1 00:00:15,370 --> 00:00:23,810 Speaker 1: Pushkin. She was tall and fabulously beautiful. Her background, her dancing, 2 00:00:23,810 --> 00:00:27,050 Speaker 1: and even her name were exotic. She performed in the 3 00:00:27,170 --> 00:00:30,530 Speaker 1: nude or close enough for the standards of Paris. In 4 00:00:30,690 --> 00:00:35,050 Speaker 1: nineteen oh five, she was Mata Hary, the most infamous 5 00:00:35,130 --> 00:00:40,530 Speaker 1: lady spy of the twentieth century. At least that's Matahari's reputation. 6 00:00:40,970 --> 00:00:45,010 Speaker 1: But what she actually aspired all was she a desperate 7 00:00:45,050 --> 00:00:48,730 Speaker 1: young woman fleeing an abusive husband, struggling to make a 8 00:00:48,770 --> 00:00:53,090 Speaker 1: living in a cruel world. Her real name was Margareta Zella, 9 00:00:53,250 --> 00:00:56,210 Speaker 1: but the matter Hary persona soon became much bigger and 10 00:00:56,370 --> 00:01:01,890 Speaker 1: more famous than struggling single mother Margaretta. She had many lovers, 11 00:01:02,330 --> 00:01:04,930 Speaker 1: and many of those lovers were military men of rank. 12 00:01:05,450 --> 00:01:08,650 Speaker 1: That was enough to cause whispers. And while she admitted 13 00:01:08,650 --> 00:01:12,250 Speaker 1: except money from a German official in nineteen fifteen, she 14 00:01:12,330 --> 00:01:16,530 Speaker 1: always denied supplying any useful information to the Germans. The 15 00:01:16,610 --> 00:01:19,690 Speaker 1: French didn't believe her. In the middle of the First 16 00:01:19,730 --> 00:01:23,490 Speaker 1: World War, she was arrested, accused of causing the deaths 17 00:01:23,490 --> 00:01:27,730 Speaker 1: of fifty thousand French soldiers, and late in nineteen seventeen 18 00:01:28,010 --> 00:01:32,810 Speaker 1: she was executed by a firing squad A century later, 19 00:01:33,050 --> 00:01:37,050 Speaker 1: the French government finally released secret documents concerning the case, 20 00:01:37,210 --> 00:01:41,490 Speaker 1: and doubts about her guilt only grew. Was she ever 21 00:01:41,650 --> 00:01:44,890 Speaker 1: really a spy? Or was she a beautiful woman flouting 22 00:01:44,890 --> 00:01:48,370 Speaker 1: the standards of polite society in a time of war. 23 00:01:49,290 --> 00:02:30,890 Speaker 1: I'm Tim Harford and you're listening to cautionary Tales. This 24 00:02:30,970 --> 00:02:34,690 Speaker 1: is another of our occasional cautionary conversations, and my guest 25 00:02:34,730 --> 00:02:38,810 Speaker 1: this time is Jake Halpern. Jake as a journalist, a novelist, 26 00:02:38,930 --> 00:02:43,330 Speaker 1: nonfiction writer, comic writer, radio producer, writing teacher at Yale, 27 00:02:43,690 --> 00:02:46,370 Speaker 1: and a Pulitzer Prize winner. I keep thinking there are 28 00:02:46,410 --> 00:02:48,930 Speaker 1: several very talented Jake Halpern's out there, but it turns 29 00:02:48,930 --> 00:02:51,650 Speaker 1: out they're all the same guy. But perhaps that's appropriate 30 00:02:51,690 --> 00:02:55,170 Speaker 1: because Jake is fascinated by people who live double lives. 31 00:02:55,610 --> 00:02:59,090 Speaker 1: He's the host of the Pushkin podcast deep Cover, which 32 00:02:59,170 --> 00:03:02,410 Speaker 1: is all about people assuming the persona of someone else. 33 00:03:03,090 --> 00:03:06,970 Speaker 1: Season three is deep Cover Never Seen Again, which we 34 00:03:07,050 --> 00:03:09,770 Speaker 1: will be discussing, and although we'll have some spoilers in 35 00:03:09,810 --> 00:03:13,250 Speaker 1: the conversation ahead, will try to avoid blowing everything wide open, 36 00:03:13,410 --> 00:03:15,610 Speaker 1: not least because I'm only halfway through the season. And 37 00:03:15,650 --> 00:03:19,810 Speaker 1: I am completely gripped at Jake. Welcome to Cautionary Tales. 38 00:03:19,890 --> 00:03:22,650 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me Anne, It's terrific to 39 00:03:22,850 --> 00:03:26,090 Speaker 1: be able to talk to you. And I started with Matahari, 40 00:03:26,210 --> 00:03:30,530 Speaker 1: who's really mentioned just briefly in passing in deep Cover. 41 00:03:31,090 --> 00:03:34,130 Speaker 1: She's mentioned by one of the people you interview, a 42 00:03:34,290 --> 00:03:40,330 Speaker 1: TV detective, and he doesn't seem to view this matter 43 00:03:40,370 --> 00:03:43,210 Speaker 1: Harry label with any irony at all. But it seems 44 00:03:43,210 --> 00:03:46,130 Speaker 1: ironic because there's a there's a sort of matter Harry figure, 45 00:03:46,250 --> 00:03:50,730 Speaker 1: much misunderstood woman at the heart of your reporting. And 46 00:03:50,770 --> 00:03:52,690 Speaker 1: she's called Esther, at least I think she's called Esther. 47 00:03:52,930 --> 00:03:56,130 Speaker 1: Yeah she is. She's still called Esther. So how is 48 00:03:56,130 --> 00:04:00,010 Speaker 1: it that people come to view Esther as a spy? 49 00:04:00,370 --> 00:04:03,450 Speaker 1: And what parallels do you draw between her case and 50 00:04:03,610 --> 00:04:07,370 Speaker 1: Marta Hary, because I mean, superficially they're very different. Yeah, 51 00:04:07,450 --> 00:04:11,610 Speaker 1: so there are there are some interesting parallels both Esther 52 00:04:11,970 --> 00:04:16,530 Speaker 1: and Margherita Zella, who was then dubbed Mata Hari or 53 00:04:16,610 --> 00:04:21,570 Speaker 1: basically trying to get away from bad home situations. With 54 00:04:22,410 --> 00:04:26,130 Speaker 1: Esther was that she had a bad relationship with her sister, 55 00:04:26,370 --> 00:04:30,330 Speaker 1: her mother had died, she wanted a fresh start, and 56 00:04:30,410 --> 00:04:33,570 Speaker 1: she wanted to be not found by her family. She 57 00:04:33,610 --> 00:04:37,490 Speaker 1: started taking on names that weren't hers, and in order 58 00:04:37,530 --> 00:04:40,650 Speaker 1: to function in modern society, you can't just have a name, 59 00:04:40,970 --> 00:04:43,970 Speaker 1: you also need social Security number, etc. And so she 60 00:04:44,050 --> 00:04:47,610 Speaker 1: ends up taking on the name of a young woman 61 00:04:47,930 --> 00:04:52,890 Speaker 1: who she thought was deceased and forgotten. But it turns 62 00:04:52,890 --> 00:04:56,250 Speaker 1: out that there's this detective character who's actively looking for her. 63 00:04:56,330 --> 00:04:58,850 Speaker 1: The woman's name who had died was named Brooke Henson, 64 00:04:59,170 --> 00:05:01,450 Speaker 1: and so the small town police officer in South Carolina 65 00:05:01,530 --> 00:05:05,530 Speaker 1: is looking everywhere for Brooke Henson and then he all 66 00:05:05,570 --> 00:05:07,810 Speaker 1: of a sudden gets wind that there is a Brooke 67 00:05:07,850 --> 00:05:11,810 Speaker 1: Henson who's enrolled at Columbia University up in New York City. 68 00:05:11,930 --> 00:05:14,610 Speaker 1: This was seven years after she disappeared, and he starts 69 00:05:15,410 --> 00:05:19,410 Speaker 1: tracking her down and trying to figure out who is this. 70 00:05:19,490 --> 00:05:21,810 Speaker 1: Is this the real Broken Center? Is this an impersonator? 