WEBVTT - 19. New District Attorney Todd Spitzer Dethrones Twenty Year Incumbent. His Mission, To Clean Up Corruption in the Orange County Justice System. Welcome Back A Timely Roundtable With Guests, Scott Sanders, Paul Wilson and Scott Moxley. 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:07.360 Please be advised this story contains adult content and graphic language. 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:13.520 It's not justice at all to know that the respect 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:15.960 that I had for these guys and what I thought 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:18.280 they would produce for me and do for me, they 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:22.560 did the complete opposite, and they they made my pain worse. 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:27.640 And they continued to do that by not admitting what 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:42.640 they did and not just holding themselves accountable. Welcome to Sleuth. 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:47.800 I'm Linda Sawyer. We hope you recognize our effort throughout 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:51.239 this podcast to shine a light on just how justice 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:55.960 is dispensed and determined in Orange County, California. With the 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.480 checks and balances a platform like Sleuth has brought to 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:02.680 bear on this subject, there is now a new day 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:06.760 in town. On November six, the people of Orange County 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:10.680 spoke and voted in new d A Todd Spitzer, who 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:15.520 dethroned a twenty year incumbent in Tony Rococcus, Mr Spitzer one, 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:18.639 on a platform of cleaning up corruption in the Orange 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.399 County d A's office. With that, we have invited a 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:27.600 timely roundtable discussion welcoming back our trio of guests, which 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:33.320 include Wosniak defense counsel Scott Sanders, victim advocate Paul Wilson, 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:37.080 who lost his wife of twenty six years to Mr Sanders, 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.800 clients Got to Cry, and a thirty year award winning 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:47.440 veteran journalist Scott Moxley. Mr Moxley, through his weekly Moxley Confidential, 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:51.200 informs the public by consistently keeping an eye on the 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:55.120 political and legal maneuvering taking place in the Orange County 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:59.520 justice system. Welcome to Sleuth again, gentlemen, and thank you 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:03.560 for being here today. For this past season of Sleuth, 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:07.200 the focus has been on the Dan Wozniak case because 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:10.120 I believe Dan was not alone in committing the murders 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:13.640 of Sam Hair and Julie Kibuishi, and I've shared with 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:17.480 listeners my work in support of this theory. There are 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:20.760 others involved in these murders who should have been charged 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:25.800 as accomplices, but we're not due to perhaps political expediency, 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:29.000 with the d a's office seemingly consumed by a win 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:33.080 at all costs mentality, So the narratives seem to be 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.320 get the death penalty for Dan Wozniak, and the others 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:41.040 will simply be summed up as collateral damage. Therefore, I 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.080 wanted to invite all three of you, gentlemen, back to 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.560 the program today, so each of you can discuss some 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:51.040 of your concerning issues that your work has revealed regarding 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:54.600 the shortcomings of the Orange County justice system, not only 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:58.040 you covering them, Mr Moxley, but you experiencing them from 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.040 a personal standpoint as of the MS family member, and 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:05.320 of course Mr Sanders experiencing it as a as a 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.520 public defender in the county for over twenty six years. 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:13.240 So with that, let's talk about the election. We just 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:17.400 had an election and an incumbent of twenty years was 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:22.040 basically ousted. The people spoke and uh, I know that 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:25.360 you had a lot to say about it in your coverage, 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:27.800 So why don't we start with you, Mr Moxley. Sure, 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:30.600 as we film this or record this, it looks like 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:34.960 Mr Spitzer, the challenger, is up by forty votes and 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.400 which is a trouncing and particularly given the history of 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:43.520 the office. Racoccus one in June the first time and 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:47.720 has been openly seeking a six four year term and 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.040 I think entered into the year believing he would be 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:56.440 the next district attorney and was stunned that the voters 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:00.120 in the June primary wanted someone other than him, And 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:02.520 I think you could look at what the office did 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.680 in the following weeks leading up to the election and 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:09.360 wonder whether decisions were made in the interests of justice 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.480 or attempted to be made to an influence an election. 