1 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: A beautiful young girl goes missing, twenty seven year old 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: Kelly Dwyer, seemingly without a trace. Her friends at Lululemon call, 3 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: it seems to go straight into voicemail as if it's dead. 4 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: When was she seen by an independent witness. They're not 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: a law of interest, they're not an ex boyfriend, they're 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: not an arch enemy at work that we know of. 7 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: And that's very, very critical where you're trying to establish 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: a timeline, that you do it independently, such as with 9 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: video surveillance or witnesses that don't have a grudge or 10 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: a romantic interest. What happened to Kelly Dwyer? This is 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: crime Stories Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. It was somewhat 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: unusual for someone to just vanish out of thin air, 13 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: especially actually on the East side of Milwaukee. Kelly Dwyer. 14 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: She is a young woman that is out trying to 15 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: discover herself. You see this bright eyed, smiling, beautiful girl 16 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: who really seemed to have a lot of life and vitality. 17 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: We got to spend quite a bit of time together 18 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: in the yoga room. It was rare not to see her, 19 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: and I had just assumed she was on an adventure 20 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: of some sort. October twelfth, twenty thirteen, she did not 21 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: show up for work. Her co workers were absolutely the 22 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: first to respond. Kelly was very tied to her cell phone, 23 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: always posting on social media, always texting. When they called 24 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: Kelly's cell phone, it went straight to voicemail. Kelly Dwyer 25 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: is missing. Solving the mystery behind the disappearance of a 26 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: beautiful young girl, a Wisconsin woman just vanishing seemingly into 27 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: thin air. What happened to Kelly Dwyer just twenty seven 28 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: years old. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank 29 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: you for being with us, with me an all star panel. 30 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: Julie Wendelman, New York defense attorney. Cloyd Steiger thirty six years, 31 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: Seattle PD, twenty two years homicide detective and author of 32 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: Seattle's Forgotten serial Killer. Gary Jane Grant, I haven't forgotten 33 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: Gary Jane Grant, renowned psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills. Doctor 34 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Chris Sperry, 35 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: former chief medical Examiner for the State of Georgia, but 36 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: right now to Crime online dot com. Investigative reporter Levi Paige. 37 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: First of all, who is Kelly Dwyer? Tell me about Kelly. 38 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: Let's start with that. Nancy. She's a twenty seven year 39 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: old young woman and she worked at a clothing store, 40 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: Lulu Lemon, which is a athletic clothing store. Okay, wait 41 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: wait wait wait wait, Levi, Levi Levi. First of all, 42 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: let me tell you what Lululemon is. Okay, just frame 43 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: of reference. My daughter got invited to a very fancy 44 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: birthday party. Okay, Lucy asked the girl, what would you 45 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: like for your birthday? Well, the girl said Lululemon whatever, 46 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: yoga pants and I didn't know this part till later. 47 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: A silver necklace with my nestal on it. So Lucy knee. 48 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: Once we went we went online to find Lululemon. The 49 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: yoga pants were eighty six dollars eighty six dollars plus shipping, 50 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: which the shipping's worth it to me, so I don't 51 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: have to go to the mall. So we did that. 52 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: Little did I know she went behind my back to 53 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: her dad to get the silver necklace too, because the 54 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: girl is the it girl at school, all right, So 55 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: when I find out about the necklace, I'm like you 56 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: know what, This is more than I ever got from 57 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: my birthday in my whole life. But okay, if fine, 58 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: all right, So then of course the yoga pants don't fit. 59 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: They're not the right side. So we have to go 60 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: to the store, which is my nightmare. We get there, 61 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: there's not one thing in there under about ninety dollars. 62 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: That is what Lululemon is. Yes, the stuff is awesome, 63 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: but that is a place where the really rich, wealthy 64 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: and wealthy wannabes with credit cards show up to fit 65 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: in and their exercise classes. They all have to have 66 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: Lululemon on their yoga pants. Okay, I'm just telling you 67 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: what it is. The stuff's awesome. I'm sure. Now back 68 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: to Lululemon, go ahead. So she works there, she loves 69 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: her job, she's extremely tighten it with her co workers, 70 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: and on October twelve, twenty thirteen, she doesn't show up 71 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: to work and her co workers take notice. They try 72 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: to Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold hold on right 73 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: there again, Sorry, LEVI don't I don't think you're understanding this. 74 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: To Bethany Marshall, psychoanalysts, I did notice something when I 75 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: was at lulu Lemmon they're a bunch of perfect looking 76 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: people working there, but they're extremely friendly and they it's 77 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: like a little subculture, like they're all into exercising, they're 78 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: all into yoga there. Yes, they're salespeople. They have a 79 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: specialty though, they know all about this genre and they're 80 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: very tight knit and the reality is at work. For instance, 81 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: I'm meeting up with a former prosecutor I worked with 82 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: and that was twenty years ago. We're meeting up for lunch. 83 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: There's some kind of camaraderie there that you get from 84 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: being with someone every day. And I gotta tell you, 85 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: I will say this, even though the stuff was so overpriced, 86 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,799 Speaker 1: the people they were super friendly and they all looked perfect, 87 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: which makes me think Kelly Dwyer looked perfect too well. 88 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: Not only that, Nancy. Yes, they're a community and it 89 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: is you may learn through Lucy in future years. They 90 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: will talor the clothing, even though it's outlet where they'll 91 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: shorten the shorts or lengthen them. Put your monogram on right? 