WEBVTT - Fake Meat, Real Food 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.360 Hey, Dana, So alternative protein or fake meat? Have we 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:06.760 tried it? Yes? And how was it? It was great? 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:11.039 I've had beyond burgers, impossible burgers. I even had some 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:14.960 delightful sausages that weren't actually sausages just earlier this week. 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.320 I am what you would call a flexitarian, so somebody 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.119 who generally avoids meat but will still buy it and 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:23.759 eat it from time to time. I once went a 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:26.000 whole year without any red meat at all, and I 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:27.920 must say the thing that I missed the most that 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:31.520 year was a hamburger. So when I started seeing fake 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.160 burgers showing up on menus and at the grocery store, 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:36.640 and I'm not talking about a veggie patty but something 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:41.400 that actually resembles a hamburger, I was pretty excited about it. So, yeah, 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:43.879 I take it you like these they cut the mustard 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:49.479 no pun intended. Okay, So years ago, my then girlfriend, 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:51.599 no wife, and I would go to this vegetarian restaurant, 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.080 a Sunflower in Vienna, Virginia. If you know it, you 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.800 know it's fantastic place. But it always struck me as 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.279 odd the attempts at replicating meat with like things like 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:01.880 satan and like I thought it really wasn't worth the effort. 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:04.160 I still don't, certainly not good enough to be worth 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:06.840 the effort. But I've tried the impossible burgher and all that, 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:08.520 and it seems fake meat has really come a long 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:10.600 way since then. And that's what we're here to talk 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:14.880 about today, This alternative to animal protein, be that poultry, fish, beef, 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:17.400 or pork, and what it means to be fake meat, 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:20.080 whether made of plants or actual animal tissues growing in 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.400 the lab. So today we speak with Hume Bromley, who 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:24.360 looks at consumer trends here at B A E F, 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:26.399 and he's going to talk to us about a report 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:29.800 titled Alternative Proteins Fake It Till You Make It. The 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:32.920 full report is available on the Bloomberg terminal, at BENF 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:36.120 dot com or on BNF's mobile app. And as always, 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:38.959 BENF does not provide investment or strategy advice, and you 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:41.440 can hear a full disclaimer which will play at the 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.160 end of today's show. Now, let's hear about alternative proteins. 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:48.160 I'm Dana Perkins and I'm Mark Taylor, and you're listening 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:56.160 to Switch on the BENF podcast. Hi, Hi, thanks for 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:58.480 coming on the show today. Yeah, thanks having to be back. 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.200 So the title of the no that we're talking about today, 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:03.320 it's about, well, we're going to call it fake meat, 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.880 but alternative proteins fake it till you make it. So 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:10.360 I want to know how fake is it. I have 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:14.400 a friend who actually refers to these, um, these alternative 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.120 hamburger patties that they actually have in the United States 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.040 is frank and food. So does it resemble the real 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:22.799 food that we interact with or is it something that 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.240 I wouldn't even recognize due to the processing. Look, I've 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:27.920 had to try a bunch of things through you know 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:31.160 what you call market research. I guess for this this report, right, 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:33.680 and you know it's all it's all subjective, it's all 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.560 going to be individual opinion. But I mean, I think 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:39.320 the best ones I have tried that the best companies 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:41.120 that faking meat and the best ones are cooking it 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:45.200 afterwards probably do the same job as really poor quality beef. 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:47.480 Right now. You know, they might get better over time, 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:50.920 but no, certainly, no one's doing that I've tried has 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.919 done a great job of replicating, you know, a great hamburger. 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.680 And and no one's anywhere clotis on on replicating a 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:01.160 steak or anything like that. But what are they actually 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:03.400 made of, Like, what's it comprised of? Most of the 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:05.520 stuff out there on the supermarket shells, but at the 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.639 moment are are plant based, right, So they'll typically use 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:13.320 either a soy protein or a yellow p protein. So 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:16.680 basically you're growing that crop, you're extracting the protein from it, 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:21.200 you're basically running it through a big macerator and eventually 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.520 extruding it's mixing it with other ingredients and extruding it 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:28.760 like you would pasta or cereal into a form factor. 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.320 We recognize, you know, something that looks like like ground beef, 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:34.800 or if you've turned into a paddy, it might kind 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.240 of look like you can squint, you know, a chicken 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:38.880 fill it. I was just to get back when I 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.360 used to go to vegetarian restaurant and they would have 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:43.600 fake meat back in the day, made out of like 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.080 satan and stuff like that. I don't know, it was 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:49.400 just not good. My conclusion back then was, you know what, 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:52.720 let's get it. Just give me the veg. I'm good. Look, 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:54.920 I don't I don't disagree that there's new products out 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.520 there for decades, right at least or MILLENNIU if you 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.560 count things like tofu. There's been an alternative as protein, 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.200 alternatives to animal meats out there for for people that 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:05.839 don't need it. What's different about this, what's different about 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.000 plant based meeting the culture, the lab growing meats that 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:10.760 are coming, is that they're not trying to offer a 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:13.520 new product of vegetarians and vegans. Really they want to 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.480 win over the omnivores or at least the flexitarians, but 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:18.680 but ideally the omnivores or other people who eat meat. 