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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Egg podcast.

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Speaker 1: Today we have part two of our actually three part

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Speaker 1: podcast with Yale golf coach Colin Shean. This podcast was

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Speaker 1: supposed to be two parts, but then had to wrap

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Speaker 1: up the pod after I already posted part one and

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Speaker 1: then Colin and I talked for like another forty minutes.

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Speaker 2: So Part three.

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Speaker 1: Will be out on Monday night, Tuesday morning ish.

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Speaker 2: And hope you guys enjoyed this episode.

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Speaker 1: I had a lot of fun talking with Colin, and

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Speaker 1: without further ado, here is part two of the three

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Speaker 1: part podcast.

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Speaker 3: I miss a green.

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Speaker 4: For example, I'm already upset when I find my ball

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Speaker 4: in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 3: And when I.

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Speaker 1: Find my ball in a Frida egg Frida egg, the

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Speaker 1: dreaded Frida egg Frida egg, Frida egggg Frida egg bride

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Speaker 1: egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the course.

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Speaker 1: Once you graduated college, you started writing and editing golfing magazine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the golfer magazine. I got this. I was,

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Speaker 3: I was.

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Speaker 4: I originally wanted to get into architecture. I sent a

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Speaker 4: few letters. I didn't In hindsight, he didn't really pursue

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Speaker 4: it as more aggressively.

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Speaker 3: I was too, I was too shy.

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Speaker 4: I guess God bless ron Force at least he he replied.

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Speaker 4: And we we had a series of long phone calls

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Speaker 4: and he was trying to figure out a way to

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Speaker 4: help me out, and and you know.

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Speaker 3: I wound up.

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Speaker 4: I used to I used to help when I was

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Speaker 4: sort of out of college, looking for work, living at home.

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Speaker 4: A neighbor of mine, Tom Graham, this wonderful guys like

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Speaker 4: twenty time club champion and country go to Fairfield, great player.

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Speaker 4: You know, he's an RNA seminole national guy. He occasionally

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Speaker 4: would ask me to, you know, drive him to the

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Speaker 4: airport or pick him up in the city or whatever.

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Speaker 4: It was almost like just welfare for me. And he'd

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Speaker 4: give me one hundred dollars. And one time I had

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Speaker 4: to go into the city to pick him and this

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Speaker 4: other guy up. They were at some black tie event

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Speaker 4: at the Metropolitan Club. It was like a Robert Burns

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Speaker 4: night in January, and they were having a laugh and

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Speaker 4: they mentioned they had served hagis and I casually said, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 4: that's what Sandy Lyle served at the for his Masters

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Speaker 4: for his Champions dinner in nineteen eighty nine, and.

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Speaker 3: They were like, how did you know that. I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I just I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I mentioned when I when I worked in the backroom

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Speaker 4: at the Patterson Club one year I worked for Brenda

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Speaker 4: Walsh when I was fifteen and sixteen, and I was

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Speaker 4: They asked me to help clean out the attic and

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Speaker 4: there was this cash of like Golf Digest from the

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Speaker 4: seventies a box. It must have been every issue from

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Speaker 4: like seventy two to seventy nine, and I wound up

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Speaker 4: reading them all. I wound up having a sort of

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Speaker 4: an unnecessary expertise in golf trivia and or just loving

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Speaker 4: the game.

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Speaker 3: It's really what it was.

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Speaker 4: And I was very lucky to caddy the country go

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Speaker 4: with Fairfield growing up, and my town had a nine

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Speaker 4: hole part three course, a public course at Jeff Cornish

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Speaker 4: Part three course that was a.

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Speaker 3: Dollar thirty five to play.

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Speaker 4: So I was always really a golf and then and

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Speaker 4: this guy in the backseat was the publisher of the

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Speaker 4: Golfer magazine, and he asked me if I wanted to

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Speaker 4: come to work on Monday.

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Speaker 3: And I was like sure.

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Speaker 4: I started in early February of ninety eight, just as

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Speaker 4: an editorial intern, and by the end of that year

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Speaker 4: I was managing editor of a small magazine.

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Speaker 3: But it was a great time to be in New York.