71 00:05:22,210 --> 00:05:24,970 Speaker 1: And in the course of his investigation he comes to 72 00:05:25,010 --> 00:05:29,010 Speaker 1: suspect that she's a spy, and this idea, which is 73 00:05:29,050 --> 00:05:32,130 Speaker 1: kind of half baked, ends up taking hold and creating 74 00:05:32,930 --> 00:05:37,970 Speaker 1: this whole juggernaut of a story about this alleged spy 75 00:05:38,170 --> 00:05:40,650 Speaker 1: was on the run. It is an astonishing story. I mean, 76 00:05:40,810 --> 00:05:45,370 Speaker 1: the characters that you're talking to are remarkable. This small 77 00:05:45,410 --> 00:05:48,570 Speaker 1: town cop who's just devoting way too much attention to 78 00:05:48,650 --> 00:05:52,370 Speaker 1: this case. One of the people you describe is I 79 00:05:52,370 --> 00:05:55,890 Speaker 1: think called the gem Finder. He's responsible for escalating this 80 00:05:56,010 --> 00:05:59,130 Speaker 1: story about Esther and this suspicion that she's a spy, 81 00:05:59,850 --> 00:06:03,890 Speaker 1: escalating it up the media food chain, which is a 82 00:06:03,930 --> 00:06:07,690 Speaker 1: really striking and horrible image. So talk us through that 83 00:06:07,810 --> 00:06:12,370 Speaker 1: process and how it unfolds. Yeah, so it really does escalate. 84 00:06:12,730 --> 00:06:15,210 Speaker 1: What happens is if you remember, we have this small 85 00:06:15,250 --> 00:06:18,730 Speaker 1: town detective in the mountains of South Carolina who's been 86 00:06:18,770 --> 00:06:21,130 Speaker 1: trying to find out what happened to a local young 87 00:06:21,130 --> 00:06:24,170 Speaker 1: woman who's gone missing, Brooke Henson. Then he gets win 88 00:06:24,250 --> 00:06:28,410 Speaker 1: that there's a Brook Henson of the same age, same name, 89 00:06:29,410 --> 00:06:33,170 Speaker 1: social security number, et cetera, who's at Columbia, and as 90 00:06:33,170 --> 00:06:36,850 Speaker 1: he starts to track her down, she vanishes from Columbia, 91 00:06:36,890 --> 00:06:38,930 Speaker 1: and as he pokes around, he finds out that she 92 00:06:39,010 --> 00:06:42,530 Speaker 1: had dated two West Point cadets and a Naval Academy midshipman. 93 00:06:42,930 --> 00:06:47,730 Speaker 1: She appeared to be a master at creating these false identities, 94 00:06:47,850 --> 00:06:50,530 Speaker 1: and he thinks she's a spy, although it's it's really 95 00:06:50,570 --> 00:06:54,210 Speaker 1: kind of a half baked theory. And at some point 96 00:06:54,250 --> 00:06:56,930 Speaker 1: he gets interviewed by the local media down in South 97 00:06:56,970 --> 00:06:59,690 Speaker 1: Carolina and puts forth this theory that she might be 98 00:06:59,730 --> 00:07:02,970 Speaker 1: a spy. And this guy, Tom Colbert the gem Finder, 99 00:07:03,370 --> 00:07:05,330 Speaker 1: gets wind of this, and he is kind of a 100 00:07:05,370 --> 00:07:08,930 Speaker 1: trafficker in stories, a kind of very resourceful middleman who 101 00:07:09,130 --> 00:07:14,770 Speaker 1: takes these small market stories from little towns and brings 102 00:07:14,770 --> 00:07:16,770 Speaker 1: them up the media food chain and sells them for 103 00:07:16,810 --> 00:07:22,290 Speaker 1: a finder's fee. And so Colbert the Gemfinder gets winded. 104 00:07:22,330 --> 00:07:26,770 Speaker 1: This small town detective interviews him, here's his theories, and 105 00:07:26,850 --> 00:07:31,330 Speaker 1: writes up a press release based on this, and within 106 00:07:31,690 --> 00:07:33,610 Speaker 1: three days it's on the front page of the New 107 00:07:33,650 --> 00:07:37,130 Speaker 1: York Post, and not long after that it becomes the 108 00:07:37,170 --> 00:07:42,010 Speaker 1: basis for a kind of tabloidy news story in which 109 00:07:42,410 --> 00:07:46,130 Speaker 1: a detective is hired and is trying to track her down, 110 00:07:46,370 --> 00:07:48,890 Speaker 1: all predicated on this theory that it hasn't really been 111 00:07:49,370 --> 00:07:53,290 Speaker 1: fully vetted, and that turns out to be wrong, that 112 00:07:53,410 --> 00:07:56,730 Speaker 1: she's a spy, but that doesn't really matter because the 113 00:07:56,810 --> 00:07:59,650 Speaker 1: media has kind of seized upon it, because the narrative 114 00:07:59,770 --> 00:08:02,410 Speaker 1: has this kind of it's kind of a trope, or 115 00:08:02,450 --> 00:08:04,170 Speaker 1: it's kind of something that's deep in our mind. It's 116 00:08:04,170 --> 00:08:07,410 Speaker 1: the Matahari's story, right, this idea that she's this seductress 117 00:08:07,730 --> 00:08:10,570 Speaker 1: or what have you, and the kind of genies out 118 00:08:10,570 --> 00:08:13,130 Speaker 1: of the battle or the story is out, there's kind 119 00:08:13,130 --> 00:08:14,730 Speaker 1: of no taking it back, and it takes on a 120 00:08:14,770 --> 00:08:17,730 Speaker 1: life of its own. When it takes on a life 121 00:08:17,730 --> 00:08:20,570 Speaker 1: of its own, but it is helped in taking on 122 00:08:20,610 --> 00:08:25,970 Speaker 1: a life of its own by these various media entrepreneurs 123 00:08:26,010 --> 00:08:28,250 Speaker 1: or journalistic entrepreneurs, I'm not sure quite what you would 124 00:08:28,250 --> 00:08:33,090 Speaker 1: call them. So you start with overenthusiastic small tower detective. 125 00:08:33,530 --> 00:08:36,370 Speaker 1: He has this speculation. His speculation then gets to the 126 00:08:36,370 --> 00:08:40,690 Speaker 1: local news. It's then picked up by Colbert. He then 127 00:08:40,890 --> 00:08:44,090 Speaker 1: writes it up and he writes his very sensational press release. 128 00:08:44,130 --> 00:08:47,370 Speaker 1: So he's kind of really really seasoning the pot. He's 129 00:08:47,410 --> 00:08:50,090 Speaker 1: adding the chili, he's adding his spices, he's making it 130 00:08:50,130 --> 00:08:53,130 Speaker 1: more and more exciting. Then it gets to the tabloids, 131 00:08:53,170 --> 00:08:55,730 Speaker 1: as you say, when it gets on TV, then they're 132 00:08:55,770 --> 00:08:57,570 Speaker 1: adding more to it. So they have to hire their 133 00:08:57,570 --> 00:09:00,690 Speaker 1: own detective, and their own detective has to chase around 134 00:09:01,170 --> 00:09:05,370 Speaker 1: trying to find esther, but also he's kind of adding 135 00:09:05,410 --> 00:09:08,290 Speaker 1: his own theories, his own ideas, and so this whole 136 00:09:08,290 --> 00:09:10,650 Speaker 1: thing is much much bigger than the original story, which 137 00:09:10,730 --> 00:09:12,810 Speaker 1: is just as this girl and he's doing some slightly 138 00:09:12,850 --> 00:09:15,410 Speaker 1: strange things. Right, There's all kinds of small things that 139 00:09:15,450 --> 00:09:18,130 Speaker 1: get completely conflated. Well, first of all, that she's dated 140 00:09:18,170 --> 00:09:20,970 Speaker 1: these West Point cadets. I mean, if you stopped and 141 00:09:21,010 --> 00:09:24,610 Speaker 1: thought about that for a second. Within this forty eight 142 00:09:24,650 --> 00:09:27,730 Speaker 1: hours story about the west Point Cadets, there's a moment 143 00:09:27,890 --> 00:09:30,370 Speaker 1: where they say, oh, yeah, she was inquiring with one 144 00:09:30,370 --> 00:09:32,890 Speaker 1: of them, but what they were learning in class, And 145 00:09:32,930 --> 00:09:36,890 Speaker 1: then this was presented as like evidence of espionage occurring. 146 00:09:36,930 --> 00:09:38,930 Speaker 1: But when I talked, I talked to both of the 147 00:09:38,970 --> 00:09:41,690 Speaker 1: former West Point cadets and they said, look, this is ridiculous. 