1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: Col Zo Media. It was a Sunday afternoon in January 2 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty four when the doorbell rang at a 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: journalists home in North Carolina. Jordan Green, a reporter who's 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: coverage of far right extremism at Raw Story I greatly admire, 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: had been working on a story about a neo Nazi 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: group called two to one nineteen, and they knew it. 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: This wasn't the first time the subjects of his work 8 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: had tried to threaten and intimidate him, and it wouldn't 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: be the last. But on that particular day, it was 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: just a pizza. It's sort of a juvenile thing to do, 11 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: and in any other context it's a harmless prank that 12 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: mostly just hurts the pizza delivery driver. It's happened to 13 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: me a couple of times, this mysterious pizza you didn't order. 14 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: You're just standing there with your front door open, confused 15 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: at first, before the realization washes over you. The delivery 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: driver or isn't at the wrong house. This isn't your pizza, 17 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: you know that, but it isn't your neighbor's pizza either. 18 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: It's a warning. Someone wants you to know. We see you, 19 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: we know where you are, We know where you think 20 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: you're safe, and we're thinking about you today. It's just 21 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: a pizza you didn't want, but we want you to 22 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: know the next time you hear something on your front porch, 23 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,919 Speaker 1: it could be something different. The next day, a photo 24 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: of Green standing on his front door appeared online, posted 25 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: by an extremist group. Someone had been outside, sitting in 26 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: their car snapping pictures with the telephoto lens when we 27 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: opened the door. But what the watcher didn't know is 28 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: that he was being watched too. Anti fascist researchers were 29 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: able to identify the owner of that vehicle as twenty 30 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: year old kai Liam Nicks, a soldier stationed at Fort 31 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: Liberty digging through mountains of leaked materials from the white 32 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: supremacist group Patriot Front. Researchers and journalists were able to 33 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: match Nicks to the pseudonymous posts made by a Patriot 34 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: Front recruiter using the name Patrick. When Nis was asked 35 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: by New Yorker reporter David Kirkpatrick if he had any 36 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: involvement with Patriot Front or with the group that had 37 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: been harassing Jordan Green, he denied it, saying that is 38 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 1: a hate group and you can't be in the military 39 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 1: and a hate group at the same time. And that's true, Well, 40 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: it's half true. The other half will have to wait 41 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: for a verdict because Nis was right that as a 42 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: specialist in the United States Army, he was not allowed 43 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: to be a member of Patriot Front. When he backed 44 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: out of a meeting with Kirkpatrick after that phone call, 45 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 1: the reporter called the Army. Nicks wouldn't be answering any 46 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: more of the reporter's phone calls. He'd been arrested, but 47 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: he wasn't arrested for pizza pranks. Who's arrested for lying? 48 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm Molly Conger and this is weird. Little guy kay 49 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: Nix was arrested in August of twenty twenty four and 50 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: charged with dealing firearms without a license, possession of stolen firearms, 51 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: and one more thing, which is the thing we're going 52 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: to be talking about today. It's something I think is 53 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: a little more interesting than a guy who can't be 54 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: bothered to buy his guns at the store like a 55 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: normal person. Guys like this getting arrested for having a 56 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: gun they shouldn't have are a dime a dozen. But 57 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: the other charge on the indictment is something a little 58 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: more unique. He was charged with making a materially false 59 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: statement to the United States Government. According to the indictment, 60 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: he falsely claimed, quote he had never been a member 61 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: of a group dedicated to the use of violence or 62 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: forced to overthrow the United States government, and which engaged 63 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: and activities to that end, And the statements and representations 64 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: were false because, as the defendant then and they're new, 65 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: he had been a member of a group dedicated to 66 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: the use of violence or forced to over the United 67 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: States government, and which engaged in activities to that end. 68 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: Which is kind of a mouthful, but what that boils 69 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: down to is actually a single checkbox on a one 70 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty six page form that hundreds of thousands 71 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,799 Speaker 1: of Americans fill out every year, the Standard Form eighty 72 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: six or SF eighty six for short. It's the basic 73 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: questionnaire you fill out as the starting point for a 74 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: background investigation for a security clearance. It's required when enlisting 75 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: in the military, and for many jobs with the federal 76 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: government or with private companies that work on government contracts. 77 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: It's pretty thorough, but most of the questions aren't really 78 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,239 Speaker 1: surprising stuff. You know your name, your date of birth, 79 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: everywhere you've lived for the last ten years, along with 80 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: contact information for a landlord or a neighbor who would 81 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,119 Speaker 1: remember you, everywhere you've worked for the last ten years, 82 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: and someone who would remember you from that job. The 83 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: form also requires you to provide information about all of 84 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: your immediate family members, where they live, where they work, 85 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: and how often you have contact with them. You have 86 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: to provide detailed information about any contacts you have with 87 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: foreign nationals, any business and property interests that you have, 88 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: particularly those outside of the United States, and any international 89 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: trips you've taken. I remember, years ago and another lifetime, 90 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,559 Speaker 1: practically getting contacted out of the blue by some dour 91 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: federal agent who needed to speak with me about a 92 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: girl I barely remembered. We'd had a couple of classes 93 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: together in college. We weren't close or anything, but one 94 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: summer when I was still in college, we were both 95 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: in Germany at the same time, and we spent an 96 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: afternoon together. I was visiting family friends. I think she 97 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: was doing some kind of summer program and internship or something. Honestly, 98 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,239 Speaker 1: I don't know, but this was the era of putting 99 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: your whole life on Facebook, and she saw that I 100 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: was in Germany and reached out about getting together and 101 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: catching up. And a few years after that fairly unmemorable afternoon, 102 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: she was getting a security clearance for some kind of 103 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: government job, and there I was sitting at a coffee 104 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: shop being asked if we'd ever had any conversations about 105 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: overthrowing the government of the United States. I was so 106 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: innocent then, I remember thinking, is that even a kind 107 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: of conversation people have? I think we went to a 108 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: beer hall. That was, of course, years before I found 109 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: out I had a gluten intolerance, and well before I 110 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: had a hard drive full of neo Nazi manifestos. It 111 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: was a different time. Come to think of it, maybe 112 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: they don't always talk to everyone you ever got a 113 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: beer with in Germany, and it maybe had something to 114 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: do with the afternoon. I spent in a holding cell 115 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: at the Munich airport later that summer after a slight 116 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: miscommunication with the German federal police. But that's neither here 117 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,559 Speaker 1: nor there. I got that sorted out. What I'm saying 118 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: is the form is very long, and it asks you 119 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: about everyone you've ever met and everywhere you've ever been, 120 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: and you can't lie, You really really can't lie. It's 121 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: not like lying on a job application or patting your 122 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: resume a little bit, where if you get found out, 123 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: maybe you get fired. This is not a matter of 124 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: professional ethics. We're not talking about you not