Speaker 1: Check it down man, Now down there. It's the Meeting
Speaker 1: the Book podcast, Gil Alexander. Hope you and your family
Speaker 1: are staying safe during the global pandemic. Today on the
Speaker 1: podcast Advantage Play. First, Michael Kaplan, who is the author
Speaker 1: of several books and has written a myriad of gambling
Speaker 1: pieces for publications like The New York Times, New York Post, Cigarficionado,
Speaker 1: and Thrillists, among others, joins me and Bill Krackenburger to
Speaker 1: talk about some of the stories that he's covered, including
Speaker 1: his latest about the Hollywood poker game that Toby McGuire
Speaker 1: was a part of. We'll get into that with Michael,
Speaker 1: followed by an interview I did a couple of years
Speaker 1: ago that we touched upon with Michael. This time, Rose
Speaker 1: Eveless joins me. Rose even Lef was the producer of
Speaker 1: the thirty for thirty called a Queen of Sort. Has
Speaker 1: everything to do with Phil Ivy and his mysterious Asian
Speaker 1: counterpart who goes by the name of Kelly. Fascinating stories
Speaker 1: a little different. Hope you enjoy it. Advantage Play. On
Speaker 1: today's Beating the Book podcast, It's a numbers game with
Speaker 1: your host, Jil Alexander wants to believe in Adams. Yes
Speaker 1: I am. It is Gill Alexander live from San Francisco.
Speaker 1: Good morning to you, serious except Channel two four, Visa
Speaker 1: dot Com, the Visa app, Fubo, Slang Game plus on
Speaker 1: down the line, a real treat. First of all, this gentleman, uh,
Speaker 1: Bill Crackenburger is always on the show on Thursdays, but
Speaker 1: has decided to sort of hook us up once again
Speaker 1: by my request, with the gentleman who I really want
Speaker 1: to talk to, So Billy. First of all, good morning
Speaker 1: to you. Good morning. Uh. The gentleman that we are
Speaker 1: referring to is Michael Kaplan. He uh has written four books, um,
Speaker 1: a couple of which are about gambling, All Sensible Chances,
Speaker 1: Our Adventures and probability aces and King's inside stories and
Speaker 1: million dollar strategies from Poker's greatest players, and perhaps more prominently,
Speaker 1: I don't know more, Uh, you know where people recognize him,
Speaker 1: for I think greatly so, perhaps more than the books themselves,
Speaker 1: are pieces that he's written about gambling and about advantage
Speaker 1: place specifically uh in The New York Times, The New
Speaker 1: York Post, Thrillist, Cigar Aficionado, Wired, and Playboy, among the
Speaker 1: publications we bring him in now courtesy of Bill Crackerburger.
Speaker 1: It is Michael Kaplan. Good morning to you, Michael, and
Speaker 1: thank you for making the time. Sir, hey man, how
Speaker 1: are you. It's it's great to be on doing very well.
Speaker 1: And I didn't realize you had a Twitter at Kaplan Words.
Speaker 1: I searched for it desperately, So I'm glad you're on
Speaker 1: at Kaplan Words. That's me. I'm not. I'm not as
Speaker 1: active on it as I might say in two busy
Speaker 1: writing stories, but you know, I try. I try to
Speaker 1: post on that when I can, first of before I
Speaker 1: get into some of the things I want to ask
Speaker 1: you about, because there is Honestly, I don't know that
Speaker 1: there's a writer who has who has really had this
Speaker 1: great of a chance to talk to as many advantage
Speaker 1: players as you have over the course of your career.
Speaker 1: But how did you two meet? You? You and Bill Michael? Well,
Speaker 1: we met. We met through a sports better we both
Speaker 1: know in New York. That's that's my recollection, Um, Bill, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: we we met through We we met through a sports
Speaker 1: better that we're both acquainted with. I think remember having
Speaker 1: iced tea at an outdoor I remember sitting in being
Speaker 1: in the East Village with you and this other gentleman.
Speaker 1: We're having iced tea at a at a cafe in
Speaker 1: in in the East Village in New York City. Wow, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess. So you know we've we've been uh, we've
Speaker 1: been friends so long I actually forgot, but yeah, it
Speaker 1: was the initials are j M. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: don't know how much you want your name splattered around
Speaker 1: that's all you want to say. Um, yeah, I think
Speaker 1: I think that. I think, uh, I think that's exactly
Speaker 1: how we met. I know, we we ate over and Carol,
Speaker 1: Carol Varden's over in uh in the Italian Joy Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: wow you remember? Good? But yeah, I think that's what
Speaker 1: I meant. And and I've been fascinated with Michael for
Speaker 1: years because there's not that many times you have an
Speaker 1: opportunity to be with a journalist that knows both sides
Speaker 1: of the counter. Not so sports betting. But Michael has
Speaker 1: been around advantage gambling for a long time himself. Uh,
Speaker 1: I know, we we we've been to a couple of
Speaker 1: casinos ourself, and uh, we we've I'll just say this
Speaker 1: without spoiling some things. Michael knows a lot of things.
Speaker 1: He's a sharp guy himself, so it's fascinating that thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, thanks for being on, Michael. Michael, that's a lot.
Speaker 1: That's a lot coming from Bill, because I mean Bill
Speaker 1: is extremely sharp. So I a pre shake that thank you, Oh, Michael.
Speaker 1: I spent I spent the weekend reading just about as
Speaker 1: much as I could from you over time. The m
Speaker 1: I T. Blackjack Team, Um, James gross Gen, Phil Ivy
Speaker 1: and Kelly, the mysterious uh Asian counterparts. She really she
Speaker 1: was the head of the Bakara global attack on casinos.
Speaker 1: I've actually had rose Eva Lef on the show before
Speaker 1: she produced the ESPN thirty for thirty doc about it. Um,
Speaker 1: you've written about characters like Ms Brown, Edward, Tiger, Mike Davis,
Speaker 1: Don Johnson. Uh. I guess the question that that is
Speaker 1: begged here is of all of the characters that you've
Speaker 1: run into all of the years and written about, and
Speaker 1: maybe this is an impossible question answer, so maybe I
Speaker 1: should apologize in advance. But of all of them, what's
Speaker 1: the single most incredible when you think about all of them? Um,
Speaker 1: good question. I mean Tiger Mike was incredibly interesting, but
Speaker 1: I mean, I will tell you like probably the most.
Speaker 1: And these guys are advantaged players, but not in casinos.
Speaker 1: I did a story years ago for Wired about these
Speaker 1: two Arab brothers. They live in this place called Farkassum.
Speaker 1: It's sort of like and you know, a sort of
Speaker 1: Arab enclave, um, not that far from Tel Aviv. And
Speaker 1: these guys basically ran circles around the Israeli telephone company.
Speaker 1: They were phone hackers, and they were blind, and um,
Speaker 1: these guys are insane advantaged players at at phone hacking,
Speaker 1: which was incredibly interesting to make. Another one that that
Speaker 1: I was really into, which is more gambling related. I
Speaker 1: did a story about these computer teams that made apparently,
Speaker 1: I mean you know that they made over a billion dollars,
Speaker 1: you know, beating horse racing in Hong Kong. They came
Speaker 1: up with a computer system to model racing and turn
Speaker 1: off that Hong Kong was the ideal place to do
Speaker 1: that in because it's a small pool of horses, a
Speaker 1: small pool of jockeys, and they don't it's not like
Speaker 1: you know, all of a sudden, some new horse and
Speaker 1: and writer are going to come in from out of nowhere.
Speaker 1: And I mean, these guys made an awful lot of money,
Speaker 1: and it was really fascinating spending some time with them.
Speaker 1: So I mean those are two that I found really
Speaker 1: really interested. Is there a common thread, I mean among
Speaker 1: all of these folks or or are they all unique
Speaker 1: in their own way? Or is there something Is there
Speaker 1: a brush where you can paint a broad stroke over
Speaker 1: all of them. I think there are people who kind
Speaker 1: of are pretty obsessed with figuring out how to beat something,
Speaker 1: but like, you know, obsessed in a way that you know,
Speaker 1: normal people would not be. I mean, you know, a
Speaker 1: guy like James Gross Jean, I mean that guy, if
Speaker 1: he wants to figure out a game, I mean he'll
Speaker 1: be up night and day running computer simulations and figuring
Speaker 1: out how to He'll know the game better than the
Speaker 1: person who created the game. And I mean, you know
Speaker 1: that like that, and I think that is a common threat.