148 00:09:42,130 --> 00:09:44,890 Speaker 1: This doesn't require like anything more than a closer look 149 00:09:44,970 --> 00:09:47,850 Speaker 1: to see. How could anything being discussed in an open 150 00:09:47,930 --> 00:09:53,210 Speaker 1: classroom for training cadets at West Point constitute sensitive military 151 00:09:53,290 --> 00:09:57,570 Speaker 1: secrets that would really indicate espionage. I mean, anyone that 152 00:09:57,650 --> 00:09:59,850 Speaker 1: kind of looked this for a second would be able 153 00:09:59,850 --> 00:10:01,890 Speaker 1: to kind of say, this doesn't quite hold up. Or 154 00:10:02,130 --> 00:10:04,610 Speaker 1: there's one moment in the instant messages back and forth 155 00:10:04,650 --> 00:10:06,370 Speaker 1: between her and one of the cadets it was her 156 00:10:06,370 --> 00:10:09,530 Speaker 1: boyfriend at the time, where she jokingly says, oh, yes, 157 00:10:09,570 --> 00:10:12,130 Speaker 1: I've always wanted to be a James Bond character, and 158 00:10:12,130 --> 00:10:14,490 Speaker 1: then this is created about as proof positive that that's 159 00:10:14,530 --> 00:10:16,330 Speaker 1: precisely what she is. By the way, if you were 160 00:10:16,450 --> 00:10:18,530 Speaker 1: James Bond, would you ever say that that's what you 161 00:10:18,530 --> 00:10:21,090 Speaker 1: wanted to be? Although James Bond, of course does constantly 162 00:10:21,090 --> 00:10:24,130 Speaker 1: introduce himself as James Bond. That's true. That fair enough, 163 00:10:24,170 --> 00:10:27,450 Speaker 1: fair enough, But I mean it's a striking cautionar hail 164 00:10:27,570 --> 00:10:33,010 Speaker 1: in the way that are preconceived narrative shapes what we 165 00:10:33,090 --> 00:10:34,970 Speaker 1: then perceive and what we pay attention to, him what 166 00:10:35,010 --> 00:10:38,250 Speaker 1: we don't pay attention to, Because if I were to 167 00:10:38,290 --> 00:10:40,890 Speaker 1: tell you, well, there's this woman and she's dating someone 168 00:10:40,930 --> 00:10:45,930 Speaker 1: from West Point, Okay, fine, whatever, Oh and she asks 169 00:10:46,010 --> 00:10:49,450 Speaker 1: him about what he's learning, Well, I mean, isn't that 170 00:10:49,450 --> 00:10:53,250 Speaker 1: called a relationship? People normally ask the people they're dating 171 00:10:53,290 --> 00:10:55,770 Speaker 1: about what they're doing in their lives. That doesn't mean 172 00:10:55,770 --> 00:10:58,090 Speaker 1: you're a spy. When the host of the forty eight 173 00:10:58,090 --> 00:11:00,970 Speaker 1: Hours show is inteviewing the detective it's tracking or down 174 00:11:01,010 --> 00:11:04,050 Speaker 1: and says how many men has she gone through with 175 00:11:04,170 --> 00:11:08,610 Speaker 1: the implication that she was just kind of this operative 176 00:11:08,650 --> 00:11:13,330 Speaker 1: who these relationships were merely means to extract classroom data. 177 00:11:13,370 --> 00:11:15,490 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know what, but what when you 178 00:11:15,530 --> 00:11:18,730 Speaker 1: actually talked to the two cadets, these were like, these 179 00:11:18,730 --> 00:11:21,570 Speaker 1: were real relationships that went on for a long period 180 00:11:21,610 --> 00:11:24,650 Speaker 1: of time, But it was this presumption that they were 181 00:11:24,970 --> 00:11:28,130 Speaker 1: that she was this operator who was only interested in 182 00:11:28,170 --> 00:11:30,890 Speaker 1: men to extract some value from them because she was 183 00:11:30,970 --> 00:11:35,770 Speaker 1: calculating and using her sexual wiles to entrap them, all 184 00:11:35,850 --> 00:11:39,130 Speaker 1: of which plays into various spy movies and TV shows 185 00:11:39,170 --> 00:11:42,610 Speaker 1: that we've seen. But even a kind of a cursory 186 00:11:42,810 --> 00:11:46,090 Speaker 1: review of the underlying facts didn't didn't prop it up. 187 00:11:46,450 --> 00:11:51,330 Speaker 1: So I'm curious as to what this suggests about our 188 00:11:51,450 --> 00:11:54,290 Speaker 1: cultural obsessions and fears. And there's clearly there's a dose 189 00:11:54,330 --> 00:11:57,210 Speaker 1: of misogyny in there, this idea that well, you know, 190 00:11:57,890 --> 00:12:01,890 Speaker 1: there's a sexually active young woman that's not okay, that 191 00:12:02,010 --> 00:12:04,610 Speaker 1: can't be just accepted in its own right. There's this 192 00:12:04,890 --> 00:12:08,650 Speaker 1: panic about national security. I mean, what else? What else 193 00:12:08,770 --> 00:12:11,850 Speaker 1: is going on in this kind of weird mix of 194 00:12:12,010 --> 00:12:16,050 Speaker 1: obsessions that cable TV got so excited about. I think 195 00:12:16,090 --> 00:12:18,930 Speaker 1: you're right. I think there's clearly some misogyny at play here. 196 00:12:19,250 --> 00:12:21,050 Speaker 1: I think it plays into some of the kind of 197 00:12:21,050 --> 00:12:23,930 Speaker 1: tropes of spy movies that we see where there is 198 00:12:23,930 --> 00:12:26,210 Speaker 1: a kind of honey pot or kind of you know, 199 00:12:26,250 --> 00:12:31,090 Speaker 1: this sexy woman who's seducing and kind of manipulating men 200 00:12:31,330 --> 00:12:34,170 Speaker 1: to get their secrets and compromise them. We've all seen 201 00:12:34,250 --> 00:12:38,290 Speaker 1: countless shows like that, and I think that what happens 202 00:12:38,530 --> 00:12:43,330 Speaker 1: as storytellers is that we recognize that that is attractive, 203 00:12:43,570 --> 00:12:46,170 Speaker 1: that it's a story that people like to hear, that 204 00:12:46,490 --> 00:12:49,490 Speaker 1: confirms these kind of storylines that we read about in fiction. Oh, 205 00:12:49,530 --> 00:12:52,290 Speaker 1: but this is a true story that proves that that happens. 206 00:12:53,170 --> 00:12:56,610 Speaker 1: But I think that what we have to do, is storytellers, 207 00:12:57,130 --> 00:13:01,970 Speaker 1: is resist that impulse to just follow that into the 208 00:13:02,010 --> 00:13:03,970 Speaker 1: fictional realm of which we think we know it. I'm 209 00:13:03,970 --> 00:13:07,210 Speaker 1: friends with another journalist named Jack hit who always says, 210 00:13:08,730 --> 00:13:12,850 Speaker 1: there's a moment in a story where there's dissonance, where 211 00:13:12,850 --> 00:13:17,690 Speaker 1: you're reporting differs from the story you were expecting to find, 212 00:13:18,810 --> 00:13:22,250 Speaker 1: and that is the moment that you've actually discovered your story. 213 00:13:22,610 --> 00:13:24,970 Speaker 1: Let me just explain what I mean by that. So 214 00:13:25,250 --> 00:13:28,010 Speaker 1: when I pitch a story. As a journalist, it's usually 215 00:13:28,050 --> 00:13:30,970 Speaker 1: being pitched on impartial information. I know that there's a 216 00:13:30,970 --> 00:13:34,370 Speaker 1: woman who's used many identities, I know that she's due Columbia. 