1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: The whole focus at emphasis on return to the office 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: is a total lack of him. It's got nothing to 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 1: do with the future of work, nothing, And that's what 4 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: Business Insider and all these people are writing about it, 5 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: like who in the world even understands where this is going? 6 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 2: Which is why I hope my book is going to 7 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 2: basically either wake people up or they got to think 8 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,319 Speaker 2: I'm coming I've become totally demented and delusional, which is 9 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 2: also very likely. 10 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 3: Well, welcome to this episode of Taking a Walk on Buzznight. 11 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 3: And if you like this podcast or you like our 12 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 3: companion podcast which is called Music Save Me, one of 13 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 3: the best things you can do is tell your friends 14 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 3: about it. And I so appreciate your support. Today I 15 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 3: welcome one of the supreme best human beings on the planet, 16 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 3: Rashad Tobakawala. He is a teacher, advisor, author, Buddha in 17 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 3: my opinion, named by BusinessWeek, is one of the top 18 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 3: pioneering in the business world. Time magazine also has dubbed 19 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 3: him one of the US marketing innovators. Two books Restoring 20 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 3: the Soul of Business and a new book that we're 21 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,199 Speaker 3: going to be talking about as well, called Rethinking work. 22 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 3: He's a returning guest on taking a walk. So welcome back, 23 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 3: Rishad to Bakawalla. 24 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Buzz, and thank you for your 25 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 2: kind words and for inviting me back. 26 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 3: It's always great to see you. So you recently, like 27 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 3: I attended the Consumer Electronics Show and other than some 28 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 3: sore feet from fifteen to twenty thousand steps a day, 29 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 3: are there any particular takeaways that you can bring to 30 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 3: this conversation from your visit to CEES twenty twenty five. 31 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: Yes, so I would say that there are three big takeaways. 32 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 2: The first one clearly is not surprisingly, everything had AI 33 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 2: in it on it and even if it wasn't, uh, 34 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,519 Speaker 2: it was going to be AI. So you know, very 35 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 2: much like you know your bus your website will now 36 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 2: be called Busnight dot ai. So everything was going to 37 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 2: basically be AI. But this AI was actually increasingly real. 38 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 2: And the first thing really is that AI continues to 39 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: spread everywhere, and we're actually now moving from generative AI, 40 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: which obviously continues to exist, which is used obviously in 41 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: the creative and other forms, whether it's chagpt et cetera, 42 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 2: to two different kinds of AI, one which you're beginning 43 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 2: to see, which is agentic AI, where AI does some 44 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: work for you. Was to just provide you know, some writing. 45 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 2: And then what we beginning to see is physical AI 46 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,679 Speaker 2: with robots and other kinds of things. So one was 47 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 2: the spread of AI. The second one, I think is 48 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 2: it'll continued to basically see every industry is now increasingly 49 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 2: starting to become a technology industry, and you have everything 50 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: from I believe it was one of the Japanese I 51 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: don't know whether Burbsecurity or Saporo that actually had a 52 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 2: product that used electric used some form of technology to 53 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 2: make you feel that you were eating salt when you 54 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: were not eating salt, you know, across the board. My 55 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:32,279 Speaker 2: sense what's beginning to happen is and these are forwards 56 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 2: that I use which are not my own, but it's 57 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: basically from Brian Cooley who works at CNAD, that technology 58 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 2: is that is really good is in't technology. It's increasingly 59 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: just what works, and what works is something that is one. 60 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 2: It is intensely transparent, where you don't think about the technology, 61 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 2: you just get the benefits of it. It's very intimate, 62 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: so it knows you. It's a better way of seeing personalized, 63 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 2: it's very intuitive, so you know how to use it, 64 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 2: and it is constant, so it's always there, and more 65 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 2: and more it's becoming like that, you know, everything from 66 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 2: bearable objects to obviously the phone. That's the second thing, 67 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 2: And the third, which is also happening is our entire 68 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 2: industry has been built increasingly on two ways of interfacing 69 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 2: with people. One is through search, so increasingly you know 70 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 2: whether it's search and including you know, chatchipts search. And 71 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: then the other one is through streams, so we see 72 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 2: streams when know it's TikTok streams, Facebook, streams, et cetera. 73 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 2: I think we're going to have a third one which 74 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: we began to see, which is conversation. And so we're 75 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 2: going to increasingly converse very much like Scarlett you and 76 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 2: as her doesn't the movie her in a sort of 77 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 2: a voice, so it's a conversation. So your media of podcasting, 78 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 2: right is actually going to be the next way people 79 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 2: are sort of interacting. So you're going to search with 80 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: the stuff stuff is going to be streamed, and then 81 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: the stuff that's going to be conversational, and I think 82 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: AI and a lot of modern technology is going to 83 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 2: be conversational because I can't think of something more intimate, intuitive, transparent, 84 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: and constant than conversation. 