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:21.600 It's got to look, taste, feel, smell just like meat 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.359 to do that, because otherwise, you know myself and you 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.560 will have that response. Just give me a vegetable, give 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:29.200 me meat, don't try and trick me. I mean, this 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:31.880 was fifteen years ago too, and you know, I'm sure 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:35.520 technology has approved. I've had a what beyond burger or whatever, 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.279 and I thought it was good, it was great. I'm 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:40.479 really excited for this actually to happen. I would call 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.040 myself one of the flexitarians or I haven't even heard 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:45.080 that word, but I'd say that's what I am. You 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.720 are at the target market, I think I am. Actually yeah, definitely, 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:50.200 you and me both so This is a bit of 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.240 a departure for benf Why did we actually choose to 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.880 write about alternative proteins. It's a good question, but being 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:56.840 has been involving for a long time now right where 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:59.039 we're no longer just a clean energy research firmly moved 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:03.919 into transport industry decoganization, and I guess the common narrative 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:07.560 here is that we have these century old industries and 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:11.200 supply chains that are being threatened and disrupted by by 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.640 new incumbents, and those new incumbents are enabled by technology, 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.320 you know, whether that be falling prices of solar panels 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.479 or or or electric vehicles, or whether in this case 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:23.000 it's you know, the potential cost reductions of making plant 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:25.839 based or lab grown meats that will disrupt you know, 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.960 some of the biggest trading commodities of the planet meat. 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:30.880 And the only thing that leads that's come with all 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.520 of them is is massive emission reduction potential if this happens, 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.640 and if the company's offering plant based meat and cultured meats, 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.680 get it right, So you mentioned just now cultured meat, 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.520 and actually the very beginning of December, I saw an 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:47.279 announcement that Singapore approved the very first lab growing meat 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.080 to be sold for regular people like you and meat 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:53.480 to consume it. So my question is about that, how 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:55.719 is it made and what are some of the concerns 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:59.360 around the lab grown and cultured meat that have made 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:01.360 it kind of lead us to the market. That hasn't 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:02.920 been on the shelves for fifteen years, it's been on 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:05.680 the shelves for maybe fifteen days. It's really interesting stuff 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:07.719 and exciting stuff that we finally have a product on 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.160 the market of coming to market soon in Singapore. Lab 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.880 grown meats, cultured meats, clean meats are sometimes called very 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:16.279 different plant based. So you haven't tried this stuff before. 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.680 It's only been tasted in kind of experimental settings. And 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.160 what it is is basically, it's it's real meats. It's 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.520 just grown inside inside an incubator inside a machine. So 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.080 it's where you're basically extracting animal cells from a live 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.520 animal from from a from a placenter, growing in a 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.640 machine by feeding it this kind of concoction of kind 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:39.120 of what you call food culture and basically exercising that 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.599 inside this machine to make it grow like muscle would 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.880 grow muscle and that tissue and then when that's you know, 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.760 whether that's finished growing inside this machine and you're you're 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:50.159 scraping it out and you know, and using it like 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:52.800 you would ground beef. Eventually, maybe down the track you 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.840 could even grow up an entire fiel it inside. So 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:57.720 you know, it's it's a it's a process that they're 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:01.279 basically lifted from medical science. Not that uncommon at all, 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:05.400 but clearly very costly um and clearly new for the 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.760 food industry. The development Singapore is a company called it 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:12.320 Eat Just. They're certainly at the forefront of of the industry. 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:14.800 They're working across a whole bunch of different animals. The 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:17.800 development in Singapore looks to just apply the chicken right now, 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.120 but it's it's the first step in bringing these products 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:24.320 to market. So when people are talking about potentially growing organs, 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:28.360 this is a similar technology they're using to grow the 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:31.200 meat that will go on our plates. Yeah, very similar. Obviously, 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:35.720 you've got different cells, different culture every animal you grow, 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.200 and it requires a different environment, so different different temperature, 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:43.000 different culture. Obviously different cells that you're extracting, and different 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:46.080 timelines as well. But that it's it's just the same 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:48.800 as what you're seeing in some of those some of 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:53.200 those therapeutic or generative medicine practices. This feels very futuristic 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.280 to me. It does, look at it is futuristic. It 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:58.400 comes with that futuristic price tag as well. You know 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:00.720 that the original burghers that were being process this way, 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:04.200 we're costing something like a hundred thousand dollars a burger. Supposedly, 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.320 there's certainly companies out there that's you know, you're still 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.720 paying kind of hundredfold of premium of what you would 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.120 for for animal meats. But there are companies out there, 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:15.920 but certainly hope to bring that down to something that's 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:18.720 you know, more more like tenfold in the next few years. 