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:19.120 I'd like to know, Mr Sanders. I know that I've 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:22.720 heard that in fact, Mr Spitzer really was running on 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:26.599 it clean up the d a's office platform. Do you 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:30.159 feel like all your work and the informant scandal had 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:33.880 the results that you were looking for in this election? Well, 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:36.360 we weren't doing it for the election, first of all, 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.000 so it really wasn't part of the analysis. Never was 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.640 I ever doing work and going out there and LiTi 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.960 getting these issues thinking that Mr ra Caucus would would 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.400 be replaced. It's happened, and now we'll look forward to 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:53.200 see if Mr Spitzer brings in a new thinking about 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:56.520 how to deal with issues of misconduct, both within the 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.240 office and outside of it. So it's really in his 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.680 ball field. Now he can he can assuring a whole 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.080 new era that looks nothing like the one we've seen 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:07.880 for the last couple of decades. But on the campaign, 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.359 he was touting all your work and he was giving 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:13.120 you credit for what you uncovered. I don't know how 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.599 much he was directly recognizing our work, but I think 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:19.680 he was speaking to at least what the work had 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.560 done to show that there were problems that he believed 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:26.000 needed to be changed or responded to. So he's talked 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.640 a lot about it. It's been a big issue for him. 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:31.719 I think it was an issue that did move people, unquestionably. 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:33.839 I think it's just you know, and and the writing 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.880 people like Scott Mr Moxley covered it. How many articles 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:40.400 would be he wrote over a hundred, He's written over 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.240 a hundred and sixty. I know on the that's a 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.520 lot of articles on the informant. How many words is that? 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:48.160 Have you ever figured it out? I don't want to 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:51.120 really know, it's a lot. Mr Wilson, I know you 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:55.720 had firsthand experience and got involved with Mr Spitzer's campaign 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.599 to the point where you just spoke about your firsthand experience. 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.160 Why don't you tell my listeners about sure? Well, I'm 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:05.159 at Todd six years ago. Seven years ago. Todd gave 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:08.640 me a platform to speak. He was a lot of 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:13.280 victims rallies and it was instrumental in helping me heal. 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:15.800 At that time. I give thought a lot of credit 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.320 for that, and he was very kind to me, and 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.560 like I said, he gave me that that platform that 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:24.320 I very much needed at that time. And in context, 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.679 how how long ago was that? It's uh spent seven years? 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:30.880 So Todd reached out to me, and my first victims 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.920 rally would have been probably six months after Christie was 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.480 shot and killed in Seal Beach. I Scott to Cry 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:40.599 who was one of Mr Sander's clients. Correct, So Todd 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:44.520 is he ran on victims rights and and cleaning up 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.800 that office and everything I know about Todd, he's been 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.640 true to his words. So he's got a large clean up. 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:54.000 And so was there a commercial that you did with 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:56.560 him or what I did? I did do a commercial 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.920 for Todd. I wanted the voters to know the corre 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:04.040 option and the scandal that I experienced with Tony Rococcus 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:07.520 in that current District Attorney's office, and that's basically what 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.520 the commercial was about. Did you want to share with 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:14.200 listeners your experience when you did actually meet with Tony directly? 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:19.760 It's time with that When you said that you sat 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:21.840 down with Mr Roccoccus and you could tell that it 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:25.520 was his choice. Yeah, well, I had numerous meetings with 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:27.640 Tony over the course of six and a half years, 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:31.560 so many of those were face to face, and um, 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:35.840 they were very heated. What were they heated about? Well, 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:39.480 because I was contesting his decisions and what he was 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.640 doing and didn't agree with them, and we basically just 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:46.720 decided we didn't like each other. So definitely a different 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:50.600 experience than you had with Mr Spitzer. Completely different. But 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:52.960 but again, I mean, Toodd's giving me a platform to 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:56.200 speak on it as a victim, and Tony Roccoccus is 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:59.520 out there cheating and lying to me and doing things 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.680 that I don't agree with. So I held Tony accountable 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:04.400 and I knew he was lying and he was cheating, 