217 00:13:34,930 --> 00:13:37,650 Speaker 1: And then the part of the story that's unknown, the 218 00:13:37,810 --> 00:13:42,410 Speaker 1: terra incognita of the story. I'm filled in by assumptions, 219 00:13:42,450 --> 00:13:45,330 Speaker 1: and those assumptions are often derived from similar stories that 220 00:13:45,330 --> 00:13:48,050 Speaker 1: I've seen often in the realm of fiction. So I 221 00:13:48,090 --> 00:13:50,090 Speaker 1: think the story is going to go that way. But 222 00:13:50,170 --> 00:13:52,650 Speaker 1: at some point along the course of reporting, I guess 223 00:13:52,650 --> 00:13:54,450 Speaker 1: you could say this is true for law enforcement as 224 00:13:54,450 --> 00:13:58,450 Speaker 1: well as journalists. Is that you find information that runs 225 00:13:58,530 --> 00:14:01,690 Speaker 1: counter to the story you're expecting, counter to the cliche 226 00:14:01,850 --> 00:14:04,490 Speaker 1: that you have kind of come to know, and then 227 00:14:04,570 --> 00:14:07,010 Speaker 1: you're at this pivotal moment. How do you deal with 228 00:14:07,010 --> 00:14:09,530 Speaker 1: this dissonance? Do you kind of ignore for it and 229 00:14:09,690 --> 00:14:12,010 Speaker 1: plow ahead with the story that you think the audience 230 00:14:12,090 --> 00:14:14,530 Speaker 1: wants and the story you sit out to report, or 231 00:14:14,530 --> 00:14:17,650 Speaker 1: do you pause for a moment and say, Huh, what's 232 00:14:17,690 --> 00:14:20,210 Speaker 1: the real story here? And is it actually possible that 233 00:14:20,250 --> 00:14:22,850 Speaker 1: it's more interesting and more original than the story that 234 00:14:22,890 --> 00:14:24,930 Speaker 1: I had in my head? And I think that what 235 00:14:25,010 --> 00:14:28,050 Speaker 1: happened is is folks got to that juncture and instead 236 00:14:28,090 --> 00:14:32,130 Speaker 1: of kind of pausing, they just said, oh, well, yes, sure, 237 00:14:32,130 --> 00:14:34,490 Speaker 1: there may be some indications of this story isn't exactly 238 00:14:34,530 --> 00:14:35,890 Speaker 1: what I thought it was going to be, but we're 239 00:14:35,930 --> 00:14:38,410 Speaker 1: just going to push ahead with it. And that's that's 240 00:14:38,410 --> 00:14:41,610 Speaker 1: what I see as the storyteller at work here. So 241 00:14:41,650 --> 00:14:44,570 Speaker 1: this is very human tendency I think that we see 242 00:14:44,810 --> 00:14:49,290 Speaker 1: in journalists and we see sometimes in the police as well, 243 00:14:49,330 --> 00:14:58,690 Speaker 1: of moving along a certain preconceived track and not being 244 00:14:58,730 --> 00:15:01,650 Speaker 1: able to stop and say, hang on a minute, Are 245 00:15:01,650 --> 00:15:03,370 Speaker 1: these really the questions I want to be asking? Is 246 00:15:03,370 --> 00:15:04,930 Speaker 1: this really what I want to be doing? Do I 247 00:15:04,970 --> 00:15:08,130 Speaker 1: need to rethink the whole premise of this? And it 248 00:15:08,170 --> 00:15:10,690 Speaker 1: sounds that you got your D's voice in your ear 249 00:15:10,770 --> 00:15:13,170 Speaker 1: when you reach this critical moment, and not all of 250 00:15:13,250 --> 00:15:16,970 Speaker 1: us have that. But there's somebody in the story who 251 00:15:17,010 --> 00:15:22,850 Speaker 1: has this inability to stop and rethink almost more than 252 00:15:23,090 --> 00:15:25,810 Speaker 1: any of the characters that we've discussed the media of 253 00:15:25,810 --> 00:15:28,610 Speaker 1: the police, and that's as to herself. I mean, I'm 254 00:15:28,650 --> 00:15:35,650 Speaker 1: really struck by how did you make some questionable decisions 255 00:15:35,650 --> 00:15:38,610 Speaker 1: early on? But they're quite small things. Talk me through 256 00:15:38,730 --> 00:15:41,730 Speaker 1: how it escalates to the point where anybody at all 257 00:15:41,810 --> 00:15:44,010 Speaker 1: can think that she's a spied to a point where 258 00:15:44,050 --> 00:15:47,170 Speaker 1: she's on America's most wanted So just to kind of 259 00:15:47,490 --> 00:15:50,290 Speaker 1: I'm going to break it down, let's start. Let's start 260 00:15:50,290 --> 00:15:52,650 Speaker 1: with esther. I mean, this is something that I've gone 261 00:15:52,650 --> 00:15:56,930 Speaker 1: over with her so many times, so I'm not going 262 00:15:56,970 --> 00:15:58,690 Speaker 1: to only spoilers you. I'm gonna try to think about 263 00:15:58,690 --> 00:16:01,010 Speaker 1: how I can explain I find her years later, right, 264 00:16:01,090 --> 00:16:03,410 Speaker 1: let's just put it that way, and spent the better 265 00:16:03,450 --> 00:16:06,370 Speaker 1: part of a week kind of talking to her and 266 00:16:06,410 --> 00:16:08,890 Speaker 1: having her talk me through her story and how this 267 00:16:09,770 --> 00:16:13,770 Speaker 1: kind of escalated. And so I think that what happens 268 00:16:13,850 --> 00:16:16,650 Speaker 1: is is the detectives and the media tends to see 269 00:16:16,650 --> 00:16:19,650 Speaker 1: this as a story of a woman with a master plan, 270 00:16:20,530 --> 00:16:23,370 Speaker 1: but there's never quite a good explanation of what she's 271 00:16:23,450 --> 00:16:26,250 Speaker 1: up to. She doesn't appear to be taking money the 272 00:16:26,370 --> 00:16:28,330 Speaker 1: times that she gets into Columbia. She's trying to get 273 00:16:28,330 --> 00:16:30,490 Speaker 1: an education, but that doesn't really make sense why you 274 00:16:30,490 --> 00:16:32,010 Speaker 1: would want to get a degree in a name that 275 00:16:32,130 --> 00:16:35,170 Speaker 1: wasn't yours. So from the outside, and I feel sympathetic 276 00:16:35,250 --> 00:16:37,330 Speaker 1: to law enforcement here, they're looking at this and they're 277 00:16:37,370 --> 00:16:41,570 Speaker 1: trying to come up with some sort of overarching explanation 278 00:16:42,250 --> 00:16:45,170 Speaker 1: that makes logical sense for why she's doing what she's doing, 279 00:16:45,290 --> 00:16:47,530 Speaker 1: and the spy fear, even though it has a lot 280 00:16:47,570 --> 00:16:50,970 Speaker 1: of problems, at least attempts to make sense of it. 281 00:16:51,090 --> 00:16:54,690 Speaker 1: So with Esther, the real reason ends up being like 282 00:16:54,970 --> 00:16:58,410 Speaker 1: much more commonplace in the sense that she wants to 283 00:16:58,450 --> 00:17:00,530 Speaker 1: get away from her family, she wants to get a 284 00:17:00,570 --> 00:17:04,250 Speaker 1: fresh start, and the series of choices that she makes 285 00:17:04,370 --> 00:17:07,770 Speaker 1: kind of incrementally lead her deeper and deeper into the problem. 286 00:17:08,050 --> 00:17:10,690 Speaker 1: So initially she's just going by another name just so 287 00:17:11,970 --> 00:17:15,130 Speaker 1: no one finds her, but she realizes that, you know, 288 00:17:15,210 --> 00:17:18,650 Speaker 1: she can't get a job without a social Security number. 289 00:17:18,730 --> 00:17:20,930 Speaker 1: She needs an ID so she can drive the car. 290 00:17:21,530 --> 00:17:24,410 Speaker 1: And eventually she decides she wants to take classes at 291 00:17:24,410 --> 00:17:27,770 Speaker 1: a school, and you need social Security number to do this, 292 00:17:27,930 --> 00:17:32,210 Speaker 1: and so she makes a series of incremental decisions to 293 00:17:32,290 --> 00:17:35,690 Speaker 1: kind of go deeper into the realm of having an 294 00:17:35,690 --> 00:17:38,410 Speaker 1: identity that offers her protection. It's not all at once, 295 00:17:39,010 --> 00:17:42,450 Speaker 1: and by increments she ends up deeper and deeper into it, 296 00:17:42,810 --> 00:17:45,690 Speaker 1: and then people start knowing her as this other person, 297 00:17:45,850 --> 00:17:50,050 Speaker 1: and then going back becomes more and more difficult because 298 00:17:50,050 --> 00:17:53,330 Speaker 1: she's built this other life, is this other person, and 299 00:17:53,410 --> 00:17:56,450 Speaker 1: it's going pretty pretty well. But in the back of 300 00:17:56,450 --> 00:18:02,610 Speaker 1: her mind she is aware that this is problematic. She 301 00:18:02,690 --> 00:18:06,090 Speaker 1: just doesn't see a way out