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.920 Really costly. No reason why those costs couldn't come down. 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.440 Not you know that there's many reasons to beleeve the 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:26.920 costs should come down, just like we kind of I 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.440 said before, you know, very similar to solar panels or 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:31.560 batteries and e v s. You know, you've got this 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:35.280 cost curve, You've got a process that's infinitely scalable. You 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:37.440 just need to make more of these incubators, you know, 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.200 put more cells inside machines and you get more and 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:42.600 more product. A lot of the costs at the moment 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.240 comes from the culture. So you have specialized firms are 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:48.840 basically brewing up this culture to feed your your cell 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.400 lines and grow the meat that would need to come down. 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.319 But it's got to have a learning rate behind it. 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.200 It's way too early to even put a number on 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:58.800 what that learning rate might be right now, but you know, 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.679 it's it's a very scale, little repeatable process that that 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:03.920 that that that should come down. And you contrast that 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.800 to a very inefficient sector putting animals out to pasture 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:10.600 for for months or or years at a time to 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:13.320 grow meat, you know, and and wasting the male metabolic 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.640 cycle to work to grow an animal that then butcher 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:19.319 it to then waste a decent chunk of the carcass. 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.280 There is a whole lot of old waste there that 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:26.319 that can be undercut by a futuristic, mechanical, automated process. 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:28.640 How is it going to be rolled out in these 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.079 first adopters in Singapore? You know, is it going to 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.200 be high end restaurants with people waiting out the door 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:35.400 to get a shot at this, or is it going 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.400 to be you know, through more I guess fast food 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.319 chains or places that'll sell this. Look. I imagine in 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:44.559 Paul with this cultured chicken, it's got to be high end. 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:47.720 There is this disconnect between costs and price. When it 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:50.680 comes to plant based meat, yes, it's price that are premium, 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:52.719 but cost you could argue should be the same or 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.360 lower than animal meat. When it comes to cultured meat, 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.199 it's costly and its pricey, and it's probably going to 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:00.720 stay that way for a while. So that there's the barrier. 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.480 They're kind of trying to find enough people willing to 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.000 sample it at that cost, and then you know, where 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:08.600 do you grow from there? Every country you go into 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:12.480 after Singapore you need to jump, you know, really strict 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.199 and high regulatory hurdles. You know, in the US we're 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:17.480 going through that process right now. And because it's a 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:21.280 meat product but also an agricultural product, you're basically regulated 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.520 twice by the FDA, the Food and Drug Administration, and 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:26.720 by the U S d A, the U. S. Department 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.240 of Agriculture, so all of which already have processes in 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.960 place for regulating livestock, for regulating meat and butchering, and 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.439 for regulating basically all food supply chains. And you've got 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:39.680 to meet all those existing hurdles, even though your product 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.520 might look and behave very differently. So that's specifically in 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:44.600 the United States. How about an other parts of the world. 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.400 Does the FDA have the most stringent standards and therefore 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.320 they translate over to other countries or you know, I've 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:52.560 had a beyond Burger here in London's I mean, there 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.199 definitely is an equivalent here in the UK. What's the 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.560 view on these products in other parts of the world. Well, 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:00.719 I think you see these companies kind of pushing for 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:04.280 some sort of consistency amongst different regions and how they regulators, 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:06.440 But it is an entirely different process right now. If 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:07.920 you want to go into the EU, you need to 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:09.840 go through the regulator. If you want to go the US, 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:12.280 you go through the USD, usd A and f d A. 