WEBVTT - Beating the Book: Advantage Play Stories 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:11.800 Check it down man, Now down there. It's the Meeting 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:15.600 the Book podcast, Gil Alexander. Hope you and your family 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:19.320 are staying safe during the global pandemic. Today on the 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:24.400 podcast Advantage Play. First, Michael Kaplan, who is the author 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:28.040 of several books and has written a myriad of gambling 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:32.760 pieces for publications like The New York Times, New York Post, Cigarficionado, 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:37.080 and Thrillists, among others, joins me and Bill Krackenburger to 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.120 talk about some of the stories that he's covered, including 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:44.520 his latest about the Hollywood poker game that Toby McGuire 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:46.840 was a part of. We'll get into that with Michael, 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:49.360 followed by an interview I did a couple of years 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:53.720 ago that we touched upon with Michael. This time, Rose 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:57.240 Eveless joins me. Rose even Lef was the producer of 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:00.360 the thirty for thirty called a Queen of Sort. Has 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:04.560 everything to do with Phil Ivy and his mysterious Asian 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:08.600 counterpart who goes by the name of Kelly. Fascinating stories 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:12.160 a little different. Hope you enjoy it. Advantage Play. On 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:20.360 today's Beating the Book podcast, It's a numbers game with 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:26.200 your host, Jil Alexander wants to believe in Adams. Yes 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:29.360 I am. It is Gill Alexander live from San Francisco. 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:32.440 Good morning to you, serious except Channel two four, Visa 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:35.319 dot Com, the Visa app, Fubo, Slang Game plus on 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:39.760 down the line, a real treat. First of all, this gentleman, uh, 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:43.520 Bill Crackenburger is always on the show on Thursdays, but 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.839 has decided to sort of hook us up once again 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:49.720 by my request, with the gentleman who I really want 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.480 to talk to, So Billy. First of all, good morning 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:56.480 to you. Good morning. Uh. The gentleman that we are 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:01.639 referring to is Michael Kaplan. He uh has written four books, um, 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:04.680 a couple of which are about gambling, All Sensible Chances, 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.520 Our Adventures and probability aces and King's inside stories and 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:13.560 million dollar strategies from Poker's greatest players, and perhaps more prominently, 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:17.320 I don't know more, Uh, you know where people recognize him, 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:21.959 for I think greatly so, perhaps more than the books themselves, 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.760 are pieces that he's written about gambling and about advantage 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.760 place specifically uh in The New York Times, The New 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:33.080 York Post, Thrillist, Cigar Aficionado, Wired, and Playboy, among the 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:37.000 publications we bring him in now courtesy of Bill Crackerburger. 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:39.280 It is Michael Kaplan. Good morning to you, Michael, and 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:42.400 thank you for making the time. Sir, hey man, how 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.320 are you. It's it's great to be on doing very well. 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:47.640 And I didn't realize you had a Twitter at Kaplan Words. 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:50.200 I searched for it desperately, So I'm glad you're on 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.520 at Kaplan Words. That's me. I'm not. I'm not as 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:55.640 active on it as I might say in two busy 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:58.480 writing stories, but you know, I try. I try to 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.680 post on that when I can, first of before I 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:03.079 get into some of the things I want to ask 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:06.080 you about, because there is Honestly, I don't know that 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.840 there's a writer who has who has really had this 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:12.040 great of a chance to talk to as many advantage 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.239 players as you have over the course of your career. 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:19.600 But how did you two meet? You? You and Bill Michael? Well, 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.160 we met. We met through a sports better we both 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:27.520 know in New York. That's that's my recollection, Um, Bill, right, Yeah, 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.560 we we met through We we met through a sports 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:34.960 better that we're both acquainted with. I think remember having 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:37.720 iced tea at an outdoor I remember sitting in being 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.160 in the East Village with you and this other gentleman. 