Speaker 1: I think there's a sort of upset sh and that
Speaker 1: certain people develop with you know, beating these games. I
Speaker 1: mean obviously it's you know, financially rewarding, but it also
Speaker 1: is a lot of work. Like I mean, you know
Speaker 1: there's that say, you know it's an easy you know,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a hard way to make an easy living.
Speaker 1: And I mean that's definitely. Um I think applies to
Speaker 1: the most successful of these a p s is that
Speaker 1: they work so hard at it and they just don't
Speaker 1: give up, and it's like, you know, it becomes you know,
Speaker 1: kind of their life and it's it's interesting. I mean,
Speaker 1: they have an amazing work ethics, they're incredibly bright, and
Speaker 1: they can kind of think in ways that other people
Speaker 1: aren't thinking, you know, and it's, um, it's yeah, it's
Speaker 1: really it's a really interesting world. And I feel privileged
Speaker 1: that I've been privy to it. And I mean and
Speaker 1: I played on a pretty big card counting team for
Speaker 1: a while and I have a t V PID for
Speaker 1: a pretty big casino play that kind of dropped into
Speaker 1: my last So I've been around it like as a
Speaker 1: reporter and you know, to some degree as a practitioner.
Speaker 1: And it's it's really interesting. Do you still have an
Speaker 1: itch to be a practitioner or you or are those
Speaker 1: days behind you? Well, if the right opportunity exactly let's
Speaker 1: put it that way, if the right opportunity presented itself,
Speaker 1: I would do it. I Mean it's one of these
Speaker 1: things where like you know, card counting is something that
Speaker 1: people think, oh, yeah, it's like a license to print money,
Speaker 1: and I will tell you it definitely is not. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's extremely volatile, and yeah you can make money doing it,
Speaker 1: but hey, it's a lot of work. It's very volatile.
Speaker 1: You need to put it enough hours to iron out
Speaker 1: the variants. Um, it's really the James Grosten called me
Speaker 1: and said he needs somebody to be p I would say, Okay,
Speaker 1: where do I beat you? So, yeah, if the right
Speaker 1: opportunity came came about, I would. I would definitely do it. Well,
Speaker 1: James Grostan, who you wrote I'm sure more than once about,
Speaker 1: but but extensively. The article that I that I focused
Speaker 1: in on was the one in Oklahoma, Whereas again you
Speaker 1: mentioned he sleeps maybe two or three hours a night,
Speaker 1: so he's out working everybody to try to figure out
Speaker 1: how to beat the game. But just a fascinating story.
Speaker 1: And I think if Grocer calls any of us, we
Speaker 1: probably pick up the phone and be part of the
Speaker 1: advantage play. We're talking to Michael Kaplan, who has written
Speaker 1: so many pieces about advantage players. By the way, when
Speaker 1: he says a P S that's what he's referring to. UM,
Speaker 1: at kaplan words on Twitter. Bill, you were I hope
Speaker 1: I'm not speaking out of school here. You were instrumental
Speaker 1: in one of at least one of Michael's articles in
Speaker 1: terms of just sort of hooking him up with folks.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah, Michael will call me from time
Speaker 1: to time and ask me some questions or um, I
Speaker 1: actually hooked him up with Eddie Teams, right, Michael? Is
Speaker 1: that all right? That is true? That is true. We met, um,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean the funny thing is you and
Speaker 1: I played in a black jack torn I don't know
Speaker 1: if you remember this or not. We played in a
Speaker 1: black jack tournament at um Um what is it? The
Speaker 1: treasure island and between and between between hand you know,
Speaker 1: between rounds, we went and we went to have some
Speaker 1: eggs or something, you know, in the in the cafe there,
Speaker 1: and um and Eddie was in there and you know,
Speaker 1: to use your to use your Lingno, I mean, I
Speaker 1: had no idea who the guy was. You go, this
Speaker 1: guy is the sharpest of the shark. That was what
Speaker 1: you said to me. And you know he was sitting
Speaker 1: there with Stanford Wong's book. You know, everybody else is
Speaker 1: just you know, kind of relaxing, having breakfast, just you know,
Speaker 1: like I'm not saying whatever happens happens, but you know,
Speaker 1: like we're there to play. And that was that this
Speaker 1: guy was like brushing up on stuff. And you know,
Speaker 1: every other page had you know, a post it note
Speaker 1: with notes in it. I mean, listen, and that's that's
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about when I say about guys who
Speaker 1: are who are aps and like taking very very seriously.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, this guy was there to win money.
Speaker 1: I mean we all were, but you know, not to
Speaker 1: the degree that he was. And it's, um, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting, yeah, sharps, um sorry, go. He is
Speaker 1: one of the sharpest sharps. And and I was actually
Speaker 1: shocked that he was, uh that that he actually would
Speaker 1: would go on and want to talk about something. But
Speaker 1: I asked him, and uh, you know a lot of
Speaker 1: these guys, you have to understand, they've been so super genius,
Speaker 1: so super boxed up. They're the guys that were made
Speaker 1: fun of their whole lives while they were younger. They
Speaker 1: were the smaller people in school. They were the ones
Speaker 1: that would do the extra credit. They would do the
Speaker 1: you know, maybe even the Southern and teaching the students.
Speaker 1: So these kind of guys have been kind of shut
Speaker 1: ins um and their their whole life. And now that
Speaker 1: advantage gambling is talked about a little bit, well it's
Speaker 1: now maybe almost like it's almost like you're coming out
Speaker 1: of the closet for you could talk to people about
Speaker 1: being an advantage gambler now, just like Michael was so
Speaker 1: quick to do there, which I'm shocked but I'm glad
Speaker 1: he did it about being a card counter. And black
Speaker 1: Jack's absolutely how I know Michael one of the reasons
Speaker 1: I think I know about Michael. But so these type
Speaker 1: of guys, as we noticed with even are even the
Speaker 1: Visa network, Um, they'll pop out once in a while.
Speaker 1: They're looking for a little more arriety now because hey,
Speaker 1: their whole lives. They were kind of the ones that really, uh,
Speaker 1: their their brain was hurting. It was so painful because
Speaker 1: they couldn't really tell anyone, They couldn't really express their
Speaker 1: feelings of people because no one really understood or even
Speaker 1: wanted to understand. However, with a network like Visa or
Speaker 1: just any kind of social media, these people out now
Speaker 1: have a have a voice, They have somewhere they can talk,
Speaker 1: so introduced them to Michael. Michael wrote the greatest piece
Speaker 1: in Cigar for Grnado on Eddie and whatever Eddie's doing there,
Speaker 1: if you see him in the casino doing something, you
Speaker 1: can guarantee there's an advantage to it. So great story.
Speaker 1: It's available on the internet. And okay, go affack to you.
Speaker 1: No no no no, But you know, Eddie is one of
Speaker 1: these guys, and we'll sort of get background on some
Speaker 1: of these stories. But Edie was one of these guys
Speaker 1: who did lots of things. But but along the lines
Speaker 1: of what you were saying, Bill, Um, Michael, it's it's
Speaker 1: an interesting point that Bill makes that this is advantage play,
Speaker 1: and so by nature of advantage play, you know, it
Speaker 1: kind of behooves those aps to sort of keep their
Speaker 1: mouth shut. But there is this sort of human conflict. Uh.
Speaker 1: And Bill called it notoriety that that's being sought. And
Speaker 1: you've written about at least one or two of these
Speaker 1: guys who in the end, when they say, would you've
Speaker 1: done anything differently, they're like, yeah, I probably wouldn't have
Speaker 1: talked as much. It's probably is an element to that.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting to me, like, you know, doing
Speaker 1: this sort of thing. It's one of the few things
Speaker 1: that you know, you get that's it's not you know,
Speaker 1: it's one of the few things you can do that legal.
