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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a bride to be with

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Speaker 1: one foot down the aisle, is stabbed twenty times, her

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Speaker 1: body riddled with bruises. How how is that ruled suicide?

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Speaker 1: A special guest, a prosecutor from within the District Attorney's office,

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Speaker 1: breaking his silence, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. I don't believe it.

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Speaker 1: I'm going on the record, Ellen Greenberg did not commit suicide,

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Speaker 1: and I am basing that on reams and reams of

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Speaker 1: evidence joining us an assistant district attorney who was within

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Speaker 1: the DA's office. The DA's office that did not invent

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Speaker 1: used to gate properly. But first I want to see

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Speaker 1: what I can learn from the nine to one one call. Listen,

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Speaker 1: I just walked right part.

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Speaker 2: She acts on the floor with blood everywhere. I want

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Speaker 2: to see, but please come, oh no, well no, please, Harry,

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Speaker 2: please from I don't know. I can't tell you.

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Speaker 3: Does you have to calm yourself down in order to

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Speaker 3: get you somehow?

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. She I don't know. I'm looking

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Speaker 2: at her right now. She I don't. I can't see anything,

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Speaker 2: shouldn't there's nothing broken, She's please Ellie.

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Speaker 3: You don't know where she's bleeding from, Ellie coming from.

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Speaker 2: I think her head everywhere, everywhere. She might have fallen,

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Speaker 2: you know what happened. She may have slipped his blood

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Speaker 2: on the on the table. Her her piature is a

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Speaker 2: little purple. Okay, hold on the rest for.

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Speaker 4: Her on the phone.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's unusual, he says. There's blood everywhere. But when

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Speaker 1: authority arrived, they noticed it was an extremely neat scene

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Speaker 1: and very little blood in light of the fact that

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Speaker 1: the victim, who was sitting up leaning against the kitchen

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Speaker 1: cabinets her feet slid out before her, had been stabbed

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Speaker 1: at least twenty times, including to the back of the neck,

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Speaker 1: the back of the head, and more. And now we

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Speaker 1: are learning that there are bruises to the neck unrelated

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Speaker 1: to the stabs. Let that sink in. Why are there

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Speaker 1: bruises around Ellen's neck? That said more than I'm on

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Speaker 1: one call?

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Speaker 4: Listen for one splat rock road, Please carry.

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Speaker 2: Yes. I I went downstairs to work out.

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Speaker 3: I came back up the.

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Speaker 2: Door and lashed my fiances inside. It wasn't she wasn't

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Speaker 2: an So after about a half hour I decided to

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Speaker 2: break it down. I see her now just on the

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Speaker 2: floor before she got fonding.

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Speaker 5: Okay, keep breathing.

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Speaker 2: I can't look at her test.

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Speaker 6: I needed to calm down.

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Speaker 3: I need to look at her test.

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Speaker 6: I really don't.

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Speaker 3: I was going away. Look at her chest. She sent

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Speaker 3: on her bank.

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Speaker 7: Get her tests and tell me it is on up

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Speaker 7: and down, up and down.

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Speaker 3: I don't see her moving.

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Speaker 1: She's not lying down. She was not lying flat on

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Speaker 1: her back. Then, I don't want to call her, says

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Speaker 1: she's on her back. No, isn't it true? John Lucy

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Speaker 1: with me an all star panel including Ellen's parents, Josh

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Speaker 1: and Sandy, but with us Guy DeAndrea, a prosecutor in

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Speaker 1: the office who reviewed the case, been an hour who

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Speaker 1: is creating a book what happened to Ellen? Tom Brennan,

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Speaker 1: consultant for the Enberg family, doctor Kendall Crown's renowned medical examiner,

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Speaker 1: to John Lucy, journalist's pen Live and the Patriot News

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Speaker 1: of Harrisburg, author of Kill the Story, John Lucy, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. She was not lying flat

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Speaker 1: on her back. And as a matter of fact, isn't

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Speaker 1: it true, John Lucy that blood had dried going from

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Speaker 1: the nose area across the face toward the ear there

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Speaker 1: was horizontal dried blood, which means she was not sitting

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Speaker 1: up when this happened, and when first responders got there,

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Speaker 1: blood was already coagulated on the floor and her body

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Speaker 1: was cold to the touch and her fingers were turning blue.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that true?

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Speaker 7: That is correct? Yes, she was at the crime scene.

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Speaker 7: The way it was photographed, she is slumped up against

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Speaker 7: the kitchen cabinet with a knife protruding, a ten inch

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Speaker 7: knife protruding from her chest and on the face. You

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Speaker 7: have the wrong way blood based on the position she

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Speaker 7: was found in, which means the conclusion is her body

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Speaker 7: was moved that at some point she was in that

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Speaker 7: flat on our back position, but somehow moved to be

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Speaker 7: slumped up against the cabinet.