of it the deeper 302 00:18:06,130 --> 00:18:08,810 Speaker 1: that she gets into it. And meanwhile, law enforcement is 303 00:18:08,850 --> 00:18:12,010 Speaker 1: seeing all this and thinking like there must be something 304 00:18:12,090 --> 00:18:14,570 Speaker 1: very sinister at play here. To answer the second part 305 00:18:14,570 --> 00:18:18,170 Speaker 1: of your question, after the media kind of really escalates this, 306 00:18:18,570 --> 00:18:23,730 Speaker 1: it puts pressure on law enforcement to find her, and 307 00:18:23,850 --> 00:18:26,690 Speaker 1: eventually she does go on a top ten most wanted 308 00:18:26,730 --> 00:18:29,770 Speaker 1: list of the Secret Service. So these things are kind 309 00:18:29,770 --> 00:18:33,530 Speaker 1: of inner play. It is incredible. The term of art 310 00:18:33,610 --> 00:18:36,890 Speaker 1: I think in psychology is escalation of commitment to a 311 00:18:36,970 --> 00:18:40,170 Speaker 1: losing course of action. I talked about this once in 312 00:18:40,210 --> 00:18:42,730 Speaker 1: a portion Mey tale about the cotton Ley Fairies, which 313 00:18:42,770 --> 00:18:45,570 Speaker 1: is one of my favorite portionmu tales. It's all about 314 00:18:46,130 --> 00:18:51,210 Speaker 1: how Arthur Conan Doyle, the creator of Sherlock Holmes, believed 315 00:18:51,290 --> 00:18:53,450 Speaker 1: that there were fairies at the bottom of the garden 316 00:18:53,490 --> 00:18:56,690 Speaker 1: because Noel were these photos of the fairies, and of 317 00:18:56,690 --> 00:18:59,930 Speaker 1: course the photos were faked. And when I talk about 318 00:19:00,770 --> 00:19:03,890 Speaker 1: the cotton Ley Fairies, I often talk about so Arthur 319 00:19:03,930 --> 00:19:07,170 Speaker 1: and what Conan Doyle was thinking and why he was fooled, 320 00:19:07,170 --> 00:19:09,970 Speaker 1: and his motivated reasoning and the various things. But actually 321 00:19:10,450 --> 00:19:13,650 Speaker 1: one of the most interesting people in that story is 322 00:19:13,650 --> 00:19:18,090 Speaker 1: Elsie Wright, the teenage girl who fakes the photos, and 323 00:19:18,090 --> 00:19:21,410 Speaker 1: why she fakes the photos, and why she keeps lying 324 00:19:21,450 --> 00:19:24,170 Speaker 1: about it in the end for almost her entire life 325 00:19:24,250 --> 00:19:26,370 Speaker 1: until she's old enough to be a great grandmother. Think 326 00:19:26,370 --> 00:19:28,610 Speaker 1: she's in her seventies or in her eighties when she 327 00:19:28,690 --> 00:19:32,250 Speaker 1: finally confesses that she's faked these photos, And it's because 328 00:19:32,250 --> 00:19:35,010 Speaker 1: it's escalated that. Initially the photos were kind of a 329 00:19:35,010 --> 00:19:39,570 Speaker 1: family joke. She wanted to slightly embarrass her parents because 330 00:19:39,570 --> 00:19:44,050 Speaker 1: they'd been mean to her cousin. But then her mother 331 00:19:44,090 --> 00:19:48,250 Speaker 1: showed one of these photographs to a spiritualist society, and 332 00:19:48,250 --> 00:19:50,970 Speaker 1: then the photographs got picked up by this major spiritualism 333 00:19:51,010 --> 00:19:53,410 Speaker 1: and they got to Conan Doyle and Knanda starts writing 334 00:19:53,410 --> 00:19:56,570 Speaker 1: about it and just gets bigger and bigger and bigger 335 00:19:56,810 --> 00:20:00,490 Speaker 1: and bigger, and it's one of the most famous lies 336 00:20:01,410 --> 00:20:05,930 Speaker 1: of the decade. And she only ever intended to play 337 00:20:05,930 --> 00:20:07,490 Speaker 1: a joke on her mum and dad, who, by the way, 338 00:20:07,490 --> 00:20:09,930 Speaker 1: they weren't fooleder certainly her father was. There was no 339 00:20:10,010 --> 00:20:13,210 Speaker 1: point where she could pull the plug, because each time 340 00:20:13,850 --> 00:20:16,410 Speaker 1: there was an opportunity to confess, it seemed that it 341 00:20:16,410 --> 00:20:19,210 Speaker 1: would be a catastrophe, and in the end she had 342 00:20:19,250 --> 00:20:23,770 Speaker 1: to wait until everybody was long dead before she finally confessed. Hmm, 343 00:20:24,610 --> 00:20:27,010 Speaker 1: that sounds like a version, very much a version of this, 344 00:20:27,050 --> 00:20:30,890 Speaker 1: And I think it's it's only by kind of thinking about, 345 00:20:31,050 --> 00:20:35,370 Speaker 1: especially those early incremental decisions to stick to the lie, 346 00:20:36,610 --> 00:20:40,130 Speaker 1: start to make sense that you're like, Okay, it's it's 347 00:20:40,170 --> 00:20:42,250 Speaker 1: easier just to say yes, or maybe it doesn't seem 348 00:20:42,290 --> 00:20:44,770 Speaker 1: like a big deal. This is eventually going to become 349 00:20:44,770 --> 00:20:48,090 Speaker 1: this dis juggernaut of a thing. No, I think that's 350 00:20:48,570 --> 00:20:50,650 Speaker 1: I think that that very much encapsulates the kind of 351 00:20:50,690 --> 00:20:55,850 Speaker 1: situation that Esther was in. Cautionary tales will be back 352 00:20:55,930 --> 00:21:05,690 Speaker 1: after this short break. I am struck by the difficulties 353 00:21:06,090 --> 00:21:11,690 Speaker 1: of maintaining a life. You know, you've studied several of 354 00:21:11,690 --> 00:21:14,650 Speaker 1: these people, you've created three seasons of deep cover. So 355 00:21:14,730 --> 00:21:17,570 Speaker 1: what have you learned about what it means to try 356 00:21:17,610 --> 00:21:19,890 Speaker 1: to lead a double life? Well, I mean, I'll start 357 00:21:19,970 --> 00:21:23,650 Speaker 1: by saying something very obvious, but it's it's hugely stressful. 358 00:21:23,970 --> 00:21:26,170 Speaker 1: I think it's something that people are curious about and 359 00:21:26,210 --> 00:21:31,290 Speaker 1: maybe even romanticized, especially the undercover law enforcement officer. But 360 00:21:32,050 --> 00:21:34,250 Speaker 1: I think it basically reeks havoc on your life, and 361 00:21:34,290 --> 00:21:36,970 Speaker 1: you're living in like more or less a constant state 362 00:21:37,730 --> 00:21:41,050 Speaker 1: of anxiety that you're going to be exposed. That's certainly 363 00:21:41,050 --> 00:21:43,970 Speaker 1: the case for the three seasons of the show. Now 364 00:21:43,970 --> 00:21:46,010 Speaker 1: it's possible that there are people out there that are 365 00:21:46,010 --> 00:21:49,450 Speaker 1: just pathological liars and are able to kind of lie 366 00:21:49,530 --> 00:21:54,570 Speaker 1: without remorse fear, But it's a tremendous amount of information 367 00:21:54,610 --> 00:21:58,690 Speaker 1: to keep track of in your head constantly, and to 368 00:21:58,730 --> 00:22:01,850 Speaker 1: be processing which person are you, which name do you 369 00:22:01,890 --> 00:22:03,970 Speaker 1: respond to at the airport, what are the things you 370 00:22:04,010 --> 00:22:06,490 Speaker 1: can or cannot say, what are the tells? And then 371 00:22:06,610 --> 00:22:09,490 Speaker 1: this idea of who are you know? Esther claim? In 372 00:22:09,570 --> 00:22:12,850 Speaker 1: her case, she says she was always the same person, 373 00:22:13,170 --> 00:22:16,650 Speaker 1: that what she was looking for was a fresh start, 374 00:22:16,770 --> 00:22:20,490 Speaker 1: and that the identities, the names of social security numbers, 375 00:22:20,530 --> 00:22:23,130 Speaker 1: even the kind of general trappings of the backstory of 376 00:22:23,170 --> 00:22:25,050 Speaker 1: where she grew up what