WEBVTT - Liar, Liar 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:10.360 Col Zo Media. It was a Sunday afternoon in January 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:12.559 of twenty twenty four when the doorbell rang at a 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:17.079 journalists home in North Carolina. Jordan Green, a reporter who's 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.320 coverage of far right extremism at Raw Story I greatly admire, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:23.000 had been working on a story about a neo Nazi 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:26.400 group called two to one nineteen, and they knew it. 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:30.360 This wasn't the first time the subjects of his work 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:32.760 had tried to threaten and intimidate him, and it wouldn't 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:36.720 be the last. But on that particular day, it was 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.159 just a pizza. It's sort of a juvenile thing to do, 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:43.800 and in any other context it's a harmless prank that 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:47.920 mostly just hurts the pizza delivery driver. It's happened to 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:51.120 me a couple of times, this mysterious pizza you didn't order. 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:55.240 You're just standing there with your front door open, confused 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:59.720 at first, before the realization washes over you. The delivery 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:04.120 driver or isn't at the wrong house. This isn't your pizza, 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.960 you know that, but it isn't your neighbor's pizza either. 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:13.280 It's a warning. Someone wants you to know. We see you, 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:16.800 we know where you are, We know where you think 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:21.319 you're safe, and we're thinking about you today. It's just 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:23.959 a pizza you didn't want, but we want you to 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:27.000 know the next time you hear something on your front porch, 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:31.919 it could be something different. The next day, a photo 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:34.920 of Green standing on his front door appeared online, posted 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.680 by an extremist group. Someone had been outside, sitting in 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:41.120 their car snapping pictures with the telephoto lens when we 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:44.920 opened the door. But what the watcher didn't know is 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:48.880 that he was being watched too. Anti fascist researchers were 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.320 able to identify the owner of that vehicle as twenty 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:55.000 year old kai Liam Nicks, a soldier stationed at Fort 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:58.680 Liberty digging through mountains of leaked materials from the white 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:02.320 supremacist group Patriot Front. Researchers and journalists were able to 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:04.920 match Nicks to the pseudonymous posts made by a Patriot 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:09.079 Front recruiter using the name Patrick. When Nis was asked 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.720 by New Yorker reporter David Kirkpatrick if he had any 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:14.000 involvement with Patriot Front or with the group that had 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.359 been harassing Jordan Green, he denied it, saying that is 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:19.919 a hate group and you can't be in the military 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:25.679 and a hate group at the same time. And that's true, Well, 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.600 it's half true. The other half will have to wait 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.799 for a verdict because Nis was right that as a 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.800 specialist in the United States Army, he was not allowed 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:38.040 to be a member of Patriot Front. When he backed 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.160 out of a meeting with Kirkpatrick after that phone call, 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:44.799 the reporter called the Army. Nicks wouldn't be answering any 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:49.320 more of the reporter's phone calls. He'd been arrested, but 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:55.040 he wasn't arrested for pizza pranks. Who's arrested for lying? 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:17.000 I'm Molly Conger and this is weird. Little guy kay 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.640 Nix was arrested in August of twenty twenty four and 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:23.680 charged with dealing firearms without a license, possession of stolen firearms, 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.280 and one more thing, which is the thing we're going 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.280 to be talking about today. It's something I think is 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.040 a little more interesting than a guy who can't be 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:34.080 bothered to buy his guns at the store like a 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.440 normal person. Guys like this getting arrested for having a 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:40.720 gun they shouldn't have are a dime a dozen. But 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:42.880 the other charge on the indictment is something a little 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:47.000 more unique. He was charged with making a materially false 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.880 statement to the United States Government. According to the indictment, 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:55.240 he falsely claimed, quote he had never been a member 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.400 of a group dedicated to the use of violence or 0:03:57.440 --> 0:03:59.960 forced to overthrow the United States government, and which engaged 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.920 and activities to that end, And the statements and representations 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:05.520 were false because, as the defendant then and they're new, 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.480 he had been a member of a group dedicated to 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:10.360 the use of violence or forced to over the United 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:13.520 States government, and which engaged in activities to that end. 