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.520 and he didn't like that very much. Do you have 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:11.640 a sense, Mr Moxley, of your readers how they feel 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:15.760 about perhaps this new administration? Was it just time? I mean, 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:20.120 tell me, what, if anything, you're getting any feedback. The 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:24.520 Weekly's readership is twenty to forty market essentially, so it's 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:30.120 younger people, and they're always suspicious of law enforcement, particularly 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.240 political law enforcement. Let me go back to something about 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:37.040 how he won or how he ended up losing this contest, 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.400 I think you have to start the very beginning is 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:44.959 that Tony Corococcus abandoned his public oath. And without him 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.240 doing that repeatedly, nothing else would have fallen into play. 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.520 I wouldn't have written certain articles, uh Todd would have 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:55.120 been struggling in a way, but just repeatedly abandoning his oath. 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.079 And then give us an example of that, well, I 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.280 think in the in the in the Ry case, where 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:04.560 it was very evident by two thousand fourteen, and let 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.440 me just say for listeners, Scott to Cry was the 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.280 largest mass shooter in Orange County history, and one of 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.120 his victims was your wife, Mr Wilson. That's so the 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:17.960 key was in a place like Orange County, where there's 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:22.120 largely suburban juries who are not hesitant to vote for 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:25.400 the death penalty. This was considered a slam dunk death 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:30.920 penalty case. And yet they violated the defendants constitutional rights constantly. 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.840 They had records covered it up in light about it right, 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.840 and then they committed perjury. And in the process of that, 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.760 Tony could have gone the high road and ended the 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:44.679 cheating and fired the people on his staff who were 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:47.360 cheating and go after the deputies a committed perjury in 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.640 a death penalty case. He did none of that. So 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.119 that's the basic right there. In fact, even said they 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:55.880 didn't agree with Judge Goethe's ruling. Right. I mean, I 0:09:55.920 --> 0:10:00.120 remember the sheriff saying that she bloody overstepped himself. You 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.360 had a speaking engagement, I believe it was at a 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:08.600 competing tabloid, and you spoke with and she was there sheriff, 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:13.160 and they've they've she and Mr ra Caucus have repeatedly 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.320 talked about their frustration with what happened. I don't know 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:20.640 that people listening understand that we had a debate that 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.680 got spurred by an informant that was both on the 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:26.560 Wasnia case and the Decry case. And in the Decry 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.520 case we ended up writing a lengthy motion of five 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:33.640 page motion analyzing what we believed was a hidden informant program. 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:35.719 That's how it all came to pass because you had 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:39.439 both clients, so you all of a sudden saw things 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:43.600 happening in both cases that ultimately drew you into the 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:46.520 informant scandals. So the line of the Sheriff's department, District 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.800 Attorney's office is that this informant ended up in these 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.360 locations next to high profile defendants by accident. It was 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.240 just a coincident. You represented two of those high profiles 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:00.240 and that then Wosnia and Scott to Cry and Judge 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:04.720 Gouldals in the Decry case did some miraculous, really incredible things. 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.200 First of all, he told the D's office to turn 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:09.560 over materials they didn't want to turn over, and then 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.400 he allowed us to have hearings over three years in 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:16.559 which more and more evidence poured into the courtroom. Prosecutors 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:19.920 took the stand, which was very different in Judge Connolly's 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:24.360 courtroom because he wrote similar motions, but there was no hearings. Well, 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.600 they were just a decision was made, that's right, and 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.599 Judge Goltals moved over time. He first denied our recusal, 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.800 then looked at more evidence and granted it, then dismissed 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:37.280 the death penalty. Judge kindly didn't allow any hearing. And 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:40.320 by the way, what's kind of important is the Wosnia 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.360 case actually led to some of the most important evidence 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:46.320 in the Decry case. So, for example, when we lost 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.520 and Decry, we went and got records in the Wosniak case, 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:53.480 and those records with Judge Statler as a matter of fact. 