are prayed that this was 377 00:22:25,090 --> 00:22:27,690 Speaker 1: all just a kind of a costume that she was wearing, 378 00:22:27,730 --> 00:22:30,530 Speaker 1: but underneath, fundamentally she was the same person, just looking 379 00:22:30,530 --> 00:22:33,330 Speaker 1: for a fresh opportunity. Whereas, like with the first season 380 00:22:33,370 --> 00:22:38,770 Speaker 1: of deep Cover that I followed, this this FBI officer 381 00:22:38,890 --> 00:22:43,610 Speaker 1: from Detroit who then is basically impersonating a kind of 382 00:22:43,970 --> 00:22:47,490 Speaker 1: high rolling drug kingpin type character, and for him, the 383 00:22:47,530 --> 00:22:50,770 Speaker 1: two personas were radically different, and then it of course 384 00:22:50,810 --> 00:22:54,570 Speaker 1: spills over into his kind of personal life. But even 385 00:22:54,610 --> 00:22:58,410 Speaker 1: with him, I think, actually, now that I stopped and 386 00:22:58,450 --> 00:23:00,930 Speaker 1: think about it, he was a risk taker and he 387 00:23:01,050 --> 00:23:03,970 Speaker 1: liked the risk of it. And Esther also describes herself 388 00:23:04,010 --> 00:23:06,690 Speaker 1: as a risk taker. You know, does that mean there's 389 00:23:06,730 --> 00:23:10,130 Speaker 1: some appeal to this? I don't know, but I don't 390 00:23:10,170 --> 00:23:12,610 Speaker 1: think so in Esther's case, I think so. In Ned 391 00:23:12,650 --> 00:23:16,010 Speaker 1: the undercover ABI agent from the first season, and there's 392 00:23:16,010 --> 00:23:19,970 Speaker 1: certainly moments where she makes some very impulsive decisions and 393 00:23:20,570 --> 00:23:23,370 Speaker 1: she confesses to you that she's, you know, she panicked 394 00:23:23,410 --> 00:23:25,730 Speaker 1: and she's not very good in these festival situations. That's 395 00:23:25,770 --> 00:23:29,690 Speaker 1: what she says. That's why she does these things that 396 00:23:30,370 --> 00:23:32,130 Speaker 1: from the outside you go, that is going to make 397 00:23:32,170 --> 00:23:35,050 Speaker 1: everything so much worse. But she must have been smart 398 00:23:35,210 --> 00:23:37,730 Speaker 1: because she got into an IVY League school, albeit pretending 399 00:23:37,770 --> 00:23:39,850 Speaker 1: to be somebody else. So I mean, do you have 400 00:23:39,930 --> 00:23:42,290 Speaker 1: to be smart to lead a double life. I think so. 401 00:23:43,130 --> 00:23:46,770 Speaker 1: I think Estra is extremely smart. And I won't do 402 00:23:46,810 --> 00:23:49,370 Speaker 1: a spoiler because you haven't gotten to the sixth episode, 403 00:23:49,410 --> 00:23:51,570 Speaker 1: but when you see I know, and I'm completely hooked 404 00:23:51,570 --> 00:23:53,690 Speaker 1: by the way, I'm completely hooked. I'm loving it. I'll 405 00:23:53,690 --> 00:23:55,370 Speaker 1: give you like a little teaser, which is when you 406 00:23:55,370 --> 00:23:58,810 Speaker 1: find out where she is now, it's only further proof 407 00:23:58,850 --> 00:24:04,090 Speaker 1: of just how bright and capable she is. So yeah, 408 00:24:04,130 --> 00:24:05,570 Speaker 1: I think you have to be really smart. I think 409 00:24:05,570 --> 00:24:08,330 Speaker 1: if you're not smart, you know, you're either dead in 410 00:24:08,370 --> 00:24:10,930 Speaker 1: the case of the under cover agent swimming with the 411 00:24:10,970 --> 00:24:13,810 Speaker 1: fishes or whatever at the back of some boat, or 412 00:24:13,850 --> 00:24:17,890 Speaker 1: you're just immediately exposed. And Esther says she doesn't handle 413 00:24:18,210 --> 00:24:21,410 Speaker 1: stress well, and she has some moments that there are 414 00:24:21,450 --> 00:24:24,730 Speaker 1: several moments where she does things where she does seem 415 00:24:24,770 --> 00:24:27,370 Speaker 1: to be panicking, and she makes decisions that you're like 416 00:24:28,890 --> 00:24:31,210 Speaker 1: the kind of decisions I would make, I would feel 417 00:24:31,210 --> 00:24:35,730 Speaker 1: like under that kind of pressure. But she also has 418 00:24:35,770 --> 00:24:39,610 Speaker 1: like what I think to be is tremendous resilience. At 419 00:24:39,610 --> 00:24:43,410 Speaker 1: the point where she has to vanish from Columbia, she 420 00:24:43,490 --> 00:24:46,850 Speaker 1: basically goes dark for a period of almost a year 421 00:24:46,890 --> 00:24:49,290 Speaker 1: and a half, and I talked to the guy who 422 00:24:49,330 --> 00:24:52,450 Speaker 1: is the US marshal tracking her down. He's basically almost 423 00:24:52,490 --> 00:24:54,050 Speaker 1: that we think of a bounty hunter, but he works 424 00:24:54,050 --> 00:24:56,450 Speaker 1: for the federal government and he's tracking her, and he's 425 00:24:56,490 --> 00:24:58,890 Speaker 1: quite good at what he does. And he says, you know, 426 00:24:59,290 --> 00:25:00,970 Speaker 1: people say they'll like to go off the grid, but 427 00:25:01,210 --> 00:25:04,890 Speaker 1: very few people have the stamina or the discipline to 428 00:25:04,930 --> 00:25:08,890 Speaker 1: sever all ties with everyone and just exist on their own. 429 00:25:09,530 --> 00:25:13,010 Speaker 1: And she does that. And to me, that is a 430 00:25:13,050 --> 00:25:16,210 Speaker 1: sign of not just her intelligence, but also of our 431 00:25:16,290 --> 00:25:18,490 Speaker 1: mental fortitude. And I think I would last about two 432 00:25:18,490 --> 00:25:20,410 Speaker 1: weeks before I felt like I had to call a 433 00:25:20,450 --> 00:25:23,730 Speaker 1: friend because I was going out of my mind. Having 434 00:25:24,410 --> 00:25:29,010 Speaker 1: reported all three of these seasons about people leading double lives, 435 00:25:29,170 --> 00:25:31,770 Speaker 1: is there anything that you've learned from them that you 436 00:25:31,810 --> 00:25:34,890 Speaker 1: think that maybe we could all use in our own lives. 437 00:25:35,410 --> 00:25:39,690 Speaker 1: That's a great question. I do think that lying is seductive. 438 00:25:40,050 --> 00:25:41,770 Speaker 1: I thought about this. I started off my career as 439 00:25:41,770 --> 00:25:43,850 Speaker 1: a journalist at the New Republic, and I came there 440 00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:47,130 Speaker 1: right after the Stephen Glass scandal, which he was a 441 00:25:47,210 --> 00:25:49,730 Speaker 1: journalist who just made things up. He ended up making 442 00:25:49,810 --> 00:25:52,730 Speaker 1: up stories wholesale. I think that there's an aspect of 443 00:25:52,850 --> 00:25:56,370 Speaker 1: lying and of making up where we are from, which 444 00:25:56,850 --> 00:26:01,290 Speaker 1: is both seductive but is also deeply understandable that like, 445 00:26:01,410 --> 00:26:06,090 Speaker 1: to some degree, we're all limited by where we were born, 446 00:26:06,250 --> 00:26:09,010 Speaker 1: who we were, the lives that we have kind of 447 00:26:09,250 --> 00:26:12,410 Speaker 1: been allotted. And so to me, the desire to kind 448 00:26:12,450 --> 00:26:16,130 Speaker 1: of become someone else or to kind of have that 449 00:26:16,410 --> 00:26:21,370 Speaker 1: total blank slate, that that, to me is very understandable. 