92 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: Why white white? Stop? Stop? What did you just say 93 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: about tailoring? The y have sewing machines in the store 94 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: where they will tighten them. They will shorten them. They 95 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: will shorten the top. I mean, I'm sorry, but they 96 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 1: all look like size too to me. Just they'll just 97 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: put that out there, Okay, go ahead. They have a 98 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: tailor there for exercise parts. They do. It's the perfect fit. 99 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: Now is that justin Beverly Hills or over the place? World? 100 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: World that I would know from experience? Okay, you just 101 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: taught me something. But you know, but what about that camaraderie? 102 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: Why is it the coworkers that notice somebody's done. Here's 103 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: what I notice about that store and about the stories 104 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: you cover in general, when it happens to be a 105 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: group of young people, when somebody doesn't show up, they 106 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: notice it because they're all on social media. They track 107 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: each other. Unlike you know, if you or I didn't 108 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: show up at a dinner party, I might assume you 109 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: know your child was thick, might assume that you know 110 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: my husband and I are, you know, having an evening 111 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,559 Speaker 1: trying to hash something out. Something else came up. These 112 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: young people not only wait a minute, you hash things 113 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: out with your husband, I just say save until the 114 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: tourists go to college. Put a pan at it. Okay, 115 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: go ahead, I'll leave you your candle at dinners but 116 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: you know what, they're very they follow each other. So 117 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: did you hear what we just applied it? They all 118 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: do yoga together, yes, yes, so they're part of a community. 119 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: And not only that, but they probably are all on 120 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: Instagram together. I don't know if you've been to some 121 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: of these exercise classes, but the yoga instructors actually take 122 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: videos they posted on their Instagram. This is something they 123 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: do to increase their following. So you know, when somebody 124 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: can't get ahold of somebody else, they look on Instagram, 125 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: they look on Facebook, they look on Snapchat and Twitter. 126 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: So it is very easy in this community to know 127 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: that somebody has gone missing. Unlike thirty years ago when 128 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: you didn't you know, a day pass and you didn't 129 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: call your mother. Now it's an hour passes and everybody 130 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: notices that the pattern has shifted and you're no longer 131 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: doing things. You know what, You're absolutely right. And Jackie 132 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: here is gesticulating wildly to tell me that she's all 133 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: over social media to Cloyd Steiger, homicide detective author of 134 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: Seattle's Forgotten serial killer, Gary Jane Grant, Cloyd, she's got 135 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: a really good point. Somebody that's on social media all 136 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: the time, people notice when you're missing. But I'm still 137 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: befuddled regarding it's a coworker that reports her missing. Well, yeah, 138 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: she probably is one of those people that's always on 139 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: time for work, and it just this pattern of behavior 140 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: that suddenly changes. She's not you know, maybe she's five 141 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: minutes late sometimes, but she just doesn't show. And that's really, 142 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: actually very common way that we find homicide victims is 143 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: they don't show up for work and then somebody goes 144 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: to the house and check on them and finds them 145 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: missing there, which wasn't the case in this instance. But 146 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: that's actually really common. And the social media thing is 147 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: exactly right. Everybody's on it all the time, and which 148 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: is great for detectives trying to track somebody's behavior. But 149 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not surprised that are co workers are 150 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: the ones that called. That's right, as Levi Page with 151 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com is telling us, when Kelly didn't 152 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: show up for work, her co workers were the very 153 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: first ones to respond. They called her cell phone and 154 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: they checked. As doctor Bethany Marshall pointed out her social media, 155 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: you know, Levi Page, I don't know why you took 156 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: me on a wild goose Chase talking about the expense 157 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: of yoga pants at Lululemon. But that's totally irrelevant, Levi, 158 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: and I chastise you for bringing it up. Now, Chris 159 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: Barry with me, former chief medical Examiner in the State 160 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: of Georgia. Chris, you and I hashed out many, many 161 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: autopsy reports together. I don't know if you remember sitting 162 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: there muttering under your breath and looking at your watch, 163 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 1: and I would say, well, what does this mean? And 164 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: what's ahem atoma? Now you see what took me so 165 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: long investigating the case. For Ris, it's a whole different language. 166 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: It's a whole different language. But right now we're talking 167 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: about Kelly Dwyer crime stories with Nancy Grace. It was 168 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: somewhat unusual for someone to just vanish out of thin air, 169 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: especially on the East side of Milwaukee. Kelly Dwyer, she 170 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: is a young woman that is out trying to discover herself. 