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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to work in Progress,

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Speaker 1: where I talk to people who inspire me about how

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Speaker 1: they got to where they are and where they think

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Speaker 1: they're still going. Today's guest is a very dear friend

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Speaker 1: of mine. In fact, she is a sister friend. And

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Speaker 1: what I mean by that is she's the kind of

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Speaker 1: soul friend who feels like my family. And she happens

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Speaker 1: to be the one and only Glenn and Doyle. I

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Speaker 1: met glennon years ago, and I'm telling you, guys, we

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Speaker 1: instantly hit it off. Her honesty and the way she

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Speaker 1: shares about her life and welcomes everyone into her circle.

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Speaker 1: Her horseshoe, in fact, is so inspiring to me. Today

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about how we met. We're going

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Speaker 1: to go through her story. We're going to dig into

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Speaker 1: why we need to change the expectations we put on

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Speaker 1: girls and how we raise um, and of course we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk all about her latest book, Untamed, which

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Speaker 1: you absolutely have to read. We started chatting right away

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Speaker 1: about being morning people and how she takes advantage of

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Speaker 1: the early hours of the day. So if you're catching

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Speaker 1: this first thing in the morning, you're welcome. And if

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Speaker 1: you're catching it later, You're still going to be inspired.

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Speaker 1: I promise she's that good. Enjoy Are you a morning person?

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Speaker 1: I am only a morning person, And I actually think

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Speaker 1: that's why I get I'm done by five, because I'm

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Speaker 1: usually up three hours earlier than to three hours earlier

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Speaker 1: than everyone in the house. So I'm usually five. I

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Speaker 1: figured out a long time ago, especially with little ones

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Speaker 1: when they were when my kids were little, but that

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Speaker 1: was the only time I was myself m there was

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Speaker 1: And also I'm most creative in the morning. That's the

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Speaker 1: only time I can really write creative, last first thing

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Speaker 1: in the morning. But there's something about like being a

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Speaker 1: woman that the minute the world wakes up, you just

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Speaker 1: get thrown into a million different roles and service and

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Speaker 1: showing up and all the things. And so I figured

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Speaker 1: out that there's a couple of magical hours in the

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Speaker 1: morning where I was like nobody's mom, nobody's wife, nobody's loss, nobody,

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Speaker 1: Like it's completely outside of roles, and it really feels

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Speaker 1: like soul time to me. And I feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: like pulling one over on the world because like I've

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Speaker 1: already been up for hours before everybody else gets started,

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Speaker 1: So it like like like, if I do nothing else

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Speaker 1: the rest of the day, I've already done my things.

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Speaker 1: I've usually done creative by the time the sun comes up.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, that's my magic time. I like magic time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's if I don't have it for a while, I

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Speaker 1: feel myself start to get itchy. You know, I always

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Speaker 1: ask women because I just it's like that time, you know,

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Speaker 1: and untamed where one of the themes is like when

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Speaker 1: I saw Abby then I thought, there she is about me,

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Speaker 1: about yourself, and I I think we're all in this

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Speaker 1: moment of reckoning or awakening where we realize we have

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Speaker 1: to feel that way about ourselves. We've been cultured for

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Speaker 1: so long to think that what we need is outside

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. It's in our person, it's in our partner,

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Speaker 1: it's in the Disney prints. It's in the body we

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Speaker 1: want to have, or or the house we want to

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Speaker 1: move into, or the Pinterest board that will eventually become

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Speaker 1: our life if we try hard enough. And we spend

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Speaker 1: all this time folding ourselves into these weird little pretzels,

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Speaker 1: and then we wonder why our bones hurt m because

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Speaker 1: nobody ever talked to us about the reality that it

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Speaker 1: has to be in us. It has to be of us.

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Speaker 1: The thing we're looking for is us. That's why I

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Speaker 1: love your book so much. Well, it's just hustle cult, sure, man, hustle,

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Speaker 1: It's just I can't, I can't. It feels like That's

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Speaker 1: why I put the story in the beginning of Untamed,

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Speaker 1: about the chasing, the chasing of the dirt. Right, yes,

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Speaker 1: you know, really and truly it's simple. At the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, it's that we are born and then

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Speaker 1: as women and men have their own ridiculous ideals and expectations,

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Speaker 1: but ours are clear, and we get these ideals put

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Speaker 1: in front of us, and these like things that they

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Speaker 1: tell us will make us happy and will make us

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Speaker 1: feel like we belong and we'll make us feel successful,

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Speaker 1: and we'll make up. And then we just spend our

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Speaker 1: whole lives hustling to to achieve those things. And and

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Speaker 1: they're all the things you just said, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: their beauty standards, their career standards, their personality standards. And

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Speaker 1: then the crazy thing is is that sometimes we get

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Speaker 1: lucky and to get those things, and then we realized

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Speaker 1: that we're still ourselves and that right, which is tragic

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Speaker 1: at first, and then awesome, because at some point you realize, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's not that I'm not enough yet, it's the hustle.

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Speaker 1: The hustle culture is the problem. Yeah. And and to

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Speaker 1: your point, there are there are universal truths to this.

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Speaker 1: I I have a friend named Lewis who, much like Abby,

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Speaker 1: did a lot of sport. He was he became he's

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Speaker 1: a sport person. He became an All American athlete, which

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Speaker 1: was the thing he'd always wanted. And he said, the

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Speaker 1: euphoria lasted for about eight minutes, and then he went

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Speaker 1: right back to being angry. And and his his male

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Speaker 1: version of this stuff was all of the sort of

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Speaker 1: shaming and enraged culture and all the stuff that destroys boys,

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Speaker 1: and and he got the joy for eight minutes, and

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Speaker 1: then he was right back to being a great and

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Speaker 1: what like that's the ultimate for the boy, like in

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Speaker 1: our only only gave your worthiness for boys by you know,

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Speaker 1: of course all the emotion suppression and only they're only

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Speaker 1: allowed to be angry. We're not allowed to be angry.

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Speaker 1: They're only allowed to be angry. Um right, But professional sports,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's like she right, that would like the

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Speaker 1: epitome of a woman, you know, becoming a supermodel, while

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Speaker 1: making the perfect home, while having three point five children,

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Speaker 1: while having the love and there it's like the epitome

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Speaker 1: of male success. So how tear to even reach the

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Speaker 1: epitome and realize there's there there? There's no there there. Ah.

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Speaker 1: We well, we've just jumped right into this, which doesn't

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Speaker 1: surprise me because I've never not jumped right into things

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Speaker 1: with you. When we met, this was years ago. You

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Speaker 1: were you were doing this incredible speaking tour. Um I

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Speaker 1: figure I should give the audience a little backstory on

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Speaker 1: how we're able to do this together. And I was

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Speaker 1: so excited. I was working in Chicago at the time,

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Speaker 1: and you guys were doing a Chicago stop and you

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Speaker 1: had asked if I would come and do this conversation

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Speaker 1: with you. And you know, it's at this enormous theater auditorium.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what do you even call that arena? I

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Speaker 1: don't know, a sport place in Chicago. And we met

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Speaker 1: in the back before we went on stage, and we

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Speaker 1: were just we were barefoot on the couch together in

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Speaker 1: thirty two seconds, holding onto each other's bodies, just like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: thank god you're here. And I thought, oh, this is

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Speaker 1: one of my people. How cool I know when I

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Speaker 1: meet my people. And and yeah, we've we've been friends

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Speaker 1: ever since. We've done a lot of speaking together ever since.

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Speaker 1: And there we had a fun we had a fun,

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Speaker 1: little secret exchange which we'll we'll get into later that

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Speaker 1: happened on that first night. But I just remember thinking,

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Speaker 1: here's a person who says out loud a lot of

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Speaker 1: things that I think on the inside that I haven't

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Speaker 1: always been sure I'm allowed to say out loud. But

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Speaker 1: when I do, I always feel better. And I know

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Speaker 1: that that is a way that so many people feel

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Speaker 1: about you, and about your work, and about the way

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Speaker 1: that you're willing to share yourself, not just for yourself,

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Speaker 1: but but in a way because when you stand steady

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Speaker 1: in front of the fire, you show everyone else it's

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Speaker 1: possible to you. You welcome everybody else to the bonfire

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Speaker 1: with you. I'm very honored to know you. You do

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Speaker 1: the exact same thing. So that's how we knew we

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Speaker 1: were people. We were each other's people. Isn't that weird?

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Speaker 1: When I think about that, that is so weird because

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Speaker 1: I feel like you are a cozy person. Okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: not that cozy of a person. Abby has always said,

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Speaker 1: and she said this one time and hurt my feelings

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Speaker 1: so much until we got to the bottom of it.

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Speaker 1: She said, you know, you are a lot of things,

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Speaker 1: but nice is not on them. You're not nice. And

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Speaker 1: I was like the kids were. It was in front

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Speaker 1: of the kids, and I was like so devastated. But

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Speaker 1: the point being that it is very unusual. I am

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Speaker 1: an raging introvert and I'm super sensitive and so I

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Speaker 1: am and boundaries are like my my the loves of

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Speaker 1: my life are abby, my children, coffee boundaries. Okay. Um.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that I walked into a room and

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Speaker 1: you and I were were in um barefoot, and I

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Speaker 1: remember I didn't want to go back to the stage.

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Speaker 1: I remember just thinking, can we just stay here in

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Speaker 1: the couch forever? Like can we not go to this

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Speaker 1: where all the thousands of people out there? And we

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Speaker 1: had to go back. But I think it's so cool

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Speaker 1: when you were saying that that sometimes that happens and

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Speaker 1: you just know the energy is there and you know

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Speaker 1: this is going to be a person, and we celebrate

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Speaker 1: that right when that happens, And it just makes me

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Speaker 1: think we should also honor it when the opposite happens.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, you know what I mean. Like, we don't

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Speaker 1: feel need to explain why that happened with us or

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Speaker 1: why the energy was just perfect. We don't say, oh,

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Speaker 1: well are you're You're such a good person and I'm

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Speaker 1: such a good person, and so that's why this happened.

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Speaker 1: We just honor the kinds of collective energy that was matched.

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Speaker 1: But like when we don't feel that energy with someone,

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Speaker 1: we always feel like we have to explain in a

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Speaker 1: million ways or blame a person's personality or blame it

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Speaker 1: on our personality when all people's energy just aren't right

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Speaker 1: for each other. M h you know what I need? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and that that's okay. But again, I think that

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Speaker 1: speaks to us always having been told we have to

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Speaker 1: be nice, we have to be welcoming, we have to smile.

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Speaker 1: Think about when you watch somebody tell their their three

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Speaker 1: year old child that they have to hug a relative

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Speaker 1: who's unfamiliar to that child, and then that little baby

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Speaker 1: learns that they're feeling of I don't want to in

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Speaker 1: their body, doesn't matter, because you're gonna hug this person

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Speaker 1: because it's nice. We're taught from such an early age

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Speaker 1: to go against our own instincts. And then, especially heaven forbid,

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Speaker 1: as women, if we don't like something or we just

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Speaker 1: don't feel free or complete around someone, well then we

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Speaker 1: must be she's a bit if she thinks that, you know.

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Speaker 1: And the the extra heavy messages, I mean, the studies

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Speaker 1: about like even even awake parents, okay, even parents, that

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Speaker 1: we are doing it equally when when they're studied, the

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Speaker 1: number of social cues the parents give to little girls

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Speaker 1: versus little boys about being nice, calling about being likable,

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Speaker 1: like those that we have about and it's not because

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Speaker 1: we're bad people as parents. It's because we were raised

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Speaker 1: in a culture that taught us a million different ways

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Speaker 1: that little girls will only be loved and accepted if

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Speaker 1: they are accommodating and sweet, and and they abandoned themselves

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Speaker 1: in order to not rock the boat, and they they

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Speaker 1: cause it, allow themselves to have constant inner conflict, so

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Speaker 1: outer conflict. Right, So that's what we do. We want

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Speaker 1: our kids to be accepted, So we subconsciously passed these

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Speaker 1: expectations onto our little girls. And then this is what

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Speaker 1: I find fascinating said it, and I can't wait to

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Speaker 1: get your take on it. The amount of people who

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Speaker 1: say to me, okay, and they say this with all

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Speaker 1: good intention. I want to support women. I want to

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Speaker 1: support women like you do. I want to love women

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Speaker 1: like you do. I want to whatever. But the women

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Speaker 1: are always the ones stabbling in the back. The women

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Speaker 1: are always the ones talking behind my back. The women

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Speaker 1: are always And I think it's so interesting because I

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Speaker 1: actually know what they're saying, like I understand, like it's not.

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Speaker 1: We can't be just like pretend that that's never true

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Speaker 1: as feminists, like we can't be like, oh they don't,

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Speaker 1: that's never happened to me, because of course at hats okay, right,

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Speaker 1: we all know that that has happened. But I wonder

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Speaker 1: if if women would stab each other in the back less,

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Speaker 1: if as little girls we were allowed to stab each

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Speaker 1: other in the face more, right, It's like directness and

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Speaker 1: transparency and just saying how you feel, much more allowed

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Speaker 1: in little boys. Then it r isn't little girls, right?

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Speaker 1: We are trained constantly to swallow it and smile, swallow

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Speaker 1: it and smile, be pleasant and be pleasant. But we're

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Speaker 1: just as human, right, So what happens when a little

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Speaker 1: when a person is swallowing it and smiling all the

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Speaker 1: time is it always comes outside base right. Well, the

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Speaker 1: way I think about it, the image that comes to

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Speaker 1: mind for me, and I don't know why because I

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Speaker 1: don't scuba dive, so literally, I don't know why this happened.

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Speaker 1: But you know, like scuba divers wear those oxygen tanks

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Speaker 1: on their backs, and those tanks are pressurized, and if

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Speaker 1: you put too much oxygen in a tank, it will explode.

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Speaker 1: And and so when anything is overly pressurized, it blows

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Speaker 1: a gasket, it blows a leak, like pipes in a

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Speaker 1: house will burst, and then the basement floods because there's

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Speaker 1: too much volume for the amount of space. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's what happens to girls, and that's what happens

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Speaker 1: to women. We've been forced to do exactly what you said,

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Speaker 1: Swallow it, Swallow it's swallow it, swallow it, and we

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Speaker 1: get so overfilled that then these things. It's like when

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Speaker 1: the daggers shoot out of the woman's eyes at someone,

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Speaker 1: that's not even about the person she's looking at. When

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Speaker 1: when you express anger or frustration about something or you

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Speaker 1: think someone is annoying, it might not even be about them.

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Speaker 1: It's about the fact that you've not been able to

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Speaker 1: talk about how someone hurt you years ago for so

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Speaker 1: long that now you think everyone is kind of a

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Speaker 1: dickhead who hurts you. You know, little little boys just

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Speaker 1: like punch each other on the playground and then they're

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Speaker 1: over it. They're allowed to do more of that. M So,

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Speaker 1: so what why are women more direct because they're trained

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Speaker 1: not to be direct? Well, and this is exactly where

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Speaker 1: and this was supposed to be my first question, but

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Speaker 1: ha ha, I love that. I thought i'd have a plan.

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Speaker 1: This is where I want to go back and ask

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Speaker 1: you to tell me the story of the Cheetah and

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Speaker 1: the Pink Bunny, because you referenced it earlier and I

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Speaker 1: think it's such a soul shaking ah ha moment, providing

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Speaker 1: way to start a book. And you opened Untamed with

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Speaker 1: this story. And then it made sense to me because

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Speaker 1: when you sent me your book, you sent me this

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Speaker 1: beautiful note and you said to me, sister, you are

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Speaker 1: a goddamn cheetah, and it made me cry. And I

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Speaker 1: didn't even know the story yet, but I like, I

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Speaker 1: choked up when I looked at the note. So something

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Speaker 1: in me knew exactly what you meant, because I think

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Speaker 1: it's something that's in all of us, So will you

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Speaker 1: tell the people at home about cheetahs. I was looking

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Speaker 1: for a metaphor, okay, because I had just gone through

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Speaker 1: this experience which I wrote about and Untamed, which is

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Speaker 1: that I was in a broken marriage with a good man. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that is a very tricky place for a woman to

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Speaker 1: be because we're supposed to just be grateful for good enough, right.