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Speaker 4: It was was it was wonderful to be sort of

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Speaker 4: writing and editing and traveling, still a healthy publishing circuit

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Speaker 4: of books coming in. We'd get the galleys to four

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Speaker 4: or five books every week. I remember just constantly reading

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Speaker 4: them all on the train. It was like a master's

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Speaker 4: degree in golf and golf architecture in those years. And

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Speaker 4: the one thing I really noticed was I was sent

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Speaker 4: to play a lot of new courses and they were

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Speaker 4: not good. They were not and they weren't nearly as

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Speaker 4: good as the old courses. It's when I really started

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Speaker 4: to see a sort of develop a sort of you know,

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Speaker 4: a sort of an opinion about modern courses and and

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Speaker 4: versus new and old. And it was just, you know,

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Speaker 4: it was it was. It was fascinating. It was fascinating

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Speaker 4: to see golf in that sort of era and interviewing,

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Speaker 4: interviewing architects and players, and it was I was living

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Speaker 4: paycheck to paycheck, but I was like a poverty jet

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Speaker 4: set lifestyle, going on press trips and and.

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Speaker 3: Checking in like to hotels and stuff.

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Speaker 4: It was you know, it was a good It was

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Speaker 4: the only time I could have done that when I

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Speaker 4: was sort of twenty two, twenty three, twenty four, and

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Speaker 4: but I still had an ambition to move beyond that.

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Speaker 4: As much as I enjoyed it, and I really did,

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Speaker 4: I wanted to get into uh, you know, design and

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Speaker 4: development projects eventually. The and the one sort of moment

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Speaker 4: that really sort of helped kick that along was visiting

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Speaker 4: Kingsbarnes in two thousand. I was so impressed with the

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Speaker 4: course in the context of what I had seen the

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Speaker 4: previous couple of years, when generally just seeing as just

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Speaker 4: a string of poor and mediocre new courses, uninspired, unwalkable, artificial,

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Speaker 4: just a litany.

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Speaker 3: Of just sort of.

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Speaker 4: Of demerits on every every course you went to. Kings

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Speaker 4: Barnes was amazing. And I was equally impressed by the

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Speaker 4: sort of restraint on the clubhouse, sort of small scale

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Speaker 4: of it.

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Speaker 3: And I.

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Speaker 4: Made it a point to find out who was involved

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Speaker 4: in the project, who developed it, and and I eventually

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Speaker 4: got in touch with Mark Parson, and super smart individual,

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Speaker 4: someone you should definitely have on your podcast, and we

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Speaker 4: became friends, and I eventually tracked him down. You know,

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Speaker 4: I tracked him down and we had a series of

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Speaker 4: just you know, two hour long phone calls, and he

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Speaker 4: told me about this. His next project was going to

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Speaker 4: be Castle Stewart in the Scottish Highlands, and you know,

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Speaker 4: I sort of agreed to you know, two or three

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Speaker 4: to be an intern on that project and move there.

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Speaker 4: And eventually, with a little bit of delay in the

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Speaker 4: permitting and entitlement process, it led to a moving there

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Speaker 4: in two thousand and six. I was there for the

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Speaker 4: majority of two that I was there for most of

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Speaker 4: two thousand and six and in portions of two thousand

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Speaker 4: and seven getting a witness a really complicated project from

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Speaker 4: the from the sort of ground up.

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Speaker 3: It was really cool.

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Speaker 1: So so at that point you're probably thinking you want

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Speaker 1: to go dive into golf architecture and that was your

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Speaker 1: big break?

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Speaker 2: What what uh?

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Speaker 1: Why didn't you get all the way into architecture.

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Speaker 4: I guess I'll admit that, you know, it's in hindsight,

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Speaker 4: I wasn't I wasn't willing to live the sort of.

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Speaker 3: Constant road warrior lifestyle.

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Speaker 4: I I probably should have been doing that and first

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Speaker 4: six ten years out of college, but you know.

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Speaker 3: I love living in New York.

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Speaker 4: I loved having all of my friends from from college,

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Speaker 4: you know, a lot of a lot of friends from

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Speaker 4: college there.

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Speaker 3: Eventually met my wife. You know.

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Speaker 4: It's just being being on the road, being living out

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Speaker 4: of a living out of a suitcase. I guess just

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Speaker 4: wasn't just wasn't practical, and I understood the trade off

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Speaker 4: and I but really it was about seeing things from

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Speaker 4: the point of view of the developer, and I was

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Speaker 4: I was more intrigued. I was interested by this concept

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Speaker 4: of maybe being only involved in five projects in a career,

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Speaker 4: but having them, but having them, but being involved in

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Speaker 4: the sort of on the development side of them as well,

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Speaker 4: and having them, you know, having a much longer and

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Speaker 4: relationship with those projects, sort of how I had envisioned

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Speaker 4: it at the time, you know.

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Speaker 3: And and then then.

