1
00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:07,360
Speaker 1: Please be advised this story contains adult content and graphic language.

2
00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:13,520
Speaker 1: It's not justice at all to know that the respect

3
00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:15,960
Speaker 1: that I had for these guys and what I thought

4
00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,280
Speaker 1: they would produce for me and do for me, they

5
00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,560
Speaker 1: did the complete opposite, and they they made my pain worse.

6
00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,640
Speaker 1: And they continued to do that by not admitting what

7
00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:42,640
Speaker 1: they did and not just holding themselves accountable. Welcome to Sleuth.

8
00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,800
Speaker 1: I'm Linda Sawyer. We hope you recognize our effort throughout

9
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,239
Speaker 1: this podcast to shine a light on just how justice

10
00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,960
Speaker 1: is dispensed and determined in Orange County, California. With the

11
00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,480
Speaker 1: checks and balances a platform like Sleuth has brought to

12
00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,680
Speaker 1: bear on this subject, there is now a new day

13
00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,760
Speaker 1: in town. On November six, the people of Orange County

14
00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,680
Speaker 1: spoke and voted in new d A Todd Spitzer, who

15
00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,520
Speaker 1: dethroned a twenty year incumbent in Tony Rococcus, Mr Spitzer one,

16
00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,639
Speaker 1: on a platform of cleaning up corruption in the Orange

17
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,399
Speaker 1: County d A's office. With that, we have invited a

18
00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:27,600
Speaker 1: timely roundtable discussion welcoming back our trio of guests, which

19
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:33,320
Speaker 1: include Wosniak defense counsel Scott Sanders, victim advocate Paul Wilson,

20
00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,080
Speaker 1: who lost his wife of twenty six years to Mr Sanders,

21
00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,800
Speaker 1: clients Got to Cry, and a thirty year award winning

22
00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:47,440
Speaker 1: veteran journalist Scott Moxley. Mr Moxley, through his weekly Moxley Confidential,

23
00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,200
Speaker 1: informs the public by consistently keeping an eye on the

24
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,120
Speaker 1: political and legal maneuvering taking place in the Orange County

25
00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,520
Speaker 1: justice system. Welcome to Sleuth again, gentlemen, and thank you

26
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,560
Speaker 1: for being here today. For this past season of Sleuth,

27
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,200
Speaker 1: the focus has been on the Dan Wozniak case because

28
00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,120
Speaker 1: I believe Dan was not alone in committing the murders

29
00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,640
Speaker 1: of Sam Hair and Julie Kibuishi, and I've shared with

30
00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,480
Speaker 1: listeners my work in support of this theory. There are

31
00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,760
Speaker 1: others involved in these murders who should have been charged

32
00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:25,800
Speaker 1: as accomplices, but we're not due to perhaps political expediency,

33
00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,000
Speaker 1: with the d a's office seemingly consumed by a win

34
00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,080
Speaker 1: at all costs mentality, So the narratives seem to be

35
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,320
Speaker 1: get the death penalty for Dan Wozniak, and the others

36
00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:41,040
Speaker 1: will simply be summed up as collateral damage. Therefore, I

37
00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,080
Speaker 1: wanted to invite all three of you, gentlemen, back to

38
00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 1: the program today, so each of you can discuss some

39
00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,040
Speaker 1: of your concerning issues that your work has revealed regarding

40
00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,600
Speaker 1: the shortcomings of the Orange County justice system, not only

41
00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,040
Speaker 1: you covering them, Mr Moxley, but you experiencing them from

42
00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,040
Speaker 1: a personal standpoint as of the MS family member, and

43
00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,320
Speaker 1: of course Mr Sanders experiencing it as a as a

44
00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,520
Speaker 1: public defender in the county for over twenty six years.

45
00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,240
Speaker 1: So with that, let's talk about the election. We just

46
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:17,400
Speaker 1: had an election and an incumbent of twenty years was

47
00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:22,040
Speaker 1: basically ousted. The people spoke and uh, I know that

48
00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,360
Speaker 1: you had a lot to say about it in your coverage,

49
00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,800
Speaker 1: So why don't we start with you, Mr Moxley. Sure,

50
00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 1: as we film this or record this, it looks like

51
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,960
Speaker 1: Mr Spitzer, the challenger, is up by forty votes and

52
00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,400
Speaker 1: which is a trouncing and particularly given the history of

53
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,520
Speaker 1: the office. Racoccus one in June the first time and

54
00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,720
Speaker 1: has been openly seeking a six four year term and

55
00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,040
Speaker 1: I think entered into the year believing he would be

56
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:56,440
Speaker 1: the next district attorney and was stunned that the voters

57
00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,120
Speaker 1: in the June primary wanted someone other than him, And

58
00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,520
Speaker 1: I think you could look at what the office did

59
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,680
Speaker 1: in the following weeks leading up to the election and

60
00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,360
Speaker 1: wonder whether decisions were made in the interests of justice

61
00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,480
Speaker 1: or attempted to be made to an influence an election.

62
00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:19,120
Speaker 1: I'd like to know, Mr Sanders. I know that I've

63
00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,720
Speaker 1: heard that in fact, Mr Spitzer really was running on

64
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,599
Speaker 1: it clean up the d a's office platform. Do you

65
00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,159
Speaker 1: feel like all your work and the informant scandal had

66
00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,880
Speaker 1: the results that you were looking for in this election? Well,

67
00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,360
Speaker 1: we weren't doing it for the election, first of all,

68
00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,000
Speaker 1: so it really wasn't part of the analysis. Never was

69
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,640
Speaker 1: I ever doing work and going out there and LiTi

70
00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,960
Speaker 1: getting these issues thinking that Mr ra Caucus would would

71
00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,400
Speaker 1: be replaced. It's happened, and now we'll look forward to

72
00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:53,200
Speaker 1: see if Mr Spitzer brings in a new thinking about

73
00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,520
Speaker 1: how to deal with issues of misconduct, both within the

74
00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,240
Speaker 1: office and outside of it. So it's really in his

75
00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,680
Speaker 1: ball field. Now he can he can assuring a whole

76
00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,080
Speaker 1: new era that looks nothing like the one we've seen

77
00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,880
Speaker 1: for the last couple of decades. But on the campaign,

78
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,359
Speaker 1: he was touting all your work and he was giving

79
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,120
Speaker 1: you credit for what you uncovered. I don't know how

80
00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,599
Speaker 1: much he was directly recognizing our work, but I think

81
00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,680
Speaker 1: he was speaking to at least what the work had

82
00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,560
Speaker 1: done to show that there were problems that he believed

83
00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,000
Speaker 1: needed to be changed or responded to. So he's talked

84
00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,640
Speaker 1: a lot about it. It's been a big issue for him.

85
00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,719
Speaker 1: I think it was an issue that did move people, unquestionably.

86
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:33,839
Speaker 1: I think it's just you know, and and the writing

87
00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,880
Speaker 1: people like Scott Mr Moxley covered it. How many articles

88
00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,400
Speaker 1: would be he wrote over a hundred, He's written over

89
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,240
Speaker 1: a hundred and sixty. I know on the that's a

90
00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,520
Speaker 1: lot of articles on the informant. How many words is that?

91
00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,160
Speaker 1: Have you ever figured it out? I don't want to

92
00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,120
Speaker 1: really know, it's a lot. Mr Wilson, I know you

93
00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,720
Speaker 1: had firsthand experience and got involved with Mr Spitzer's campaign

94
00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,599
Speaker 1: to the point where you just spoke about your firsthand experience.

95
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,160
Speaker 1: Why don't you tell my listeners about sure? Well, I'm

96
00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,159
Speaker 1: at Todd six years ago. Seven years ago. Todd gave

97
00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,640
Speaker 1: me a platform to speak. He was a lot of

98
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:13,280
Speaker 1: victims rallies and it was instrumental in helping me heal.

99
00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,800
Speaker 1: At that time. I give thought a lot of credit

100
00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,320
Speaker 1: for that, and he was very kind to me, and

101
00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,560
Speaker 1: like I said, he gave me that that platform that

102
00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,320
Speaker 1: I very much needed at that time. And in context,

103
00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,679
Speaker 1: how how long ago was that? It's uh spent seven years?