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Speaker 1: I just kept trying to make it good enough. I

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Speaker 1: just kept trying to do all the right things I

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Speaker 1: was supposed to do to have forgiveness, just like fall

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Speaker 1: to me, you know, falling my head from the sky

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Speaker 1: and feel better. But I was angry all the time.

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Speaker 1: It's angry all the time, and I and I just

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Speaker 1: felt this like longing, this nagging inside of me that

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Speaker 1: just was this constant question like wasn't it supposed to

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Speaker 1: be more beautiful than this? Wasn't it supposed to be

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Speaker 1: more beautiful than this? You know? And then I met

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Speaker 1: Abby and um and that story is in and Untamed.

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Speaker 1: But after we've been together for a little while, I too.

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Speaker 1: We took our daughters to the Safari park and we

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Speaker 1: went to this thing called the Cheetah Run, Okay, And

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Speaker 1: so we're on the side of this like race track

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Speaker 1: kind of thing, and we're waiting for this Cheetah run

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Speaker 1: to start. The kids are so excited. There's all these

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Speaker 1: families out and this zookeeper comes out and she's holding

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Speaker 1: the leash of a labrador. Okay, so I'm right away like, um, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm not a scientist. But if she tells my kids

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Speaker 1: that this labrador is a cheetah, I'm getting a refund, right,

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Speaker 1: I'm getting my oy. So she says, okay, kids, do

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Speaker 1: you think that this um this is Tabitha the cheetah

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Speaker 1: And the kids are like no, and she says, you're right.

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Speaker 1: This is Mini. Tabitha, the Cheetah's best friend. Tabitha was

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Speaker 1: born into captivity, was born into the zoo, so we

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Speaker 1: raised Tabitha alongside Mini so that Mini could team Tabitha.

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Speaker 1: And now Tabitha wants to do everything that Mini does.

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Speaker 1: So first Mini is gonna run the Cheetah run while

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Speaker 1: Tabitha watches, and then Tabitha will run it. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: this lab lines up on the starting line. This little

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Speaker 1: weird jeep thing has a pink stuffed bunny tied to it.

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Speaker 1: The jeep takes off, Mini the lab cheese is this

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Speaker 1: dirty pink bunny across the finish line. Yeah yeah, yeah, Okay.

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Speaker 1: Then they pulled Tabitha out. Okay. Tabitha the cheetah is

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Speaker 1: the gorgeous, huge, terrifying, majestic creature. She's like stalking her

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Speaker 1: way to the starting line. Her muscles are rippling beneath her.

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Speaker 1: For the crowds like all quiet, and the zookeeper says, go,

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Speaker 1: and this gorgeous, majestic wild animal chases this dirty stuffed

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Speaker 1: pink bunny down this well worn narrow path that she's

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Speaker 1: been doing every hour, every day since she was born.

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Speaker 1: And the crowd is clapping ya yayaya, and while the

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Speaker 1: clouds crowd is clapping. So I just I just thought,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, this is it. This is what I

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Speaker 1: have been doing. If it is possible for a wild

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Speaker 1: animal like a cheetah to be tamed into forgetting who

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Speaker 1: she is m hm, to be tamed into spending her

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Speaker 1: entire one, wild and precious life chasing somebody else's dirty

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Speaker 1: pink funnies, then that can happen to a woman too, right.

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Speaker 1: That's when I figured out, oh, all of these things.

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Speaker 1: Be a good girl, be a good mom, be pretty,

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Speaker 1: be accommodating, be perfect, be um, don't be ambitious, don't

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Speaker 1: be all of these ideals and should and shouldn't, I mean,

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Speaker 1: all of the ones that had to do with religion

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Speaker 1: and faith for me, and then have a just gender

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Speaker 1: and have just sexuality. All of these cages I had

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Speaker 1: been in, I just I just started to see them

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Speaker 1: as Oh, these are the dirty pink funnies that somebody

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Speaker 1: else planted for me a long time ago. And the

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Speaker 1: reason why I am exhausted, and the reason why I'm

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Speaker 1: overwhelmed and underwhelmed and I don't feel like I am

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Speaker 1: living my true purpose is because I'm chasing somebody else's

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Speaker 1: dirty pink funnence m m. And then so okay. So

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Speaker 1: the zookeeper puts Tabitha away in like this big field,

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Speaker 1: and she comes back and she says, are there any questions?

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Speaker 1: And this little girl raises her hand and she says,

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Speaker 1: is Tabitha sad? Doesn't Tabatha missed wild? And the bookeeper says, oh, no, honey,

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Speaker 1: she was born here. This is a good, safe life

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Speaker 1: for Tabitha. She doesn't even know any better. And my

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Speaker 1: daughter is heading next to me, and she nudges me, right,

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Speaker 1: and she points at Tabitha and in this bigger field,

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Speaker 1: So Tabitha is like a different creature. Okay, she's she's

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Speaker 1: just she her. She's like sit standing up like her

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Speaker 1: her neck just has grown six inches, and she's stalking

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Speaker 1: the periphery of the field, just like looking out beyond

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Speaker 1: the field at some place we can't see. It's like

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Speaker 1: she looks completely majestic now, like in a little scary

356
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Speaker 1: and tishe goes money. She turned wild again. God, I

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Speaker 1: have a true And I just looked at her and thought, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I don't believe you, zookeeper. I don't believe that she

359
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Speaker 1: doesn't know better, Like this might be all she's ever seen,

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Speaker 1: but she knows somewhere, Like if we could talk to

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Speaker 1: that Sheeta, she would say, I don't know what's wrong

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Speaker 1: with me. I know that all there is is cages

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Speaker 1: and dirty pink funnies and labs. But inside me, I

364
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Speaker 1: feel like I was meant to sleep under starless skies.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I was meant to hunt and kill.

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Speaker 1: I just feel like it was all supposed to be

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Speaker 1: more beautiful than this. M Right, there's something by that

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Speaker 1: animal that knows better this is the voice of longing, right,

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Speaker 1: this is the voice that we all have that looks

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Speaker 1: at our lives and our relationships and our communities and

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Speaker 1: our nation and our world and says, I know this

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Speaker 1: is all I've ever seen, but I just have a

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Speaker 1: hunch it's supposed to be more beautiful than this. Then

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Speaker 1: comes the universal gas lighting of women. Right then when

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Speaker 1: we say no, I just don't think this is right.

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Speaker 1: I don't feel I feel like this isn't right, then

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Speaker 1: the whole world goes, oh, just be grateful, Just be grateful.

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Speaker 1: You're crazy, that's crazy, that's crazy. She's crazy. Right. That's

379
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Speaker 1: why the last line of that was you're not crazy,

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Speaker 1: You're a goddamn cheetah. Because because had Tabitha been able

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Speaker 1: to say, I have these hunches, I have these this

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Speaker 1: vision that it's supposed to be more beautiful than this.

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Speaker 1: Actually remembering her her destiny that was that was the wilderness,

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Speaker 1: the rest of the world would have said to her,

385
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Speaker 1: don't be crazy. This is what your life is. Just

386
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Speaker 1: your lab, your lab. We trained you to be a lab. Right,

387
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Speaker 1: And that's what happened to me, man, I mean, that's

388
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Speaker 1: what happens to all of us. We are born wild

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Speaker 1: individual selves, and then because of the way civilization is

390
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Speaker 1: set up, we begin to be assimilated into zeus. Right.

391
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Speaker 1: We have to be assimilated into families, into social groups,

392
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Speaker 1: into religions, into genders, into sexualities, into nations, right, and

393
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Speaker 1: the cost we have set up systems where the cost

394
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Speaker 1: of belonging is your individuality. If you're a girl, this

395
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Speaker 1: is how you act, and if you don't act this way,

396
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Speaker 1: you will be tribal shamed. You are a Christian, and

397
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Speaker 1: this is what you will believe, and this is what

398
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Speaker 1: you will say. And here are the people you will hate.

399
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: And if you don't, and you dare to admit that

400
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Speaker 1: you don't, you will be tribal shamed. Here's what a

401
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: boy does if you step out of line, right, Here's

402
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: what a straight person does. Here's what an American does.

403
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 1: God help us follow like the patriotism line. Right. So

404
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 1: what I am obsessed with right now is and by

405
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Speaker 1: the way, like bless our hearts, we know the way

406
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: that we have survived is to give up some of

407
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Speaker 1: our individuality for the protection of the herd right that

408
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: is evolutionary in us that we need in order to survive.

409
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: We need the protection of the hurt. But now, Sophia,

410
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: I feel like we are actually at this point that

411
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Speaker 1: is a changing time in the history of the world.

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Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is, I think now

413
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Speaker 1: our survival as a species is going to be resisting

414
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Speaker 1: that urge to give our individual voices or belonging right. Yes,

415
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 1: and I think part of it is because not to

416
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: get to you know, conspiracy theory on it, but there

417
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: are big forces in the world that have made a

418
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: lot of money and clutched a lot of power by

419
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Speaker 1: taking advantage of the human instinct to protect the herd.

420
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Speaker 1: And now it's not so much about protecting each other

421
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Speaker 1: so we survive. It's about hoarding and calling that protection.

422
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: If we were really prioritizing our human herd, we would

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Speaker 1: have universal health care, We would have the best education

424
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Speaker 1: system in the world. Our kids wouldn't be going to

425
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: school and schools that are jokes, our teachers wouldn't be

426
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: paid the least. We would be doing everything differently if

427
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: we really were saying, hey, this is about our survival,

428
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: but we we market survival of us. We we we

429
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: sort of like put that on like a sweater over

430
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: a skeleton. That is, it's me against you, and I

431
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: think women are leading the reckoning of Oh. No, I can't.

432
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: I can't claim to love my children and not say

433
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: something about other people's children being in cages. I can't

434
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 1: say that I support women but sit silently when I

435
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: hear women talking poorly about another woman. I can't. We

436
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: we have to align our identity and our values. And

437
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: I think that those things, to your point, come from

438
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 1: the knowing. We're dropping below the culturing and we're dropping

439
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 1: into the knowing, and we know there's something out in

440
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: that field, like Tabitha did. Yeah, because and that's and

441
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: and that we call that that all different things, right,

442
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: I mean, I call my knowing that thing inside me

443
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 1: that always guides me towards the next right thing, right knowing.

444
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: When I figured out that none of the answers were

445
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: outside of me, and nobody else freaking knew what the

446
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: hell I was supposed to do, right, so I kind

447
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: of stopped doing what I was trained to do as

448
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 1: a girl, which is, in every moment uncertainty, look outside

449
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: of myself instead of inside of myself. Right, Because boys

450
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: are trained to look inside themselves for wisdom, and little

451
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 1: girls are trained to look outside of themselves for consensus

452
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: and permission and approval. Right. We learned that right around

453
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: ten years old, and then we became forty four year

454
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: old women who, in my case are up at three

455
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: a m. Googling what should I do? My husband is

456
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: to cheater, but a really good death. So during that

457
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 1: time in my life is when I realized, Okay, uh,

458
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: nobody else knows what I should do, because nobody else

459
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: has lived this life that I'm living, with my pain

460
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: and my talent and my potential and my purpose and

461
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: my people. Asking other people what they should do, it's

462
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: just what I should do. It's like asking people for

463
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: directions to places they've never been, right, because everyone lives

464
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: is a complete, singular, unrepeatable, unprecedented experiment, right, And there's

465
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 1: no map. All of our problems come from trying to

466
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: find a map, and there's no map. We're all just

467
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: frequent clueless pioneers. Right. So I figured out if I,

468
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: if I looked inward, if I really got still enough,

469
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: that there was kind of this strange nudge that I

470
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: don't know how to describe because it's beyond language, but

471
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: I describe it and untamed as like this kind of

472
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: liquid gold that if I just like turn inward or

473
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: long enough, there will be this filling or the nudge

474
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: that would point me towards the next right thing, one

475
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: thing at a time. Right. But I don't think of

476
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: it of Tabitha's turning inward as that. I feel like

477
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: Tabitha's turning inward that place that she that we all

478
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: find inside of ourselves that says it's supposed to be

479
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: more beautiful than this. I think of that as imagination

480
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: might I think imagination is faith to me, And I'll

481
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: try to describe that. Faith to me has absolutely nothing

482
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: to do with religion. It has nothing to do with

483
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: like following a set of rules that were set by

484
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: a bunch of old white men yons ago to control

485
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: the world. Like, that's not what I mean. One in

486
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,719
Speaker 1: my favorite definition of faith is the unseen order of things. Okay,

487
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: it's a belief in the unseen order of things. It's

488
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: like there's two orders of things. There's visible order, which

489
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: is reality, what we would know as the material world,

490
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: like what we see when we turn on the news,

491
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: what's happening out there. And then there's an unseen order,

492
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: and that's inside of us, and that's the part of

493
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: us that when we look at that scene, order, even

494
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: though it's the only thing we've ever known, rejects it.

495
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: It's like, that's not right. The world is not supposed

496
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: to be like that. They're supposed to be less seen.

497
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: They're supposed to be more equality. Children are supposed to

498
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: be fed, women are supposed to be like that's because

499
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: we have this unseen order pressing inside of inside of

500
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: us and saying, oh no, it's supposed to be more

501
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: beautiful than this, and we don't trust that right because

502
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: we look outside inside of ourselves that we think that's

503
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: as good as it's ever going to get. I really

504
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: believe that imagination or that place we go to to

505
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: look for the unseen order, it's not imagination isn't where

506
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: we go to escape reality. It's where we go to

507
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: discover the truest reality that we were meant to bring

508
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: forth into the world, right, because that's how that's why

509
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: we're born. We're all born to bring something new to

510
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: the world that the world has never seen before, whether

511
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: it's an idea or a poem, or a garden or

512
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: a business or a family or whatever it is. So

513
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: what I've started to realize, like whenever people talk to

514
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: me about why they can't do the thing they were

515
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: they know to do, you know, because we all have

516
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: that discontent or we have that longing inside of us.

517
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: So people will say to me, you know, I want

518
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: to quit drinking, but I can't. I want to go

519
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: back to nursing school, but you know, a good mom

520
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: is supposed to stay home with our kids. I want

521
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: to leave my emotionally abusive husband, but I made my

522
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: bed and so I have to lie in it. Or

523
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: whenever they talk to me in the language of should

524
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: and shouldn't bad or supposed to or right and wrong,

525
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: what's the right thing to do? All that language is

526
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: in doctor nation. There's no good and bad. That's there's

527
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: no should and shouldn't, there is no right and wrong.

528
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: Those are all culturally concerned, right because like, for example,

529
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: so when when I found out about the infidelity craigs infidelity,

530
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: I lived in this I still do kind of live

531
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: in this wild and diagram where I'm like half feminist,

532
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: half Christian wacko place to be right. And one thing

533
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: that was so fantastic for me is when I started

534
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: looking into what I should do in the in the

535
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: wake of infidelity. Omanists said the right thing to do

536
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: was one thing. Christians said. The right thing to do

537
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: was the opposite thing. What I realized is right and wrong.

538
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: They're not pure. They're completely culturally constructed, man made concepts.

539
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: Right keep dogs that keep the masses in the heart.

540
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: That's it. So if you want to know what was

541
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: meant for your one wild impressions like you can't use

542
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: language like that, right and wrong, good and bad, none

543
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: of that matters. So what I started to do is

544
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: when women tell me I can't do this or I

545
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: should or shoudn't, I'd say, okay, stop. Tell me. What

546
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: is the truest most beautiful story about a marriage you

547
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: can imagine? Tell me I want to I want to

548
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: go back to your people, but I can't because you

549
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: know a good mother. Blah blaha, ok, okay, get it.