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:44.080 We're having iced tea at a at a cafe in 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:47.800 in in the East Village in New York City. Wow, yeah, 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.120 I guess. So you know we've we've been uh, we've 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.000 been friends so long I actually forgot, but yeah, it 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:55.240 was the initials are j M. I don't know. I 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:57.800 don't know how much you want your name splattered around 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.920 that's all you want to say. Um, yeah, I think 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.560 I think that. I think, uh, I think that's exactly 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.280 how we met. I know, we we ate over and Carol, 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:15.800 Carol Varden's over in uh in the Italian Joy Yeah, yeah, 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:18.400 wow you remember? Good? But yeah, I think that's what 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.960 I meant. And and I've been fascinated with Michael for 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:24.400 years because there's not that many times you have an 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:28.080 opportunity to be with a journalist that knows both sides 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.880 of the counter. Not so sports betting. But Michael has 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:35.719 been around advantage gambling for a long time himself. Uh, 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:37.400 I know, we we we've been to a couple of 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:41.960 casinos ourself, and uh, we we've I'll just say this 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:46.279 without spoiling some things. Michael knows a lot of things. 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:50.200 He's a sharp guy himself, so it's fascinating that thank you, 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:55.160 thank you, thanks for being on, Michael. Michael, that's a lot. 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:58.200 That's a lot coming from Bill, because I mean Bill 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:02.080 is extremely sharp. So I a pre shake that thank you, Oh, Michael. 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:05.920 I spent I spent the weekend reading just about as 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.440 much as I could from you over time. The m 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:14.160 I T. Blackjack Team, Um, James gross Gen, Phil Ivy 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:18.640 and Kelly, the mysterious uh Asian counterparts. She really she 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:25.200 was the head of the Bakara global attack on casinos. 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:27.640 I've actually had rose Eva Lef on the show before 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:31.159 she produced the ESPN thirty for thirty doc about it. Um, 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:35.560 you've written about characters like Ms Brown, Edward, Tiger, Mike Davis, 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:39.280 Don Johnson. Uh. I guess the question that that is 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.560 begged here is of all of the characters that you've 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:45.040 run into all of the years and written about, and 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.280 maybe this is an impossible question answer, so maybe I 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:50.119 should apologize in advance. But of all of them, what's 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:57.159 the single most incredible when you think about all of them? Um, 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:01.240 good question. I mean Tiger Mike was incredibly interesting, but 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:03.080 I mean, I will tell you like probably the most. 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.840 And these guys are advantaged players, but not in casinos. 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:09.479 I did a story years ago for Wired about these 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.880 two Arab brothers. They live in this place called Farkassum. 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.080 It's sort of like and you know, a sort of 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.440 Arab enclave, um, not that far from Tel Aviv. And 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:24.720 these guys basically ran circles around the Israeli telephone company. 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:29.200 They were phone hackers, and they were blind, and um, 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:33.039 these guys are insane advantaged players at at phone hacking, 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.839 which was incredibly interesting to make. Another one that that 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.440 I was really into, which is more gambling related. I 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:44.599 did a story about these computer teams that made apparently, 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.200 I mean you know that they made over a billion dollars, 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.040 you know, beating horse racing in Hong Kong. They came 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.320 up with a computer system to model racing and turn 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.160 off that Hong Kong was the ideal place to do 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:58.480 that in because it's a small pool of horses, a 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:02.320 small pool of jockeys, and they don't it's not like 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:04.000 you know, all of a sudden, some new horse and 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:06.359 and writer are going to come in from out of nowhere. 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.480 And I mean, these guys made an awful lot of money, 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:12.200 and it was really fascinating spending some time with them. 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:14.200 So I mean those are two that I found really 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:17.880 really interested. Is there a common thread, I mean among 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.080 all of these folks or or are they all unique 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.400 in their own way? Or is there something Is there 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:25.760 a brush where you can paint a broad stroke over 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.960 all of them. I think there are people who kind 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:32.800 of are pretty obsessed with figuring out how to beat something, 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.840 but like, you know, obsessed in a way that you know, 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.920 normal people would not be. I mean, you know, a 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.680 guy like James Gross Jean, I mean that guy, if 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:45.480 he wants to figure out a game, I mean he'll 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:49.240 be up night and day running computer simulations and figuring 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.040 out how to He'll know the game better than the 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.160 person who created the game. And I mean, you know 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:58.520 that like that, and I think that is a common threat. 