Speaker 1: You get very very good at it, and it's your
Speaker 1: it's in your interest that that when you're in the
Speaker 1: place where you do this thing, that nobody knows what
Speaker 1: you're actually doing, even though it's completely it's you know,
Speaker 1: obviously it's completely legal. I mean, it's um, it's just
Speaker 1: it's a pretty it's a pretty interesting um economy. It's
Speaker 1: like an interesting sort of shadow world that these guys
Speaker 1: um came to operate and and um, you know, I
Speaker 1: mean I was at an event. This is an event
Speaker 1: that takes place each year called the Blackjack Ball, and
Speaker 1: it's a it's a you know, it's this gathering of
Speaker 1: people who you know beat casino games. Is a sort
Speaker 1: of secret gathering. May have written about it because I'm
Speaker 1: not like speaking out of school about it, but it
Speaker 1: definitely is one of these things where like you will
Speaker 1: not see photos from there. I was at a dinner
Speaker 1: the night before and there were a bunch of people
Speaker 1: and um, somebody tell you, let's get a photo, and
Speaker 1: you know, one of these you know kind of really
Speaker 1: high end practitioners goes no, and you know, this person
Speaker 1: could just ducked away and there was no way in
Speaker 1: hell they were going to be um. They were going
Speaker 1: to be photographed, even though it was just you know,
Speaker 1: for some person wasn't going to post it online or something.
Speaker 1: But people are very very careful. It's it's fascinating all
Speaker 1: these pieces because the really you know, when when folks
Speaker 1: outside of betting asked me about better, they're a whole
Speaker 1: section of society that that immediately is sort of dismissive.
Speaker 1: And I always say, I was like, yeah, but you
Speaker 1: know what, the top two percent of these guys, I
Speaker 1: put him in any profession and up up, go up
Speaker 1: against any professions. Top two Uh. It really is just
Speaker 1: an amazing swath of of human beings. Michael, when we
Speaker 1: come back, if you're kind enough to stay with us,
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about, first of all, what
Speaker 1: you might be working on currently or what you have
Speaker 1: your eyes on, uh these days. Where does the phil
Speaker 1: Ivy Kelly case uh stand right now in terms of
Speaker 1: it's a judication globally. Want to get into that a
Speaker 1: little bit. And then on our air this past Friday, Uh,
Speaker 1: we had Houston Curtis on on Follow the Money. I
Speaker 1: want to play a clip from that and get your
Speaker 1: gauge on just what Houston Curtis was up to a
Speaker 1: p or more exploitation than anything. We'll get into that
Speaker 1: coming up with Michael Kaplan and Bill Crackenburger, of course,
Speaker 1: who did it all for us? Right here on a
Speaker 1: numbers game at Visa, the sports betting network. Welcome back
Speaker 1: to a number game with Jill Alexander. Man escapes dot
Speaker 1: com has the tools for your family jewels. You can
Speaker 1: get off plus free shipping with the code vs in
Speaker 1: at manscape dot com. That's off at man escaped dot
Speaker 1: com with promo code v s I n It's Gill Alexander,
Speaker 1: Bill Crackenburger and Michael Kaplan kind enough to join us
Speaker 1: for most of this hour. He's written pieces about advantage
Speaker 1: play in the New York Times, New York Post, Thrillist.
Speaker 1: Cigarifici not a Wired Playboy, author of four books. Um
Speaker 1: has written stuff about advantage play, even when it comes
Speaker 1: to a stripper who made three hundred thousand dollars a
Speaker 1: year in Las Vegas. Have you ever followed up with
Speaker 1: her at all? Michael. I actually did call her about
Speaker 1: something else I was writing on and she just goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know about that, but yeah she was. She
Speaker 1: was a made at I mean, like you know, but listen,
Speaker 1: that's like another example of somebody who's an eight who,
Speaker 1: like you know, most strippers, they show up, they do
Speaker 1: their work. She cared of at it so much like
Speaker 1: she didn't drink, didn't do drugs, drove you know, her
Speaker 1: old Volkswagen jettle while all these other strippers are buying BMW's.
Speaker 1: You know, she exercised before she went, and she meditated,
Speaker 1: she got her nails done. I mean, she went in
Speaker 1: there just like an ap walks into a casino. It
Speaker 1: was like no different, which was which was amazing that
Speaker 1: you know, you've got all these women that you know,
Speaker 1: they're making good money or whatever, but they're not in
Speaker 1: there to crush it like she was. It was. It
Speaker 1: was just in its own way, fascinating. Billy I did
Speaker 1: an old deep dive on Michael this week, and believe me,
Speaker 1: I read every I read everything, No please, it was
Speaker 1: it was. I'll put it this way, and Bill, you
Speaker 1: can appreciate this too. I'm a sports better. I don't
Speaker 1: I don't play cards, I don't usually play casino games
Speaker 1: of any kind. But reading your reading your stuff, and
Speaker 1: I know Bill does dabble more than dabble. Reading your stuff,
Speaker 1: it almost made me want to just like I've been
Speaker 1: doing this wrong all these years? My god, why have
Speaker 1: I been know? Like it got that far into my head.
Speaker 1: I was like, this is just phenomenal stuff. You must
Speaker 1: I mean, really, you say you're a practitioner. But but
Speaker 1: wouldn't you say because Billy and I were talking about
Speaker 1: this this weekend, Bill, you'll you'll articulate maybe better for me.
Speaker 1: It's our little corner of the world, whether it's sports betting,
Speaker 1: or whether it's advantage play in other casino games or
Speaker 1: otherwise we just talked about. It really is a phenomenal
Speaker 1: cross section of humanity, Like it's just never ending in
Speaker 1: its fascinating characters. I'm coming in here for one second.
Speaker 1: You know, I love when someone I love when someone
Speaker 1: challenges me or something about and and Michael knows what
Speaker 1: I'm talking about here. I can walk into almost any
Speaker 1: casino in Las Vegas, especially the East coast Atlantic city,
Speaker 1: and I love to bet anyone that wants to bet me.
Speaker 1: If I can make money in that casino by the
Speaker 1: time I walk out. I'll bet any amount of money
Speaker 1: to anybody that I could walk into a casino and
Speaker 1: I can make money. On the way out, I'll have
Speaker 1: more money than I went in with. Because there's so
Speaker 1: many advantages in casino is not granted, it's a grind.
Speaker 1: The r o I that I would have compared to
Speaker 1: sports betting and doing other things I do is not
Speaker 1: as much, so I stick to sports betting. However, there
Speaker 1: are certain bonus machines and bankable machines. Every casino has them.
Speaker 1: You put your time in its tedious work. But I
Speaker 1: know one thing, without a doubt. If I didn't have
Speaker 1: sports betting, I'd be walking through a casino. It's a casino,
Speaker 1: each casino making a little bit of money, thirty bucks,
Speaker 1: fifty bucks, eighty bucks. I guarantee you every day I
Speaker 1: would have a profit because these casinos all have these
Speaker 1: type of machines. And I'm sure Michael knows what I'm
Speaker 1: talking about. Um and and there's some other people on
Speaker 1: the network that uh knows what I'm talking about because
Speaker 1: then they know about these bankable machines. So anyway, go ahead, guys, Yeah, that.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's interesting. Yeah, I mean like that's always
Speaker 1: like the funny thing you people who like I've talked
Speaker 1: to people who love GA and I could tell you
Speaker 1: how to beat this game of that and but like they,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, that sounds too much like a job. I
Speaker 1: think most people don't mind losing the money and they're
Speaker 1: there for recreation, and it's you know, that's fine, there's
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with that. It in some ways, I've buried
Speaker 1: the headline and I want to get back to uh
Speaker 1: to it momentarily because Michael, you've had something actually we'll
Speaker 1: get it here because we have sixty seconds. But you
Speaker 1: had something optioned here that you that you uh I
Speaker 1: wasn't aware of. Oh yeah, this the story that I
Speaker 1: did on Kelly got option for a movie. So it's
Speaker 1: in the process of being written, so it'll be about
Speaker 1: the Kelly's Sun. Still I've the great Bakara Caper. Have
Speaker 1: you ever had anything option before? First one? I've come,
Speaker 1: I've come close a couple of times that this is, um,
Speaker 1: this is the first one. Yes, I'm pretty excited about it.
Speaker 1: Oh man, So this is yeah, that's huge for for you.