550
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: What is the truest most beautiful story you could tell

551
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: me about a career? Right? What is the truest, most

552
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: beautiful story you can tell me about your community? What

553
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: is the truest most beautiful story you can tell me

554
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: about a friendship? And this crazy thing happens, which is

555
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: that when you it's like we speak two different languages.

556
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: We speak the language of our indoctrination, with all the

557
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: cans and cans and shims and shifts. But when you

558
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: speak to somebody in the language of imagination by saying

559
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: the words true and beautiful and story, andation shuts down

560
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: and imagination ignites, because imagination is a storyteller, right And

561
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: everybody in the minute you say tell me the truest,

562
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: most beautiful blah blah blah. Their eyes laid up, and

563
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: they have ideas, and they're all differ and and it

564
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: feels like those ideas come from to your earlier point,

565
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: the place where we know what's possible, where we know

566
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: what's good for us. We do so much talking about

567
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: the present and about the journey and about the things

568
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: we've been through in our adult lives and how they

569
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: led us to this place. But as you mentioned earlier,

570
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: talking about the ways that you learned so early, I

571
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: I want to jump back, and it's usually again where

572
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: I start with people. But the forward motion here has

573
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: been perfect and delicious. And I wonder if you draw

574
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: the parallel not between Glennon today and Glennon who was

575
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: googling what do I do if my husband has been

576
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: cheating on me for a decade? But it is also

577
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: a really good dad. Not not even that Glennon of

578
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, but Glennon as a little girl.

579
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: You know, you grew up in Virginia. I wonder now

580
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: when you think about who that little girl was, who

581
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: was learning all those messages? What? What are some of

582
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 1: your early memories? What, what's the beginning for you? Were

583
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 1: you always inquisitive and curious and good with words? You know? Who?

584
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: Who was Glennon at eight or ten? Well, it's so

585
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: sad for me to think about this because, um, I

586
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: don't remember, because I became really really suppressed. So I

587
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: became seriously blieming at ten years old and just never

588
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: got a hold on it at all, And so it

589
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: just got worse and worse. And so the next my

590
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: really all of my growing up years, you know, ten

591
00:35:53,520 --> 00:36:01,720
Speaker 1: until I was twenty five, just became a series of diagnoses, therapists, rooms,

592
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: and medications, and I was hospitalized my senior year. Uh,

593
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 1: they my parents, we didn't have the right insurance for

594
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: an eating disorder clinics. I was actually put in a

595
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: mental institution, like a mental hospital, which by the way,

596
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: I loved. So whenever people feel sorry for me, about that.

597
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, no, no, was way less crazy than

598
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: high school. Okay, I was glad to be there, um

599
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: for real, I was. It was a special place for

600
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: many reasons. But um I because of that life that

601
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: I had for so long, Sophia, I just I realized,

602
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 1: not until a few years ago, that my belief about myself,

603
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 1: my deepest belief, like beneath all the like I'm a feminist,

604
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: I because I'm crazy. Like I just think that we

605
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: kind of all have like this root shame belief that

606
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 1: happens to us when we're little because of some lie

607
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: we're told. And you know, like Abby's Abbe grew up

608
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: a gay kid in the Catholic Church, so we are

609
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: still like yanking at that route belief that she is

610
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: not loved by the divine right. But mine was really

611
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: I am crazy, and I think that I had a

612
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: lot of evidence to support that right. Because of that,

613
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: I stopped trusting myself, because because how can a crazy

614
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 1: person be trusted not to sabotage her life in the

615
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 1: lives of her family, right, But then I started raising

616
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: this child, you know all about Tish, and she, Sophia

617
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: is she is just a super super sensitive kid and

618
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: um and I watched her. She cares the most amount

619
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 1: about everything about our family, about herself, about the world,

620
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 1: about her friend, and about kids who are not She's

621
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 1: her heartbreaks very easily, and she she lives inside out

622
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: like she's inside up right. It's t'sparent, Mason Jark and

623
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: and what I mean, Sophia. I would never in a

624
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 1: million years look at that child and say, oh, she's crazy,

625
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 1: she's broken. I think so. I think she's like a prophet,

626
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: you know. And I think in most cultures, for as

627
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: long as time has happened, folks who are super sensitive

628
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: spokes like you, folks like Tish, looks like me, and

629
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 1: most cultures we are identified early, right, we are noted

630
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: to be a little bit eccentric, a little bit different,

631
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: but crucial to the tribe survival because we are the

632
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: canaries in the coal mine, right. We are who can

633
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: see things that other people can't see, and who are

634
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 1: willing to feel things that other people can't feel. So

635
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 1: we become in most cultures, you know, the shaman or

636
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: the medicine men and women, or the poets or the

637
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: clergy or the you know, the people who are standing

638
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: on the about the Titanic going Iceberg, Iceberg, our culture

639
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: will we're so held bent on power and efficiency and

640
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: speed at all costs that everyone else is just like

641
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: we just want to keep dancing right. So it's easier

642
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: just to dismiss us and call us rather than understanding

643
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: that we are responding appropriately to a broken system and

644
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 1: that a wise culture would pay close attention to the right.

645
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: So it's revolved all of my ideas about myself as

646
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 1: a child, which just I am answering your question, which

647
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: is that I parenting tishe has has helped me free

648
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: myself because I realize now that I'm not crazy and

649
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: was never crazy. Well, and that's what strikes me when

650
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: I hear you talk about But the revelation really that

651
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: your daughter is to you is that parenting her in

652
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: a way allows you to reparent yourself, you know, you

653
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: you get to really create a healing in reverse. And

654
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: when I think about the way that you love her

655
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: and the way that you mother her, and the Abbey

656
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: mothers her, and that and that Craig shows up for

657
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: her as her dad, it's such an amazing thing to

658
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: see a kid be so supported. And I think it's

659
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: a about you as a parent and B I think

660
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,399
Speaker 1: we're so lucky to be living in this time where

661
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: we are in this awakening and where we do have

662
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: this this kind of newer access. You know, my mom

663
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 1: and I were talking about this a little bit, and

664
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: she said, you know, who you're going to get to

665
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: be as a mom is different than who I had

666
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 1: the opportunity to be as a mom. She was like,

667
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: I didn't have all this research. We weren't talking about trauma,

668
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: we weren't doing any of that. We were all kind

669
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,760
Speaker 1: of doing the best we could. And I think about

670
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: the shift in this generation and how big it is

671
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 1: when when you think about what your resources were were

672
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: you Were you finding solace in books? Were you journaling?

673
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: What were your outlets for all these big feelings that

674
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: you felt when you were Titus age that obviously we're

675
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: coming out sideways in this eating disorder. Where where did

676
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: you have an outlet in a good way? Yeah? Well,

677
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: my only I believe that, my only real good outlook.

678
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: I have always instilled you. I was always the kid

679
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: who just was in the corner reading the same over

680
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 1: and over and over again. Right, That's always who I

681
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: have been, and I just I find it sometimes tricky. You.

682
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 1: You wear your outside on the your insight on the outside,

683
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 1: which is probably why I felt comfortable right away with

684
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: you in that room. But I usually don't feel that way.

685
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: I usually feel anxious in in like social situations because

686
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: I feel like, even if it's not to me, it

687
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: always feels like we're acting like I don't understand it.

688
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: It's like, like I seriously can't understand it. I mean,

689
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: I talked about this ad nauseam. She's like, what do

690
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: you mean you don't understand? I'm like, I don't like

691
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: when you walk into a room and you're like, hey,

692
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: how are you hy, and then you talk about things

693
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: like like like things that you don't really care about, right,

694
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 1: like I don't know, I can't. I wish that I

695
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: could do it better. But in books it's never like that,

696
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: right It's like people are talking about their deepest, truest

697
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: realist things, and so it's kind of like a way

698
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 1: to get to the insides of people without having to

699
00:42:53,760 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: deal with the outsides of people that book. But but

700
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 1: I think that was a healthy outlet. I don't remember

701
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: writing writing a lot when I was really little. I

702
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 1: think that for me, what my coping mess mechanism was

703
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: was food. I think that learned early on that I

704
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: was supposed to be happy, Like that's how we teach

705
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: people and everything. They're gonna feel anger and sadness and

706
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: jealousy and fear, and that all of those things are

707
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: completely normal, right, and that none of those things are bad. Actually,

708
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 1: they're all just the whole human experience. I didn't know

709
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: that is that part of why? Because you know, you've

710
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: talked publicly about some of this sort of guilt or

711
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 1: shame that you associated with how you were feeling, because

712
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: you said my childhood was pretty magical, Like why did

713
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,720
Speaker 1: I feel so screwed up? Why did I feel so upset?

714
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: M almost like you didn't feel like you had a

715
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: right to feel your feelings. Yes, And by the way,

716
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 1: how often do you hear that? I I have a

717
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 1: PO box that is just smashed with letters from women,

718
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: like every week, and I would say that, and I

719
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: don't think it's exaggerating of Each of these letters starts

720
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: with I know I should I know other people have

721
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: it worse than me, and I know I shouldn't feel

722
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: this way, But I'm just gonna tell you, like, we

723
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: just don't feel like we have the right to full

724
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: human experience if we haven't, if we're not in the

725
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: middle of what we deem like capital t trauma at

726
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: the moment, right, Like we think that we cannot be

727
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: sad because someone else somewhere is sadder, which is exactly

728
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 1: the same as thaying I can't be happy because somewhere else,

729
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: someone else might be happier somewhere Like, That's just not

730
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: how any of this works, right, It's not like suffering Olympics,

731
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 1: like we actually are all, no matter what circumstances were

732
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 1: in are gonna experience the whole human mma. Right, So

733
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 1: what does happen? I mean, I imagine your parents, We're afraid,

734
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: like you said, they didn't know what to do with you.

735
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: Where do you put this kid with all these big feelings,

736
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: this this behavior snowballs, you know, through high school into

737
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 1: your twenties and then tish then everything changes. So what

738
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: how do we how do we get from teenager at

739
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: the mental hospital to young mom trying to figure out

740
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,479
Speaker 1: what the hell she's gonna do? Yeah, oh my god,

741
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: Well I um, I found out that I was pregnant

742
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 1: on Mother's Day when I was twenty five, and I

743
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: was um so freaking sick. I can't imagine that I

744
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: wasn't close to that death. I mean I was had.

745
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: I was drinking myself to blackout every single night for

746
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: years before that, and I had burnt every single bridge

747
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: in my life, all my relationships, all of it. And

748
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 1: I found myself on a bathroom floor holding a positive

749
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: pregnancy test. And it was one of those moments. It

750
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: was it was one of those imagination moments. It was

751
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: a tabitha moment. It was like, Okay, I see all

752
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: evidence on the outside of me, right, I see what

753
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 1: I see, what a ship show I have created. I

754
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: see that there is clearly no worse candidate for motherhood

755
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: on the planet Earth. And still like there's something inside

756
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: of me that is saying yes, Like regardless of all

757
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: of the evidence on the outside of me that is

758
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 1: saying no, I feel this. It was like how I felt.

759
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: The two strongest moments I felt this are when I

760
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 1: found out a pregnant Chase and when I'm when I

761
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: saw Abby and so I decided to get sober that

762
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: day that I found out that I was pregnant. M

763
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: So I called my sister from the bathroom floor. She

764
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: literally came to my house and picked me up off

765
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: the bathroom floor and took me to my first recovery meeting.

766
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 1: And then that's what began the beautiful, terrible process of

767
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: early recovery, which is a freaking nightmare and is an

768
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: and is the best thing on earth. And everything that

769
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: I know I learned in those few first years, right,

770
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: and what happened. The way that I got from that

771
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,320
Speaker 1: kid who didn't know how to use her big feelings

772
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: and sensitivity to the person I am now is art.

773
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: Art is the art and activism. So I learned in

774
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,399
Speaker 1: those recovery meetings that there is this way to heal

775
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: which has to do with honesty and truth and sharing.

776
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: And then um, I learned that this this sentivity that

777
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: I had as a child that led me into numbing

778
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 1: and alcoholism, I could also use the exact same sensitivity

779
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 1: to be a really good artist. The beginning part, the

780
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: thing that you touch on in recovery that to me

781
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 1: feels like such an important seed. And I just I

782
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: feel like there's people who are listening to us have

783
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: this conversation going, But what what does that mean? The

784
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: thing that you learned to turn into your art? What's

785
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: the seed in recovery. What's the beginning, what's the thing

786
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 1: you have to say in that room that starts your

787
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: new life. I don't know if there's anything that you

788
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: have to say in that new room that starts your

789
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 1: new life. I think it's something that you have to

790
00:48:54,560 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: say to yourself. I don't believe and having long discussions

791
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: with people about whether or not they should get sober.

792
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: I really don't because I think it's all horseship, because

793
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 1: I know that everyone knows. I know that, like all

794
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: of those conversations as circular conversations about do I have

795
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 1: a problem, Do I have a problem, Like people who

796
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: don't have a dreaming don't spend all day wondering if

797
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:31,399
Speaker 1: they have a drinking problem. Okay, okay, if you are

798
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 1: a person who spends all day wondering if maybe you

799
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 1: have a drinking problem, probably okay. And all I care

800
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 1: about is that there is I don't care if people

801
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 1: drink or not. For God's sake. What I do think

802
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,280
Speaker 1: is tragic is when people have something in their life,

803
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: whether boozed or certain relationship or whatever it is, that

804
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 1: is keeping them from freedom, that is keeping them living

805
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: as full and beautifully and with as much joy and freedom,

806
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 1: as we were all designed to write. When people have

807
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: a thing in their life that they know in their

808
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: gut is in the way of them and the life

809
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 1: they were supposed to be living, that's the moment that matters, right,

810
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,320
Speaker 1: that's the moment. And we don't do the thing. We

811
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: don't get rid of the thing because we're scared, because

812
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:34,280
Speaker 1: it's usually something that keeps us from facing the truth.

813
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 1: And I remember being at that, I wrote and untamed.

814
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,360
Speaker 1: I was at my fifth recovery meeting and I finally

815
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 1: and I said, it was the first time I spoke

816
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,320
Speaker 1: at a recovery meeting. And what they don't tell you

817
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 1: about sobriety. Okay, I see what happens is when you're

818
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 1: really bad at it, everyone in your life wants you

819
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: to get sober, desperately, okay, because you're ruining everyone's life, right, Okay,

820
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 1: we ruined everyone's lives. Okay, So everyone wants us to

821
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: get sober sobered, and so by the time we finally

822
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 1: say okay, i'll try, we think it's going to be

823
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: some promised land of joy because everyone has asked us

824
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 1: for so long to get there. But it's terrible, it's awful,

825
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,839
Speaker 1: and horrible and sucks. Okay. Early sobriety hurts so bad.

826
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 1: It's like you've been purposefully frozen forever and now you're

827
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 1: slowly defrosting and everything everything hurts, okay, and then you

828
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: just all day you just think, oh, this is why

829
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 1: I started drinking in the first place. That's all right.

830
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,400
Speaker 1: I didn't work, but I see why I did that.

831
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 1: And so I just was so freaking miserable the first week.

832
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 1: And on the sixth day, I went to my fifth

833
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: meeting and I finally stood up and I said, I

834
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,439
Speaker 1: am Glennan, and I have been sober for six days,

835
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: and I feel awful, and I am afraid that what

836
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: is wrong with me wasn't the booze, that what is

837
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: wrong with me was beneath the booze, that what is

838
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: wrong with me is actually me, rad that that that

839
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: everyone else has some kind of secret of life that

840
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: I don't have, because it feels like life is so

841
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,399
Speaker 1: much harder for me than everyone else. And that's all,

842
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 1: thank you. And this woman came up after after and

843
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: she said, Okay, honey, I just want to tell you

844
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: something that someone else told me in early sobriety, and

845
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 1: that is that if there's any secret to life. The

846
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: secret is that life is just really hard, not because

847
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: you're doing it wrong, but because you're finally doing it right.