450 00:26:21,610 --> 00:26:23,770 Speaker 1: I don't look at these people and think, like, what 451 00:26:23,890 --> 00:26:27,530 Speaker 1: on earth were they possibly thinking. I don't see the 452 00:26:27,570 --> 00:26:29,490 Speaker 1: allure of it all. That's not what I think, because 453 00:26:29,490 --> 00:26:32,290 Speaker 1: to me I get that. I mean, we all reinvent 454 00:26:32,330 --> 00:26:34,410 Speaker 1: ourselves to some excaving it just leaving high school to 455 00:26:34,450 --> 00:26:38,850 Speaker 1: go to college. But if ever there was a kind 456 00:26:38,850 --> 00:26:43,730 Speaker 1: of cautionary tale about writing the hot checks of lying 457 00:26:43,810 --> 00:26:47,370 Speaker 1: in them coming do these are these kind of hyperbolic 458 00:26:47,450 --> 00:26:51,170 Speaker 1: examples of why lying is so problematic, because you have 459 00:26:51,210 --> 00:26:53,530 Speaker 1: to keep track of everything, and in these cases that 460 00:26:53,650 --> 00:26:57,970 Speaker 1: is just exaggerated to the utmost extreme, remembering who you are, 461 00:26:58,050 --> 00:27:01,770 Speaker 1: which life you're in, which person you are, and it's 462 00:27:01,810 --> 00:27:04,090 Speaker 1: just hugely stressful. And I think that even on a 463 00:27:04,130 --> 00:27:06,290 Speaker 1: smaller scale, you can see that that's what that's that's 464 00:27:06,330 --> 00:27:08,890 Speaker 1: the position that lying puts us in So even if 465 00:27:08,890 --> 00:27:09,890 Speaker 1: it's like, do you want to go out for a 466 00:27:09,930 --> 00:27:12,890 Speaker 1: drink tonight, No, I can't, I'm not feeling well. And 467 00:27:12,930 --> 00:27:15,050 Speaker 1: then you go out with someone else and you have 468 00:27:15,050 --> 00:27:18,370 Speaker 1: to remember where you were, hope you weren't seen, Like 469 00:27:18,770 --> 00:27:21,010 Speaker 1: that's what these folks are doing on this much greater scale. 470 00:27:21,050 --> 00:27:23,170 Speaker 1: To me, it's just it's just a reminder of like 471 00:27:23,250 --> 00:27:25,810 Speaker 1: why why I don't want to go down that path 472 00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:29,810 Speaker 1: for many reasons, including just how stressful it is. There 473 00:27:29,890 --> 00:27:34,410 Speaker 1: is this line in the movie Excalibur. Merlin says when 474 00:27:34,450 --> 00:27:37,610 Speaker 1: a man lies, he murders some part of the world. 475 00:27:38,530 --> 00:27:43,370 Speaker 1: And there's this very dark view there of what it 476 00:27:43,410 --> 00:27:47,450 Speaker 1: means to not tell the truth. But of course, I mean, 477 00:27:47,450 --> 00:27:51,730 Speaker 1: we do all lie all the time for it little lies, 478 00:27:51,810 --> 00:27:56,570 Speaker 1: for for for good reason, to avoid embarrassment, avoid hurting 479 00:27:56,610 --> 00:28:02,250 Speaker 1: someone's feelings. It's not so easy to just draw that 480 00:28:02,450 --> 00:28:06,090 Speaker 1: bright line and say never cross it. It's not it's 481 00:28:06,130 --> 00:28:07,850 Speaker 1: not no, we do like, oh do I look nice 482 00:28:07,890 --> 00:28:11,090 Speaker 1: in this dress? Dad? Did I? Did I do okay? 483 00:28:11,090 --> 00:28:14,130 Speaker 1: On the basketball court? Today? Is student asking do you 484 00:28:14,130 --> 00:28:16,650 Speaker 1: think I have any ability at writing? I mean, like, 485 00:28:16,690 --> 00:28:20,730 Speaker 1: there's all these moments where sometimes it's not just kind 486 00:28:20,770 --> 00:28:23,010 Speaker 1: of for gain, it's it's what we perceive as kind 487 00:28:23,010 --> 00:28:28,250 Speaker 1: of generosity or decency or kindness that justify the small 488 00:28:28,330 --> 00:28:31,410 Speaker 1: half truth. But I will I will tell you this, 489 00:28:31,850 --> 00:28:34,290 Speaker 1: And this is just a little about myself. I'm married 490 00:28:34,330 --> 00:28:38,570 Speaker 1: a woman who's almost constitutionally incapable of telling a lie. 491 00:28:39,490 --> 00:28:43,130 Speaker 1: I've really never met anyone quite like her. She'll she'll 492 00:28:43,170 --> 00:28:45,330 Speaker 1: say like, well, I don't want to have drinks tonight. 493 00:28:45,370 --> 00:28:48,410 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just not feeling social. Like that's the 494 00:28:48,490 --> 00:28:50,970 Speaker 1: kind of thing that she will just say. And she 495 00:28:51,050 --> 00:28:53,250 Speaker 1: does this all the time. She's done this my writing too. 496 00:28:53,690 --> 00:28:55,090 Speaker 1: You know, it's just like, can you tell him a 497 00:28:55,090 --> 00:28:58,890 Speaker 1: small lie? And her position is that everyone needs a 498 00:28:58,890 --> 00:29:02,890 Speaker 1: truthful editor. Yeah exactly. I mean I find it too 499 00:29:02,970 --> 00:29:07,330 Speaker 1: honest sometimes. But I think that her feeling is that, 500 00:29:07,410 --> 00:29:09,650 Speaker 1: among other things, it's just a clean way to live 501 00:29:09,690 --> 00:29:13,250 Speaker 1: because you're never debating, you're never getting into that situation 502 00:29:13,290 --> 00:29:17,530 Speaker 1: of doing the arithmetic of whether or not the lies justified, 503 00:29:17,930 --> 00:29:19,930 Speaker 1: which is a space that I feel like, prior to 504 00:29:19,970 --> 00:29:21,970 Speaker 1: meeting her, I spent a lot of time in even 505 00:29:22,010 --> 00:29:24,850 Speaker 1: on these kind of small so called white lies, of 506 00:29:25,170 --> 00:29:28,010 Speaker 1: kind of social niceties so I think that I think 507 00:29:28,210 --> 00:29:29,530 Speaker 1: in some of them, and I've never really kind of 508 00:29:29,530 --> 00:29:32,290 Speaker 1: put this together, but I think that there's probably it's 509 00:29:32,330 --> 00:29:35,370 Speaker 1: not a coincidence that I'm married to this truth teller, 510 00:29:35,450 --> 00:29:38,170 Speaker 1: but I'm also deeply intrigued by these people who are, 511 00:29:38,290 --> 00:29:41,970 Speaker 1: to various degrees masters of deception. I did not expect 512 00:29:42,010 --> 00:29:46,530 Speaker 1: our conversation to end up talking about white lies and 513 00:29:46,730 --> 00:29:49,570 Speaker 1: defending going out for drinks or not going out for drinks, 514 00:29:49,610 --> 00:29:52,930 Speaker 1: but it has been an absolute pleasure. Jake, thank you 515 00:29:52,970 --> 00:29:55,330 Speaker 1: for joining us. I should say, deep Cover and Never 516 00:29:55,370 --> 00:29:58,210 Speaker 1: See It Again is available now from Pushkin on all 517 00:29:58,570 --> 00:30:02,850 Speaker 1: the usual pod platforms. Jake Halpin, thank you very much. Tim, 518 00:30:02,850 --> 00:30:08,650 Speaker 1: thanks so much for having me. And now here's the 519 00:30:08,730 --> 00:30:16,730 Speaker 1: open of deep Cover, Never Seen Again. This is a 520 00:30:16,850 --> 00:30:19,610 Speaker 1: story about a young woman who ran away from home. 521 00:30:20,410 --> 00:30:23,610 Speaker 1: At least that's how it all started. I think people 522 00:30:23,650 --> 00:30:25,330 Speaker 1: think that I had this master plan and I went 523 00:30:25,330 --> 00:30:27,690 Speaker 1: out and did it, and like, you know, like it's 524 00:30:27,810 --> 00:30:32,250 Speaker 1: not fun, right, You're constantly scared, you have no support, 525 00:30:32,290 --> 00:30:34,330 Speaker 1: you have no one to talk to, which is part 526 00:30:34,410 --> 00:30:37,370 Speaker 1: of the reason it got so carried away. Like if 527 00:30:37,410 --> 00:30:41,170 Speaker 1: I had just talked to somebody, they would have been 528 00:30:41,210 --> 00:30:45,130 Speaker 1: like this is crazy. Along the way, there were plenty 529 00:30:45,130 --> 00:30:49,050 