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Speaker 4: That sort of fuels aspects of what I'm you know,

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Speaker 4: what you know, what we're what I'm trying to do now,

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Speaker 4: And in some way or another, that's what led to

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Speaker 4: me to sort of try to put the you know,

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Speaker 4: try to get the project in Cobtown going. It's sort

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Speaker 4: of what interests me about Kanka Key, That's what interests

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Speaker 4: me about uh, you know, those types of projects, maybe

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Speaker 4: having them come fewer and fewer than sort of idea

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Speaker 4: of coming in building something and leaving.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like having a long term connection, because that's

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Speaker 1: one of the saddest things is you go, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: go see a ton of places, and most of the

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Speaker 1: places I see that are public and once were great

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Speaker 1: are now at year sixty of the demise of them.

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Speaker 1: But I was in Philly recently and I saw Gill's

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Speaker 1: first project, Enniscrone, and I was walking around, and you know,

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Speaker 1: for what it is right now, it's a great public option.

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Speaker 1: But like you're walking around and I was just looking

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Speaker 1: at it and you see bent grass, long bent grass

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Speaker 1: and rough, you know, in the rough, and you realize like, well,

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Speaker 1: this is really this is almost more depressing because it's

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Speaker 1: ten years into the fifty or sixty year slide that

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Speaker 1: you see most courses.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing is architects, once they're done with a project,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of done, you know, It's it's out of

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Speaker 1: their hands then, and that that aspect of the business

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Speaker 1: is is almost the more important aspect, right.

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Speaker 4: That's interesting, Like you they don't have control after the

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Speaker 4: fact of how it's presented or but you know, it's it's.

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Speaker 4: It reminds me to an extent of the helplessness I

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Speaker 4: felt when I was sort of arguing with my publisher

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Speaker 4: about how he was going to present the book and

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Speaker 4: he wanted to do you know, three three volumes and

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Speaker 4: a slipcase, and and you know, I in the end

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Speaker 4: it was he was the publisher. I didn't have a choice,

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Speaker 4: even you know, in spite of the sort of you know,

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Speaker 4: all the hard work I did you hear that from

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Speaker 4: you definitely hear that from architects. You know, they spend

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Speaker 4: all that time working on stuff and then it's up

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Speaker 4: to the owner of the developer, or you know, the

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Speaker 4: market forces take place and the next thing you know,

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Speaker 4: it's right, it's been compromised.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's brutal.

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Speaker 1: It's I can only imagine how that feels like as

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Speaker 1: an architect, it was when you know something's going the

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Speaker 1: wrong way and and you can't do anything about it.

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Speaker 1: I saw one of Mike Devreeese's early courses and on

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Speaker 1: one of the holes a center line bunkers now a

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Speaker 1: center line pond. It's like, couldn't drain the bunker, so

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Speaker 1: you just make it a pond. It's like it makes

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Speaker 1: the it turns the hole from like a spectacular hole

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Speaker 1: that you know you could you felt like you were

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Speaker 1: on at Prairie Dunes once you get past the center

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Speaker 1: line pond on but instead like it's just offensive because

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Speaker 1: there's a pond in the center of the fairway right,

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Speaker 1: it's like exactly, and it's just And I remember texting him,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm sure the center line pond's not Originally

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Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, dot dot dot. You know, it's just

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Speaker 1: you lose so much of it. So you're you're a

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Speaker 1: big student of golf course architecture. If you were going

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Speaker 1: to put together a mount rush for more of architects,

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Speaker 1: who would it be on it?

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Speaker 4: I feel like, uh, I feel like when you're on

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Speaker 4: the best of Alice mackenzie, I feel like you're on

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Speaker 4: the work of genius. I do love Ah, I do

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Speaker 4: love McDonald. I do and it's even with this relatively

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Speaker 4: small sample size. Always always loved coult I've always loved

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Speaker 4: his work in the UK.

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Speaker 3: He was blessed with sort of sort of wonderful sites.

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Speaker 4: And then I do think and I think that I

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Speaker 4: probably could come up with a better answer, But I

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Speaker 4: still think Ross is sort of somehow underrated. He gets

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Speaker 4: like knocked for having so many courses. There's some in

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Speaker 4: his but the sort of I think that would be

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Speaker 4: my quick answer that.

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Speaker 3: You only get four for a Rushmore comparison.

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Speaker 2: Is yeah, yeah, yeah, we uh, who would be who would.