848
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 1: What you're doing now is your experience being, you're experiencing

849
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 1: being fully human. That what you're doing is you're feeling

850
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 1: all your feelings. And the thing is that all feelings

851
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:02,439
Speaker 1: are for feeling, all of them, even the hard ones.

852
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: It's just that they hurt, and that's why so few

853
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: people do it. And so what I had learned and

854
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,839
Speaker 1: after that meeting, I thought, Okay, fine, I'm gonna try.

855
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna try to show up for all of it.

856
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to feel all of my feelings and

857
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,399
Speaker 1: see what happens. And what I know. What I learned

858
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 1: is that I thought that feeling my hard feelings to

859
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 1: kill me, which is why I avoided it for so long.

860
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 1: And this magical thing happens when you just stopped numbing,

861
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 1: which is that you realize that none of your hard

862
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: feelings kill you ever. Actually you know all of it.

863
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 1: And what's struck me in my own parallel realizations about

864
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: this in different forms. You know, I didn't I didn't

865
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: have a problem with eating or with Booze. I had

866
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:55,800
Speaker 1: a problem with trying to save people and being in

867
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:59,320
Speaker 1: relationships with men who were very bad for me. And

868
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 1: what I realized about the painful feelings, the things I

869
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 1: didn't think I had a right to feel because my

870
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 1: life was so much better than so many other people.

871
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: It's not perfect, But who am I when there is

872
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 1: this suffering in the world? You Know? What I've realized

873
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 1: is that every time I refused to feel a bad

874
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 1: feeling or a negative feeling or pain, or to say

875
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 1: I think there's something better for me than this, I

876
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: was turning my back on myself. And I would never

877
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: turn my back on you in a hard moment. I

878
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: would never turn my back on a child in a

879
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: hard moment. Why was I turning my back on myself?

880
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 1: And then when I think about the oxygen tank idea,

881
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: I realized I was shoving every single available molecule of

882
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 1: feeling into only the happy feelings, only the good feelings.

883
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 1: And then my good feelings felt like they were going

884
00:54:56,320 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 1: to explode and maybe kill everyone. And and there was

885
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 1: this whole tank for sadness that was empty, but it

886
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 1: wasn't actually empty. The tank was still sitting there. I

887
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 1: was just ignoring it, and and something really magical and yes,

888
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: painful and awful happens when you finally acknowledge all the feelings.

889
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:19,240
Speaker 1: When when your body is full of pins and needles

890
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 1: because you're defrosting, is that you're like, oh, look how

891
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: much bigger my body is. Look how much more space

892
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: I have for all my molecules. Because I'm not just

893
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 1: trying to be on the happy side. It's like it's

894
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 1: like when you get to spread out, and you know

895
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 1: how rare this is because you have a gigantic family,

896
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: When you get to be in your bed alone and

897
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: you can put like a hand and a foot in

898
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: every corner and spread out, like that's what coming home

899
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 1: to all our feelings feels like. To me, you're like

900
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 1: a little lonely in the bed, but you can also

901
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 1: spread out in it, in your own skin and see

902
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:01,760
Speaker 1: what's in there. Well, it's so and and you also,

903
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: I think like what we're both what we both figured out,

904
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,399
Speaker 1: is that number one, we don't have anything figured out,

905
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 1: but which is wonderful. Like I don't trust anybody who

906
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: thinks they haven't figured out. If you're not even wise

907
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:16,359
Speaker 1: enough to know you don't new ship, then I can't

908
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: mess with you. I'm like, no, I know things that

909
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: are true for us, like about what we deserve, and

910
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: I know what the knowing means, and you gave me

911
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 1: the words for that, but I don't know anything else,

912
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 1: like about anything. But here's what I love in a woman. Okay.

913
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: What you just said is what we figure out is

914
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 1: that all of these things we use to numb ourselves

915
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 1: from pain to jump out of pain. Okay, So for food, booze,

916
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: drugs for you, codependent relationships for for other people. There's

917
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 1: a million ones that are just more social okay, like

918
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 1: perfect them or snark or um rage or or um

919
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:12,320
Speaker 1: scroll scroll scrolls scroll, like all of these things we youself,

920
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 1: I don't develop a relationship with myself. And then we wonder, well,

921
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: that is what we do know that we are women

922
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 1: who have stopped abandoning ourselves so trust ourselves, and so

923
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 1: much of that has to do with just sitting through

924
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 1: the pain and not running away, just staying with yourself.

925
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 1: M hmm, right, And what else? We spend the first

926
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 1: half of our lives being convinced by everyone on earth

927
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 1: that we can't trust ourselves, and then we spend a

928
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: while figuring out that we can and then we get

929
00:57:49,880 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 1: to live. Mm hm. So if getting sober for you

930
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 1: was the beginning of coming back to life, was beginning

931
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 1: to put yourself out in the world, was that the

932
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 1: next piece? Was that the next reclamation because Momastery changed

933
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 1: so much for so many people, But that came because

934
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 1: of a Facebook post. Yeah, well it came was the

935
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 1: Facebook was stories ridiculous. I mean, I just couldn't get

936
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 1: to meetings because I was just dripping with children. And

937
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 1: I noticed these people were doing this thing on Facebook

938
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 1: called things. Do you remember that. I was like list,

939
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 1: and so I was like, oh, oh, I could do that.

940
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 1: I could write about myself for list. I could do that,

941
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 1: but I didn't freaking read anybody else's list first, So

942
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 1: I just wrote mine the way I talk, Okay, So like,

943
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 1: so I wrote it out and I left, and I

944
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: came back to my computer hour later, and they were like,

945
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 1: my list had been shared all of these kazillions of

946
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 1: times from my private page, and I had like sixteen

947
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: new emails in my email box, and I had a

948
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:12,439
Speaker 1: bunch of calls in a row from my sister, which

949
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 1: is always a sign that I've done something that is

950
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 1: inappropriate and required a lot of clean up on her part.

951
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 1: So so my number six was I'm a recovering food

952
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: and alcohol addict, but I still find myself missing Booze

953
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 1: in the same twisted way we can miss people who

954
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 1: repeatedly beat us and leave us for dead. It's true

955
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: to me, But my friend Lisa's number six was my

956
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:45,240
Speaker 1: favorite snack food is humis okay that we weren't doing this,

957
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 1: but can I tell you that this is why? This

958
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 1: is why I always knew you were my person. Because

959
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 1: I don't know how to do the Hummus number six.

960
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 1: I only know how to do the Glennon number six.

961
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: And I made a joke recently which was my first

962
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 1: like aha thing. I was with some friends at one

963
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 1: in in one of the environments where I feel the

964
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 1: most insane, which is like events in my industry. I

965
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 1: don't know how to socialize and do the small talk.

966
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 1: So I ran into a friend who was really going

967
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,240
Speaker 1: through something. He was uh not, I'm not my story

968
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 1: to tell, anyway, he was really going through a thing

969
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 1: and there was a little group of us talking and

970
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 1: he was like, yeah, you know, with all this ship

971
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 1: going on in my life, I just don't know how

972
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 1: to talk to anybody here, And I said, well, my

973
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 1: uh tendency is to want to ask a question that

974
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 1: is so probably inappropriate at the Golden globes that then

975
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,160
Speaker 1: I have to swallow my own tongue to keep myself

976
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 1: from doing it. But when people say what's up with you?

977
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: I want to be like, you know, same old, same old.

978
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 1: How are you are you processing your childhood trauma? How

979
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,960
Speaker 1: are things going? Like that's what I want to talk about.

980
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 1: I don't know how to do what what did you

981
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 1: get at the order of table? I don't get it?

982
01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:02,880
Speaker 1: So thank you for a very honest number six. You know.

983
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 1: So I had that feeling of wanting to swell right

984
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: like that golden I was in my kids playroom, like

985
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:14,680
Speaker 1: I just was like, oh my god, what did I do? Um?

986
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 1: And I just remember feeling like, oh my god, how

987
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 1: do I take it back? I called my sister. She's like,

988
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 1: you can't take it back. It's the interwebs, Like, you

989
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 1: can't take it back. So I was just embarrassed and

990
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:29,320
Speaker 1: felt overly vulnerable. But then I started opening these emails, Sophia,

991
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 1: you know, without me telling you what they were. They

992
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 1: were from people who I had known my entire life,

993
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 1: but who I had freaking known because we were so

994
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 1: busy talking about the goddamn hummus and how perfect everything

995
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 1: was and how shiny and wonderful we were, that we

996
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 1: had never brought to each other the heavy stuff that

997
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 1: we are actually meant to help each other carry, right,

998
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 1: And what I learned in those emails they just said

999
01:01:57,240 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 1: you know me too, me too a million different ways

1000
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 1: like of me too. And so I think how you

1001
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 1: get from that to the writing is like there's just

1002
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 1: these moments in your life where you figure out, oh,

1003
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 1: this is something I could do, Like I'm just this

1004
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:17,440
Speaker 1: little pon this one person, but this thing I just

1005
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: did seems to like have helped people, Like first of

1006
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 1: all helped me because I like this, Like I can

1007
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 1: see myself, I can feel myself. I feel healthy when

1008
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,080
Speaker 1: I'm doing this, I feel strong, I feel visible, I

1009
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 1: feel and also it seems to be doing something for

1010
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: other people. So that's like then diagram was like a

1011
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 1: treasure map. It was just like oh, like you know,

1012
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: like the little tinklies went off inside me. I was like,

1013
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 1: this is this could be my thing and what a

1014
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:53,440
Speaker 1: weird thing. Like, so, so what I'm gonna do is.

1015
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say a bunch of crazy ship on

1016
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 1: the interest. That's no. Like, I knew there was an

1017
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 1: art to it, and I knew that truth telling could

1018
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 1: be this incredible key that could unlock people. Not only

1019
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 1: did it help was it a service to people, but

1020
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 1: it helped me feel more human and it helped me

1021
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: find my people, right because I could be at sixty

1022
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 1: four thousand cocktail parties and I will never know who

1023
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: my people are because we're not talking about anything that

1024
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:30,320
Speaker 1: helps you find your people, but like one honest essay

1025
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 1: and your people show up. Mm hmm. So that's how

1026
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 1: I got to the writing thing was just like and

1027
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 1: then so after that Facebook thing I started, I promised

1028
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:44,880
Speaker 1: myself I was going to write every single morning, because

1029
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 1: you know the mornings are, and so I started sending

1030
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 1: a group of friends and email every morning that was

1031
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:56,919
Speaker 1: just my thoughts about the world. Okay, So these poor

1032
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 1: people like I would send pagelong emails each morning, and

1033
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 1: then if they didn't write back to me, I would

1034
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 1: pring that throughout the day and just be like, Hi,

1035
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:11,520
Speaker 1: just wondering if you had any thoughts about my thoughts. Okay. Finally,

1036
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 1: my friend Joanna sent me an email with a link

1037
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 1: to how to start a blog, and she was like, gee,

1038
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: this is what people do. Have as many thoughts and feelings,

1039
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 1: that's as you do, Blessed Joanna. Yeah, so it's a

1040
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 1: family joke. My writing career started because my friends did

1041
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:33,920
Speaker 1: not want to read my ship anymore. Like that is.

1042
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:39,440
Speaker 1: And then my sister, who you know, is my life,

1043
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 1: she decided, after a really hard divorce right about that time,

1044
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: that she was gonna quit her corporate job, moved to

1045
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 1: Rwanda and spend her life prosecuting uh people who committed

1046
01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:58,360
Speaker 1: sex crimes against children. Okay, that's what she was gonna do.

1047
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 1: I and she right before she left, she brought me

1048
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 1: a new laptop. My laptop was like total crap and

1049
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 1: it would turn off every twenty five minutes, so I

1050
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: couldn't write. So she brought me a new laptop and

1051
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 1: this letter that said I'm going to go do this

1052
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 1: thing that I have to do, and you're gonna stay

1053
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:16,480
Speaker 1: here and you're gonna do this thing that you have

1054
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 1: to do, which is you, which is that you were

1055
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 1: made to write. And you're gonna sit down every morning

1056
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 1: and you gonna open this computer and you're gonna write

1057
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 1: with the voice of the person who wrote that Facebook list,

1058
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 1: and I'm telling you, and do for the next year.

1059
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 1: And so I do what my sister tells me to do.

1060
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:39,160
Speaker 1: So that's how I started writing monastery. Mm hmm. And

1061
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 1: then what's the experience, what's the experience of building out

1062
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 1: that community, of realizing that you had created a homing

1063
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,680
Speaker 1: beacon for so many people. It was beautiful, it was wonderful.

1064
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:55,840
Speaker 1: It just I sat down every morning and I wrote,

1065
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 1: and I promised myself. My rule for myself was that

1066
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 1: I would post published every single day after an hour

1067
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 1: and a half, no matter what. And I think that

1068
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 1: that saved me from perfectionism, which is what keeps most

1069
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 1: people from putting their art out in the world. Right.

1070
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 1: I think had I not had that role for myself,

1071
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 1: I would have decided every day that it wasn't good enough,

1072
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 1: and then I'll just fix the next day, and then

1073
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 1: I'll fix it the next day and think. But I

1074
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 1: saved myself from that with that rule. People started coming in,

1075
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 1: you know, And so I never I still to this day,

1076
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 1: would never know. I never promoted my blog anywhere. I

1077
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:33,480
Speaker 1: never had an ad on my blog. I never did

1078
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 1: any any of the things that you're supposed to do,

1079
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 1: and it just kept growing and growing, and then it

1080
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 1: turned into Together Rising, of course, which is really what

1081
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 1: I think. Every word that I write or speak is

1082
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 1: really about Together Rising, which is our nonprofit that is

1083
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 1: run by all women and is just become the leading

1084
01:06:55,480 --> 01:07:03,520
Speaker 1: American organization for reunifying families at the border. For um DO,

1085
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:07,680
Speaker 1: it's still still um serving and dealing with the refugee crisis,

1086
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 1: and more importantly to us just as just first responders

1087
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:14,360
Speaker 1: just every day just meeting the needs of women and

1088
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:18,919
Speaker 1: children and were in crisis. And you know, I think

1089
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:22,680
Speaker 1: so that what I've seen and when I believe is

1090
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 1: that life gives you these little quirks, talents, whatever they are,

1091
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,320
Speaker 1: and then and then you start showing up for your

1092
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:37,280
Speaker 1: talent or your art. But really it's just all to

1093
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 1: get to the big game of service, right. It's like

1094
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:44,680
Speaker 1: it's like the art is just like the stream that

1095
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 1: gets you to the big river. Like anybody who I

1096
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 1: know and love and respect in the world is somebody

1097
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:55,040
Speaker 1: who has thought that they were really like, oh, I'm

1098
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 1: good at this thing, and this is what I'm gonna do.

1099
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:01,480
Speaker 1: But that's not the thing. Like that's the thing that

1100
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 1: gets you to the thing, right. Yeah, it's like that.

1101
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:09,120
Speaker 1: I don't know how to describe it. It's like the

1102
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,680
Speaker 1: art is just the hook. It's just the hook. And

1103
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:14,440
Speaker 1: then you end up at the big game, which is

1104
01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:20,519
Speaker 1: service and activism and and usually first it's philanthropy, right,

1105
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:22,800
Speaker 1: So you just start thinking, Oh, I'm just supposed to

1106
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 1: like save people, supposed to help people. That's what I'm

1107
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:28,680
Speaker 1: supposed to do, right, So that's what happened. We just

1108
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:30,679
Speaker 1: started reading so many stories and people who are suffering,

1109
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 1: and I couldn't put food on the table, couldn't buy diapers,

1110
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:36,479
Speaker 1: couldn't do this and that. So we started matching up people,

1111
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 1: you know, raising money for hurting people. And then over

1112
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:45,519
Speaker 1: a long period of time, we just started asking ourselves

1113
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 1: harder questions like why are these people suffering so much?