Speaker 1: I would imagine that's great. You can I hope that
Speaker 1: I hope that they allow you to be part of
Speaker 1: the process. That's always a question mark in it, that
Speaker 1: that is a question. I'll let you know what happens.
Speaker 1: I would love I would look along. Yeah, we'll come back,
Speaker 1: because I do want to ask you about, uh, this
Speaker 1: latest piece that you wrote in the New York Post
Speaker 1: about Houston Curtis and his account of what really went
Speaker 1: on in that Hollywood poker game with Toby mcguireel coming back,
Speaker 1: Michael Kaplan, Bill Crackerberg a numbers game at Visa these
Speaker 1: Sports Betting Network Welcome back to a numbers game with
Speaker 1: Jill Alexander. It is a numbers game right here at Visa.
Speaker 1: The Sports Betting Network series XM twoh for Gail Alexander,
Speaker 1: Bill Crackenberger, my buddy with us uh and Michael Kaplan
Speaker 1: at Kaplan words on Twitter. Uh there is and honestly,
Speaker 1: as we're doing this, there's no real justice we can
Speaker 1: do to the volume and the detail of work that
Speaker 1: Michael has done with all these pieces. But I would
Speaker 1: just send people to everybody out there if you're if
Speaker 1: you're interested in some of these characters and all of
Speaker 1: Michael's pieces, just google them um again from just the
Speaker 1: most amazing characters in the world. Edward Tiger, Mike Davis.
Speaker 1: I mean names I've never heard of before. Don Johnson
Speaker 1: might be familiar to some, but uh yeah, James Grossjen
Speaker 1: who is known to all sort of advantage players. Just
Speaker 1: great pieces on all of these guys. Michael, I couldn't
Speaker 1: have been more entertained and more fascinated. We have a
Speaker 1: show on the network Monday through Friday. It's called Follow
Speaker 1: the Money. It precedes this show hosted by Mitch and PAULI,
Speaker 1: and they had Houston Curtis on air with them on Friday.
Speaker 1: Your latest piece in the New York Post had to
Speaker 1: do with Houston Curtis's new book. Uh. That new book
Speaker 1: is called The Billion Dollar Hollywood Heist. It's all about
Speaker 1: his version of events. Was really reaction to the to
Speaker 1: the motion picture Molly's Game, which had a lot of
Speaker 1: acclaim Molly Bloom's account of what went on in a
Speaker 1: famous Hollywood poker game that involved Toby maguire and others.
Speaker 1: But here's what Houston Curtis had to say on Follow
Speaker 1: the Money, and I'm curious to get your reaction. Afterwards.
Speaker 1: I told him about this game, and then that next week,
Speaker 1: Toby showed up at the game, and uh, and then
Speaker 1: he invited me to his house the next night, and
Speaker 1: that's when we really just connected and we started realizing
Speaker 1: that these guys, Uh, there's so many guys in town
Speaker 1: who just learned how to play poker, like they didn't
Speaker 1: even they didn't even know how shuffle a deck of cards,
Speaker 1: most of the guys who were playing in this game,
Speaker 1: but for Texas, all of you just gotta learn how
Speaker 1: to hold two cards and know what the hands are
Speaker 1: right and if I can sit and play with all
Speaker 1: these big celebrities, So we identified that. Uh in your opinion,
Speaker 1: you're educated opinion, Michael. I mean Houston, Curtis, Toby McGuire
Speaker 1: advantage players mainly or or exploitive just as much. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean they they were manage players and they definitely
Speaker 1: put together, you know, a game and like you know,
Speaker 1: everybody knew. Listen. You know, there's the thing about poker
Speaker 1: is you know who the good players at the game
Speaker 1: are because they're the guys that win all the time.
Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, Houston won all the time
Speaker 1: until he lost a million of dollars one night, which
Speaker 1: you know was not a great ending for him, but um,
Speaker 1: you know the excellent at poker. It's kind of interesting,
Speaker 1: you almost I think people at poker kind of exploit
Speaker 1: themselves a little bit because you're sitting there and you
Speaker 1: see weekend and week out. You know, Houston and and
Speaker 1: Toby were the we're the you know, consistently the big winners.
Speaker 1: So I mean, you know, you could always not play
Speaker 1: in the game. You can always find a softer game
Speaker 1: to play in, or a game where you're not going
Speaker 1: to be you know what I mean, one of the
Speaker 1: one of them, you know, the producers as they call them,
Speaker 1: you know, in the game. I mean, like I think
Speaker 1: go ahead, and Michael, I'm sorry, Oh, I mean you know,
Speaker 1: like I guess, like I think with poker, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like it's it's weird in a way because everybody
Speaker 1: knows how everybody else did. So if you're losing weekend
Speaker 1: and week out, listen, it might be entertaining for you.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, you know, they certainly set it up
Speaker 1: so that you know, they had Leo DiCaprio there and
Speaker 1: you know, to get to good play in the game
Speaker 1: with Leo and Toby. That sounds like you know, you're
Speaker 1: gonna quest you some money, but you're rich and you
Speaker 1: might win once in a while. Maybe not that bad
Speaker 1: of a deal. Bill. Oh hey yeah, Uh well, listen
Speaker 1: how many guys used to fly into Vegas to play
Speaker 1: with Phil Ivy or Daniel Lagrono and you know dropped
Speaker 1: fifty or a hundred thousand dollars you could, um, go
Speaker 1: on and on. Let's let's use the banker, the big
Speaker 1: guy in Texas and do you think his name was?
Speaker 1: Andy Beale? Came in and lost you know, millions of dollars. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, and in the end, this this uh, this
Speaker 1: team of players beat him up because you know, he
Speaker 1: had the kind of money as a bank care he's
Speaker 1: a billionaire. Uh. This this happens. So of course these
Speaker 1: Hollywood type same thing. They all want to get together, um,
Speaker 1: you know, and they want to be with the likes
Speaker 1: of these players. Um. You know, my own opinion is
Speaker 1: that I'm a little more I'm a little more tough.
Speaker 1: You know. I watched I'm a street guy. I'm a
Speaker 1: knock around guy because he tells sometimes what people talking.
Speaker 1: I watched the interview with Mitch and Paulie. You know, Um,
Speaker 1: the guy has his side. I'm not saying it's the
Speaker 1: right side. You know, he's a little bit of a
Speaker 1: huckster himself. You remember, now, this guy is a card mechanic,
Speaker 1: So which that means is he's cheating people. Not saying
Speaker 1: he was cheating in that game, because Michael and I
Speaker 1: talked about this, Supposedly he wasn't. But he's never gonna
Speaker 1: tell Michael. He's never gonna tell anyone when he's writing
Speaker 1: a book that he's cheating up cheating these Hollywood guys either.
Speaker 1: So I don't I'm a little more cynical. I think maybe, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, you can't lose that. If you're
Speaker 1: a cheater and you lose a couple of plots, legitimately
Speaker 1: you get mad. You're you're gonna start dealing off the
Speaker 1: bottom again. You're gonna start dealing seconds from the deck.
Speaker 1: These are terms that mechanics used, so um, you know, listen,
Speaker 1: you're talking about tobym Wire. I played with him twice
Speaker 1: at the Bellaggio. I played with him at Max Factor's
Speaker 1: son studio, Dean Factor in l A. I played a
Speaker 1: private game with him, I was in a tournament with him.
Speaker 1: Not my favorite guy. I'll be happy to tell you that.
Speaker 1: I'll be happy to tell that to him to his face.
Speaker 1: So not my favorite type of guy. He's not friendly
Speaker 1: to people. Um. I've seen him turn down a little
Speaker 1: kid's autograph at that the game there, someone brought the
Speaker 1: sun um during a break. Uh you know listen, I've
Speaker 1: watched him uh tip or not tip waitresses. So um,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of like Tiger Woods. You know, I
Speaker 1: rape people by tipping sometimes, so I'm sorry to do that,
Speaker 1: but um, anyway, that's my take on it. The guys
Speaker 1: like Matt Damon and Ben Affleck, I've been with them,
Speaker 1: fantastic triple George taking care of everybody. I'll just show
Speaker 1: you the difference. Michael. We have one thing that I'll
Speaker 1: say about Houston though, is you know there was a
Speaker 1: dealer he so he couldn't he didn't deal in the
Speaker 1: game at all or whatever that's worth. Yeah, yeah for whatever, No,
Speaker 1: that's true. That needs to be pointed out. Um, Michael,
Speaker 1: Willie have sixty seconds here left, So I just wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you beyond the optioning of your story on
Speaker 1: phil Ivy and Kelly. That's what she's known as, by
Speaker 1: the way, not a real name. Um, what do you what?