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Speaker 1: Be the one that is you'd say underappreciated where you'd say, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's not Mount Rushmore guy, but he's a

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Speaker 1: guy that everybody that the general public doesn't understand or

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Speaker 1: or that his you know that their work wasn't you

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Speaker 1: know it was misinterpreted or lost whatever.

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Speaker 4: Well, I agree that I agree with you that yeah,

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Speaker 4: you know, Langford, Langford and Moreau we're building, We're we're building.

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Speaker 4: We're ambitious in their in their projects in there, in

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Speaker 4: the degree of difficulty of the sort of shots around

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Speaker 4: the green I put them in there, I don't know,

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Speaker 4: So you have to in the in the met section,

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Speaker 4: you just you can see all these debreuemic courses that

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Speaker 4: are just sensational.

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Speaker 3: Walter Travis.

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Speaker 4: I can't even get over how good everything Walter Travis

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Speaker 4: ever did was fabulous, and I love his variety of bunkering.

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Speaker 4: William Flynn is there. I mean, there's not a more

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Speaker 4: perfect golf course than Shinnecock. You know, then his best work.

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Speaker 4: Who else isn't getting you know, he's well covered.

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Speaker 2: Perry Maxwell, Harry.

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Speaker 3: Maxwell, jeez, I just took the team this fall. I

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Speaker 3: took it.

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Speaker 4: The UH old Town had an event. For the first

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Speaker 4: time in the history of Wake four and in fifty years,

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Speaker 4: Old Town hosted a Wake Forest tournament this past September

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Speaker 4: on a Monday Tuesday. The practice round was the Sunday

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Speaker 4: that Tiger won the Tour championship. By the way, that

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Speaker 4: place is sensational. That's what Augusta wants to be. The

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Speaker 4: width of the course was incredible, that the sort of

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Speaker 4: and yet the angles that the critical sort of preferred

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Speaker 4: angles were or something my players.

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Speaker 3: Love figuring out. I'm blown over.

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Speaker 4: Perry Maxwell's sensational.

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Speaker 2: So how do you how do you go about building

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Speaker 2: a schedule?

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Speaker 1: Did you see that they were going to host an

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Speaker 1: old Town and immediately or like we have to go there?

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Speaker 4: We got invited? That was an invite? UH coach hoss Uh,

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Speaker 4: he's a friend. But maybe Dunlop White their their golf

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Speaker 4: care recommended Yale. We always bring a little you know,

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Speaker 4: we bring a touch of class to an event when

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Speaker 4: when Yale Yale's there, we bring our twenty one national

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Speaker 4: championships to the UH. But UH, that was just an

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Speaker 4: honor to get invited. And we went down on Saturday morning.

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Speaker 4: It was a Monday Tuesday event and so we we

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Speaker 4: flew down Saturday morning. We played an extra practice round

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Speaker 4: which was which was really useful. And but yeah, so

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Speaker 4: we we we we generally play in the Northeast. Were

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Speaker 4: limited to sort of a certain number of degrees on

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Speaker 4: the road. Days on the road, you know, dates of

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Speaker 4: competition are limited, uh to an extent. We definitely have

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Speaker 4: a sort of a cap on our Monday Tuesday tournaments.

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Speaker 3: We basically try to play one of those a year.

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Speaker 4: But so that was a cou to get in it.

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Speaker 4: We played the team the boys were boys played great.

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Speaker 4: They played their way into the final pairing for with

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Speaker 4: with Wake and Louisville. On the sort of final round

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Speaker 4: on Tuesday morning, we stubbed our toe a bit and

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Speaker 4: finished sixth. But it was a fabulous experience that that

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Speaker 4: that there needs to be more events like that, and

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Speaker 4: you know, and I and we're invited back, but the

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Speaker 4: club only gave Wake a.

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Speaker 3: Two year contract.

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Speaker 4: They you know, yeah, there one more year than augustin

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Speaker 4: National gives CBS.

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Speaker 3: But hopefully that becomes a fixture because that that was a.

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Speaker 4: Perfect example of an event where, you know, seventy five

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Speaker 4: college golfers were treated to a pre World War two gem.

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Speaker 4: Those walkable, fabulous scores were low, but who cares? Best

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Speaker 4: best team won, the best player the best player one.

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Speaker 1: I kind of feel that way with like great architecture.