1114
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:51,679
Speaker 1: Like why are these people who are working so hard

1115
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:55,800
Speaker 1: having so much trouble making ends meet? Right? Like? What

1116
01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 1: is want? And so that? And right around that time,

1117
01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:02,400
Speaker 1: I read this quote that said you can only pull

1118
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:04,880
Speaker 1: people out of the river for so long until you

1119
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 1: have to look up river and figure out who's pushing

1120
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 1: them in h So that's when I started to look

1121
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:15,879
Speaker 1: deeper and ask the right questions and realize that wherever

1122
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:22,040
Speaker 1: there's great suffering, there is always great profit. Yes, right, so,

1123
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 1: yes there are. We're we are tatherizing like hand or fists,

1124
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:31,439
Speaker 1: trying to help people who have been traumatized by um

1125
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:38,719
Speaker 1: school shootings or by the unbelievably harmful and traumatic drills

1126
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 1: that they're now doing with all kids. All these people

1127
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:45,040
Speaker 1: are suffering. Why, Okay, let's look up river and look

1128
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:46,920
Speaker 1: at the n r A, and let's look at the

1129
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:49,040
Speaker 1: politicians who are paid off by the n r A,

1130
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:52,560
Speaker 1: because that profit is going for this suffering. Okay, we

1131
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:55,840
Speaker 1: can continue to build l g B t Q centers

1132
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:57,679
Speaker 1: all over the country for kids who have been kicked

1133
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:00,400
Speaker 1: out of their house. We can do mentorship, we can do.

1134
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:02,360
Speaker 1: But but what we also have to do is look

1135
01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:06,360
Speaker 1: up river at the religious institutions who are poisoning people

1136
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:10,200
Speaker 1: from creating the shame that is then causing these families

1137
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:13,080
Speaker 1: to kick the kids out. Right, we can. We can

1138
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:15,600
Speaker 1: just over and over again, every problem we have, we

1139
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:19,599
Speaker 1: can look up the river and realize. So so it's

1140
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:22,720
Speaker 1: like art led me to philanthropy, and then philanthropy led

1141
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 1: me to activism. Because anybody is a philanthropist for long

1142
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:31,000
Speaker 1: figures out that you can't you can't stay justin philanthropy

1143
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 1: because we become a cod with power, like, oh, is

1144
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 1: it that the people up river can keep throwing them

1145
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:42,600
Speaker 1: in and profiting because they've got these other people just

1146
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 1: pulling them out all the time their partner. You become

1147
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 1: their partner if you aren't. Also, it's like it has

1148
01:10:50,439 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 1: to be end both. You have to be pulling people

1149
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:54,000
Speaker 1: out of the river and you have to be constantly

1150
01:10:54,040 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 1: looking up river and giving living hell to the people

1151
01:10:55,920 --> 01:11:00,840
Speaker 1: who are pushing them. Yes. Yes, And I think that's

1152
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:05,560
Speaker 1: why when people ask why women like us are so political,

1153
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 1: that's always the question, right, And I like to put

1154
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 1: it in quotes, and then I realized people listening at

1155
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:12,519
Speaker 1: home can't see me doing that. I'm literally air quoting,

1156
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:14,720
Speaker 1: and I'm like when people say, like, well, what do

1157
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 1: you think gives you the right to be political? Because

1158
01:11:17,479 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: everything is politics. We're alive, we're breathing. If if we're

1159
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 1: not active politically for each other, if we're not talking

1160
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:29,519
Speaker 1: about reforming these broken systems, if we're not talking about

1161
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:31,680
Speaker 1: making sure we're electing people who are going to keep

1162
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:35,559
Speaker 1: the air clean, so that kids don't die of asthma.

1163
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:40,479
Speaker 1: There's there could be nothing more important to me. And

1164
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 1: and I think you know, in in in our different ways,

1165
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 1: we took very much the same path. Philanthropy is always

1166
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:50,760
Speaker 1: the window in And if you really care about the

1167
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:53,800
Speaker 1: philanthropic cause that gets you up in the morning, you

1168
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:58,800
Speaker 1: absolutely continue sinking and getting deeper. And then you see

1169
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:03,200
Speaker 1: the systems that play that makes this problem exists in

1170
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:07,679
Speaker 1: the first place. It it feels like a in a way,

1171
01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:10,639
Speaker 1: like a mirroring of of the thing you were discussing earlier,

1172
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:13,760
Speaker 1: that shift from the external to the internal, because really,

1173
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 1: in the personal, the external to the internal is a

1174
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:21,000
Speaker 1: deepening of your knowledge of yourself. And and then when

1175
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:23,200
Speaker 1: I think about it in the macro, the external the

1176
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:27,040
Speaker 1: stuff we get distracted by out here, the shiny surface,

1177
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 1: we can shift to the internal, which is really in

1178
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:33,719
Speaker 1: the macro, I think about the internal being the roots.

1179
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:36,320
Speaker 1: Like if we dig down and we look at the roots,

1180
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:41,600
Speaker 1: it changes everything. And and one of the things I

1181
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:44,840
Speaker 1: love so much is that you've talked about how the

1182
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:49,600
Speaker 1: that shift takes you from this idea of faith to

1183
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 1: a true knowing. Everybody has been, everybody has f It's

1184
01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:59,479
Speaker 1: just what you have faith, then I mean I have

1185
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:04,040
Speaker 1: up having faith that anyone else knows what I should do.

1186
01:13:05,160 --> 01:13:08,760
Speaker 1: I stopped having faith that I have stopped believing that

1187
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:13,439
Speaker 1: I can outsource my faith to a bunch of what

1188
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:16,599
Speaker 1: they went to school for a few years about God.

1189
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:18,200
Speaker 1: Like the fact that you can get a real you

1190
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:20,640
Speaker 1: can get a degree in God is so baffling to me.

1191
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:25,000
Speaker 1: I don't even get me start. But but that's a

1192
01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:30,000
Speaker 1: scary um thing to think about. Because we are human beings.

1193
01:13:30,240 --> 01:13:33,439
Speaker 1: Human beings love, We want to be independent, and then

1194
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:36,640
Speaker 1: we don't. We fiercely want to be independent, and then

1195
01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:38,720
Speaker 1: we fiercely want someone to tell us what to do, right,

1196
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 1: I get really, And so because of that, it is

1197
01:13:42,400 --> 01:13:45,879
Speaker 1: simpler in some ways to outsource our faith to ministers.

1198
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:50,000
Speaker 1: It is simpler in some ways to outsource our political lives,

1199
01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 1: which just means our lives politicians it is. It is

1200
01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 1: simpler to outsource our life decisions to therapists. Right, all

1201
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:02,439
Speaker 1: of these things that we do to put faith in

1202
01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:07,760
Speaker 1: things in forces outside of ourselves instead of to put

1203
01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:11,439
Speaker 1: I no longer believe that there is Like I was

1204
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:14,560
Speaker 1: absolutely believe that that the God we speak of, that

1205
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:20,599
Speaker 1: the higher power that we speak of is inside of ourselves, right.

1206
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:24,840
Speaker 1: I do not think it's somewhere out there, you know,

1207
01:14:25,120 --> 01:14:29,440
Speaker 1: standing away from us, judging us from the outside, organizing

1208
01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:34,960
Speaker 1: us into groups. Thank the deepest, truest parts of ourselves

1209
01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 1: are the divine right. And that is why religion, to me,

1210
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:42,600
Speaker 1: in some of the ways that it's set up, is

1211
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:46,360
Speaker 1: the hardest place to find God. Okay. I think that

1212
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 1: fundamentalist religions are the single hardest place to find God.

1213
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:56,920
Speaker 1: Insomuch as what we find about fundamentalist religions is that

1214
01:14:57,080 --> 01:15:00,680
Speaker 1: the first thing that fundamentalist religions have to do is

1215
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 1: separate you from yourself, teach you that you cannot trust yourself, okay,

1216
01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:08,120
Speaker 1: And it's Christian culture. The way that this is done

1217
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:11,639
Speaker 1: is a pull scripture. I was told from from very young,

1218
01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:15,360
Speaker 1: your heart is wicked. Your heart is wicked. You cannot

1219
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:19,400
Speaker 1: trust yourself, You cannot lean on your own understanding everything was.

1220
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:23,840
Speaker 1: You cannot trust yourself. Okay. So the reason why we

1221
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:26,200
Speaker 1: train people not to trust themselves is so we will

1222
01:15:26,240 --> 01:15:30,320
Speaker 1: trust them instead. And the scary part of religion is

1223
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:35,240
Speaker 1: that they say to you, trust God, don't trust yourself,

1224
01:15:35,280 --> 01:15:37,880
Speaker 1: trust God. But what they're really saying is don't trust yourself,

1225
01:15:37,920 --> 01:15:47,519
Speaker 1: trust us, trust our system exactly. Nothing to do with God, nothing, nothing.

1226
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:51,599
Speaker 1: The difference between religion and God is just night and day.

1227
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:58,080
Speaker 1: So so what I would say is I am forever

1228
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:03,040
Speaker 1: suspicious and wary of any institution or group of people

1229
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:06,680
Speaker 1: or person who tries to separate me from myself. I

1230
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:12,800
Speaker 1: will never abandoned myself again. Right. I will abandon every institute,

1231
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:18,480
Speaker 1: I will abandon every relationship. I will abandon every expectation

1232
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 1: that required but that requires me to abandon myself. M

1233
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:25,840
Speaker 1: so and I and I find that so amazing, Like

1234
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:28,400
Speaker 1: so I think it, like talk to my kids about

1235
01:16:28,400 --> 01:16:31,479
Speaker 1: this recently. How strange is it that the first right

1236
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:33,639
Speaker 1: of passage we have for human beings is to give

1237
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:37,880
Speaker 1: themselves away to other people, Like I vow that I

1238
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:41,160
Speaker 1: will never abandon you to another human being, Like I

1239
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:45,120
Speaker 1: feel like you want to create some kind of right

1240
01:16:45,160 --> 01:16:48,720
Speaker 1: of past for my sixteen year olds that is just

1241
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:53,760
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, First, you will never abandon yourself, right,

1242
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:56,880
Speaker 1: and you will never choose anything else that requires you

1243
01:16:56,960 --> 01:16:59,879
Speaker 1: to abandon yourself, because that will be proof in itself

1244
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:03,360
Speaker 1: that that's a bad decision. Mm hmm. But it's like

1245
01:17:03,439 --> 01:17:05,360
Speaker 1: we have to have before we say I love you,

1246
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:07,800
Speaker 1: before I say I give myself to you, don't we

1247
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:10,880
Speaker 1: have to know who the I is mm hmm. The

1248
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:16,320
Speaker 1: coolest wedding I've ever been to two of my dearest girlfriends,

1249
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:20,320
Speaker 1: my girlfriend Emily and her wife Michelle. When they got married,

1250
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:25,880
Speaker 1: they designed their ceremony to talk about each of them

1251
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:29,720
Speaker 1: as individuals and then their relationship as a unit, and

1252
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:33,960
Speaker 1: they delivered wedding vows to the eye, the you and

1253
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:42,960
Speaker 1: the we, so good, so good, because they wanted to commit.

1254
01:17:43,920 --> 01:17:46,439
Speaker 1: Michelle wanted to commit to Emily as she is, Emily

1255
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:50,280
Speaker 1: wanted to commit to Michelle as she is. Emily committed

1256
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:54,680
Speaker 1: to Emily, Michelle committed to Michelle, and then they committed

1257
01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:59,599
Speaker 1: to the unit, to the third thing that is them together,

1258
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:04,880
Speaker 1: the third thing. It's a third it's a third thing.

1259
01:18:05,720 --> 01:18:08,559
Speaker 1: And then the wild thing is is that you can't

1260
01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:10,800
Speaker 1: even commit to that third thing. So because you have

1261
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:14,880
Speaker 1: to commit to everything, that third thing will become, never

1262
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:16,760
Speaker 1: be the same, it will always be the it will

1263
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:19,960
Speaker 1: always change. Like Abbie says to me all the time,

1264
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:21,680
Speaker 1: which I think is the most beautiful thing. I love

1265
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:24,360
Speaker 1: you and I already love every woman you will become

1266
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:29,800
Speaker 1: because it's like what we fall in love with these

1267
01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:34,479
Speaker 1: ideas of people, but people nature are supposed to evolve

1268
01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:38,599
Speaker 1: and change over and over again. Have these relationships where

1269
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:41,320
Speaker 1: people are holding each other back because they want the

1270
01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:44,840
Speaker 1: person to be the same, right, so we have to

1271
01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:46,599
Speaker 1: It's like when we fall in love with other people.

1272
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:48,120
Speaker 1: We can't even fall in love with other people. We

1273
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:50,800
Speaker 1: have to fall in love with that person's process, and

1274
01:18:52,280 --> 01:18:56,400
Speaker 1: and we have to commit to upholding their process rather

1275
01:18:56,560 --> 01:18:59,479
Speaker 1: than to your point clean to who they are today

1276
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:12,639
Speaker 1: or who they or yesterday. It's not hard for people

1277
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:17,320
Speaker 1: to see the journey from Momastery to your first book

1278
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:20,760
Speaker 1: and to your second book, and and and to learn

1279
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:24,960
Speaker 1: about what your journey was with Craig, and I'm I'm

1280
01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:28,719
Speaker 1: so amazed by the way the two of you loved

1281
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:33,120
Speaker 1: each other almost more in the taking a part of

1282
01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:35,120
Speaker 1: your marriage than you've even loved each other in it,

1283
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:37,439
Speaker 1: so that you could build a better family, because the

1284
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:41,479
Speaker 1: family is the point. But I I want to talk

1285
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:46,679
Speaker 1: about Abby. I want to talk about you meeting Abby.

1286
01:19:46,760 --> 01:19:49,400
Speaker 1: I want to talk about how you couldn't have written

1287
01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:55,320
Speaker 1: Untamed without Abby, and what Abby helped you unlocking yourself

1288
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:59,479
Speaker 1: because it's you with Abby, and now I feel like

1289
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:02,200
Speaker 1: I can tell the people of the secret. So the

1290
01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:04,719
Speaker 1: night we met and we were pretzeld on the couch

1291
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:11,040
Speaker 1: barefoot together. I had been speaking to Abby because she

1292
01:20:11,240 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 1: and I had met a few months before. Again as

1293
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:17,320
Speaker 1: as to you know people out there on the on

1294
01:20:17,439 --> 01:20:21,200
Speaker 1: the activism front, and I am an unabashed as much

1295
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:23,280
Speaker 1: as I don't understand a lot of sports, I am

1296
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:29,240
Speaker 1: a mental soccer fan. Like I I become I become

1297
01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:32,320
Speaker 1: one of those people, like when you do the videos

1298
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:34,960
Speaker 1: in your house during the tournaments and everyone is screaming.

1299
01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:37,560
Speaker 1: I become that person. It's like I it's like I

1300
01:20:38,080 --> 01:20:40,080
Speaker 1: become the Hulk, or like when a great white shark

1301
01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:42,679
Speaker 1: when it's little eyes get covered right before it attacks something.