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Speaker 1: I like what you just said, Lucy. You said the

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Speaker 1: wrong way blood. I've never heard it put like that,

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Speaker 1: like a wrong way driver, the wrong way blood. That

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Speaker 1: captures it. The bride to be Ellen Greenberg in life

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Speaker 1: is a beauty again joining us an all star panel,

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Speaker 1: but I think we could all do with another. Listen

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Speaker 1: to the nine to one one call. No matter how

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Speaker 1: many times you listen to it, you can always learn

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Speaker 1: something new. Listen. Okay, her chest same.

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Speaker 3: Over for sure, yeeld down by her side.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, Kelly, please, you can't freak out.

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Speaker 8: Okay, I'm trying to.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to sure won't come off as a zipper.

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Speaker 2: Oh alright, she stabbed herself land she fell a knife?

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Speaker 2: Oh no, her knight's picking out a nice sticking out of.

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Speaker 1: Her hundred head stand it though, I guess, so.

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Speaker 2: I don't know where she's felling it. I don't know.

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Speaker 5: Okay, well, don't take it.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's just me. But if I came in and

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Speaker 1: I found I didn't even say the words my husband stabbed,

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Speaker 1: my first thought would not be he stabbed himself. My

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Speaker 1: first thought would not be he fell on the knife.

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Speaker 1: That just would not be my first thought. But I'm projecting,

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Speaker 1: and you're not allowed to do that in a court

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Speaker 1: of law. Sandy and Josh Greenberg joining us. This is

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Speaker 1: These are Ellen's parents and you can find them on

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Speaker 1: Facebook at Justice for Ellen FB and at this point

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Speaker 1: they are broken and they are writing their own checks

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Speaker 1: out of their life savings to continue investigating their daughter's homicide.

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Speaker 1: You can find them a go fund me, Justice for

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Speaker 1: Ellen standing and Josh, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: This case is still not resolved, still not resolved. I

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Speaker 1: want to ask you, and I don't even know how

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Speaker 1: you can sit there calmly. I admire you, and I'm

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Speaker 1: learning from you every day every time I'm around you,

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Speaker 1: and I treasure the time that we were together in

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Speaker 1: the flesh. I want to know, before I get into

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Speaker 1: all of these facts, how do you keep going? And

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Speaker 1: remember a lot of crime victims are going to hear

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Speaker 1: what you have to say right now tonight. Tell us, how,

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Speaker 1: Sandy do you keep going?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 8: Right now, it's thirteen and a half years and we've

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Speaker 8: been up against tons of opposition, But I've never felt

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Speaker 8: so empowered that I really do feel we will have

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Speaker 8: justice for Ellen, and hopefully the things that we've been

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Speaker 8: fighting for will help other crime victims.

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Speaker 1: Joining us an all star panel, and I want to

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Speaker 1: remind everyone in our jurisprudence, no one is guilty until

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Speaker 1: they have gone before a jury of their peers and

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Speaker 1: brought on their own evidence that they so wish had

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Speaker 1: tested the state's evidence, and there is a guilty verdict.

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Speaker 1: No one, no matter what you may think, is guilty

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Speaker 1: in our country unless proven so in a court of

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Speaker 1: law in this case has been named a person of interest.

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Speaker 1: No one has been named a suspect. That said to

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Speaker 1: Guy DeAndrea joining us, former prosecutor in the office who

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Speaker 1: reviewed the Ellen Greenberg case, now a high profile lawyer

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Speaker 1: at Laffy Buch DeAndrea Reich and Ryan Guy DeAndrea, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. Now. I'm just looking and

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Speaker 1: listening to the nine one one call, and we've got

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Speaker 1: reams of it. My first reaction if I were to fine,

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Speaker 1: let's just say Jackie sitting right here with me in

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Speaker 1: the studio, if I found her stab dead, my first

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Speaker 1: reaction would be, oh, my stars, she stabbed herself dead.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't even think that. I called Nie on one

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Speaker 1: and I would assume she had been murdered for Pete's sake.

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Speaker 1: But I want to move you from that moment up

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Speaker 1: to the time when you we're asked specifically to review

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Speaker 1: the Ellen Greenberg case after reviewing the file, and I

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Speaker 1: want you to think very carefully before you answer, after

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Speaker 1: reviewing the file in full, do you believe Ellen killed herself?

