with No More, it's like five thousand times stronger argument,

856
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 3: and I'm really I wish there'd been a little bit

857
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,399
Speaker 3: more and No More. I think she's incredible, also very

858
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 3: ironic because a lot of the inspiration here was probably

859
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 3: taken from Namora Number one, the original introduction of that

860
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 3: character from the Golden Age setting at a Mayan underground

861
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 3: secret society they worship of God Couko Khan, you know,

862
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 3: so a lot of inspiration was taken from that. I'd

863
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 3: like to see more of No More, No More, but

864
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 3: I like that conflict they set up between the two

865
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 3: of them, where he might be he might end up

866
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:12,759
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867
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 3: more of the Magneto. Also, we'll say, look, I love

868
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 3: the X Men. Yeah, but I feel like currently No

869
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 3: More is really gonna be that Magnio staff figure for

870
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:28,360
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871
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872
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Speaker 1: to zebiotics for sponsoring this episode. Welcome to another chapter

938
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 1: in the Omibus where lower analysis and understanding come together.

939
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 1: This week Afrofuturism and the Black Panther. The Black Panther

940
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 1: and Wakanda are an early example of afrofuturism, which is

941
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 1: a term coined by cultural critic Mark Derry in his

942
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,720
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three Say Black to the Future, which explored

943
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 1: the paucity of black creators in sci fi. Filmmaker and

944
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: scholar Yatasha L. Womack, in her book Afrofuturism The World

945
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: of Black Sci Fi and Fantasy Culture, defines the movement

946
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 1: as quote both an artistic aesthetic and a framework for

947
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 1: critical theory. That quote come by elements of science fiction,

948
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: historical fiction, speculative fiction, fantasy, afrocentricity, and magic realism with

949
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 1: non Western beliefs. Some other examples of Afrofuturism that you

950
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,760
Speaker 1: might be aware of, or the works of Jean Michel Bosquiat,

951
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 1: the Jimmy Hendricks Experience, Parliament, Funkadelics kind of like ufo

952
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 1: esthetic and lore, the works of Octavia Butler, and the

953
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 1: late rapper MF. Doom Wakanda is the most technologically advanced

954
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: superpower on Earth in the MCU, a utopia melding supercomputers,

955
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: incredible weapons, spaceships with fictional African traditions, the Rasia of

956
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 1: the heart shaped Herb, Warrior falls, and so on. At

957
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: a time when racial caricaturing of non white characters was commonplace,

958
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 1: see any of Marvel comics or any comics at all.

959
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:05,399
Speaker 1: DC Anybody's nineteen sixties depiction of Asian characters and any

960
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: character of color. Really, kirbyan Lee avoided such pitfalls with

961
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 1: the creation of Ch'chala without a doubt, Loyola professor Dilifu

962
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:18,280
Speaker 1: Nama writes in his book Super Black American pop Culture

963
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 1: and Black Superheroes, The Black Panther and Wakanda offered unprecedented

964
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:28,320
Speaker 1: and upbeat images of Africa and African people. When Reid Richard's,

965
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 1: among course the most very brilliant minds in the Marvel Universe,

966
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: first count encounters Wakandan technology.

967
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 2: He's blown away.

968
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 1: Quote he took a metal device from inside his toga,

969
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: Reid says in Fantastic four number fifty two. But it's

970
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 1: so small. Can he actually transmit a message halfway around

971
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: the globe with that? As radical as the intersection of

972
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 1: technology and blackness is the presentation of Wakanda as a

973
00:56:56,200 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: nation which has time and again successfully defended itself from

974
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: European invasion and colonization. Wakana compels respect from the world's

975
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 1: great nations, its superheroes, and it's supervillains. The nation has

976
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: no history of colonial trauma to transcend Wacana's existence as

977
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: a free, self sufficient geopolitical power is a powerful critique

978
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: of colonialism and the economic exploitation of Africa. The introduction

979
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 1: of Ulysses Claw sharpens that point of Belgian mercenary, son

980
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 1: of a Nazi war criminal, Claw, the Black Panther's nemesis,

981
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: is obsessed with obtaining Wakana's vibranium to Chile's origin story

982
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: rising from the title of Black Panther after beating back

983
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: clause murderous assault on his nation, is as NAMA Rights quote,

984
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: the idealized composite of Third world black revolutionaries and the

985
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: anti colonialist movement of the nineteen fifties that they represented.

986
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: The first Black Panther film calls on numerous elements from

987
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 1: T'Challa's comics canon, the most notable being for Me Panther's

988
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 1: Rage and the Client. The former is a storyline which

989
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 1: is an epic storyline written by Don McGregor with art

990
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:06,959
Speaker 1: by Rick Buckler, Billy Graham, and Gil Kine, which played

991
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: out in the pages of Black Panthers solo book, then

992
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 1: embarrassing titled Jungle Action from September nineteen seventy three to

993
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 1: November nineteen seventy five. Rosie tell us more about Bill Graham.

994
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, Panther's Rage is a really monumental book, not just

995
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 3: because it's widely seen as one of the best arcs

996
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 3: of Black Panther, but also it was drawn predominantly by

997
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 3: Billy Graham, who is arguably the first black creator who

998
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:36,640
Speaker 3: was hired by the Big Two. The book also had

999
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 3: a black uncredited assistant on it, Arvil Jones, and Billy

1000
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 3: Graham had already done work at Marvel because he had

1001
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 3: inked the first ever issue of Luke k Chero for

1002
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 3: Hire in nineteen seventy two and continued to ink or

1003
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 3: pencil that book for its first sixteen issues. One of

1004
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 3: the things that's most memorable about Billy's art on Panthers

1005
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 3: Rage are these unbelievable title pages. He would draw, these

1006
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 3: huge names written out of rock, and Billy has long

1007
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 3: been an undercredited part of Marvel history. So it's really

1008
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 3: wonderful to see people revisit Panther's Rage and learn about

1009
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 3: the impact that Billy and his art had on Black

1010
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 3: Panther and this landmark arc.

1011
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: The Client is an art written by Christopher Priest with

1012
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 1: art by Mark to Share It not the baseball player

1013
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 1: part of a character redefining run on the Black Panther

1014
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 1: solo title, which was first published in the late nineties

1015
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 1: and is just tremendously influential, Like unbelievably influential in Panther's Rage, T'Challa,

1016
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 1: back in Wakanda after many years in the States, is

1017
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: struggling to adapt to a nation that has kind of

1018
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 1: been is in the midst of kind of coming apart

1019
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 1: because of pallace intrigue, and he's trying to balance his

1020
00:59:56,040 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 1: love life and also his responsibilities as a leader. And

1021
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 1: he faces his most dangerous nemesis yet, a Condon named

1022
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: and Jadaka who spent time in America changed his name

1023
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 1: to Eric Kilmonger. Panthers Rage was groundbreaking comic storytelling. The

1024
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 1: story was set completely in Africa, in Wakana, far from

1025
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 1: the urban settings in which most you know, kind of

1026
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 1: mainstream media stories set in a black context were told,

1027
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 1: and it was quote at a time when strident expressions

1028
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 1: of black cultural pride were cresting in the United States.

1029
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 1: Right It's Nama and super Black. The story unfolds over

1030
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 1: thirteen issues, which was this was not done back then.

1031
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 1: This was not really done in comics. The thirteen issue story,

1032
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 1: like arc didn't really happen back then when it was

1033
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 1: hard to find comics, like you didn't know most people

1034
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 1: got them off the rack. There were not that many

1035
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 1: comics stores, and so to do a thirteen issue arc

1036
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 1: was really it was an investment, and it was and

1037
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: it was It's cool that it happened, but it was

1038
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: really your trusting people are going to be able to

1039
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 1: find these comics and follow the story. It has been

1040
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 1: described as Marvel's first graphic novel. The Crease Skrull War,

1041
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 1: for instance, which was published in nineteen seventy one seventy two,

1042
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 1: was told over eight issues in the pages of The Avengers.

1043
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 1: Panthers were aged features, with one exception, the villain Venom

1044
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 1: and All Black cast, a first from mainstream comics. In

1045
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 1: their first confrontation, Kilmunger tosses the Black Panther over Warrior falls,

1046
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 1: declaring your line of dissent and you'll take nothing for

1047
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 1: me ever again. Goodbye, great and mighty King. You've returned

1048
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 1: to the land of your birth, only to die here.

1049
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 1: T Chila bounces back from this defeat much quicker than

1050
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 1: he does in the first Panther film. But this, you know,

1051
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 1: this defeat really shakes to childdo his Core and its

1052
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 1: subsequent issues, he faces various challenges to his authority. Christopher Priest,

1053
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:00,919
Speaker 1: who in nineteen eighty three he became the first black

1054
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 1: writer be hired at the big two comic houses, Marvel

1055
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 1: and DC, began writing Black Panther in nineteen ninety eight.

1056
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 1: At the time, this was a really tenuous time in

1057
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 1: comics written large and in particularly at Marvel, which was

1058
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 1: just then emerging from bankruptcy after the kind of collectibles

1059
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 1: wide bust of the early to mid aughts that included

1060
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 1: comics and included beanie babies, included trading cards, etc. All

1061
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 1: those things just tanked, and the company at that time

1062
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 1: was just kind of willing to try shit, just throw

1063
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 1: anything at the wall and see if anything came of it.

1064
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 1: One of those things was a new line of edgier

1065
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 1: comics branded as Marvel Knights. kN Ights Editors Joe Casada

1066
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 1: and Jimmy Palmiatti approached Priest about Black Panther. Christopher was

1067
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 1: initially hesitant to do it, but he accepted and it

1068
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 1: was a transformational run, breathing new energy to the character

1069
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 1: and lore. Quote he had the classic run on Black

1070
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: Panther period, and that's going to be true for a

1071
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:09,919
Speaker 1: long time. Tom mcacy coats Black Panther writer and now

1072
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 1: Superman writer told Vultures Abraham Raisman in twenty eighteen, Priest

1073
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 1: brought a real kingly wait to T'Challa's character. Contrast this

1074
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 1: with Panther's rage, where T'Challa was more unsure of his

1075
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:33,440
Speaker 1: leadership and how to wield it. In Priest telling, T'Challa

1076
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 1: was a leader, was a king, was a ruler, and

1077
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 1: exuded that confidence in the client.

1078
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 2: He just commands total respect.

1079
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 1: And while Priests did not create the Black Panther, it's

1080
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 1: really in many ways his version of the character that

1081
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 1: you see in the MCU. Priests and artist Mark Tashera

1082
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 1: tell the tale in a kind of jumble, fractured style

1083
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 1: that feels, you know, very Quentin Tarantino ask very of

1084
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 1: the time period of the nineties. It's about the Tomorrow Fund,

1085
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:11,840
Speaker 1: which is a Kanda project to create affordable housing in

1086
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 1: kind of downtrodden urban areas. It's been revealed as a

1087
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 1: cover for a money laundering operation for drug money. A

1088
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:22,560
Speaker 1: young girl who appears in the fund's ad with T'Challa

1089
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:27,680
Speaker 1: is murdered, and despite tensions arising for war refugees sheltering Wakanda.

1090
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 1: The king travels to the US to try and figure out, like, okay,

1091
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:35,880
Speaker 1: what's going on with this Tomorrow fund and to you know,

1092
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 1: like to bring those responsible to justice. He's accompanied by

1093
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 1: his personal bodyguards, Nikia and Akoye, members of the elite

1094
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:47,480
Speaker 1: all female fighting force known as the Doramalaje.

1095
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 2: Quote.

1096
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 1: The concept of the dormalage Wakanda for adored ones evolved

1097
01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 1: out of the brilliant work of Panther scribe Don McGregor,

1098
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 1: who theorized Wakanda was actually made up of a great

1099
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 1: many indigenous tribes and that not all the tribes liked

1100
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: each other. Priest writes on his website, Digitalpriest dot com. Quote,

1101
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 1: Joe and Jimmy just thought it'd be cool to have

1102
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:12,160
Speaker 1: Panther travel with a pair of six foot tall, gorgeous women,

1103
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 1: and I certainly agreed.

1104
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:15,360
Speaker 2: But the order of the.

1105
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 1: Door of a Ladje, a kind of nun wife in

1106
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 1: training deal gave us a foot in both the worlds.

1107
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:23,120
Speaker 1: The panther struggled to maintain peace between the modern and

1108
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 1: the tribal end quote. The story is told mainly through

1109
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 1: the recollections of one colonizer Everett Ross Cia agent Everett

1110
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:35,880
Speaker 1: ross Kind in the comics, a mid level State Department

1111
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 1: bureaucrat who's ostensibly assigned to d'challa as his kind of

1112
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 1: like point of contact with the US government, but whose

1113
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 1: actual job is to spy on him. A preset inspiration

1114
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 1: for Ross was hilariously chandler bing from Friends and Alex P.

1115
01:05:55,480 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 1: Keaton from the nineteen eighties sitcom Family Ties. The inclusion

1116
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 1: of Ross as a narrator was this really subversive moment.

1117
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:06,760
Speaker 2: Quote.

1118
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 1: With Ross in place, the book began to take shape,

1119
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:10,600
Speaker 1: Priest writes on Digital priest dot Com.

1120
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:11,760
Speaker 2: Quote continues.

1121
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:13,920
Speaker 1: Ross became the key to making the book work. He

1122
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:16,080
Speaker 1: was the voice of the average Marvel reader, who, in

1123
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:19,240
Speaker 1: no doubt wondered why Marvel was bothering with another Panther series.

1124
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 1: Ross's monologues began to steal the show, offsetting the mysterious

1125
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:25,480
Speaker 1: night creature of the man a few words who Ross

1126
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 1: was attached to. The monologues were alf and outrageous, with

1127
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:31,840
Speaker 1: Ross interpreting the Marvel universe through his every man's eyes

1128
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:34,000
Speaker 1: rather than through the eyes of someone who's been reading

1129
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 1: comics all their life. It was a new voice, one

1130
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 1: seemingly hostile towards the Marvel universe and by extension, it's fans,

1131
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:43,080
Speaker 1: But actually the intent is to be a social observer

1132
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:46,400
Speaker 1: and a deconstructionist end quote. In his Nomo Notes and

1133
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:49,080
Speaker 1: Super Black quote, the Ross figure provides the reader with

1134
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 1: the choice of identifying with either the white figure or

1135
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:54,960
Speaker 1: the black superhero, or both of them, but never exclusively

1136
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 1: with the black protagonists. In this sense, Ross's character is

1137
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 1: a nifty technique for addressing whether or not readers will

1138
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 1: identify with a black superhero, namely T'Challa. By the mid

1139
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 1: two thousands, Priest had burned out at Marvel, frustrated by

1140
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:11,280
Speaker 1: a lack of opportunities to write a list characters.