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.719 Which is kind of a mouthful, but what that boils 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:20.560 down to is actually a single checkbox on a one 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:24.159 hundred and thirty six page form that hundreds of thousands 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.799 of Americans fill out every year, the Standard Form eighty 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:32.080 six or SF eighty six for short. It's the basic 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:34.159 questionnaire you fill out as the starting point for a 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:38.719 background investigation for a security clearance. It's required when enlisting 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.159 in the military, and for many jobs with the federal 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.680 government or with private companies that work on government contracts. 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.520 It's pretty thorough, but most of the questions aren't really 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.239 surprising stuff. You know your name, your date of birth, 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:53.520 everywhere you've lived for the last ten years, along with 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.360 contact information for a landlord or a neighbor who would 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.119 remember you, everywhere you've worked for the last ten years, 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:03.000 and someone who would remember you from that job. The 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:05.599 form also requires you to provide information about all of 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:08.839 your immediate family members, where they live, where they work, 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.640 and how often you have contact with them. You have 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:14.080 to provide detailed information about any contacts you have with 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:17.480 foreign nationals, any business and property interests that you have, 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:21.400 particularly those outside of the United States, and any international 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:26.160 trips you've taken. I remember, years ago and another lifetime, 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:29.559 practically getting contacted out of the blue by some dour 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:31.760 federal agent who needed to speak with me about a 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:35.520 girl I barely remembered. We'd had a couple of classes 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.800 together in college. We weren't close or anything, but one 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:40.680 summer when I was still in college, we were both 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:43.040 in Germany at the same time, and we spent an 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:47.000 afternoon together. I was visiting family friends. I think she 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:51.160 was doing some kind of summer program and internship or something. Honestly, 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:54.239 I don't know, but this was the era of putting 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:56.440 your whole life on Facebook, and she saw that I 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:58.880 was in Germany and reached out about getting together and 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:03.960 catching up. And a few years after that fairly unmemorable afternoon, 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:06.200 she was getting a security clearance for some kind of 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.000 government job, and there I was sitting at a coffee 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.640 shop being asked if we'd ever had any conversations about 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:15.599 overthrowing the government of the United States. I was so 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:19.320 innocent then, I remember thinking, is that even a kind 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.960 of conversation people have? I think we went to a 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:27.000 beer hall. That was, of course, years before I found 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.640 out I had a gluten intolerance, and well before I 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.880 had a hard drive full of neo Nazi manifestos. It 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:36.200 was a different time. Come to think of it, maybe 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:39.839 they don't always talk to everyone you ever got a 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.560 beer with in Germany, and it maybe had something to 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:44.800 do with the afternoon. I spent in a holding cell 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:48.040 at the Munich airport later that summer after a slight 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:52.320 miscommunication with the German federal police. But that's neither here 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.559 nor there. I got that sorted out. What I'm saying 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:58.159 is the form is very long, and it asks you 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.479 about everyone you've ever met and everywhere you've ever been, 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:08.840 and you can't lie, You really really can't lie. It's 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.000 not like lying on a job application or patting your 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.360 resume a little bit, where if you get found out, 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.920 maybe you get fired. This is not a matter of 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:22.400 professional ethics. We're not talking about you not getting the job. 