85 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 3: When you think of the content creators who all over 86 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 3: the place, no matter what the business, whether it's the media, entertainment, 87 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 3: are fearful of artificial intelligence, what would you say to 88 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 3: them as sort of a baseline opportunity for them to 89 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 3: embrace change rather than be so fear full of it. 90 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: I think there are a couple. One is there is 91 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: a reason to be I would say worried. And the 92 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: reason to be worried, obviously is all these machines are 93 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 2: training on our intellectual capital without in many cases paying 94 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 2: for it. Now, some people are making negotiations, things like 95 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 2: the Financial Times and Access Sprinker have made negotiations, and 96 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 2: others have decided to go to court, like the New 97 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 2: York Times. But there are new technologies and new companies. 98 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 2: Like a gentleman called Bill Gross, who started an ideal lab, 99 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 2: has started something called called pro Rata, and he basically said, hey, Rishard, 100 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: can I get all your content? And if I make money, 101 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 2: we'll share it half half? Okay. So the first part 102 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 2: of it is this is a new world order. And 103 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: if I am a creative I would think of the 104 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 2: following three tactics. Tactic number one is how do I 105 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: monetize as much as possible what people are eating from 106 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 2: me they are going to eat. The second one is 107 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 2: try to figure out a way to put as much 108 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: of your stuff out there, because, in effect, in the 109 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: future of conversation, if people basically go today and ask chat, 110 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: gipt vocally tell me about brashon tobacco Alla, the answer 111 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 2: that will come back will actually make me feel pretty 112 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: good because I'll let them eat my website, not my book. 113 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 2: They will let them meet my website by a free 114 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: sub stack. So I put out a lot of free 115 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 2: stuff that they can eat on, and that allows me 116 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 2: to appear proper. So the whole idea is how are 117 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 2: you represented? If you're a brand. You know, there's a 118 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 2: friend of mine, Pete black Shaw, who has a company 119 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: called brand ranked dowt Ai, how does your brand show 120 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: up over the in these seven different engines chat, ChiPT, etc. Lord. 121 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 2: So second is one is monetize what you can. Second 122 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: is try to understand that this is the new interface 123 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: of discovery where people are going to figure out what 124 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 2: your brand and discovery is and feed it. And the 125 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: third one is think that if you came out of 126 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 2: school today and you have these technologies, what would your 127 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 2: career look like? So reinvent and your career because the 128 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: reality of it is, every time there's been a new 129 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 2: enhancement of technology, the really good creative people have honed 130 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: and practiced aircraft, whether it was you know, the birth 131 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 2: of radio and then television and then Adobe, Photoshop and 132 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: everything else. So the idea is you can't be frozen 133 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 2: in time. The world's worst thing is to basically a 134 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 2: not accept that this is real, be not adapt, embrace 135 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:57,599 Speaker 2: and complement these new technologies. And three is not to 136 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 2: spend some time at least to reimagine what you career 137 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: and what you do looks like. Because what I basically 138 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 2: told people is there are three key things to this. 139 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 2: AI in many cases is going to save money. It's 140 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 2: going to be efficiency. But the efficiency doesn't have to 141 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 2: only be that the person who hires you gets you 142 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: for less. It's you can do more for less. Also 143 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 2: think about that, So there's efficiency, there's obviously effectiveness, which 144 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: is you can be more impactful. But the third one 145 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: is existential risk or existential opportunities. How do you re 146 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 2: imagine your business? And a big part of my new book, 147 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 2: or Rethinking Work, is we keep thinking about work. The 148 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 2: weight was in twenty nineteen, but the weight was in 149 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen was bullshit. It shouldn't have been that way 150 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen. So why do you want to go 151 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: back to twenty nineteen? Because the future doesn't fit in 152 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 2: the containers of the past, and twenty nineteen is the past. 153 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 3: And you just highlight Like one of certainly one of 154 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 3: my favorite reasons for going to cees, it's really too 155 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 3: look at the future and not be frightened by it, 156 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 3: to be aware and then to then be prepared on 157 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 3: how to react and adapt and learn. 