1141
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 2: Quote.

1142
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:15,800
Speaker 1: I've mentioned this a lot in interviews, Priest told CBR

1143
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 1: dot Com in twenty twenty. But long story short, somehow, bizarrely,

1144
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:21,640
Speaker 1: as a result of my writing Black Panther, a comic

1145
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:24,960
Speaker 1: book about the cultural awakening of a white man named Ross,

1146
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:28,640
Speaker 1: I stopped being a writer and somehow became a black writer.

1147
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:32,440
Speaker 1: Offered only writing assignments for characters for color end quote.

1148
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 1: Priest returned to comics in twenty sixteen when DC offered

1149
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:37,760
Speaker 1: him the writing duties on Death Stroke as part of

1150
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:41,120
Speaker 1: the company's rebirth launch. That title ended in twenty nineteen,

1151
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:45,600
Speaker 1: and as early as twenty twenty one, Priest was working

1152
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 1: on the relaunch of Vampirella for Dynamite Comics.

1153
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:53,840
Speaker 3: Okay, and this is actually incredible because Billy Graham's first

1154
01:07:53,880 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 3: known credited work was actually on a Vampirella comic, illustrating

1155
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:03,200
Speaker 3: Don Glas in Vampirella. I think it was number one

1156
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty nine, and he would go on to

1157
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:12,640
Speaker 3: actually pencil nearly like a dozen stories and inc Vamprella stories.

1158
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:16,320
Speaker 3: So it's kind of amazing that there's also that connection

1159
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 3: between what Priests is doing now and then where Billy

1160
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:21,719
Speaker 3: found a home at the beginning of his career.

1161
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:25,719
Speaker 1: Up next to conversation with Ironheart writer Eve l Ewing,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Hive Mind, where we explore topic in

1249
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Speaker 1: more detail with the help of expert guests. This week,

1250
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 1: we're absolutely honored to have evaluing author, academic poet, writer

1251
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 1: of Marvel's Ironheart series, which reinvented re Rey and who

1252
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:28,960
Speaker 1: of course makes her mcudbut in black panther kind of

1253
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:32,160
Speaker 1: forever Eve. Welcome to X Revision.

1254
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:33,800
Speaker 4: Oh thanks for having me.

1255
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:36,439
Speaker 8: I am a super fan of the podcast, as y'all know,

1256
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:38,479
Speaker 8: so this is very exciting for me. It's a big

1257
01:13:38,479 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 8: career moment for me, big career.

1258
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:46,280
Speaker 3: To have you on the show. Oh, it's something just

1259
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:48,920
Speaker 3: so wonderful to talk to people who make comics who

1260
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:51,640
Speaker 3: love this stuff like we do. So first of all, like,

1261
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:54,880
Speaker 3: what was your comic book origin story? What made you

1262
01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:56,160
Speaker 3: fall in love with comics?

1263
01:13:56,840 --> 01:14:00,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, well, my comic book origin story is a little unique,

1264
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:02,639
Speaker 8: I think in that I would not have been born

1265
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:06,000
Speaker 8: without comics. And what I mean by that is that

1266
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:10,520
Speaker 8: my dad in the eighties was making and self publishing

1267
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:13,400
Speaker 8: like comic books that are basically like zines.

1268
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:15,679
Speaker 2: Oh wow, and so cool.

1269
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:17,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very cool.

1270
01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:20,280
Speaker 8: I have tracked down some of these and he's pretty

1271
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:23,320
Speaker 8: mortified at them now, but I think they're cool. And

1272
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:28,040
Speaker 8: in the eighties, my parents were both waiting at a

1273
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:31,720
Speaker 8: Greyhound bus station in Chicago to head back to their

1274
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 8: respective hometowns for the holidays, and my dad was there

1275
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:39,400
Speaker 8: selling these comic books for a dollar, and my mom

1276
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:41,840
Speaker 8: bought one, and her and her friends had been like

1277
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:44,240
Speaker 8: pregaming the greyhound, so they were like a little.

1278
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:46,920
Speaker 4: Tipsy, you know, as one does.

1279
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:49,719
Speaker 8: And she had never ridden the bus by herself before,

1280
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:52,000
Speaker 8: and so they were getting on the same bus and

1281
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:54,679
Speaker 8: her friends kind of like drunkenly said to my dad

1282
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:57,360
Speaker 8: like you know, we have your comic book, and if

1283
01:14:57,400 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 8: something happens to our friend, like we'll find you, you know,

1284
01:15:00,160 --> 01:15:03,240
Speaker 8: responsible for her because there was no internet, and so

1285
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:05,840
Speaker 8: he had like his you know, his mailing address and

1286
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:09,240
Speaker 8: his phone number on this thing. And so so that's

1287
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:12,559
Speaker 8: how my parents met. And so it's like a very

1288
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:16,840
Speaker 8: literal origin story. And then my first comics as a kid.

1289
01:15:16,960 --> 01:15:19,479
Speaker 8: I feel now like confident enough in myself to say

1290
01:15:19,479 --> 01:15:21,680
Speaker 8: this that I was a big Archie comics fan. I

1291
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:25,519
Speaker 8: think for many years, I yeah, didn't feel confident, uh

1292
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:27,519
Speaker 8: sharing that, but I started reading Archie when I was

1293
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:30,559
Speaker 8: in kindergarten and that was kind of my first you

1294
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:33,720
Speaker 8: know Archie. They would like often reprint old comic like

1295
01:15:33,760 --> 01:15:36,200
Speaker 8: old strips in the same issue with new ones, and

1296
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:38,600
Speaker 8: so that was also my introduction as a kid to

1297
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:41,559
Speaker 8: the idea of like recurring characters and that different people

1298
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:44,599
Speaker 8: can like have different takes on things and like letters

1299
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:46,800
Speaker 8: to the editor and all these sorts of things. And

1300
01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:50,120
Speaker 8: then in middle school Chicago at the time when I

1301
01:15:50,160 --> 01:15:53,160
Speaker 8: was growing up, you know, like every week in our

1302
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 8: local all weekly, I would be reading like Linda Barry

1303
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 8: and Ivan Brunetti and Chris Ware. So it was like

1304
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:02,080
Speaker 8: a really great time for comics and cartooning. And then

1305
01:16:02,120 --> 01:16:05,559
Speaker 8: in high school I started getting more into superhero comics.

1306
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:08,439
Speaker 8: I'll shout out like Chicago Comics and Quimby's, which is

1307
01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:11,080
Speaker 8: a place that has some amazing zine collection. You know,

1308
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:13,320
Speaker 8: I was reading like superhero stuff, but also like Joan

1309
01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:16,200
Speaker 8: and Vasquez and you know, yeah.

1310
01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:21,680
Speaker 3: Baby Jennie the homicidal maniac. Yeah, age was it was.

1311
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:22,400
Speaker 4: That was the thing.

1312
01:16:22,439 --> 01:16:24,000
Speaker 8: And you know it was also like a great time

1313
01:16:24,040 --> 01:16:27,360
Speaker 8: for animation. You know, like Samurai Jack came out when

1314
01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:31,200
Speaker 8: I was fifteen. I promise, I'll wrap up this long story.

1315
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:34,640
Speaker 1: So and I don't know this is why.

1316
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 8: Well, you know, since we're at like my first when

1317
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 8: I was in high school, I signed up to take

1318
01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:42,639
Speaker 8: this history of animation class at the University of Chicago,

1319
01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:45,840
Speaker 8: where I now teach, and I learned about like Jan

1320
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:50,360
Speaker 8: Schwanckmeyer and like Windsor McKay and yeah, so, like I

1321
01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 8: would say, animation and comics and cartooning were all very

1322
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:55,639
Speaker 8: much of a piece for me. And then the last

1323
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:57,960
Speaker 8: thing in this epic origin story is that when I

1324
01:16:58,080 --> 01:17:03,599
Speaker 8: was fifteen or sixteen, at the Chicago Humanities Festival, Neil

1325
01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:07,479
Speaker 8: Gaiman was interviewing Will Eisner, and my dad took me

1326
01:17:07,640 --> 01:17:11,519
Speaker 8: to see that interview, and so that was pretty amazing,

1327
01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:14,800
Speaker 8: especially because later on, and you know, if we talk

1328
01:17:14,840 --> 01:17:17,320
Speaker 8: about like the not so fun part of comics, later

1329
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:20,240
Speaker 8: I had the very surreal experience of Neil Gaman like

1330
01:17:20,280 --> 01:17:23,759
Speaker 8: defending me on the internet from comics on people.

1331
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:25,760
Speaker 4: So that was pretty cool. I was like, Wow, you're

1332
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:26,479
Speaker 4: really important to me.

1333
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 8: But you know, I think that like when I was

1334
01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:31,320
Speaker 8: in high school, I never People always say like, did

1335
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:32,679
Speaker 8: you think that you would write comics?

1336
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:36,599
Speaker 4: And I absolutely didn't because I never I never.

1337
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:40,120
Speaker 8: Saw anybody who looked like me doing it, and and

1338
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:41,679
Speaker 8: I think that there are many people in this world

1339
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:44,000
Speaker 8: who have the imagination to kind of insert themselves in

1340
01:17:44,040 --> 01:17:46,439
Speaker 8: the narratives where they haven't been and I just didn't have.

1341
01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:47,480
Speaker 4: That level of imagination.

1342
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:49,719
Speaker 8: So I was like, oh, you know, this is something

1343
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:52,000
Speaker 8: I'm always gonna love, but I'll never get a chance

1344
01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:55,679
Speaker 8: to do. But I did, as I started taking myself

1345
01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:59,080
Speaker 8: pretty seriously as a writer across lots of genres. You know,

1346
01:17:59,120 --> 01:18:01,200
Speaker 8: I was reading a lot of Ivan Brunetti and Scott

1347
01:18:01,280 --> 01:18:03,839
Speaker 8: McLeod and stuff like that, because I also and I still,

1348
01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 8: you know, to students and all kinds of people who

1349
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:07,800
Speaker 8: just want to talk about like how to be a

1350
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:11,559
Speaker 8: great writer, I tell them like, read understanding comics, read

1351
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:14,519
Speaker 8: cartoon in philosophy, and practice right because I think that

1352
01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:16,720
Speaker 8: they have a lot to teach us just about like

1353
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:20,400
Speaker 8: narrative in general and storytelling in general. So yeah, I

1354
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:23,559
Speaker 8: think that before I even started writing comics, a lot

1355
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:27,080
Speaker 8: of my other writing was very informed by that tradition.

1356
01:18:29,840 --> 01:18:33,599
Speaker 1: Just from that answer, I think people who maybe are

1357
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:37,880
Speaker 1: not familiar with your work or you are, are getting

1358
01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:43,439
Speaker 1: the picture of how incredibly varied and well rounded you are.

1359
01:18:43,840 --> 01:18:46,000
Speaker 1: You know, if that's the right. Thank you for the

1360
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:48,840
Speaker 1: for the amount of stuff that that you know about

1361
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:53,120
Speaker 1: and that your intellect touches. And I wonder as so

1362
01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:56,920
Speaker 1: as you know, as an assistant professor, as.

1363
01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:02,880
Speaker 8: Oh I'm associate No, I'm telling okay officially, yeah, I

1364
01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:03,639
Speaker 8: can't be fired.

1365
01:19:03,680 --> 01:19:03,960
Speaker 4: I can.

1366
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:05,760
Speaker 2: I love it. You love to hear it.

1367
01:19:06,240 --> 01:19:07,560
Speaker 4: Pretty great scam.

1368
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:10,599
Speaker 1: You know, as an academic, as a sociologist, as an author,

1369
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:11,200
Speaker 1: as a poet.

1370
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:16,400
Speaker 2: How do how do all those things inform your work?

1371
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:17,040
Speaker 6: Uh?

1372
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:21,400
Speaker 1: You know, at any point in this range of things

1373
01:19:21,400 --> 01:19:22,400
Speaker 1: that you're interested in?

1374
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:24,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for asking that.

1375
01:19:24,840 --> 01:19:26,160
Speaker 8: I thought you were going to pivot to the whole

1376
01:19:26,160 --> 01:19:28,280
Speaker 8: rest of the interview being about Yan Schwankemeyer and like.

1377
01:19:28,280 --> 01:19:30,519
Speaker 2: Check trying to get there.

1378
01:19:34,200 --> 01:19:36,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, I think that at the end of

1379
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:39,040
Speaker 8: the day, I just want to tell stories.

1380
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:40,240
Speaker 4: I want to tell good stories.

1381
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:44,639
Speaker 8: And I think that not to get like too heady

1382
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:47,800
Speaker 8: or whatever, but you know, a lot of these get

1383
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:51,680
Speaker 8: intellect okay, please get a get any intellectuals that are

1384
01:19:51,760 --> 01:19:54,639
Speaker 8: most important to me, and particularly in the black intellectual tradition.

1385
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:55,840
Speaker 4: You know, people like W. E. B.

1386
01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:59,680
Speaker 8: Du Bois, people like Zuriel Hurston have always written all

1387
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:02,760
Speaker 8: kinds of things right, like across genre, and I think

1388
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:05,160
Speaker 8: that I think that a lot of times folks don't

1389
01:20:05,240 --> 01:20:07,760
Speaker 8: really want to give themselves permission to do that. But

1390
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:10,439
Speaker 8: for me, I try to approach any story or anything

1391
01:20:10,479 --> 01:20:12,600
Speaker 8: I want to write about and talk about and think, like,

1392
01:20:13,120 --> 01:20:15,040
Speaker 8: what is the medium that is best going to serve

1393
01:20:15,080 --> 01:20:17,120
Speaker 8: what it is I'm trying to say and do. And

1394
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:20,840
Speaker 8: also I think I'm really comfortable being a learner. I'm

1395
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:23,680
Speaker 8: really I used to teach middle school and that's a

1396
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:30,120
Speaker 8: great way to learn humility, you know, like comfort with

1397
01:20:30,200 --> 01:20:32,280
Speaker 8: being like, Okay, what can I do better today than

1398
01:20:32,320 --> 01:20:35,160
Speaker 8: I did yesterday. And I think, if anything, I'm I'm

1399
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:39,400
Speaker 8: really comfortable doing that. And so I think that you know,

1400
01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:42,479
Speaker 8: all this stuff that I write and and try to make,

1401
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:44,720
Speaker 8: you know, I've I've co written a play, and I

1402
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:47,760
Speaker 8: write poetry, and I do comics and working on some

1403
01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:50,200
Speaker 8: TV stuff, And I think what unites all those things

1404
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:52,200
Speaker 8: is just like what's the best possible story that we

1405
01:20:52,240 --> 01:20:55,840
Speaker 8: can tell? What are those fundamentals of really good storytelling,

1406
01:20:56,760 --> 01:20:58,559
Speaker 8: you know, and how do we how do we get there?