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:26.000 We're talking about up to five years in federal prison, 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.520 because it is a federal crime to lie, even by 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:32.520 omission on that form or in any of the subsequent 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:36.960 interviews during the background investigation process. You don't have free 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.679 speech in these conversations. You have to tell the truth, 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.840 and very deep in that form. After pages and pages 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:46.520 of tedious stuff like trying to find a phone number 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.320 for the landlord at your college apartment, you have to 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:53.360 check yes or no to question twenty nine point four, 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.600 have you ever been a member of an organization dedicated 0:07:57.600 --> 0:07:59.480 to the use of violence or forced over the United 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:01.880 States cover and which engaged in activities to that end 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.320 with an awareness of the organization's indication to that end, 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.440 or with the specific intent to further such activities, And 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:10.600 then on the next page you check yes or no 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:14.360 again for question twenty nine point five, have you ever 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.120 been a member of an organization that advocates or practices 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:19.880 commission of acts of force or violence? To discourage others 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.920 from exercising their rights under the US Constitution or any 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:24.840 state of the United States with a specific intent to 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:29.920 further such action. Again, kind of a mouthful. And if 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.160 you check yes to either of those questions, you have 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:34.560 to provide the contact information for the hate group you 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:37.600 are in. But I'm not sure anyone ever checks yes. 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:41.240 If you've checked yes to either of those questions and 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:44.520 then successfully gotten a security clearance, I'd love to hear 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:48.480 from you, reach out. But think about the wording of 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.160 that question. Have you ever been a member of a 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:54.400 group that advocates for the use of force to discourage 0:08:54.480 --> 0:09:00.200 others from exercising their rights? That's pretty broad White's miss 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.640 groups routinely engage in rhetoric about forcing the collapse of 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:07.240 the government, about making journalists afraid to write, making activists 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.280 afraid to protest, about making black people and Jewish people 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:12.760 and queer people afraid to walk down a public street 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.600 or enter a house of worship. And it's not just talk. 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.199 Plenty of these groups regularly engage in direct action to 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:24.840 actually achieve these goals. Patriot Fronts specifically, is currently being 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:28.360 sued in federal court in North Dakota Virginia and Massachusetts 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:32.960 for engaging in conspiracy to violate people's civil rights. So 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:38.360 this is not a hypothetical. This is already happening. But 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.920 Kai Nix checked the no box. The government contends that 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.560 he should not have. His attorney told The New York 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:49.559 Times that we should avoid rushing to judgment in this case, 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:52.880 and mister Nicks looks forward to making his presentation in court. 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:58.480 So we won't talk about Kai Nicks not today. He is, 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.760 as we all are when an ind comes down, innocent 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:05.800 until proven guilty. But the story got me thinking about 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:09.120 that charge about lying on your s f eighty six. 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:13.600 It's a concept I'm familiar with, but in the course 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:17.040 of my work, I've actually only seen it a few times. 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.559 So we can't talk about Kai. He'll have his day 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.080 in court. But we can look at the cases of 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:25.679 the handful of guys whose names I've jotted down over 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:29.320 the years, who caught checking no when they should have 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:31.800 checked yes when they were asked about their involvement in 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.439 trying to overthrow the government or systematically bilate civil rights. 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:38.920 Because for as many Nazi marines as I could rattle 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:40.440 off to you off the top of my head, I 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:44.520 can only think of four other cases where someone involved 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:49.280 in extremist activity was actually charged and convicted specifically for 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:52.839 lying on an s F eighty six, And I think 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.040 there's as much to be learned by exploring the possible 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:58.280 reasons why we don't see this charge more often as 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:00.840 there is from looking at the cases where we do. 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:06.120 To be clear, I'm not saying it's vanishingly rare for 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:08.400 someone to get charged for lying on an s F 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:12.040 eighty six. It does happen, just not usually in the 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:15.640 kinds of cases I'm looking at in my work, So 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.520 if you ever find yourself filling one out, you should 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:24.000 probably tell the truth. Just a quick skim for charges 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:27.880 under this statute returned some fun hits. A guy in 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.600 Ohio failed to mention his checking account in a tie 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:32.760 bank when he was applying for a job at NASA. 