getting the job. 125 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: We're talking about up to five years in federal prison, 126 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: because it is a federal crime to lie, even by 127 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: omission on that form or in any of the subsequent 128 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: interviews during the background investigation process. You don't have free 129 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,679 Speaker 1: speech in these conversations. You have to tell the truth, 130 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: and very deep in that form. After pages and pages 131 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: of tedious stuff like trying to find a phone number 132 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: for the landlord at your college apartment, you have to 133 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: check yes or no to question twenty nine point four, 134 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: have you ever been a member of an organization dedicated 135 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: to the use of violence or forced over the United 136 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: States cover and which engaged in activities to that end 137 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: with an awareness of the organization's indication to that end, 138 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: or with the specific intent to further such activities, And 139 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: then on the next page you check yes or no 140 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: again for question twenty nine point five, have you ever 141 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: been a member of an organization that advocates or practices 142 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: commission of acts of force or violence? To discourage others 143 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: from exercising their rights under the US Constitution or any 144 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: state of the United States with a specific intent to 145 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: further such action. Again, kind of a mouthful. And if 146 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: you check yes to either of those questions, you have 147 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: to provide the contact information for the hate group you 148 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: are in. But I'm not sure anyone ever checks yes. 149 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: If you've checked yes to either of those questions and 150 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: then successfully gotten a security clearance, I'd love to hear 151 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: from you, reach out. But think about the wording of 152 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: that question. Have you ever been a member of a 153 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: group that advocates for the use of force to discourage 154 00:08:54,480 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: others from exercising their rights? That's pretty broad White's miss 155 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: groups routinely engage in rhetoric about forcing the collapse of 156 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: the government, about making journalists afraid to write, making activists 157 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: afraid to protest, about making black people and Jewish people 158 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: and queer people afraid to walk down a public street 159 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: or enter a house of worship. And it's not just talk. 160 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 1: Plenty of these groups regularly engage in direct action to 161 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: actually achieve these goals. Patriot Fronts specifically, is currently being 162 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: sued in federal court in North Dakota Virginia and Massachusetts 163 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: for engaging in conspiracy to violate people's civil rights. So 164 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: this is not a hypothetical. This is already happening. But 165 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: Kai Nix checked the no box. The government contends that 166 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: he should not have. His attorney told The New York 167 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: Times that we should avoid rushing to judgment in this case, 168 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: and mister Nicks looks forward to making his presentation in court. 169 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: So we won't talk about Kai Nicks not today. He is, 170 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: as we all are when an ind comes down, innocent 171 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: until proven guilty. But the story got me thinking about 172 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: that charge about lying on your s f eighty six. 173 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: It's a concept I'm familiar with, but in the course 174 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: of my work, I've actually only seen it a few times. 175 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 1: So we can't talk about Kai. He'll have his day 176 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: in court. But we can look at the cases of 177 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: the handful of guys whose names I've jotted down over 178 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: the years, who caught checking no when they should have 179 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: checked yes when they were asked about their involvement in 180 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 1: trying to overthrow the government or systematically bilate civil rights. 181 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: Because for as many Nazi marines as I could rattle 182 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: off to you off the top of my head, I 183 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: can only think of four other cases where someone involved 184 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: in extremist activity was actually charged and convicted specifically for 185 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,839 Speaker 1: lying on an s F eighty six, And I think 186 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: there's as much to be learned by exploring the possible 187 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: reasons why we don't see this charge more often as 188 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: there is from looking at the cases where we do. 189 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: To be clear, I'm not saying it's vanishingly rare for 190 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: someone to get charged for lying on an s F 191 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: eighty six. It does happen, just not usually in the 192 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: kinds of cases I'm looking at in my work, So 193 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: if you ever find yourself filling one out, you should 194 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: probably tell the truth. Just a quick skim for charges 195 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: under this statute returned some fun hits. A guy in 196 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: Ohio failed to mention his checking account in a tie 197 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: bank when he was applying for a job at NASA. 198 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: He got a year of probation and a ten thousand 199 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: dollars fine. A congressional staffer got into some hot water 200 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 1: for leaving out his history of tax troubles. A former 201 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: Fox News guest commentator thought his long running lie about 202 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: having been in the CIA would be just as effective 203 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: when he applied for a security clearance as it was 204 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,959 Speaker 1: when he was lying to your parents on TV. A 205 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: couple of DEA agents were convicted for leaving out their 206 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: side hustle, which happened to be running a strip club 207 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: in New Jersey where a lot of people were buying 208 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: and selling drugs. So it does happen. People are getting 209 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: charged with this, but it mostly happens to government employees 210 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: who were not completely transparent about their foreign bank accounts 211 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: or trips to China. But if every person enlisting in 212 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: the military is filling out this form, if every guy 213 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: who makes it through the process and shows up at 214 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: basic training is checking no to both of those questions, 215 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: how are there so many white supremacists in the military 216 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: actually enforcing this one little paperwork technicality really coming down 217 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: hard on guys who said no when they should have 218 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,719 Speaker 1: said yes, I violate people's civil rights. Every weekend when 219 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: I get together with the boys, would go a long 220 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: way towards rooting out extremists in the military. If they 221 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: had good reason to believe they might catch a federal 222 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: felony for it, they might be less likely to take 223 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: that risk when enlisting. Because whether or not I personally 224 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: believe that justice system really has justice in mind all 225 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: the time, if you take them at their word. One 226 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: of the stated reasons for punishing individuals for crime is 227 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: the idea that seeing someone else get punished for a 228 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: particular crime, knowing that that possibilities on the table, will 229 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 1: deter others from committing the same crime. So if every 230 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: guy in a white supremacist street gang or an underground 231 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: Nazi terror cell had good reason to believe he would 232 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: get caught for this, if he knew he would get 233 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: caught trying to enlist to get free training on how 234 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,839 Speaker 1: to become a better killer, it might make it a 235 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: less attractive option. But the government doesn't really use this 236 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: particular tool very often. Some of the hesitation to bring 237 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: the charge is almost certainly just the simple fact that 238 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: no federal prosecutor will take a case he isn't one 239 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: hundred and ten percent sure he's going to win. Almost 240 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: every federal criminal case ends in a guilty plea. They 241 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: just don't file charges that they think you'll fight. And 242 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: there is a lot of gray area built in from 243 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: the start with this right. So what is an organization? 244 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: What is membership? It sounds silly, but like the interpretation 245 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: of the language here really matters in court, because they 246 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: can't prosecute you for an ideology. It's not illegal for 247 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: you to be racist. The problem is acting on those 248 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: feelings in an organized way to intentionally violate the rights 249 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: of others, and then lying about the language here is clear. 