1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Frye and 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy B. 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 2: Wilson. 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: We talked about Patrick Lyon in the first US bank 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: robbery this week. I did not know this story in 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: any way at all. I had never heard any aspect 8 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: of it. And when you told me this is what 9 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: you were working on, I was also like, oh, a 10 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: bank robbery. I cannot even think of when is the 11 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: last time we talked about a bank robbery on the podcast. 12 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I know, and I will confess to you I was 13 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: actually researching another bank robber when a different bank robbery 14 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: was invoked as the first bank robbery in the US, 15 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: and I went and looked for that and I was like, 16 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: wait a minute, there's one way before this. And so 17 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: that's how I ended up down this particular rabbit hole, 18 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: which completely fascinated and engaged me. We did not mention 19 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,959 Speaker 1: during the show, but Carpenter's Hall still exists. You can 20 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: even book it for events. I imagine it's pricey, but 21 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: I haven't looked into it, but that'd be a cool 22 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: place to do something. One of the things that I 23 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: didn't put in the outline, but is interesting to me 24 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: is that Patrick Lyon was laid to rest next to 25 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: his daughter Clementina, but not either of his wives. And 26 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: I wasn't sure why. People I don't know if they 27 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: ended up in their own family cemeteries or plots, and 28 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: Clementina was in one that they had started for the Lions. 29 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what that is. But he's with her 30 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: and not either of his wives, which is just kind 31 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: of interesting. There is a full, I think it's what 32 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty ish pages publication of everything that 33 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: happened in that trial. Oh wow, which is a lot 34 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: of testimony, which is why I was saying, it becomes 35 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: so obvious after you keep reading it for a while 36 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: that it's like the bank just really didn't like him 37 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: and decided that that was who had done it, and 38 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,119 Speaker 1: they just dug in and could not be convinced otherwise. Right, 39 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: And it's like testimony on testimony on testimony of like 40 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: he's the most suspicious, and because Cunningham had died, they 41 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: were able to kind of manipulate his what would have 42 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,839 Speaker 1: been his side of the story to shore up their 43 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: own thing of like, oh, Cunningham would never ever have 44 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: done anything wrong with a key. And it's like the 45 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: guy that robbed the bank told you that was his 46 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: guy on the inside, right, but now you make him 47 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: like this paragon of virtue. 48 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 2: It's so weird. 49 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, that part of it reminded me of all kinds 50 00:02:54,160 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: of like wrongful conviction, wrongful accusation stuff. It still happens today, 51 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: where the rationale is like, oh, she didn't seem emotional 52 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: enough when she was telling us about her husband's death. Uh. Oh, 53 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: he seemed to be too focused on the detail of 54 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: what was happening when that guy was in his shop. 55 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: And I'm just like, so often all of that stuff 56 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 1: is just encompassed in the breadth of how we experience 57 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: and express ourselves as humans. Yeah, uh, and then becomes 58 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: like justification for an entire case against someone. 59 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 60 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: It's so weird to me that they're like, how is 61 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: your memory so good? Well, maybe he just has like 62 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: a you know, nearly photographic memory people do well. And 63 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: none of what we read seemed all that detailed to 64 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: be right. It's like, well, the guys came over. It 65 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: would be weird enough if I had, if I were 66 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: in my little office that presumably did not have a 67 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: lot of foot traffic, and someone related to the business 68 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: I was doing came over with another friend that I 69 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: didn't know. He chatted for a minute, and then they left, 70 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: and then that unknown person showed back up again while 71 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: I was with another customer, just walked around by themselves 72 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: for a little while. I would remember that that's not 73 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,679 Speaker 1: that's a memorable event for most people, right. 74 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's super duper weird. The minuteness. 75 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: They keep talking about the minuteness. 76 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 2: Like that just doesn't seem that minute to me. 77 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: At first, I was I thought I was reading like 78 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: paraphrases of one person's quote that kept bringing up, like 79 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: specifically the word minuteness and minute, and I was like, no, 80 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: it just shows up repeatedly. They just somewhere in their 81 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: whole thing, they were like, he was so minute, and 82 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: that's what they all started repeating. Yeah, bizarre. Yeah, one 83 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: of the funnier parts of the testimony. To me, again, 84 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: it's not funny that he was held wrongfully, but some 85 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: of the ways that people behave is comedic to me, 86 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 1: and especially in context of the world we live in today. 