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:35.920 He got a year of probation and a ten thousand 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:40.000 dollars fine. A congressional staffer got into some hot water 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:43.079 for leaving out his history of tax troubles. A former 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:45.920 Fox News guest commentator thought his long running lie about 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:48.000 having been in the CIA would be just as effective 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.720 when he applied for a security clearance as it was 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.959 when he was lying to your parents on TV. A 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:56.760 couple of DEA agents were convicted for leaving out their 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:00.000 side hustle, which happened to be running a strip club 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.600 in New Jersey where a lot of people were buying 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:07.360 and selling drugs. So it does happen. People are getting 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.760 charged with this, but it mostly happens to government employees 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:15.680 who were not completely transparent about their foreign bank accounts 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.840 or trips to China. But if every person enlisting in 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:23.320 the military is filling out this form, if every guy 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.440 who makes it through the process and shows up at 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.640 basic training is checking no to both of those questions, 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:32.520 how are there so many white supremacists in the military 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:38.439 actually enforcing this one little paperwork technicality really coming down 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.440 hard on guys who said no when they should have 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.719 said yes, I violate people's civil rights. Every weekend when 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.680 I get together with the boys, would go a long 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:51.240 way towards rooting out extremists in the military. If they 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.840 had good reason to believe they might catch a federal 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.200 felony for it, they might be less likely to take 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:00.520 that risk when enlisting. Because whether or not I personally 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.679 believe that justice system really has justice in mind all 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.400 the time, if you take them at their word. One 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:11.040 of the stated reasons for punishing individuals for crime is 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:14.000 the idea that seeing someone else get punished for a 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:18.320 particular crime, knowing that that possibilities on the table, will 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:22.079 deter others from committing the same crime. So if every 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:24.680 guy in a white supremacist street gang or an underground 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.120 Nazi terror cell had good reason to believe he would 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.960 get caught for this, if he knew he would get 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.240 caught trying to enlist to get free training on how 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:35.839 to become a better killer, it might make it a 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:41.120 less attractive option. But the government doesn't really use this 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:45.600 particular tool very often. Some of the hesitation to bring 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:48.840 the charge is almost certainly just the simple fact that 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.040 no federal prosecutor will take a case he isn't one 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:56.720 hundred and ten percent sure he's going to win. Almost 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.120 every federal criminal case ends in a guilty plea. They 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:04.280 just don't file charges that they think you'll fight. And 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:06.360 there is a lot of gray area built in from 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:10.760 the start with this right. So what is an organization? 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:16.600 What is membership? It sounds silly, but like the interpretation 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:20.800 of the language here really matters in court, because they 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:24.120 can't prosecute you for an ideology. It's not illegal for 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:27.960 you to be racist. The problem is acting on those 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.080 feelings in an organized way to intentionally violate the rights 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:35.640 of others, and then lying about the language here is clear. 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.440 It's not about what you believe. The question is asking 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:43.000 if you're a member of an organization that does or 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:47.200 believes these things right. They're not asking what's in your heart. 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:51.600 It's asking you very specifically about your associations and the 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:55.480 activities and stated goals of an organization you belong to. 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:58.880 So to satisfy the basic elements of this charge, they 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.840 have to be able to prove that the organization exists, 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:05.120 that it advocates for overthrowing the government or interfering with 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:09.000 people's civil rights, and that a particular guy really was 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:14.480 a member. And that's actually a lot harder than it 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:20.760 might sound. Some white supremacist organizations really do exist on paper, 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.000 So groups like the now defunct Identity Europa are actual 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:30.000 corporate entities. Identity Europa even had tax exempt status with 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:34.600 the IRS. There were written applications for membership, a multi 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:39.320 step interview process to approve an application they collected member dues, 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.880 they put those dues in a bank account, and they 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:46.240 filed annual paperwork with the IRS and the State of California. 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.960 So that's very clearly a membership organization, and you can 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:54.360 theoretically prove on paper that someone applied or paid dues. 