171 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 1: You see this bright eyed, smiling, beautiful girl who really 172 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: seemed to have a lot of life and vitality. We 173 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: got to spend quite a bit of time together in 174 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: the yoga room. It was rare not to see her, 175 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: and I had just assumed she was on an adventure 176 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: of some sort. October twelfth, twenty thirteen, she did not 177 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: show up for work. Her co workers were absolutely the 178 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: first to respond. Kelly was very tied to her cell phone, 179 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:17,959 Speaker 1: always posting on social media, always texting. When they called 180 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: Kelly's cell phone, it went straight to Voicemavid Kelly Dwyer 181 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: is missing. A beautiful young girl goes missing twenty seven 182 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: year old Kelly Dwyer seemilarly without a trace to Leavipage 183 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: crime online dot com investigative reporter. So her friends at 184 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: Lululemon call in. Who do they call? They call her 185 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: cell phone. It seems to go straight to voicemail, as 186 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: if it's dead. What else happens? Then that at the 187 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: very critical first few hours of realizing she's not reporting 188 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: to work, they also noticed that her social media is gone, 189 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: not that she hasn't posted on social media, but that 190 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 1: all of her social media accounts are deleted. They're vaporized. 191 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: There's no footprint on the Internet of her social media accounts, 192 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: which is extremely unusual because she was very active on there. 193 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: She would post about her yoga routines and workouts on 194 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: social media regularly. Let's go old school le Vi page. 195 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: When was the last time she was actually seen? Forget 196 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: about cell phones and social media, When was she seen 197 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: by an independent witness? So she was seen at a 198 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: bar in Milwaukee with her boyfriend, Chris Zoko. She'd been 199 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 1: dating him for a year. He's thirty eight years old, 200 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: he worked at a relocation management company as the chief 201 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: information officer, and they ate pizza at this bar. Well, 202 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: it seems to me to Julie Rendelman, new York defense attorney, 203 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 1: the first thing you would do is round up everybody 204 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: that was out eating pizza the night before she goes missing. Yeah, 205 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the person you're going to focus 206 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: on is the guy she's eating pizza with, because that 207 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: seems to be at least says we know at this 208 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: point the last person that was seen with her alive, 209 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: So we'd want to know what he has to say 210 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: in terms of where she was the left time he's here. 211 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: You know what's interesting about that scenario, Decloyd steig or Cloyd, 212 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: is that there are a lot of independent witnesses there, 213 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: people that won't have a dog in the fight, skin 214 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: in the game. What I mean by that is her 215 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: girlfriends from work, they were together and they all go 216 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: home to their own places, and you can verify where 217 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: everybody was before, during, and right after except Kelly Dwyer. 218 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: Those are what I call independent witnesses. They're not a 219 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: love interest, they're not an ex boyfriend, they're not an 220 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,719 Speaker 1: arch enemy at work that we know of. And that's very, 221 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: very critical when you're trying to establish a timeline, that 222 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: you do it independently, such as with video surveillance or 223 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: witnesses that don't have a grudge or a romantic interest. Yeah, 224 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: that's a good thing about a case like this. There 225 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: are a lot of independent witnesses. Although the video is 226 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: priceless and golden in this case, and tracking down all 227 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: the video is something you want to do so you 228 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: can see where she's been and watch her movements, and 229 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: you don't have to you do want to talk to 230 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: the witnesses, but you can look for yourself and see 231 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,959 Speaker 1: that nothing happened at the bar. Of course, these are 232 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: women she works with. Statistically, women are less likely to 233 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: commit a serious crime on another person. Why do we 234 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: not believe that she just went off the grid? What 235 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: about that? Did doctor Bethany Marshall? It's tough to go 236 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: off the grid. It's really tough to rid the grid. 237 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: So what about this woman, Kelly darn makes you believe 238 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: she didn't just say, you know what, I'm fed up 239 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: with the city life, fed up with social media. I'm 240 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: fed up with the whole shebang. I'm out of here. 241 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: You look Nancy in a word, her attachment systems. She 242 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: was attached, She had friends, she had family. She was dating, 243 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: not only Zoko, but I understand other people. So women 244 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: likely will not abandon their attachment systems. Now, every once 245 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: in a while you'll have a mother who's not bonded 246 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: with their children, and the mother takes off and abandons 247 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: the family. That is rare in that as an outlier, 248 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: in this case, she would not have left her friends 249 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: and family behind leg I page. I just heard doctor 250 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall's state that she was not only dating Chris Zoko, 251 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: she was dating other people as well. Yeah, she had 252 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: a profile on some dating apps and was dating other 253 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: people as well, But Chris Zoko was the main person 254 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: that she was dating, and her friends said that that 255 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: was her most serious boyfriend, that they were really getting serious. Well, okay, 256 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: if you're serious, you don't have dating profiles up. Now, 257 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: that opens up a whole nother can of worms for 258 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: me if you're still on dating websites, which I'm perfectly 259 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: fine with. Dating websites is how my nephew found his wife. 260 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: They're happily married with a baby boy that just turned two. 261 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: But I'm saying that there are now several males in 262 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: the mix that we have to look at. Agree or disagree, Lloyd, Well, 263 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: I agree you have to look at her profile and 264 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: see where she who she contacted. But you know, to 265 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: your question of why she had a dating site when 266 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: she supposedly loves this guy, or maybe she says that 267 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: he wasn't into it as much as she was, and 268 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: that's something that was going on, And so you can 269 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: get her dating site activity and see who she connected with, 270 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: see if she told anybody I'm going to meet you 271 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: somewhere and that type of thing, and then follow up 272 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: on those leaves. Listen. According to Chanelle Royston, before Kelly 273 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: Dwyer disappeared, it seemed her relationship with Chris Sacho was evolving. 