104
00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,880
Speaker 1: So Todd reached out to me, and my first victims

105
00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,920
Speaker 1: rally would have been probably six months after Christie was

106
00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,480
Speaker 1: shot and killed in Seal Beach. I Scott to Cry

107
00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,599
Speaker 1: who was one of Mr Sander's clients. Correct, So Todd

108
00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,520
Speaker 1: is he ran on victims rights and and cleaning up

109
00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,800
Speaker 1: that office and everything I know about Todd, he's been

110
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,640
Speaker 1: true to his words. So he's got a large clean up.

111
00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,000
Speaker 1: And so was there a commercial that you did with

112
00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,560
Speaker 1: him or what I did? I did do a commercial

113
00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,920
Speaker 1: for Todd. I wanted the voters to know the corre

114
00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,040
Speaker 1: option and the scandal that I experienced with Tony Rococcus

115
00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,520
Speaker 1: in that current District Attorney's office, and that's basically what

116
00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,520
Speaker 1: the commercial was about. Did you want to share with

117
00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,200
Speaker 1: listeners your experience when you did actually meet with Tony directly?

118
00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,760
Speaker 1: It's time with that When you said that you sat

119
00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,840
Speaker 1: down with Mr Roccoccus and you could tell that it

120
00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,520
Speaker 1: was his choice. Yeah, well, I had numerous meetings with

121
00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,640
Speaker 1: Tony over the course of six and a half years,

122
00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,560
Speaker 1: so many of those were face to face, and um,

123
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,840
Speaker 1: they were very heated. What were they heated about? Well,

124
00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,480
Speaker 1: because I was contesting his decisions and what he was

125
00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,640
Speaker 1: doing and didn't agree with them, and we basically just

126
00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,720
Speaker 1: decided we didn't like each other. So definitely a different

127
00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,600
Speaker 1: experience than you had with Mr Spitzer. Completely different. But

128
00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,960
Speaker 1: but again, I mean, Toodd's giving me a platform to

129
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,200
Speaker 1: speak on it as a victim, and Tony Roccoccus is

130
00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,520
Speaker 1: out there cheating and lying to me and doing things

131
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,680
Speaker 1: that I don't agree with. So I held Tony accountable

132
00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:04,400
Speaker 1: and I knew he was lying and he was cheating,

133
00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,520
Speaker 1: and he didn't like that very much. Do you have

134
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,640
Speaker 1: a sense, Mr Moxley, of your readers how they feel

135
00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,760
Speaker 1: about perhaps this new administration? Was it just time? I mean,

136
00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,120
Speaker 1: tell me, what, if anything, you're getting any feedback. The

137
00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,520
Speaker 1: Weekly's readership is twenty to forty market essentially, so it's

138
00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:30,120
Speaker 1: younger people, and they're always suspicious of law enforcement, particularly

139
00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,240
Speaker 1: political law enforcement. Let me go back to something about

140
00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,040
Speaker 1: how he won or how he ended up losing this contest,

141
00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,400
Speaker 1: I think you have to start the very beginning is

142
00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,959
Speaker 1: that Tony Corococcus abandoned his public oath. And without him

143
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,240
Speaker 1: doing that repeatedly, nothing else would have fallen into play.

144
00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,520
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have written certain articles, uh Todd would have

145
00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,120
Speaker 1: been struggling in a way, but just repeatedly abandoning his oath.

146
00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,079
Speaker 1: And then give us an example of that, well, I

147
00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,280
Speaker 1: think in the in the in the Ry case, where

148
00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,560
Speaker 1: it was very evident by two thousand fourteen, and let

149
00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,440
Speaker 1: me just say for listeners, Scott to Cry was the

150
00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,280
Speaker 1: largest mass shooter in Orange County history, and one of

151
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,120
Speaker 1: his victims was your wife, Mr Wilson. That's so the

152
00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,960
Speaker 1: key was in a place like Orange County, where there's

153
00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,120
Speaker 1: largely suburban juries who are not hesitant to vote for

154
00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,400
Speaker 1: the death penalty. This was considered a slam dunk death

155
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:30,920
Speaker 1: penalty case. And yet they violated the defendants constitutional rights constantly.

156
00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,840
Speaker 1: They had records covered it up in light about it right,

157
00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,840
Speaker 1: and then they committed perjury. And in the process of that,

158
00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,760
Speaker 1: Tony could have gone the high road and ended the

159
00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,679
Speaker 1: cheating and fired the people on his staff who were

160
00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,360
Speaker 1: cheating and go after the deputies a committed perjury in

161
00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,640
Speaker 1: a death penalty case. He did none of that. So

162
00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,119
Speaker 1: that's the basic right there. In fact, even said they

163
00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,880
Speaker 1: didn't agree with Judge Goethe's ruling. Right. I mean, I

164
00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:00,120
Speaker 1: remember the sheriff saying that she bloody overstepped himself. You

165
00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,360
Speaker 1: had a speaking engagement, I believe it was at a

166
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:08,600
Speaker 1: competing tabloid, and you spoke with and she was there sheriff,

167
00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:13,160
Speaker 1: and they've they've she and Mr ra Caucus have repeatedly

168
00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,320
Speaker 1: talked about their frustration with what happened. I don't know

169
00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,640
Speaker 1: that people listening understand that we had a debate that

170
00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,680
Speaker 1: got spurred by an informant that was both on the

171
00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,560
Speaker 1: Wasnia case and the Decry case. And in the Decry

172
00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,520
Speaker 1: case we ended up writing a lengthy motion of five

173
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,640
Speaker 1: page motion analyzing what we believed was a hidden informant program.

174
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:35,719
Speaker 1: That's how it all came to pass because you had

175
00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,439
Speaker 1: both clients, so you all of a sudden saw things

176
00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,600
Speaker 1: happening in both cases that ultimately drew you into the

177
00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,520
Speaker 1: informant scandals. So the line of the Sheriff's department, District

178
00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,800
Speaker 1: Attorney's office is that this informant ended up in these

179
00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,360
Speaker 1: locations next to high profile defendants by accident. It was

180
00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,240
Speaker 1: just a coincident. You represented two of those high profiles

181
00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,240
Speaker 1: and that then Wosnia and Scott to Cry and Judge

182
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,720
Speaker 1: Gouldals in the Decry case did some miraculous, really incredible things.

183
00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,200
Speaker 1: First of all, he told the D's office to turn

184
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,560
Speaker 1: over materials they didn't want to turn over, and then

185
00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,400
Speaker 1: he allowed us to have hearings over three years in

186
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,559
Speaker 1: which more and more evidence poured into the courtroom. Prosecutors

187
00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,920
Speaker 1: took the stand, which was very different in Judge Connolly's

188
00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:24,360
Speaker 1: courtroom because he wrote similar motions, but there was no hearings. Well,

189
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,600
Speaker 1: they were just a decision was made, that's right, and

190
00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,599
Speaker 1: Judge Goltals moved over time. He first denied our recusal,

191
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,800
Speaker 1: then looked at more evidence and granted it, then dismissed

192
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,280
Speaker 1: the death penalty. Judge kindly didn't allow any hearing. And

193
00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,320
Speaker 1: by the way, what's kind of important is the Wosnia

194
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,360
Speaker 1: case actually led to some of the most important evidence

195
00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,320
Speaker 1: in the Decry case. So, for example, when we lost

196
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,520
Speaker 1: and Decry, we went and got records in the Wosniak case,

197
00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,480
Speaker 1: and those records with Judge Statler as a matter of fact.

198
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:55,880
Speaker 1: He then ordered some records. I don't think he knew

199
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,640
Speaker 1: what they were, but they were devastating to what witnesses

200
00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:00,720
Speaker 1: had said in the Decry case. He saw a similar

201
00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 1: name coming up, Is that right? Similar names, informant names,

202
00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,360
Speaker 1: informant names, and evidence we had never seen before. An

203
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,840
Speaker 1: evidence had contradicted what witnesses had said on the standover months,

204
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:16,400
Speaker 1: and Mr Moxley was covering it like incredible, Yeah, yeah, incredible,

205
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:21,400
Speaker 1: award winning incredible. And not to speak for Paul, but Paul,

206
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:26,319
Speaker 1: who started as someone who couldn't have been more opposed

207
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,240
Speaker 1: to what we were doing, I would say, was watching

208
00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,960
Speaker 1: you would had not a happy relationship, nothing, no cooperation.

209
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,120
Speaker 1: It was very contankerous. First, he was rightfully angry. Right,

210
00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,560
Speaker 1: you were representing his wife's killer. This is the guy

211
00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,000
Speaker 1: that's defending the guy that part of your life away.