87 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: And one of the big fox sie of the whole 88 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: thing that kept coming up was whether or not Smith, 89 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: who was the cashier of the bank, ever swore or cursed, Okay, 90 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: like that being some sort of marker of whether or 91 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: not he was a gentleman. And his barber named Jay 92 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: initial j Riser was very forthright about like, yes, he 93 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: swears in my chair all the time, Like, yes, of 94 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: course he does. And it just was so funny to 95 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: me that there was a whole side argument going on 96 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: about whether this person ever used foul language or not, 97 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: and sitting in the year twenty twenty four, where there 98 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: is a whole lot of wild and wooly stuff going 99 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: on in the public and political stage, the idea of 100 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: a fixation on whether someone you know ever dropped the 101 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: word damn as a bomb in a sentence, like, Oh, 102 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: that's that's so quaint, right. It's kind of like when 103 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,679 Speaker 1: we did our episode a while back on James Fair 104 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: and his affair, his extramarital affair got him drummed out 105 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: of Congress, and I'm like, how quaint It's. 106 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 2: Wild to me. 107 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: The other fun part is that after painting Lyon's portrait, 108 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: Nagel's career really took off. Yeah, he kind of even 109 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: though that portrait was definitely a departure from the accepted 110 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: style and composition of the time. Like normally, if you 111 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: were going to get your portrait painted and you hired 112 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: someone to do it, you wanted to look like a 113 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: fancy pantsy unicorn. You wanted to be featured in your 114 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: absolute best thing, not looking sweaty in front of a 115 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: blacksmith forge. But everyone loved that portrait so much, and 116 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: it got so much attention because of its unique qualities 117 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: that like suddenly he was the it portraitist for a 118 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: lot of people in Philadelphia and beyond. Right, even though 119 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: most most people I think today would say this is 120 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: still like one of his very or two now of 121 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: his very best works, but it is quite interesting. I 122 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: love the pettiness of no put you put Walnut Street 123 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: Prison in that portrait with me? 124 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: You do it. 125 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: I'm I'm not letting anybody forget what those. 126 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 2: Weasels did to me. 127 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: I love everything about that level of pettiness. Anyway, Anyway, 128 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: bank robberies will never know really where that key came from. Yeah, 129 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: somebody had one, we don't know. But since you know, 130 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: it seemed like Isaac Davis spent a lot of time 131 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: gawking at the keys while he was there. I mean 132 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: that here's what happens in my head and my fanciful 133 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: how did this potentially play out? The what if scenario is, 134 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: did he send that woman in to engage lying in 135 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: conversation and then he went in and diod time like 136 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,239 Speaker 1: a really fast like wax imprint of a key. 137 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 2: That's my theory. I'm reminded of some. 138 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: Book that I read when I was a child, so 139 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: I just I don't remember. Somebody in the audience may 140 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: remember and send us an email, but it was a 141 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: book that I read, like in elementary school years. I 142 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: think that involved a kid at a boarding school that 143 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: needed to break into a place and made an impression 144 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: of the teacher's key into a bar of soap and 145 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 1: then whittled it out of would And I'm like, that's 146 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: that's what I think happened here. 147 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 2: Something cool, something cool. 148 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm I'm delighted that this was one that 149 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: took you my surprise a little bit, because yes, it's 150 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: a again not fun that he was wrongfully imprisoned, but 151 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: it is a fun story, yes, in terms of how 152 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: it all goes and how weird it is, and also 153 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: who robs a bank and then deposits the money in 154 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:28,719 Speaker 1: the same bank. 155 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 2: I thought about that a lot. 156 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: I was like, what that would bless your heart moment. 157 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: I'm not saying I would ever rob a bank, but 158 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: if I robbed a bank, I would not be putting 159 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: the money in any bank, right, definitely not in the 160 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: same bank, not in the bank. Yes, and again I 161 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: did not rob any bank. Wild that a person would 162 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: take that course of action, It is really really kooky 163 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: to me. I wish, oh how I wish that we 164 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: could get the story of logic on that of like, yeah, 165 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: like what what was the decision making process there? 