1407
01:20:59,320 --> 01:21:01,400
Speaker 8: And I also think I think, like I try to

1408
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:04,120
Speaker 8: do something in comics that I think is has always

1409
01:21:04,120 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 8: been part of the tradition, right, which is like using

1410
01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:09,240
Speaker 8: comics as a space to bring interesting questions about the

1411
01:21:09,280 --> 01:21:12,200
Speaker 8: world we live in, uh to readers in a very

1412
01:21:12,280 --> 01:21:16,880
Speaker 8: like pop culture, low brow way, you know. And I

1413
01:21:16,880 --> 01:21:20,479
Speaker 8: think that that's also like the kind of like pulpy, cheap,

1414
01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:23,519
Speaker 8: like crappy, low culture aspect of comics is something that

1415
01:21:23,560 --> 01:21:27,479
Speaker 8: I also really love and embrace. And you know, I

1416
01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:30,200
Speaker 8: have a graphic novel coming out this coming next year

1417
01:21:30,200 --> 01:21:32,000
Speaker 8: in March, but prior to that, I'd never written a

1418
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:34,160
Speaker 8: graphic novel, and you know, like a lot of my

1419
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:36,160
Speaker 8: colleagues and stuff who don't know anything about comics would

1420
01:21:36,160 --> 01:21:39,240
Speaker 8: be like, oh, congrats on your graphic novel, right, because

1421
01:21:39,240 --> 01:21:41,720
Speaker 8: they basically saw graphic novels like a polite word for.

1422
01:21:42,040 --> 01:21:45,479
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, it's the comics is the that you haud

1423
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:46,280
Speaker 3: didn't yeah.

1424
01:21:47,400 --> 01:21:50,040
Speaker 8: You know yeah, And people thought that they were like

1425
01:21:50,080 --> 01:21:51,600
Speaker 8: insulting me and they had to use this kind of

1426
01:21:51,640 --> 01:21:54,880
Speaker 8: like euphemism. And I'm super into that. I'm super into

1427
01:21:54,960 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 8: like pulpy, cheap garbage stories written on like you know,

1428
01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:03,719
Speaker 8: paper literally staple together, like so I'm sold on paper

1429
01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:04,960
Speaker 8: that is like not very good.

1430
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:06,240
Speaker 4: I'm totally into that.

1431
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:09,280
Speaker 8: And I think it puts comics alongside jazz, alongside him

1432
01:22:09,320 --> 01:22:12,880
Speaker 8: hu as you know, kind of like a great subterranean

1433
01:22:13,320 --> 01:22:13,760
Speaker 8: art form.

1434
01:22:14,360 --> 01:22:16,559
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I think one of the things that's so

1435
01:22:16,720 --> 01:22:20,639
Speaker 3: powerful is the certain level of freedom you get from

1436
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:25,120
Speaker 3: writing something that's like disposable or disposed for real time.

1437
01:22:25,720 --> 01:22:28,479
Speaker 3: And how does it feel like, so, say, like poetry

1438
01:22:28,520 --> 01:22:33,320
Speaker 3: collection like Electric Arches, which definitely deals with a lot

1439
01:22:33,320 --> 01:22:35,799
Speaker 3: of the same themes and interest, the kind of cosmic

1440
01:22:35,920 --> 01:22:39,360
Speaker 3: mixed with the mundane. What kind of freedom do you

1441
01:22:39,439 --> 01:22:41,639
Speaker 3: get when you take those themes and you take them

1442
01:22:41,680 --> 01:22:45,240
Speaker 3: out of a poetry space, a very structured space, and

1443
01:22:45,280 --> 01:22:47,439
Speaker 3: then you put them onto the page in a comic book.

1444
01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:50,160
Speaker 3: How different is that for you? And how much fun

1445
01:22:50,200 --> 01:22:51,880
Speaker 3: do you get to have in that in that world

1446
01:22:51,920 --> 01:22:52,479
Speaker 3: of panels?

1447
01:22:52,479 --> 01:22:57,559
Speaker 8: And oh, you know, I see, actually I see in like,

1448
01:22:57,640 --> 01:22:59,360
Speaker 8: if I were to categorize the work that I do,

1449
01:22:59,439 --> 01:23:01,720
Speaker 8: I see kind of poetry and comics as being of

1450
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 8: a piece and that I think both of them are

1451
01:23:04,400 --> 01:23:06,439
Speaker 8: places where I feel a lot of permission to just

1452
01:23:06,479 --> 01:23:08,280
Speaker 8: do wild stuff and just say.

1453
01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:09,639
Speaker 4: Whatever you know and do whatever.

1454
01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:12,640
Speaker 8: But I think the difference about comics is that, like

1455
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:16,960
Speaker 8: you know, it's such a collaborative medium, and so for me,

1456
01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:20,639
Speaker 8: you know, the poetry in my first book, Electric Arches,

1457
01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:23,320
Speaker 8: which you're so kind to mention, is is very much

1458
01:23:23,360 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 8: about imagination, is very much about you know, afrofuturism and

1459
01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:31,559
Speaker 8: exploration and time travel and like weird space stuff. But

1460
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:34,040
Speaker 8: to bring in the visual element of that is just

1461
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:38,080
Speaker 8: so magical to me. And I feel, you know, I've

1462
01:23:38,080 --> 01:23:40,040
Speaker 8: gotten to work with a lot of different artists at

1463
01:23:40,040 --> 01:23:44,400
Speaker 8: this point, and I feel like really grateful for all

1464
01:23:44,439 --> 01:23:46,840
Speaker 8: of them, and really grateful for the process. And I

1465
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:48,880
Speaker 8: think that for folks who have never been on the

1466
01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:51,400
Speaker 8: creator side of comics, just really wrapping your mind around

1467
01:23:51,479 --> 01:23:53,599
Speaker 8: how many people go into making one thing. I think

1468
01:23:53,720 --> 01:23:56,000
Speaker 8: is often something that surprises a lot of people. So

1469
01:23:56,360 --> 01:23:58,640
Speaker 8: you know, you pick up a comic book that's at

1470
01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:03,200
Speaker 8: least one editor, right, at least one writer, somebody doing pencils,

1471
01:24:03,240 --> 01:24:06,240
Speaker 8: somebody maybe doing layout, somebody doing inks, somebody doing colors,

1472
01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:09,360
Speaker 8: somebody doing lettering, right, And I really love working with

1473
01:24:09,400 --> 01:24:13,680
Speaker 8: all those folks, and in particular with Ironheart being my

1474
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:16,559
Speaker 8: first kind of like big two comics experience, I got

1475
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:20,040
Speaker 8: really lucky working with with Luciano Vecchio for most of

1476
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:22,120
Speaker 8: the run. Also shout out to Kevin Lebronda, who started

1477
01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:24,599
Speaker 8: out the run, but most of the issues are drawn

1478
01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:29,160
Speaker 8: by Luciano, who's just like an amazing, wonderful person. And

1479
01:24:29,240 --> 01:24:31,639
Speaker 8: so that aspect of it is really different than poetry

1480
01:24:31,680 --> 01:24:34,280
Speaker 8: or other forms of writing, where it's like I'm trying

1481
01:24:34,320 --> 01:24:36,040
Speaker 8: to take stuff from my brain and say it on

1482
01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:39,160
Speaker 8: paper and then turning it over with a lot of

1483
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:42,320
Speaker 8: trust and a lot of gratitude to really brilliant people

1484
01:24:42,400 --> 01:24:44,679
Speaker 8: who are gonna bring it to life in a different way.

1485
01:24:45,360 --> 01:24:47,400
Speaker 8: And so that's something that I that I really appreciate.

1486
01:24:47,400 --> 01:24:49,320
Speaker 8: And one of the biggest things that I try to

1487
01:24:49,320 --> 01:24:52,519
Speaker 8: tell you know, folks who are again like as I'm

1488
01:24:52,520 --> 01:24:54,479
Speaker 8: teaching or talking to folks about coming into the space

1489
01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:57,080
Speaker 8: is like an artist on a comic book is not

1490
01:24:57,120 --> 01:24:57,800
Speaker 8: an illustrator.

1491
01:24:57,840 --> 01:24:58,800
Speaker 4: Their job is not to.

1492
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:03,800
Speaker 8: Compliment or like make pretty what you're doing right, Like

1493
01:25:03,880 --> 01:25:06,360
Speaker 8: they are doing fifty percent or more of the work

1494
01:25:06,720 --> 01:25:08,400
Speaker 8: through their craft and translating.

1495
01:25:08,520 --> 01:25:11,240
Speaker 3: They translate your script into the comic book, you know.

1496
01:25:11,439 --> 01:25:13,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, and there and like visual art is what makes

1497
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:16,519
Speaker 8: comics what they are, right, And so I think it's

1498
01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:19,920
Speaker 8: also been really amazing for me to live into some

1499
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:22,720
Speaker 8: of my principles as a writer about like parsimony and

1500
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:24,800
Speaker 8: less is more and showdown, tell and all that type

1501
01:25:24,800 --> 01:25:27,840
Speaker 8: of stuff becomes very literal in the comic space in

1502
01:25:27,880 --> 01:25:30,439
Speaker 8: a way that it isn't in like nonfiction or poetry

1503
01:25:30,479 --> 01:25:31,280
Speaker 8: or other things.

1504
01:25:32,720 --> 01:25:34,519
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could take us into that the

1505
01:25:34,920 --> 01:25:41,320
Speaker 1: kind of process that you uncovered through working on Ironheart,

1506
01:25:42,400 --> 01:25:45,599
Speaker 1: because you know, one of the things that I think

1507
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:48,160
Speaker 1: Rosie and I try to do with this pod is

1508
01:25:48,240 --> 01:25:51,759
Speaker 1: like point a way for people like Rosie and myself

1509
01:25:51,840 --> 01:25:54,280
Speaker 1: who fell in love with comics, fell in love with

1510
01:25:54,439 --> 01:25:59,040
Speaker 1: serialized storytelling to try and if they ever wanted to

1511
01:25:59,080 --> 01:26:02,759
Speaker 1: do that, find the creative outlet for themselves, to find

1512
01:26:02,760 --> 01:26:05,200
Speaker 1: the kind of like nuts and bolts things that they

1513
01:26:05,280 --> 01:26:08,240
Speaker 1: could you know, bring into their process that could help

1514
01:26:08,240 --> 01:26:08,800
Speaker 1: them get there.

1515
01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:11,920
Speaker 2: So what what was that? Like? What what is the what's.

1516
01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:15,680
Speaker 1: The storytelling process, the collaborative process, like on on on

1517
01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:17,680
Speaker 1: these issues. How do you how do you bring these

1518
01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:18,599
Speaker 1: stories to life?

1519
01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:19,559
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1520
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:21,240
Speaker 8: Well, you know, I think the first thing you have

1521
01:26:21,280 --> 01:26:22,639
Speaker 8: to get over is like immense fear.

1522
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:30,200
Speaker 1: I mean that's the biggest, the biggest obstacle for any.

1523
01:26:28,200 --> 01:26:33,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think that, you know, I something I like,

1524
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:34,960
Speaker 8: I've I've published a lot of stuff. I've written a

1525
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:37,760
Speaker 8: lot of stuff, and to this day, when I sit

1526
01:26:37,800 --> 01:26:39,479
Speaker 8: down to write a new thing, you know, I have

1527
01:26:39,560 --> 01:26:42,040
Speaker 8: that moment of terror of like I think I'm gonna

1528
01:26:42,040 --> 01:26:47,280
Speaker 8: throw up, you know, like I'm like i might die, Like.

1529
01:26:47,240 --> 01:26:48,320
Speaker 3: I might die from writing.

1530
01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:51,080
Speaker 4: Is today the day that writing finally gets me? You know?

1531
01:26:52,120 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 8: And so I think the biggest thing is like learning

1532
01:26:54,400 --> 01:26:57,879
Speaker 8: to push through that. Alexander Chi, who's an essayist and novelist,

1533
01:26:58,760 --> 01:27:00,400
Speaker 8: has this thing that he said that I'm I'm sort

1534
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:02,439
Speaker 8: of paraphrasing, but people should look it up from his book,

1535
01:27:02,439 --> 01:27:04,799
Speaker 8: which is called them How to Write an Autobiographical Novel,

1536
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:07,880
Speaker 8: which the title is misleading because it's not about that.

1537
01:27:08,600 --> 01:27:10,439
Speaker 8: It's just like a collection of essays, many of which

1538
01:27:10,439 --> 01:27:13,200
Speaker 8: are about writing. But one of the things he says

1539
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:15,479
Speaker 8: is like the difference between people who write and people

1540
01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:16,280
Speaker 8: who don't is being.

1541
01:27:16,120 --> 01:27:16,840
Speaker 4: Able to stand it.

1542
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:20,519
Speaker 8: And so I think the biggest thing is like learning

1543
01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:22,680
Speaker 8: to trust yourself and to work through some of those

1544
01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:26,880
Speaker 8: feelings of discomfort, and then beyond that, you know, I

1545
01:27:27,120 --> 01:27:29,640
Speaker 8: studied up a lot, I seek feedback a lot. I

1546
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:33,040
Speaker 8: think that who I am now. I'm working on what

1547
01:27:33,080 --> 01:27:35,320
Speaker 8: my next project is going to be for Marvel, which

1548
01:27:35,320 --> 01:27:37,559
Speaker 8: I really wish I could tell you because it's super exciting,

1549
01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:41,880
Speaker 8: superret But I'm working on that now, and I've had

1550
01:27:41,880 --> 01:27:43,840
Speaker 8: a lot of opportunities to reflect on like who I

1551
01:27:43,880 --> 01:27:45,880
Speaker 8: am now as a comics writer versus who I was

1552
01:27:45,920 --> 01:27:49,760
Speaker 8: in twenty eighteen trying to start Ironheart. And I think

1553
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:52,479
Speaker 8: that the biggest thing that I had on my side

1554
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:56,160
Speaker 8: was reading a lot, studying a lot. You know, some

1555
01:27:56,200 --> 01:27:58,320
Speaker 8: of those those books that we just talked about, you

1556
01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:01,639
Speaker 8: know a lot of certainly everything Scott McLeod wrote about comics.

1557
01:28:02,439 --> 01:28:04,800
Speaker 8: You know, Will Eisner's books. Greg Pak has a really

1558
01:28:04,840 --> 01:28:07,559
Speaker 8: great book called Making Comics Like the Pros or something

1559
01:28:07,560 --> 01:28:10,040
Speaker 8: like that, and he's amazing, but.