212
00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,319
Speaker 1: Changed my life. I was married for twenty six years,

213
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,280
Speaker 1: three children, it's a sky changed the course of my life.

214
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,480
Speaker 1: And here's the guy defending him. And how could you

215
00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,160
Speaker 1: not how could you not feel the way you felt?

216
00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,240
Speaker 1: But I also want to talk about the conversation stion

217
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,720
Speaker 1: you had with the prosecutor. I think it was Dan Wagner.

218
00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,240
Speaker 1: You told me that you went right up to him

219
00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:09,000
Speaker 1: and and said, is are the things that Mr Sanders

220
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,959
Speaker 1: saying in court about this informant scandal? Are they true?

221
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,400
Speaker 1: What was that correct? I mean, when all of this

222
00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,160
Speaker 1: started coming out and we noticed that Judge Goethe's was

223
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,280
Speaker 1: allowing this to go on and happen in the courtroom,

224
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:28,040
Speaker 1: we would ask the public appropriate questions, and the Wagner's

225
00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,240
Speaker 1: answer was, that's just the public defender throwing up smoking

226
00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,720
Speaker 1: mirrors and trying to dance around this thing, and extended

227
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,720
Speaker 1: out that's none of that's true. They're all lies, nothing

228
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:42,120
Speaker 1: you need to worry about. So no ownership. No, he's

229
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,640
Speaker 1: sitting there lying to families that are all murder victims

230
00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,960
Speaker 1: and he's lying to us. Was that the inciting incident

231
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,280
Speaker 1: for you was that when it all turned was already

232
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:57,240
Speaker 1: starting to turn. I think there was about about years two,

233
00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:02,280
Speaker 1: about two thousand fifth, maybe about two thousand fifteen, that

234
00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,960
Speaker 1: I started to see this thing unhinging and asking why

235
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,720
Speaker 1: why is you know, this is a very simple case.

236
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,360
Speaker 1: Why is the judge allowing all this? Common sense has

237
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,400
Speaker 1: to tell you that there's a reason why. I mean,

238
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,560
Speaker 1: this is a very good judge, and he's allowing it.

239
00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,400
Speaker 1: So something's not something's not sitting something legitimate about what

240
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,600
Speaker 1: Mr Sanders is discussing. Your listeners should know that in

241
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,520
Speaker 1: the early years of the case, the prosecutor's office went

242
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,960
Speaker 1: out on a pr mission to blame Mr Sanders for

243
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,280
Speaker 1: all the delays in the case, as they did in

244
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,840
Speaker 1: Lasniak and as as it turned out, as which judge

245
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 1: was determined, it was actually the Sheriff's department and the

246
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,080
Speaker 1: prosecutors that had delayed the whole time because they were

247
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,960
Speaker 1: hiding stuff that should have come in along a lot earlier.

248
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,840
Speaker 1: So they weren't they weren't submitting what the court was

249
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,680
Speaker 1: asking for, coming up with all kinds of excuse. You've

250
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,320
Speaker 1: can understand. I mean that when I talked about this,

251
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,400
Speaker 1: sometimes on the defense side it can be difficult. This

252
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,040
Speaker 1: is a case were ultimately, when we had marshaled all

253
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,920
Speaker 1: the evidence and gone through everything and spending year study,

254
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,400
Speaker 1: we owned the facts. When we walked into the courtroom,

255
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,080
Speaker 1: we had documents that showed the movements of informants and

256
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,520
Speaker 1: the concealment of it and how it wasn't coming forward

257
00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,080
Speaker 1: in cases, So you would be asking witnesses questions and

258
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,080
Speaker 1: their answers would be ridiculous. And I remember at some

259
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:23,760
Speaker 1: point Paul and I have talked about this. I would

260
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,200
Speaker 1: look back at him, can you believe it? Kind of

261
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,480
Speaker 1: a little bit like this is this is absurd and

262
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 1: kind of wanted to see his reaction. And I did

263
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,640
Speaker 1: see the reaction. Again, that's before we were friendly. I mean,

264
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:41,680
Speaker 1: we were still but it's starting to unravel. And he

265
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:46,520
Speaker 1: notices that I'm noticing that it's unraveling, and he's like

266
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,320
Speaker 1: watching an Abbot and Costello show. Absolutely and something that

267
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,360
Speaker 1: two days after the shooting happened, we were all summoned

268
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,160
Speaker 1: down to the d a's office and it brought us

269
00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,320
Speaker 1: all upstairs and Tony's up there telling us what he's

270
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:01,840
Speaker 1: going to do and how he's going to do it,

271
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,160
Speaker 1: and the news media is assembling downstairs. It's a it's

272
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,600
Speaker 1: a huge news comp of course, UM, and he says

273
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,400
Speaker 1: to us, I don't want you guys exposed to the

274
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,200
Speaker 1: media at this time. This is something that I'm going

275
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,480
Speaker 1: to carry and I've I've got your backs and I'm

276
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,400
Speaker 1: going to take care of you guys. And he did

277
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:25,080
Speaker 1: anything but take care of us, and UM did you

278
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,640
Speaker 1: feel like, right, then there was something funny that No. No,

279
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,440
Speaker 1: I mean this is two days. This is my first

280
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,080
Speaker 1: exposure to the system. Right, the system is gonna work

281
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,040
Speaker 1: because we all wanted to labor, all Americans, and it's

282
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,080
Speaker 1: the best system in the world. Never been in court,

283
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,240
Speaker 1: never had any exposure to it. Here's the top law enforcement.

284
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,640
Speaker 1: Certainly not to be there, you didn't want to be there.

285
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,360
Speaker 1: I'm a hundred percent convinced that they're going to protect

286
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,640
Speaker 1: is going to protect me, and they're gonna do what's right,

287
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,840
Speaker 1: and the system is going to work exactly how it's

288
00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:59,160
Speaker 1: supposed to work for me. Did complete the complete opposite.

289
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,360
Speaker 1: I think get people don't realize sometimes as they think, well,

290
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:09,160
Speaker 1: if you uncover misconduct, it only helps defendants, like yeah,

291
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,520
Speaker 1: but but all of this it's for society well and

292
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,200
Speaker 1: also for victims. So the problem is if you're in

293
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 1: a death penalty case and twenty years later evidence that

294
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,800
Speaker 1: comes forward that could have been available twenty years earlier,

295
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,960
Speaker 1: that's when victims lives get unraveled again. So cheating doesn't

296
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,399
Speaker 1: help on any side. And in reality, here, if they

297
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,480
Speaker 1: would have played it straight from the beginning, they would

298
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,280
Speaker 1: have gotten the death penalty. They would have had a

299
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,359
Speaker 1: pretty good shot, not that I would have ever wanted it.

300
00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,160
Speaker 1: I would have always been opposed to it, but they

301
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,480
Speaker 1: but they could have done it clean from the beginning.

302
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,880
Speaker 1: And one of the great and terrible examples is that

303
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,280
Speaker 1: we are years into this litigation, we are the D's

304
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,040
Speaker 1: Office has been recused, and we discover a whole series

305
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,640
Speaker 1: of records called a special Handling Log that basically said

306
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,400
Speaker 1: that everything we had said way back in two thousand

307
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,480
Speaker 1: in fourteen when we first filed the brief was accurate.

308
00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,480
Speaker 1: If they had turned that over when they were supposed to,

309
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,320
Speaker 1: and they were required to, because in two thousand and

310
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,480
Speaker 1: thirteen they had in order to turn over all of

311
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,280
Speaker 1: these types of materials they refused. If they had done that,

312
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,359
Speaker 1: Paul wouldn't have gone through this, none of it. It

313
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 1: would have all right there been out What would have

314
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 1: happened happened to tell us? I would have dealt with

315
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,639
Speaker 1: all the informant issues right there. We would have understood

316
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,200
Speaker 1: what was the scope of the litigation. We would have

317
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,920
Speaker 1: realized it all there wouldn't have been But what would

318
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:30,960
Speaker 1: have been the downside for the d A's Office to

319
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,919
Speaker 1: admit all of that well, and let's let's say, you know,

320
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,320
Speaker 1: some stuff D's office sometimes Sheriff's office. If the Sheriff's

321
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,520
Speaker 1: office had admitted, why do you think they were afraid

322
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, this happened. Let's move on. Because it's

323
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 1: devastating because because behind all this, unfortunately is years of concealment.