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Speaker 1: It's rendered you know, it's rendered less, you know, challenging

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Speaker 1: by distance and technology, but I feel like it still

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Speaker 1: separates the class because of the green complexes and the

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Speaker 1: angles that they force, Like especially at really great golf courses,

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Speaker 1: like you still have to play them really well to

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Speaker 1: take advantage of the distance because you can be in

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Speaker 1: positions on a good you know, well designed great greens

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Speaker 1: like Maxwell greens. If you're out of position, you know

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Speaker 1: you have you just have no chance. It doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: if you're fifty yards or two hundred and fifty yards.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely you get the I love the sort of the

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Speaker 4: the scoring, the elasticity of scoring, where a player plays

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Speaker 4: well shoots sixty seven and someone else plays poorly and

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Speaker 4: it's seventy seven. It's like you can and then you could.

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Speaker 4: Those two golfers could flip roles and flip scores.

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Speaker 3: The next day. You know.

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Speaker 4: It's I find that interesting, Like it appears easy until

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Speaker 4: it's not. Until you're out of position and you're making bogies.

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Speaker 4: It's like there's something. It's it's not always apparent, like

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Speaker 4: why you're able to stay underneath the hole, it's because

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Speaker 4: you set it up with the good t ball. And

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Speaker 4: I was blown away by Old Town being like probably

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Speaker 4: as close to what Augusta National looked like, and when

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Speaker 4: when Old Town opened in nineteen thirty nine, it had to.

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Speaker 3: Be like a twin with Augusta.

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Speaker 4: National in nineteen thirty nine, that had to be so

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Speaker 4: remarkably similar.

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Speaker 2: It's I'm really kind of bummed out.

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Speaker 1: I always make like every start of the year, I

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Speaker 1: have five courses that I want to see for the year,

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Speaker 1: and it was like one of the five that I

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Speaker 1: wanted to see just because of like the way Bill

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Speaker 1: Krr talks about Old Town. It's like that's the place

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Speaker 1: you got to go see and now you're hearing that,

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Speaker 1: hearing you say that, and I was talking to a

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Speaker 1: guy and he was like, Oh, they a flood washed

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Speaker 1: away one of their holes, so they have to rebuild

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Speaker 1: one of the holes out there. And I'm like, he's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can't, can't go down there until the next year.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, ship, you know, I didn't. I didn't get

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Speaker 1: that one. Get that one done this year?

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Speaker 3: How recently was that?

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Speaker 1: Like, I think it was like a couple of weeks ago. Wow,

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Speaker 1: so you might must have gotten it right before. I

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Speaker 1: think it was the hurricane. It was hurricane enough, it

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Speaker 1: was flow.

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Speaker 4: Oh well, the major. It's possible they had just they

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Speaker 4: had sidestepped the one that hit the hit.

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Speaker 3: The coast, but maybe I don't know. Yeah, you know

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Speaker 3: the one that came up.

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Speaker 2: So uh you you I know you love golf in

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Speaker 2: the UK. Have you been to Australia?

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Speaker 3: Definitely?

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Speaker 4: I went on one trip in March or April of

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Speaker 4: two thousand and three. It might have been there thirteen

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Speaker 4: days and played like eighteen courses. It was an aggressive visit.

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Speaker 1: Very the way it has to be, though, when you

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Speaker 1: don't know when you're going to go back there, you

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Speaker 1: never know.

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Speaker 3: It was beautiful.

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Speaker 4: Fell in love with the Seven Sisters loved New South Wales,

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Speaker 4: could live in Sydney, enjoyed Newcastle, did not get to

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Speaker 4: and then finished in Natelaide, did not get to any

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Speaker 4: of the islands. At that point I sort of figured

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Speaker 4: out I'd have to get back.

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Speaker 2: You got to take a team dream trip down there.

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Speaker 3: I know we're allowed to do so.

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Speaker 4: One of the great sort of legacies of my predecessor

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Speaker 4: is the international trip. I was so fortunate to go

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Speaker 4: on it in tw nineteen ninety six as a junior coach.

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Speaker 4: Patterson began in nineteen seventy five. He took the team

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Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy six on the first of what must

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Speaker 4: have been eight quadrennial trips. So the ENNSAA allows you

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Speaker 4: to have an international trip to compete internationally once every

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Speaker 4: four years, so essentially one time in your undergraduate experience,

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Speaker 4: and he takes them to England and Scotland. He took

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Speaker 4: them to England and Scotland for two weeks and played

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Speaker 4: matches against Oxford and Cambridge and the Universities of St

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Speaker 4: Andrews and Edinburgh and equally fun like club matches against

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Speaker 4: the Old Buffties at Mierfield and Royal Sinkport's and Royal

390
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Speaker 4: Liverpool and that trip to me in nineteen ninety six,

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Speaker 4: our spring break trip. We went in March, two weeks

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Speaker 4: a fortnite in the UK during March where we played

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Speaker 4: alternate shot and played winter golf and we got snowed

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Speaker 4: out at Oxford and that was the sort of most

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Speaker 4: important two weeks of my time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's where you.