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Speaker 9: I've had now I started looking into this file. Nancy

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Speaker 9: Grace back in twenty fifteen, and of course I left

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Speaker 9: the office two years later, but I have stayed actively

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Speaker 9: involved because I want so desperately for the truth and

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Speaker 9: for the Greenbergs to get justice, and the justice that

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Speaker 9: I look for is truth, right, and so I stayed

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Speaker 9: very actively involved in terms of keeping up with the Greenbergs,

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Speaker 9: with Tom Brennan, and so from twenty fifteen until now

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Speaker 9: twenty twenty four, with everything that has come out, I

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Speaker 9: can definitively say, as a former homicide prosecutor that this

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Speaker 9: was not a suicide.

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Speaker 1: The sheer number of stab woons, twenty stab wounds, including

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Speaker 1: to the back of the head, the back of the neck.

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Speaker 1: You know women, well anybody can't even zip up a

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Speaker 1: back zipper by themselves many times, so look look at this.

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Speaker 1: No way was this suicide. And we also have the

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Speaker 1: unresolved bruising to the neck that is unrelated to a

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Speaker 1: stab wound. Somebody or somehow she got bruising to her neck,

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Speaker 1: Guy DeAndrea, that is not connected to Oh my stars,

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Speaker 1: these bruises. She's covered covered in bruises.

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Speaker 9: Guy, I was told when I when I reviewed this file,

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Speaker 9: these are bruising, which is so important to understand in

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Speaker 9: all stages of healing, meaning that these abuses, these bruisings

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Speaker 9: happened at different peace periods of time. These are clear

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Speaker 9: signs of abuse or assault that were inflicted upon her.

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Speaker 9: And the best answer I got when asked about this

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Speaker 9: is and I can't even make this up. Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 9: She did pilates and.

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Speaker 1: Put him up. Put him up. That you got a

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Speaker 1: woman dad stabbed twenty times in the back of the neck,

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Speaker 1: the back of the head, her body covered in bruises.

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Speaker 1: She was making a fruit salad in the middle of

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Speaker 1: making lunch. She had come up earlier that day because

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Speaker 1: of a blizzard outside. She called all of her children's parents,

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Speaker 1: first grade teacher to make sure they all got home okay.

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Speaker 1: Then she started making a fruit salad. She's still this

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Speaker 1: is very probative to me, and I gotta think it through, guy,

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Speaker 1: I gotta think it through what it means. In one hand,

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Speaker 1: she still had a dish rag from making the fruit salad.

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Speaker 1: She in the middle holding the dish rug making the salad.

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Speaker 1: She stabbed herself. No, she was holding that when somebody

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Speaker 1: else stabbed her and got I mean, there's just so

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Speaker 1: much I can't even get it all out. One of

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Speaker 1: the stabs to the back of the neck was so

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Speaker 1: severe it actually went through the skin and sliced the

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Speaker 1: dura du r of her spinal cord. And at best

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Speaker 1: she would have felt nothing, but most likely would have

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Speaker 1: become incapacitated. That was not the last stab. The last

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Speaker 1: stab had to be in the chest because with her

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Speaker 1: other hand, her right hand, it was still on the

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Speaker 1: knife kitchen towel and left hand knife in the other hand.

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Speaker 1: So does somebody actually want me to believe this girl

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Speaker 1: in the middle of her fruit salad stabbed herself twenty times,

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Speaker 1: even after she's incapacitated, and then plunges a knife in

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Speaker 1: her own chest. Guy, is that what they want me

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Speaker 1: to believe?

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Speaker 9: It's not believable. It defies all logic. And the last

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Speaker 9: stab wound we don't know the order. Like you said,

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Speaker 9: the last stab wound was the one to the chest,

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Speaker 9: and now that we know her spinal column was pierced.

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Speaker 9: To your point, not only would she be incapacitated, she

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Speaker 9: would have been rendered immediately incapacitated by that stab wound.

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Speaker 9: And who, in the midst of stabbing themselves also takes

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Speaker 9: the knife and smacks themselves on the back of the

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Speaker 9: head because she has a huge blunt forced trauma to

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Speaker 9: the back of her head.

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Speaker 4: A Philly teacher found stab to death in her own apartment.

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Speaker 4: Her death ruled a suicide despite stabs in the back

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Speaker 4: of her head.

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Speaker 1: Joining me in all star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 1: what we know, Ryan now, but this is not over.

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Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg did not commit suicide. I would take anything

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Speaker 1: on it. And this gibberish, this blathering about searching painless

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Speaker 1: ways to commit suicide, I can guarantee you stabbing yourself

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Speaker 1: twenty times is not a painless way to commit suicide.

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Speaker 1: The FBI did a very extensive search of her computers,

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Speaker 1: her laptops, her cell phone, the works, and found no

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Speaker 1: evidence at all of any suicidal searches. As a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, to Beney now joining us, co author of

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Speaker 1: What Happened to Ellen, Benay, isn't it true that what

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Speaker 1: was found on her computer were searches of photos, images,

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Speaker 1: and information related to planning a wedding.