274 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: Did Kelly ever tell you that she was falling in 275 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: love with Chris? She never told me, but you could 276 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: tell you know how she would look at him, that 277 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: she was looking for something more, and I think that 278 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: she did love him at that point. It turns out 279 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: Zacho may have been in love as well with someone else. 280 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: He was in a very serious relationship with a woman 281 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: who he was dating at the time that he was 282 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: seeing Kelly. And this young woman knew nothing about the 283 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: relationship with Kelly. And did Kelly had any idea about 284 00:16:54,920 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: this other woman? Absolutely not, and neither did investigators Leavi 285 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: Page Crime online dot Com investigative reporters. So both of 286 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: them are dating other people. Is that right? Yes, that 287 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: is correct. Okay, so let me understand they're not in 288 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: love as her friends thought they were. They're dating other people. 289 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: That changes the landscape of the search. But of course, 290 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: according to statistics, it's typically a husband, a boyfriend, or 291 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: an x that is responsible when somebody goes missing. And then, 292 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 1: based on those statistics, they speak to the boyfriend, they 293 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: take a look at his cell phone. Listen to this. 294 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: During his interview, he seemed flip even when asked routine 295 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: questions about his medical history. Nothing like that answer. Okay, 296 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: but Noah, don't say anything for it. Okay, no bro, 297 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: but no bipolar. I suppose that's all open to interpretation 298 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: with somebody Pacho's interrogation and finishes abruptly. But while they 299 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: had Zacho in custody, police get a warrant to search 300 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: his cell phone, hoping to find clues in Kelly's disappearance. 301 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: They were stunned to find a video of Zacho and 302 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: Kelly Dwyer engaged in a sex act where Kelly appears 303 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: to be in distress. She can't breathe, She's straining for breath. 304 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: When was his video taken? The video was taken approximately 305 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: three weeks before she went missing. Crime Stories with Nancy 306 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:52,479 Speaker 1: Grace So on Monday, October fourteenth, I started my shift 307 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: at four pm. I learned that Kelly Dwyer, a young woman, 308 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: had been reported missing and had not been seen or 309 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: heard from since the previous Friday. As Kelly Dwyer's family 310 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: and friends continued to search for her, Milwaukee detective Tammy 311 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: Trammel McClane arrived at the scene of Kelly's last known 312 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: whereabouts three days earlier, Chris Sucho's apartment building. They come 313 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: right through this door and he actually holds the door 314 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: open for her. If you can see that on the video, yes, 315 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: so you see two people that are chatting walk past 316 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 1: that camera. Then there's another camera that catches them turning 317 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: the corner to the elevator. They bend the corner and 318 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: then that's the last time that she is ever seen 319 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: alive by anyone. Welcome back, I mean, and see Grace. 320 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories with Me New York defense attorney 321 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: Julie Randelman, author and former homicide detective Cloyd Steiger, renowned 322 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: psycho Alice Dodger, Bethany Marshall, the former Chief Medical Examiner 323 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: for the State of Georgia, Chris Sperry, and Crime online 324 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: dot Com us to get a reporter LEVI page. So 325 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: they go into his apartment. They look around. I can't 326 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: help but notice the video shows her going into his 327 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: apartment building, but not coming out. You were just hearing 328 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 1: our friend Peter van zan at forty eight hours. Now 329 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 1: take a listen to this more incriminating evidence, disturbing pictures 330 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: of Kelly on Zako's phone. Still photographs that are very 331 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: concerning as well, because she appears to be unconscious on 332 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 1: his bed. But police could not link those images to 333 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: Kelly's disappearance, and despite Zacho being a person of interest, 334 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: they could only charge him with drug possession, but that 335 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: search of his apartment led police to a bizarre discovery 336 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 1: in his bathroom. During that first search warrant, the police 337 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: observe the shower curtain hooks with the torn fragments of 338 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: show a torn shower curtain. It may mean nothing to 339 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: some people. To me, it means a lot. Right now, 340 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: I'm working a cold case where one of the last 341 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: clues that I have with a missing woman is the 342 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: fact that in her home the shower curtain was missing 343 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: out of the bathroom that she decorated, where everything matched. 