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:00.720 I think there's a sort of upset sh and that 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:04.440 certain people develop with you know, beating these games. I 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:10.680 mean obviously it's you know, financially rewarding, but it also 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:12.800 is a lot of work. Like I mean, you know 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:14.680 there's that say, you know it's an easy you know, 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:17.760 you know, it's a hard way to make an easy living. 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:21.440 And I mean that's definitely. Um I think applies to 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.160 the most successful of these a p s is that 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.320 they work so hard at it and they just don't 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.480 give up, and it's like, you know, it becomes you know, 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:34.120 kind of their life and it's it's interesting. I mean, 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:38.200 they have an amazing work ethics, they're incredibly bright, and 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:40.760 they can kind of think in ways that other people 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.960 aren't thinking, you know, and it's, um, it's yeah, it's 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:47.520 really it's a really interesting world. And I feel privileged 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.160 that I've been privy to it. And I mean and 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:52.439 I played on a pretty big card counting team for 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:55.840 a while and I have a t V PID for 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.560 a pretty big casino play that kind of dropped into 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:01.960 my last So I've been around it like as a 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.800 reporter and you know, to some degree as a practitioner. 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.000 And it's it's really interesting. Do you still have an 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:11.640 itch to be a practitioner or you or are those 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.960 days behind you? Well, if the right opportunity exactly let's 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.440 put it that way, if the right opportunity presented itself, 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:19.200 I would do it. I Mean it's one of these 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:21.920 things where like you know, card counting is something that 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:24.520 people think, oh, yeah, it's like a license to print money, 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.520 and I will tell you it definitely is not. I mean, 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:30.400 it's extremely volatile, and yeah you can make money doing it, 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:32.520 but hey, it's a lot of work. It's very volatile. 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:34.640 You need to put it enough hours to iron out 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.880 the variants. Um, it's really the James Grosten called me 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:40.280 and said he needs somebody to be p I would say, Okay, 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:43.679 where do I beat you? So, yeah, if the right 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:48.079 opportunity came came about, I would. I would definitely do it. Well, 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.839 James Grostan, who you wrote I'm sure more than once about, 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:53.560 but but extensively. The article that I that I focused 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.160 in on was the one in Oklahoma, Whereas again you 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:58.400 mentioned he sleeps maybe two or three hours a night, 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:00.920 so he's out working everybody to try to figure out 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.200 how to beat the game. But just a fascinating story. 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.760 And I think if Grocer calls any of us, we 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.520 probably pick up the phone and be part of the 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:12.079 advantage play. We're talking to Michael Kaplan, who has written 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.000 so many pieces about advantage players. By the way, when 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:17.600 he says a P S that's what he's referring to. UM, 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.920 at kaplan words on Twitter. Bill, you were I hope 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.800 I'm not speaking out of school here. You were instrumental 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.120 in one of at least one of Michael's articles in 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:29.480 terms of just sort of hooking him up with folks. 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:32.440 Oh yeah, oh yeah, Michael will call me from time 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:36.080 to time and ask me some questions or um, I 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:39.000 actually hooked him up with Eddie Teams, right, Michael? Is 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:43.320 that all right? That is true? That is true. We met, um, 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:45.280 you know. I mean the funny thing is you and 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:48.360 I played in a black jack torn I don't know 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:49.920 if you remember this or not. We played in a 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:55.040 black jack tournament at um Um what is it? The 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:59.240 treasure island and between and between between hand you know, 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:02.480 between rounds, we went and we went to have some 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:04.640 eggs or something, you know, in the in the cafe there, 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:07.679 and um and Eddie was in there and you know, 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:11.040 to use your to use your Lingno, I mean, I 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:13.240 had no idea who the guy was. You go, this 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:15.520 