1560
01:28:10,040 --> 01:28:11,720
Speaker 4: Also like reaching out for help, you know.

1561
01:28:11,840 --> 01:28:14,000
Speaker 8: And so I had folks give me a lot of

1562
01:28:14,000 --> 01:28:18,280
Speaker 8: feedback on things and kind of push push me forward.

1563
01:28:19,080 --> 01:28:21,760
Speaker 8: And then even with that understanding that the first thing

1564
01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:23,439
Speaker 8: you write, like, you know, I look back at my

1565
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:25,800
Speaker 8: first issue of Ironheart and I'm like, you know, oh

1566
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:26,639
Speaker 8: my god, there's.

1567
01:28:26,479 --> 01:28:29,240
Speaker 4: So many things that I would never do, you know.

1568
01:28:29,360 --> 01:28:31,960
Speaker 8: And that's the truth for every comics writer I've ever

1569
01:28:32,000 --> 01:28:34,360
Speaker 8: spoken to, and they're like, oh, it's like nauseating to

1570
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:36,320
Speaker 8: look back at where you started, But you have to

1571
01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:37,920
Speaker 8: be willing to push through that, you know, you have

1572
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:40,680
Speaker 8: to be willing to kind of get over that. And

1573
01:28:40,720 --> 01:28:43,160
Speaker 8: I think for anybody who wants to write in any genre,

1574
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:45,400
Speaker 8: I think about this. I'm really into baking and I'm

1575
01:28:45,400 --> 01:28:46,280
Speaker 8: really into metaphors.

1576
01:28:46,320 --> 01:28:49,040
Speaker 4: So you know, one of my.

1577
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:51,080
Speaker 8: Favorite ways of thinking about this is like if I

1578
01:28:51,120 --> 01:28:52,600
Speaker 8: told you, if you're like, you know, I want to

1579
01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:54,599
Speaker 8: make a cake. Like I've seen cake, I've eaten cake,

1580
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:58,040
Speaker 8: really into it. It's tasty, it's delicious, it's beautiful. And

1581
01:28:58,320 --> 01:28:59,960
Speaker 8: you know, you took a bowl and you put like

1582
01:29:00,080 --> 01:29:02,880
Speaker 8: eggs and flour and milk and cocoa powder into a

1583
01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:04,559
Speaker 8: bowl and you start it up and you're like, this

1584
01:29:04,600 --> 01:29:06,479
Speaker 8: doesn't look like cake at all, Like this is discuss

1585
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:08,080
Speaker 8: you know, what is this? And you throw it in

1586
01:29:08,080 --> 01:29:11,120
Speaker 8: the garbage, like you you don't go that's you didn't finish.

1587
01:29:11,439 --> 01:29:12,599
Speaker 4: You didn't finish the process.

1588
01:29:12,920 --> 01:29:14,880
Speaker 8: And I think that a lot of folks they see

1589
01:29:14,920 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 8: the writing that they admire the most, and they see

1590
01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:20,439
Speaker 8: the finished product of that, and they don't realize exactly

1591
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:23,960
Speaker 8: how much like utter garbage, Sauce went into going from

1592
01:29:24,000 --> 01:29:27,000
Speaker 8: a first draft to a final product. And like you

1593
01:29:27,080 --> 01:29:29,240
Speaker 8: gotta put the cake in the in the pit, put

1594
01:29:29,280 --> 01:29:30,880
Speaker 8: the batter in the oven, and put the you know,

1595
01:29:30,920 --> 01:29:32,120
Speaker 8: put the batter in the pan, and put.

1596
01:29:32,040 --> 01:29:32,759
Speaker 4: The pan in the oven.

1597
01:29:33,280 --> 01:29:37,040
Speaker 8: And and I think that that's that's the secret.

1598
01:29:37,160 --> 01:29:41,000
Speaker 4: You know, I was a ton of hockey coats.

1599
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:43,479
Speaker 8: I'm very grateful to count him as a close, close

1600
01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:47,040
Speaker 8: friend and mentor. And I watched him be interviewed several

1601
01:29:47,120 --> 01:29:50,240
Speaker 8: years ago and somebody asked him about the case for reparations,

1602
01:29:50,960 --> 01:29:54,400
Speaker 8: which for those who only know him from comics and

1603
01:29:54,479 --> 01:29:56,400
Speaker 8: you know how him for his runs on im Cap

1604
01:29:56,400 --> 01:29:59,000
Speaker 8: and Black Panther. He you know, wrote this really important

1605
01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:02,680
Speaker 8: piece of nonfiction pros And you know, somebody said, I

1606
01:30:02,720 --> 01:30:04,240
Speaker 8: wish I could have written that. I could never have

1607
01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:06,599
Speaker 8: written that. He said, Oh, it was easy. You know,

1608
01:30:06,720 --> 01:30:08,759
Speaker 8: all I did was I wrote it badly five times.

1609
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:11,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, It's all you have to do.

1610
01:30:12,400 --> 01:30:13,639
Speaker 4: And I think that that's it.

1611
01:30:13,720 --> 01:30:16,519
Speaker 8: So, you know, unfortunately that's true about so many things,

1612
01:30:16,560 --> 01:30:20,880
Speaker 8: like you know, working out, exercise, like relationships, like all

1613
01:30:20,920 --> 01:30:22,639
Speaker 8: these things about life that we kind of wish were

1614
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:23,040
Speaker 8: just easy.

1615
01:30:23,120 --> 01:30:26,320
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, you just have to do the thing. I love

1616
01:30:26,400 --> 01:30:27,600
Speaker 4: that it sucks.

1617
01:30:27,880 --> 01:30:30,320
Speaker 3: Because that's what we always that when people we've done

1618
01:30:30,320 --> 01:30:33,160
Speaker 3: like mail book, mail Bag episodes and stuff, and people

1619
01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:35,160
Speaker 3: will say like, oh, how do you get into writing comics?

1620
01:30:35,200 --> 01:30:37,640
Speaker 3: How do you start writing? And true is you just

1621
01:30:37,680 --> 01:30:39,080
Speaker 3: got to make them. You got to do that what

1622
01:30:39,200 --> 01:30:41,840
Speaker 3: your dad did, You go to make it lean, You

1623
01:30:41,880 --> 01:30:44,120
Speaker 3: got to write a script, you got to write a pilot.

1624
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:47,160
Speaker 3: And you kind of touched on this, but you know

1625
01:30:48,080 --> 01:30:50,680
Speaker 3: throughout that that's your writing process, that's how you get

1626
01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:53,559
Speaker 3: it done. And you mentioned this, but like what was

1627
01:30:53,600 --> 01:30:56,840
Speaker 3: it like the first time that you still and still

1628
01:30:56,880 --> 01:30:58,519
Speaker 3: now because I know it's like the best feeling. But

1629
01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:01,519
Speaker 3: what was it like when you started to get the

1630
01:31:01,680 --> 01:31:04,559
Speaker 3: art back and you started to see oh my gosh, yeah,

1631
01:31:04,600 --> 01:31:07,320
Speaker 3: your story and really being brought to life in this

1632
01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:09,880
Speaker 3: form that you'd loved since you were a kid, and

1633
01:31:09,960 --> 01:31:12,840
Speaker 3: suddenly you're part of that process. How did that feel?

1634
01:31:13,439 --> 01:31:15,320
Speaker 4: Oh, it's mind blowing. I never get over it.

1635
01:31:15,360 --> 01:31:20,000
Speaker 8: I mean, yeah, getting art back is like the Grid's Christmas.

1636
01:31:20,040 --> 01:31:22,920
Speaker 8: I mean, it's like Christmas and your birthday, you know,

1637
01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:23,840
Speaker 8: rolled into one.

1638
01:31:24,200 --> 01:31:27,760
Speaker 4: And I think that.

1639
01:31:26,439 --> 01:31:29,880
Speaker 8: That's also part of why it's challenging to start, because

1640
01:31:29,920 --> 01:31:31,960
Speaker 8: when you when you write your first comic script, if

1641
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:34,840
Speaker 8: you're doing your own art, that's dope and actually secret

1642
01:31:34,920 --> 01:31:37,080
Speaker 8: since we're doing all kinds of secret confessionals of things

1643
01:31:37,080 --> 01:31:38,560
Speaker 8: I wouldn't normally say in interviews.

1644
01:31:39,160 --> 01:31:39,360
Speaker 3: You know.

1645
01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:43,439
Speaker 8: I actually in the early like twenty eleven, twenty twelve,

1646
01:31:43,439 --> 01:31:45,679
Speaker 8: I was like, oh, I'll probably just like self publish

1647
01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:46,360
Speaker 8: a lot of comics.

1648
01:31:46,320 --> 01:31:47,439
Speaker 4: So I was drawing.

1649
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:51,240
Speaker 8: I was writing and drawing well, and you know, and

1650
01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:54,040
Speaker 8: like and that. I mean for those who draw do

1651
01:31:54,120 --> 01:31:56,080
Speaker 8: visual art, it's the same thing, right, Like every time

1652
01:31:56,120 --> 01:31:58,439
Speaker 8: you sit down to put a pencil to paper, you

1653
01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:01,360
Speaker 8: learn something new at the limits of your own ability,

1654
01:32:01,520 --> 01:32:04,240
Speaker 8: right where you're like, oh man, people have wrists, like,

1655
01:32:04,400 --> 01:32:04,880
Speaker 8: you know, like.

1656
01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:09,760
Speaker 2: How do you what's a car?

1657
01:32:10,479 --> 01:32:10,960
Speaker 3: Dragon car?

1658
01:32:11,000 --> 01:32:12,519
Speaker 4: And you're like, I've never seen a car before.

1659
01:32:14,240 --> 01:32:16,000
Speaker 3: Doesn't know it's a dog?

1660
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:22,120
Speaker 6: Maybe maybe no animals in this, nobody's never seen another person.

1661
01:32:24,040 --> 01:32:26,960
Speaker 3: Maybe I'll just look at everything straight on, you know,

1662
01:32:27,520 --> 01:32:29,679
Speaker 3: And and this, honestly, that's a kind of a cool

1663
01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:29,920
Speaker 3: you know.

1664
01:32:30,320 --> 01:32:32,639
Speaker 8: Another comic strip that I love growing up was Life

1665
01:32:32,680 --> 01:32:34,639
Speaker 8: and Hell by Matt Greening, right where it's like literally

1666
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:37,759
Speaker 8: every single so you know, I wrote this this uh,

1667
01:32:38,040 --> 01:32:41,200
Speaker 8: this strip called Pretend Interviews, which was a comic of

1668
01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:44,280
Speaker 8: a cartoon strip, a cartoon of a radio show, of

1669
01:32:44,400 --> 01:32:47,400
Speaker 8: a fictional radio show of me interviewing dead people. And

1670
01:32:47,479 --> 01:32:49,639
Speaker 8: I did it Life and hellstyle, where every single panel

1671
01:32:49,680 --> 01:32:51,880
Speaker 8: was exactly the same as a sitting.

1672
01:32:52,920 --> 01:32:54,120
Speaker 4: Just literally copy and paste.

1673
01:32:54,200 --> 01:32:56,240
Speaker 8: So anyway, unless you're doing your own art, and even

1674
01:32:56,280 --> 01:32:59,000
Speaker 8: if you are, the part of the challenge of writing

1675
01:32:59,040 --> 01:33:03,200
Speaker 8: your first script is is recognizing that kind of translational

1676
01:33:03,240 --> 01:33:05,519
Speaker 8: work that Rosie was talking about, which is like, how

1677
01:33:05,560 --> 01:33:08,360
Speaker 8: do I say this in a way that somebody else

1678
01:33:08,439 --> 01:33:10,040
Speaker 8: is going to be able to draw it and in

1679
01:33:10,080 --> 01:33:12,360
Speaker 8: a way that's compelling. You know, how do I do

1680
01:33:12,400 --> 01:33:15,000
Speaker 8: that succinctly? How how do I give them enough and

1681
01:33:15,040 --> 01:33:18,479
Speaker 8: not too much? And the first time you're writing a

1682
01:33:18,479 --> 01:33:21,760
Speaker 8: script and you haven't seen how it turns to art, Uh,

1683
01:33:21,800 --> 01:33:23,880
Speaker 8: that's hard to do, right, And so it ceases to

1684
01:33:23,880 --> 01:33:25,480
Speaker 8: be kind of an intellectual exercise.

1685
01:33:25,880 --> 01:33:26,080
Speaker 4: I was.

1686
01:33:26,120 --> 01:33:27,880
Speaker 8: I was helping a friend of mine who's who's writing

1687
01:33:27,920 --> 01:33:29,519
Speaker 8: his first comic script, and he sent it to me,

1688
01:33:29,600 --> 01:33:31,559
Speaker 8: and you know, I sent him a gentle reminder that

1689
01:33:31,600 --> 01:33:34,479
Speaker 8: I also had to receive, which is that in comics,

1690
01:33:34,520 --> 01:33:35,960
Speaker 8: people can only do one thing at a time.

1691
01:33:36,120 --> 01:33:38,519
Speaker 4: Yes, right, so you can't come.

1692
01:33:38,560 --> 01:33:42,360
Speaker 3: Through a door into another room and then something.

1693
01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:45,360
Speaker 4: Walked in and picked her mug of t and high

1694
01:33:45,439 --> 01:33:46,200
Speaker 4: five Jason.

1695
01:33:46,479 --> 01:33:46,759
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1696
01:33:46,840 --> 01:33:47,360
Speaker 4: Wow, that's the.

1697
01:33:47,360 --> 01:33:52,040
Speaker 8: Whole thing, Like you decide, And that's different. I think

1698
01:33:52,080 --> 01:33:54,280
Speaker 8: also a lot of folks were familiar with like screenwriting

1699
01:33:54,360 --> 01:33:58,479
Speaker 8: or to people move like DV. Human beings can move

1700
01:33:58,479 --> 01:34:01,080
Speaker 8: around in three dimensions, and so so that's kind of

1701
01:34:01,120 --> 01:34:03,880
Speaker 8: like to me, honestly, what I still really relish at

1702
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:06,640
Speaker 8: a craft level, it's like, what is the what is

1703
01:34:06,680 --> 01:34:07,320
Speaker 8: the gestaltz.

1704
01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:10,800
Speaker 4: What is the essence of what like this this rosy moment?

1705
01:34:10,880 --> 01:34:11,040
Speaker 3: Right?

1706
01:34:11,120 --> 01:34:12,960
Speaker 8: Is it most important that she SIPs her tea? Is

1707
01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:14,920
Speaker 8: it most important that she pets the cat? Is it

1708
01:34:14,960 --> 01:34:17,400
Speaker 8: most like what am I actually trying to get across?