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.840 The Traditionalist Worker Party, the also now defunct neo Nazi 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:02.040 organization that was once by Matthew Heinbach, not only incorporated 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:06.480 as a nonprofit, but they registered as a political party 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:10.360 with the Federal Election Commission. When the group came to 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:13.920 Charlottesville in twenty seventeen to beat my neighbors in the streets, 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:18.720 they expensed their lodging to the party. The helmets they 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.680 were wearing with their matching black uniforms were purchased from 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.920 a company that makes workplace safety supplies and expensed to 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:31.080 the party as rally materials. It's all right there on 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:36.520 their quarterly finance reports filed with the federal government. Vanguard America, 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.360 the group that Patriot Front grew out of, did have 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.560 corporate filings that you can look to and say, yes, 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:46.240 this is an organization that exists. But when they were 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:48.560 sued for their involvement in the United the right rally, 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:52.160 they claimed they were unable to produce any membership records, 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:57.280 and these days a lot of groups aren't very formal 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.760 at all, in large part because they feel like creating 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:04.400 these kinds of records only means those records will exist 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:09.639 when a subpoena shows up. So organizations like Patriot Front, 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:15.359 for example, don't really exist on paper. There's no LLC, 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.560 there's no registered agent you can serve papers on, there's 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:23.439 no business checking account where member dues are deposited. But 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:27.280 they do have a clear leader and organizational structure, and 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.600 multiple courts have ruled that Patriot Front exist as an 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.240 entity and a sufficient enough fashion to be sued as one, 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:39.440 as evidenced by their mountain of lawsuits. A prosecutor could 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:43.680 relatively confidently point to things like purchases made of patches 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:47.160 and stickers and shirts and other Patriot Front branded materials, 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:51.119 or produce messages in group chats about membership vetting and 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:54.679 group activities, or dig up concrete evidence of things like 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:58.680 the purchase of airline tickets or vehicle rentals for attending 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:02.119 group events, or look at footage of a particular person 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:04.800 marching in formation and uniform with the group and say 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:07.600 this is clearly someone who is a member of a group. 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.120 But groups like Adam Waffen are even more gray. They 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.840 don't sell branded merch. They aren't getting together in huge 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:20.600 groups wearing matching outfits. They operate quietly in the dark 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:26.560 in small cells. The line between group member and just 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.960 a guy sharing an ideology with another equally shitty guy 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:37.000 quickly blurs and disappears. And then there's the problem of timing. 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:39.440 In order for a charge like this to stick, you 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:41.920 have to be able to pinpoint the moment a man 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:45.600 joined a clandestine organization, and that moment had to be 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:48.720 before he signed his name at the bottom of that form. 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:53.320 There are military regulations prohibiting membership and extremist organizations, But 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.480 if he joined that organization after enlisting, that's some military 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.639 discipline issue, not a federal crime. And it's kind of 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.680 a mixed bag. Plenty of guys joined the military already radicalized. 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:07.399 They know they want to start a race war, and 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:09.320 they feel like the military is a great place to 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:13.399 get the skills they'll need. But white supremacist groups also 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.919 see young military men as ideal candidates for recruitment and 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:20.560 target them specifically. So maybe they were telling the truth 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.680 when they enlisted, but they joined a hate group after 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.399 they got there. If you listened to the episode a 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:28.639 few weeks back about the gun trafficking ring out of 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:31.320 Camp La June, you probably remember that only one of 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.639 those Marines had terrorism in mind when he enlisted, but 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.199 he recruited a bunch of his fellow Marines into the 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:41.639 cell once he got there. And back to the issue 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:45.480 of these organizations being so informal. You can't subpoena a 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:49.160 membership list that doesn't exist. But to bring this kind 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:51.240 of charge, you need to be able to prove that 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.080 he was an active member of the organization on the 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:59.480 date the form was signed. Sometimes that's obvious. Brandon Russell 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:01.919 from a few episodes ago, the founder of Adam