guy is the sharpest of the shark. That was what 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:17.400 you said to me. And you know he was sitting 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:21.079 there with Stanford Wong's book. You know, everybody else is 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.000 just you know, kind of relaxing, having breakfast, just you know, 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.920 like I'm not saying whatever happens happens, but you know, 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:29.079 like we're there to play. And that was that this 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.560 guy was like brushing up on stuff. And you know, 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:34.160 every other page had you know, a post it note 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.360 with notes in it. I mean, listen, and that's that's 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:39.520 what I'm talking about when I say about guys who 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.679 are who are aps and like taking very very seriously. 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.600 I mean, you know, this guy was there to win money. 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:47.960 I mean we all were, but you know, not to 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.920 the degree that he was. And it's, um, it's it's 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:58.079 it's it's interesting, yeah, sharps, um sorry, go. He is 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:00.960 one of the sharpest sharps. And and I was actually 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:05.320 shocked that he was, uh that that he actually would 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:09.080 would go on and want to talk about something. But 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.920 I asked him, and uh, you know a lot of 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:17.199 these guys, you have to understand, they've been so super genius, 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:21.200 so super boxed up. They're the guys that were made 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.920 fun of their whole lives while they were younger. They 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:26.440 were the smaller people in school. They were the ones 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.200 that would do the extra credit. They would do the 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:30.840 you know, maybe even the Southern and teaching the students. 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.920 So these kind of guys have been kind of shut 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:39.760 ins um and their their whole life. And now that 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:44.080 advantage gambling is talked about a little bit, well it's 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:47.079 now maybe almost like it's almost like you're coming out 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.800 of the closet for you could talk to people about 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.199 being an advantage gambler now, just like Michael was so 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:55.880 quick to do there, which I'm shocked but I'm glad 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.120 he did it about being a card counter. And black 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.000 Jack's absolutely how I know Michael one of the reasons 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.400 I think I know about Michael. But so these type 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:06.880 of guys, as we noticed with even are even the 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:10.080 Visa network, Um, they'll pop out once in a while. 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.480 They're looking for a little more arriety now because hey, 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.240 their whole lives. They were kind of the ones that really, uh, 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:20.000 their their brain was hurting. It was so painful because 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:23.360 they couldn't really tell anyone, They couldn't really express their 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:26.480 feelings of people because no one really understood or even 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:30.360 wanted to understand. However, with a network like Visa or 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.400 just any kind of social media, these people out now 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:35.880 have a have a voice, They have somewhere they can talk, 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:40.160 so introduced them to Michael. Michael wrote the greatest piece 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:44.920 in Cigar for Grnado on Eddie and whatever Eddie's doing there, 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:48.080 if you see him in the casino doing something, you 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.520 can guarantee there's an advantage to it. So great story. 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.960 It's available on the internet. And okay, go affack to you. 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:57.280 No no no no, But you know, Eddie is one of 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.080 these guys, and we'll sort of get background on some 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:00.439 of these stories. But Edie was one of these guys 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:02.800 who did lots of things. But but along the lines 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:06.719 of what you were saying, Bill, Um, Michael, it's it's 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.360 an interesting point that Bill makes that this is advantage play, 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:12.720 and so by nature of advantage play, you know, it 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.520 kind of behooves those aps to sort of keep their 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:19.560 mouth shut. But there is this sort of human conflict. Uh. 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.800 And Bill called it notoriety that that's being sought. And 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.160 you've written about at least one or two of these 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.120 guys who in the end, when they say, would you've 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:29.400 done anything differently, they're like, yeah, I probably wouldn't have 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:34.240 talked as much. It's probably is an element to that. 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.560 I mean, it's interesting to me, like, you know, doing 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:39.320 this sort of thing. It's one of the few things 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:41.320 that you know, you get that's it's not you know, 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.080 it's one of the few things you can do that legal. 