158 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And as someone who has been fortunate when I 159 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: was working in my full time job and therefore I 160 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 2: both had access and the budgets, I am somebody who's 161 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: had the opportunity of going to everything from ted CS 162 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: T Davos to just about everything. There is nothing like 163 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: CS because it's one hundred and fifty thousand people from 164 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 2: all over the world, small companies to large companies. People 165 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 2: should be there and people should not be there in 166 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 2: midst of alcohol, drinks and gambling taking a risk on 167 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: the future. And I find that's really cool. And in fact, 168 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 2: I had the opportunity to speak to one hundred and 169 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 2: forty people from a company called Novartists, whose president had 170 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 2: brought one hundred and forty doctors and medical practitioners and 171 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 2: pharmacists and marketers to the Consumer Electronics Show. And his 172 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 2: thing is here is where the future is taking place, 173 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 2: and the companies that are most valuable were born here, 174 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 2: and we should be here because we want to be 175 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 2: among the most valuable companies. And if healthcare is changing, 176 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: we need to be where healthcare is changing. And health 177 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 2: care is more likely to change outside our industry than 178 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 2: just inside the healthcare industry. It's interesting way of thinking 179 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 2: about it, and that is I think what a lot 180 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 2: of people don't recognize is we cling onto the past 181 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: though we want to thrive in the future. And my 182 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: basic belief is the past is pretty good parts of it. 183 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: So I call it the roots. Figure out where the 184 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: roots are, drop the rest, and then take wing. 185 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 3: Well, we all have to dream. And the beautiful part 186 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 3: about CEES is the dreaming part for so many people 187 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 3: who are there who are trying to find it in 188 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 3: their own individual businesses, and for so many who are 189 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 3: dreamers who have created just that walk in Eureka Park 190 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 3: is full of dreamers. So I think the absence of 191 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 3: dreamers more regularly in our society and our businesses, it 192 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 3: makes cees even more critical for the dreaming aspect. Would 193 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 3: you agree with that? 194 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, absolutely, And I think that is you know, 195 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:38,359 Speaker 2: something buzz you've done really well. You sort off this podcast, 196 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 2: you dreamt about it, right. We chatted and I was 197 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 2: fortunate to be one of your first guests, and it 198 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: was you know, people could have talked to you and 199 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: said what's wrong with you? Right, and now you've got 200 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 2: two of them, you know, partnering with our Heart Radio 201 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: and stuff like that, and you dream now. Sometimes dreams 202 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 2: are visions that take you in the right place. Sometimes 203 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 2: dreams are nightmmares that take you backwards. Sometimes dreams are delusions, 204 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 2: but you know you have to start somewhere, and sometimes 205 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: dreams become reality and make a better future, which has 206 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 2: happened for you, and it happens for a lot of people. 207 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 2: But if you don't dream, then then you get stuck, right, 208 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 2: And the reality of it is you do need to 209 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 2: take these chances. And that's what I find about CS 210 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 2: and Growking to a lot of people is you get 211 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 2: inspired to take chances and to me the future, and 212 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 2: I'm going to write about this. I began to realize 213 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 2: that almost everything that we end up doing is about chance, 214 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 2: change and choice. We need to take chances. People give 215 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: us chances, sometimes good chances, bad chances. We're living in 216 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 2: a world of change, and we've got to decide what 217 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 2: choice are we going to make about change and what 218 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: choices we select? So change, chance and choice and everything 219 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 2: else is not part of living, as I basically say. 220 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: You know, the day we stop changing is the day 221 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: we die. And even then we sort of decay, but 222 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 2: now inside a grave or inside you know, crematorial, but 223 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 2: when we're as long as you're living. Right, to me, 224 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: living is an act of change and an act of 225 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 2: creativity and an act of chance. 226 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 3: I'm so grateful for your touch on things that has 227 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 3: been so instrumental in helping me see things differently, certainly 228 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 3: for these podcasts and the way I think about them. 229 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 3: I want to ask you, though, going back in your career, 230 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 3: you have this gentle touch that is so welcoming and 231 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 3: collaborative and engaging and kind. Were you ever a cattle 232 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 3: prod push at an earlier point in your career. 233 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: I wasn't, but I did have bosses who were cattle 234 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 2: at push, I had clients who were cattle product push. 235 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 2: And I began to understand both the benefits of cattle 236 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: product push and there are some benefits of those and 237 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 2: I also began to say, hey, can we get those 238 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 2: benefits without some of the the bad downsides, which is 239 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: leaving people feeling bad about themselves, feeling sometimes bullied, feeling 240 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 2: sometimes inadequate. Right, And I turned it around and I 241 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: basically said, what's good about them is they want a 242 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 2: goal and they have a set of urgency, and they 243 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: believe to get to their goal in a set of 244 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 2: urgency that they have to basically do it with a threat. Right. 