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Speaker 3: That's right, Nancy, And I want to just add so

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Speaker 3: not only was Ellen preparing food and seeing to her students,

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Speaker 3: she had filled up her car with gas. This was

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Speaker 3: not a person who was ending her life. This was

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Speaker 3: a person who was living her life. Yes, she had

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Speaker 3: searched for things about her wedding, and her therapist said

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Speaker 3: there was no suicidal ideation. Ellen was not suicidal. There

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Speaker 3: was no evidence whatsoever from anywhere that Ellen was suicidal,

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Speaker 3: a fact.

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Speaker 1: That psychiatrist doctor Ellen Berman is very clear in her

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Speaker 1: written records. No suicidal thoughts, manifestations, no verbal discussion of suicide. Nothing.

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Speaker 1: At most, she was having anxiety as it relates to

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Speaker 1: the wedding. Now, let me be clear about something to

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Speaker 1: Josh Greenberg, this is Ellen's dad. She was a daddy's girl. Josh.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it true that she Ellen and Sam had moved

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Speaker 1: in together into this luxury venice loft apartments and condos

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Speaker 1: and she was very very happy moving forward, ostensibly moving

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Speaker 1: forward with the wedding. But isn't it true, Josh, that

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Speaker 1: prior to her death she suddenly called home and wanted

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Speaker 1: to move home to Harrisburg. Isn't that true?

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Speaker 7: Yes?

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Speaker 4: Emphatically yes, and unexplainable to.

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Speaker 1: Me and Josh at the time. You gave her some

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Speaker 1: very good advice. You said, listen, if you're anxious about

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Speaker 1: school or you want to transfer schools, finish out at

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Speaker 1: the end of the year. Just finish. Don't leave midterm,

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Speaker 1: because that would have been impossible for her to move

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Speaker 1: back home to Harrisburg. And there she is living where

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Speaker 1: they were at Venice Loft and a very highly no

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Speaker 1: crime rate, zero crime rate. It's going to throw that in.

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Speaker 1: So you said wait it out, and then of course, yeah,

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Speaker 1: then come home if you want to, but don't do

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Speaker 1: it now, finish the year out. You told her that

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Speaker 1: because you didn't want her, I assume to get a

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Speaker 1: reputation of leaving in the middle of the school year.

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Speaker 7: I had two things in my mind. Help my daughter,

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Speaker 7: and I couldn't because I didn't know what was psychologically

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Speaker 7: going on in her mind.

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Speaker 5: And I wanted not to become not hirable.

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Speaker 7: Let's call it, for lack of a better term.

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Speaker 1: Josh, I had a similar thing happen. So maybe I'm

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Speaker 1: projecting and correct me if I'm wrong. I don't mind

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Speaker 1: being wrong. My first job out of law school, I had,

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Speaker 1: let me just say, to put it euphemistically, a very

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Speaker 1: very recalcigrant judge that I clerked for, and there were

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Speaker 1: many times said I wanted to quit, and my dad said,

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Speaker 1: don't you finished that clerkship and then go to the

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Speaker 1: next thing. And I did, I did what he told

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Speaker 1: me to do. I get it. At any time, and

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Speaker 1: she spoke to you guys every day and called her

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Speaker 1: mom multiple times during the day. At any time, did

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Speaker 1: she ever state to you I want to kill myself?

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Speaker 1: You know sometimes people say that in jest. But did

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Speaker 1: she ever say anything like that.

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Speaker 5: Came No, No, that never came up, not even close

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Speaker 5: to it.

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Speaker 7: Home was as far as.

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Speaker 10: Is Ellen Greenberg Listen Ellen Greenberg is the first grade

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Speaker 10: teacher in Philadelphia. At twenty seven years old. She and

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Speaker 10: longtime boyfriend Sam Goldberg have just sent out Saved the

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Speaker 10: day cards for their upcoming wedding. A blizzard is bearing

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Speaker 10: down on Philadelphia and school has dismissed everyone early, and

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Speaker 10: on her way home, Ellen stops to fill up her

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Speaker 10: gas tank. Once she's home with her fiance Sam Goldberg,

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Speaker 10: leaves around four forty five pm to work out in

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Speaker 10: the apartment complex gym. When Sam arrives back less than

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Speaker 10: an hour later, the door is locked from the inside.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the door locked from the inside. Joining me right now.

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Speaker 1: Tom Brennan, private eye consultant with the Greenberg family. He's

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Speaker 1: been on the case from the get go, extremely loyal.

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Speaker 1: He's standing by the case and the Greenberg's Tom Brennan

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Speaker 1: explain to me about what kind of lock that was.

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Speaker 1: It's my understanding as one like you see a lot

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Speaker 1: of times in a hotel, it's got to swing over,

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Speaker 1: and you swing it over and you can open the

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Speaker 1: door from the outside about that much. But then that

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Speaker 1: stops it.