Speaker 1: of moments where she could have stopped running, but she didn't. 530 00:30:51,170 --> 00:30:54,290 Speaker 1: Sort of like, I got on a train track. There 531 00:30:54,370 --> 00:30:57,250 Speaker 1: was clearly the wrong train track, and like, my train 532 00:30:57,410 --> 00:31:00,930 Speaker 1: is running away, and at some point you're not thinking, crap, 533 00:31:00,930 --> 00:31:02,450 Speaker 1: how do we get off this train track? You're just 534 00:31:02,490 --> 00:31:04,970 Speaker 1: thinking crap, how do I stop this train from like 535 00:31:05,090 --> 00:31:08,130 Speaker 1: going off the rails? You know, I just kept making 536 00:31:08,170 --> 00:31:12,170 Speaker 1: a horrible decision, a horrible decision after horrible decision, just 537 00:31:12,290 --> 00:31:14,690 Speaker 1: trying to keep the train from crashing and killing me. 538 00:31:14,730 --> 00:31:20,890 Speaker 1: At that point, we're going to come back to this 539 00:31:20,930 --> 00:31:24,050 Speaker 1: woman and go deep into her story so you'll hear 540 00:31:24,090 --> 00:31:27,690 Speaker 1: more about all that, but not just yet, because this 541 00:31:27,810 --> 00:31:32,010 Speaker 1: is actually a story about not one, but two young 542 00:31:32,050 --> 00:31:35,650 Speaker 1: women who vanished at about the same time. The two 543 00:31:35,650 --> 00:31:38,450 Speaker 1: of them were roughly the same age, but in so 544 00:31:38,490 --> 00:31:41,290 Speaker 1: many other ways they could not have been more different. 545 00:31:42,050 --> 00:31:45,090 Speaker 1: One grew up in rural Montana, where she was raised 546 00:31:45,130 --> 00:31:49,130 Speaker 1: in a sheltered, devoutly religious home. She was shy and 547 00:31:49,370 --> 00:31:52,610 Speaker 1: kind of a nerd. The other was a kind hearted, 548 00:31:52,610 --> 00:31:57,410 Speaker 1: free spirit from South Carolina. She partied often and sometimes 549 00:31:57,490 --> 00:32:01,090 Speaker 1: hung out with a rough crowd. They both disappeared in 550 00:32:01,210 --> 00:32:05,490 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine. Their families searched for them, but didn't 551 00:32:05,490 --> 00:32:10,450 Speaker 1: find many clues, and then improbably the stories collided when 552 00:32:10,450 --> 00:32:15,450 Speaker 1: a lone investigator got involved and quickly became obsessed. I 553 00:32:15,610 --> 00:32:19,610 Speaker 1: think of a situation as a sweater. So sometimes you 554 00:32:19,650 --> 00:32:22,370 Speaker 1: have a loose thread and you pull the thread and 555 00:32:22,370 --> 00:32:24,970 Speaker 1: you get a knot. And sometimes you pull a thread 556 00:32:25,170 --> 00:32:28,530 Speaker 1: and it just keeps unraveling, and you just keep falling 557 00:32:28,570 --> 00:32:32,410 Speaker 1: and falling and bulling. This investigator was convinced that the 558 00:32:32,450 --> 00:32:35,730 Speaker 1: fates of these two young women, the free Spirit and 559 00:32:35,850 --> 00:32:39,850 Speaker 1: the Nerd, were linked, and that by solving one of 560 00:32:39,890 --> 00:32:43,130 Speaker 1: their cases he might also solve the other. Not just 561 00:32:43,290 --> 00:32:46,770 Speaker 1: that he suspected that one of them was a master 562 00:32:46,890 --> 00:32:50,930 Speaker 1: of deception, a highly trained chameleon who conned her way 563 00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:54,730 Speaker 1: into the ivy leagues. He began an investigation that ultimately 564 00:32:54,810 --> 00:32:58,330 Speaker 1: drew in the Secret Service, the US Marshals, and the 565 00:32:58,450 --> 00:33:02,730 Speaker 1: Justice Department. The media soon got wind of this. Allegations 566 00:33:02,770 --> 00:33:08,690 Speaker 1: of murder, fraud, and espionage swirled. Eventually, a nationwide manhunt 567 00:33:08,690 --> 00:33:12,970 Speaker 1: got under way, all because of this one investigator and 568 00:33:13,170 --> 00:33:17,810 Speaker 1: his hunch. Now, given the gigantic scope of all this 569 00:33:18,290 --> 00:33:21,010 Speaker 1: you might think that our investigator worked for some big 570 00:33:21,050 --> 00:33:25,050 Speaker 1: city police department or a fancy federal agency, or maybe 571 00:33:25,090 --> 00:33:29,530 Speaker 1: even an international outfit like Interpoll. Nope, he was a 572 00:33:29,570 --> 00:33:33,290 Speaker 1: small town cop who'd just become a detective. He didn't 573 00:33:33,290 --> 00:33:36,370 Speaker 1: have a partner, or for a while, even a computer. 574 00:33:37,130 --> 00:33:42,290 Speaker 1: But he was doggedly stubborn, almost perversely. So I just 575 00:33:42,330 --> 00:33:45,090 Speaker 1: pulled a thread and it just kept going and going 576 00:33:45,130 --> 00:33:48,410 Speaker 1: and going, to the whole thing unraveled. I get it. 577 00:33:48,930 --> 00:33:51,930 Speaker 1: I love pulling on threads. As a journalist. I've done 578 00:33:51,930 --> 00:33:55,290 Speaker 1: this so many times, pulled and pulled until I have 579 00:33:55,370 --> 00:33:58,170 Speaker 1: lost track of what I was originally looking for or 580 00:33:58,170 --> 00:34:01,730 Speaker 1: whether it was worth it. And sometimes most of the time, 581 00:34:01,730 --> 00:34:06,250 Speaker 1: in fact, it's not. But every once in a while, 582 00:34:06,650 --> 00:34:10,490 Speaker 1: there's a set of facts that's so irresistibly curious that 583 00:34:10,610 --> 00:34:15,090 Speaker 1: I just can't let go. And I suppose it doesn't 584 00:34:15,130 --> 00:34:18,690 Speaker 1: matter whether you're a journalist or a detective or just 585 00:34:18,770 --> 00:34:22,530 Speaker 1: a nosy neighbor. So many of us believe that great 586 00:34:22,690 --> 00:34:26,450 Speaker 1: mysteries lurk in the periphery of our lives. So when 587 00:34:26,450 --> 00:34:31,170 Speaker 1: we find an especially curious thread, we keep pulling because 588 00:34:31,170 --> 00:34:49,810 Speaker 1: we won't be satisfied until we've unraveled at All. I'm 589 00:34:49,890 --> 00:34:55,330 Speaker 1: Jake Albern and this is Deep Cover Season three, Never 590 00:34:55,330 --> 00:35:39,850 Speaker 1: Seen Again. Cautionary Tales is written by me Tim Harford 591 00:35:40,050 --> 00:35:44,650 Speaker 1: with Andrew Wright. It's produced by Alice Fines with support 592 00:35:44,770 --> 00:35:48,890 Speaker 1: from Edith Rousselow. The sound design and original music is 593 00:35:48,890 --> 00:35:52,730 Speaker 1: the work of Pascal Wise. The show wouldn't have been 594 00:35:52,730 --> 00:35:57,250 Speaker 1: possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Ryan Dilley, Julia Barton, 595 00:35:57,610 --> 00:36:02,770 Speaker 1: Greta Cohne, Little Millard, John Schnaz, Karlie Migliori, Eric Sandler, 596 00:36:03,050 --> 00:36:08,370 Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Nicole Morano, and Morgan Ratner. Cautionary Tales is 597 00:36:08,370 --> 00:36:11,770 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. If you like the show, 598 00:36:12,210 --> 00:36:15,450 Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate, and review. It helps us 599 00:36:15,490 --> 00:36:18,810 Speaker 1: for mysterious reasons. If you want to hear the show, 600 00:36:19,010 --> 00:36:22,450 Speaker 1: add free sign up for Pushkin Plus on the show 601 00:36:22,490 --> 00:36:27,170 Speaker 1: page and Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot Fm, slash 602 00:36:27,450 --> 00:36:27,810 Speaker 1: plus