166 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: I know what I'll do? 167 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, And Isaac Davis kind of blips out of the 168 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: whole thing. Apparently there was a moment it gets invoked 169 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: during the trial record that he had been back he 170 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: like left Philadelphia. He upoutied once they were like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 171 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: your pardon. Apparently he had been in Philadelphia at some 172 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: point early in the eighteen hundreds, and at that point 173 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: Patrick Lyon was like, does anybody want to question this guy? 174 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: Like do you want to get initial information? And nobody did. 175 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: But I saw in one thing and I wasn't able 176 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: to verify it. It may have been in the materials 177 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: I had, but there was a lot of them, so 178 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: I may have just missed it that he patrick Lyon 179 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,839 Speaker 1: had actually gotten Davis to write a letter saying explicitly 180 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: patrick Lyon was in no way connected to that robbery. 181 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 1: He did not get involved at all. This is now 182 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: in writing, It's not just me talking to the bank dudes. 183 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 1: And yet everybody was like, yeah, but still we think 184 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: he did though, but are you sure, because we're pretty 185 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: sure he must have. He's just he's a mastermind, clearly right. 186 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: Another thing that plays out in the rich fantasy life 187 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: of my head, in the fictional version of this in 188 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: the petty Olympics, is that at one point, one of 189 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: those weasels houses burning down, and Patrick Lyon is like, 190 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: oh really you want a firetruck, just standing outside the 191 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: guy's house watching it burn while he sits with his 192 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: fire truck apparatus. That's not really how any of that 193 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: would have worked, but in my head, in the petty 194 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: comedy of my head, right, if you were writing this screenplay, 195 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: that would have been kind of fair, Like remember how 196 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: you held me for months in a root seller and 197 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: barely fed me enough to live and then told my 198 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: friends they couldn't see me anymore. I mean, I it 199 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: seems a little fair at that point, Yeah, it seems 200 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: a little fair. Those are really sad. There's one piece 201 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: of testimony from one of his friends. It was like 202 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: I visited him initially, but then they stopped letting me in, 203 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: and I had seen him looking worse, but then I 204 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: couldn't see him anymore. And it's just like, it's so 205 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: beyond wrongful imprisonment because at that point it's just weird 206 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: and cruel. It's like you haven't been charged with anything, 207 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: and yet you get essentially like isolation. 208 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 209 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the comical elements of this episode for me, 210 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: are are kind of counterbalanced by having, you know, read 211 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: the coverage of so many things about people who were 212 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted or wrongfully accused and in some cases like 213 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: substantial evidence that they did not commit the crime, and 214 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 1: we're then executed for it. 215 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 2: And so it's like, well. 216 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: This goes back all the way to the beginning of 217 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: the legal system in our country. I mean, this one 218 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: is nice because in the end, you know, he proves 219 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: the truth right, takes them for a ride legally, and 220 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: comes out victorious, So it's a little easier to stomach 221 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: because of all that. Right, if it had ended terribly 222 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: and he had not, as he feared, gotten out of jail, then. 223 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 2: It would not be a fun episode at all. 224 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: Right, And he did apparently at one point have yellow 225 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: fever while he was imprisoned, but he survived it, which 226 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 1: is extraordinarily fortunate because a lot of people did not. 227 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 1: And he also kind of started to advocate in general 228 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: for people who were held whether they were one, he said, 229 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: there are a lot of innocent men in that jail, 230 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: and two they're not getting treatment, Like, they're not living 231 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: in hygienic conditions, even the ones that had a better 232 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: air quoting could because it clearly wasn't a better situation 233 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: than what he had, Like, he's like, they're still getting sick, 234 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: there's still a lot of infection, and nobody's being treated 235 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: or cared for. So I don't know that that really 236 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: had a direct impact on anything in terms of like 237 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: improving care. Clearly, you know, there were a lot of 238 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: people who still felt very comfortable talking trash about him 239 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: even after he had lived through that improven his innocence. 240 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: But right, right, humans, you disappoint me. But also when 241 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: you deposit, you're stolen money in the place you stole 242 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: it from, you delight and enchant me. It's a mixed bag, 243 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: but it's yeah, fundamentally, like I said, the underdog comes 244 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: out on top in the end, Right lives a great 245 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: and wealthy life, sticks it to everybody with his portrait. 