344 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: To doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, that is significant. You know, 345 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: for instance, in my children's bathrooms they don't have shower 346 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: curtains up, but most people do have shower curtains up. 347 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: And when she went to the trouble to match up 348 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: everything when she bought, you know, the shower curtain and 349 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: the rug and the towels and all that, and then 350 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: a piece is missing. That means something. And here in 351 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: his place, his apartment, Chris Zako, the boyfriend, the shower 352 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: curtain is torn down. Well, not only that, Nancy, Let's 353 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: say they're having a romantic sexual relationship. She's spending the 354 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 1: night at his house. Supposedly, a woman is going to 355 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 1: want a shower, right She's going to want to take 356 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: a shower after sex, or she's getting ready to go 357 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: to work in the morning. Women want to groom themselves. 358 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: So even if he didn't have any for a shower curtain, 359 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: she would most certainly make sure that one was there. 360 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: And also the fact that the shower curtain was torn 361 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: off of the hooks. I don't think I've ever seen 362 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: that in anybody's bathroom. And this guy had a big job, 363 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: a big life. He was a good earner. So the 364 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: fact that he would have something in his house so 365 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: amiss and out of place, like you would have in 366 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: maybe a crack house or an impoverished kind of setting, 367 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: it does not match what we would hope to see 368 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 1: in that kind of a home. So right now all 369 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: we have is video of her going in and no 370 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: video of her coming out, and a torn down shower curtain. 371 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: As days turn into weeks and weeks turn into months, 372 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: still no sign of Kelly Dwyer. To doctor Chris Berry, 373 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 1: former Chief Medical Examine over the State of Georgia, Chris, 374 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: as time passes, you lose more and more evidence as 375 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: it relates to determining a cause of death or even 376 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: identifying a body. Explain, Yes, with the passage of time, 377 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: nature takes its course. Decomposition begins. Insects infest the body. 378 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: If the body's outside, animals will get to it, and 379 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: sometimes will even you tear the body apart and distribute 380 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: the bones and scattered pieces all over a large area. 381 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: So it becomes much much more difficult to find the 382 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: injuries with the soft tissues gone, and also with the 383 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: damage that predators just naturally, you know, eating on decomposed 384 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: remains as will cause. So it makes a difficult problem 385 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: even more difficult, sometimes even impossible. Right now, the police 386 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: have their hands tied. They don't know which way to go. 387 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 1: That's a terrible spot to be in in a missing 388 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: person investigation. So what do you do when you don't 389 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: know what to do? You start over again, back at 390 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: Zacho's apartment, but this time police bring a special friend, 391 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: and they then bring in a canine to conduct a 392 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: sniff for the order of decomposing human remains, and that 393 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: police cadaver dog, Molly, would deliver some stunning results. There's 394 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: an indication at the outside of the apartment door in 395 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: the parking garage on the level, he partice car on 396 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: the dumpster door on the eighteenth floor. Molly alerted on 397 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: the hallway, guest bedroll, guest bathroom. She went on to 398 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 1: the master bedroom, got up onto Chris Zickle's bed. She 399 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: seemed to be sniffing vigorously on top of his bed, 400 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: and gives her final formal trained alert for police. That 401 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: moment changed this case forever. They now believed Kelly was dead, 402 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: so police bring in cadaver dogs. And I've got to 403 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 1: tell you something to Julie Rendelman, New York defense attorney, 404 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: no stranger to a courtroom. Many people have asked me, 405 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: for instance, what was my favorite case, which is a 406 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 1: crazy question because no case is more important than another. 407 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: People have also asked me who was your best witness 408 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: you ever put on the stand, And I normally say 409 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: it was a dog, a drug dog who completely carried 410 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: the day from me when I was prosecuting a drug lord. 411 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: Julie Rendelman, everybody loves a dog in the courtroom because 412 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: dogs don't lie, Doctor Bethanymore Marshall, there's another obvious witness, 413 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: the other woman. When she finds out he's been dating 414 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: Kelly Dwyer and taking videos of her, probably unbeknownst to Kelly, 415 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 1: of them in bed together. How do you think that's 416 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,719 Speaker 1: gonna sit Bethny Marshall, Nancy? Can you imagine? Well, at 417 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 1: first I would think that she's horrified that he's dating 418 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: another woman, he hit a whole double life from her. 419 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: But then can you imagine how relieved she is because 420 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: this other woman has gone missing? You know, what a minute, 421 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: I'm all happy about getting rid of love rivals, but 422 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: not by them going missing and possibly dead. What do 423 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,239 Speaker 1: you mean she was happy that she could have been 424 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: a murder victim, not that she's glad that the other 425 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: person was really you know, I deal in my practice 426 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: with people who have double lives all the time, and 427 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: normally that person is getting a need satisfied behind their 428 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: primary partners back. And in this case, there seemed to 429 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: be some sado masochistic sex play. Either he was abusing 430 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: her I I don't think so, that doesn't seem like 431 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: this is a domestic abuse situation, or they were engaging 432 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: in sex play that involved asphyxiation strangling, and that it 433 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: was beginning to go too far. And so what that 434 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: suggests to me if he is indeed the perpetrator, is 435 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: that maybe he already had homicidal tendencies. Maybe he sought 436 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: out a sex partner with whom he could gradually increase 437 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: the aggression against her as a preparation for killing somebody. 