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:55.880 He then ordered some records. I don't think he knew 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.640 what they were, but they were devastating to what witnesses 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:00.720 had said in the Decry case. He saw a similar 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:04.520 name coming up, Is that right? Similar names, informant names, 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.360 informant names, and evidence we had never seen before. An 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:10.840 evidence had contradicted what witnesses had said on the standover months, 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:16.400 and Mr Moxley was covering it like incredible, Yeah, yeah, incredible, 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:21.400 award winning incredible. And not to speak for Paul, but Paul, 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:26.319 who started as someone who couldn't have been more opposed 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.240 to what we were doing, I would say, was watching 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:33.960 you would had not a happy relationship, nothing, no cooperation. 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:38.120 It was very contankerous. First, he was rightfully angry. Right, 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.560 you were representing his wife's killer. This is the guy 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:45.000 that's defending the guy that part of your life away. 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.319 Changed my life. I was married for twenty six years, 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:50.280 three children, it's a sky changed the course of my life. 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.480 And here's the guy defending him. And how could you 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.160 not how could you not feel the way you felt? 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.240 But I also want to talk about the conversation stion 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:02.720 you had with the prosecutor. I think it was Dan Wagner. 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:05.240 You told me that you went right up to him 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:09.000 and and said, is are the things that Mr Sanders 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.959 saying in court about this informant scandal? Are they true? 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.400 What was that correct? I mean, when all of this 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:18.160 started coming out and we noticed that Judge Goethe's was 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:22.280 allowing this to go on and happen in the courtroom, 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:28.040 we would ask the public appropriate questions, and the Wagner's 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.240 answer was, that's just the public defender throwing up smoking 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:33.720 mirrors and trying to dance around this thing, and extended 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:37.720 out that's none of that's true. They're all lies, nothing 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:42.120 you need to worry about. So no ownership. No, he's 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:46.640 sitting there lying to families that are all murder victims 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.960 and he's lying to us. Was that the inciting incident 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:52.280 for you was that when it all turned was already 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:57.240 starting to turn. I think there was about about years two, 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:02.280 about two thousand fifth, maybe about two thousand fifteen, that 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:05.960 I started to see this thing unhinging and asking why 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:08.720 why is you know, this is a very simple case. 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.360 Why is the judge allowing all this? Common sense has 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.400 to tell you that there's a reason why. I mean, 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:18.560 this is a very good judge, and he's allowing it. 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:22.400 So something's not something's not sitting something legitimate about what 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:26.600 Mr Sanders is discussing. Your listeners should know that in 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:30.520 the early years of the case, the prosecutor's office went 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.960 out on a pr mission to blame Mr Sanders for 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:36.280 all the delays in the case, as they did in 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:39.840 Lasniak and as as it turned out, as which judge 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:42.680 was determined, it was actually the Sheriff's department and the 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.080 prosecutors that had delayed the whole time because they were 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:47.960 hiding stuff that should have come in along a lot earlier. 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.840 So they weren't they weren't submitting what the court was 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.680 asking for, coming up with all kinds of excuse. You've 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:56.320 can understand. I mean that when I talked about this, 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.400 sometimes on the defense side it can be difficult. This 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:02.040 is a case were ultimately, when we had marshaled all 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.920 the evidence and gone through everything and spending year study, 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:09.400 we owned the facts. When we walked into the courtroom, 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:13.080 we had documents that showed the movements of informants and 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.520 the concealment of it and how it wasn't coming forward 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:19.080 in cases, So you would be asking witnesses questions and 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:22.080 their answers would be ridiculous. And I remember at some 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:23.760 point Paul and I have talked about this. I would 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:27.200 look back at him, can you believe it? Kind of 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.480 a little bit like this is this is absurd and 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.400 kind of wanted to see his reaction. And I did 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.640 see the reaction. Again, that's before we were friendly. I mean, 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:41.680 we were still but it's starting to unravel. And he 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:46.520 