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Speaker 11: Yes, you can. It's called a swinging bar lock, and

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Speaker 11: you'll find them in any type of hotel or motel.

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Speaker 11: But in order to disengage unlocked that lock, one or

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Speaker 11: the other piece has to become dismounted. Okay. And one

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Speaker 11: of the first things I looked at was the door. Okay,

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Speaker 11: this is a particle board door, and you can see

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Speaker 11: the damage to it and down below on the floor.

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Speaker 11: In the other photographs there should have been some particle,

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Speaker 11: you know, wood particles, and there's one screw missing. That

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Speaker 11: other screw should have been on the floor. Well, none

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Speaker 11: of those things were came into view. They were they

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Speaker 11: weren't there. That that indicated to me that you know,

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Speaker 11: if you would put your shoulder to that door, one

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Speaker 11: or the other piece would have had to come off,

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Speaker 11: would have had been dismounted from either the door jam

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Speaker 11: or the door. The Pennsylvania State Police sent me to

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Speaker 11: lock school and okay, and I did the servetish's entries

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Speaker 11: for the department, and I know a lot about lucks

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Speaker 11: and that that okay is not that's what we refer

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Speaker 11: to as stagey. Okay, it's made to look like okay, Uh,

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Speaker 11: it was damaged.

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Speaker 4: What happened to beloved Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg. The Pennsylvania

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court agrees to review the case amidst a controversial ruling.

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Speaker 6: Forensic pathologist doctor Wayne k Ross is commissioned by the

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Speaker 6: Greenbergs to review the case. Doctor Ross says there's evidence

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Speaker 6: of strangulation. Ross says there's a mark over the front

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Speaker 6: of the neck and in the strap muscles over the

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Speaker 6: right side of the neck, claiming these patterns are compatible

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Speaker 6: with a manual strangulation. Ross also points out the number

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Speaker 6: of bruises over different parts of Greenberg's are consistent with

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Speaker 6: the repeated meetings. He writes, it is my opinion that

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Speaker 6: the investigating authority should pursue this case as a homicide.

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Speaker 6: It is further my opinion, to a reasonable degree of

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Speaker 6: medical certainty, that the manner of death is a homicide.

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Speaker 6: The scene findings were indicative of a homicide.

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Speaker 1: Again, joining me an esteemed medical examiner, doctor Kendall Crowns,

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Speaker 1: the chief medical Examiner of Terran County. That's of Fort Worth.

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Speaker 1: Never lack of business there, that Morgue lecturer at the

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Speaker 1: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU, Doctor Kendall Crown's thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us, Doctor Crowns. The medical examiner,

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Speaker 1: which is another can of worms. I want to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about. Initially, wait for it, rule this case

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Speaker 1: a homicide initially, Doctor Osborne. Then after a secret meeting,

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Speaker 1: I can't even find out who was at the meeting

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Speaker 1: between police representatives and representatives from your office, Dandrea, your

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Speaker 1: old office from the DA's office, and police go to

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Speaker 1: the medical examiner after he rules homicide, and in that meeting,

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Speaker 1: somehow the ruling was changed to suicide after he ruled

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Speaker 1: it homicide. And I'm going to talk to you later

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Speaker 1: about being pressured to change a cod cause of death ruling.

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Speaker 1: But first and more important, the substance of this case.

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Speaker 1: I want you to talk to me if you don't

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Speaker 1: mind about the strap muscles over the right side of

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Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg's neck and signs of strangulation. What does that mean.

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Speaker 5: Signs of strangulation are often bruises about the neck in

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Speaker 5: the area, especially when it's a manual strangulation, so someone

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Speaker 5: grabs you by the and are stranguling you or with

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Speaker 5: both hands. Usually your fingernails will dig into the skin.

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Speaker 5: They will leave bruises semi lunar type shapes, which is

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Speaker 5: the nails digging in. But you'll get bruises on the neck.

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Speaker 5: And then the strap muscles in the neck are the

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Speaker 5: muscles of the anterior neck or the front of your

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Speaker 5: neck that are going along these areas of your neck,

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Speaker 5: and they are often in manual strangulations. You will see

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Speaker 5: hemorrhages in those as well. So when you see bruises

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Speaker 5: on the neck with strangular with hemorrhages and the strap muscles,

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Speaker 5: it makes you very suspicious for a string of manual strangulation.

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Speaker 5: Other things you'll look for is but tiki are little

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Speaker 5: tiny dot hemorrhages in the eyes as well. Don't always

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Speaker 5: necessarily see those, but again those are signs of strangulation.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, I didn't want to interrupt to you. I

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Speaker 1: was trying to drink in every word. But I want

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Speaker 1: to be clear this forensic pathologist, doctor Wayne k Ross,

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Speaker 1: is hiring. You know how much money the Greenberg's have

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Speaker 1: spent trying to investigate this and clear their daughter's name.