438 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: Maybe he kept the primary girlfriend on the side and 439 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: he had more of a benign vanilla relationship with her 440 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: while he had this sado masochistic sex play with the 441 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: other one that was actually priming him to commit homicide. Well, 442 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 1: as crazy as that sounds, I think it's not uncommon. Also, 443 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: Jackie has pointed out to me correctly that Kelly's ends 444 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: told police that they occasionally noticed a bruising on Kelly's 445 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: wrists and neck. They pointed it out to her and 446 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: she would laugh it off and say it was a 447 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: quote crazy night. Why is it, Bethany that often women 448 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: will go along with behavior that they really don't want. Well, 449 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: it is interesting the yoga instructor said that she was 450 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: just sort of living her life and exploring things, And 451 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: so I'm going to go with the yoga instructor's observation 452 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: that maybe she was in a period of experimentation. Okay, 453 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: that's certainly putting her hume on the pig Crime Stories 454 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Oh. When I went to interview the 455 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: long term girlfriend, Megan, and I had a lot of 456 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: photographs from the search warrants with me and I was 457 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: able to have her identify different odd jis within the apartment. 458 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: They learned that a number of things were missing. She 459 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: described that guest bathroom. There should have been a shower curtain, 460 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: there should have been a little rug, and some matching 461 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: decorative towels. All of those things were gone, and she 462 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: was surprised to see that. She identified the shower curtain 463 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: hooks that were bent and torn, identified the fact that 464 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: they were not like that when she had last been 465 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: in there, and it's in that very bathroom where the 466 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: sniffer dog alerted expecting human remain exactly. Megan also identified 467 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: one more missing item. There had been a large travel 468 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,959 Speaker 1: golf bag lying in front of the TV that had 469 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: been there for weeks and weeks that they literally would 470 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: have to step over to get into the bathroom, and 471 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: that was missing. Welcome back, hid Nancy Grace, this is 472 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: Crime Stories suddenly missing from the boyfriend's apartment. A very 473 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: heavy golf bag I could had the cops find out 474 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,719 Speaker 1: about it his other girlfriend, who now realized that her 475 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: boyfriend not only has been cheating, but that the other 476 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: woman is missing. But there's a lot more to that 477 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: missing golf bag. Listen to our friend Peter van Zant. 478 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: So he could take her body in the travel golf 479 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: bag out of his apartment, into the elevator, down to 480 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: the first floor, and out that door to the garage 481 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: without being captured on any cameras. But there are cameras 482 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: inside the garage and yet no image of Zacho with 483 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: that bag. The garage is the only area where the 484 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: cameras would be motion activated. Some of the investigators think, hey, 485 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: just got lucky with it. It took months of painstaking 486 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: work for Milwaukee PD investigators to piece together Chris Sucko's 487 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,719 Speaker 1: movements on the days after his date with Kelly Dwyer. 488 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: Lieutenant Eric o'branson worked the case as both a homicide 489 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: and cold case detective. At ten or six am, we 490 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: have Christako standing by the drivers side door when he 491 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: leaves that building. At ten o eight am, Kelly Dwyer's 492 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: phone It goes, Dad, what do you think happened to 493 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: the phone at that moment? Broken, powered down, thrown into water. 494 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: The river is very close by. Well, it's amazing how 495 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: much you can learn from cell phone triangulation and data. 496 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: Nineteen long months pass and then this authorities have just 497 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: identified the remains of twenty seven year old Kelly Dwyer. 498 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: Detective where are we. We are on a dead end 499 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: country road and we are about forty five miles west 500 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: of Milwaukee, and it's quite overgrown here. But this is 501 00:31:55,120 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: the specific area where Kelly Dwyer's body was found. For 502 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: a year and a half, Kelly Dwyer had been here, 503 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: hidden under these trees, just six miles from Busy I 504 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: ninety four before her remains were discovered by a local 505 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:21,239 Speaker 1: man out for a walk. He catches a glint of 506 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: light hitting off of something that's whitish in color, and 507 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: when he takes a closer look, he sees what appears 508 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: to be a human skull. Six days later, using dental records, 509 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: those remains were confirmed to be Kelly Dwyer. What could 510 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: not be confirmed, though, was just how she'd die. Our 511 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: friends at CBS to Chris Berry, former chief medical examiner, 512 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: Chris why is it that after nineteen months a medical 513 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: examiner cannot determine cause of death. If she was strangled 514 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: or suffocated, there's no soft no skin, and no muscles 515 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: and anything left that you can see, and the only 516 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: evidence that might be found would be possibly a crack 517 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: or a break in the hyoid bone, the lily u 518 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: shaped bone that's up at the base of the tongue. 