324
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,959
Speaker 1: It's not just the Scott Decry case. So other cases

325
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,600
Speaker 1: would have. Is that what you think, Mr Moxley? A

326
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,760
Speaker 1: whole lot of Absolutely. In January two fourteen, when Matt

327
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,520
Speaker 1: Murphy and Dan Waggoner in the homicide unit received Scott's

328
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:07,119
Speaker 1: motion and to cry, I was with them and they

329
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,359
Speaker 1: huddled around, and they looked through it and they told

330
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,960
Speaker 1: me and they trusted me at this point. I trusted

331
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,119
Speaker 1: them at that point. This is nothing. This is just

332
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 1: wild stuff. But I could see the look on some

333
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,640
Speaker 1: of their faces of cringet, trepidation, and and so I

334
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 1: you know, it's a five page motion And I remember

335
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,080
Speaker 1: on a Saturday going to a coffee shop thinking I'm

336
00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna speed read this puppy, and I get

337
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,119
Speaker 1: like forty pages in. It's been like four hours because

338
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 1: it's so dense. That's how much hard work went into

339
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,159
Speaker 1: that to that brief, and I'm talking about Mr Sanders,

340
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 1: the original brief, and I knew that I was. I

341
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:51,240
Speaker 1: just it's not the first document that revealed the informant scandal,

342
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 1: and I knew this is gonna take me forever to

343
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 1: digest because there's so many and you didn't have any

344
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,680
Speaker 1: real professional relationship with Mr Sanders at that point. I

345
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,280
Speaker 1: watched him in him. I knew of him. I had

346
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,919
Speaker 1: watched him in court um and in fact, some of

347
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,440
Speaker 1: the people in the homicide unit had previously told me

348
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,000
Speaker 1: good things. They thought he was a really good lawyer.

349
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,360
Speaker 1: It's true. And so eventually, when I felt I got

350
00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,439
Speaker 1: a little bit more into it, I realized the issues

351
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,879
Speaker 1: are way beyond me that he's discussing in terms of

352
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,639
Speaker 1: all the informant games and the Sheriff's Department, the d

353
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,480
Speaker 1: A that I requested a meeting, and we were hesitative

354
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,080
Speaker 1: at each other because he'd read my coverage of the

355
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,800
Speaker 1: Orange County District Office and a favorable that I've written

356
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 1: favorable stories about their homicide cases. So when we sat down,

357
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,800
Speaker 1: we didn't know exactly where we were going to go.

358
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 1: All I wanted out of the meeting was one thing,

359
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,159
Speaker 1: that that he would open up a channel that I

360
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,879
Speaker 1: could ask him questions. That was it to start with

361
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,399
Speaker 1: that he was worried whether he could trust a reporter

362
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,680
Speaker 1: who was so close to everybody in the homicide unit.

363
00:20:53,720 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: Thank goodness, you went first. I was second after that.

364
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 1: That's the article where he came with the cowboy hat

365
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 1: and the think oxide on his nose and you were

366
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 1: afraid of the sunshine at that. I never really had

367
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 1: any um communications with reporters. Maybe once in a while

368
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 1: somebody would ask me something, but this is really my

369
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 1: first time I've ever media, and you know, and it's

370
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 1: the most media don't say very nice things about your clients,

371
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 1: so I could understand you not. One of the one

372
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 1: of the remarkable things for me in terms of signals

373
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 1: was in the after maybe a week or two where

374
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 1: the d a's office had time to digest more about

375
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 1: what was in the in the brief, there was a

376
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 1: hearing in in No wazni At case with Murphy and

377
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 1: Matt was walking behind him at the pacing and standing

378
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 1: right behind him, and and I was sitting in there.

379
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 1: You hadn't seen that kind of behavior before. I hadn't

380
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,919
Speaker 1: seen that from him that I could remember. But what

381
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 1: the difference was Scott swiveled around in the divince here

382
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 1: and just stared up at him. It wasn't frown or

383
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: just just he was digesting, like you could see he's

384
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 1: just take but he spun around. He wasn't afraid. He

385
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 1: wasn't afraid. And that was the signals, Like because one

386
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,160
Speaker 1: of my pet peeve covering court for for so long

387
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,959
Speaker 1: is I hate lazy lawyers, you know. And I was like, oh,

388
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 1: this guy's this guy is ready to fight, and he

389
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 1: wasn't over the top. It was just you hate lazy journalists.

390
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 1: I do, but I've seen so many. Matt is an

391
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 1: impressive courtroom figure, and I've seen many defense lawyers just

392
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 1: crumble around him. And for for Scott Sanders to spin

393
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 1: around and follow him like it's sick. I'm not afraid

394
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: of you. I'm not afraid of you on this and

395
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 1: it was it was a turning point for me that

396
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 1: I have to pay attention, I have to learn more,

397
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 1: and thankfully my company allowed me to drop covering other

398
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 1: things to spend more time kind of digesting this and

399
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: learning the issues. And they were tough at first. The

400
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: Messiah rules and when you can when the cops can

401
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 1: talk to you or not, and that sort of thing.

402
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 1: It was. It was a learning experience. It took years

403
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 1: to kind of feel like I understood it appropriately. But

404
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 1: it all began there with them telling me I couldn't

405
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 1: trust Scott, but me seeing a signal of him ready

406
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 1: to fight. And then he he slowly opened up and

407
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: helped me understand what was in his motion and why

408
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: he put it in. Do you feel satisfaction? Anybody could

409
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 1: answer this with the election results, Well, my friends joked

410
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: with me that as an investigative journalist it's better to

411
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 1: have Tony Rococcus in there because he's just a scandal machine. So, UM,

412
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 1: I laugh at that. I think I've told you that before.

413
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: And uh, I mean I've I've known Todd Spitzer and

414
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 1: Tony Rococcus since the late nineties. Maybe we have no

415
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,160
Speaker 1: Todd since my listeners about a little bit about Todd

416
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: Spitzer's background. Well, Todd has been on a school board,

417
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 1: he's been a county supervisor twice, he's been termed out

418
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 1: at the state Assembly. Um, he's a radio show and

419
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 1: KFI many years ago, or at least he was a

420
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: producer or something like that. He's been a reserve a

421
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 1: Los Angeles Police Department officer and um, you know, so

422
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: he has served the public over the years. Yeah, he's

423
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: a he's a He's unlike Ricoccus, Tony a touch bitzer,

424
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 1: is much more of a policy wonk. He gets into

425
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 1: the nitty gritty of why you have to do something right.

426
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: Rococcus is more, Uh, my friends calling on the phone

427
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 1: that needs help, maybe a case doesn't get filed for example. Uh.

428
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 1: One of the first indicators for me about Tony Ricoccus

429
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: was his office filed a complaint against George Arduous, who

430
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: was a billionaire Newport Beach real estate developer. He has

431
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 1: an apartment complex massive, and he was refusing to give

432
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: refunds to all these poor people, just systematically. That was

433
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: in the complaint. Within like forty five minutes of it

434
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 1: being filed officially in court with the time stamp, he

435
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:02,400
Speaker 1: had it yanked. Arduous was one of his campaign contributors,

436
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: and that cleared the way for George Arduous to pass

437
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 1: Senate confirmation to become a US ambassador to Spain. That's

438
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: the type of thing that Todd has campaigned a bit,

439
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: not just recently, but kind of fought against or argued

440
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: against that. You can't have a system operating like that.

441
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: And I can tell you that the prosecutors on that

442
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: case were horrified that they had They had worked on

443
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: it for years and years, and for him to yank

444
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,360
Speaker 1: it for what they believe our political concerns was unacceptable.

445
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: Do you think that with a new administration, the cleanup

446
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: that Todd Spitzer promised to his constituents will indeed take place?

447
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: I just am taking the perspective that it's a possibility

448
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: that he will, he'll bring that in. I want to

449
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 1: be positive about that, but this is what I would say.

450
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 1: It's not going to be enough to just look forward

451
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: and make sure that it doesn't happen in the future.

452
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: There's issues to address here that are not going to

453
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 1: just go away. And like what, well, right now we

454
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 1: have a phone call scandal. We have issues with regard

455
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: to and to say what that is. There's been calls

456
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 1: that recorded from inmates to their lawyers improperly. Unquestionably those

457
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 1: numbers have grown as really well, you're not allowed to

458
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: record calls from inmates to their lawyers. It's strictly prohibited

459
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: and has lots of legal implications and they have been recorded.