250 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: It's not about what you believe. The question is asking 251 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: if you're a member of an organization that does or 252 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: believes these things right. They're not asking what's in your heart. 253 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: It's asking you very specifically about your associations and the 254 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: activities and stated goals of an organization you belong to. 255 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: So to satisfy the basic elements of this charge, they 256 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: have to be able to prove that the organization exists, 257 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: that it advocates for overthrowing the government or interfering with 258 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: people's civil rights, and that a particular guy really was 259 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: a member. And that's actually a lot harder than it 260 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: might sound. Some white supremacist organizations really do exist on paper, 261 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: So groups like the now defunct Identity Europa are actual 262 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: corporate entities. Identity Europa even had tax exempt status with 263 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: the IRS. There were written applications for membership, a multi 264 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: step interview process to approve an application they collected member dues, 265 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: they put those dues in a bank account, and they 266 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: filed annual paperwork with the IRS and the State of California. 267 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: So that's very clearly a membership organization, and you can 268 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: theoretically prove on paper that someone applied or paid dues. 269 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: The Traditionalist Worker Party, the also now defunct neo Nazi 270 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: organization that was once by Matthew Heinbach, not only incorporated 271 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: as a nonprofit, but they registered as a political party 272 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: with the Federal Election Commission. When the group came to 273 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: Charlottesville in twenty seventeen to beat my neighbors in the streets, 274 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: they expensed their lodging to the party. The helmets they 275 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: were wearing with their matching black uniforms were purchased from 276 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: a company that makes workplace safety supplies and expensed to 277 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: the party as rally materials. It's all right there on 278 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: their quarterly finance reports filed with the federal government. Vanguard America, 279 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: the group that Patriot Front grew out of, did have 280 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: corporate filings that you can look to and say, yes, 281 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: this is an organization that exists. But when they were 282 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: sued for their involvement in the United the right rally, 283 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: they claimed they were unable to produce any membership records, 284 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: and these days a lot of groups aren't very formal 285 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: at all, in large part because they feel like creating 286 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: these kinds of records only means those records will exist 287 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: when a subpoena shows up. So organizations like Patriot Front, 288 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: for example, don't really exist on paper. There's no LLC, 289 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: there's no registered agent you can serve papers on, there's 290 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 1: no business checking account where member dues are deposited. But 291 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: they do have a clear leader and organizational structure, and 292 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: multiple courts have ruled that Patriot Front exist as an 293 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: entity and a sufficient enough fashion to be sued as one, 294 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: as evidenced by their mountain of lawsuits. A prosecutor could 295 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 1: relatively confidently point to things like purchases made of patches 296 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: and stickers and shirts and other Patriot Front branded materials, 297 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: or produce messages in group chats about membership vetting and 298 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: group activities, or dig up concrete evidence of things like 299 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: the purchase of airline tickets or vehicle rentals for attending 300 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: group events, or look at footage of a particular person 301 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: marching in formation and uniform with the group and say 302 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: this is clearly someone who is a member of a group. 303 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: But groups like Adam Waffen are even more gray. They 304 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: don't sell branded merch. They aren't getting together in huge 305 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: groups wearing matching outfits. They operate quietly in the dark 306 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: in small cells. The line between group member and just 307 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: a guy sharing an ideology with another equally shitty guy 308 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: quickly blurs and disappears. And then there's the problem of timing. 309 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: In order for a charge like this to stick, you 310 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: have to be able to pinpoint the moment a man 311 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: joined a clandestine organization, and that moment had to be 312 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: before he signed his name at the bottom of that form. 313 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: There are military regulations prohibiting membership and extremist organizations, But 314 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: if he joined that organization after enlisting, that's some military 315 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: discipline issue, not a federal crime. And it's kind of 316 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: a mixed bag. Plenty of guys joined the military already radicalized. 317 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: They know they want to start a race war, and 318 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: they feel like the military is a great place to 319 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: get the skills they'll need. But white supremacist groups also 320 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 1: see young military men as ideal candidates for recruitment and 321 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: target them specifically. So maybe they were telling the truth 322 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: when they enlisted, but they joined a hate group after 323 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: they got there. If you listened to the episode a 324 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: few weeks back about the gun trafficking ring out of 325 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: Camp La June, you probably remember that only one of 326 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 1: those Marines had terrorism in mind when he enlisted, but 327 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,199 Speaker 1: he recruited a bunch of his fellow Marines into the 328 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: cell once he got there. And back to the issue 329 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: of these organizations being so informal. You can't subpoena a 330 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: membership list that doesn't exist. But to bring this kind 331 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: of charge, you need to be able to prove that 332 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: he was an active member of the organization on the 333 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: date the form was signed. Sometimes that's obvious. Brandon Russell 334 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 1: from a few episodes ago, the founder of Adam Woffen, 335 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: who's back in prison awaiting trial for conspiracy to destroy 336 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: critical infrastructure, He had absolutely already founded Adam Woffin before 337 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: he signed up for the Florida National Guard, or, in 338 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: the case of Ethan Melzer, a soldier convicted for leaking 339 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: classified troop movement information to a foreign terrorist organization with 340 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: the intent of having his own unit ambushed and killed, 341 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: he was already involved with the Order of Nine Angles 342 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: when he enlisted in the army as a member of 343 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: that neo Nazi Satanist cult. He joined the military as 344 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: part of what the group calls an insight role members 345 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: infiltrate organizations of all types, although frequently it's the military, 346 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: with the intent to gain training and experience in order 347 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: to provide cover for committing acts of violence, to identify 348 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: like minded individuals for recruitment, and ultimately to subvert the 349 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: group from within. We'll have to talk about that case 350 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 1: in particular another time, because it deserves more than a 351 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: passing mention, but it really highlights what I think is 352 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: the third reason you don't see this particular charge brought 353 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: against white supremacists in the military very often. By the 354 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: time it's obvious that he lied about being in a 355 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: violent white supremacist organization, we are, unfortunately talking about a 356 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: more serious situation than his paperwork. When it was time 357 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: to indict Ethan Melzer, prosecutors were looking at a potential 358 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 1: international incident in Turkey and the attempted murder of an 359 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:29,479 Speaker 1: entire unit of US Army paratroopers, not paperwork. Liam Collins, 360 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: the ringleader of that gun trafficking Neo Nazi paramilitary group 361 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: was explicit about the fact that he joined the Marines 362 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: in order to learn the skills he thought he'd need 363 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: for the coming civil conflict that he hoped to provoke, 364 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: and there was clear evidence that he'd already started forming 365 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 1: the group prior to enlisting. The core members even met 366 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 1: up once in person the summer before he went off 367 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: to Paris