Speaker 1: What is in your cross hairs right now? What are
Speaker 1: you thinking about writing about. I'm actually working on a
Speaker 1: book right now. It's going to be a collection of
Speaker 1: my stories about aps in and out of the gambling world.
Speaker 1: It's being done for Hunting to Press. But I mean
Speaker 1: that's own by Anthony Curtis, who was a serious AP
Speaker 1: in his own right before I got into the publishing business.
Speaker 1: And um, I'm working on pretty that together now. So
Speaker 1: I'm excited about having this collection come out and be
Speaker 1: really cool. Uh, Michael, it's been a pleasure. I really
Speaker 1: appreciate the time. Uh you're working. Yeah, thank you so
Speaker 1: much to do it really kind and thank you very much.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much again. The books. Some of the books
Speaker 1: are a couple of books, Aces and Kings, Inside Stories
Speaker 1: and million dollar Strategies from Poker's greatest players if that
Speaker 1: interests you, as well as Chances are Adventures and Probability.
Speaker 1: But the New York Times, New York Post, Thrillist, Cigar Officiing, Dota, Wired,
Speaker 1: and Playboy. Thank you, Michael, Thank you, Bill. I appreciate
Speaker 1: you both. Thanks guys. Thanks guy. Michael Kaplan, the great
Speaker 1: Michael Kaplan right here on the numbers game here at
Speaker 1: Visa would love to have him back time and time again.
Speaker 1: Numbers Game live from Las Vegas, Nevada, only on the
Speaker 1: Vegas Stats and Information Network. Now live from the Visa
Speaker 1: in Studios. It's your host. Kill Alexander. Kill Alexander on
Speaker 1: a numbers game here Visa in Series XM channel two
Speaker 1: oh four. Check us out online at Visa in dot com.
Speaker 1: So a couple of nights ago, Tuesday night, I'm ready
Speaker 1: to go to bed. I'm like, great, I'm gonna get
Speaker 1: a full night sleep. And I just decide for five seconds,
Speaker 1: I'm just mess around my computer and for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: up pops on my screen the latest thirty for thirty
Speaker 1: podcast entitled A Queen of Sorts. And I go ahead
Speaker 1: and press play. And let's just say, my the prospects
Speaker 1: of a full night of sleep were done right there.
Speaker 1: And what I listened to and I've produced five podcast
Speaker 1: episodes or so myself, this is the greatest podcast episode
Speaker 1: of any format I've ever listened to. It. It is
Speaker 1: about Phil Ivy ten time World series of poker Bracelet
Speaker 1: Winter Time for second most of all time. Certain bet
Speaker 1: to be in the world, or I should say in
Speaker 1: the Poker Hall of Fame on the first ballot when
Speaker 1: the class of seventeen is announced later this month, and
Speaker 1: his partnership with a high stakes advantage player, mysterious young
Speaker 1: lady by the name of Chung Yan Son who is
Speaker 1: known as Kelly, and we will refer to as Kelly
Speaker 1: on this and them taking two different casinos, one in
Speaker 1: England one in New Jersey for six million dollars and
Speaker 1: the ensuing fight to collect that money and to adjudicate
Speaker 1: their method of getting that money. Queen of Sorts is
Speaker 1: what it's called. And with us on the phone, kind
Speaker 1: enough to join us, the producer and narrator of a
Speaker 1: Queen of Sorts and a Queen of Sorts herself, Rose
Speaker 1: evelet low Rose, Hi, that was very high praise. This
Speaker 1: was Rose. I am. Let me tell you something. I
Speaker 1: am not blowing smoke. This was so good I'll blow
Speaker 1: some more that. Uh. It's such a complicated subject as
Speaker 1: a storytelling vehicle. There's so much happening here, I was
Speaker 1: mentioning earlier. There is revenge, there are geniuses, there are
Speaker 1: millions of dollars, prison, racism, sexism, I said earlier. If
Speaker 1: it's as if the serial podcast that um was done
Speaker 1: so well by NPR and Oceans eleven had a baby.
Speaker 1: This is your podcast. Congratulations are I did read from
Speaker 1: the eleven script to like prep for writing the script
Speaker 1: for this one. So I'm glad that that came through. Well,
Speaker 1: let's let's start here. Uh, that's awesome that you read
Speaker 1: that because it shines through. Why don't you lay this
Speaker 1: out for us just in general? And then I have
Speaker 1: tons of questions throughout you, so if you could just
Speaker 1: give us the general story that we're referring to here. Yeah, So,
Speaker 1: um twelve Phil Ivy gets accused of cheating UM, and
Speaker 1: it comes out that he has sort of executed this
Speaker 1: elaborate baccarat play, and the play involved asking casino just
Speaker 1: to do a whole bunch of things, play a certain
Speaker 1: kind of game, play certain cards. He's a shuffle machine,
Speaker 1: and then most importantly turn the cards for him. Um.
Speaker 1: And there are these cases you know, he sues in London,
Speaker 1: New Jersey because you know they're to use him. It
Speaker 1: goes back and forth, and um. The story that doesn't
Speaker 1: really get told, the story that I tried to tell,
Speaker 1: and the piece is sort of about this mysterious mastermind
Speaker 1: who actually came up with this whole play and kind
Speaker 1: of helped still win all this money named Kelly. So
Speaker 1: the episode kind of goes from it sort of revolves
Speaker 1: around their wood play at Crockford's kind of explain how
Speaker 1: it we're but it also tells the backstory of Kelly,
Speaker 1: where she comes from, how she wound up coming up
Speaker 1: with this play. You know, at one point she was
Speaker 1: thrown in jail for debts to MGM. She was a
Speaker 1: generate gambler. She learns advantage place, she figures out this play.
Speaker 1: She hooked up with all Ivy and they just sort
Speaker 1: of want to spree and take down all these casinos.
Speaker 1: And then, as you said, there's a big question do
Speaker 1: they have to pay them? Is this cheating? You know,
Speaker 1: who's in the wrong, who's in the right. You know,
Speaker 1: they don't ever touch the cards, you know, they don't
Speaker 1: mark the cards. They just kind of convinced causinos to
Speaker 1: do things for them, And there's this big question that's
Speaker 1: sort of still open and that's still sort of happening
Speaker 1: now about whether or not they should get their money,
Speaker 1: whether or not what they did was cheating. So let's
Speaker 1: start at the beginning. Because you touched on it. There.
Speaker 1: Kelly a degenerate gambler, as you document in the podcast,
Speaker 1: and really as soon as I as soon as I
Speaker 1: listen to it, uh Rose. The next morning, the first
Speaker 1: person I texted was Chad Millman, and I said, Chad,
Speaker 1: you've got to come on this podcast, and he goes,
Speaker 1: I've got somebody better for you, the actual producer. You
Speaker 1: do a great job. Kelly's motivation. She's a degenerate gambler.
Speaker 1: She loses all kinds of money and casinos. Her father,
Speaker 1: who I don't know that we delve in on the
Speaker 1: podcast to his background, but he is an endless source
Speaker 1: of income for her, and she loses all this money.
Speaker 1: What motivates her to just change her life around and
Speaker 1: go after casinos? Yeah, so you know, her father owned
Speaker 1: a huge banking chain in China and then UM eventually
Speaker 1: went up shifting to Tim. But yes, he's sort of
Speaker 1: endlessly wealthy UM and was happy to kind of fund
Speaker 1: her gambling habit. So she goes and she gambles, and
Speaker 1: you know, she starts in Macau and then she comes
Speaker 1: over to vegas Um and she sort of isn't fully
Speaker 1: familiar with this is in vegas Um, including markers and
Speaker 1: she basically, you know, she says she loaned the marker
Speaker 1: to someone and they didn't pay it back. You know,
Speaker 1: who knows what really happened. Maybe she didn't pay it back,
Speaker 1: but someone didn't pay back one of her markers, and
Speaker 1: for about a hundred thousand dollars um. And MGM obviously
Speaker 1: would like their money back. And in Vega, you know,
Speaker 1: not paying passing a bat check, it lands from jail.