460
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: They have and you know this for fact. Yes, this

461
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: has been admitted. This has been admitted by the telephone

462
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: provider and by the Sheriff's department. There's no question. Yeah,

463
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: it's not it's not a disputed issue. It's been admitted

464
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: by both entities. The numbers that the sheriff Department admitted, Yes,

465
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: and they're at this reluctantly. Reluctantly. They took a long time,

466
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 1: and I would say they absolutely concealed it for three

467
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: and a half years. So now they come forward and

468
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: they have admissions of a very small number of calls.

469
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 1: How did you come to realize this is And it

470
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: wasn't me. It was another lawyer by the name of

471
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 1: Joel Garson who covered it in a case. Our office

472
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 1: then has been leading an effort to bring it out

473
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: in other cases. I have one of the cases that's involved.

474
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 1: But they admitted a thousand calls on Friday, we're talking

475
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: here on the Tuesday and Friday. They've admitted now that

476
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: the calls maybe vastly greater. We think the numbers are

477
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: more like an excess of two thousand calls, and we

478
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: think there's lots of logic supporting that and lots of

479
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 1: cover up on it. So that's not going to go away,

480
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: and he has to handle issues like that. There's also

481
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: the issue of the people that were involved in the

482
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: informant scandal have moved to the streets. So if you

483
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: were a deputy working in the jail and you then

484
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: were part of what we're part of it, that's supposed

485
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: to follow you your whole career. If you made the

486
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: decision to engage in governmental misconduct and concealment of that,

487
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 1: and that should follow you. So when you take the

488
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: witness stand, you get to be questioned about that. It

489
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: does not look like there's been any disclosures of that

490
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: in cases, and so that's another issue we've raised. But

491
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: so that's gonna be the issue you for Mr Spitzer.

492
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: I think there's a really good chance he's going to

493
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: say I don't want cheating to take place. I'm hoping

494
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: that's the case. Well if he, I mean, you said

495
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 1: he ran on that, but that campaign promise. But that's

496
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 1: I just want to say, But that's just not enough.

497
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: He has to remedy what's going on to date. He's

498
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: got to make sure that cases from the past get

499
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: handled correctly. Well, we'll have Mr Moxley watching out for that,

500
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: right sure. Let me just add something on the phone

501
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 1: call for your listeners. The importance is that your pre

502
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: trial inmate, the the Shares Department controls every aspect of

503
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,959
Speaker 1: your day and night in there, and you're supposed to

504
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: constitutionally have the ability to communicate with your defense lawyer.

505
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: And those communications are important because you're talking about strategy

506
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: or your feelings or whatever, where a piece of evidence

507
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: might be and that sort of thing. And they just

508
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: can't violate that. And we know they've come in and

509
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: tried to downplay the numbers so far, the number the

510
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: system records the calls, that's a violation. But then the

511
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: Shares deputies and key cases were going in and monitoring,

512
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: downloading the calls for themselves and not telling anyone. And

513
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: in the particular case of Josh Wearing that's ongoing right now,

514
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: uh my belief that he had said some things only

515
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: on the phone. And then Coasta Mesa police department eventually

516
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: had the prosecutor had to admit that she she had

517
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: been given a rundown of the what was said in

518
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,959
Speaker 1: the phone call. That's how they were aware of and

519
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: wrote things in certain motions, and was the prosecutor using

520
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: that information? They yes, they did. That's what started the

521
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: whole ball rolling on us. That's the first indication of

522
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: these calls. And the other thing that's really fascinating is

523
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: the group in the jail that kind of it was

524
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: at the forefront of the informant scandal was a group

525
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: called Special Handling. And so in March of two fifteen,

526
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: Judge Goltel's removes them from the District Attorney's office. One

527
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: day later, that same entity, Special Handling, stops another log

528
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: that they were keeping, and that log had all sorts

529
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: of information about their monitoring a phone calls. So you

530
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: didn't see that at that point, we didn't know. We

531
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: had no idea that we didn't have the evidence yet

532
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: that they were that they were actually listening to calls

533
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: that hadn't come out until a couple of months ago.

534
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: But way back they end their log. This is the

535
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: second log that they ended in a very strangely time decision.

536
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: One just within days of Judge Golde's ordering evidence in

537
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: the decry case, and then second within days of Judge

538
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: Goltell's throwing them off the case. And here comes the

539
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: Attorney General's office, they've been listening to all these calls

540
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: and suddenly they just they decided to stop their log

541
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: for a second time. So that's just one piece. You know,

542
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: they turned over documents that are ridiculous where you're you've

543
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: got a hundred law offices you're calling, and there's five

544
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: week periods where they claiming there's not a single call

545
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: made to a lawyer's office. It's absurd stuff. And so

546
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: when you engage in that kind of conduct repeatedly, and

547
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: we've gone through this through our litigation and through this litigation,

548
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: what do you do with the sheriff's department that keeps

549
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 1: behaving like this? Well, here comes Mr Spitzer and have

550
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: to hope it's to the rescue. But that's a that's

551
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,959
Speaker 1: a tall order. And how do you feel because for

552
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: so long you said your relationship with the d A's

553
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: office was a positive one, right where you never saw

554
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: any of this. I had no idea. I'd watched certain

555
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: battles litigate out and I wasn't aware. I knew that

556
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: there were trouble with certain prosecutors. I mean, one, for example,

557
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: was tipping off the organized crime about raids that were

558
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: on the way. Wait, wait, what does that mean you

559
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: you tipped off? I'm aware of a prosecutor doing that.

560
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: Orange County was working in league with the organized crime

561
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: to tip them when they were going to be police raids. Um,

562
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: he lost his license, but now he's back in practicing.

563
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: When did that? By the way, he contributed to he

564
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: was yes, So couldn't we say his name? Brian Kazarian? Right?

565
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: And how long ago? When was he a prosecutor? Was

566
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: the beginning of the rococcus term? Right back? And he was.

567
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: I mean he was a prosecutor starting when I did.

568
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: We were in the almost the same class six years

569
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: ago almost. But the key here is that if they

570
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: every time you go into court, the judge will say,

571
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: or the lawyers are said, during when they're doing jury selection,

572
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: when this officer or an officer comes in, our deputy

573
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: comes in, you're not going to give them any more

574
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: weight than any other witness because that would be wrong.

575
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: And they all absolutely not. Now they come in and

576
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: they're wearing their weapons, they're wearing their outfit with their

577
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: ranks and whatever else, and that carries weight in ours county.

578
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: So I think it's an authority figure. I mean that's right.

579
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: So that so that the way the system, if the

580
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: system is working, you have to rely on the credibility

581
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: of those officers to tell the truth. Once that system

582
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: is broken down, which it has here, how can you

583
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: trust any decision? Then I was just gonna say, it's

584
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: a trust based system. And in the in the in

585
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: the Informant jail House Informant scandal, they knew the loophole.

586
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: Prosecutors and deputies knew the loophole to site. So for example,

587
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: you once a pre trial defendant has been arraigned and

588
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: has a lawyer, the government and their agents like informants,

589
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: are not allowed to question them about the case. So

590
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: there's an exemption that if an inmate wink wink that's

591
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: not working for the government accidentally overhears the guy confessing. Right,

592
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: So they would parade the guy into court and go,

593
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: did we make any deal with you? No, No, you're

594
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: not gonna get any sweetheart deal at all. So you're

595
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: just out of the goodness of your heart. You listened

596
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: in and you heard this guy confess, and you get

597
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: nothing in return. Right, And so what we've learned in

598
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: the snitch scandal is the routine was they had meetings.

599
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: They wink wink, and they would move, they would shuffle

600
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: the informants around, and the informants were writing notes going

601
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: I love my little job I have. And the two

602
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: of them that Scott exposed, both of them who that

603
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: the d a's office said, oh, we have no deal

604
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: with them. There was no prior deal for them. They

605
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: did out of the good. These are gang murderous gang members,

606
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: by the way, who were facing life in prison unless

607
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: they cut unless they cut a deal in some way,

608
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: and they were being paraded into court. Oh, no deal

609
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: at all. There was nothing there. And we later on,

610
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: Um saw the paperwork in the process that worked out

611
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,879
Speaker 1: how they were using that loophole to cheat. How did

612
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: you how did you confront your sources in the d

613
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: a's office when you were seeing this unfold? How did

614
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: that change or did it change your relationship or your

615
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: feelings towards these people that you had been covering for years? Well, Um,

616
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,240
Speaker 1: Susan King Schroeder. She is Tony Roccoccus is right hand person,

617
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: and she was the head of Public Aration's office. She

618
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 1: made herself chief of staff. She was the head of

619
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: what office at public Relations office? And as I was

620
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 1: writing as I was learning and I watched the developments

621
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: in the nich snitch scandal, she repeatedly, routinely said, I'm

622
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 1: gonna cut you off from our agency if you keep

623
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: writing these stories. And I just kept well, then you're

624
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: gonna have to cut me off because I'm going to

625
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: write what I see in court. And quite frankly, she

626
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: couldn't even keep up because she wasn't paying attention or

627
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: whatever whoever the sources were who were telling her about

628
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: what was happening, they were ill advised, or they weren't

629
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: telling a story, or she just was down with spin spin.