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.280 You get very very good at it, and it's your 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.160 it's in your interest that that when you're in the 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.120 place where you do this thing, that nobody knows what 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.680 you're actually doing, even though it's completely it's you know, 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:59.200 obviously it's completely legal. I mean, it's um, it's just 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.920 it's a pretty it's a pretty interesting um economy. It's 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.880 like an interesting sort of shadow world that these guys 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.400 um came to operate and and um, you know, I 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.680 mean I was at an event. This is an event 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.720 that takes place each year called the Blackjack Ball, and 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.960 it's a it's a you know, it's this gathering of 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.840 people who you know beat casino games. Is a sort 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.040 of secret gathering. May have written about it because I'm 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.120 not like speaking out of school about it, but it 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.000 definitely is one of these things where like you will 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:30.520 not see photos from there. I was at a dinner 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:32.240 the night before and there were a bunch of people 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.280 and um, somebody tell you, let's get a photo, and 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.080 you know, one of these you know kind of really 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.200 high end practitioners goes no, and you know, this person 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:42.480 could just ducked away and there was no way in 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:44.600 hell they were going to be um. They were going 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:46.760 to be photographed, even though it was just you know, 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:50.120 for some person wasn't going to post it online or something. 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:54.480 But people are very very careful. It's it's fascinating all 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:57.360 these pieces because the really you know, when when folks 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.280 outside of betting asked me about better, they're a whole 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.160 section of society that that immediately is sort of dismissive. 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:04.640 And I always say, I was like, yeah, but you 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:07.320 know what, the top two percent of these guys, I 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:09.440 put him in any profession and up up, go up 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:13.000 against any professions. Top two Uh. It really is just 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:17.080 an amazing swath of of human beings. Michael, when we 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:18.640 come back, if you're kind enough to stay with us, 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:20.640 I want to ask you about, first of all, what 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.000 you might be working on currently or what you have 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:26.360 your eyes on, uh these days. Where does the phil 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:31.040 Ivy Kelly case uh stand right now in terms of 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.840 it's a judication globally. Want to get into that a 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.800 little bit. And then on our air this past Friday, Uh, 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:41.480 we had Houston Curtis on on Follow the Money. I 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:43.240 want to play a clip from that and get your 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:47.600 gauge on just what Houston Curtis was up to a 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.440 p or more exploitation than anything. We'll get into that 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:54.040 coming up with Michael Kaplan and Bill Crackenburger, of course, 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:55.640 who did it all for us? Right here on a 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:59.160 numbers game at Visa, the sports betting network. Welcome back 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:04.240 to a number game with Jill Alexander. Man escapes dot 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.119 com has the tools for your family jewels. You can 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:09.920 get off plus free shipping with the code vs in 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:14.160 at manscape dot com. That's off at man escaped dot 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:18.040 com with promo code v s I n It's Gill Alexander, 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.520 Bill Crackenburger and Michael Kaplan kind enough to join us 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:25.880 for most of this hour. He's written pieces about advantage 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.119 play in the New York Times, New York Post, Thrillist. 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:32.440 Cigarifici not a Wired Playboy, author of four books. Um 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.040 has written stuff about advantage play, even when it comes 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:38.199 to a stripper who made three hundred thousand dollars a 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.119 year in Las Vegas. Have you ever followed up with 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:44.359 her at all? Michael. I actually did call her about 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:46.520 something else I was writing on and she just goes, yeah, 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.919 I don't know about that, but yeah she was. She 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:51.879 was a made at I mean, like you know, but listen, 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:55.520 that's like another example of somebody who's an eight who, 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.360 like you know, most strippers, they show up, they do 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:00.919 their work. She cared of at it so much like 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:04.000 she didn't drink, didn't do drugs, drove you know, her 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:08.080 old Volkswagen jettle while all these other strippers are buying BMW's. 