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Speaker 1: This forensic pathologist says, there is evince of strangulation. There

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Speaker 1: is a mark on the front of the neck and

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Speaker 1: in the strap muscles over the right side of the neck.

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Speaker 1: And I would like to emphasize the word and it's

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Speaker 1: not just a mark on the front of the neck

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Speaker 1: that is combined with patterns compatible with manual strangulation by hand,

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Speaker 1: not ligature on the strap muscles. Could you show me

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Speaker 1: the strap muscles again, doctor Kendle Crowns.

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Speaker 5: Certainly. The strap muscles are the muscles that are on

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Speaker 5: the front of your neck and they all sit here

401
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Speaker 5: and here, so you'll see any time in a manual

402
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Speaker 5: strangulation the strap muscles will show injury from the hand digging.

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Speaker 1: Into stated Doctor Kendall Crowns that this would be indicative

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Speaker 1: of strangulation. My question to you is how else could

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Speaker 1: they get there? If it's not strangulation, who's gonna get

406
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Speaker 1: bruising right here? How does that happen?

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Speaker 5: Pilates well, not pilates unless it's aggressive plates. I don't know,

408
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Speaker 5: but you could get a punch to the neck that could.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever even done pilates?

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Speaker 5: I have not, nor have I done goat yoga.

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Speaker 1: Then you don't what aggressive pilates are you even talking about.

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Speaker 1: I've done pilates. It was painful, but nothing touched my neck.

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Speaker 1: I can guarantee you that understood.

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Speaker 5: But so I don't think it's pilates. I do think

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Speaker 5: it could be strangulation. It could be a punch to

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Speaker 5: the neck, especially with all these stab wounds that you

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Speaker 5: have involved. It could be a control as well.

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Speaker 1: You're the last person I want to argue with because

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Speaker 1: I know I'm in over my head. But how could

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Speaker 1: a punch to the neck end up in bruising on

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Speaker 1: the strap muscles? That would be two marks. It didn't

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Speaker 1: say strap muscle, it said must sold. So how could

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Speaker 1: one punch result in multiple bruising?

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Speaker 5: Well, your assumption of one punch was going to bruise

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Speaker 5: one side, but you know you could punch multiple times.

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Speaker 5: It is a stabbing, it's a melee type situation, so

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Speaker 5: a lot could be going on. Now strangulation makes more sense,

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Speaker 5: But you did ask could something else cause it? Yes,

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Speaker 5: blunk force injuries. Multiple strikes to the neck could cause

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Speaker 5: that as well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, doctor Kendall crowns have she received Let's just pretend

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Speaker 1: that theory is true for a moment. If she received

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Speaker 1: punches to the neck, would those be the bruises that

434
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: you would expect to see.

435
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 5: Not likely. The bruising that I've seen in the pictures

436
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 5: looks more consistent with a manual strangulation than anything else.

437
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: And very quickly, let me follow up with Tom Brennan.

438
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: I don't in the original medical examiner's report, did he

439
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: Osbourne noticed the bridges to the neck.

440
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 11: There's there's no indication in the autopsy report that that

441
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 11: states that. The only time so that was.

442
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: Completely ignored and would have indicated strangulation.

443
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 11: No, the only time, the only time the neck was

444
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 11: addressed was when doctor Wayne Ross and I were reviewing

445
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 11: the autopsy photos, and in the autopsy photos we found

446
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 11: the damage to the neck and the indication that there

447
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 11: were some It looked like a nail mark on the

448
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 11: right side.

449
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: Of the neck, a nail mark. Ellen Greenberg had a

450
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: nail mark, fingernail mark on her neck. Okay Brennan, this

451
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: is a yes, no lightning round are you Are you

452
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: sure that you and the pathologists saw a nail mark,

453
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: n Ai l Mark.

454
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 11: Yes, we took a photograph of okay.

455
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: Doctor Kendall Crowns. I knew there was bruising to the neck,

456
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,479
Speaker 1: did not know there was a fingernail mark. Does that

457
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: change your assumption about aggressive pilates or a punch to

458
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: the neck.

459
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 5: So yeah, some nail marks again would be from digging

460
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 5: the hand in They leave these kind of semi lunar

461
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 5: marks that would be a manual strangulation.

462
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: Straight back to Guy DeAndrea, former prosecutor and the office

463
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: who personally reviewed combed through with a fine toothcomb the

464
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg file now lawyer Lafey Bucci DeAndrea Right, and Ryan, Guy,

465
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: I feel sick. This is the same feeling I would

466
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: have in court talking to the medical examiner and hearing

467
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: the evidence and then look over at the defendant and

468
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: they would be climbing some the crazy thing way in.