630
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: So I've lost her as a source and she's the

631
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: main d a flack or was and so yeah, there's

632
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: a ramification for telling the truth in a story about

633
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: what you what you see sounds familiar. Well, I mean,

634
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 1: this is what's so incredible about having someone like Paul

635
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: involved in another person by the name of Bethany Webb

636
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: also who had who lost a loved one. There's it

637
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: never happens. You don't have victims who are so stunned

638
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: by what they're seeing. I mean that they rise above

639
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: their natural feelings would be towards you representing their loved

640
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: one's killer, right that they rise above that. That's right,

641
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: first of all. Most human beings can't do that. Regardless

642
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: like that we would be sitting here today and that

643
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 1: we've sat together many times. It's Marathos, But it's not.

644
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: That's not me, that's Paul, because I can do it

645
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: as a defense lawyer, you know, I can. I'm trained

646
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: to see everybody in in all sorts of shades. But

647
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: to have lost your loved one the way he did

648
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 1: and still to say, look, I can't see how horrible

649
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,479
Speaker 1: that is and how much it's it's devastated my life,

650
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: but I still can't tolerate the cheating that's going on

651
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: in the courtroom and that no one's being held accountable.

652
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: And that's the key. And I think I don't want

653
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: to speak for Paul, but I think that's what's so

654
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: motivating to him and why he keeps pushing me, is

655
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: that there's the tenants of our system, right, but there's

656
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: no there's been zero accountability, right, And that's the problem.

657
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: And it's the zero accountability. And does that frighten you?

658
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: Of course it frightens me absolutely. I Mean, like I said,

659
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 1: I'm a guy that went into this believing in this

660
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 1: system and this system that's in place for exactly guys

661
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: like me. Right, That's that's what you think as we

662
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: sit here today. I'm still very pro police, pro law enforcement,

663
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: and I believe that there's more good being done than

664
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: than there is is bad. Unfortunately, I got put in

665
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: with the bad and I had to experience and through

666
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: that experience, Yeah, I mean it look at these guys

667
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: took almost seven years of my life of and like

668
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: Scott said earlier, the only reason I was going back

669
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 1: to court is because they got caught cheating. They got

670
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: caught breaking the law, and that extended the time I

671
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: had to go to court. And so you no longer

672
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: looked at it as Scott Sanders fault. You looked at

673
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: it as the d and obviously, and I mean, can't

674
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: tell you what it's like sitting ten feet away from

675
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: the guy that has changed the course of your life.

676
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 1: It drains, It takes everything out of your soul. I

677
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: would leave court that day and just have to go

678
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: home and close up my house and just sit there

679
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,720
Speaker 1: and and and be alone, because it just takes everything

680
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: out of you. It's hard to understand unless you're there

681
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: actually had a very similar conversation with me about that

682
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 1: with Dan wisn Yankee says, you just can't imagine. It's

683
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 1: mentally and physically excruciating and draining. And the fact that

684
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: I only had to do that because these guys got

685
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: caught cheating. They need to be held accountable, and they're there.

686
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: They as far as I'm concerned, Scott and it we're

687
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: gonna work to get these guys there are going to

688
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: be held accountable. So you're angry, of course, I'm angry.

689
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: I mean, these guys lied to me. It's difficult. I

690
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: had a son in high school going through his senior

691
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: year when this all happened. He was he was getting

692
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: looked at it by colleges, and there was so much

693
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: to juggle in the fact that these guys we're just

694
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 1: using me as a pawn and playing with me and

695
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: lying to me, and they knew exactly what they were doing.

696
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 1: It's unacceptable to me, and I'm not going to allow

697
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: it to happen. And it's at some point somewhere along

698
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: the line, those bad guys are going to have to

699
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: be held accountable. I mean, you could understand Paul's gone

700
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: and spoken to the attorney General's office himself and asked

701
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 1: for answers because in two thousand and fifteen they announced

702
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: we're going to do an investigation of what the Sheriff's

703
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: department did. It was obvious cover up. Judge Golds called

704
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: out the perjury in written rulings and it's undebatable perjury

705
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 1: and there's plenty of evidence. We're three and a half

706
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: years later, not a peep from them, not a word.

707
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: Tell me what's going on with the Department of Justice

708
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: and the Attorney general investigations. I think as Scott's was

709
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 1: saying earlier, the delay, the three and a half year

710
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: delay with nothing to show for it in it may

711
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,919
Speaker 1: I believe the California Attorney General, who supposedly independently investigating

712
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: corruption in the Arrange County shriffs Department, held a campaign

713
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: stunt press conference with the candidate that's trying to replace

714
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: and did replace us shriff functions, So to pose in

715
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: front of the media right before an election. You're not

716
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: gonna do that if you're going to hold these accountable. Plus,

717
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: standing right behind him is one of the lead investigators

718
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: in this who's also one of the very prominent figures

719
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 1: in the whole snitch scandal. Yeah, who is that? William

720
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: Baker was one of the people who's been investigating and

721
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: supposedly on the inside level trying to determine who's responsible.

722
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: But that investigation that Basara came to speak at and

723
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: speak about with Don Barnes, the newly elected sheriff, was

724
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: an investigation that's led by one of the primary people

725
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: from the snitch scandal, So a fellow by the name

726
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: of Jonathan Larson, all through the snitch scandal, in the

727
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: heart of it, in the heart of not turning over records,

728
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: they chose him, of all people to be their lead

729
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: investigator in this very important Mexican mafia investigation. So if

730
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: you're us looking at this, you think, but did he

731
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: take the standard stand? He testified, he told tests, covered up,

732
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: he gave to testimony in two different cases. He never

733
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: revealed for years that there was an informant program. So

734
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: he's a guy that you would think, well, we just

735
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: moved him to the side. Would they put him in

736
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 1: charge of investigating Why? Because they're not afraid at all.

737
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: They have no fear of the attorney generals, nobody that's

738
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: holding anybody accountable. This is one of the things when

739
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: I met with the d o J, and I made

740
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 1: very clear to them that what's happening in Orange County,

741
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 1: they're laughing at you, guys. They don't they operate as

742
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: they want to, when they want to, how they want to.

743
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: They're laughing at you. They don't care what you have

744
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: to say about it. They don't care what you think

745
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 1: or what you'll do. They're laughing at you. And what

746
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 1: was their response. Number of people at the d o J,

747
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,720
Speaker 1: the California Department of Justice. So there's the response. Um.

748
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: Their response was, we're not here to give you responses.

749
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: We're here to listen to you. Mr Wilson, Wow, how

750
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: do you feel about that? Mr? Mat doesn't make me

751
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,959
Speaker 1: happy because the system is not working. And it goes

752
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: back to it's been obvious perjury. There's been the destruction

753
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 1: of records. Even their own records show that they've destroyed evidence,

754
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: and nothing's happened so well, And just just to draw

755
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: it back to WASNAC for a second, So in the

756
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: Waznia case, we actually went further back. The cry is

757
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 1: really limited to about a six year examination of informant

758
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: records in the WASNIAC case, even though we never were

759
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 1: permitted a hearing. In our argument in the Waznia case

760
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: was that the system is so corrupted right now that

761
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: it's not a reliable one for imposing the death penalty,

762
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: that you can't reliably count on evidence being turned over.

763
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: But when we looked at in Wozniak was looking back

764
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,479
Speaker 1: at thirty five years of deception, because it's been going

765
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: on forever, the same techniques, the same tactics. And if

766
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 1: you looked at case after case since the early nineteen

767
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: eighties where informants were involved, they always coincidentally landed in

768
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: the same place. They were using the same what we

769
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: call snitch tanks or informant tanks, same techniques, no disclosure.