Speaker 1: So she's landed. She lands in jail for this debt.
Speaker 1: And to her, this is you know, ridiculous. She has
Speaker 1: lost you know, literally six figures at these casinos, and
Speaker 1: she's kind of like, you're gonna put me in jail
Speaker 1: for a hundred thousand dollars like this is chump change.
Speaker 1: And and she's like, let me just call my dad,
Speaker 1: we can whatever'll pay, we'll pay back um. And the
Speaker 1: casino obviously doesn't do that because that's not really helping work.
Speaker 1: And so she was she felt very wronged by this.
Speaker 1: She thought, you know, I've lost so much money to
Speaker 1: you guys, and you're gonna really put me in jail
Speaker 1: for a sort of small amount. And so she vowed
Speaker 1: when she was in jail that she was going to
Speaker 1: get her revenge on mgm uh you know she done. Um,
Speaker 1: she actually winds up being one of the very few
Speaker 1: people who goes from being a truly degenerate gambler losing
Speaker 1: six figures because, you know, to an advantage player and
Speaker 1: sort of coming up with these ingenious schemes that is really,
Speaker 1: by the way, you know, not a point to be
Speaker 1: glossed over. We think of degenerate gamblers as lifelong degenerate,
Speaker 1: and by degenerate there's sort of a connotation that that
Speaker 1: means they lose forever. She might be both, right, she
Speaker 1: might both be a degenerate gambler, but certainly the exception
Speaker 1: who turns around and does exact revenge in the most
Speaker 1: amazing way and explain to us what it is that
Speaker 1: she seizes on to do that. Yeah, So the key
Speaker 1: thing is she figures out how to edge sort. Now,
Speaker 1: edge sorting is not new, It's been used all over
Speaker 1: but basically the premise of edge sorting is that cards
Speaker 1: that have patterns that go all the way to the
Speaker 1: edges aren't always cut exactly evenly. So, Um, if you're
Speaker 1: looking at a card and it's a diamond pattern, you know,
Speaker 1: the diamond on one side of the card might be
Speaker 1: a full diamond and the diamond on the other side
Speaker 1: might be a half diamond because the machine doesn't quite
Speaker 1: cut that big sheet of cards exactly down the middle. Um.
Speaker 1: And if you can see this, you know I can't.
Speaker 1: I have terrible eyesight, but she has amazing eyesight and
Speaker 1: she can actually see these tiny, tiny differences. And once
Speaker 1: you can see them, you can do all kinds of things.
Speaker 1: People have edge sorted all kinds of games where you've
Speaker 1: turned the card so that you know the val the ones,
Speaker 1: the ones that you want have their sort of edge
Speaker 1: asymmetry facing one way and the valid unvaluable cards are
Speaker 1: turned the other way. Um, you can do all kinds
Speaker 1: of things that. This is sort of the classic card
Speaker 1: trick where you know a magician split splays at his
Speaker 1: deck for you. You pick a card, you look at it,
Speaker 1: and then you put it back in the deck, and
Speaker 1: then he somehow knows where your card is. UM. That
Speaker 1: works by this trick that if while you're looking at
Speaker 1: your card, the magician is going to rotate their deck
Speaker 1: and he's already lined up all the cards in one way,
Speaker 1: so when you put your card back in he's rotated
Speaker 1: his a hundred and eighty degrees and yours is the
Speaker 1: only one that's facing the opposite direction. Um, that's how Sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm going to ruin magic tricks spoiler alert, Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: but that's that's what this is. So she figured out
Speaker 1: edge sorting. Now that the truly genius thing that she
Speaker 1: did isn't just the edge sorting. Edge sorting is something
Speaker 1: that you know, it's hard to do, but people do it.
Speaker 1: People can do it. What she feared out was actually
Speaker 1: how to execute an edge sorting play without ever touching
Speaker 1: the cards. She actually convinced the dealers to turn the
Speaker 1: cards for her, which is really I think the true
Speaker 1: insane thing about this this is that is really then
Speaker 1: we're going to get to this momentarily, because it is
Speaker 1: one thing to have the skill. It is another thing,
Speaker 1: uh entirely that casinos and big time casinos let this
Speaker 1: happen in the way they did before we get to that.
Speaker 1: How So she's winning money now, so she's exacting her revenge.
Speaker 1: She's out of jail. By the way, how long did
Speaker 1: she stay in jail? Rose About three weeks? About three weeks? Okay,
Speaker 1: that's that's three weeks. Too many as she seen uh
Speaker 1: and she got She exacts her revenge. She studies, she
Speaker 1: uses a magnifying class. She's going after this stuff and
Speaker 1: she starts winning money from all these casinos. How is
Speaker 1: it that she hooks up with Phil hot with Phil Ivy?
Speaker 1: And why is it that she hooks up with Phil Ivy? Yeah? So, um,
Speaker 1: she goes and she plays. You know, for us probably
Speaker 1: I don't know how what your bank bull is like.
Speaker 1: But for me, she's winning a lot of money in
Speaker 1: five hundred thousand and eight hundred thousand, a million and
Speaker 1: a half at these various in Las Vegas. Um and
Speaker 1: you know, casino Alan skuys start to note, right, they
Speaker 1: start to say, hey, wait a minute, what's going on now?
Speaker 1: They don't know it's free yet. She's playing with other whales.
Speaker 1: She's playing with mostly um whales from Asia, Asian guys
Speaker 1: who come over and find her. Many of them live
Speaker 1: in l A. And they start writing up her play
Speaker 1: in these surveillance newsletters. They say, hey, you know, watch
Speaker 1: out for this Asian team. They're doing this turning play.
Speaker 1: You know. They kind of try to get the word
Speaker 1: out among casinos surveillance and say, hey, you know, just
Speaker 1: just you guys know this is happening. UM. Of course,
Speaker 1: a lot of advantage players read those newsletters because they
Speaker 1: want to know what casino surveillance guys are talking about. UM.
Speaker 1: And one guy who she had actually already known, this
Speaker 1: guy named Eddie UM. She she had already kind of
Speaker 1: been working with him. He had been teaching her a
Speaker 1: little bit of advantage played. He actually read about this
Speaker 1: play in these news letters and he knew exactly who
Speaker 1: it was. He knew this had to be Ellie. And
Speaker 1: so he called her and he said, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: I read about this play. You know was that you?
Speaker 1: And she initially tries to kind of play a cool
Speaker 1: said don't know what I mean. She doesn't want him
Speaker 1: to know UM and he's like, no, no, it's it's you.
Speaker 1: It's got to be you. UM. And so Eddie is
Speaker 1: actually the one who introduced her to fill Um and
Speaker 1: he flies her down to Australia. UM. They fly down
Speaker 1: where Phil's playing poker. And this is actually a story
Speaker 1: that didn't make it into the episode, but I think
Speaker 1: it is really funny. They go down there, Eddie don't
Speaker 1: has a rapport with Phil, he knows him, and he
Speaker 1: says Hey, I got this barker, I'll play. Phil says
Speaker 1: yes to trying it, which I think is kind of
Speaker 1: amazing that he's willing to sort of trust this random
Speaker 1: woman who's never met to do this play That sounds
Speaker 1: completely preposterous, but they do. They play it, but their
Speaker 1: cards that Kelly has never seen before, so she doesn't
Speaker 1: know how to she can't identify them, and so she
Speaker 1: actually loses a bunch of his money, like millions of dollars,
Speaker 1: and Phil is rightfully kind of piste off about it.
Speaker 1: You know, he's like, what are you guys hustling me?