519 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: But in a young woman who is manually strangled oftentimes 520 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: there are no internal injuries at all, no bony fractures 521 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: of any sort. And if she's suffocated or asphyxiated in 522 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: some other way, any subtle evidence that would be present 523 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: at the time when she died would be long gone. 524 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: So it's very it's essentially impossible. So without the soft tissue, 525 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: you couldn't figure out asphyxiation. You couldn't find hemorrhages, and 526 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: the eyeballs the particular because I guess those have deteriorated 527 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: as well. They're log gone. Yes, yes, all this left 528 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: is just both. How about gunshot or stabbing, Well, that 529 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: should be much more easy to determine if she had 530 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: been shot or stabbed, evidence of broken bones where bullets 531 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: had passed through and struck different structures would be easy 532 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: to see, and even stab wounds I myself have seen 533 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: cut marks on ribs from people who've been missing for 534 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: many years, where a knife has slid over the edge 535 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: of a rib and left a mark behind. So that's 536 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,439 Speaker 1: much more readily visible, but it requires a detailed examination 537 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: of every surface of every bone. Wow, okay, could you 538 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: explain to me when you're saying that you've seen this yourself. 539 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: When you're looking at a bone, Let's just say, from 540 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 1: the rib cage or the arm, how what do you 541 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 1: see on the bone to let you know that there 542 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: was a stab wound. You'll see a ridge or a 543 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,720 Speaker 1: little notch where the edge of the blade has struck 544 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 1: or struct the bone and then been diverted and gone 545 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: over the edge of the bone. That there is a 546 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 1: cut mark left behind, a small little ridge or sometimes 547 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: a triangular point or an indentation from the point of 548 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: the knife. So, and it's with a skeleton. After about 549 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: a year outside, pretty much all of the even the 550 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 1: fat and the grease that's left behind on the skeleton 551 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: is gone for the most part, and so it makes 552 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: it much more readily apparent if there are these subtle findings. 553 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 1: But you know, you once you see something like this, 554 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 1: then it becomes pretty obvious if a knife especially has 555 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: been involved. Wow, let me ask you this, doctor Sperry, 556 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: to prep the human bones in order to examine them, 557 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: I mean, how do you clean the bone yet not 558 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: destroy any evidence? Well, actually, you know, first of all, 559 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: you go over and examine everything very carefully. But then 560 00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: you immerse the skeleton. You put it in a big 561 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: pie with some mild detergent. Actually that will just the 562 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: enzymes and the soap and mild detergent will just dissolve 563 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: the fat and the grease is left behind. So the 564 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: surface of the bone that is pristine, and that sort 565 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: of treatment does not affect any damage, any cracks or 566 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: any notches, any cut marks, anything on the bones like that. 567 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: So it also if you put a little bleach in it, 568 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: that actually will then make the bones white. So it's 569 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: just careful cleaning with chemicals that don't destroy the bone, 570 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: but we'll get rid of the residue of you know, 571 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: fat and soft. When you say, you know where, I've 572 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: got to ask you this when you say mild detergent. 573 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: Mild detergent did you use, Well, you know I've used 574 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: I've used on before and in fact it's there's several 575 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 1: different brands that if you see on the grocery store 576 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,839 Speaker 1: shelf that says you know with with oxidating enzymes or 577 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 1: enzyme cleaning, those are the best because the different enzymes 578 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: that are in like a variety of detergents, they all 579 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: will break down the fat and the remnants of the 580 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 1: proteins very readily. I will never look at dish soap 581 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: the same again, thanks to you, doctor Chris Sperry. Okay, Well, 582 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: you may be wondering how does dawn dishwashing liquid and 583 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: a golf bag all fit together? Well, just add this 584 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 1: into the mix. The mouse House cheese shop nearly two 585 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 1: hundred miles away. How does that end up in a 586 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: homicide investigation? One day after Kelly Dwyer disappeared, Chris Sucko 587 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 1: left his girlfriend's apartment and hit the room where he 588 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 1: went That morning would be the first in a series 589 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: of clues as to what may have happened to Kelly Dwyer. 590 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: Christako had gone to a place called the mouse House. 591 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: What's the mouse house? This is the mouse house eighty 592 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: miles from Milwaukee, near Madison, Wisconsin. One cheese shop in 593 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 1: a state full of cheese shops. Why would he drive 594 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: up toward Madison to buy cheese. It's a very good question, 595 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,280 Speaker 1: A very good question. Sacho says he drove one hundred 596 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: sixty miles round trip to buy a half pound wedge 597 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: of cheese for his girlfriend's parents. But the investigators say 598 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: that he did it to finally dispose of Kelly's body 599 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: somewhere in the rural Wisconsin farmland between Madison and Milwaukee. Okay, 600 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: that's not all he did on his trip one hundred 601 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: and sixty miles away to the mouse House cheese shop 602 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: for a quarter pound of specialty cheese. Just curious Levipage 603 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, what kind of cheese 604 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 1: did he purchase? I am not sure of the exact cheese. 605 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: I know Wisconsin has tons of specialty cheeses. But he 606 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 1: also Nancy, he also went to the mall and purchased 607 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: some brand new sneakers. He traveled eighty miles to get 608 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,879 Speaker 1: cheese and sneakers, and law enforcement found that extremely suspicious. 