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Speaker 4: Know, it's like golfing diplomacy. It was just fascinating to

398
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Speaker 4: play links courses, to play Heathland courses, to just just

399
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Speaker 4: completely fall in love with the culture of golf, the

400
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Speaker 4: pace of play, the way they sort of the way

401
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 4: everyone had a crooked swing and they were all so competitive,

402
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Speaker 4: the ground game. I just love the camaraderie, you know,

403
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Speaker 4: just and that became I sort of spent. I returned

404
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Speaker 4: in ninety eight, and then I between ninety eight and

405
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Speaker 4: sort of two thousand and eight, I probably made thirty

406
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Speaker 4: five trips to the UK and lived over there for

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Speaker 4: you know, it's probably easily spent over a year and

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Speaker 4: eighteen months of my life over there.

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Speaker 1: So I was gonna ask you, like, if you could

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Speaker 1: play one area the rest of your life, where would

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Speaker 1: it be. But I almost would say, like if you

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Speaker 1: at ten rounds and you're in the in the UK,

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Speaker 1: where would it be?

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Speaker 3: Everywhere?

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Speaker 4: There's not a There's there's literally seventeen regions with a

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Speaker 4: week's worth of golf that you could play. But I

417
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Speaker 4: would say, uh, every time I want to say I'm

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Speaker 4: partial to Scotland and Ireland, I sort of realize I'm

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Speaker 4: partial to England. I've only spent one week in Wales

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Speaker 4: and it's beautiful there. But I guess I would. To me,

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Speaker 4: I would have told you in two thousand that I would.

422
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Speaker 4: My goal would have been to retire with a or

423
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Speaker 4: have a small house in Ireland near Ross's Point, County

424
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Speaker 4: Sligo Golf Club, or a sort of a dream would

425
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Speaker 4: be to sort of spend six weeks in Sligo every

426
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Speaker 4: summer playing Ross's Point at five pm, playing.

427
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Speaker 3: Twilight like golf there.

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Speaker 4: It was before, of course was probably uh modified by

429
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Speaker 4: Pat Ruddy and I don't.

430
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Speaker 3: I don't have the same affection for it anymore, but

431
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Speaker 3: I think now I might.

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Speaker 4: I probably would probably sort of live somewhere in the

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Speaker 4: west of Ireland, probably in St Andrew's. I also could

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Speaker 4: see myself down on the coast near uh Sandwich, any

435
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 4: anywhere yeah, I couldn't. You know, you can't spend enough,

436
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 4: You can't spend enough days of your life golfing in

437
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Speaker 4: the UK and Ireland. You really can't.

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Speaker 1: What's what's your favorite course that you've never nobody ever

439
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Speaker 1: talks about?

440
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Speaker 3: You know, Well, my whole, my.

441
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Speaker 4: Whole advice everybody when I send them is is to

442
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Speaker 4: make sure you you you you pace your itinerary with

443
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 4: more than a few hidden gems. And it's not just

444
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,400
Speaker 4: you know, Open Rota World Top one hundred courses. They're

445
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 4: all great, but in my experience of running running tours,

446
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 4: they are taking groups from the Outpost club or even

447
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 4: the Yelle golf team when we've gone we went in

448
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 4: two thousand and eight, in twenty twelve and sixteen. For

449
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 4: every Royal Dornick, there's a there's a Brora, There's there's

450
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 4: losty Mouth, There's Montrose, Kraale, London, leaven Ely. You know,

451
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 4: you can name the whole all of the courses in

452
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 4: the in Cornwall and dev and I took my seventy

453
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 4: seven year old father this summer on a on a

454
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 4: tour of a few courses in England and we and

455
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 4: we played Polborough and Broadstone and Saunton East and Burnam

456
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 4: and Barrow and Minchhampton Old and Wentworth East, and you

457
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 4: could have and they were all short and fun and

458
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 4: they were a delight there. Even there's something so gratifying

459
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 4: about a course that's where you're the only Americans there

460
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 4: that day, and and there's one hundred and fifty examples

461
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 4: of that.

462
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 3: I love.