1709
01:34:18,439 --> 01:34:21,599
Speaker 8: And I kind of love that, Like I love thinking

1710
01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:27,360
Speaker 8: about how you reduce moments of immense emotion and human

1711
01:34:27,360 --> 01:34:29,920
Speaker 8: interaction to like a single thing. I'm also really a

1712
01:34:29,960 --> 01:34:33,360
Speaker 8: big fan of like it's pretty boring when people are

1713
01:34:33,360 --> 01:34:36,040
Speaker 8: just talking to each other, like standing there talking, And

1714
01:34:36,080 --> 01:34:40,439
Speaker 8: so I'm also a big fan of the subtextual visual

1715
01:34:40,760 --> 01:34:43,599
Speaker 8: like substory that that I script out, but that doesn't

1716
01:34:43,640 --> 01:34:47,479
Speaker 8: involve dialogue, right, And so you know, like there's this

1717
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:53,679
Speaker 8: an issue seven, Issue seven of Iron Hurt, Nadia van Dyne,

1718
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:56,760
Speaker 8: the Wasp comes to visit Rerea in her lab and

1719
01:34:56,880 --> 01:35:00,280
Speaker 8: she's re reshowing her around and.

1720
01:35:00,040 --> 01:35:01,519
Speaker 4: And the subtexe.

1721
01:35:01,640 --> 01:35:03,640
Speaker 8: So like, as she's showing her around the lab, to me,

1722
01:35:03,760 --> 01:35:05,800
Speaker 8: this is an opportunity to show a lot of things

1723
01:35:05,840 --> 01:35:07,760
Speaker 8: about Rerea. So one of the things she'd like a

1724
01:35:07,800 --> 01:35:10,200
Speaker 8: recurring thing in Ironheart is that every time re reopens

1725
01:35:10,240 --> 01:35:13,000
Speaker 8: a fridge, it's only full of orange pop. And so

1726
01:35:13,080 --> 01:35:16,759
Speaker 8: like she only that's all she drinks, and.

1727
01:35:17,080 --> 01:35:18,920
Speaker 4: That's like a that's a character moment, right.

1728
01:35:19,560 --> 01:35:23,200
Speaker 8: The things, the ways that people interact with each other nonverbally,

1729
01:35:23,680 --> 01:35:26,120
Speaker 8: the things that you see on somebody's desk, the way

1730
01:35:26,160 --> 01:35:28,560
Speaker 8: that they dress, right, Like, all of those are opportunities

1731
01:35:28,600 --> 01:35:29,960
Speaker 8: to build a character as well.

1732
01:35:30,400 --> 01:35:32,839
Speaker 4: And I love scripting that type of stuff.

1733
01:35:32,880 --> 01:35:35,479
Speaker 8: And it's it's kind of the backdrop so that like,

1734
01:35:35,720 --> 01:35:37,879
Speaker 8: because you know, I do want to write like emotionally

1735
01:35:37,920 --> 01:35:40,280
Speaker 8: laid in work, and so if people are sitting and

1736
01:35:40,320 --> 01:35:42,400
Speaker 8: having a deep discussion, like what are the other things

1737
01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:45,280
Speaker 8: that they can be doing? You know in Rosie's you know,

1738
01:35:45,680 --> 01:35:50,360
Speaker 8: uh comic, the food the food preparation scene, right, yeah,

1739
01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:52,920
Speaker 8: the Miyazaki nod of like somebody making food in the

1740
01:35:52,960 --> 01:35:54,280
Speaker 8: background while they're having a conversation.

1741
01:35:54,360 --> 01:35:55,200
Speaker 4: I love that type of thing.

1742
01:35:55,680 --> 01:35:58,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. For me, I think one of the biggest.

1743
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:02,200
Speaker 1: Lessons I need to learn in my own writing was

1744
01:36:02,520 --> 01:36:06,280
Speaker 1: my own tendency to uh love my characters and want

1745
01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:08,240
Speaker 1: to protect them too much. You know, you always hear,

1746
01:36:08,400 --> 01:36:10,880
Speaker 1: oh love all your characters, even even the bad, even

1747
01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:12,720
Speaker 1: the villains. You know, you have to empathize with you

1748
01:36:13,160 --> 01:36:15,800
Speaker 1: And so my the way that that manifested in my

1749
01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:18,639
Speaker 1: own work was that I don't want anything to.

1750
01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:20,840
Speaker 2: Happen to them. I want you to just be protected,

1751
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:26,479
Speaker 2: just like, yeah, you know, and and what what you know?

1752
01:36:26,520 --> 01:36:29,040
Speaker 2: How does that translated translate to nothing happens? It's boring.

1753
01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:32,880
Speaker 1: Were there anyone like that for you, where you're like, oh, god,

1754
01:36:33,040 --> 01:36:36,040
Speaker 1: I I have to I have to be mean to

1755
01:36:36,160 --> 01:36:38,439
Speaker 1: this creation that I love a little bit.

1756
01:36:38,479 --> 01:36:41,280
Speaker 2: I have to be willing to be mean to them. Yeah.

1757
01:36:41,360 --> 01:36:42,719
Speaker 4: Oh, that's such a good question.

1758
01:36:42,960 --> 01:36:45,519
Speaker 8: So, first of all, my dream in life is to

1759
01:36:46,280 --> 01:36:49,080
Speaker 8: have the cachet as a creator to produce work in

1760
01:36:49,080 --> 01:36:50,400
Speaker 8: which truly nothing happens.

1761
01:36:50,520 --> 01:36:53,360
Speaker 3: A dream that's the ultimate dream dreams.

1762
01:36:53,680 --> 01:36:58,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, I'm a big I'm a Miyazaki stand and

1763
01:36:58,360 --> 01:37:01,360
Speaker 8: so like you know, I love of Miyazaki films in

1764
01:37:01,400 --> 01:37:02,720
Speaker 8: which like, truly.

1765
01:37:02,439 --> 01:37:03,680
Speaker 4: Not a lot happens.

1766
01:37:04,160 --> 01:37:07,519
Speaker 8: You know, there's there's the there's the polar opposite, which

1767
01:37:07,560 --> 01:37:09,479
Speaker 8: is the Miyazaki film in which like seven hundred things

1768
01:37:09,479 --> 01:37:13,160
Speaker 8: happened that you don't really understand me. You know, I've

1769
01:37:13,160 --> 01:37:16,120
Speaker 8: seen Princess Mononoke, like, you know, infinite times. I think

1770
01:37:16,160 --> 01:37:17,559
Speaker 8: the last time I saw it, I was like, cool,

1771
01:37:17,560 --> 01:37:20,240
Speaker 8: I think I'm up to a strong seventy five percent

1772
01:37:20,280 --> 01:37:21,120
Speaker 8: of understanding what.

1773
01:37:21,280 --> 01:37:21,800
Speaker 2: Is going on.

1774
01:37:23,240 --> 01:37:25,360
Speaker 8: But the episode of that is where it's just like, yeah,

1775
01:37:25,439 --> 01:37:28,040
Speaker 8: you know, like you like Kiki, she worked at a bakery,

1776
01:37:28,320 --> 01:37:30,400
Speaker 8: and then like there was a rare you know, like

1777
01:37:30,520 --> 01:37:34,360
Speaker 8: very minimal content. I aspire, I aspire, but until I

1778
01:37:34,360 --> 01:37:37,120
Speaker 8: get to that point, I think, you know, I got

1779
01:37:37,120 --> 01:37:39,640
Speaker 8: in a one of the few times I've had like

1780
01:37:39,720 --> 01:37:43,320
Speaker 8: a minor, respectful disagreement with somebody on the creative side,

1781
01:37:43,479 --> 01:37:48,760
Speaker 8: and Marvel Comics was the this person who was not

1782
01:37:48,800 --> 01:37:51,160
Speaker 8: an editor, who was a you know, kind of higher

1783
01:37:51,200 --> 01:37:56,080
Speaker 8: up person, uh, really wanting me to kill some characters.

1784
01:37:56,120 --> 01:37:59,519
Speaker 8: And you know, I was kind of like, what are

1785
01:37:59,560 --> 01:38:04,120
Speaker 8: the other ways that we can have stakes?

1786
01:38:04,400 --> 01:38:04,599
Speaker 2: Right?

1787
01:38:04,680 --> 01:38:07,320
Speaker 8: And so it's true, you can't just have nothing happening,

1788
01:38:07,600 --> 01:38:09,559
Speaker 8: But I think that some of our assumptions about what

1789
01:38:09,640 --> 01:38:13,280
Speaker 8: constitutes stakes are sometimes wrong, right, And so the question

1790
01:38:13,400 --> 01:38:16,640
Speaker 8: is like, what are the you know, to quote she Hulk, like,

1791
01:38:16,640 --> 01:38:19,439
Speaker 8: those aren't mistakes, right, Like, what are the stakes that

1792
01:38:19,479 --> 01:38:22,320
Speaker 8: matter for that character? And I think for somebody, you know,

1793
01:38:22,360 --> 01:38:24,800
Speaker 8: for somebody like re Rea just you know, since we're

1794
01:38:24,800 --> 01:38:25,519
Speaker 8: talking about.

1795
01:38:25,280 --> 01:38:28,440
Speaker 4: Her, the stakes of.

1796
01:38:28,240 --> 01:38:31,120
Speaker 8: Like getting into a fight are not always the highest stakes,

1797
01:38:31,200 --> 01:38:33,840
Speaker 8: right for her, the journey that I wanted to take

1798
01:38:33,880 --> 01:38:36,080
Speaker 8: her on in that solo title is really like very

1799
01:38:36,080 --> 01:38:42,280
Speaker 8: emotional and so like being wrong, exploring your own inner

1800
01:38:42,800 --> 01:38:46,200
Speaker 8: foolishness that you haven't really dealt with, being nice to

1801
01:38:46,240 --> 01:38:50,320
Speaker 8: other people, listening to other people, taking advice, asking for help, right, Like,

1802
01:38:50,560 --> 01:38:54,000
Speaker 8: those things are also really big moments for some characters.

1803
01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:55,960
Speaker 8: And so the question is how do you take the

1804
01:38:56,000 --> 01:38:59,000
Speaker 8: audience or the reader on a journey where they're bought

1805
01:38:59,040 --> 01:39:00,080
Speaker 8: in the body?

1806
01:39:00,240 --> 01:39:01,920
Speaker 4: You know, I don't know if you guys watched The Bear?

1807
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:02,599
Speaker 4: Did you watch The Bear?

1808
01:39:02,680 --> 01:39:05,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a huge, huge.

1809
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:09,479
Speaker 3: Ten incredible. I spent a lot of my time before

1810
01:39:09,520 --> 01:39:12,840
Speaker 3: I moved to America working in bars and restaurants, so

1811
01:39:12,880 --> 01:39:15,439
Speaker 3: it was like, I was like this the representation I

1812
01:39:15,439 --> 01:39:18,559
Speaker 3: wanted was like, it's ship to work and recapture that

1813
01:39:18,760 --> 01:39:24,640
Speaker 3: it captured that frenetic there's an emergency, there is another emergency.

1814
01:39:24,880 --> 01:39:28,560
Speaker 1: Now there's another emergency, and people need to get fed also.

1815
01:39:28,840 --> 01:39:30,559
Speaker 8: And it's a little I think it's a little triggering

1816
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:32,479
Speaker 8: for people who've worked in the restaurant industry. You know,

1817
01:39:32,560 --> 01:39:34,599
Speaker 8: it's like, but but you know, one of my favorites,

1818
01:39:34,600 --> 01:39:36,480
Speaker 8: so folks should watch. I think it's just an amazingly

1819
01:39:36,520 --> 01:39:38,120
Speaker 8: written piece of media. I also think it's one of

1820
01:39:38,120 --> 01:39:40,439
Speaker 8: the best things to take place in Chicago, like ever written.

1821
01:39:40,439 --> 01:39:41,080
Speaker 4: It's really good.

1822
01:39:41,400 --> 01:39:43,599
Speaker 8: But you know, I think one of my favorite scenes

1823
01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:46,280
Speaker 8: is like the scene of these two characters Sidney and

1824
01:39:46,320 --> 01:39:48,720
Speaker 8: Marcus at the end right towards the end of the

1825
01:39:48,880 --> 01:39:51,240
Speaker 8: first season. This is not like a major spoiler, but

1826
01:39:52,120 --> 01:39:54,759
Speaker 8: you know, Sidney has basically just like done the George

1827
01:39:54,760 --> 01:39:57,160
Speaker 8: Costanz equivalent of like sitting in the slushy machine, like

1828
01:39:57,160 --> 01:39:59,120
Speaker 8: like when you have an epic quit, like an epic

1829
01:39:59,200 --> 01:40:02,160
Speaker 8: quitting when you're like I quit on this in this

1830
01:40:02,320 --> 01:40:06,120
Speaker 8: like amazing like burn every bridgeway and this tension of

1831
01:40:06,160 --> 01:40:07,280
Speaker 8: like is she gonna go back?

1832
01:40:07,280 --> 01:40:08,960
Speaker 4: Like can she go back to the restaurant? Right?

1833
01:40:09,240 --> 01:40:11,320
Speaker 8: And to me, when I think about that show, which

1834
01:40:11,360 --> 01:40:14,760
Speaker 8: is so wildly frenetic and stressful, like, to me, that's

1835
01:40:14,760 --> 01:40:17,880
Speaker 8: one of the highest stakes moments of the season is

1836
01:40:18,120 --> 01:40:19,880
Speaker 8: because all of us have felt that thing where like

1837
01:40:20,439 --> 01:40:22,360
Speaker 8: we we went out with a bang, and then we

1838
01:40:22,400 --> 01:40:24,639
Speaker 8: look back and we're like, yo, I was kind of wrong,

1839
01:40:26,880 --> 01:40:31,280
Speaker 8: Like I honestly was like maybe really wrong and really

1840
01:40:31,360 --> 01:40:34,880
Speaker 8: and like am I gonna go back and tell people like, yo,

1841
01:40:35,000 --> 01:40:38,280
Speaker 8: I was wrong and try to salvage that. That's so cringey.

1842
01:40:38,400 --> 01:40:41,479
Speaker 8: It's like so uncomfortable to even talk about. So yeah,

1843
01:40:41,520 --> 01:40:43,880
Speaker 8: I think that the question of like, you know, kill

1844
01:40:43,920 --> 01:40:48,080
Speaker 8: your darlings like sometimes that's that's not literally murdering right now.

1845
01:40:48,280 --> 01:40:48,479
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1846
01:40:48,520 --> 01:40:51,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, And you know, Sali Nama said this to me.