770
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 1: So and then did those snitches get some kind of

771
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: a sweetheart They all us do. They always do. They

772
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 1: come in and their line is, I'm doing it out

773
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: of a moral obligation. That's what Fernando Perez said in

774
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: the in the Wosniac and Decry cases. That's what Oscar

775
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: Morial did in every case. Now, Matt did give you

776
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: the letter from Fernando. There's no there's no disclosure issue

777
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: in terms of Matt Murphy failing to turn over discovery

778
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: and We never argued that he failed to turn over

779
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: discovery on that level. We did argue that the Sheriff's

780
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 1: department didn't turn over materials, and they didn't. In fact,

781
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: after we lost in the Wosniac case was when we

782
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 1: got this special Handling log that included details about the

783
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 1: contacts with Special Handling and Fernando Perez to get statements

784
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: that's almost undeniable. And also wasn't the mail order requests

785
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: from Detective Morales discovered at that point, right? That was

786
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 1: discovered afterwards as well, after the trial was complete. That

787
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: the trial was completed, So after Wosniak was completed, was

788
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: when we got in a in subsequent litigation, this key

789
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: document that has so much about what everyone had been

790
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,240
Speaker 1: denying up to that. So, really you weren't given everything

791
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: in discovery. We weren't giving everything. And I've always said this.

792
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 1: I'll put it aside and say we don't blame Matt

793
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 1: Murphy for not giving us a special handling lung wool.

794
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 1: Assume that he didn't know about that. But what about

795
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 1: the Morales mail I don't request. Well, why Morales wasn't

796
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 1: turned over I don't know, but I will just say

797
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 1: we didn't get that, and that mail order request from

798
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: Detective Morales to the Orange County Sheriff's Department had it

799
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: a letter that spoke about the Coast of Mesa's belief

800
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: that there was a co conspirator in the case of

801
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 1: the murders of Sam and Julie, and so they wanted

802
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: the mail from Dan Wozniak in case there was mail

803
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: between Dan and Rachel Buffett, which shows the mindset of

804
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: the Coast of Masa police at the time that they

805
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: really did consider Rachel Buffett an accomplice. But again, this

806
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,879
Speaker 1: is we're talking about decades of concealment and it would

807
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: take an army to dig it all through, and people

808
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 1: are doing it. There's a lot of cases that have

809
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: been turned around by our numbers. There's eighteen cases where

810
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 1: the defendant received a new trial, this case was dismissed,

811
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 1: some very positive outcome for defendants related to informant related misconduct.

812
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: So this is the arguably the largest scandal in the

813
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: nation's history, and it's still growing and it should be

814
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: growing even more. But when do you think there's going

815
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 1: to be some form of actionable response from an authority

816
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:39,879
Speaker 1: that as something that they can claim that Okay, we're

817
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: going after these people and they're going to pay their

818
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: going there's going to be consequences to their actions. Where

819
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: do you see the end of this odyssey that you're

820
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 1: all on. Probably never, I mean realistically, I mean, I'm

821
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 1: not hoping for the U. S. Department of Justice or

822
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,439
Speaker 1: the California Department of Justice to save this. This This

823
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 1: work is just work that you just have to kind

824
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: of keep going on until someone cries uncle. Do you

825
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: think it's ultimately going to be the public that makes it?

826
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: I mean, here, we do have an election after twenty years,

827
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: we have a new administration. I would imagine that gives

828
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 1: you some form of hope, cautiously optimistic. But is it

829
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: the public in the end, Mr Moxley, that you think

830
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: has the power to make changes? They just showed it

831
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: and Todd Spitzer's election. Absolutely. And what one of the

832
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: most ridiculous or not ridiculous, but more arrogant things that

833
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: Shriff Huchins and Racoccus we're bragging about and when they

834
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: were doing private dinners and wealthy communities, was that nobody's

835
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: paying attention to niche candle because it's made up. It's

836
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: we all know around here that it's not made up,

837
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 1: it's real. And one of the real um facts that

838
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 1: people should know is they were sending in informants illegally,

839
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 1: and they were the informants were doing great intelligent intelligence works,

840
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: There's no doubt about that. Some of the notes that

841
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 1: they were making cleared defendants that were in jail, and

842
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: they held those notes because they didn't want to change.

843
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: They wanted that defendant. One of them was a fourteen

844
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,479
Speaker 1: year old boy who had been charged in Santa Anna

845
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: with a murder. The notes that they had in their

846
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 1: possession said, everybody knows this guy wasn't had nothing to

847
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 1: do with it. He's a punk. We would never let

848
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: him in our game. They kept him in and they

849
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: dragged it out. They dragged it out for how long

850
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: was that two years? Fourteen year old boy. So they're

851
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 1: selective and when they want to use the information, and

852
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: then they pretend that even though this is one of

853
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: the biggest informants in history modern history around here, they

854
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 1: didn't really read all of his notes, but they used

855
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 1: them in the cases where they wanted to use them well,

856
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 1: and that would add So when that district attorney took

857
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: the stand, do you remember what happened. He said that

858
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 1: they had lost their file. The District Attorney's office had

859
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: lost their file. His name is Stephen Shriver, he testified,

860
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: and James is here as a prosecutor in that case.

861
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: He said they couldn't find their file. The sant Ana

862
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: Police Department officers said, oh, it is all in the

863
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 1: hands of the District Attorney's office. The District Attorney's office said,

864
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,320
Speaker 1: we can't find our file. But just as Scott Moxley

865
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:18,320
Speaker 1: just said, those notes are a great indication of the mentality.

866
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: And I've sometimes when I talk about this case, compare it.

867
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 1: The guy who was making these comments to the informant

868
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: named Oscar Maurreal was not is not a great guy,

869
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: but he at least had the moral decency to know

870
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: that some kid who didn't do a crime shouldn't go

871
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: down for it. The folks who got the notes decided

872
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: the better route was to keep it to themselves because

873
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 1: they had a better sense of justice. And so when

874
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 1: people are playing on those levels and that type of mindset,

875
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 1: you imagine the damage they're doing in this context and

876
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: so many other contexts. Again, I always say this, if

877
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: you're cheating with informants who are the most dangerous witness

878
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: in the system. Everybody knows this, right. They're super motivated,

879
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: they'll say anything. They're half bounced away from being a

880
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: car salesman. They're incredibly skilled. They can I had a

881
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: difficult time questioning them because they're really talented. Often. But

882
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: if you're a district attorney's office and you're willing to

883
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: play with evidence of the sheriff's department or hold back things,

884
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: what will you do on other cases? Right? Because that

885
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: those are easy. You just turn over everything on an informant,

886
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 1: You put it out in front of the jury and

887
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: let them make a call it. But for years, here, decades,

888
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 1: I would say that hasn't happened, So it's not. And

889
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: this is why the argument I made on the Wisnia case.

890
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 1: In a culture that allows that you don't get to

891
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: have the death penalty, that's my argument. And that's one

892
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: that you know didn't work. But we'll see what happens

893
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: down the road. But it's frightening to me to think

894
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,720
Speaker 1: about what else is out there that we won't ever touch.

895
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 1: When you see this type of kind of because I

896
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: never saw I I've spent most of my last five

897
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 1: years of my life studying these issues, and I never

898
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: found something that was helpful to a defendant from an

899
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: informant that was disclosed. I never found it. And in

900
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: the case of Oscar or Moreal, this is a guy

901
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: who walked down the street with his buddies shooting at

902
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: people on their porches and didn't care. So he's technically

903
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: a serial killer. And I think he admitted how many

904
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: on the witness stand five He admitted five, But he

905
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: can't know because he's shooting as he's walking down the

906
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 1: street at night with his buddies. He's doing this all

907
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 1: the time. This is who Tony Prococcus in the Sheriffs

908
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: Department put their faith in UM as he's facing a

909
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: life sentence. And as far as in the Scotty case

910
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 1: you're talking about, well when well he testified, He testified

911
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: in three cases with nine defendants looking at life. He

912
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,879
Speaker 1: ended up testifying in the Scott Decry case and having

913
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 1: to answer some of those questions, and this is one

914
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: of them. You're saying they used him as a credible witness. Yeah,

915
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: they oh yeah, they pretended they didn't have a deal

916
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 1: with him, but he got a sweetheart deal. Recently, as

917
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 1: Scott and Scott wrote a number of stories about Oscar

918
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: Morel and the lunacy of this right, true serial killer.

919
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,359
Speaker 1: If you go out five times to do shootings, isn't

920
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,439
Speaker 1: that the very definition of a serial killer? You don't

921
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 1: become less of one because you're a gang member. Right.