463
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 4: But of course, if I had to say one, if

464
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 4: I had to pick a course where I actually I

465
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 4: realized where I would live now, I would play my

466
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 4: golf at the Royal West Norfolk Golf Club. I'd play

467
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 4: Brancaster while it still exists, and I'd live somewhere in

468
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 4: Wells next the sea, on the sort of on the

469
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 4: North Norfolk coast, and and I would hide out there

470
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 4: and I'd play my two ball golf and and wear

471
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 4: long socks and uh and have and have and have

472
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 4: my golfing days be spent with, you know, playing singles

473
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 4: and foursomes golf with friends and family coming in to visit.

474
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 3: That'd be a good answer.

475
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 1: That that course has the original short hole right is

476
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: the fourth hole right correct?

477
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 4: And the road is only accessible to the club during

478
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 4: certain you know, is occasionally inaccessible during high tides, and

479
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 4: it's probably the most vulnerable links to coastal erosion of

480
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 4: any course in the UK or one on the short list.

481
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 3: And it's fascinating.

482
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 4: It's just how beautiful and fragile it is, and how

483
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 4: sort of quirky and unusual, and and how much and

484
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 4: how much fun it is. It's really incredible. I took

485
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 4: a group of sixteen I think I took twelve players

486
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 4: there in twenty seventeen and they all loved it.

487
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 3: They all loved it.

488
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 4: And then of course around the corner is Hunt Stanton

489
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 4: and on that trip we played Jeez, we played Royal Worlington,

490
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 4: played around at nots hallin'well and then maybe England's best

491
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 4: inland course, Woodhall.

492
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 3: Spa, which is like a pine valley, which is unreal.

493
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,719
Speaker 4: Yale and Woodhall Spa are some our two courses that

494
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 4: could sort of be compared favorably and they should both

495
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 4: be in any world top thirty if the if you know,

496
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 4: or top forty in terms of the just design the uh.

497
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: I've seen pictures of Woodhall. The scale of the bunkers

498
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: is just out of this world, you know, and when

499
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: it shows in photos it's like you know, it's big

500
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: like Yale's scale and photos shows, but then when you're

501
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: there you're even more like, oh my god, this is

502
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: out of this world.

503
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: How big this is, you know, and.

504
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: Then you think about how they played it back in

505
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: the day, and it's like, God, if they could play

506
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: it now and they That's the saddest thing to me

507
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: when you play these courses like Yale is like you

508
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: realize that no modern architect can even do this now

509
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: because of the critics and the way people will just

510
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: be like.

511
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 2: No, you can't do this.

512
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: You can't have a blind shot off the tee and

513
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,719
Speaker 1: then a blind shot over a blind twenty foot bunker

514
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: into a green like that doesn't work.

515
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 2: We can't do that. It's like, why what everyone's you do?

516
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, well everyone's are right, because you get in trouble.

517
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 4: All these self important critics out there, like you know,

518
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 4: the not Andy Johnson's of the world are gonna say

519
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 4: that this is unfair. You know, I am all for

520
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 4: this presentation of fair, fun and fair. But you know,

521
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 4: like when golf was played in the teens and twenties

522
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 4: with with the equipment they had now, granted they weren't

523
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 4: as long and the ball did roll on irrigation less fairways.

524
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 4: You know, when the game was challenging, it wasn't patronizing,

525
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 4: it wasn't dumbing itself down. And the literature of the

526
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 4: game was never better. The architecture of the game was

527
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 4: never better.

528
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 3: The it's its.

529
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 4: Attention as a mass, as a sort of you know,

530
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 4: as a as a headline grabbing sport with Bobby Jones

531
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 4: and others.

532
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 3: It was. It was this true golden age.

533
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 4: And I don't remember, you know, think about those think

534
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 4: about how difficult it was, and I think that, you know,

535
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 4: that's what Yale was partially about, like in this this

536
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 4: sort of old fashioned Victorian you know, ethics of of

537
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 4: just you know, you're it wasn't recreation, it was it

538
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 4: was this. It was this sort of process that helped,

539
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 4: you know, a Teddy Roosevelt style kind of battle of

540
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 4: self improvement and overcoming adversity and you know, you know,

541
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 4: over you know, you know, responding to the challenge and

542
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,479
Speaker 4: the task at hand without any sort of whimpering or

543
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 4: or you know, complaining. Then I think that's what how

544
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 4: you how they must have played it must have thought

545
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 4: of Yale in its difficulty. It's like, well, you only

546
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 4: have to beat your opponent by one whole or one stroke,

547
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 4: and it's out there, and in some ways the architecture

548
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 4: is there to break you, to get you, to get

549
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 4: you to give up, to capitulate. You know, that's partially

550
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 4: what was going on there. Can you can you can

551
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 4: you sort of persevere through this, through these challenges, through

552
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 4: these bunkers, through these seemingly unfair shots.