1847
01:40:51,360 --> 01:40:53,400
Speaker 8: He was like, at this point, you know, people dying

1848
01:40:53,400 --> 01:40:55,040
Speaker 8: in comics is also like not that high.

1849
01:40:55,240 --> 01:40:56,160
Speaker 2: I was gonna say that.

1850
01:40:57,200 --> 01:41:01,400
Speaker 3: Like everybody comes back, so big a challenges to find

1851
01:41:01,520 --> 01:41:03,719
Speaker 3: stakes the feel real.

1852
01:41:04,080 --> 01:41:04,559
Speaker 4: George R.

1853
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:07,559
Speaker 8: Martin is like, comic stopped being good. When people stop being.

1854
01:41:09,479 --> 01:41:12,160
Speaker 3: He's still like he's feared of Uncle Ben coming back

1855
01:41:12,240 --> 01:41:14,560
Speaker 3: that will be the true most people.

1856
01:41:14,280 --> 01:41:16,160
Speaker 4: And make them dead. He's like, just kill them and

1857
01:41:16,200 --> 01:41:16,760
Speaker 4: let them be dead.

1858
01:41:16,800 --> 01:41:19,160
Speaker 3: Come on, bro come on broh. I mean that's the

1859
01:41:19,360 --> 01:41:24,559
Speaker 3: ultimate comic book conundrum. So I think that's quite yeah,

1860
01:41:24,680 --> 01:41:27,519
Speaker 3: quite ironic that that was a note, you know, the

1861
01:41:27,560 --> 01:41:29,160
Speaker 3: idea that you had to kill people for it to

1862
01:41:29,160 --> 01:41:31,720
Speaker 3: be real. I'm like, oh, they'll be back, they'll be back,

1863
01:41:32,800 --> 01:41:36,120
Speaker 3: They'll be right. And then kind of like what was

1864
01:41:36,160 --> 01:41:39,920
Speaker 3: it like for you to go from this space of

1865
01:41:40,040 --> 01:41:44,400
Speaker 3: seeing getting to know really as a writer, but also

1866
01:41:44,720 --> 01:41:47,120
Speaker 3: as a comic book fan and in this art space

1867
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:50,759
Speaker 3: to then you know, this is one of the quickest,

1868
01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:55,000
Speaker 3: if not the quickest transitions of being introduced in twenty sixteen,

1869
01:41:55,360 --> 01:41:59,800
Speaker 3: getting a solo series twenty eighteen, being in the MCUI

1870
01:42:00,120 --> 01:42:01,720
Speaker 3: she appears.

1871
01:42:02,520 --> 01:42:04,680
Speaker 2: It's amazing, It's amazing.

1872
01:42:04,840 --> 01:42:08,040
Speaker 3: So how does it feel then to not just be

1873
01:42:08,200 --> 01:42:11,640
Speaker 3: creating her Storians seeing it on the page, but to

1874
01:42:11,800 --> 01:42:14,360
Speaker 3: then go to the premiere to see it on the

1875
01:42:14,400 --> 01:42:17,479
Speaker 3: screen and to see Dominique Tholn just absolutely smash it.

1876
01:42:18,160 --> 01:42:20,000
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, Well, first of all, is this a spoiler?

1877
01:42:20,160 --> 01:42:21,439
Speaker 8: Is a spoiler friendly situation?

1878
01:42:21,680 --> 01:42:21,840
Speaker 4: Right?

1879
01:42:21,880 --> 01:42:24,200
Speaker 3: Yeh yeah, yeah, this is a spoiler note?

1880
01:42:24,479 --> 01:42:25,920
Speaker 4: Okay, cool? Cool? Yeah.

1881
01:42:26,040 --> 01:42:28,400
Speaker 8: I mean so, first of all, on a practical level,

1882
01:42:29,200 --> 01:42:31,680
Speaker 8: I've spent the last four years of my life perfecting

1883
01:42:31,760 --> 01:42:35,400
Speaker 8: the uh who is Ironheartshpiel for that I have to

1884
01:42:35,439 --> 01:42:38,160
Speaker 8: give to people, which now has morphed into the who

1885
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:42,000
Speaker 8: is Monica Rambo?

1886
01:42:44,000 --> 01:42:45,160
Speaker 4: And you know, just like to.

1887
01:42:45,120 --> 01:42:47,040
Speaker 8: Tell people, you know, tell people in thirty seconds before

1888
01:42:47,080 --> 01:42:49,799
Speaker 8: their eyes glaze over, you know, like this is a character.

1889
01:42:50,120 --> 01:42:52,519
Speaker 8: Brian Michael Bendis Miles Morales.

1890
01:42:52,560 --> 01:42:55,720
Speaker 2: You probably Brian.

1891
01:42:55,680 --> 01:42:56,320
Speaker 4: It's that guy.

1892
01:42:56,479 --> 01:42:58,880
Speaker 8: Okay, so iron Man, you know who that is and

1893
01:42:59,439 --> 01:43:01,640
Speaker 8: the protoce, but then not the same and at that

1894
01:43:01,680 --> 01:43:05,120
Speaker 8: point the person is like walked away. And so what

1895
01:43:05,160 --> 01:43:07,200
Speaker 8: I'm really excited about is just like being able to

1896
01:43:07,240 --> 01:43:08,800
Speaker 8: say iron Heart to people and then being like cool,

1897
01:43:08,840 --> 01:43:14,240
Speaker 8: I know that is without like this long drawn out explanation. Also,

1898
01:43:14,360 --> 01:43:16,519
Speaker 8: usually at the end of that explanation, somebody turns to

1899
01:43:16,560 --> 01:43:18,000
Speaker 8: their friend and they're like, yeah, this is eve she

1900
01:43:18,040 --> 01:43:19,280
Speaker 8: wrote iron Man in the movies.

1901
01:43:19,320 --> 01:43:21,919
Speaker 4: I'm like, no, that's not that's not how it happened.

1902
01:43:23,080 --> 01:43:27,320
Speaker 8: And comics literacy is still like very low in our society.

1903
01:43:27,400 --> 01:43:29,559
Speaker 8: So yeah, that also keeps me humble. One of my

1904
01:43:29,560 --> 01:43:31,720
Speaker 8: best friends when I when I started writing iron Heart,

1905
01:43:31,800 --> 01:43:34,880
Speaker 8: she said to me, this is a person, brilliant, person, amazed,

1906
01:43:34,880 --> 01:43:37,160
Speaker 8: she has a PhD, you know, like amazing person.

1907
01:43:37,680 --> 01:43:38,240
Speaker 4: Well read.

1908
01:43:38,400 --> 01:43:42,240
Speaker 8: She's like, she's like, I was unaware that they were

1909
01:43:42,320 --> 01:43:46,479
Speaker 8: still making new superheroes. Yeah, She's like, you were like,

1910
01:43:46,760 --> 01:43:49,760
Speaker 8: She's like, you know, I thought, like, there's Batman, there's

1911
01:43:49,800 --> 01:43:52,559
Speaker 8: Spider Man, and I thought, like, you know, they're like

1912
01:43:52,600 --> 01:43:55,160
Speaker 8: she thought it was like a canonical like decision we

1913
01:43:55,240 --> 01:43:58,280
Speaker 8: have and we're just to you know, I'm like, first,

1914
01:43:58,400 --> 01:44:01,000
Speaker 8: you know, we have new Pokemon, Like there's like things

1915
01:44:01,040 --> 01:44:03,320
Speaker 8: don't anything that has IP that's not like you know,

1916
01:44:03,320 --> 01:44:07,200
Speaker 8: we just have so so honestly, like just the I

1917
01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:09,600
Speaker 8: love this character so much and she's very real to

1918
01:44:09,640 --> 01:44:12,760
Speaker 8: me in a probably weird way, and so yeah, like

1919
01:44:12,920 --> 01:44:16,120
Speaker 8: just to know that she's gonna be visible to so

1920
01:44:16,160 --> 01:44:20,920
Speaker 8: many other people is really exciting and frankly completely unreal

1921
01:44:20,960 --> 01:44:23,720
Speaker 8: for me. And then honestly being at the premiere, Like,

1922
01:44:23,760 --> 01:44:26,280
Speaker 8: first of all, it was my first Hollywood premiere, and

1923
01:44:26,360 --> 01:44:28,920
Speaker 8: so it was just like surreal in a number of ways.

1924
01:44:29,800 --> 01:44:33,200
Speaker 4: Rihanna sat rows behind us, wow.

1925
01:44:33,400 --> 01:44:35,519
Speaker 8: Like like directly behind those so that I could not

1926
01:44:35,600 --> 01:44:39,280
Speaker 8: see her unless I turned my entire body, and throughout

1927
01:44:39,280 --> 01:44:42,559
Speaker 8: the whole time, my husband was like Rihanna's eating popcorn,

1928
01:44:42,600 --> 01:44:49,320
Speaker 8: like he was like all of Rihanna's activities. To me,

1929
01:44:49,360 --> 01:44:52,679
Speaker 8: I was like, okay, thank you, but yeah, I thought

1930
01:44:52,800 --> 01:44:55,240
Speaker 8: I'm a big crier and I thought I was going

1931
01:44:55,320 --> 01:44:58,160
Speaker 8: to cry a lot when she first appeared on screen,

1932
01:44:58,640 --> 01:45:02,120
Speaker 8: and instead I was like, like so filled with the

1933
01:45:02,120 --> 01:45:05,160
Speaker 8: most unspeakable joy that I can't even describe to you.

1934
01:45:05,280 --> 01:45:05,960
Speaker 4: I was so.

1935
01:45:06,760 --> 01:45:12,640
Speaker 8: Happy and I sat behind right behind Reginald Hudlin, you

1936
01:45:12,640 --> 01:45:15,280
Speaker 8: know who for folks who don't know, is both Hollywood

1937
01:45:15,320 --> 01:45:18,000
Speaker 8: like Black Film Icon and made like House Party and Boomerang,

1938
01:45:18,200 --> 01:45:20,479
Speaker 8: but also had a pretty good run on Black Panther

1939
01:45:20,520 --> 01:45:25,639
Speaker 8: and the two comics Writer and And when Reary first

1940
01:45:25,680 --> 01:45:28,879
Speaker 8: appeared on screen, he turned around, uh and and grabbed

1941
01:45:28,920 --> 01:45:30,000
Speaker 8: my hand and he goes.

1942
01:45:29,880 --> 01:45:39,280
Speaker 7: Oh, He's like, that's what the fuck I'm talking about.

1943
01:45:36,479 --> 01:45:40,240
Speaker 2: Like totally long. And I was like, yeah, I love

1944
01:45:40,320 --> 01:45:42,040
Speaker 2: that and cool, Yeah.

1945
01:45:43,120 --> 01:45:46,439
Speaker 4: That was very cool. And and and Bendis was there

1946
01:45:46,520 --> 01:45:47,200
Speaker 4: in the same row.

1947
01:45:47,240 --> 01:45:49,920
Speaker 8: And the other thing I'll share is that, like, I

1948
01:45:50,000 --> 01:45:52,320
Speaker 8: think this is okay to say, like he he was

1949
01:45:52,360 --> 01:45:54,120
Speaker 8: sitting in front and like a little to the left

1950
01:45:54,160 --> 01:45:56,200
Speaker 8: of me, and and before the and we'd actually never

1951
01:45:56,200 --> 01:45:57,040
Speaker 8: met in person before.

1952
01:45:57,080 --> 01:45:58,280
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

1953
01:45:58,600 --> 01:46:00,839
Speaker 8: And so you know, I went over and I introduced

1954
01:46:00,840 --> 01:46:04,720
Speaker 8: myself to him, and he he shook my hand and

1955
01:46:04,720 --> 01:46:09,040
Speaker 8: he said, you're the reason we're all here. And that

1956
01:46:09,160 --> 01:46:12,720
Speaker 8: was like very I think, very just very moving and

1957
01:46:12,840 --> 01:46:16,080
Speaker 8: very generous. And you know, I think for him to

1958
01:46:16,080 --> 01:46:18,080
Speaker 8: be able to say that, yeah, it was just it

1959
01:46:18,160 --> 01:46:21,160
Speaker 8: was it was really kind. And I think that part

1960
01:46:21,200 --> 01:46:24,400
Speaker 8: of the fun and wild thing is like none of

1961
01:46:24,479 --> 01:46:27,479
Speaker 8: us own these characters, right, Like the that's the other

1962
01:46:27,520 --> 01:46:29,880
Speaker 8: thing where people don't understand, like I'm not making.

1963
01:46:29,680 --> 01:46:38,840
Speaker 4: Like your character making dollars. Yeah, I do not on

1964
01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:39,640
Speaker 4: this ip, you know.

1965
01:46:40,520 --> 01:46:43,400
Speaker 8: But so I think part of the like beauty, the

1966
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:47,000
Speaker 8: hard part and the beautiful part is like you have

1967
01:46:47,120 --> 01:46:47,439
Speaker 8: a turn.

1968
01:46:47,479 --> 01:46:48,200
Speaker 4: You get to take your.

1969
01:46:48,120 --> 01:46:51,400
Speaker 8: Turn, right, Like you know, Brian invented something and made

1970
01:46:51,479 --> 01:46:52,960
Speaker 8: something and then I got.

1971
01:46:52,840 --> 01:46:55,120
Speaker 4: To take my turn and that was really really special.

1972
01:46:56,080 --> 01:46:59,439
Speaker 8: And then you know, Coogler and Dominique are taking their turn,

1973
01:46:59,520 --> 01:47:02,639
Speaker 8: and the Disney Plus series comes Shanakahad, who's an amazing

1974
01:47:02,720 --> 01:47:05,560
Speaker 8: writer who I actually who was also a poet, so

1975
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:07,640
Speaker 8: who I actually knew prior to her taking on.

1976
01:47:08,479 --> 01:47:10,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's great, like poets are out here doing stuff.

1977
01:47:11,640 --> 01:47:14,120
Speaker 8: Yeah, Like everybody gets to take their turn, you know,

1978
01:47:14,240 --> 01:47:16,320
Speaker 8: And I think that that's I think that's hard for

1979
01:47:16,439 --> 01:47:20,280
Speaker 8: some people. But it's really really cool too. It's really

1980
01:47:20,360 --> 01:47:24,360
Speaker 8: cool to see where people take something. And I'm I'm

1981
01:47:24,439 --> 01:47:26,960
Speaker 8: lucky enough that I am a consultant on the on

1982
01:47:27,080 --> 01:47:30,519
Speaker 8: the TV show and so you know that means like

1983
01:47:31,040 --> 01:47:32,599
Speaker 8: I made a lot of notes and they can take

1984
01:47:32,640 --> 01:47:36,280
Speaker 8: it or leave it. But something that Kelly Studiconic said

1985
01:47:36,280 --> 01:47:38,880
Speaker 8: to me, is like, for us as comics writers, when

1986
01:47:38,920 --> 01:47:41,680
Speaker 8: we see the stuff on screen, our job is not

1987
01:47:41,840 --> 01:47:45,719
Speaker 8: to litigate every kind of like biographical detail of the character,

1988
01:47:45,880 --> 01:47:47,680
Speaker 8: but to do our best to try to protect the

1989
01:47:47,760 --> 01:47:48,880
Speaker 8: core of who the character is.