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.520 You know, she exercised before she went, and she meditated, 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.320 she got her nails done. I mean, she went in 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:17.040 there just like an ap walks into a casino. It 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:20.080 was like no different, which was which was amazing that 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:21.960 you know, you've got all these women that you know, 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:24.359 they're making good money or whatever, but they're not in 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.600 there to crush it like she was. It was. It 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:30.159 was just in its own way, fascinating. Billy I did 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:32.000 an old deep dive on Michael this week, and believe me, 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:37.840 I read every I read everything, No please, it was 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.399 it was. I'll put it this way, and Bill, you 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:44.440 can appreciate this too. I'm a sports better. I don't 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.280 I don't play cards, I don't usually play casino games 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:51.040 of any kind. But reading your reading your stuff, and 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:54.280 I know Bill does dabble more than dabble. Reading your stuff, 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:56.880 it almost made me want to just like I've been 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:59.280 doing this wrong all these years? My god, why have 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.040 I been know? Like it got that far into my head. 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:05.040 I was like, this is just phenomenal stuff. You must 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.400 I mean, really, you say you're a practitioner. But but 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:10.359 wouldn't you say because Billy and I were talking about 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.159 this this weekend, Bill, you'll you'll articulate maybe better for me. 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:16.840 It's our little corner of the world, whether it's sports betting, 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:19.680 or whether it's advantage play in other casino games or 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:24.959 otherwise we just talked about. It really is a phenomenal 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:29.240 cross section of humanity, Like it's just never ending in 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:36.159 its fascinating characters. I'm coming in here for one second. 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.600 You know, I love when someone I love when someone 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.919 challenges me or something about and and Michael knows what 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:46.080 I'm talking about here. I can walk into almost any 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:50.240 casino in Las Vegas, especially the East coast Atlantic city, 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:52.560 and I love to bet anyone that wants to bet me. 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:56.600 If I can make money in that casino by the 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:59.639 time I walk out. I'll bet any amount of money 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.879 to anybody that I could walk into a casino and 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:05.320 I can make money. On the way out, I'll have 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:07.600 more money than I went in with. Because there's so 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:10.840 many advantages in casino is not granted, it's a grind. 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.280 The r o I that I would have compared to 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:16.919 sports betting and doing other things I do is not 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.080 as much, so I stick to sports betting. However, there 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:25.200 are certain bonus machines and bankable machines. Every casino has them. 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.480 You put your time in its tedious work. But I 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:31.119 know one thing, without a doubt. If I didn't have 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:34.320 sports betting, I'd be walking through a casino. It's a casino, 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:38.480 each casino making a little bit of money, thirty bucks, 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.159 fifty bucks, eighty bucks. I guarantee you every day I 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:44.680 would have a profit because these casinos all have these 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.560 type of machines. And I'm sure Michael knows what I'm 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:51.359 talking about. Um and and there's some other people on 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:54.240 the network that uh knows what I'm talking about because 0:20:54.280 --> 0:21:00.040 then they know about these bankable machines. So anyway, go ahead, guys, Yeah, that. 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.280 I mean, that's interesting. Yeah, I mean like that's always 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:04.840 like the funny thing you people who like I've talked 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:06.840 to people who love GA and I could tell you 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:09.439 how to beat this game of that and but like they, 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:11.359 oh yeah, that sounds too much like a job. I 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:15.400 think most people don't mind losing the money and they're 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:19.080 there for recreation, and it's you know, that's fine, there's 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:24.879 nothing wrong with that. It in some ways, I've buried 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:27.080 the headline and I want to get back to uh 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:31.320 to it momentarily because Michael, you've had something actually we'll 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:33.320 get it here because we have sixty seconds. But you 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:36.280 had something optioned here that you that you uh I 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:39.320 wasn't aware of. Oh yeah, this the story that I 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.119