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:15.400 They're pushing for consistency, but at the same time, they 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:18.640 really want to protect their their secret source, protect their processes, 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.200 protect protect their recipes, so they can't be open book 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:24.800 with their competitors. The push for industry stands across the 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:26.959 world because they're trying to be market leaders at the 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.000 same time. Now, for a very short break, stay with us, 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:36.720 so let's talk about adoption of alternative proteins. Both kinds 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.520 the plant based and then maybe someday the cultured meat 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:42.760 coming to a plate near you. In this research note, 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:45.080 you talked a lot about the United States, and my 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.160 question also has to do with whether or not that 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.040 is the primary market for these products at this point 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.120 in time and where the real growth is coming from, 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:54.760 because what immediately comes to my mind is, you know, 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.840 the consumer preferences in Asia, for example, are really gravitating 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:04.360 increasingly towards animal proteins and meats with raising GDPs and well, 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:06.520 I mean the maybe taste are changing as well. Can 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.280 you give us some color on that. There's a couple 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:11.240 of questions in there, right, But first of all, where 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.440 where's this stuff being trial today? Who's eating it? If 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:16.400 you look at the leaders companies like Beyond Meat or 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:20.760 Impossible Foods and where they're actively marketing and selling their products, 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:24.360 it is certainly biased towards the Western hemisphere. They target 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:28.480 North America, US and Canada a target primary markets, certainly 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.480 the European Union UK in the preferences are changing there, 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.320 there's healthy decisions being made. And in some other places 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:36.920 like like like Australias on their radar as well, you 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.240 do see a lot of announcements coming out of Asia. 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:43.079 Sometimes it's the same firms moving into Asia. A landmark 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.400 deal with Starbucks recently struck in China. But you also 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:48.800 see a lot of local firms as well, local startups 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.480 getting traction in places like Japan and career in China. 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:55.079 In Singapore, we've seen these firms pop up. And these 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:57.600 are countries they're the more, but I guess the more 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.080 they're the wealthier Asian countries. It's still with changing consumer 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.160 preferences and servicing the greater Asia market. With with growing 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.880 meat appetite. The challenge there I think will be one 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.640 the meat attachment levels and outside of China and the 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:14.640 countries Malaysia, Singapore, meat attachments or not all that high 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.120 meat consumption the past has not been all that great. 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:19.200 And what you see when you look at kind of 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:23.280 meat consumption over decades and generations as an economy comes 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.480 with wealthier certainly the rate of meat intake, the annual 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:29.840 the per capita intake of meat increases. But if you 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.320 start from a very low base, you don't catch up 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:34.680 to the US, you don't catch up to Western Europe. 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:37.000 You just grow from your lower base. You start at 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:38.600 a high base, you know now I'm thinking kind of 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.160 Latin America, maybe you will catch up to the US 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:43.760 on a per capita basis, but they're small, population small, 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:49.240 but populations with growing wealth. So really the opportunity is 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:52.800 huge my population perspective in those countries. But chances are 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:54.880 they one don't have the meat attachment because they haven't 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:57.520 had as much meat in their diets historically. As their 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.240 meat appetite grows, it's just not going to be the 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:02.360 same level as what you see in kind of in 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:04.320 the West. I mean this has a lot to do 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:06.959 with cultural factors. When you say meat attachment, I mean 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.120 it has to do with like the recipes that somebody knows, Right, 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.400 So if I'm going to make something for dinner, I'm 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:14.120 going to go to a recipe that maybe my mom 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.120 taught me, and that may not necessarily involve animal protein. 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:19.560 Are there other things that come into play here that 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.480 maybe I don't know about. There's certainly trends happening in meat. 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:24.800 Let's let's put plant based on cultured meat aside for 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:26.720 a moment, But just the big trends happening and meat 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:31.000 right now are consumers are making healthier decisions, They're switching 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.680 from bread, meat, beef and lamb, and some extent poor 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.440 chicken and seafood. That's a trend that's happening already, or 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.120 the eating smaller portions in Europe for example, in some 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:42.680 case of the US. So they're making those healthy decisions 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.160 regardless of alternatives that are that are available to them, 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.440 and certainly they're looking for convenience. So yeah, you're seeing 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:51.120 the majority of meat I think you meant for most 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:56.280 animals being consumed in your prepackaged, preportioned individual cuts. It's 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:57.920 actually quite rare now to go and take a whole 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:00.840 chicken home in many of these countries, or bring home 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.160 a whole whole cut of lamb or beef. You know, 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.280 people are looking for convenience, and that's great news if 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:08.480 you are a supplier of alternative meat, because it means 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:10.640 you don't need to make your product look like an animal. 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.040 You need to make it look like the regurgitative product 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.000 that comes out of the end. Can you tell us 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:17.480 a bit more about who's involved in who's producing these 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.200 alternative proteins, and who's investing in them, so people are 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.920 generally familiar with the real market leaders here and possible 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:26.320 foods and beyond meat, and those firms have got enormous 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.440 traction off one know, I p o S and secondly 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.800 through announcements and partnerships with fast food chains in many 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.560 cases with McDonald's, with Starbucks, with Burger King. But there 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:37.520 are others out there. I mean, certainly if you're sitting 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:39.640 in the UK, be familiar with corn. It's been around 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.920 for decades now, Good Catch foods, doing seafood, you know, Primaries, 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.280 Alpha Foods. There's lots out there. These are the brand 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.760 names that are selling the alternatives, but actually what's interesting 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.920 is what's behind them right as some are still venture backed. 