245 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: And my belief is urgency is important, having a goal 246 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 2: is important, but could you do it with a instead 247 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 2: of a thread, with instead some form of a attraction 248 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 2: that you are not running away from something, but you're 249 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 2: running to something. And that to me basically meant and 250 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 2: I wrote about this is a having clarity and telling 251 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 2: people where we're going, but at the same time giving 252 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: people a sense of energy that they can actually do it, 253 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 2: if that makes sense. And then third is being generous 254 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: at providing them with resources, including training, so they can 255 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: go do it. And what I found is when you 256 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 2: are when you give people clarity or you work with 257 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 2: them for clarity, and you give them energy, slash and 258 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 2: then belief in generosity, two out of three people will 259 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 2: take it, and one out of three people won't. It 260 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 2: simply means that other one out of three people are 261 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: not right for your company or for the job. Not 262 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: that they're not right people, they're just not right for 263 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 2: the company of the job. And you can discuss that 264 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 2: without yelling and screaming at them, okay, because if you 265 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 2: yell and scream, what might happen is one out of 266 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 2: the three that are not that good might continue to 267 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: do what they have to do because they're scared they're 268 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 2: not that good, and one of the three who are 269 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 2: really good are so good they don't have to take 270 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 2: this shit and they leave right. What I've always basically 271 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 2: told people is I've never ever, ever believed that we're 272 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 2: in a world where companies hire talent. I've always basically 273 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 2: believed we live in a world where talent chooses companies. 274 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 2: And people say, you're mad, And I guess I realized 275 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 2: why I was mad because I was thinking about talent 276 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 2: that's very good, and I've always believed the talent that's 277 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 2: very good has choices, and talent that isn't very good 278 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 2: sometimes does not have choices. You can yell at those 279 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: people and they'll stay because they are cattle. But the 280 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 2: other people basically say, we're not a cow. Where if 281 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 2: I've argue, be if we can basically sell ourselves for 282 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 2: more and do less and make more money and be 283 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 2: treated specially and be massaged while these clowns yell and 284 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 2: scream and prod. And that's my whole basic belief is 285 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 2: if you're world class, why do you have to yell 286 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: and scream a proad. You should be able to just 287 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 2: speak and people should understand. And as importantly, you should 288 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 2: be very open when you're yelling and screaming. That then 289 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 2: people don't yell back and scream back at you, which 290 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 2: they want because they're so scared of you. And actually 291 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 2: the most you learn is when people actually don't yell 292 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 2: and scream back at you. But when people come to you, 293 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 2: you know, buzz, You might come to me and say, Richard, 294 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 2: I think you're wrong on the following four things. And 295 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 2: because we haven't manage conversation all the time. You feel 296 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: very free to come around and say, hey, I'm not 297 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 2: sure these things are right right, which allows me to 298 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: actually grow. But if all I'm doing is the yelling 299 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 2: at you, one you're scared to tell me that. The 300 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 2: other is I hope he dies and fails, I'm not 301 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 2: going to tell him anything. That's what I always say. 302 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 2: People who yell at scream often have not been trained well. 303 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 2: Now that they're bad people, they've not been trained well, 304 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: and in many cases they're deeply insecure. So I basically say, 305 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 2: when someone screams, you're hearing the roar of emptiness and insecurity. 306 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 2: That's all you're hearing. You're not hearing leadership. 307 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 4: We'll be right back with more of the Taking a 308 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 4: Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast. 309 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 3: You know you believe in a multifaceted, multi media, immersive 310 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 3: approach to things with experiences. The way you write your 311 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 3: weekly blog is an example of that. And on display 312 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 3: at ces and then outside of CEES is this little 313 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 3: place called the Sphere in Las Vegas. 314 00:19:58,680 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. 315 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 3: I don't know if you've made it over there, but 316 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 3: what's your take on the future of immersive experiences that 317 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 3: our show so on display at the Sphere. 318 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: So I've had the opportunity to be at the Sphere twice, 319 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 2: once at this CS and once within the first three 320 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,479 Speaker 2: four weeks that it opened. I have not been like 321 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 2: for like a YouTube concert or an Eagles concert. Both 322 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 2: times I saw post Cards from the Earth, which is 323 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 2: the current show that's going on. And the first time 324 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 2: I went is because I heard about it, so I 325 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 2: bought tickets for my wife and daughters and we did it. 326 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 2: And the second time I went is because I'm on 327 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 2: the board of the company that helps created and they 328 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 2: had some prospects and clients there. They invited me as 329 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 2: a board director and I got a behind the scenes 330 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 2: look at it. And I always believe enough in experiences 331 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: to be on the board of a company that has 332 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 2: created that and a lot of other things. So let 333 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 2: me tell you a little bit about experiences. I think, 334 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 2: you know we talk about omni channel. I think the 335 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 2: world of marketing is moving from omnichannel to multi dimensional. 