1302
01:20:43,240 --> 01:20:46,200
Speaker 1: I some other part of me comes out and I

1303
01:20:46,439 --> 01:20:52,200
Speaker 1: turned into a crazy person. It's just women's soccer, or

1304
01:20:52,280 --> 01:20:55,760
Speaker 1: is it men's soccer? No? Like I I well, no,

1305
01:20:55,960 --> 01:20:58,040
Speaker 1: I'm a crazy person for women's soccer. I really like

1306
01:20:58,240 --> 01:21:01,799
Speaker 1: men's soccer. Like I've I've tried old to see men's

1307
01:21:02,080 --> 01:21:05,920
Speaker 1: soccer games in places. Yeah, I'm like, I'm really I'm

1308
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:10,679
Speaker 1: a fan. I'm a soccer person. I played a ys

1309
01:21:10,720 --> 01:21:13,000
Speaker 1: O soccer when I was a little. Um, I'll send

1310
01:21:13,040 --> 01:21:15,640
Speaker 1: you a photo of me and my little uniform, but

1311
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:20,200
Speaker 1: I I just love it. And and Abby had just

1312
01:21:20,360 --> 01:21:22,960
Speaker 1: led the women's national team to win the World Cup

1313
01:21:23,080 --> 01:21:28,200
Speaker 1: and and was doing so as such a heart forward

1314
01:21:29,040 --> 01:21:33,880
Speaker 1: activists while leading a team and proving, as women often do,

1315
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:37,600
Speaker 1: that they can literally do seventeen things and spin a

1316
01:21:37,640 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 1: plate on their head at once and look elegant doing it.

1317
01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:44,240
Speaker 1: And and so we all we all got to meet

1318
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:47,080
Speaker 1: at this event, and I was like, there's the team.

1319
01:21:47,640 --> 01:21:50,400
Speaker 1: What am I going to say? Oh my god? And

1320
01:21:50,520 --> 01:21:52,560
Speaker 1: then before I know it, ADDIE's walking up to me

1321
01:21:52,720 --> 01:21:54,840
Speaker 1: and I'm like, there, who is what is she doing?

1322
01:21:54,960 --> 01:21:57,519
Speaker 1: What's who is she coming me? She's coming, She's coming

1323
01:21:57,560 --> 01:22:00,519
Speaker 1: to me. And she walks up and goes all these

1324
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 1: girls over here are too scared to talk to you.

1325
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:04,360
Speaker 1: They're all huge one tree Hill fans. We think you're

1326
01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:06,880
Speaker 1: a badass, and also we know you're a soccer fan.

1327
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:08,560
Speaker 1: Come over here and have a drink with us. And

1328
01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:13,640
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, Abby, And that's how Abby and

1329
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:17,519
Speaker 1: I became friends. And so we had stayed in touch

1330
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:20,519
Speaker 1: for a while and talked about the deep things and

1331
01:22:21,320 --> 01:22:25,000
Speaker 1: and she was going through all these amazing transitions again

1332
01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:28,640
Speaker 1: heart forward, and then she calls me and says, hey,

1333
01:22:28,720 --> 01:22:31,920
Speaker 1: you're going to do this together to her with my

1334
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:34,160
Speaker 1: girl Glennon, and I was like, oh god, Abby, I

1335
01:22:34,280 --> 01:22:36,240
Speaker 1: just love her. I think she's so cool. We're going

1336
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:38,400
Speaker 1: to be in conversation tonight. It's like a fireside and

1337
01:22:38,439 --> 01:22:40,760
Speaker 1: I can't wait. I just like, I feel like she's

1338
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:43,160
Speaker 1: my people. And she goes, yeah, no she is, I mean,

1339
01:22:43,240 --> 01:22:45,360
Speaker 1: and and you know she's my girl. And I was like, no,

1340
01:22:45,479 --> 01:22:47,880
Speaker 1: I know. I've been like she's gonna also she's gonna

1341
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:49,840
Speaker 1: be my girl too, Like I just know right like

1342
01:22:49,960 --> 01:22:52,439
Speaker 1: she's our people. And Abby goes no, no, no, no,

1343
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:56,720
Speaker 1: you're missing it. So if she's my girl, and I

1344
01:22:56,800 --> 01:23:02,360
Speaker 1: went why it? And I was like, oh my god,

1345
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:04,960
Speaker 1: who knows? And she was like nobody knows, and I

1346
01:23:05,040 --> 01:23:07,360
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god. So when we were in

1347
01:23:07,439 --> 01:23:10,479
Speaker 1: the little in the backstage area that night, I even

1348
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:12,920
Speaker 1: waited until the people who were around us were out

1349
01:23:12,960 --> 01:23:15,120
Speaker 1: of your shot, and I was like, Glenden, I know

1350
01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:17,840
Speaker 1: that Abby loves you, and then you love Appy and

1351
01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:19,960
Speaker 1: I'm so happy and you were like, oh my god,

1352
01:23:20,040 --> 01:23:22,120
Speaker 1: I'm so happy that I can talk about this with

1353
01:23:22,280 --> 01:23:34,360
Speaker 1: someone like the magic of of knowing that you both

1354
01:23:34,439 --> 01:23:38,600
Speaker 1: had been like just hit by the lightning bolt of

1355
01:23:38,720 --> 01:23:43,560
Speaker 1: this love that you still that still maintains this electricity

1356
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:48,880
Speaker 1: between you two, tell us everything about it. Because you

1357
01:23:49,080 --> 01:23:54,000
Speaker 1: had a big you had a lot of stuff that

1358
01:23:54,160 --> 01:23:57,639
Speaker 1: you had to kind of cast aside to live your biggest,

1359
01:23:57,720 --> 01:24:02,200
Speaker 1: truest life and your and your biggest rout love. So

1360
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:07,200
Speaker 1: what what do you do? I mean, I almost didn't

1361
01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:13,400
Speaker 1: do it. I almost just I had finally, So so

1362
01:24:13,560 --> 01:24:17,200
Speaker 1: we met at a at the first event for Love Warrior,

1363
01:24:17,360 --> 01:24:24,040
Speaker 1: which was problematic. So because I was launching Love Warrior,

1364
01:24:24,160 --> 01:24:27,320
Speaker 1: which was being touted all over the place. It was

1365
01:24:27,360 --> 01:24:28,800
Speaker 1: an open book Club pick. It was supposed to be

1366
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:31,080
Speaker 1: like the biggest book of the year, and it was

1367
01:24:31,200 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 1: the tagline was and the epic marriage redemption story. Okay,

1368
01:24:35,040 --> 01:24:37,040
Speaker 1: see this is literally the book about how Craig and

1369
01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:39,400
Speaker 1: I saved our marriage. And then I go to the

1370
01:24:39,439 --> 01:24:43,639
Speaker 1: first event and me, baby, can I ask you something though?

1371
01:24:44,080 --> 01:24:46,519
Speaker 1: Did that feel fair that people were calling it that?

1372
01:24:47,240 --> 01:24:50,880
Speaker 1: Because yes, your book was a redemption story about two

1373
01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:54,559
Speaker 1: people choosing to love each other, But I never read

1374
01:24:54,640 --> 01:24:57,360
Speaker 1: it as a story of you choosing to stay. I

1375
01:24:57,560 --> 01:24:59,360
Speaker 1: I read it as a story of you choosing to

1376
01:24:59,439 --> 01:25:01,880
Speaker 1: do the work to find out why it broke in

1377
01:25:01,920 --> 01:25:04,679
Speaker 1: the first place. And thank god we didn't do the work,

1378
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:07,280
Speaker 1: because you know, I thought we were doing all of

1379
01:25:07,400 --> 01:25:11,920
Speaker 1: that work to have our happily ever after, But we

1380
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:14,200
Speaker 1: were doing all of that work so that we could

1381
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:18,040
Speaker 1: leave our marriage with respect and trust for each other

1382
01:25:19,439 --> 01:25:22,360
Speaker 1: and spend the rest of our lives co parenting together.

1383
01:25:23,760 --> 01:25:28,800
Speaker 1: So I yes, fell madly in love with Abby in immediately,

1384
01:25:29,280 --> 01:25:32,719
Speaker 1: like upon first sight, which I can't even say still

1385
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:38,400
Speaker 1: without gagging because he's so upset that for the rest

1386
01:25:38,479 --> 01:25:40,200
Speaker 1: of my life I have to tell that truth because

1387
01:25:40,240 --> 01:25:44,000
Speaker 1: it sounds so cheesy. And I just I am never

1388
01:25:44,080 --> 01:25:46,040
Speaker 1: a person who believed in any kind of romantic love

1389
01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:48,000
Speaker 1: in my life, like I used to say, so, I'm

1390
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:52,479
Speaker 1: just it was my family's like thing. I'm just I'm

1391
01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:54,960
Speaker 1: more like you know, some people are like lasers and

1392
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:57,120
Speaker 1: they love one person with their love, but I more

1393
01:25:57,160 --> 01:26:00,560
Speaker 1: like a floodlight, Like I just love I ever have

1394
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:04,560
Speaker 1: that I think you look before never, which now I

1395
01:26:04,720 --> 01:26:07,000
Speaker 1: kind of have some more clues as to why. But

1396
01:26:07,720 --> 01:26:14,840
Speaker 1: I but I badly in love with her immediately and

1397
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:17,840
Speaker 1: we were in the same room for a couple of

1398
01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:20,720
Speaker 1: hours with a bunch of other writers at this big

1399
01:26:21,000 --> 01:26:23,439
Speaker 1: librarians can mention where we were speaking to a thousand

1400
01:26:23,960 --> 01:26:27,040
Speaker 1: librarians on this day as together. We both had this

1401
01:26:27,200 --> 01:26:30,840
Speaker 1: like ridiculously magical moment, and then we both lost our minds.

1402
01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:34,080
Speaker 1: So like she stood up to speak, do her part,

1403
01:26:34,160 --> 01:26:35,920
Speaker 1: and she talked for like three minutes, sin sat down.

1404
01:26:36,120 --> 01:26:39,200
Speaker 1: I forgot her whole speech. Then I stood up to speak,

1405
01:26:39,439 --> 01:26:44,040
Speaker 1: and then I didn't. I completely disregarded my speech and

1406
01:26:44,160 --> 01:26:45,920
Speaker 1: just said a bunch of things that I thought would

1407
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:47,960
Speaker 1: make her think I was cool, Like let was in

1408
01:26:48,040 --> 01:26:50,320
Speaker 1: front of a thousand libraries. That's what I did, Okay.

1409
01:26:51,080 --> 01:26:55,320
Speaker 1: So so then we went our separate ways, and as

1410
01:26:55,400 --> 01:26:57,599
Speaker 1: you know, she went back to Portland, I went back

1411
01:26:57,600 --> 01:27:00,880
Speaker 1: to Florida. We started writing each other, Leonard. We fell

1412
01:27:01,040 --> 01:27:03,920
Speaker 1: deeply and deeply in love through letters to each other.

1413
01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:09,280
Speaker 1: She actually gave them to me like all bound up.

1414
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:14,640
Speaker 1: Later it was like a stack like this, But we

1415
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:17,679
Speaker 1: never saw each other again. I dismantled my entire life

1416
01:27:18,680 --> 01:27:21,680
Speaker 1: and she dismantled her entire life. Before we had ever

1417
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:26,080
Speaker 1: been alone in the room together or ever touched each other. Um.

1418
01:27:26,280 --> 01:27:29,360
Speaker 1: And I think that's because it was an insanely romantic,

1419
01:27:29,920 --> 01:27:32,920
Speaker 1: magical thing. But I think it's also because I understood

1420
01:27:33,080 --> 01:27:37,400
Speaker 1: very clearly that I was at a huge turning point

1421
01:27:37,439 --> 01:27:40,880
Speaker 1: in my life. That this wasn't really about will I

1422
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:42,880
Speaker 1: stay with Craig or go with Abby. It wasn't that

1423
01:27:43,120 --> 01:27:47,080
Speaker 1: it was like, will I abandoned myself again? Like I

1424
01:27:47,240 --> 01:27:51,880
Speaker 1: have myself rise up? Like I have I felt my

1425
01:27:52,040 --> 01:27:54,360
Speaker 1: true self, like the girl I was before the world

1426
01:27:54,439 --> 01:27:56,960
Speaker 1: told me who to be. I have felt her just

1427
01:27:57,080 --> 01:27:59,240
Speaker 1: like rise up inside me and rattle the bars of

1428
01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:03,000
Speaker 1: my cage. And will I allow myself to be free?

1429
01:28:03,600 --> 01:28:06,960
Speaker 1: Mm hmm? Will I do? And And so it felt

1430
01:28:07,080 --> 01:28:08,960
Speaker 1: very much like a life or death situation, and I

1431
01:28:09,160 --> 01:28:14,439
Speaker 1: think it was and a spirit you know, a soul

1432
01:28:14,680 --> 01:28:19,040
Speaker 1: life or death situation. And and you know that, you know,

1433
01:28:19,280 --> 01:28:24,439
Speaker 1: I almost didn't do it, so because I had so

1434
01:28:24,640 --> 01:28:30,000
Speaker 1: many tamed ideas about motherhood, you know, as you know,

1435
01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:34,040
Speaker 1: imagine being me and looking at Tish and thinking, oh God,

1436
01:28:34,520 --> 01:28:36,599
Speaker 1: like this child cries for eight hours if I can't

1437
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:38,560
Speaker 1: tie her shoes fast enough, like so I'm going to

1438
01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:43,560
Speaker 1: break up the family like Christ and I just had this,

1439
01:28:44,400 --> 01:28:45,960
Speaker 1: you know, I just thought, a good mom doesn't hurt

1440
01:28:45,960 --> 01:28:50,080
Speaker 1: her children, A good mom doesn't hurt your children. And

1441
01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:52,479
Speaker 1: then one day I was bringing Tish's hair and I

1442
01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:56,200
Speaker 1: looked at her and I thought, Okay, I am staying

1443
01:28:56,360 --> 01:28:59,560
Speaker 1: in this marriage for her, But what I want this

1444
01:28:59,800 --> 01:29:03,960
Speaker 1: man rich for her? If I wouldn't want this marriage

1445
01:29:04,040 --> 01:29:07,439
Speaker 1: for her, then why am I modeling bad love and

1446
01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:12,599
Speaker 1: calling that good mothering? Mm hmm. And the answer is simple.

1447
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 1: It's because somewhere along the line, I swallowed the idea

1448
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:20,560
Speaker 1: that a good mother is some arter m hm. And

1449
01:29:20,720 --> 01:29:25,800
Speaker 1: a mother earns her mothering nous proves her love by

1450
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:31,200
Speaker 1: burying herself, by burying her needs, her ambition, her dream fire,

1451
01:29:32,000 --> 01:29:35,840
Speaker 1: in honor of her children, by being oh so selfless

1452
01:29:36,640 --> 01:29:41,519
Speaker 1: for the others, as if our needs are mutually exclusive.

1453
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:45,160
Speaker 1: See that posen route. That that is a poison pill

1454
01:29:45,280 --> 01:29:48,560
Speaker 1: that culture gives women. You can go for what is

1455
01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:50,680
Speaker 1: good for you, because what is good for you will

1456
01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:54,400
Speaker 1: necessarily be bad for your children and your people, which

1457
01:29:54,520 --> 01:29:58,360
Speaker 1: is that's horseship. Like what is good for you will

1458
01:29:58,520 --> 01:30:02,000
Speaker 1: always inevitably be what is good and true for your people.