553
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: What fastest it fascinates me is like the popularity of

554
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: golf at that time was insane too. You know, in

555
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: the twenties and the thirties, it was become before the

556
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: Great Depression, it was becoming one of the biggest sports,

557
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: I guess you could call it in America. You know,

558
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: it was on the rise, and it was all centered

559
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: around this. It wasn't like the the difficulty of.

560
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: Golf is what makes the game great. It's not.

561
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: It's not like if it was easy, people wouldn't have

562
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: these sicko obsessions, like I wouldn't.

563
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 3: Like I just would be bowling.

564
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right, Like it was, Uh, it

565
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 4: was a challenge. And by the way golf like it

566
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 4: took off, it populated throughout America, like they went from

567
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 4: they went from they went from three holes in an

568
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 4: apple tree to like five hundred courses and clubs within

569
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 4: thirty years. Like it was incredible. The way it spread

570
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 4: to every.

571
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 3: Corner of America. It was it was unreal.

572
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 4: And I and and I think they were able to

573
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 4: take exist they were taking They took advantage of beautiful properties,

574
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 4: often you know, existing land that had been existing, farmland.

575
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 3: That had been already drained, or beautiful coastlines.

576
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 4: I'm fascinated by how the game grew, by how they

577
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 4: even just watching architects, shapers and construction crews rebuild a

578
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 4: bunker and imagining them building the amount of golf courses

579
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 4: they did in that era, and how hard it must

580
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 4: have been to just just to move soil, and it's

581
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 4: it's really incredible. We have to, you know, some ways

582
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 4: we should that, you know that we have to honor

583
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 4: that instead of trying to sort of remove bunkers, dumb

584
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 4: down courses, make them easy.

585
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 3: Your make you know, fear losing.

586
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 4: You know, even these rule changes are all sort of

587
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 4: geared towards kind of softening the game.

588
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 3: It's not it's not.

589
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 4: It's there's no way that should be the sort of

590
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 4: the sort.

591
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:15,719
Speaker 3: Of trend that we're going in.

592
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 2: But see how it is, Yeah, it's a.

593
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: It's that's like I think the biggest problem with municipal

594
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: golf and in general is like they think it because

595
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: it's for the public, it has to be dumbed down

596
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: and boring. If anything, it should be like more interesting

597
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: and more captivating and and so much wildly more different

598
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,479
Speaker 1: than your status quo golf because it's for people that

599
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: are just you're trying to introduce the game, to introduce

600
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: them to the best type of golf, don't introduce them

601
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: to the to the worst, most watered. Like if you

602
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: were going to try and get somebody to be interested

603
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: in drinking coffee, would you give them the worst taste

604
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: a cup of coffee?

605
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 2: Like it's kind of crazy that we think this way.

606
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 4: Well you know what, but I you know, and then

607
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 4: yet it's such a it's such a beautiful game that

608
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 4: even in those moments like when I used to take

609
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 4: the when I was living in Brooklyn and take the

610
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 4: R train out to Uh out to Dyker Dyker Beach,

611
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 4: uh and it would be like the winter solstice and

612
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 4: there'll be forty golfers on the course playing a muddy wet,

613
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 4: you know, golf course, and yet it's it's just something

614
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 4: even even I'm blown away by when, even when it's

615
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 4: presented in such poor conditioning, how the appeal just still

616
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 4: shines through. How there's still one hundred thousand rounds at

617
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 4: Rancho Park. Or you know, I'm always driving when we

618
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 4: go to our visit my family, my, my, my, We we

619
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 4: drive to Long Island and we on the sort of

620
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 4: throgs Neck bridge. Is that is the clear you see

621
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 4: the you see the public course from the bridge, and

622
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 4: it's it's the wind. Sure, it's Christmas Day and it's

623
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 4: there's there's four there's golfers everywhere.

624
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 3: And then we pass a driving.

625
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 4: Range uh in Bayside and there's and there's every stall

626
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 4: is filled with golfers in the winter.

627
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 3: It's like incredible.

628
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're sickos. You know, we're all sickos, We're allis

629
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: and it's.

630
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 1: All because you're trying to trying to get better. Nobody

631
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: ever feels like they're the best they can be ever.

632
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 2: You know, that's the whole.

633
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: That's everything in sports though, it's all about overcoming adversity.

634
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: You've been listening to the fried Egg podcast. We do

635
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: the digging for you,