336 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 2: We are starting to move from technology stacks to experience 337 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: tax and there are all kinds of experiences of which 338 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: there are four potential dimensions of experiences. One form of 339 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 2: experience is the virtual experience. The other form of experience 340 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 2: is a twin experience, where you think you're there and 341 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,959 Speaker 2: feels more real than virtual. A third form of experience 342 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 2: is the real world. And a fourth form of experience 343 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,959 Speaker 2: is an immersive complete experience, as happens with unreal engine 344 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 2: and a whole bunch of other things. You put those 345 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 2: together and you see some of those happening at the sphere, 346 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 2: which is a great physical experience. It's a form of 347 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 2: an immersive experience, and it's a real world experience too. 348 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:17,479 Speaker 2: But a lot of people have, for instance, used another 349 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 2: example and they say these things. I was at a 350 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,679 Speaker 2: presentation recently and someone said this stuff is for the 351 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 2: one percent. It is in some ways and not in 352 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 2: other ways. So if you look at the sphere where 353 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 2: the cheapest you can get a ticket is eighty six dollars, right, 354 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 2: this is not cheap for one ticket, And if you 355 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 2: start doing VIP tickets and as stuff, it goes up 356 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 2: to about two hundred dollars right next to me, and 357 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 2: I use it a lot, so I'm clearly one of 358 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 2: the minority. I have a Apple Vision pro which everybody 359 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: basically believes is dead on arrival. It's not dead un arrival. 360 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 2: The Apple Vision Pro is amazing because I believe it's 361 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 2: where the future of work in the future of television 362 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 2: is going to occur. Ah, And I use it more 363 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: like the future of television, and it's a very expensive. 364 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 2: Future of television is three thousand dollars. Actually, by the 365 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: time you're done ensuring it and paying the tax is 366 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 2: four thousand dollars. We have to ensure for twenty nine 367 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 2: dollars a month. Because so expensive. But I use it 368 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 2: everywhere in my travels as my form of television. It's incredible. 369 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 2: In fact, sometimes at home and I have the luck 370 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 2: of having an amazing eighty five inch television, sometimes I 371 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 2: want to watch it on that versus that, which is one. 372 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 2: But everywhere I travel and I want planes it's period. 373 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 2: But the other thing that I do is when i'm 374 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: again working and I'm on a plane or I'm outside 375 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 2: home at home, I have you know, as I talk 376 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 2: to you, I've an XDR displayed these amazing beautiful displays 377 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 2: no book. But on the road I have also a 378 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: great display. I have a back Pro, the top of 379 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: the line back Pro with the retire display. But I 380 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 2: put out this little fake and when I begin to 381 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: have is multiple screens in front of me, it allows 382 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: me to take that screen and be kind a huge 383 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 2: screen in front of me, right, and I could do 384 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 2: a lot of river things. I could also do this 385 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 2: thing where I could have the multiple screeded sort of 386 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 2: me while I have a video running, you know, watch 387 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 2: it like CNN. So just like I'm doing today, can 388 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 2: I basically doing this I'm talking to you. I've got, 389 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 2: you know, the precedent thing the CNN at the back. 390 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 2: I could do the exactly same thing. But that's part 391 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 2: of the future of work. But the real future of 392 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 2: work at the future of television, especially the future of work. 393 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 2: If people don't understand it, I mentioned it in my 394 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: book is I tell everybody here listen, this is expensive. 395 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: It sounds very elitist. The price will come down, just 396 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 2: like it has come down for phones and a bunch 397 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 2: of other things. Go to an Apple store, ask for 398 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 2: a thirty minute demo of Vision Pro. Just ask for 399 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 2: a thirty bitter demo Vision Pro. And when you have 400 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 2: that demo, ask them to show you the Alicia Keys 401 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: rehearsal in spatial video. Once you say that, just remember 402 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 2: what I just said that's the future of work. Right. 403 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 2: You have absolutely no clue that you're not in the 404 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 2: same room as with her. You're in the room with her, right, 405 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 2: She's walking around you, she's talking to you, she's talking 406 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: to her you know her sound people, etc. And you 407 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 2: think you're right there. That today cost thirty four hundred 408 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 2: dollars a person expensive. Okay, Once it's less than one 409 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 2: thousand dollars a person, companies will buy it for everybody 410 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 2: because my basic belief is it's much cheaper than real estate. Right, 411 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 2: And that is what most leaders don't understand. 