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:54.240 The top six players here have raised about two and 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.040 a half billion dollars since eleven. A lot of that's 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.600 come from venture, you know, from really big name venture 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.880 as well, also Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezas, Jay 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:06.920 z Serena Williams. Really broad pool of venture that it's 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.360 backing these companies. I guess. More recently we've seen a 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.440 wave of acquisitions and internal business units being started by 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.080 massive food conlawance. You know, Kellogg's has a stake here, 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:18.880 Maple Foods, Nestle, Craft, Hyn's, they're all getting in on 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:23.000 this space early really, but before we see massive baptech. Okay, 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:26.320 so you just mentioned Serena Williams, and I can't help 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.080 but immediately think. You know, she's a professional athlete. She 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:33.400 has got to have an extremely healthy diet, and she's 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:35.800 looking at this and she may have had the same 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.200 thoughts that I originally did when I went to take 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.800 a bite into my first beyond burger, which is, oh, 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:43.840 it's made of plants, so therefore it must be healthier. 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:47.120 Is that the case? It's complicated right to start with. 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:49.920 So certainly when you asked why they would choose or 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.560 become interested in plant based meat, the most common reason 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.360 they site is health. And then there's other attributes like 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.320 environmental you know, lower emissions or land use or water, 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.400 animal welfare they might care about, but health is certainly 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:04.400 number one. Firstly, what's interesting is if you are concerned 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:06.400 by health, is a greater chance you just eat less 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.239 meat than you you'll eat plant based meat. So if 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.360 there's complicating fact to number one. But secondly, let's talk 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.560 about the health of plant based meat, and it's really 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:17.159 debatable is whether it's healthier or not. You know, in 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:19.639 many cases you'll see that plant based meat has higher 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.320 fat content necessily saturated fat content. But if the higher 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:26.159 fat content, then meat lower protein content, and depending on 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.720 how you look at it, you know, higher sodium. What's 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.239 really complicated about this stuff is when you go and 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.320 buy some plant based meat off the shelf at a 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.400 test you or your local supermarket, it's already been mixed 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:38.359 with all these other ingredients to make it kind of 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.320 a final product, so it's already loaded with the sodium 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:43.280 or arrest of it. You're going by a container of 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:45.639 mints off the shelf next to it, and it's not 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:48.920 it's a raw ingredient. So quite often consumers are comparing 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.560 kind of a raw ingredient with a process ingredient, the 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:57.080 plant based. When you start comparing plant based products like 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:01.159 burger patties and sausages to meet burghers and sausages and 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.600 over comparing ingredients to products or comparing products to products, 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:06.840 then it starts to look a little bit better. Still, 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.560 the protein content is lower. Still, the fact content killed 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.359 can be higher, but suddenly the sodium would worry a 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.080 whole lot of consumers. Tends the balance out. Okay, so 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.040 we've spent a lot of time already today talking a 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:21.920 lot about this in terms of ground beef, and this 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:27.200 raises another point around what these alternative proteins actually are 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.360 what they're looking to mimic. So we're talking about what 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.720 we've got. You mentioned sausages, so we're talking pork, beef, chicken. 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:37.399 I think I've seen a toe fur ky in the past, 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.399 but maybe that doesn't fall into the scope here. And 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:43.119 then also fish, if you could give us a little 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:46.920 bit of insight into what this fish is like and 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.960 kind of what the potential uptake is of that. Sure, 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:52.199 so if you can name and animal, chances are there 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:54.680 there's a fake version out there. Most of the attention 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:58.320 to date has been around ground beef products. I think 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:00.480 one it's because there is That's where I'm most health 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:04.639 concerned lives. Secondly, it's because actually it's pretty easy to replicate. 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:07.760 You know, it's already highly processed, so therefore you know 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:09.840 you've mashed up all your vegetables or your plant into 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.800 this paste and arrive at something that isn't too similar 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.560 to ground beef. And further, I guess there is that 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:17.919 environmental impact as well, beef resulting a whole lot more 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:20.719 emissions than these other livestock animals do. That's why they 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.080 get attention, and hype has been around beat today. But 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:24.600 if you look at what's available on the shelf, and 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.080 you look at kind of sales by value out there, 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:30.160