Speaker 1: Like what is this? You know, he thinks that he's
Speaker 1: just been conned, and they're like, no, no, no no, it's
Speaker 1: not it's not that. And so she winds up um
Speaker 1: spending all night memorizing these cards. They go back the
Speaker 1: next day. She's giving one more chances, okay, and she
Speaker 1: wins him the money back and more, and so then
Speaker 1: you know, from there there a team and they sort
Speaker 1: of hit all kinds of casinos. They actually do is
Speaker 1: play in more than just sort of the New Jersey
Speaker 1: and London, cause you know, but those are the two
Speaker 1: that have kind of taking action many of these have
Speaker 1: paid them out, you know, and they've made lots of
Speaker 1: money in this play. When we come back and Rose,
Speaker 1: if you will just hang out with us for one
Speaker 1: more semi because this is too good. I want to
Speaker 1: get into the specifics of what she did and what
Speaker 1: Phil and her both did, I should say at Crockford's
Speaker 1: in London, and just how specific it had to be
Speaker 1: for them to pull this off, what Crockford's acquiesced too,
Speaker 1: and really just get your take on the matter. How
Speaker 1: you feel about this in the end. Is it cheating
Speaker 1: in your opinion? Is it not? I think I know
Speaker 1: how most of our listeners feel about it. Rose, producer
Speaker 1: and narrator of the thirty for thirty podcast, A Queen
Speaker 1: of Sorts of Delight Back in a Moment at vis
Speaker 1: It's a numbers game live from Las Vegas, Nevada, only
Speaker 1: on the Vegas Stats and Information Network Now live from
Speaker 1: the vs in Studios. It's your host, Kill Alexander Jill
Speaker 1: Alexander once again on a numbers game on the phone
Speaker 1: with the producer and narrator of the latest thirty for
Speaker 1: thirty podcast entitled A Queen of Sorts phil Ivy, All
Speaker 1: about Phil Ivy and really more so about phil Ivey,
Speaker 1: sort of the the tangential guy here almost he's just
Speaker 1: a vehicle. Really, it's about a mysterious young lady who
Speaker 1: is exacting revenge on the casinos, not only in Nevada
Speaker 1: but worldwide. As it turns out, Chunyan Son. She is
Speaker 1: known as Kelly. I am not spoiling anything. By the way,
Speaker 1: folks listening were like, oh, you're giving away the whole bodcast. No,
Speaker 1: trust me, listen to the podcast. It is done so well. Uh,
Speaker 1: Kelly herself is in that as well, Uh Chad Millman,
Speaker 1: and done so eloquently and beautifully by Rose Eve left Rose.
Speaker 1: Let's pick it up then, so she hooks up Kelly
Speaker 1: does with phil Ivy. This is the whale of all whales.
Speaker 1: So it's one thing to have whales. Now you're talking
Speaker 1: about someone who can take this to a whole another level.
Speaker 1: And the two of them, after that initial snap, who
Speaker 1: that their for their first experience doing that, she proves
Speaker 1: to feel that she can get this done at Mini
Speaker 1: Bakara tell us what happens at Crockford's. Yeah, so you
Speaker 1: fill wires a million dollars or a million patterns, I suppose,
Speaker 1: and that helps, right, Initially they're on the very very beginning. Um.
Speaker 1: But basically they walk in and you know, they start
Speaker 1: to make requests. So this play hinges on a series
Speaker 1: of requests, and if any of them go wrong, the
Speaker 1: entire play sort of crumbles beneath them. What they want
Speaker 1: is they want to play Mini Baker Up. So they
Speaker 1: want a game where they don't touch the cards. Um,
Speaker 1: they want a shuffle machine because they want to make
Speaker 1: sure that there's no turn in the shuffle. Um, they
Speaker 1: want a specific set of cards. You know, they don't
Speaker 1: and they do this all very subtly. You know, they
Speaker 1: don't walk in and say like, all right, here's what
Speaker 1: I need. You know, I need these cars that I
Speaker 1: can read, I need this, this, this. They sort of
Speaker 1: play up this whole stick, right. They pretend to be
Speaker 1: super superstitious. You know, they're referring to lucky hats and
Speaker 1: lucky cards and lucky dealers. You know, at one point, um,
Speaker 1: still Ivy, if you watch the surveillance footage, pretends like
Speaker 1: he doesn't know where to put the chips on the table,
Speaker 1: which is, I mean to me, kind of hilarious because
Speaker 1: phil Ivy definitely not to interrupt you. But I guess
Speaker 1: that's what's one thing, and there's that there's they ask
Speaker 1: for a Mandarin or Cantonese I believe speaking dealer as well.
Speaker 1: It's phil Ivy. How is it Crockford's has to know
Speaker 1: who phil Ivy is? How is it that they acquiesced
Speaker 1: to every single one of these demands? I mean, that's
Speaker 1: the really wild thing, right, you know, it is one
Speaker 1: of those things where once you lift everything to somebody,
Speaker 1: like we're doing, it's sort of so obvious, but this
Speaker 1: is a over the course of hours. Um. It's also
Speaker 1: you know, they're losing. It takes a lot of time
Speaker 1: and money to set this play up, so as they're
Speaker 1: doing it, they're not winning money, you know, so they
Speaker 1: must think like, okay, well this must be fine. And
Speaker 1: also it's really hard to say notice theil ivey um.
Speaker 1: I think that that's like a huge element of this,
Speaker 1: you know. And yes, he's a bank roll, but he's
Speaker 1: also kind of the sort of powerful guy in the
Speaker 1: room that if you're a dealer and you tell phil Ivy, no,
Speaker 1: he can't have what he wants and he says, all right,
Speaker 1: I'm leaving. You're going to get in trouble for that.
Speaker 1: You know. That's like somebody who's gonna ask you, hey,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, you know what happened to this millionaire
Speaker 1: high roller that we just had in this room? And
Speaker 1: you have to say, well, I wouldn't let him have
Speaker 1: the thing he wanted to be left. You know, no
Speaker 1: one wants to be the dealer um. And so there's
Speaker 1: there's that element too, you know. And there's also an
Speaker 1: element of Phil has I think, in a very genius way,
Speaker 1: cultivated this reputation UM as someone who will lose money
Speaker 1: at craps at baccarat. He sort of cultivated this image
Speaker 1: that if he's not playing poker, he's just playing for fun,
Speaker 1: he's just losing money. I don't think that that's what's
Speaker 1: going on um And I think the casinos are foolish
Speaker 1: to think that that's what's going on. But they do
Speaker 1: think that when he walks in and he's not playing poker,
Speaker 1: he's just there to have a good time. They don't.
Speaker 1: They would never think that, oh, maybe he's doing you know,
Speaker 1: maybe he's got to play um And and Phil has
Speaker 1: done a really really spectacular job of cultivating that image
Speaker 1: of coming in and making it seem like he'll just drop,
Speaker 1: you know, half a million dollars or a million dollars
Speaker 1: on something like that. Um, you know, there's lots of
Speaker 1: things other things going on there. But you know, when
Speaker 1: you read through the transcripts from court, he says at
Speaker 1: Crockford's the London casino, it's very clear that the casino
Speaker 1: really thought they were just there for a casual game.
Speaker 1: They were just there to kind of have fun. So
Speaker 1: when you take all of those things together, you wind
Speaker 1: up in a situation where not only is it difficult
Speaker 1: to say no, but there doesn't seem to be an
Speaker 1: obvious reason. You know, they meet these requests out over hours.
Speaker 1: They're losing money. You know, why would there be anything suspicious.
Speaker 1: It's only suspicious after they start to win a ridiculous
Speaker 1: amount of money and then they start to think, oh,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, what has happened. Uh, it's it's incredible. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, and even one of the demands from the
Speaker 1: podcast that was that was so unbelievable as they took
Speaker 1: a break. Finally they want two million dollars over a
Speaker 1: long long ish period of time, based on the total
Speaker 1: amount of time they were and they said, we're going
Speaker 1: to take a break, but we want the same deck, cards,
Speaker 1: same dealer, everything when we come back. And that's when
Speaker 1: they went to town over the next three hours when
Speaker 1: they returned. But that's that's the most amazing with oh yeah, still, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can have all of this. That's great. I know
Speaker 1: it's Phil Livy, but it is interesting what you said
Speaker 1: there rose because that human element, it's Phil Ivy. And
Speaker 1: then even though there's these casino you know, a casino
Speaker 1: ought to know better, there's this thing where you just
Speaker 1: don't want to upset a guy like Phil Ivy. And
Speaker 1: it is true. You know, I think Phil Ivy a
Speaker 1: lot of poker players are known as poor sports bettors,
Speaker 1: for instance, and so the fact that he's cultivated that image,
Speaker 1: what a scheme, you know, it's amazing to think about that.