Island. But legally speaking, at what point did 368 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: that group of guys become an organization? Right? So when 369 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,959 Speaker 1: they went camp that summer, was that loose collection of 370 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: guys already a formal enough membership organization hard to say. 371 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: Later in the case, there was some acknowledgment that one 372 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: of the co conspirators definitely did lie on his s 373 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 1: F eighty six. Jordan Duncan, one of the five men 374 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: convicted for their involvement in that gun trafficking scheme, had 375 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: left the Marines and gone to work for a military contractor, 376 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: so he'd actively been involved in this group for two 377 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: years when he filled out an s F eighty six 378 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty to renew his top secret clearance, which 379 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: he successfully did. Transcripts of hearings in Duncan's case show 380 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: a handful of mentions of the fact that if he'd 381 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: been honest during that renewal process, his clearance would not 382 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: have been renewed. Another way of saying that he wasn't 383 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: honest would be to say that he lied, but he 384 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: was never charged with that, because what would it really 385 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: add to that case to tack on this particular charge 386 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: when the prou secutor already had this mountain of evidence 387 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: about much more concrete criminal acts. Right Talking about lying 388 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: means you have to prove state of mind. You have 389 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: to prove you what did he know and when did 390 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 1: he know. It's it's a little bit more nebulous than 391 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: being able to say this is a gun that he 392 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: put in the mail. That's very concrete. So they just 393 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: didn't need this. More often you'll see an extremist in 394 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: the military just get discharged quietly if they can help it, 395 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: or coinciding with a more serious set of criminal charges. 396 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: There was no press release when Tyler Diykes was discharged 397 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: from the Marine Corps under other than honorable conditions in 398 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. His discharge only came into public knowledge 399 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: when I wrote it down in my little notebook at 400 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: a bond hearing a few months later after he was 401 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: arrested for his participation in the twenty seventeen Unite the 402 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: Right rally. He had enlisted in the Marines after attending 403 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: that Nazi rally, and was an active duty Marine when 404 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: he entered the kap on January sixth, twenty twenty one. 405 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: He is currently serving a fifty seven month sentence for 406 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: assaulting police officers during the January six riots. Matthew Bellinger 407 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: was discharged from the Marines in twenty twenty one, specifically 408 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: for his involvement in extremist activity, but that didn't become 409 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: public knowledge until he was arrested a year later for 410 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: a scheme involving paying a New York City police officer 411 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: to make straw purchases of guns Bellinger couldn't himself legally buy. 412 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: Documents filed in that case show that Bellinger was already 413 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: deeply involved in an Adam Waffen adjacent neo Nazi group 414 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: when he joined the Marines. The group was called rape Krieg, 415 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 1: named for its core belief that sexual violence is a 416 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: powerful tool to control and terrify your enemies, but also 417 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: a useful tool to increase the production of white babies. 418 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: To populate the coming Ethno state. Prior to his enlistment, 419 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: Bellinger and other Rape Creek members had conducted surveillance of 420 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: a synagogue they hoped to shoot up or burned down. 421 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: Though he was never charged with lying on his security 422 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: clearance application, I can't imagine he was transparent about his 423 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: weakened hobby of plotting synagogue shootings with his cadre of 424 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: Nazi pals who thought they could rape their way into 425 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: a white utopia. Vasilio's Pistols, another now former Marine, was 426 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: convicted at his court martial for making false statements. He 427 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: got twenty eight days in the brig and was discharged 428 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 1: from the Corps upon his release, but never faced any 429 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 1: charges in the civilian justice system, though he presumably did 430 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: not disclose to the Marine Corps recruiter that he was 431 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 1: affiliated with Adam Woffen. So if there's no interest at 432 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: the Department of Justice to charge any of those men 433 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: with failing to disclose their hate group affiliations on their 434 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: s F eighty six, who does get charged with it 435 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: and why? Well, the short answer is, there's not actually 436 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: any way for me to answer that question. I don't 437 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: have any secret insight into the charging decisions made by 438 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: federal prosps comuters. But I can at least walk you 439 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: through the reasoning behind the wild guessis I'm about to 440 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: make about the four cases I do have where a 441 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: guy in Haye group taught this charge. Two former members 442 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: of the group Vanguard America have been convicted for failing 443 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: to disclose that information when applying for security clearances to 444 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: work civilian jobs. Again, you have to fill out the 445 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: s F eighty six for any security clearance, and clearance 446 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: is sometimes required for civilian jobs. Decca Ramsey had been 447 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: a member of both Vanguard America and a group called 448 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: Aryan Underground, but failed to mention either group when he 449 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: successfully applied for a security clearance needed for an engineering 450 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 1: job at a defense contracting company. He resigned the position 451 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: before the charge was even filed. The investigation seems to 452 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: have tipped him off that it was coming and he 453 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: planned to plead guilty. This one, to be honest, is 454 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: a bit of a mystery to me. Even after more 455 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: time than I should have spent digging, I found a 456 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: handful of photos of Ramsay at anti emigration rallies in 457 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: Huntington Beach in the summer of twenty seventeen, but the 458 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 1: extent of his involvement with Vanguard America remains elusive to me. 459 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: The case was resolved so quickly that the government never 460 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: had to put any evidence on the record. It's possible 461 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: the government came across Decor Ramsay in the course of 462 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: another investigation into some other member of Vanguard America, but 463 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 1: he wasn't charged with anything else, and he appears to 464 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: have been telling the truth when he said he was 465 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: done with that kind of stuff. His quick cooperation and 466 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: voluntary discontinued involvement with the groups closed the case pretty quickly. 467 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: He walked away with a felony record but no jail time. 468 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: Fred Arena, on the other hand, has a very visible 469 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: record of involvement in the movement, and it is abundantly 470 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: clear why he was charged for lying about it repeatedly. 471 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: He too, lied about being a member of Van Gardemer 472 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: when applying for a security clearance for his civilian job. 473 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: He was working at the Navy yard in Philadelphia. And look, 474 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 1: maybe it's unfair for me to say this, but this 475 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: is a very stupid man. That's unkind. I don't know Fred, 476 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: but looking at the timeline of this case, you can 477 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: only conclude that he only ended up doing prison time 478 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: because he actively chose to make the worst possible choice 479 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 1: at every turn. After the abysmal failure of the Unite 480 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 1: the Right rally in Charlottesville in twenty seventeen, its primary organizer, 481 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: Jason Kessler, was determined to redeem himself by organizing a 482 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: Unite the Right two in twenty eighteen. You probably remember 483 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: that the twenty seventeen rally ended in the declaration of 484 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: a state of emergency, causing the rally goers to be 485 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: cleared from the park before it even really started. A 486 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: few hours later, one of those attendees drove his car 487 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: through a crowd, killing Heather Hire. Kessler and the other 488 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: organizers of the rally were sued by survivors of that attack, 489 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: and by the time Kessler was trying to organize the 490 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: sequel didn't have many friends anymore. He got a permit 491 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: from the National Park Service to hold the twenty eighteen 492 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: event in Lafayette Park, just outside the White House. But 493 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: he's not really a logistics guy, and unlike the year before, 494 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: where the rally had been planned by a broad coalition 495 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: of white nationalist groups and hundreds of eager attendees joined 496 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: a discord server to help coordinate transportation and lodging and supplies. 