notices that I'm noticing that it's unraveling, and he's like 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:50.320 watching an Abbot and Costello show. Absolutely and something that 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:53.360 two days after the shooting happened, we were all summoned 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.160 down to the d a's office and it brought us 0:15:56.160 --> 0:16:00.320 all upstairs and Tony's up there telling us what he's 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:01.840 going to do and how he's going to do it, 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:05.160 and the news media is assembling downstairs. It's a it's 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.600 a huge news comp of course, UM, and he says 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.400 to us, I don't want you guys exposed to the 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:14.200 media at this time. This is something that I'm going 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:17.480 to carry and I've I've got your backs and I'm 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.400 going to take care of you guys. And he did 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:25.080 anything but take care of us, and UM did you 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.640 feel like, right, then there was something funny that No. No, 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.440 I mean this is two days. This is my first 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:34.080 exposure to the system. Right, the system is gonna work 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:37.040 because we all wanted to labor, all Americans, and it's 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.080 the best system in the world. Never been in court, 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.240 never had any exposure to it. Here's the top law enforcement. 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:45.640 Certainly not to be there, you didn't want to be there. 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.360 I'm a hundred percent convinced that they're going to protect 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:51.640 is going to protect me, and they're gonna do what's right, 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.840 and the system is going to work exactly how it's 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:59.160 supposed to work for me. Did complete the complete opposite. 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:02.360 I think get people don't realize sometimes as they think, well, 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:09.160 if you uncover misconduct, it only helps defendants, like yeah, 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.520 but but all of this it's for society well and 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.200 also for victims. So the problem is if you're in 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:18.879 a death penalty case and twenty years later evidence that 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.800 comes forward that could have been available twenty years earlier, 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.960 that's when victims lives get unraveled again. So cheating doesn't 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.399 help on any side. And in reality, here, if they 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.480 would have played it straight from the beginning, they would 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.280 have gotten the death penalty. They would have had a 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:37.359 pretty good shot, not that I would have ever wanted it. 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:39.160 I would have always been opposed to it, but they 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.480 but they could have done it clean from the beginning. 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:44.880 And one of the great and terrible examples is that 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:48.280 we are years into this litigation, we are the D's 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:52.040 Office has been recused, and we discover a whole series 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.640 of records called a special Handling Log that basically said 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.400 that everything we had said way back in two thousand 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:02.480 in fourteen when we first filed the brief was accurate. 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.480 If they had turned that over when they were supposed to, 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:08.320 and they were required to, because in two thousand and 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.480 thirteen they had in order to turn over all of 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:14.280 these types of materials they refused. If they had done that, 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.359 Paul wouldn't have gone through this, none of it. It 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:19.320 would have all right there been out What would have 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:21.240 happened happened to tell us? I would have dealt with 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:23.639 all the informant issues right there. We would have understood 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:26.200 what was the scope of the litigation. We would have 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.920 realized it all there wouldn't have been But what would 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:30.960 have been the downside for the d A's Office to 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:33.919 admit all of that well, and let's let's say, you know, 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:37.320 some stuff D's office sometimes Sheriff's office. If the Sheriff's 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:39.520 office had admitted, why do you think they were afraid 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.520 to say, Okay, this happened. Let's move on. Because it's 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:47.520 devastating because because behind all this, unfortunately is years of concealment. 