1990
01:47:50,600 --> 01:47:53,519
Speaker 4: And that's what I you know, that's what I'm hoping

1991
01:47:53,600 --> 01:47:54,280
Speaker 4: to be able to do.

1992
01:47:54,680 --> 01:47:57,840
Speaker 8: And I like, if I had, you know, if somebody

1993
01:47:57,880 --> 01:48:00,120
Speaker 8: had told all of us fifteen years ago, there's to

1994
01:48:00,160 --> 01:48:02,640
Speaker 8: be a Spider Man movie and yeah, this Spider Man

1995
01:48:02,680 --> 01:48:06,320
Speaker 8: has no uncle Ben, right, we would be like what boo, right,

1996
01:48:06,439 --> 01:48:09,600
Speaker 8: Like that's yeah, But it turns out like that's not

1997
01:48:09,920 --> 01:48:12,280
Speaker 8: what makes him Spider Man, right as it turns out

1998
01:48:12,400 --> 01:48:14,920
Speaker 8: like we we would never have known that unless somebody

1999
01:48:14,960 --> 01:48:17,599
Speaker 8: made that choice on screen. So anyway, now I'm rambling,

2000
01:48:17,680 --> 01:48:20,040
Speaker 8: but yeah, it's been it's been wild. And Dominique is

2001
01:48:20,080 --> 01:48:23,599
Speaker 8: a is a star and I really want every amazing

2002
01:48:23,640 --> 01:48:26,640
Speaker 8: thing for her. She's incredible and I hope people love

2003
01:48:26,720 --> 01:48:27,559
Speaker 8: seeing her on screen.

2004
01:48:30,080 --> 01:48:31,040
Speaker 2: Do you you mentioned that?

2005
01:48:32,000 --> 01:48:34,960
Speaker 1: Uh, the the ownership aspect, like the fact that these

2006
01:48:35,000 --> 01:48:38,799
Speaker 1: are characters who come into your custody for a period

2007
01:48:38,840 --> 01:48:41,960
Speaker 1: of time. What's that like to be part of this broader,

2008
01:48:42,240 --> 01:48:47,200
Speaker 1: larger conversation, you know, almost like this huge wall in

2009
01:48:47,280 --> 01:48:49,519
Speaker 1: a public space that you get to write something on

2010
01:48:49,600 --> 01:48:50,680
Speaker 1: and then walk away from.

2011
01:48:50,760 --> 01:48:52,439
Speaker 2: And there, Yeah, I always hear people.

2012
01:48:52,280 --> 01:48:56,600
Speaker 1: Get up and yeah, I wonder, you know, just you know, philosophically,

2013
01:48:56,720 --> 01:48:58,479
Speaker 1: what does that what does that feel like? And what

2014
01:48:58,560 --> 01:49:00,880
Speaker 1: do you and what role do you think that plays

2015
01:49:00,920 --> 01:49:04,240
Speaker 1: in this kind of like broader, vast conversation that is

2016
01:49:04,400 --> 01:49:06,360
Speaker 1: now you know the MCU.

2017
01:49:07,320 --> 01:49:09,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think there's a cynical read on that, and

2018
01:49:09,920 --> 01:49:12,200
Speaker 8: there's like an idealistic read on it. And depending on

2019
01:49:12,520 --> 01:49:14,680
Speaker 8: the day that you catch me, I have I have

2020
01:49:14,840 --> 01:49:19,280
Speaker 8: felt both poor and everything in between. You know, I'm

2021
01:49:19,280 --> 01:49:21,400
Speaker 8: an idealist again, you know, I wrote I wrote Marvel

2022
01:49:21,439 --> 01:49:25,280
Speaker 8: Team Up, which is a mini series featuring Kamala and Peter,

2023
01:49:26,680 --> 01:49:29,400
Speaker 8: and I went with the classic. It's a three issue

2024
01:49:29,400 --> 01:49:32,000
Speaker 8: mini series, so I was like, bet body swap right,

2025
01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:37,960
Speaker 8: Kamala becomes Peter, Peter becomes Kamala. Don't think about it

2026
01:49:38,040 --> 01:49:42,760
Speaker 8: too hard, just let's just let's go. That Also, by

2027
01:49:42,800 --> 01:49:44,280
Speaker 8: the way, was one of the few moments where I've

2028
01:49:44,280 --> 01:49:47,320
Speaker 8: also had a back and forth with editorial because uh,

2029
01:49:47,479 --> 01:49:51,640
Speaker 8: there's a scene where Peter Peter's and Kamala's body and

2030
01:49:51,680 --> 01:49:54,840
Speaker 8: he's at school and uh, he thinks he has she

2031
01:49:54,840 --> 01:49:57,360
Speaker 8: has this big presentation and she's like, don't ruin this

2032
01:49:57,439 --> 01:49:59,519
Speaker 8: for me, and he's like, yo, I'm like a scientist,

2033
01:49:59,560 --> 01:50:01,839
Speaker 8: like I'm in a kill your high school bio presentation,

2034
01:50:01,960 --> 01:50:04,280
Speaker 8: Like don't even worry about it. And he gets to

2035
01:50:04,400 --> 01:50:06,720
Speaker 8: class and immediately is like, oh my god, I'm dying.

2036
01:50:06,800 --> 01:50:09,880
Speaker 8: Something horrible is happening to me, Like I'm being this

2037
01:50:09,960 --> 01:50:13,000
Speaker 8: is like biological warfare, and she has to be taken

2038
01:50:13,040 --> 01:50:15,400
Speaker 8: out of class. And then later on there's a scene

2039
01:50:15,439 --> 01:50:17,680
Speaker 8: of them sitting, you know, looking over the city and

2040
01:50:17,760 --> 01:50:19,800
Speaker 8: she's like, you had a cramp, Like those are that's

2041
01:50:20,040 --> 01:50:22,400
Speaker 8: that's cramps right like, and he's like I thought I

2042
01:50:22,479 --> 01:50:25,720
Speaker 8: was gonna die, right So so that was that was

2043
01:50:25,760 --> 01:50:29,240
Speaker 8: a moment where the word the word cramp was cannot appear,

2044
01:50:29,840 --> 01:50:31,200
Speaker 8: so we can we can unpack that later.

2045
01:50:31,280 --> 01:50:36,920
Speaker 4: But anyway, so yeah, classic, so but yeah.

2046
01:50:36,760 --> 01:50:39,760
Speaker 8: So when I was writing that series, literally I would

2047
01:50:39,800 --> 01:50:41,880
Speaker 8: I would wake up, I'd brush my teeth, I'd look

2048
01:50:41,920 --> 01:50:45,639
Speaker 8: in the mirror, and I would be like, I write words,

2049
01:50:46,240 --> 01:50:50,439
Speaker 8: and Spider Man says those like it's just like the

2050
01:50:50,520 --> 01:50:53,160
Speaker 8: basic fact of that, like, you know, I would go

2051
01:50:53,240 --> 01:50:55,120
Speaker 8: in the kitchen and grab my husband and be like, honey,

2052
01:50:55,840 --> 01:50:58,760
Speaker 8: I say the words and then they come out of

2053
01:50:58,840 --> 01:51:01,880
Speaker 8: Spider Man's mouth like I am the I have I

2054
01:51:01,960 --> 01:51:04,320
Speaker 8: am the person who has the power to be the

2055
01:51:04,400 --> 01:51:07,599
Speaker 8: vector of Spider Man, and that like like Spider Man

2056
01:51:07,840 --> 01:51:11,760
Speaker 8: like maybe the most recognizable iconic pop culture figure like

2057
01:51:12,040 --> 01:51:16,160
Speaker 8: possibly ever, you know, and so like on on moments

2058
01:51:16,160 --> 01:51:19,280
Speaker 8: when I feel idealistic about it, that's really magical. And

2059
01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:23,400
Speaker 8: and also I think being part of the community of creators,

2060
01:51:23,760 --> 01:51:25,679
Speaker 8: you know, to have to have phone calls with people,

2061
01:51:25,880 --> 01:51:30,880
Speaker 8: you know, when when Danny Lord took over Champions, like

2062
01:51:30,920 --> 01:51:33,559
Speaker 8: having those conversations with Danny, right, having conversations with Vita,

2063
01:51:33,920 --> 01:51:38,840
Speaker 8: having conversations with SOLIDI, you know, amazing, you know, like Okay,

2064
01:51:38,880 --> 01:51:39,519
Speaker 8: what are you doing.

2065
01:51:39,400 --> 01:51:40,040
Speaker 4: With Miles here?

2066
01:51:40,120 --> 01:51:42,800
Speaker 8: What are we doing in Champions you know Evan or

2067
01:51:43,000 --> 01:51:45,800
Speaker 8: like any any folks where we're crossing over things. It's

2068
01:51:45,880 --> 01:51:47,519
Speaker 8: really fun to be like, all right, what are you

2069
01:51:47,560 --> 01:51:49,479
Speaker 8: doing in your sandbox? And how can I make sure

2070
01:51:49,520 --> 01:51:51,000
Speaker 8: this matches up to my sandbox?

2071
01:51:51,520 --> 01:51:51,680
Speaker 3: You know.

2072
01:51:51,760 --> 01:51:52,679
Speaker 4: The cynical read.

2073
01:51:52,560 --> 01:51:56,040
Speaker 8: Of it is like, uh, it's a super bazillion Defolfilion,

2074
01:51:56,080 --> 01:52:00,280
Speaker 8: Dy Dollar Mega Corporation. Yeah, uh that you know, I

2075
01:52:00,600 --> 01:52:06,040
Speaker 8: produce really good work sometimes and and that, yeah that

2076
01:52:06,200 --> 01:52:11,040
Speaker 8: creators have no uh, not only compensation financially, but like

2077
01:52:11,479 --> 01:52:14,439
Speaker 8: even just like acknowledgment, right, giving a little fuzzy sometimes,

2078
01:52:14,960 --> 01:52:16,840
Speaker 8: and you know, you all have talked a lot about it,

2079
01:52:16,920 --> 01:52:19,280
Speaker 8: and folks can google the horror stories of just like

2080
01:52:20,000 --> 01:52:23,760
Speaker 8: I've definitely had the experience of sitting in a you know,

2081
01:52:23,880 --> 01:52:26,639
Speaker 8: not not with Black Panther, but with other Marvel stuff,

2082
01:52:26,720 --> 01:52:28,840
Speaker 8: Like sitting in a theater watching a movie that I

2083
01:52:28,920 --> 01:52:31,120
Speaker 8: know is going to make a bazillion d dollars.

2084
01:52:30,880 --> 01:52:33,680
Speaker 4: And being like that is that my was that a

2085
01:52:33,760 --> 01:52:36,840
Speaker 4: thing from my brand? And that's a bad feeling, you know,

2086
01:52:36,880 --> 01:52:37,639
Speaker 4: it's a bad feeling.

2087
01:52:38,560 --> 01:52:40,599
Speaker 8: It's also a bad feeling I think with the way

2088
01:52:40,680 --> 01:52:42,519
Speaker 8: some of the TV stuff has panned out. I think

2089
01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:45,320
Speaker 8: for some of the writers in that room, right, the

2090
01:52:45,439 --> 01:52:47,880
Speaker 8: ways that the writer's room on the TV shows are

2091
01:52:48,160 --> 01:52:50,680
Speaker 8: are very different from traditional writers rooms, and some of

2092
01:52:50,800 --> 01:52:54,040
Speaker 8: the hierarchy of power and control and decision making is

2093
01:52:54,080 --> 01:52:55,760
Speaker 8: really different, and I think that's been a struggle for

2094
01:52:56,120 --> 01:52:59,560
Speaker 8: some folks. So, you know, I think that the like

2095
01:52:59,720 --> 01:53:02,599
Speaker 8: I try to maintain a healthy reality somewhere in the middle.

2096
01:53:02,760 --> 01:53:04,760
Speaker 8: And you know, maybe one day I'll just go full

2097
01:53:04,800 --> 01:53:05,720
Speaker 8: Alan Moore and just.

2098
01:53:07,640 --> 01:53:08,080
Speaker 3: Expire.

2099
01:53:08,360 --> 01:53:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's fine.

2100
01:53:10,080 --> 01:53:12,200
Speaker 8: You know, maybe maybe I'll get there, but for now,

2101
01:53:12,240 --> 01:53:14,360
Speaker 8: it's still fun. And I also, to be honest with you,

2102
01:53:14,800 --> 01:53:16,640
Speaker 8: I have a huge privilege of like, I have a

2103
01:53:16,720 --> 01:53:19,479
Speaker 8: regular day job. I'm a professor at a university.

2104
01:53:19,640 --> 01:53:19,760
Speaker 4: Right.

2105
01:53:20,080 --> 01:53:23,000
Speaker 8: I had a whole other writing career before comics, and

2106
01:53:23,040 --> 01:53:25,200
Speaker 8: I have a whole other writing career outside of comics.

2107
01:53:25,520 --> 01:53:27,719
Speaker 8: And that's also an immense privilege that makes it easy

2108
01:53:27,800 --> 01:53:29,880
Speaker 8: for me to be like, Okay, cool, I'm doing this

2109
01:53:30,040 --> 01:53:32,400
Speaker 8: and not that, or I don't feel comfortable with this,

2110
01:53:32,479 --> 01:53:33,760
Speaker 8: or I feel achy about it, so I'm going to

2111
01:53:33,800 --> 01:53:34,280
Speaker 8: step away.

2112
01:53:34,680 --> 01:53:36,439
Speaker 4: And a lot of folks in this industry don't have that,

2113
01:53:36,680 --> 01:53:36,840
Speaker 4: you know.

2114
01:53:37,520 --> 01:53:39,840
Speaker 8: And and so that's why the creator own space and

2115
01:53:40,280 --> 01:53:42,160
Speaker 8: you know, Kickstarter projects and all that kind of stuff

2116
01:53:42,200 --> 01:53:42,879
Speaker 8: is really important.

2117
01:53:42,920 --> 01:53:45,200
Speaker 4: And I hope that for folks. If you go and

2118
01:53:45,280 --> 01:53:46,920
Speaker 4: you read a big two comic by.