497 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: This time, Kessler was trying to organize the rally in 498 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,719 Speaker 1: a Facebook group chat with just nineteen supporters, and at 499 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: least one of those people was an infiltrator who leaked 500 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: the entire chat to Unicorn Ray. When that leaked chatlog 501 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: was published on June twenty eighth, twenty eighteen, just six 502 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: weeks before the rally was scheduled to happen, Fred Arena 503 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: was identified as the participant in the chat, using the 504 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: name McCormick Foley. And while Kessler was desperate to prove 505 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: he could thread the needle holding a rally attended by 506 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: the kind of people who agreed with him politically, but 507 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: one that would not devolve into the kind of violence 508 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: that that politics inevitably leads to, Fred Arena was the 509 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: guy in the chat proving that that's just not possible. 510 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: From the very beginning, he was upset that Kessler was 511 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: considering inviting speakers like Hotep, Jesus and Jovi Val speakers 512 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: who are not white. Arena wrote that he understood why 513 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: such a decision might be made by his fellow white nationalists, 514 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: acknowledging Kessler's assurance that even these non white speakers would 515 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: be speaking for a pro white cause, but Arena said 516 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: that it was quote a little bit different for me, 517 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: being a neo Nazi, to accept. He even threatened to 518 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: back out of the rally altogether because all this talk 519 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: of recruiting non white speakers for the sake of optics 520 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: felt like Jewish influence to him, and on the subject 521 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: of whether or not they're planning chats could possibly be 522 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: infiltrated or monitored by anti fascists or law enforcement, Arena 523 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: repeatedly and energetically offered to fight either kind of opponent 524 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: to the death, even offering to pay their travel costs 525 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: to come to him for the speed down. His membership 526 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: in Vanguard America and his eagerness to engage in physical 527 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: violence got him invited to a private chat organized by 528 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: David Rother to discuss how they could handle physical security 529 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: at the rally. Arena told Rother he'd be able to 530 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: bring some of his own guys, describing them as paramilitary 531 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: and neo Nazi, but the two quickly fell into bickering 532 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: about Arena's inability to stop posting things that would get 533 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: them all in trouble. For what it's worth, Dave Rother 534 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: didn't really need anyone's help getting into trouble. He's currently 535 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: in jail awaiting trial on charges of driving while intoxicated, 536 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: leaving the scene of an accident, and assaulting a police officer, 537 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: and he was probably a little antsy about Arena's talk 538 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: of paramilitary activity, given that he was on probation at 539 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: the time for one of these several felonies he already 540 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: had under his belt. All that to say, when federal 541 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: agents showed up at the Navy Yard to speak with 542 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: Fred Aerina on August first, twenty eighteen, less than two 543 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: weeks before that rally was set to take place, they'd 544 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: already read all of that. They had already read Arena's 545 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: posts about being a member of Vanguard America, about self 546 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: identifying as a neo Nazi, about his connections to groups 547 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: like the Hammer Skins. They had already looked at the 548 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: photos that he'd been posting of himself with his many guns, 549 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: one of which was captioned coming soon to a synagogue 550 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: near you. And they'd already seen the posts he was 551 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: making about hanging white women who sleep with black men 552 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: and his selfies where he's brandishing a knife and threatening Muslims. 553 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: But on August verse twenty eighteen, Fred Arena hadn't really 554 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,959 Speaker 1: broken the law yet. He was saying some really troubling stuff. 555 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: He was giving off heavy signals that he was very 556 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: interested in breaking the law, but he hadn't. With this 557 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: rally coming up, some FBI agents just wanted to talk 558 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: to him. Nobody wanted to repeat of the rally the 559 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: year before, and if this was the guy who had 560 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,239 Speaker 1: appointed himself to head of security for an event that 561 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: would be taking place across the street from the White House, 562 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,959 Speaker 1: they just wanted to talk. And here's the thing. So 563 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: this episode is about lying on an s F eighty 564 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: sixth form and he is going to end up doing that. 565 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: But that same statute also makes it a crime to 566 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: lie to an FBI agent. So when they showed up 567 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: in August of twenty eighteen and said, hey, Fred, are 568 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: you a member of Vanguard America and he said no, 569 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: he was already committing one of the five counts of 570 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: lying that he would be eventually convicted of. But I 571 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: guess since nothing came of it at the time, he 572 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: figured it was fine. He couldn't keep lying that twenty 573 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: eighteen rally was an embarrassing failure for everyone involved. But 574 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: nobody died at Unite the Right too, so we can 575 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: skip over the silly little antics of a couple of 576 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 1: washed up white nationalists trying to figure out how to 577 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: ride the Metro. A few months later, in January of 578 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, Fred Arena had to fill out an application 579 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,919 Speaker 1: for a security clearance. He'd been working at the Navy 580 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: Yard for two years already, but he hadn't needed a 581 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: clearance before, and now he did. And when he filled 582 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: out that form, he checked the no box for that 583 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,919 Speaker 1: question we were talking about earlier. Are you a member 584 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: of a group that has used or advocated the use 585 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: of force or violence to prevent others from exercising their 586 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: constitutional rights, etc. He said no, and he should have 587 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 1: said yes. And a few months later, when FBI agents 588 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: came back to talk to him again in May of 589 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, they asked him the same question and he 590 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: gave the same answer. No, he'd never been a member 591 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: of Vanguard America. But they knew that wasn't true, and 592 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: he knew that wasn't true, and they reminded him very 593 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: explicitly in that interview that it would be illegal for 594 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 1: him to not tell the truth. So a few months later, 595 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: he was indicted on five counts of giving false statements, 596 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: one for lying to the agents the first time they 597 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: came to talk to him, two for lying on the 598 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: clearance application, and two for telling the same lies again 599 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 1: when they came back to ask him about his answers 600 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: on the form in person. He was sentenced to six 601 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: months with two years of supervised release. As always, we 602 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,720 Speaker 1: can really only guess exactly why they sent an agent 603 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: back out to talk to fred Arena the second time, 604 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: but I'm going to guess that's my prerogative, and I 605 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: think it's possible he could have avoided that second visit 606 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: and the subsequent indictment and federal prison time if he 607 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 1: had just chilled out a little. It seems like Frederina 608 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: believed that Jason Kessler was responsible for him being on 609 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: the FBI's radar at all. The names are redacted, but 610 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: when the government moved to keep Arena in custody after 611 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: his arrest, they produced chat logs showing that in early 612 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, fred Arena was furious with someone, someone who 613 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: lived in Charlottesville, someone who wanted to invite non white 614 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: speakers to that rally in August of twenty eighteen, someone 615 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: who was working on a book about organizing the Unite 616 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: the Right rally, someone who could really only be Jason Kessler. 