Speaker 1: So so finally Crockford's you know, they do change the cards.
Speaker 1: That's when Phil and Kelly walk out. Phil thinks and
Speaker 1: Kelly does that they're going to get the money, only
Speaker 1: to find out later Crockfords looks at surveillance footage, one
Speaker 1: of the guys discovers the grandfather trick that you were
Speaker 1: talking about before. Oh, they must why would they want
Speaker 1: the cards? Dealt in that certain way, and Crockford says
Speaker 1: they're not giving phil Ivy the money. Borgata in Atlantic
Speaker 1: City was the other casino where they did this over
Speaker 1: four different occasions. Borgata did pay them and now they
Speaker 1: want their money back, right yes, which to me is
Speaker 1: like an extra layer of absurdity are where It's like
Speaker 1: it's one thing to say, you know, we're not going
Speaker 1: to cash you out, it's another thing to say, actually,
Speaker 1: you came here four times, did this play four times?
Speaker 1: We didn't even realize it until Crockford figured it out,
Speaker 1: and now we want you to pay us back. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: So now the one thing that didn't come through in
Speaker 1: the podcast, and I know that you probably didn't want
Speaker 1: to inject yourself into this, but how do you feel
Speaker 1: about this? How do you feel cheating to you or hey, look,
Speaker 1: casinos you have the advantage play all the time. This
Speaker 1: is just making the advantage, by the way to the
Speaker 1: tune of a six percent advantage in favor of the
Speaker 1: card player when they do this. How do you feel
Speaker 1: about it? It's funny, you know. I went into the
Speaker 1: I went into reporting this and I tried to keep
Speaker 1: it really open mind. I was like, you know, I
Speaker 1: have my bias going in and I just want to
Speaker 1: see what people say who can convince me. And in
Speaker 1: reporting I kind of oscillated a little bit back and forth,
Speaker 1: but I eventually come down on the side of of
Speaker 1: not cheating. You know, they never touched the cards. The
Speaker 1: casino could have said no at any point. If they
Speaker 1: had said no to any of the seven or eight
Speaker 1: requests that they made, the whole thing would have ended. Um.
Speaker 1: I think that there is an element, you know, and
Speaker 1: I this is a terrible analogy, but um, if you
Speaker 1: go into a store and something's marked the wrong price
Speaker 1: and you know it's kind of supposed to be more expensive,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna be like, oh, excuse me, I think
Speaker 1: this is the wrong price. You know, you're gonna you're
Speaker 1: gonna take the price that it is. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: a little different. It's more like conning the checkout guy
Speaker 1: to like ring you up at the wrong price. But
Speaker 1: even that, you know, if someone gives you a deal
Speaker 1: at the checkout for whatever reason, I mean, is that stealing?
Speaker 1: You know, Like I feel like to me, you know,
Speaker 1: there is a hard line between a casino said yes
Speaker 1: to everything. You know, it's not like they did something
Speaker 1: that the casino didn't know they were doing. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not like they marked the cards. It's not like
Speaker 1: they used information that casino didn't have. Casino could have
Speaker 1: done a ton of different things to stop this. They
Speaker 1: could have said no, or they could have used cards
Speaker 1: that weren't cut improperly, or they could have introduced a
Speaker 1: turn in the shuffle. I mean, there's so many ways
Speaker 1: becauseino could have prevented this. That to me, you know,
Speaker 1: I think you get hit, you you take it, and
Speaker 1: you say, okay, you know what you got us, and
Speaker 1: you fix your game. And I think that's just sort
Speaker 1: of how it should be. Because if you if you
Speaker 1: say this is cheating, then that's also a can of worms. Right.
Speaker 1: You end up in these conversations about is card counting cheating?
Speaker 1: If a dealer is drunk and showing you the whole card,
Speaker 1: is that now cheating? You know? How do you how
Speaker 1: do you deal with that? It's it's uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I think everybody in this room and everybody listening agrees
Speaker 1: with you because we are of that ilk that we
Speaker 1: don't believe it to be cheating. Um. Vinny Malayula, by
Speaker 1: the way, a gentleman sitting alongside who is the gone
Speaker 1: gaming odds maker in a house here at at at
Speaker 1: the South Point Hotel casino. He his head is ready
Speaker 1: to explode because he can't believe the casino let them
Speaker 1: do this. Sequentially, I have to be Honestum and Rose
Speaker 1: hit on a key point. They asked, and the casino agreed.
Speaker 1: And not only that, they don't min they don't even
Speaker 1: touch the car. They don't touch. So at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, here's what happens. You Sharper sharp Filiva
Speaker 1: is sharp Sharper's calculating and everything he does. The first
Speaker 1: that's the first. The second thing is if there are
Speaker 1: certain requests, they have to be known ahead of time,
Speaker 1: and you have that conversation in advance, not as you go.
Speaker 1: At Crockford's vetti, well we're talking to Rose Eva left,
Speaker 1: the producer of a coat of sorts. Rose, the I
Speaker 1: guess letting you go with this. The other really key
Speaker 1: cog to all this, and maybe we sort of buried
Speaker 1: the headline is this is less about Phil than it
Speaker 1: is about Kelly. And there is a healthy dash of
Speaker 1: racism and sexism in this, isn't there? Yeah? Yeah, right?
Speaker 1: And that's you know, we can ask how do they
Speaker 1: get away with this? How did they get away with this?
Speaker 1: That's the big question, right you know, whether or not
Speaker 1: you think it's is almost the secondary question. The first
Speaker 1: question is how did they get away with this? And
Speaker 1: the answer in a lot of ways is, you know,
Speaker 1: we talked about Phil being hard to say know to,
Speaker 1: but it's also that he's with this woman who no
Speaker 1: one knows who she is, and casino and all the
Speaker 1: casino executives I talked to and all the surveillance guys
Speaker 1: I talked to agreed, said, you know, when an Asian
Speaker 1: woman walks into their casino, they just, oh, don't worry
Speaker 1: about it. You know, they would never have thought that
Speaker 1: she was going to be dangerous. They think that women
Speaker 1: aren't really sharp gamblers. They think, particularly that Asians are
Speaker 1: really superstitious and that they're sort of suckers. And Kelly
Speaker 1: knows that and she played that up to her advantage,
Speaker 1: and that sort of when we talk about how did
Speaker 1: they get the dealer to say yes to this, that's
Speaker 1: a huge element too, because they look at her and
Speaker 1: they think, I'm sure she's just kind of an idiot.
Speaker 1: You know, they don't think that she's you know, in
Speaker 1: her words, you don't have any idea that she could
Speaker 1: banger up their casino. You know, they don't think that
Speaker 1: she's dangerous. And you know she's still up there. She
Speaker 1: still plays because because you know, still haven't quite caught on.
Speaker 1: They all think that Phil is the masterminded, Bill is
Speaker 1: the guy they have to watch out for. And you know,
Speaker 1: when I want to visit Kelly, a couple of times
Speaker 1: in Vegas, she was just coming back from trips or
Speaker 1: she was still out there. She's still gambling, she's still
Speaker 1: running these plays. Kelly could be in this casino right now.
Speaker 1: Rose for all for all, Yeah, exactly, It's amazing. Rose
Speaker 1: Evil Left the producer and the narrator of the latest
Speaker 1: thirty for thirty podcast. It's called The Queen of Sorts
Speaker 1: about this young lady Kelly and phil Ivy doing their
Speaker 1: thing and phil Ivy and Kelly appealing London Court ruled
Speaker 1: in favor of Crockford's phil Ivy appealing that ruling trying
Speaker 1: to get their money, uh from that particular escapade. Rose
Speaker 1: really appreciate aid it all the success all congratulations to you,
Speaker 1: a Queen of sorts. Everybody should check it out. Congratulations
Speaker 1: to you, Thank you, thanks for having me. Left from
Speaker 1: ESPN thirty for thirty. You gotta listen to this, Benny,
Speaker 1: you will die. I've been following a story. I have
Speaker 1: not heard the podcast yet, but it's uh, it's very
Speaker 1: very interesting, very intreating,