2119
01:53:46,920 --> 01:53:50,400
Speaker 8: A writer and artist that you absolutely love, like look

2120
01:53:50,479 --> 01:53:53,120
Speaker 8: them up and sign up for their newsletter and follow

2121
01:53:53,160 --> 01:53:56,400
Speaker 8: them on their socials and you know, pledge their Kickstarter thing.

2122
01:53:56,479 --> 01:53:59,200
Speaker 8: And buy their creator own thing because that's it's called

2123
01:53:59,280 --> 01:54:01,200
Speaker 8: creator own because that's what it is, right Like, that's

2124
01:54:01,240 --> 01:54:04,000
Speaker 8: the thing that they actually control and can can make

2125
01:54:04,080 --> 01:54:07,519
Speaker 8: money off of. So yeah, I think it's it's it's tough,

2126
01:54:07,560 --> 01:54:11,360
Speaker 8: and I think it's important to not be so idealistic

2127
01:54:11,400 --> 01:54:12,760
Speaker 8: about it, to not be honest.

2128
01:54:12,680 --> 01:54:15,040
Speaker 3: That yeah, I think and I think you really summed

2129
01:54:15,120 --> 01:54:18,200
Speaker 3: up the two most intrinsic things about making like what

2130
01:54:18,320 --> 01:54:21,040
Speaker 3: we call work for higher comics, which is, yeah, we

2131
01:54:21,520 --> 01:54:23,639
Speaker 3: want to tell the best story and you put everything

2132
01:54:23,680 --> 01:54:27,840
Speaker 3: into it, and the companies know that you have that

2133
01:54:28,000 --> 01:54:32,520
Speaker 3: excitement of right Spider or you know, writing Godzilla something

2134
01:54:32,720 --> 01:54:35,760
Speaker 3: that you love like, and they are aware that you

2135
01:54:35,840 --> 01:54:38,440
Speaker 3: will say, Okay, I'm going to sign away any ownership

2136
01:54:38,520 --> 01:54:40,160
Speaker 3: of this because I would love to do it.

2137
01:54:40,280 --> 01:54:40,560
Speaker 4: It's it.

2138
01:54:40,760 --> 01:54:41,280
Speaker 2: That's the.

2139
01:54:43,320 --> 01:54:46,800
Speaker 3: Historically, that is the exchange that has been made between

2140
01:54:46,840 --> 01:54:49,640
Speaker 3: the two, and I live every day to hopefully try

2141
01:54:49,680 --> 01:54:53,400
Speaker 3: and make that change or evolve from the way.

2142
01:54:53,320 --> 01:54:53,720
Speaker 4: That it was.

2143
01:54:53,840 --> 01:54:56,560
Speaker 3: There was a time in superho comics where that was

2144
01:54:56,720 --> 01:55:02,160
Speaker 3: not the base level. That was something that came around

2145
01:55:02,320 --> 01:55:05,240
Speaker 3: relatively recently in like the seventies when that sort of

2146
01:55:05,280 --> 01:55:07,280
Speaker 3: became a thing. So yeah, I think you summed out.

2147
01:55:07,360 --> 01:55:10,280
Speaker 3: But it's it's that really interesting thing because you know,

2148
01:55:10,360 --> 01:55:12,520
Speaker 3: I'm like, I won't come mix to union eyes. We

2149
01:55:12,640 --> 01:55:14,960
Speaker 3: told all the time about creative rights, but I'm also like, yeah,

2150
01:55:15,040 --> 01:55:16,800
Speaker 3: we'll write a fucking X Men book.

2151
01:55:17,000 --> 01:55:20,800
Speaker 2: Like I'll do it, like I I will do it, right.

2152
01:55:21,040 --> 01:55:25,320
Speaker 3: I will literally write the softball X Men mini series

2153
01:55:25,480 --> 01:55:27,440
Speaker 3: like high to me and I and then I'll write

2154
01:55:27,440 --> 01:55:29,240
Speaker 3: something into the book about unions or something.

2155
01:55:29,480 --> 01:55:30,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, right, But.

2156
01:55:30,720 --> 01:55:32,600
Speaker 8: How the softball team is actually just a metaphor for

2157
01:55:32,640 --> 01:55:36,000
Speaker 8: the union, Yeah, exactly, No, it's totally it's totally real.

2158
01:55:36,080 --> 01:55:39,080
Speaker 8: And I think, like, you know, to a certain extent,

2159
01:55:39,280 --> 01:55:41,600
Speaker 8: I mean, I'm comfortable saying publicly like this is the

2160
01:55:41,720 --> 01:55:43,600
Speaker 8: least financially lucrative thing I could.

2161
01:55:43,440 --> 01:55:47,160
Speaker 4: Be doing time, Like I pretty much pretty much do

2162
01:55:47,240 --> 01:55:47,640
Speaker 4: it for fun.

2163
01:55:48,480 --> 01:55:50,880
Speaker 8: And but not only that, I mean, like, you know,

2164
01:55:51,560 --> 01:55:54,600
Speaker 8: the impact, the cultural impact that you get to have

2165
01:55:54,960 --> 01:55:56,000
Speaker 8: is just really tremendous.

2166
01:55:56,280 --> 01:55:58,400
Speaker 4: And I think that it's for me.

2167
01:55:58,520 --> 01:56:02,040
Speaker 8: It's just important to understand what my values are and

2168
01:56:02,200 --> 01:56:05,000
Speaker 8: what I want to do. And you know, I've I've

2169
01:56:05,080 --> 01:56:08,640
Speaker 8: said no to a bunch of Marvel stuff because I

2170
01:56:08,800 --> 01:56:10,880
Speaker 8: wasn't excited about it or I wanted somebody else to

2171
01:56:10,920 --> 01:56:13,120
Speaker 8: get an opportunity or you know. And I think the

2172
01:56:13,240 --> 01:56:16,480
Speaker 8: main thing is like just just recognizing that the thing,

2173
01:56:16,920 --> 01:56:19,440
Speaker 8: the thing being inherently exciting or a big honor doesn't

2174
01:56:19,440 --> 01:56:21,760
Speaker 8: mean it's exciting or a big honor for you, yeah, right,

2175
01:56:21,840 --> 01:56:24,000
Speaker 8: and doesn't mean it's always a good move for you

2176
01:56:24,240 --> 01:56:26,840
Speaker 8: and for your time, calculus and for your you know,

2177
01:56:27,240 --> 01:56:29,360
Speaker 8: way you want to make your money. And I think

2178
01:56:29,440 --> 01:56:31,840
Speaker 8: that that's yeah, like not letting the kind of glitz

2179
01:56:31,880 --> 01:56:34,480
Speaker 8: and glamour of the name recognition get you in a

2180
01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:37,800
Speaker 8: spot where you're like making stuff that you're not getting

2181
01:56:37,800 --> 01:56:39,240
Speaker 8: paid in a way that makes sense for your life.

2182
01:56:39,800 --> 01:56:40,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2183
01:56:40,840 --> 01:56:43,920
Speaker 1: Someone recently told me the creatively there's a huge power

2184
01:56:43,960 --> 01:56:45,400
Speaker 1: and no, and that is the truth.

2185
01:56:46,920 --> 01:56:48,720
Speaker 2: It's best even anything to plug.

2186
01:56:48,960 --> 01:56:50,720
Speaker 8: Yes, I would like to plug a couple of things

2187
01:56:51,160 --> 01:56:56,200
Speaker 8: coming December. Photon Monica Rambo Photon number one, featuring an

2188
01:56:56,240 --> 01:56:59,080
Speaker 8: amazing black woman. If you don't know Monica Rambo, get

2189
01:56:59,160 --> 01:57:02,760
Speaker 8: to know her. She's incredible. Used to be the leader

2190
01:57:02,760 --> 01:57:05,320
Speaker 8: of the Avengers. Now she's trying to figure out her life.

2191
01:57:05,960 --> 01:57:07,960
Speaker 8: I've been telling people, if you are like an old

2192
01:57:08,000 --> 01:57:10,800
Speaker 8: school Marvel fan or if you are a person who

2193
01:57:11,640 --> 01:57:13,720
Speaker 8: feels like you're that underappreciated person in your life, but

2194
01:57:13,760 --> 01:57:15,440
Speaker 8: you've never read a comic book before, like, this is

2195
01:57:15,480 --> 01:57:18,400
Speaker 8: a comic that you will relate to. It's about trying

2196
01:57:18,400 --> 01:57:22,080
Speaker 8: to figure yourself out and it's really great. And then

2197
01:57:22,360 --> 01:57:25,520
Speaker 8: coming March twenty twenty three, my first ever graphic novel

2198
01:57:26,120 --> 01:57:28,560
Speaker 8: called Change the Game, which I co wrote with Colin Kaepernick,

2199
01:57:29,160 --> 01:57:33,200
Speaker 8: and it is coming out on Scholastic in March twenty

2200
01:57:33,360 --> 01:57:33,920
Speaker 8: twenty three.

2201
01:57:34,160 --> 01:57:36,960
Speaker 4: And for the young adult or the young adult at

2202
01:57:37,000 --> 01:57:38,320
Speaker 4: heart in your life.

2203
01:57:38,520 --> 01:57:42,080
Speaker 2: Eve, please come back. This has been way Yeah.

2204
01:57:42,720 --> 01:57:45,839
Speaker 8: Yeah, Conte Corner is allmine.

2205
01:57:45,880 --> 01:57:47,280
Speaker 4: I really appreciate you all so much.

2206
01:57:49,480 --> 01:57:52,520
Speaker 1: Big thanks to Evel Ewing for appearing on the program,

2207
01:57:53,560 --> 01:57:56,000
Speaker 1: and of course the big thanks to Rosie Night for

2208
01:57:56,120 --> 01:57:57,960
Speaker 1: closing the Rosie plugs.

2209
01:57:58,000 --> 01:58:00,360
Speaker 2: Plugs, plugs, plugs, plug plugs. What do you you have

2210
01:58:00,840 --> 01:58:01,240
Speaker 2: to plug?

2211
01:58:01,960 --> 01:58:06,120
Speaker 3: You can find me Rosie marks on Instagram and letterbox

2212
01:58:06,720 --> 01:58:09,320
Speaker 3: where I'm starting to budge into Christmas movies, so come

2213
01:58:09,400 --> 01:58:12,880
Speaker 3: and judge me. Yeah, I watched so many bad Christmas movies,

2214
01:58:12,960 --> 01:58:16,120
Speaker 3: like I'm talking about Harvark, Lifetime, everything. They're all there

2215
01:58:16,160 --> 01:58:19,400
Speaker 3: and I make them in lists if you like hearing

2216
01:58:19,440 --> 01:58:21,680
Speaker 3: about Rievey Williams, I have a piece up at Polygon

2217
01:58:21,920 --> 01:58:25,200
Speaker 3: that's the kind of explainer, in depth explainer about that

2218
01:58:25,760 --> 01:58:27,880
Speaker 3: and just other cool things coming up. You can check

2219
01:58:27,920 --> 01:58:30,640
Speaker 3: me writing about TV and stuff at IGN and Nerdict,

2220
01:58:31,240 --> 01:58:33,280
Speaker 3: and you can also read my comics. I have a

2221
01:58:33,320 --> 01:58:36,480
Speaker 3: website Rosiolivia Night dot com because I haven't bothered to

2222
01:58:36,840 --> 01:58:40,080
Speaker 3: change my URL yet it's my proper name. But there

2223
01:58:40,120 --> 01:58:42,440
Speaker 3: you can read some free comics. You can read all

2224
01:58:42,520 --> 01:58:46,400
Speaker 3: of my thousands of articles that's not hyperbolic. And yeah,

2225
01:58:46,520 --> 01:58:47,800
Speaker 3: and then obviously here.

2226
01:58:50,560 --> 01:58:53,320
Speaker 1: Catch the next episode on November eighteenth, and of course

2227
01:58:53,360 --> 01:58:56,760
Speaker 1: subscribe to the show on YouTube, follow at XRV pod

2228
01:58:57,280 --> 01:58:59,680
Speaker 1: on Twitter. Maybe not for much longer on Twitter, we'll

2229
01:58:59,680 --> 01:59:02,840
Speaker 1: see that it's about somewhere else. But check out the

2230
01:59:02,920 --> 01:59:06,400
Speaker 1: discord to meet and hang out with the other X

2231
01:59:06,480 --> 01:59:08,720
Speaker 1: ray Vision fans, and of course Rosie and I were

2232
01:59:08,760 --> 01:59:10,640
Speaker 1: active on there, and we'd love to interact with you.

2233
01:59:11,760 --> 01:59:14,720
Speaker 1: Five star ratings. We love them, we gotta have them,

2234
01:59:14,840 --> 01:59:19,400
Speaker 1: we need them. Here's one from the dot Potato, the

2235
01:59:19,520 --> 01:59:22,320
Speaker 1: nerd podcast we need. If there are nerd happenings, I

2236
01:59:22,400 --> 01:59:23,960
Speaker 1: know I can count on Jason to Rosie to not

2237
01:59:24,080 --> 01:59:26,800
Speaker 1: only cover it, but direct me to more resources. I've

2238
01:59:26,800 --> 01:59:28,920
Speaker 1: picked up comics, books and shows that I wouldn't have

2239
01:59:29,000 --> 01:59:30,800
Speaker 1: sought out otherwise, and I know it all to Extray Vision.

2240
01:59:30,840 --> 01:59:32,680
Speaker 1: Plus they've got the best podcast theme song out there,

2241
01:59:32,720 --> 01:59:33,200
Speaker 1: hands down.

2242
01:59:33,120 --> 01:59:34,360
Speaker 2: No contest. Thank you.

2243
01:59:34,480 --> 01:59:37,400
Speaker 1: The Peto x ray Vision is a Crooked Media production.

2244
01:59:37,440 --> 01:59:39,240
Speaker 1: The show is produced by Chris Lord and Solve Rubin.

2245
01:59:39,240 --> 01:59:42,040
Speaker 1: The show is executive produced by myself and Sandy Arhard

2246
01:59:42,040 --> 01:59:43,040
Speaker 1: are editing in sound design.

2247
01:59:43,040 --> 01:59:45,080
Speaker 2: Who's by Vacillius Photopoulos.

2248
01:59:44,840 --> 01:59:48,360
Speaker 1: Dylon Villanueva and Matt de Group provide video production support.

2249
01:59:48,480 --> 01:59:51,520
Speaker 1: Alex Reller for Handle Social Media. Thank you, Brian Vasquez

2250
01:59:51,560 --> 01:59:52,320
Speaker 1: for theme music.

2251
01:59:52,760 --> 01:59:54,080
Speaker 4: That's It for Us by