469
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: I mean, don't you just want to jump out of

470
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: your skin hearing all that?

471
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 9: Absolutely, Nancy, and in reviewing the medical examiner's report, I

472
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 9: had so many issues. Once I dug in and investigated

473
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 9: and now learning everything I'm learning, you know up to

474
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 9: this point, it's it's baffling to me. And one of

475
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 9: the things you know that I've always struggled with, and

476
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 9: I know you know this fact, But in the Medical

477
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 9: Examiner's report there's talk of a neuropathologist, doctor Rourke reviewing

478
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 9: doing the neuropathological examination that never happened. I discovered that

479
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 9: never happened. So why is it in the medical Examiner's

480
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 9: report as a fact.

481
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna try to make this quick. I'm gonna

482
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: call in Bena an Hour with me. Bene an Hour,

483
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: who together we were writing what happened to Ellen? Bena,

484
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: we have gone over and over and over Doctor Rourke Adams,

485
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: who Osbourne the medical examiner says, Yeah, I brought her

486
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: in on this because she's a neuro brain neck pathologist

487
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: and I wanted her to look at the dura, that

488
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: part of Ellen's spine that was nicked. Nothing. And then

489
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: isn't it subn a hour that doctor Rourke Adams doesn't

490
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: remember this ever happening, and she didn't put in her notes,

491
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: she didn't put her daytimer, and her practice was to

492
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: always bill. I mean the woman's got to make a living.

493
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: She didn't submit a bill. There's no record this ever happened,

494
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 1: and Rourke Adams says, I have no recollection of that

495
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: ever happening. Isn't that Shubene hour?

496
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 3: That is absolutely true, tragically and infuriatingly. This is just

497
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 3: one of the many things in this case that makes

498
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 3: no sense, that defies logic, that defies authenticity, that defides

499
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 3: how everything is handled in these cases. I want to

500
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 3: just say something about the nail mark. Joseph Scott Morgan

501
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 3: in his investigation for you, talked about the nail mark

502
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 3: was in the bruising and what he said, this is

503
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 3: a quote. What we see in a classic strangulation. Are

504
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 3: these classic nail marks like a rake moving through the skin.

505
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 3: This indicates a struggle.

506
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: Guy DeAndrea, when you saw and you believed in your

507
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: heart of hearts that this is not a suicide, did

508
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: you tell anybody in the DA's office.

509
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 9: I did, and my superiors, who were at least my

510
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 9: immediate superior, was very supportive of me doing the investigation,

511
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 9: and she asked what do I want to do. And

512
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 9: at the time I didn't know that I was going

513
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 9: to leave to join private practice, but we were just

514
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 9: going to wait for the independent neuropathological autopsy that was

515
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 9: going to be performed on that piece of the spinal column.

516
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 9: And then I was under the impression that, I mean,

517
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 9: I even think if I had stayed sadly, that this

518
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 9: would have been changed. Back in twenty seventeen. That is

519
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 9: what was being indicated to me, not just be my office,

520
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 9: but also by the medical examiner's office, meaning at a minimum,

521
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 9: it's going to be undetermined, but potentially depending on what

522
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 9: the neuropath says, homicide. And that was seven years ago.

523
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: To John Lucy joining us from Panlin and the Patriot

524
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: News of Harrisburg, who's been on the case from the

525
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: very beginning, response, how can this stand? How can we

526
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 1: stand for this?

527
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 7: Well, unfortunately, in Pennsylvania, medical examiners and corners have a

528
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 7: wide discretion in determining the manner of death. And that's

529
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 7: the crux of the court case that is now before

530
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 7: the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania to change that. That's the

531
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 7: odyssey that the Greenbergs have been on, spending at last count,

532
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 7: seven hundred thousand dollars of their own money to get

533
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 7: to this doorstep of justice, and then there.

534
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: Is the secret meeting, and I just want to throw

535
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: out there and anybody on the panel that knows about

536
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: this jump in. Please, we need everybody in the brainchest

537
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: jumping in. Then there is this secret meeting with the

538
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: medical examiner. He has he determined this to be a homicide. Obviously.

539
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: Then there's a secret meeting with police and DAS, and

540
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: suddenly the ruling is changed to Tom Brennan, PI, consultant

541
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: for the Greenberg family, what happened? And is it true?

542
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: A female district attorney that was in that meeting has

543
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: been given immunity. You do that when you're looking at

544
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: a criminal charge.

545
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 11: Yes, she's been given high what they call high immunity,

546
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 11: because we were going to name her in the suit.

547
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 11: So she's been given high immunity and we couldn't name

548
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 11: her as one of the defendants in the lawsuit.