Woffen, 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.359 who's back in prison awaiting trial for conspiracy to destroy 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:10.000 critical infrastructure, He had absolutely already founded Adam Woffin before 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:13.199 he signed up for the Florida National Guard, or, in 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.280 the case of Ethan Melzer, a soldier convicted for leaking 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:20.399 classified troop movement information to a foreign terrorist organization with 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:22.840 the intent of having his own unit ambushed and killed, 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:26.240 he was already involved with the Order of Nine Angles 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.280 when he enlisted in the army as a member of 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:32.000 that neo Nazi Satanist cult. He joined the military as 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:36.200 part of what the group calls an insight role members 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:40.240 infiltrate organizations of all types, although frequently it's the military, 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:43.680 with the intent to gain training and experience in order 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:46.440 to provide cover for committing acts of violence, to identify 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.520 like minded individuals for recruitment, and ultimately to subvert the 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:53.800 group from within. We'll have to talk about that case 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.679 in particular another time, because it deserves more than a 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.520 passing mention, but it really highlights what I think is 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.600 the third reason you don't see this particular charge brought 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.920 against white supremacists in the military very often. By the 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:08.280 time it's obvious that he lied about being in a 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:12.919 violent white supremacist organization, we are, unfortunately talking about a 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:17.680 more serious situation than his paperwork. When it was time 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.560 to indict Ethan Melzer, prosecutors were looking at a potential 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:23.439 international incident in Turkey and the attempted murder of an 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:29.479 entire unit of US Army paratroopers, not paperwork. Liam Collins, 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:32.800 the ringleader of that gun trafficking Neo Nazi paramilitary group 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.440 was explicit about the fact that he joined the Marines 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:38.720 in order to learn the skills he thought he'd need 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:41.639 for the coming civil conflict that he hoped to provoke, 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:44.920 and there was clear evidence that he'd already started forming 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:48.120 the group prior to enlisting. The core members even met 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:50.199 up once in person the summer before he went off 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:55.640 to Paris Island. But legally speaking, at what point did 0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:59.320 that group of guys become an organization? Right? So when 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:01.959 they went camp that summer, was that loose collection of 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:08.680 guys already a formal enough membership organization hard to say. 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:11.960 Later in the case, there was some acknowledgment that one 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:15.199 of the co conspirators definitely did lie on his s 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:18.400 F eighty six. Jordan Duncan, one of the five men 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:21.680 convicted for their involvement in that gun trafficking scheme, had 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:24.880 left the Marines and gone to work for a military contractor, 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.600 so he'd actively been involved in this group for two 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.480 years when he filled out an s F eighty six 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:34.879 in twenty twenty to renew his top secret clearance, which 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:39.840 he successfully did. Transcripts of hearings in Duncan's case show 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:42.440 a handful of mentions of the fact that if he'd 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:46.159 been honest during that renewal process, his clearance would not 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:49.520 have been renewed. Another way of saying that he wasn't 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:53.399 honest would be to say that he lied, but he 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:56.680 was never charged with that, because what would it really 0:22:56.720 --> 0:22:59.600 add to that case to tack on this particular charge 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:02.680 when the prou secutor already had this mountain of evidence 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:07.600 about much more concrete criminal acts. Right Talking about lying 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:09.600 means you have to prove state of mind. You have 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:11.760 to prove you what did he know and when did 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:14.199 he know. It's it's a little bit more nebulous than 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.000 being able to say this is a gun that he 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:20.520 put in the mail. That's very concrete. So they just 0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:25.720 didn't need this. More often you'll see an extremist in 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:29.840 the military just get discharged quietly if they can help it, 0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:33.320 or coinciding with a more serious set of criminal charges. 0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:37.560 There was no press release when Tyler Diykes was discharged 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.600 from the Marine Corps under other than honorable conditions in 0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:44.679 twenty twenty three. His discharge only came into public knowledge 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:47.040 when I wrote it down in my little notebook at 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:49.320 a bond hearing a few months later after he was 0:23:49.400 --> 0:23:51.960