1459
01:30:02,080 --> 01:30:05,040
Speaker 1: Because there's no such thing as one way liberation, right

1460
01:30:05,479 --> 01:30:09,480
Speaker 1: generate ourselves. When we live true to ourselves, that automatically

1461
01:30:09,520 --> 01:30:12,080
Speaker 1: grants permission to everyone in our circle to live true

1462
01:30:12,120 --> 01:30:17,800
Speaker 1: to themselves. So that is really I mean, that was

1463
01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:21,880
Speaker 1: one of the clearest moments I had of my really

1464
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:25,080
Speaker 1: how tamed I was, because I am a woman who

1465
01:30:25,200 --> 01:30:28,920
Speaker 1: is smarter than that. Like I know that love is

1466
01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:33,720
Speaker 1: not about slowly dying, right, I know of is not

1467
01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:37,000
Speaker 1: about disappearing, but about emerging. I know that I would

1468
01:30:37,000 --> 01:30:39,479
Speaker 1: never want my daughter to slowly die inside of the marriage,

1469
01:30:39,520 --> 01:30:41,679
Speaker 1: and yet I was doing it in honor of my daughter,

1470
01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:45,720
Speaker 1: which means that I had been brainwashed. It is very

1471
01:30:45,840 --> 01:30:48,080
Speaker 1: clear that a good mother is not a martyr. Right.

1472
01:30:48,120 --> 01:30:50,600
Speaker 1: That is a terrible burden and a terrible legacy to

1473
01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:56,920
Speaker 1: leave for your children. Right. That is a children of

1474
01:30:57,120 --> 01:30:59,880
Speaker 1: martyr mothers grow up thinking that they have to be martyrs.

1475
01:31:00,120 --> 01:31:02,200
Speaker 1: So and they also grew up knowing that they were

1476
01:31:02,240 --> 01:31:05,120
Speaker 1: the reason their mom stopped living. They all stop knowing

1477
01:31:05,200 --> 01:31:09,720
Speaker 1: that they never knew their mother because buried beneath all

1478
01:31:09,800 --> 01:31:12,840
Speaker 1: of those expectations and shids and shis right. That is

1479
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:16,000
Speaker 1: why Carl Young said that the greatest burden of child

1480
01:31:16,080 --> 01:31:19,880
Speaker 1: can bear is the unlived life of a parent. Right.

1481
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:22,880
Speaker 1: So that's just one version of these roots, these beliefs

1482
01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:25,519
Speaker 1: we have to rip out from under us. Like a

1483
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:28,240
Speaker 1: good mother is not a martyr, right, A good mother

1484
01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:31,599
Speaker 1: is a model. Right. A good mother mother who knows

1485
01:31:31,720 --> 01:31:34,880
Speaker 1: that her children will only allow themselves to live as

1486
01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:39,800
Speaker 1: fully as she allows herself to live. So she must

1487
01:31:39,960 --> 01:31:44,080
Speaker 1: not settle for any relationship or life, or community or

1488
01:31:44,160 --> 01:31:46,120
Speaker 1: nation that is less beautiful than the one she want

1489
01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:49,640
Speaker 1: for her child. So when you know it's amazing you

1490
01:31:49,720 --> 01:31:52,400
Speaker 1: did this in spite of your children, Fuck that, No,

1491
01:31:52,760 --> 01:31:55,880
Speaker 1: I did this because of my children, But you did

1492
01:31:55,960 --> 01:31:58,760
Speaker 1: it because of them, because you were willing to look

1493
01:31:58,840 --> 01:32:02,840
Speaker 1: deeper than what are trained to do. Because to your point, women,

1494
01:32:03,160 --> 01:32:05,640
Speaker 1: we as women see our mothers be martyrs. And then

1495
01:32:05,720 --> 01:32:09,960
Speaker 1: we have this unconscious or subconscious understanding that we are

1496
01:32:10,040 --> 01:32:12,720
Speaker 1: slowly marching towards the death of self because once we

1497
01:32:12,800 --> 01:32:14,519
Speaker 1: have a kid, we're going to have to do it too.

1498
01:32:15,400 --> 01:32:18,240
Speaker 1: And and we don't even know that that's what it is,

1499
01:32:18,360 --> 01:32:20,840
Speaker 1: because everyone gives us the fairy tale, which says, once

1500
01:32:20,920 --> 01:32:23,240
Speaker 1: you have your partner and your baby, you're just going

1501
01:32:23,280 --> 01:32:25,599
Speaker 1: to feel whole and happy every single second of every

1502
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:29,120
Speaker 1: single day. So we're told to opposing things and we

1503
01:32:29,200 --> 01:32:31,120
Speaker 1: don't know what's true, so we kind of ignore it,

1504
01:32:31,200 --> 01:32:34,760
Speaker 1: and we blindly stumble towards the future, which is either

1505
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:40,240
Speaker 1: scary or perfect, but both feel wrong. And then it perpetuates,

1506
01:32:40,560 --> 01:32:45,320
Speaker 1: and you said, stop, look underneath, go to the route. Oh,

1507
01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:49,479
Speaker 1: I'm afraid to cause pain that might feel in the

1508
01:32:49,680 --> 01:32:52,960
Speaker 1: in the present, in the moment, catastrophic to my child.

1509
01:32:53,400 --> 01:32:57,280
Speaker 1: So I'm sentencing her to a lifetime of pain that

1510
01:32:57,760 --> 01:33:00,880
Speaker 1: exists on a scale from potentially dull and consistent to

1511
01:33:01,439 --> 01:33:04,719
Speaker 1: catastrophic every single day. Well, that certainly doesn't make sense.

1512
01:33:05,120 --> 01:33:07,920
Speaker 1: Let's do the momentary so we can change the future.

1513
01:33:09,040 --> 01:33:13,320
Speaker 1: That's it. But it's that it's that pause, right, it's

1514
01:33:13,360 --> 01:33:18,559
Speaker 1: that sailah. It's that like it's the difference between living

1515
01:33:18,600 --> 01:33:22,240
Speaker 1: and unexamined or an examined life. Right, we choose to

1516
01:33:22,320 --> 01:33:25,040
Speaker 1: live unexamined lives. We will chase dirty paint funnies for

1517
01:33:25,080 --> 01:33:28,280
Speaker 1: the rest of our lives and wonder why we feel

1518
01:33:28,280 --> 01:33:30,680
Speaker 1: like we're slowly dying, and we will take train a

1519
01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:35,240
Speaker 1: natural to do the same thing. I think it comes

1520
01:33:35,320 --> 01:33:37,559
Speaker 1: down to that thing I love that witman said, which

1521
01:33:37,640 --> 01:33:40,839
Speaker 1: is just like our our duty is to re examine

1522
01:33:40,920 --> 01:33:44,479
Speaker 1: every single thing we've been taught in school, in a church,

1523
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:50,080
Speaker 1: in a book, dismiss whatever insults our souls. Right, it

1524
01:33:50,200 --> 01:33:57,559
Speaker 1: invults my soul. The idea that love, that the woman's

1525
01:33:58,360 --> 01:34:02,320
Speaker 1: form of love is to disappear in any way, right,

1526
01:34:02,920 --> 01:34:08,480
Speaker 1: insults myself. And so and so, Yeah, I just decided

1527
01:34:09,320 --> 01:34:12,639
Speaker 1: that the way that I can mother my children well

1528
01:34:13,040 --> 01:34:16,559
Speaker 1: is to live the truest, freest, most beautiful, most whole

1529
01:34:16,640 --> 01:34:20,599
Speaker 1: life that I can possibly imagine, and just fully expect

1530
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:24,439
Speaker 1: them to do the same. And that's getting untamed. Thanks,

1531
01:34:24,479 --> 01:34:27,519
Speaker 1: So yeah, because I do. When we passed down these

1532
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:31,080
Speaker 1: ideas of martyrdoms, were just taming our girls and our boys.

1533
01:34:31,160 --> 01:34:34,360
Speaker 1: We're taming them, you know, That's what I was doing.

1534
01:34:35,320 --> 01:34:39,960
Speaker 1: Our kids know, like they know when we're in loving

1535
01:34:40,040 --> 01:34:44,160
Speaker 1: relationships or not. And so when we when we make

1536
01:34:44,200 --> 01:34:47,240
Speaker 1: when we stay in a relationship that is not healthy

1537
01:34:47,520 --> 01:34:50,080
Speaker 1: and that is broken, we are teaching our children what

1538
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:55,559
Speaker 1: love is. Right. So you talk in the book about

1539
01:34:56,439 --> 01:34:59,680
Speaker 1: how so many of us have been so controlled for

1540
01:34:59,760 --> 01:35:02,880
Speaker 1: so along, and that what the world really needs is

1541
01:35:03,000 --> 01:35:05,879
Speaker 1: more and more women who are completely out of control.

1542
01:35:06,880 --> 01:35:09,560
Speaker 1: And I think about this time that we find ourselves

1543
01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:13,639
Speaker 1: in the world is out of control, and we're also

1544
01:35:14,120 --> 01:35:17,120
Speaker 1: so many of us stuck at home with ourselves. This

1545
01:35:17,280 --> 01:35:20,599
Speaker 1: could be an opportunity for that Seilah that you reference

1546
01:35:20,720 --> 01:35:25,800
Speaker 1: that pause to let it sink and settle. Can you

1547
01:35:25,880 --> 01:35:28,560
Speaker 1: explain what you mean by out of control women? And

1548
01:35:29,080 --> 01:35:33,080
Speaker 1: and can you, maybe as an expert at this offer

1549
01:35:33,400 --> 01:35:39,679
Speaker 1: to listeners a couple of nudges towards how to get

1550
01:35:40,160 --> 01:35:45,240
Speaker 1: reflective with self control. I think most of my pain

1551
01:35:45,520 --> 01:35:48,439
Speaker 1: in my life has been trying to control things. Like

1552
01:35:48,800 --> 01:35:52,799
Speaker 1: I realized this when I fell in love with Abby.

1553
01:35:53,400 --> 01:35:56,599
Speaker 1: And I didn't realize that I was such a controlling

1554
01:35:56,680 --> 01:35:59,880
Speaker 1: person before I knew Abbe because I just I all

1555
01:36:00,040 --> 01:36:04,680
Speaker 1: is knew that I was like the leader ding ding

1556
01:36:04,760 --> 01:36:10,679
Speaker 1: ding ding ding how everything always. But I just thought

1557
01:36:10,760 --> 01:36:13,439
Speaker 1: that I had really good ideas, you know, and that

1558
01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:15,560
Speaker 1: I cared about my people so much, and so I

1559
01:36:15,760 --> 01:36:22,400
Speaker 1: thought that my duty was to lead and guide them right,

1560
01:36:23,280 --> 01:36:25,280
Speaker 1: and that just always seemed to kind of work for me.

1561
01:36:26,000 --> 01:36:27,880
Speaker 1: Um while, I mean, I got divorced so clearly what

1562
01:36:27,960 --> 01:36:33,799
Speaker 1: I wasn't working. But but then when I'm married Abby,

1563
01:36:34,360 --> 01:36:37,240
Speaker 1: it so Abby is really good at communicating things to

1564
01:36:37,320 --> 01:36:40,439
Speaker 1: me very clearly and kindly. And one day I was

1565
01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:41,920
Speaker 1: doing the thing that I do where I was like

1566
01:36:42,040 --> 01:36:46,120
Speaker 1: manipulating the situation behind the scenes that I think people

1567
01:36:46,160 --> 01:36:48,280
Speaker 1: don't know what I'm doing when I'm controlling them, you know.

1568
01:36:49,200 --> 01:36:51,439
Speaker 1: And she stopped me and she said, Honey, I need

1569
01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:53,880
Speaker 1: you to know that I see what you're doing. I

1570
01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:56,040
Speaker 1: see that you're trying to control me. And what I

1571
01:36:56,200 --> 01:36:57,839
Speaker 1: need you to know is that that hurts my feelings

1572
01:36:57,880 --> 01:37:00,599
Speaker 1: so much because it makes me feel like you don't

1573
01:37:00,600 --> 01:37:05,160
Speaker 1: trust me, and I trust you so much. I trust

1574
01:37:05,240 --> 01:37:07,040
Speaker 1: you so much, and I just want you to trust

1575
01:37:07,160 --> 01:37:14,519
Speaker 1: me um and believe in me. And that's when I realized, oh, okay,

1576
01:37:15,400 --> 01:37:18,920
Speaker 1: so I have been trying to love people by controlling them,

1577
01:37:19,960 --> 01:37:24,640
Speaker 1: when in fact, love is the opposite of control, like

1578
01:37:25,600 --> 01:37:29,599
Speaker 1: control people or we can love people, but we can't

1579
01:37:29,600 --> 01:37:33,800
Speaker 1: do both because love requires trust, right, and we only

1580
01:37:33,920 --> 01:37:37,719
Speaker 1: control things that we don't trust. So what we're getting

1581
01:37:37,760 --> 01:37:41,280
Speaker 1: at to the with that is it took me to

1582
01:37:41,360 --> 01:37:44,840
Speaker 1: see love and control as opposites in my relationships for

1583
01:37:44,960 --> 01:37:47,000
Speaker 1: me to be able to see love and control as

1584
01:37:47,040 --> 01:37:51,479
Speaker 1: opposites for myself. Okay, the amount of things that women

1585
01:37:51,560 --> 01:37:56,320
Speaker 1: try to control about ourselves, right, we can't let our

1586
01:37:56,360 --> 01:37:58,200
Speaker 1: hair go right. We can't let our hair and be

1587
01:37:58,360 --> 01:38:00,840
Speaker 1: what it is. We have to fix it. We can't

1588
01:38:00,880 --> 01:38:02,519
Speaker 1: let our skin be what it is. We have to

1589
01:38:02,560 --> 01:38:05,200
Speaker 1: fix it. We can't let our bodies be what they are.

1590
01:38:05,320 --> 01:38:08,080
Speaker 1: We have to control them. We can't let our emotions

1591
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:10,000
Speaker 1: be what they are. We have to control them. We

1592
01:38:10,040 --> 01:38:12,040
Speaker 1: can't let our ambition be what it is, We have

1593
01:38:12,120 --> 01:38:14,960
Speaker 1: to control it. We can't let our dreams be as

1594
01:38:15,000 --> 01:38:16,960
Speaker 1: big as they are. We have to control them. Like

1595
01:38:19,120 --> 01:38:23,160
Speaker 1: we can't let our body like. We do not love ourselves. Okay,

1596
01:38:23,400 --> 01:38:28,840
Speaker 1: whatever freaking commercials so commercials tell you about what is

1597
01:38:28,880 --> 01:38:31,960
Speaker 1: self love is not what self love is. What self

1598
01:38:32,040 --> 01:38:34,280
Speaker 1: love is is when you can leave yourself the funk

1599
01:38:34,320 --> 01:38:39,439
Speaker 1: alone because justust yourself. I do not love my body,

1600
01:38:39,960 --> 01:38:41,920
Speaker 1: and I know that, and it has nothing to do

1601
01:38:42,000 --> 01:38:44,320
Speaker 1: with the shape of my body. Okay, I don't give

1602
01:38:44,320 --> 01:38:47,240
Speaker 1: a shit about that. The reason I know I don't

1603
01:38:47,280 --> 01:38:49,639
Speaker 1: love my body is because I am still constantly trying

1604
01:38:49,680 --> 01:38:53,360
Speaker 1: to control it. Right, because so much of my day,

1605
01:38:53,520 --> 01:38:55,880
Speaker 1: because of the stuff that was ingrained in my bones

1606
01:38:55,920 --> 01:38:59,120
Speaker 1: when I was little, about how a woman earns her

1607
01:38:59,160 --> 01:39:02,479
Speaker 1: worthiness by stay small, I spent so much of my

1608
01:39:02,600 --> 01:39:06,240
Speaker 1: time and energy thinking about food and thinking about exercise

1609
01:39:06,280 --> 01:39:11,400
Speaker 1: because I'm trying to control my body to keep it small, okay,

1610
01:39:11,479 --> 01:39:13,920
Speaker 1: instead of just letting it be whatever it will be.