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:49.959 It's not just the Scott Decry case. So other cases 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:52.600 would have. Is that what you think, Mr Moxley? A 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:57.760 whole lot of Absolutely. In January two fourteen, when Matt 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.520 Murphy and Dan Waggoner in the homicide unit received Scott's 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:07.119 motion and to cry, I was with them and they 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.359 huddled around, and they looked through it and they told 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:12.960 me and they trusted me at this point. I trusted 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:16.119 them at that point. This is nothing. This is just 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:19.320 wild stuff. But I could see the look on some 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:23.640 of their faces of cringet, trepidation, and and so I 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.760 you know, it's a five page motion And I remember 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.080 on a Saturday going to a coffee shop thinking I'm 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.840 gonna I'm gonna speed read this puppy, and I get 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:36.119 like forty pages in. It's been like four hours because 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.600 it's so dense. That's how much hard work went into 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:43.159 that to that brief, and I'm talking about Mr Sanders, 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:46.560 the original brief, and I knew that I was. I 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:51.240 just it's not the first document that revealed the informant scandal, 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:55.280 and I knew this is gonna take me forever to 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:58.560 digest because there's so many and you didn't have any 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.680 real professional relationship with Mr Sanders at that point. I 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:04.280 watched him in him. I knew of him. I had 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:06.919 watched him in court um and in fact, some of 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:09.440 the people in the homicide unit had previously told me 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:11.000 good things. They thought he was a really good lawyer. 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:15.360 It's true. And so eventually, when I felt I got 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:18.439 a little bit more into it, I realized the issues 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.879 are way beyond me that he's discussing in terms of 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.639 all the informant games and the Sheriff's Department, the d 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:27.480 A that I requested a meeting, and we were hesitative 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.080 at each other because he'd read my coverage of the 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:32.800 Orange County District Office and a favorable that I've written 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:36.520 favorable stories about their homicide cases. So when we sat down, 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:38.800 we didn't know exactly where we were going to go. 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:42.240 All I wanted out of the meeting was one thing, 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:46.159 that that he would open up a channel that I 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.879 could ask him questions. That was it to start with 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:51.399 that he was worried whether he could trust a reporter 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:53.680 who was so close to everybody in the homicide unit. 0:20:53.720 --> 0:21:00.280 Thank goodness, you went first. I was second after that. 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:02.480 That's the article where he came with the cowboy hat 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:06.520 and the think oxide on his nose and you were 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:08.800 afraid of the sunshine at that. I never really had 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:13.080 any um communications with reporters. Maybe once in a while 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:15.520 somebody would ask me something, but this is really my 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:19.320 first time I've ever media, and you know, and it's 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:23.280 the most media don't say very nice things about your clients, 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:26.560 so I could understand you not. One of the one 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.160 of the remarkable things for me in terms of signals 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:31.760 was in the after maybe a week or two where 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:34.040 the d a's office had time to digest more about 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:36.240 what was in the in the brief, there was a 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:40.240 hearing in in No wazni At case with Murphy and 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:46.399 Matt was walking behind him at the pacing and standing 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:49.320 right behind him, and and I was sitting in there. 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:51.520 You hadn't seen that kind of behavior before. I hadn't 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:53.919 seen that from him that I could remember. But what 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:57.760 the difference was Scott swiveled around in the divince here 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:00.320 and just stared up at him. It wasn't frown or 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.000 just just he was digesting, like you could see he's 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:05.480 just take but he spun around. He wasn't afraid. He 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:07.879 wasn't afraid. And that was the signals, Like because one 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:10.160 of my pet peeve covering court for for so long 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:13.959 is I hate lazy lawyers, you know. And I was like, oh, 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.240 this guy's this guy is ready to fight, and he 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:20.399 wasn't over the top. It was just you hate lazy journalists. 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:24.400 I do, but I've seen so many. Matt is an 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:29.080 impressive courtroom figure, and I've seen many defense lawyers just 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:33.720 crumble around him. And for for Scott Sanders to spin 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:36.760 around and follow him like it's sick. I'm not afraid 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:38.600 of you. I'm not afraid of you on this and 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:40.720 it was it was a turning point for me that 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:43.520 I have to pay attention, I have to learn more, 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:47.800 and thankfully my company allowed me to drop covering other 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:50.399 things to spend more time kind of digesting this and 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:53.560 learning the issues. And they were tough at first. The 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:56.600 Messiah rules and when you can when the cops can 0:22:56.760 --> 0:22:58.439