922
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: Then he goes up and I don't know if you've

923
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: ever heard the recordings that were concealed and which he said,

924
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 1: I can make my memories better if you give me

925
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: a better deal. Didn't make it into any of his cases,

926
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: and those things can be found online, just terrible things,

927
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: and he gets rewarded because you did a deal with

928
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 1: the devil and you can't get out, okay. I think

929
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that the prosecutors loved using someone

930
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: like Oscar Moreal grew up in a high crime area

931
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 1: as a serial killer you wouldn't want to be around him,

932
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 1: is that this is actually a remarkable person. I wrote

933
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: this a couple of times after watching him for hours

934
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: in court. He is brilliant, he is He outraces me

935
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 1: by a trillion percent by his brain function. The federal

936
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 1: government used him in a Mexican mafia case and he

937
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 1: was answering questions before they came out of the federal

938
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: prosecutor's mouth. Repeatedly, he knew what the questions should have been,

939
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: and he actually, actually, don't you want to ask me this?

940
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 1: That's how smart and slick this guy is. He could

941
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: have been the best auto dealer salesperson at at Fletcher Jones, whatever,

942
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:16,720
Speaker 1: But this guy would sales. This guy could sell you anything.

943
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:18,720
Speaker 1: In the battle he gave with Scott at one point

944
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: he was able to defend off for hours, but eventually

945
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: Scott got him because it was hours and hours of

946
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 1: grilling him. But the few people can hold up to that.

947
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: But a person like Oscar Morial everything is he doesn't.

948
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: You'll tell you what you want to hear. In other words,

949
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 1: he's a great salesman. But and this is what's the problem.

950
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 1: So he's so good. I had all the tools in

951
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 1: the end because of this crazy situation in a death

952
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,879
Speaker 1: penalty case where Judge Goulds made a miraculous ruling, we

953
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: learned all these things about him. But when he was

954
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 1: in trial with those defendants with their lives on the line,

955
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 1: they didn't have those tools. They didn't have the evidence

956
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: to show he was lying. I had it in some

957
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 1: crazy litigation that nobody could have guessed in a hundred years.

958
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: But how's that fairness when people are in trial for

959
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:05,720
Speaker 1: their lives and the prosecutor's office turns over four pages

960
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:07,839
Speaker 1: of his two hundred pages of notes, which they did

961
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 1: in cases, or don't disclose his relationship so you can't

962
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 1: take him apart. Hey, Mr Mariel, here's this and this

963
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 1: and this. That's what you need. That's why I always

964
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 1: say it wasn't that my litigation in the Decry case

965
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 1: was particularly good. I had it all. It didn't take

966
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 1: it didn't take the headiest guy to do this. In

967
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 1: the end, we had we had accumulated all the materials

968
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: and we could play things for him that made him

969
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: ultimately given. As Scott said, it took a long time

970
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: and finally he relented, and then he started to talk

971
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: proudly about his shootings in the neighborhood and how he

972
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:41,839
Speaker 1: how he walked in. But it was hard, and those

973
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 1: other people didn't have it. And that's the key. The

974
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: key to the fairness is you've got to have the

975
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 1: evidence that you're entitled to have so you can question

976
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: witnesses effectively. I mean, that's the foundation of our system. Yeah,

977
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 1: it's and and you know that's again I come back

978
00:53:55,160 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: to Paul that Paul, Paul sees these things in way

979
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 1: that few victims can see it. And I'm still mesmerized

980
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: by it. I truly am them. Yeah, you know what,

981
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: because it's just incredible that with the pain that he

982
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 1: and his family has suffered, he can see that. You

983
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 1: still don't want this to be the case. This isn't

984
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 1: just it's just not the way to do justice. And

985
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:20,360
Speaker 1: ultimately victims pay too, because what happened on the Oscar

986
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 1: Morial's cases, well one of them, the victims think the

987
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: defendants doing life without possibility of parole. He's out in

988
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 1: a year or two. You know, for whatever you think

989
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 1: of this, that's a disaster, right, that's a disaster. Now,

990
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 1: maybe he should have he deserved to be acquitted, but

991
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: the victims, they would have said, why don't you just

992
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: give him the evidence the first time and we'll litigate

993
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 1: it the right way, or don't use him because he's unreliable.

994
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 1: But it's never good for victims either if ten years

995
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 1: down the road or fifteen down years down the road,

996
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: you're learning of evidence that should have been given over earlier.

997
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: It turns your life upside down a second time. Well,

998
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 1: that's what I've been saying, and I think I've shared

999
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: with you, Mr Moxley, like I don't understand in the

1000
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 1: case of Wozniak, he had it all right, he had

1001
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: a confession, he had the murder weapon, he had the

1002
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,880
Speaker 1: treasure trove of evidence, as he likes to say, he

1003
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 1: didn't have to frame Rachel the way he did. And

1004
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: it seemed to me like there there's a sense and

1005
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 1: correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I feel

1006
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 1: like in the case of the Orange County District Attorney's office,

1007
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 1: there's a sense of that they cherry pick justice, who

1008
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 1: gets justice and who doesn't. I'd love to hear your

1009
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: reaction to that, But that's someone who has come into

1010
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: town and covered this trial for in this case for

1011
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 1: three years. I don't know the history the way Mr

1012
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: Moxley does, or certainly you, Mr Sanders, and I can't

1013
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: speak on behalf of how you feel, Paul, but that's

1014
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:51,839
Speaker 1: my impression. It might be cherry picking. But I think

1015
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: one of the things that I learned about, particularly after

1016
00:55:55,760 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: these Wozniak and cry cases, is that they weren't focused

1017
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 1: on them to target them for cheating. They were just

1018
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: cheating against everybody anytime they wanted. They were doing because

1019
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 1: they called him capers all the time, against inmates. Um.

1020
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: And this is what they just routinely do. Nobody was.

1021
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 1: They were operating in secret, They had no management accountability,

1022
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 1: they were coming into court, they were committing perjury. They

1023
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 1: they're above the law. And it just through Scott's work here,

1024
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: it just got exposed that they took the easiest slam

1025
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: dunk definitely case and botched it. That's the embarrassment that

1026
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: Tony Roccoccus and Sheriff Hutchins have to live with. And

1027
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 1: I keep asking, how is that justice for the victims families?

1028
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,759
Speaker 1: I mean, I think you could speak best. It's not

1029
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: justice at all, it um right, It's just it's heartbreaking.

1030
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 1: And you know, to know that the respect that I

1031
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 1: had for these guys and what I thought they would

1032
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 1: produce for me and do for me, they did the

1033
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 1: complete opposite, and they they made my pain worse. And

1034
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 1: they continued to do that by not admitting what they

1035
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: did and not just holding themselves accountable. I mean, right,

1036
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 1: that's what I'm just so sorry for what you are experiencing.

1037
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: I just think it's a travesty. I want to thank

1038
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 1: you all today for being here. It means so much

1039
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: to have listeners hear the truth and know the real

1040
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 1: story behind all this, and you all three have contributed

1041
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 1: to that in such a powerful, honorable way, and I

1042
00:57:50,200 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: just thank you all, Thank you, thank you. On our

1043
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 1: remaining episodes of Sleuth, you can expect to hear from

1044
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 1: sources who will identify the full extent of others who

1045
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 1: helped Daniel Wazniak in the murders of Sam Hair and

1046
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 1: Julie Kibuishi. We'll learn about when and where Tim Wazniak

1047
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: showed up on the scene to help aid his brother

1048
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 1: Dan in the murders. And then there is Rachel's brother

1049
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 1: Noah Buffett. What and how much did no one know

1050
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: at the time of the murders. Finally, you will hear

1051
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,640
Speaker 1: from a couple of explosive surprise guests which will round

1052
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 1: out our season, ending with a live call in finale

1053
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 1: episode a finale where all our Sleuth listeners have a

1054
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 1: chance to talk to me directly with any questions, criticisms,

1055
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: or suggestions for our team. As we head into the

1056
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 1: new year with an all new season, two. Stay with

1057
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 1: us as we share all that's left of our work

1058
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: for this season of Youth and No. You can find

1059
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 1: us with the latest sleuth news at Facebook dot com,

1060
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 1: Forward Slash Sleuth podcast. If you enjoyed this episode of Sleuth,

1061
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: share it with a friend and be sure to leave

1062
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 1: a rating or review. Follow Sleuth on I Heart Radio,

1063
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 1: or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so that you

1064
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: never miss an episode.