617 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: Redactions are not And in January of twenty nineteen, Arena 618 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: wrote in that Facebook chat quote, that's what got the 619 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: FED so scared because they thought we were going to 620 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: kill him. Arena claimed that he had gone as far 621 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,320 Speaker 1: as to drive down here to Charlottesville and ask around 622 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: at local stores, trying to figure out how to catch 623 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 1: his target out in public, trying to figure out where 624 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: he bought his groceries, where he went every day, and 625 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,280 Speaker 1: he boasted that after sending his subject photos that showed 626 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: he was in the area, the man quote went completely 627 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: bananas and spent two days hiding under his bed, and 628 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: in at least some of these online conversations where he's 629 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: bragging about his Nazi extracurriculars, he was talking to an 630 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: undercover FBI agent. The motion for detention also mentions a 631 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: woman whose initials are k S, who voluntarily spoke with 632 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 1: the FBI about threats she'd received from Arena. He used 633 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: a burner phone to text her that he was going 634 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: to cut her fucking throat. She told agents she thought 635 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 1: he was threatening her because he believed she'd been co 636 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: operating with the FBI. Similar threats were sent to a 637 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: man whose initials are d Are. Both sets of initials 638 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: are potential matches for two members of that planning chat 639 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: that he'd been having disagreements with in the lead up 640 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: to that first conversation with the FBI. So maybe Fred 641 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: Arena could have gotten away with fudging some paperwork if 642 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: the FBI hadn't been forced to look into whether a 643 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: couple of Nazis were going to kill each other over 644 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: an online beef. Hard to say. The other two cases 645 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 1: I have in mind when I think about lying on 646 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: your background check do actually have to do with military service. 647 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: But unlike Decca Ramsey and Fred Aerina, whose charges were 648 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,760 Speaker 1: explicitly related to their hate group membership, these two guys 649 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,919 Speaker 1: actually got caught lying about something kind of unrelated. These 650 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 1: cases are from my folder of guys where to my eye, 651 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: at least it looks like they ended up charged with 652 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: whatever a prosecutor could come up with because they just 653 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: needed to charge him with something because he looked like 654 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: he was going to be a part prob and if 655 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: they waited for that problem to develop, someone could already 656 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: be dead. Killian Ryan was discharged from the army on 657 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: August twenty sixth, twenty twenty two, the same day he 658 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 1: was arrested on federal charges for lying on his s 659 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: F eighty six. He'd been on active duty for a 660 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: little over two years and was stationed at Fort Liberty 661 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 1: back when it was still called Fort Bragg. He'd gotten 662 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: a DUI on base a month earlier, but that's not 663 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: what federal agents were there to talk to him about. 664 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: They wanted to talk to him about his father. When 665 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: Ryan filled out the s F eighty sixth form in 666 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 1: May of twenty twenty, he wrote that he had not 667 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: been in contact with his biological father for the last 668 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 1: ten years. The form did require him to list who 669 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,320 Speaker 1: his father was, but he chose to use the optional 670 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 1: comment block to explicitly state that he'd had no contact 671 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,319 Speaker 1: at all with his father, they hadn't spoken in at 672 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 1: least a decade, and that his father wasn't even listed 673 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: on his birth certificate. A lot of this was completely 674 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 1: optional information. He did not need to write this. He 675 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: chose to, and his father, Richard Dillard, does have a 676 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: criminal history, But there's no reason to believe Ryan would 677 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: have been denied his security clearance because his father was 678 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: a former drug user and had once stolen a car. 679 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: Having a few skeletons in your closet doesn't mean you 680 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,280 Speaker 1: can't get a security clearance. You just have to be honest, 681 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: and maybe they'll want to conduct a follow up interview 682 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: about something like that, sort of talk through the specifics 683 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: of the situation. But plenty of people whose dads have 684 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 1: stolen a car are in the military. This really shouldn't 685 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: have mattered at all. It's not the kind of thing 686 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: you get criminally charged over. But it's where they found 687 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 1: the proof that the problem arises, because the proof that 688 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:49,800 Speaker 1: he had lied about being in contact with his father 689 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: was on his father's Instagram, the Instagram account where his 690 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: father had posted a photo of them together at Ryan's 691 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: high school graduation, also that his father was involved in 692 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: racially motivated extremism. That Instagram account isn't visible anymore, but 693 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,439 Speaker 1: from other accounts I've been able to review, his dad 694 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: really loves posting racist stuff. Some Mussolini memes, some pro 695 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: Rhodesian content, a lot of sort of runic Viking type stuff, 696 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,240 Speaker 1: anti Semitic conspiracy theories, the stuff that I would expect 697 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,840 Speaker 1: to see from a gen X tattoo artist with an 698 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:30,319 Speaker 1: interest in esoteric Nazism. You know, nothing super special, that's 699 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: at least not that's publicly visible to me today, the 700 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: criminal complaint says. Further investigation into the father's social media 701 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: revealed that Ryan himself had several Instagram accounts that he 702 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: was not only using to communicate with his father, which 703 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,720 Speaker 1: again he lied about, but was also espousing some pretty 704 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 1: alarming ideological views of his own. On one of those accounts, 705 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 1: which he created using the Gmail address Nazi Ace fourteen 706 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 1: eighty eight. Not a great idea, Ryan posted quote, I 707 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,360 Speaker 1: serve for combat experience, so I'm more proficient in killing 708 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: en words. When the case was first filed, national security 709 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: lawyer Mark Zaide told Adam Ronsley for Rolling Stone that 710 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: this was a very unusual case. It's very rare to 711 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 1: see a case where the only criminal charge on the 712 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: indictment is giving a false statement on an s F 713 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: eighty six. Zaide told Ronsley, I get cases all the 714 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,800 Speaker 1: time where people are accused of lying on the form, 715 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: they lose their security clearance or get fired, but they 716 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: don't get prosecuted. One of two things happened. Either the 717 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: government is taking a much stronger position on racist, white 718 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,280 Speaker 1: nationalist extremists if they find them within the US government, 719 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:52,239 Speaker 1: or something else happened where this individual really aggravated somebody personally. 720 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: I think that's an interesting quote, right. This attorney is 721 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 1: acknowledging that, you know, maybe he was just a personal 722 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 1: problem for someone. And I'm not an attorney or an 723 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 1: expert on security clearances, but I think he's onto something there. 724 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: I don't know that this truly signaled a policy shift 725 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 1: from the DoD, but something triggered an investigation here. Lloyd 726 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,759 Speaker 1: Austin had taken office as Secretary of Defense just the 727 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,439 Speaker 1: year prior to this, and he'd vowed to make rooting 728 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,759 Speaker 1: out extremists in the military a higher priority, particularly after 729 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 1: so many service members were arrested for participating in the 730 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:33,839 Speaker 1: January sixth riot. Just a few months before Killing Ryan's arrest, 731 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: the Pentagon had issued new guidance about tackling this problem. 