549
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: I'm not asking you her name, but do you know

550
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: her name?

551
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 11: Yes?

552
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: Guy, DeAndrea, help me. I don't understand it, and I

553
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: don't understand why this is not being changed. It's so

554
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 1: obvious you told the district attorney's office this is wrong,

555
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 1: and nobody did anything and still haven't done anything.

556
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 2: Why.

557
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean that's a great question. And you know,

558
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 9: ultimately though, it's the medical examiners who have to change it. Sadly,

559
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 9: the DIA's office would have no authority to do that.

560
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 9: And unless the Medical Examiner's office changes it. I mean,

561
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 9: you know this as the prosecutor, how do you prosecute

562
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 9: a homicide when it's ruled a suicide?

563
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 2: Right?

564
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 9: And I asked, if you want me to tell you

565
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 9: about that meeting about why it was changed from homicide

566
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 9: to suicide.

567
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: I asked them, yes, tell me.

568
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 9: Yeah. They told me that the assigned detective went to

569
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 9: them and said, this would be an impossibility to be

570
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 9: a suicide, me, excuse me, a homicide because the door

571
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 9: was an old fashioned dead bolt that locked into the frame,

572
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 9: Like if I grew up in a house like that,

573
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 9: you know, and if you can't breach that door, and

574
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 9: if you do breach it, you're taking the whole door

575
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 9: off the hinges. And so that's what he convinced the

576
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 9: medical examiner. Now, when I debunked that, they had a

577
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 9: million other excuses as to why it wasn't a homicide,

578
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 9: But that was the answer, the singular answer that was

579
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 9: disprovable at looking at a single photograph right, and so

580
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 9: right from the jump I knew there was something off here.

581
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: How did you debunk the theory about the door?

582
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 9: Yeah, so I looked at the photographs and I said,

583
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 9: wait a second, why is this? This is a lot.

584
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 9: This is not a dead bult by any stretch of

585
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 9: anyone's imagination. How is it that if you breach this door,

586
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 9: one either one of those pieces isn't on the ground.

587
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 9: But putting that aside, I said to the medical examiner,

588
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 9: not to be silly, but google it. You can google

589
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 9: this right now on the YouTube and find out that

590
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 9: you can use a hangar, a stick of gum, slam

591
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 9: the door too hard, use a ruler, do all sorts

592
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 9: of things to either lock or unlock this door from

593
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 9: the outside. So don't tell me that no one could

594
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 9: have gotten in or gotten out if this thing is latched. So,

595
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 9: if that's the reason that this was moved or changed

596
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 9: from a homicide to a suicide, nonsense, change it back.

597
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: Yeay. I wrote a book, Don't Be a Victim, and

598
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: part of it is about traveling and how to keep

599
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: yourself safe in a hotel room. We actually did the

600
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: experiment on a door like that. It's not impenetrable. Okay,

601
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: by far you're I mean, if I can do it,

602
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: anybody can do it. Guy DeAndrea, how do you feel

603
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: speaking out against the medical Examiner's ruling because you're up

604
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: against a lot of opposition. I mean, this goes all

605
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: the way up to Shapiro because he is the one

606
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: that said, h double ln oh, I'm not touching it

607
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: with a ten foot pole. It was his duty to

608
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: touch it.

609
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 9: Yeah, And Nancy, I really I've always prided myself elf

610
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 9: and I mean this and not to be sappy, but

611
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 9: on justice and what it means to me is the truth.

612
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 9: And if the truth, which is not but if the

613
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 9: truth is suicide, then it's suicide. But do it the

614
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 9: right way.

615
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 7: But the truth is what justice is.

616
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 9: And when people are looking, how can anyone with a

617
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 9: straight face, now, in twenty twenty four, quite frankly, it

618
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 9: should have been a long time ago, but in twenty

619
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 9: twenty four, with all of this evidence, actual evidence, how

620
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 9: can anyone comfortably sleep knowing that they've said this is

621
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 9: a suicide. It's it's inexplainable, it's inexcusable.

622
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 7: It's inexcusable.

623
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 9: The evidence is clear, and I do not understand why

624
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 9: it's taking the Greenbergs to fight tooth and now the

625
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 9: fortitude they have to keep this fight going, just for justice,

626
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 9: the truth to be told.

627
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know what happened in

628
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 1: this case, if you lived in the building, if you

629
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:56,479
Speaker 1: observed anything, please call one eight hundred four seven two

630
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: eight four seven seven repeat one hundred four seven two

631
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: eight four seven seven. I'm not even going to bother

632
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: to give you the AG's number, eight hundred four seven

633
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 1: two eight four seven seven. Hey Shapiro, you don't like it,

634
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: come at me, Anty Grace signing off good night, then