412 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 5: You don't most of these people talk about these things 413 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:56,719 Speaker 5: like AI, and my stuff is, say, by the way, 414 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 5: if AI really spreads, you're going to require all your employees, 415 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 5: but they're going to actually require them to go work 416 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 5: seventy five percent of the time to one hundred percent 417 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 5: of the time. 418 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 2: So have you started thinking about fractionalized employees? Okay? Where 419 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 2: you're basically thinking about a company that starts today to 420 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 2: compete in a modern world with modern technology and AI. 421 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 2: Which company, outside of a dentist's office will make people 422 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 2: come down five days a week to the office zero 423 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,479 Speaker 2: You would never start a company like that that includes 424 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 2: this Jeff Bezos with Amazon day zero starting a company 425 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 2: would never started that way where I told them and 426 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 2: they started clapping right. So my basic belief is this 427 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 2: return to the office thing is first or wrong question. 428 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 2: That the question should be how do I maximize the 429 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 2: benefits of in person interaction? The second one, to a 430 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: great extent is you should basically be asking a much 431 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 2: more important question, which is how do I reimagine my business? 432 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 2: And is it that the reason people are not coming 433 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 2: back to the office. There are lots of good reasons 434 00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 2: for them to come back to the office, but there's 435 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 2: also another reason they're not coming back to the office. 436 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 2: They are not coming back to the bosses because we've 437 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: entered an age of debossification. Stop being a boss, learned 438 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 2: to be a leader. If you don't know how to 439 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 2: manage and inspire people over a screen, you cannot be 440 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 2: a leader. You just cannot be a leader today. And 441 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 2: the reality of it is, if you need to be 442 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 2: looking over someone's physical body to be a leader, you 443 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 2: are so old school. You should go back to basically 444 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 2: trying to basically help people in the gay days of 445 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 2: like cargo ships. And that's as soon as I show 446 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: people what's happening with the future of everything, aging, publishing, declining, 447 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 2: population's marketplace is technology, right, and then I say, what 448 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 2: are we doing? 449 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: The whole focus and emphasis on return to the office 450 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: is a total lack of im It's got nothing to 451 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: do with the future of work nothing. And that's what 452 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: Business Insider and all these people are writing about. Who 453 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: in the world even understands. 454 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 2: Where this is going, Which is why I hope my 455 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 2: book is going to basically either wake people up or 456 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 2: they going to think I'm become totally demented and delusional, 457 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 2: which is also very likely. But the way for the 458 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 2: CEOs have read my books say oh ship right, because 459 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 2: what happens is I just say you're a different ways 460 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 2: of looking at it, you are different frameworks. But I 461 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: don't say there is a way. I don't say there 462 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 2: is one way for the future of work, right. I said, actually, 463 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 2: if I were running a company for a certain group 464 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:32,919 Speaker 2: of people, I would ask them to come to the 465 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 2: office five days a week for the first six months 466 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 2: they joined the company. But that means for those people 467 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 2: who joined the company for six months, I'd say I 468 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 2: needed to come for these reasons. After that This is 469 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 2: the flexibility right. And about those who tell me, hey, 470 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 2: I've got some huge personal or health reason I can't 471 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 2: do it, I'd make exceptions, but I'd say the standard 472 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 2: is this for these reasons and for the at once, 473 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 2: I've got to you trade, doctrinated, build relationships, networks, understood 474 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 2: the company, understood our history, understood all the stuff that comes, 475 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: which is easier to do that way. It's like boot 476 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 2: gap right now you'll have be trained as by you know, 477 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: mission impossible agents you've got through trading. Now you go 478 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 2: out and do your spying and other work everywhere else, okay, 479 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: and then we come back maybe once every quarter or 480 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 2: once every month. They're figuring it out more. You know 481 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: what though, that requires, It requires leaders to actually lead, 482 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 2: to work really hard to reimagine their businesses. So you 483 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 2: are the same company that says I want to be 484 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 2: agile and I want to keep my casts under control, 485 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 2: and then they say we don't like flexible work and 486 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 2: we want to pay a lot of money in real estate. 487 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 2: Which one do you want? Now? The good news is 488 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 2: buzz Because I don't have a job. I can speak 489 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: like this without fear of being fired. Because I don't 490 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 2: have a job. Okay, but once I and of course 491 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 2: don't speak like I speak with Kinder if that makes sense, 492 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 2: I just say, like, I don't understand why you would 493 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,719 Speaker 2: do it like this. I would doubt if I had 494 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 2: a job today, and the good newser I had a 495 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 2: job for a lot a lot of time and effect. 