246 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: I love it. 247 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 248 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: One of the things that we did this week was 249 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: talked to Toby Ball about the podcast Rip Current. I 250 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to Toby for a couple of reasons. One, 251 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: this all started with Nomes Griffin, who's one of the 252 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: producers at iHeart who worked on this show, sending a 253 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: note to me say, Hey, what if Toby were on 254 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: your show? And I thought it would be an interesting 255 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: opportunity one to talk about some history that's a little 256 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: more recent than you and I totally cover, to talk 257 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: about what it's like to make a podcast that's so 258 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: very different from yours and mine, because what the two 259 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: of us do is we researched the episode, and we 260 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: write the episode and then we record. 261 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: It right. 262 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: And Rip Current involves a lot more going through archival 263 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: audio and interviewing a lot more people and all of 264 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, and I personally have not worked 265 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: on a show that involves that kind of production, but. 266 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: You have, I sure have. 267 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: I have not at all, But you take on a 268 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: lot more other projects at work than I do regarding 269 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: making other podcasts. 270 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I. 271 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: Thought that might be an opportunity for our listeners to 272 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: sort of hear what the behind the scenes is like 273 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: on another type of podcast that is also talking about history. 274 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 275 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, those are always tricky. There's a moment early on 276 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: where I usually when I'm dealing with something like that, 277 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: and it's always my own fault. I'm always like, here's 278 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: how we should do this, and then we actually get 279 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: all the stuff, and then I just want to start 280 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: crying because I'm like it's too much too dig through. Yes, 281 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: one of the things that we talked about in the 282 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: interview was like the process of getting all of the 283 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: information together. Holly has not heard the interview yet, so 284 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: I am telling Holly Toby's method for putting together his 285 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: thoughts and his information and his research involves index cards 286 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: of different colors and then putting those together. And I 287 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: got the impression when he said that that he that 288 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: we might think that was an odd thing to do, 289 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 1: But I was like, oh no, that was absolutely my 290 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: process for a long time until it became easier to 291 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: move things around with a mouse. Yet I still like handwritten, Yeah, 292 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: I do, whether it's index cards or I got really 293 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: into for a while, like just at home, I keep 294 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: a giant whiteboard, huh. And I had at one point, 295 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: like when we were doing drawn and I was trying 296 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: to figure out some of this stuff, I kind of 297 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: had like this weird numbering system where I would just 298 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: as we did an interview, I would number the interview 299 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: and be like, this is interview number one, two, this 300 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: is three, and then I would stack those numbers into 301 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: a grid by topic where it would be like that 302 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: one talked about you know, early Walt Disney studios. This 303 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: one talked about you know, termite terrace and those studios. 304 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: This one talked about bugs bunny. This one did not. 305 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: And that's how I did. So what a visual is 306 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: great for me? Right, I can parse it out a 307 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: little more easily that way. Yeah, there are things that 308 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: I do like writing by hand, making a little chart 309 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: or a list or whatever, But writing things out by 310 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 1: hand is so much more laborious for me than typing it. Yeah, 311 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: that if I can type something, that's usually what I'm 312 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: going to choose to do. We also had a moment 313 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: the two of us while I was listening to episodes 314 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: of Rip Current that I found funny, and I thought 315 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: we would sit here a little bit. And so, parents, teachers, 316 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: if you're listening to this with younger people, I'm just 317 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: gonna say, maybe skip ahead just a little couple of minutes, 318 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: or I'm not sure. 319 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: I think this is the Friday episode, so. 320 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 1: Maybe even this is a place to just check out 321 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: of this behind the scenes, because we're gonna be talking 322 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 1: about some Manson family stuff. So I was listening to 323 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: Rip Current, listening to all of the episodes that had 324 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: come out so I could prepare for this interview, and 325 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: there was audio footage of one of the members of 326 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: the Manson family talking about how like their sexual relationships 327 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: with each other and said something like, we would have 328 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: sex with each other, and we would have sex with him, 329 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: We would have sex with each other with him, just 330 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 1: like a family. And I was not expecting the just 331 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: like a family. And I said what out loud, And 332 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,199 Speaker 1: then when I relayed that experience to you, you were like, 333 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: did you not know that? And I was like, I 334 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: knew the first part, but it was just like a 335 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: family that really threw me. Ye, And that is when 336 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: we realized that, like our our familiarity with the Manson family, 337 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: very different experiences. Yeah, I mean I have a few, right. 