1611
01:39:14,560 --> 01:39:18,680
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. So what I mean by I mean I

1612
01:39:18,840 --> 01:39:22,600
Speaker 1: stopped dyeing my hair right when I still throw a

1613
01:39:22,640 --> 01:39:24,600
Speaker 1: bleaches it sometimes I think it's kind of fun. But

1614
01:39:24,760 --> 01:39:29,120
Speaker 1: like the Grays, Okay, I stopped botox in my face

1615
01:39:29,240 --> 01:39:31,120
Speaker 1: and just let it beat what it is. I stopped

1616
01:39:31,120 --> 01:39:32,960
Speaker 1: to control like I have stopped, and what I figured

1617
01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:36,160
Speaker 1: out is, oh, my hair is awesome, Oh my awesome.

1618
01:39:37,120 --> 01:39:39,120
Speaker 1: I've stopped trying to control my anger. I'm not trying

1619
01:39:39,120 --> 01:39:41,519
Speaker 1: to manage my anger anywhere. I'm harnessing my anger into

1620
01:39:41,600 --> 01:39:47,160
Speaker 1: change is good and smart and wise. Yes, because you're

1621
01:39:47,240 --> 01:39:51,519
Speaker 1: angry about the brokenness that you see. When I try

1622
01:39:51,680 --> 01:39:53,639
Speaker 1: to think that every time we feel angry there's something

1623
01:39:53,680 --> 01:39:56,160
Speaker 1: wrong with us, when I actually you know, it just

1624
01:39:56,240 --> 01:40:00,519
Speaker 1: means there's something wrong. And every marginalized group always be

1625
01:40:00,600 --> 01:40:02,320
Speaker 1: trained to be ashamed of their anger. And the reason

1626
01:40:02,400 --> 01:40:07,080
Speaker 1: why it's because angry people tend to demand change, simple, simple, simple, right.

1627
01:40:07,680 --> 01:40:10,200
Speaker 1: So that's what I mean by out of control is

1628
01:40:10,320 --> 01:40:14,639
Speaker 1: that I don't it means when I think she's out

1629
01:40:14,680 --> 01:40:17,080
Speaker 1: of control, what I mean is what I think is, oh,

1630
01:40:17,280 --> 01:40:22,840
Speaker 1: she's out of their control, out of harmful religions control,

1631
01:40:23,240 --> 01:40:27,120
Speaker 1: she's out of the beauty industries control, she's out of

1632
01:40:28,000 --> 01:40:31,960
Speaker 1: imbalance and just political control. She That's why me like

1633
01:40:32,600 --> 01:40:37,880
Speaker 1: women who are out of control of outside power and

1634
01:40:38,000 --> 01:40:41,640
Speaker 1: have returned to themselves and trust their inner power. And

1635
01:40:41,760 --> 01:40:44,640
Speaker 1: when you're out of their control, you can be in

1636
01:40:45,080 --> 01:40:52,519
Speaker 1: love with yourself, with your knowing, with your people. You

1637
01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:55,479
Speaker 1: stop gas when you finally see all the gas lighting

1638
01:40:55,520 --> 01:40:58,880
Speaker 1: for what it is. You mean, no, no, no, no,

1639
01:40:59,240 --> 01:41:02,799
Speaker 1: Like all my feel links are okay, m hm okay,

1640
01:41:03,600 --> 01:41:07,679
Speaker 1: my skins okay, my hair is okay, my pain is okay,

1641
01:41:08,400 --> 01:41:12,920
Speaker 1: my ambition is okay, my desires are okay. Like things

1642
01:41:13,479 --> 01:41:17,360
Speaker 1: are good. Everything that we are trying to unlearn comes

1643
01:41:17,439 --> 01:41:19,840
Speaker 1: from the basic thing that women are taught in a

1644
01:41:19,920 --> 01:41:24,240
Speaker 1: patriarch agriculture, which is that you are you are bad,

1645
01:41:24,280 --> 01:41:26,280
Speaker 1: and you cannot trust yourself, and so we have to

1646
01:41:26,400 --> 01:41:29,240
Speaker 1: reject that on every level and return to we are

1647
01:41:29,280 --> 01:41:33,400
Speaker 1: good and we can trust ourselves. One of my favorite

1648
01:41:33,439 --> 01:41:36,240
Speaker 1: things I've read that outside about your book, because obviously

1649
01:41:36,680 --> 01:41:38,800
Speaker 1: you know I love you and I'm also your biggest fan.

1650
01:41:39,880 --> 01:41:43,640
Speaker 1: In Parade Magazine, I read all the reviews, obviously, um

1651
01:41:43,920 --> 01:41:47,040
Speaker 1: they said something that I loved so much. They talked

1652
01:41:47,040 --> 01:41:49,120
Speaker 1: about your first two books, and they said, if carry

1653
01:41:49,200 --> 01:41:53,000
Speaker 1: On Warrior and Love Warrior were about the battles over self, compassion,

1654
01:41:53,600 --> 01:41:59,080
Speaker 1: and unnumbing from life's pain, Untamed gives readers the blueprint

1655
01:41:59,240 --> 01:42:04,920
Speaker 1: for final maybe having a chance at peace. And what

1656
01:42:05,160 --> 01:42:09,760
Speaker 1: you're saying to me about getting out of their control

1657
01:42:10,040 --> 01:42:14,439
Speaker 1: and back into self, which really taps us back into

1658
01:42:14,520 --> 01:42:17,679
Speaker 1: each other in a real way, in an authentic way,

1659
01:42:18,160 --> 01:42:22,080
Speaker 1: that that makes my heart feel at peace. And so

1660
01:42:22,240 --> 01:42:28,080
Speaker 1: I'm I'm excited for everyone to have been able during

1661
01:42:28,160 --> 01:42:30,839
Speaker 1: this conversation to bask in your words and your wisdom,

1662
01:42:30,880 --> 01:42:34,040
Speaker 1: but also to have the book. It's not lost on

1663
01:42:34,120 --> 01:42:37,400
Speaker 1: me by the way that under its perfect glittery cover,

1664
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:40,040
Speaker 1: with all of the colors and all of the passion

1665
01:42:40,120 --> 01:42:42,479
Speaker 1: that does we talked about this a couple of weeks ago.

1666
01:42:42,600 --> 01:42:44,360
Speaker 1: The book looks like an X ray of your insides,

1667
01:42:45,000 --> 01:42:48,639
Speaker 1: but under the cover the book is blue, like it's

1668
01:42:48,640 --> 01:42:54,120
Speaker 1: a blueprint. I love it so much. I want to

1669
01:42:54,120 --> 01:42:56,080
Speaker 1: ask you a hundred more questions, but I'm not going

1670
01:42:56,160 --> 01:42:59,160
Speaker 1: to because you have a life and children to go

1671
01:42:59,400 --> 01:43:05,040
Speaker 1: and you know, attend to or just yourself and tiktoks.

1672
01:43:05,080 --> 01:43:06,880
Speaker 1: This is what my children do now call them home.

1673
01:43:07,960 --> 01:43:10,800
Speaker 1: You know what, in a time of Corona. I think

1674
01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:12,800
Speaker 1: it's all fair and good. You know what they're doing,

1675
01:43:12,840 --> 01:43:15,240
Speaker 1: Glenn and there in film school, that's what TikTok is.

1676
01:43:16,640 --> 01:43:21,880
Speaker 1: They're learning to tell stories and edit sounds. Yeah, no,

1677
01:43:22,040 --> 01:43:24,720
Speaker 1: I think that's completely fair. But I do have one

1678
01:43:25,520 --> 01:43:27,640
Speaker 1: I have one last question for you, and I'm so

1679
01:43:27,880 --> 01:43:32,559
Speaker 1: excited to ask you. We're talking about being a work

1680
01:43:32,600 --> 01:43:36,080
Speaker 1: in progress. That's that's the whole theme of the show.

1681
01:43:36,200 --> 01:43:39,240
Speaker 1: And I I wonder when you hear the phrase, whether

1682
01:43:39,320 --> 01:43:43,200
Speaker 1: it's something that's personal or professional, or in any other

1683
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:47,640
Speaker 1: circle that goes in that ven diagram, what feels like

1684
01:43:47,680 --> 01:43:50,800
Speaker 1: a work in progress in your life? Right now? Okay,

1685
01:43:50,840 --> 01:43:55,040
Speaker 1: I'll tell you the real one if I did have

1686
01:43:55,200 --> 01:43:59,519
Speaker 1: as good ones. I think it's the body Ship. And

1687
01:43:59,600 --> 01:44:03,880
Speaker 1: I'm so I'm so annoyed about it, Sophia. I just

1688
01:44:04,240 --> 01:44:06,640
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm forty four years old. I think I

1689
01:44:07,040 --> 01:44:11,120
Speaker 1: google that yesterday in an interview of some reason. How

1690
01:44:11,160 --> 01:44:14,519
Speaker 1: old are yours? I think it's forty three? Four. Yeah,

1691
01:44:15,040 --> 01:44:18,000
Speaker 1: I have times in my life where I get the

1692
01:44:18,320 --> 01:44:19,760
Speaker 1: you know, I became believing when I was ten, and

1693
01:44:19,840 --> 01:44:23,559
Speaker 1: ever since then, I've struggled with body and I don't

1694
01:44:24,640 --> 01:44:28,040
Speaker 1: It's more like it's like compulsive thoughts about it. It's

1695
01:44:28,120 --> 01:44:32,519
Speaker 1: like it's kind of like being harassed by somebody really mean,

1696
01:44:33,000 --> 01:44:38,160
Speaker 1: but like the caller is from inside the house, and

1697
01:44:38,800 --> 01:44:41,479
Speaker 1: and it's so embarrassing for me because I feel like

1698
01:44:41,560 --> 01:44:45,040
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be this this leader for women and

1699
01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:47,479
Speaker 1: like this feminist person, and so I feel like, for

1700
01:44:47,600 --> 01:44:49,720
Speaker 1: God's sakes, I should at least have this body thing

1701
01:44:49,840 --> 01:44:52,639
Speaker 1: figured out, and I should not care and I should

1702
01:44:52,680 --> 01:44:55,360
Speaker 1: be freer about it. Um. But the truth is, I

1703
01:44:55,439 --> 01:44:57,960
Speaker 1: told Abby recently that I bet, like, I bet, it

1704
01:44:58,200 --> 01:45:00,800
Speaker 1: gets worse than better at different times. Some things around

1705
01:45:01,000 --> 01:45:04,560
Speaker 1: all usually gets worse, But I bet of all of

1706
01:45:04,640 --> 01:45:09,519
Speaker 1: my thoughts are about food, and and that makes me

1707
01:45:09,760 --> 01:45:14,040
Speaker 1: so furious because of the opportunity cost. Right, because I'm

1708
01:45:14,120 --> 01:45:16,400
Speaker 1: such a smart and powerful woman, and when I think

1709
01:45:16,400 --> 01:45:19,599
Speaker 1: about the art or the activism that could have happened

1710
01:45:19,720 --> 01:45:24,120
Speaker 1: if I had that back, that's the cost, right, That's

1711
01:45:24,160 --> 01:45:28,400
Speaker 1: the cost at the freaking messages. So anyway, I had

1712
01:45:28,439 --> 01:45:31,120
Speaker 1: gotten to the point where life and this is just

1713
01:45:31,280 --> 01:45:35,120
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna live this. It's fine, but I feel

1714
01:45:35,160 --> 01:45:41,080
Speaker 1: like maybe not, maybe I should could not should, maybe

1715
01:45:41,240 --> 01:45:49,400
Speaker 1: I could do the work. I'm just tired of all

1716
01:45:49,479 --> 01:45:53,080
Speaker 1: the work. You know, it's hard to be progress forever.

1717
01:45:53,280 --> 01:45:57,120
Speaker 1: It's so hard to be human. But I think because

1718
01:45:57,160 --> 01:45:59,080
Speaker 1: everyone lies and tells us one day we're going to

1719
01:45:59,160 --> 01:46:02,120
Speaker 1: wake up and feel right, and then eventually you realize, no,

1720
01:46:02,240 --> 01:46:04,599
Speaker 1: I'm not, and then you think I should do the work,

1721
01:46:04,680 --> 01:46:06,960
Speaker 1: and then you do the work and you get to

1722
01:46:07,040 --> 01:46:09,400
Speaker 1: the end of let's call it a worksheet for lack

1723
01:46:09,439 --> 01:46:14,360
Speaker 1: of a better term, and then there's a new worksheet

1724
01:46:14,760 --> 01:46:17,280
Speaker 1: and you're like, I'm sorry, what I have to this

1725
01:46:17,560 --> 01:46:22,920
Speaker 1: is cyclical, This goes on forever. If I want to

1726
01:46:22,960 --> 01:46:26,839
Speaker 1: be a conscious person, I have to do this forever.

1727
01:46:27,840 --> 01:46:33,639
Speaker 1: Oh so much. And then I said, yeah that really,

1728
01:46:34,680 --> 01:46:37,160
Speaker 1: it's like we all just have the same freaking theory

1729
01:46:37,320 --> 01:46:40,960
Speaker 1: worksheets our whole entire dim life. Like all of my

1730
01:46:41,080 --> 01:46:43,519
Speaker 1: issues are really just like three things and they just

1731
01:46:43,680 --> 01:46:49,559
Speaker 1: keep coming back over and over again iterations every decade

1732
01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:53,320
Speaker 1: of my life. You know, it would be cool. By

1733
01:46:53,400 --> 01:46:56,840
Speaker 1: the pat I was fifty, I was a little bit

1734
01:46:57,000 --> 01:47:02,880
Speaker 1: freer in the body food progress. It's where I will

1735
01:47:04,400 --> 01:47:07,560
Speaker 1: that's my work in progress. I love that. And you know,

1736
01:47:09,040 --> 01:47:11,839
Speaker 1: maybe you've done so much work on so many systems

1737
01:47:11,920 --> 01:47:16,000
Speaker 1: that affect us out there that now that inner part

1738
01:47:16,080 --> 01:47:17,920
Speaker 1: of you is saying, yeah, you've got to look at

1739
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:21,800
Speaker 1: the one that affects us in here too. Love me

1740
01:47:21,920 --> 01:47:27,559
Speaker 1: the way you love the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank

1741
01:47:27,640 --> 01:47:31,160
Speaker 1: you so much. I'm sure next Tuesday I'll have it

1742
01:47:31,200 --> 01:47:34,840
Speaker 1: all figured out. Next Tuesday, I'm just going to get

1743
01:47:34,840 --> 01:47:36,519
Speaker 1: a photo of a worksheet and you'll be like, I

1744
01:47:36,600 --> 01:47:45,120
Speaker 1: did it well, my sister. I love you. I'm I'm

1745
01:47:45,280 --> 01:47:48,240
Speaker 1: so grateful for your book. I'm so freaking proud of you,

1746
01:47:48,920 --> 01:47:51,559
Speaker 1: which probably feels weird, but i am. I'm just like God,

1747
01:47:51,600 --> 01:47:55,960
Speaker 1: I'm proud of her. Thank you. I'm proud to know.

1748
01:47:56,439 --> 01:47:59,760
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to be your fund and sister. Thank

1749
01:47:59,800 --> 01:48:02,439
Speaker 1: you sharing all of this with with all of us.

1750
01:48:03,880 --> 01:48:07,040
Speaker 1: Thanks for trusting me with this beautiful community you've made here.

1751
01:48:07,600 --> 01:48:15,200
Speaker 1: They're so cool. They really are so cool. This show

1752
01:48:15,320 --> 01:48:18,759
Speaker 1: is executive produced by Me, Sophia Bush, and sim Sarna.

1753
01:48:19,400 --> 01:48:23,439
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Our associate producer is

1754
01:48:23,520 --> 01:48:27,479
Speaker 1: Kate Linley. This episode was edited by Matt Sasaki, and

1755
01:48:27,600 --> 01:48:30,000
Speaker 1: our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by

1756
01:48:30,040 --> 01:48:32,479
Speaker 1: Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by Brilliant

1757
01:48:32,520 --> 01:48:32,960
Speaker 1: Anatomy