496 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 2: Those are some of the things that I find really, 497 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 2: really unusual, which is why one of the things I 498 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 2: admire about you is a lot of people say it's 499 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 2: too late, We've grown too old. How can we change right? 500 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 2: And my whole thing is like, okay, Warren Buffett made 501 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 2: ninety five percent of as wealth, ninety five percent of 502 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 2: AS well after his sixty fifth birthday. Okay, so tell 503 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 2: me exactly how old you are now, so ninety nine 504 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 2: percent of your potential has not been used. If you 505 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 2: actually can re imagine things. 506 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 3: I love it. And now, when you were out to 507 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 3: worrying for restoring the soul of business, I call it 508 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 3: worrying because you are a rock star. 509 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 2: So I don't want a rock star basically, you know, 510 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 2: I speak for my money and food. That's what I 511 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 2: call it. 512 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 3: A rock star. So when you were out touring as 513 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 3: a rock star for restoring the soul of business. How 514 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:20,239 Speaker 3: early on in that process shaped the beginnings of the 515 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 3: Rethinking Work book that you're just putting out. 516 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 2: So Rethinking Work so the business really stay Give it 517 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 2: to the Age of Data is really a book of 518 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 2: essays which say that to be successful you have to 519 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 2: combine mathod meeting story at spreadsheet. And in order to 520 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 2: do that, a lot of the book talks about things 521 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 2: like the importance of magic change, the importance of constantly learning, 522 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 2: which is upgrading your mettal operating system, the importance of 523 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 2: being able to stell truth to power while keeping your job, 524 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 2: which was a chapter called the Total of the Table. 525 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 2: But what was interesting is there were two chapters in 526 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 2: the book that started to actually reveal the future of 527 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 2: work in that book, which wasn't clear to Metal a 528 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 2: year later when something else happened. So the second chapter 529 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 2: in the book is called the Darker Side of Brighter Screens, 530 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 2: and it was how do you manage teams in different 531 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 2: places who don't actually meet in person that often, which 532 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 2: I had to do because I was working in a 533 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 2: global company and I had teams all over the place. 534 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 2: So how do you manage a culture where you've got 535 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 2: teams in five different cities and things like that. The 536 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 2: second is the end of the book, basically had a 537 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 2: chapter seeing prepare for the Third Connected Age, which literally 538 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 2: has a chapter five years ago on blockchain AI and 539 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 2: other things. And so those two chapters were like were 540 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 2: like the seeds of what might happen for the next 541 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 2: book without me knowing that one became clear as I 542 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 2: was going on my tour. Is from time to time 543 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 2: a lot of people started bringing some of that up. 544 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 2: But what really happened was two months after my book 545 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 2: came out, everything closed. So my book came out in 546 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 2: jan twenty twenty, and Masch Twait twenty, everything had closed. 547 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 2: And you know, COVID actually happened in November of twenty 548 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 2: ninety in China. But so my book had come out 549 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 2: when COVID had started, but we didn't know COVID had started. 550 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 2: And so then immediately after COVID started, which is only 551 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 2: six months after I finished my full time job, every 552 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 2: one of us worked from home for two and a 553 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 2: half years. And then is when this book took shit, okay, 554 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 2: because I began to realize that as I was talking 555 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 2: to people about my first book, the things that were 556 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 2: coming up were issues that I started addressing in the 557 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 2: second book, and the single biggest thing that became very 558 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 2: clear to me is the following, which is there were 559 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 2: five pieces who I work is changing. So my book 560 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 2: basically says five reasons, of which COVID is the least 561 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 2: important reason. Okay, and what people are taking away from 562 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 2: COVID is also the wrong thing. We're three things to 563 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 2: take away and everyone's taking only one of the three. 564 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 2: So let me the first start with what are the 565 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 2: five reasons why work is changing? One not surprisingly and 566 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 2: people don't seem to understand a societal change. So the 567 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 2: United States population is in decline. If you block immigration, 568 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,360 Speaker 2: it'll decline really fast. The United States population is aging 569 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 2: eleven two hundred people turned sixty five every day. This 570 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 2: is true aging population and declining population in every country 571 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 2: of the world, accepting seven and the continent of Africa. 572 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: So it's true everywhere. We have five generations of work, 573 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 2: with young people and older people having completely different mindsets. 