338 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: I had mentioned that, like Manson was another one of 339 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 1: those things that got talked about in my house growing 340 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: up a lot, and that my mom and my two 341 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: sisters read Helter Skelter together. Yeah, and Helter Skelter would 342 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: not have been a book that was allowed to be 343 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 1: in our house, right. But to be clear, like my 344 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: sisters are much older than me. It wasn't like my 345 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: mom was like, hey, eleven year olds, would you like? 346 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: It was like they were late teenagers at that point. Okay, yeah, 347 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: probably junior and senior year of high school. 348 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember correctly, but so so. 349 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: But then also, it's come up in various other points 350 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: in my life, like there was a play called Your 351 00:20:54,200 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: Children about Charles Manson that somebody I knew in college. 352 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: Did I think a staged reading of so? I was 353 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: just very familiar with that material, but in that way 354 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: that you think that your experience is universal. I was like, Tracy, 355 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: what are you talking about you've never heard this book, yeah, 356 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: And I was like, I've never I had never heard 357 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: that clip. I had never read that as a quote. 358 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: The first part of it about how they were all 359 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: like basically all having sexual relationships with each other and together. 360 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 1: That was not the surprising part. It was the then 361 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: equating that to like a family, as though that's all 362 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: how all families work, And I was like, what. 363 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 2: Ambling right now? 364 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: Because I grew up in a household, I would say 365 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: I was pretty sheltered raised Methodist, which growing up Methodist 366 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: in North Carolina in the nineteen seventies and eighties, on 367 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: the spectrum of Protestant religions, I feel like kind of 368 00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 1: in the middle in terms of how conservative, broadly speaking 369 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 1: we tended to be. But also Satanic panic happened, and 370 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: my mom was very concerned about anything that might lead 371 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,880 Speaker 1: my brother or me into devil worship, So anything involving 372 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: Charles Manson was off the table for being appropriate to 373 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: read or talk about, right. I guess part of it 374 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: for me too, is like if my mom said that, I'd. 375 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 2: Be like aunt well. 376 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: And I was also very much a rule follower in 377 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: contexts where the rules made sense to me, and I 378 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: thought they mattered, so like I did not. I did 379 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,959 Speaker 1: not do homework that I thought was a waste of 380 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: my time, even though doing the homework was the rules. 381 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: But if my mom told me that I needed to 382 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: do a load laundry every day, then I was going 383 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: to do the load laundry every day. I mean, I 384 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,360 Speaker 1: think it's safe to say I was a more rebellious 385 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: child than you. 386 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it seems correct. 387 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 388 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: I didn't have a ton of respect for anybody. I 389 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: even remember telling my mom when I was like seven, 390 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: you don't get my respect just because you're older than me, yeah, 391 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: which I feel like you would never have said to 392 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: your parents. 393 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 2: No, no, no. 394 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, you can imagine how well that went over. 395 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 2: Yeah I didn't. 396 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 1: I didn't start being more rebellious until I was like 397 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: in my teens and started trying to do stuff like date. 398 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: But even then, like there were still there were still 399 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: a lot of rules, and if I broke the rules, 400 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 1: there were definitely consequences for having done that, and I 401 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: still tended to be like a rule follower in a 402 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: lot of other ways. 403 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 2: So anyway, all exchange made me laugh. 404 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I'm glad I have gotten to do 405 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: a couple of interviews lately. One of them will not 406 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: be out yet by the time this episode comes out, 407 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: so folks can look forward to having another interview suit 408 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 1: related to another podcast. So again, Happy Friday everyone, whatever's 409 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: happening on your weekend. I hope it's great, and I 410 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 1: hope that you come and join us tomorrow for a 411 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: Saturday classic and on Monday for something brand new. Stuff 412 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 413 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 414 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.