732 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 1: Official said under the new guidance, the military won't actively 733 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 1: screen service members social media accounts, But if there is 734 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 1: an investigation into an extremist incident, social media posts may 735 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:54,719 Speaker 1: become part of that investigation. So it's possible that what 736 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 1: happened here is that there was some kind of underlying 737 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,759 Speaker 1: incident that led to Ryan's social media coming under scrutiny, 738 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 1: which led officials to seeing his posts about wanting to 739 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: kill black people, which led them to need a reason 740 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 1: to take some kind of action because we have this 741 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,799 Speaker 1: problem here again, was he a member of an organization? 742 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:20,440 Speaker 1: Hard to say were any of those concerning posts actively illegal? 743 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,919 Speaker 1: I assume not, since that's not what he was charged with. 744 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: There is a single, tantalizing, mysterious little line in the indictment. 745 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,640 Speaker 1: While the criminal complaint focuses exclusively on his communications with 746 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: his father, which he lied about when the actual indictment 747 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:42,160 Speaker 1: came down, it includes a single mention of a second 748 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: lie that he failed to disclose significant contact over social 749 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:51,279 Speaker 1: media with a foreign national. There's nothing more about it. 750 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,799 Speaker 1: I wish they'd put on the record who or what 751 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,960 Speaker 1: that was. But ultimately, what this case looks like to 752 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 1: me is that somehow Killian Ryan's extremist ideologies came to 753 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,920 Speaker 1: the Army's attention, and they used an unusual tool to 754 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,480 Speaker 1: achieve the desired result, which was a felony conviction and 755 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:11,920 Speaker 1: his discharge from the service. Killy and Ryan entered a 756 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: guilty plea and was sentenced to three months in prison 757 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 1: and three years of supervised release. The government never offered 758 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:36,279 Speaker 1: any more information about this mysterious foreign national, and I 759 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,840 Speaker 1: feel better about only having four cases at hand to 760 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 1: offer as examples now that we've read that quote from 761 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:47,080 Speaker 1: Mark's aid. If an attorney who handles security clearance related 762 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: matters says that it's highly unusual to see a case 763 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: where this is the sole criminal charge, I'm less worried 764 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,400 Speaker 1: now that I've overlooked some huge cash of similar cases. 765 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,160 Speaker 1: I absolutely can see that there are others out there, 766 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:05,719 Speaker 1: but probably not very many. And this fourth case is, 767 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: to my eye at least a clear case of the 768 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 1: government looking at a guy and saying, we will invent 769 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: a reason to detain this man if we have to, 770 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: and stumbling onto an old s F eighty six with 771 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 1: a LYE on it out of pure luck. In the 772 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 1: summer of twenty nineteen, Ross Farka was arrested by local 773 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: police in Contra Costa County, California. After making some pretty 774 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:35,400 Speaker 1: alarming threats online under the username Adolph Hitler, he posted 775 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,600 Speaker 1: a series of statements in a chat room on Steam, 776 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,960 Speaker 1: a gaming website, about carrying out mass shootings at synagogues, 777 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: specifically referencing the po Way synagogue shooting that had just 778 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,799 Speaker 1: happened a few months earlier. He was charged in California 779 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,040 Speaker 1: with making criminal threats and unlawful possession of an assault weapon. 780 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,319 Speaker 1: The police kept the guns they found and a court 781 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,280 Speaker 1: order was issued that prohibited him from getting any more guns, 782 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,080 Speaker 1: but he was released on bond shortly after his arrest. 783 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 1: His release sparked outrage in the community, particularly among Jewish residents, 784 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: but he hadn't actually committed any acts of violence, and 785 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,600 Speaker 1: without access to a firearm, the judge felt he posed 786 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,439 Speaker 1: no imminent danger to the community. While he was out 787 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: on bond, he used an encrypted messaging service to communicate 788 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,280 Speaker 1: with another mass shooting enthusiast, and the pair were making 789 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:28,360 Speaker 1: plans to meet up to discuss it later that summer. 790 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,920 Speaker 1: He also filed paperwork with a county court in California 791 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 1: to try to fight the gun violence restraining order that 792 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,520 Speaker 1: was preventing him from possessing a firearm. He wanted those 793 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,799 Speaker 1: guns back, and he wanted to keep talking to other 794 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,920 Speaker 1: aspiring mass shooters. There was a lot of outrage about 795 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,879 Speaker 1: this whole situation for good reason, but he remained out 796 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,839 Speaker 1: on bond while he awaited trial most charges in California. 797 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,760 Speaker 1: So some federal prosecutor reached into his toolbox and pulled 798 00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:01,240 Speaker 1: out eighteen USC. One thousand and one A knowingly making 799 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,960 Speaker 1: false statements to a government agency. Because when Farca was 800 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,800 Speaker 1: originally arrested in June of twenty nineteen, his bedroom was searched. 801 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,320 Speaker 1: They found the AR fifteen style rifle that he was 802 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,879 Speaker 1: charged with possessing. They found thirteen rifle magazines, They found 803 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 1: a lot of Hitler paraphernalia, and they found paperwork related 804 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:25,799 Speaker 1: to Farca's twenty seventeen discharge from the US Army. The 805 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,000 Speaker 1: local cops in California collected the evidence recovered from the bedroom, 806 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:33,200 Speaker 1: but they were mostly focused on the guns, obviously, But 807 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:37,520 Speaker 1: for a federal prosecutor, that paperwork presented a new opportunity. 808 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,680 Speaker 1: In June of twenty seventeen, two years before that arrest, 809 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,640 Speaker 1: Ross Farka walked into a US Army recruiter's office in 810 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: Mountain View, California, and filled out a standard Form eighty six. 811 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,480 Speaker 1: He'd been obsessed with joining the army for years. He 812 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,839 Speaker 1: had repeatedly asked his psychiatrist and his case manager at 813 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,120 Speaker 1: the Regional Center of East Bay, a nonprofit contracted by 814 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 1: the state of California to coordinate services and support for 815 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,520 Speaker 1: adults with disabilities, about how to get off his medication 816 00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,520 Speaker 1: and get a letter of medical clearance so he could enlist. 817 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,840 Speaker 1: A psychiatrist told him on three occasions in twenty fourteen 818 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,799 Speaker 1: and twenty fifteen that she couldn't write him a letter 819 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,200 Speaker 1: of medical clearance because, in her professional opinion, he was 820 00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:24,279 Speaker 1: not mentally stable enough to serve in the military. After 821 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,840 Speaker 1: that third denial from his psychiatrist in twenty fifteen, he 822 00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,719 Speaker 1: wrote in a Facebook message, I will take violent action 823 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,120 Speaker 1: against the ZOG once I have military training and perferably 824 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,440 Speaker 1: some military combat experience to ensure I am steady under fire. 825 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,640 Speaker 1: My problem is I can't initiate that process immediately for 826 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:47,880 Speaker 1: some specific personal reasons. ZOG is an acronym for Zionist 827 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,719 Speaker 1: occupied government. It's a popular concept among white supremacists. They 828 00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,040 Speaker 1: believe the United States government is being controlled by Jewish 829 00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:59,360 Speaker 1: influence and his specific personal reasons for being unable to 830 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 1: enlist in the Middle Military to get the training he 831 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,000 Speaker 1: needed to become a better murderer were, of course, the 832 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,560 Speaker 1: caseworker and psychiatrist who refused to sign a letter saying 833 00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:12,000 Speaker 1: he was medically fit to serve. In twenty fifteen, his 834 00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,239 Speaker 1: case manager contacted the police after Farca's father reported to 835 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,880 Speaker 1: her that he was refusing to take his medication. She 836 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,120 Speaker 1: told the police she didn't think there was any immediate danger, 837 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:26,560 Speaker 1: but he quote fit the profile of a school shooter 838 00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:29,279 Speaker 1: and one of the police to at least conduct a 839 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:33,160 Speaker 1: welfare check at the family's home. So when he walked 840 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,400 Speaker 1: into that recruiter's office in twenty seventeen, he knew he 841 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:42,520 Speaker 1: couldn't tell the truth, so he lied. But unlike Deca, Ramsay, 842 00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,640 Speaker 1: and Frederina, who lied about meeting members of organized hate groups, 843 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: russ Barka didn't need to lie about that. It doesn't 844 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 1: look like he had any ties to a particular organization. 