574 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 2: We basically have the rise of the freelance economy, with 575 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 2: seventy five million people next year will work freelance, which 576 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 2: is orsus seventy four million people who work full time 577 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 2: So you had these societal changes that were happening. We 578 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 2: had technology changes, of which Air happens to be just one. 579 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 2: We have the rise of market took places, which is 580 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,399 Speaker 2: the ability for us to do plug and play, which 581 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 2: is in effect, a market place could be like Amazon 582 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 2: Web Services. A Mac marketplace could be like Shopify. A 583 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,839 Speaker 2: marketplace could be like upwork and freelancer. So marketplaces where 584 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 2: we can both get resources as a small company that 585 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 2: allows us to scale and find places to sell, which 586 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 2: is particularly interesting sixty six percent of Asia. And the 587 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 2: last thing really is COVID and the three things you 588 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 2: take away from COVID. What people have taken away from 589 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 2: COVID is changed where we work. Yeah, but that's the 590 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 2: least important. You're the two most important. What COVID did 591 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 2: is it changed what we thought about work. Okay, we 592 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 2: begin to ask life is too short? Maybe instead of 593 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 2: asking how do I fit life into my work, I 594 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 2: have to figure out how do I fit work into 595 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 2: my life? So it's not where we work, but what 596 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 2: we think about work. But the other one that it 597 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 2: basically did is it made us wake up and realized 598 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 2: that in twenteen nineteen we were using two thousand and 599 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 2: two we had twenty nineteen technologies in twenty nineteen, but 600 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 2: we were using them as two thousand and two technologies, 601 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 2: and in June of twenty twenty, by Juno twenty twenty, 602 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 2: we were all working using twenty nineteen technologies or twenty 603 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 2: twenty technologies. So it accelerated. Changed. What COVID did is 604 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 2: it fast forward right behind us into the future. Changed 605 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,280 Speaker 2: what we thought about work, and also having to change 606 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: where we work, which is the least important of those three. 607 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,919 Speaker 2: And so if you think about it, there are these 608 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 2: five factors, of which COVID happens to be one of 609 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,439 Speaker 2: three factors. And the thing we fixate is on one 610 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 2: of the three of the least important parts of COVID. 611 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 2: And if that's the way you're going to plan your future, 612 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 2: any executive, for any individual, or any talent, you are 613 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 2: not going to succeed. Right. These are seismic changes. You 614 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,280 Speaker 2: have to rethink work. 615 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 3: Congratulations on book two, Rashad rethinking work available everywhere under 616 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 3: the sun. I'm thinking Amazon, Rashad, Tobakawaala dot com and 617 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 3: wherever a book is you can get it. 618 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, And if people want to know more about it, 619 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 2: including the first twenty five pages of the book for free. 620 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 2: Just go to Rethinkingwork dot io. So if you've got 621 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,839 Speaker 2: to Rethinking work dot io, you've got all of it 622 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 2: and also way to buy it if you want to 623 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 2: buy it for your company's scale based buying discounts, etc. 624 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 2: But do buy it because I do believe that you know, 625 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 2: it's not like I'm going to make a whole bunch 626 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 2: of money if you buy it. I get three dollars 627 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 2: every time you buy a book. So I set that 628 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 2: I like helping people, and I do believe that this 629 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 2: is a manual. But anybody who works, whether you're a 630 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:57,479 Speaker 2: leader or you just joined a company, or experience, because 631 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 2: everybody's a leader. But if you're very experienced or less experience, 632 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 2: regardless of your country and regardless of your industry. I've 633 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,760 Speaker 2: written it in such a way it's basically a manual. 634 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 2: So think about it. Is if you want to be 635 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 2: a great writer, you know you read or you sometimes 636 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 2: have a tosaurus and you know will and Strong and 637 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 2: other kinds of books. This one is that it's one 638 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,399 Speaker 2: of the books that people are going to sort of use. 639 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 2: It's a little bit different, and I hope it'll be 640 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 2: like and I've talked to the gentleman whose father wrote 641 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 2: the book What Color Is Your Parachute, which is the 642 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 2: biggest book in the world of work, that was really 643 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 2: about who are you and how to get a job? 644 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 2: This one is really it's not as good as that, 645 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,760 Speaker 2: because that's amazing. I've read the book. This a legendary book, 646 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 2: but it's sort of like this generations like What Color 647 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 2: is Your Parachute, which is how you saw in the 648 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 2: future as an individual and as a leader as a company. 649 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 3: Thanks for your generosity, Rishad, your inspiration and your friendship. 650 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 3: So I'm grateful for it, and thank you. I appreciate 651 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,280 Speaker 3: you being on. Thank you for listening to this episode 652 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,479 Speaker 3: of Taking a Walk. You could find Taking a Walk 653 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 3: at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts. 654 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 3: And Taking a Walk and our music Save Me Podcasts 655 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 3: are proudly part of the iHeart podcast network.