609 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: Who travels that far for cheese? And not only that? 610 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 1: To Julie Rendelman, New York defense attorney, how would you 611 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 1: counter this evidence? As it turns out, he had his 612 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:34,320 Speaker 1: GPS locator on his phone turned off for seventeen hours 613 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: during his trip to the Mousehouse cheese shop one hundred 614 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 1: and sixty miles away. I think the biggest issue, or 615 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 1: the biggest issue for the defenses, there's absolutely absolutely no 616 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: forensic evidence whatsoever in this case that links him to 617 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: her disappearance, and I think that's counter that's added with 618 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: the fact that even in the video of the house 619 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 1: there seems to be some surveillance that is not saved, 620 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: and so I think the defense can kind of work 621 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,360 Speaker 1: off of both of those. Well, you've got a point, 622 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,280 Speaker 1: Julie Randelman. I guess that's why you win so many cases. 623 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,399 Speaker 1: Listen to our friend Peter van Zant Sarah Hill. There 624 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 1: was nothing on that skeleton to tell us what the 625 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,280 Speaker 1: cause of death was. There was no physical evidence found 626 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: at the scene either, no shaller curtain, no cloth, no towel, 627 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:27,880 Speaker 1: no clothing, and no travel golf bag. But detectives say 628 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: there was one clue left behind the position of Kelly's skeleton. 629 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,399 Speaker 1: Her feet and legs were more over in this area, 630 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 1: with one of her legs completely turned very contorted. The 631 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: same thing with her left arm. It was behind her 632 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 1: back as if she had been scrunched into some kind 633 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,479 Speaker 1: of a container like a golf travel like a golf 634 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: travel bag. Exactly exactly back to leave my page. Crime 635 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter. When they spoke, When Copp 636 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: spoke to Chris Zako, what did he say have happened? 637 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 1: He said that they went back to his apartment. He 638 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,760 Speaker 1: said they did cocaine, had sex, and that they fell asleep. 639 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: He then woke up at nine am the next morning 640 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: and he heard her leaving in the door to his apartment. Click, 641 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,760 Speaker 1: and she was gone. See Julie Rendelman, New York defense attorney. 642 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,720 Speaker 1: That's why you never want your client to speak to police, 643 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 1: because that story sounds pretty innocuous, right, like it could 644 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: have happened just the way Levi recounted it. But once 645 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: you speak to police, you're locked in. So if another 646 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,319 Speaker 1: witness comes forward and says, oh, well, he said he 647 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,319 Speaker 1: went golfing that morning at seven am, that's completely contrary 648 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:46,239 Speaker 1: to what he's told police. And also, why didn't she 649 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: show up on the video. So even if you tell 650 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: cops an innocent story, you shouldn't speak to cops, according 651 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: to defense attorneys, because it can be disproved with hard evidence. Well, 652 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 1: you always want your clients to shut the heck up. 653 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: I mean there's never a time. I don't think there's 654 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 1: ever a single time, no matter how innocent you are, 655 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: that you want a defendant to speak. And this is 656 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 1: a prime example because anything he says, especially, he doesn't 657 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 1: know what the evidence is. He doesn't know what they've 658 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: seen on the video. He doesn't know whether or not 659 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 1: the video has captured him downstairs at the car. So 660 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,360 Speaker 1: nothing he says is going to get him out of this. 661 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,919 Speaker 1: It's better to just remain silent. Well, in the end, 662 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:31,839 Speaker 1: in the end, he is can they deployed? Steiger? Are 663 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: you surprised? I'm not surprised at all. I mean, the 664 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence is so overwhelming. And you know, I'd like 665 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 1: to go back to the point that his GPS on 666 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: his phone was turned off. It has to be more 667 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,439 Speaker 1: than that, because even then you're hitting off the cell tower, 668 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: so his phone had to have been completely turned off 669 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: not to register where he's going. And I would have 670 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 1: gone back as much as I could and cell records 671 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: and see if whatever extended periods where his phone was 672 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,279 Speaker 1: turned off before. Probably not. Of course, he helped us 673 00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: all by going to the making the ridiculous story. Going 674 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,800 Speaker 1: to this store to get a piece of cheese eighty 675 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 1: miles and then that and also to buy a pair 676 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: of tennis shoes was great because it locks in the 677 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: time it's out there. I'd like us like to address 678 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: something that the defense Castle just said. People shouldn't talk 679 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,400 Speaker 1: because they don't know what the evidence is. If you're innocent, 680 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,720 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what the evidence. You know what well 681 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,080 Speaker 1: put Bethanie Marshall's surprised at the outcome. I'm not surprised 682 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 1: at all. I mean, just look at the behavioral evidence. 683 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,439 Speaker 1: She showed up at work with bruises around her neck 684 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,879 Speaker 1: and her wrists. He was leading a double life. They 685 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: had been together for an entire year, Nancy. And when 686 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: you're with someone for an entire year who's trying to 687 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 1: asphyxiate you, leading a double life, the relationship has never consolidated. 688 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,840 Speaker 1: It is something other than a romantic relationship. It is 689 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 1: somebody who's priming a victim. And so to think that 690 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 1: this was a relationship gone sideways is a wrong way 691 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 1: to look at it. This was a homicidal man grooming 692 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,319 Speaker 1: a victim. Right now, we understand that Zacho, planning his 693 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:07,359 Speaker 1: appeal behind bars, We wait as justice unfalls. Nancy Grace 694 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: Crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,