845 00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:58,160 Speaker 1: But he did lie about his medical history, indicating that 846 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,200 Speaker 1: he had not sought treatment for any mental or emotional 847 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,840 Speaker 1: condition in the prior seven years. Now having been to 848 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:10,160 Speaker 1: therapy doesn't by default disqualify you from service, but there 849 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,240 Speaker 1: would be some kind of follow up about the nature 850 00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,560 Speaker 1: of the issue and whether or not it was resolved, 851 00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,840 Speaker 1: and your current mental health, and that kind of follow 852 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,520 Speaker 1: up would definitely have led to a conversation with Farka's psychiatrist, 853 00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:26,000 Speaker 1: and that would have disqualified him for sure. So he 854 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:30,040 Speaker 1: said no, and within days of arriving at Fort Benning 855 00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:34,719 Speaker 1: for basic training, Farca attacked another soldier. He was held 856 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,919 Speaker 1: in a psychiatric facility for two weeks before being discharged 857 00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:42,799 Speaker 1: for erroneous enlistment, meaning they knew he lied about his 858 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,960 Speaker 1: medical fitness, but he wasn't charged with anything at the time. 859 00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:51,880 Speaker 1: They just sent him home. So fast forward to two 860 00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,839 Speaker 1: years later, it's twenty nineteen. He's out on bond, he's 861 00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,880 Speaker 1: trying to get his guns back, he's frightening the community, 862 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,920 Speaker 1: and in that box of evidence collected from his bedroom, 863 00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:08,040 Speaker 1: there's that discharge paperwork. The state of California can't hold 864 00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:10,759 Speaker 1: him on the criminal threats charges, but there's a lot 865 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,440 Speaker 1: of incentive here, a lot of pressure from the community 866 00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:18,080 Speaker 1: to get him back into custody. So in November of 867 00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,840 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, he was indicted on a federal charge for 868 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,359 Speaker 1: lying on that s F eighty six, and this time 869 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,759 Speaker 1: a federal judge says, there's no way we're letting this 870 00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,880 Speaker 1: man out of custody. So he was held in federal 871 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,440 Speaker 1: custody from November of twenty nineteen until May of twenty twenty. 872 00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:37,880 Speaker 1: He entered a guilty plea on the federal charge in 873 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,520 Speaker 1: April of twenty twenty and was sentenced to time served, 874 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,920 Speaker 1: which ended up being about six months, which is normal 875 00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,120 Speaker 1: for this kind of charge. He was still awaiting his 876 00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,759 Speaker 1: criminal trial in California, but he was back out on 877 00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:51,760 Speaker 1: bond for a few months in the summer of twenty 878 00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:56,759 Speaker 1: twenty before he was re arrested in October. In those 879 00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:58,920 Speaker 1: few months that he was out of custody, he refused 880 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:03,359 Speaker 1: to participate in the mandated computer monitoring program and cut 881 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:07,640 Speaker 1: off his ankle monitor. When his home was searched in October, 882 00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,800 Speaker 1: officers discovered that he had obtained a secret cell phone 883 00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:14,400 Speaker 1: in order to circumvent the monitoring software, and he had 884 00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,280 Speaker 1: been sending texts about things like carrying out a mass shooting. 885 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,640 Speaker 1: He was discussing child pornography, although it doesn't say he 886 00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,040 Speaker 1: actually had any it just said he was discussing it, 887 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,960 Speaker 1: and he was also having conversations about forming a militia. 888 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,680 Speaker 1: He also threatened to murder the police officer who was 889 00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:37,800 Speaker 1: conducting this search of his home, and this obviously resulted 890 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,560 Speaker 1: in that judge in California revoking his bond again, putting 891 00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:44,040 Speaker 1: him back in state custody. He was convicted on those 892 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,440 Speaker 1: state charges in twenty twenty one and sentenced to fifty 893 00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,440 Speaker 1: seven months, with time already served. He was released in 894 00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,640 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, but the state of California was done 895 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,040 Speaker 1: with him, but that doesn't mean he was home free. 896 00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,520 Speaker 1: He was immediately re arrested by federal authorities for violating 897 00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:02,360 Speaker 1: his release conditions back in twenty by refusing to cooperate 898 00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,120 Speaker 1: with the computer monitoring program, and when he threatened to 899 00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,720 Speaker 1: kill that police officer, that was a new criminal charge. 900 00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:10,840 Speaker 1: So he had violated those release conditions in twenty twenty 901 00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,719 Speaker 1: and so the federal government was just waiting for California 902 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:15,360 Speaker 1: to be done with him so then it could be 903 00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:19,120 Speaker 1: their turn again to put him back in federal prison. 904 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:23,160 Speaker 1: For those violations, he was sentenced to another six months, 905 00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,200 Speaker 1: and he was released earlier this year and remains on 906 00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:30,200 Speaker 1: probation with the State of California. So with all of 907 00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:33,920 Speaker 1: that said, now we have to ask ourselves who gets 908 00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,080 Speaker 1: charged with lying on their s F eighty six and 909 00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:43,440 Speaker 1: why who doesn't get charged and why don't they? And 910 00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,840 Speaker 1: I think the answer is that this charge, like most 911 00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:51,160 Speaker 1: criminal charges, if we're being honest, is a tool. It 912 00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,239 Speaker 1: is a tool that gets used when it is the 913 00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:58,279 Speaker 1: most useful tool available. You could pound in a nail 914 00:54:58,320 --> 00:54:59,879 Speaker 1: with the butt of a tape measure if you had 915 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:04,040 Speaker 1: but it's not the best tool for the job. So 916 00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:06,680 Speaker 1: charging Jordan Duncan or Brandon Russell with lying on their 917 00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:11,160 Speaker 1: security clearance application may have been possible, but better tools 918 00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,759 Speaker 1: were available. It was a lot more efficient to just 919 00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,680 Speaker 1: go with the gun stuff for Duncan and the plan 920 00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:20,080 Speaker 1: to blow stuff up for Russell. But when a soldier 921 00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:24,320 Speaker 1: is posting online about his ideological desire to murder black people, 922 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:29,239 Speaker 1: what tool did they have to arrest Killian Ryan? His 923 00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:34,279 Speaker 1: posts were alarming, but not really against the law. If 924 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,319 Speaker 1: a guy who wasn't fantasizing about mass murder had lied 925 00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,800 Speaker 1: about hanging out with his dad, the DOJ probably wouldn't 926 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,799 Speaker 1: get involved. But they had a problem, and there was 927 00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:49,120 Speaker 1: a tool in the toolbox to solve it. And that's 928 00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,440 Speaker 1: what I find so interesting about the Kai Knicks case. 929 00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:56,440 Speaker 1: It doesn't really look like they needed this tool. He 930 00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,640 Speaker 1: was charged with a couple of gun related crimes too. Well. 931 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:01,680 Speaker 1: Have to wait for the case to move along a 932 00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:03,719 Speaker 1: little bit to see exactly what they have here, but 933 00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,640 Speaker 1: it seems like the firearm charges probably would have been 934 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,480 Speaker 1: enough to accomplish their goal of getting Nicks out of 935 00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:15,080 Speaker 1: the army and into federal custody. Adding the charge relying 936 00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:19,239 Speaker 1: on his background check is unique, Like that attorney said 937 00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:24,120 Speaker 1: in the Killian Ryan case, It's unusual and potentially signals 938 00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,800 Speaker 1: that the government is taking a stronger position on keeping 939 00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:31,560 Speaker 1: white nationalists out of the armed forces. Obviously, one case 940 00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,920 Speaker 1: doesn't make a pattern, so I've got my eyes glued 941 00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,040 Speaker 1: to new federal violence. I wonder if we'll see a 942 00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:42,920 Speaker 1: real effort to address this problem, because, if it's not 943 00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:46,160 Speaker 1: already clear from the Sampler platter, a violent white supremacist 944 00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:49,160 Speaker 1: in the military I was teasing earlier in the episode, 945 00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:54,840 Speaker 1: America has a serious problem with weird little guys stealing 946 00:56:54,840 --> 00:57:00,240 Speaker 1: guns from the armory to try to start a race wall. 947 00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,600 Speaker 1: Weird little guys to production of cool Zone Media. For 948 00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:08,920 Speaker 1: more from cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonmedia dot com, 949 00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,680 Speaker 1: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app or wherever 950 00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:13,600 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.