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Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I and

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Speaker 1: Matt and today we're talking a college cost cutting roadmap

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Speaker 1: with Ron Lieber. Yeah. Ron Lieber has been the Your

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Speaker 1: Money columnist for The New York Times since two thousand

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Speaker 1: and eight and is a three time winner of the

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Speaker 1: Gerald Lobe Award, which is financial and business journalism's highest honor.

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Speaker 1: He is the author of multiple books, including the recently

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Speaker 1: released The Price You Pay for College, which is already

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Speaker 1: a definitive guide to help parents and students think through

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Speaker 1: important decisions when it comes to higher education. Uh. He

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Speaker 1: lives in Brooklyn with his wife, who is also a

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Speaker 1: New York Times journalist, and his two daughters. And Ron,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's so exciting to finally make my debut here. We

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Speaker 1: we've been waiting for this, Ron, and you know, the

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Speaker 1: publication this book was the perfect time to bring you

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Speaker 1: on for sure. And uh yeah, the first question that

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Speaker 1: we ask anybody who comes on the show though, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, Matt and I we like craft beer. That's

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Speaker 1: one of the things we splurge on in here now

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Speaker 1: while we're saving and investing for the future. But we

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Speaker 1: want to know, like, what's your splurge, what's your craftier equivalent? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so beer hurts my belly turns out. Yeah, in my

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Speaker 1: advancing age, it's it's not really agreeing with me, which

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Speaker 1: is sort of unfortunate because right, yeah, I used to

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Speaker 1: agree with it. So, you know, in general, and this

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Speaker 1: is a non pandemic splurge. In general, I tend to

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Speaker 1: splurge on live music experiences to the extent that it's possible.

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Speaker 1: I do not really spare much expense or think much

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Speaker 1: about what it costs. And well, I don't generally enjoy

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Speaker 1: the process of embracing the you know, sort of ticket

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Speaker 1: scalping economy. Gosh, ticketmasters. The word, um well ticketmaster, you know,

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Speaker 1: on its own is a deeply problematic, problematic institution. Um,

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Speaker 1: but you know, the markups on StubHub or whatever. You know,

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Speaker 1: I would so much rather the artists get those, um

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Speaker 1: extra dollars. But in any of it, right, Um, do

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Speaker 1: you remember the last show you went to see before

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Speaker 1: everything shut down? The last show I went to see

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Speaker 1: Versus and then Versus the last splurge um that was required.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think there was a whole steady show

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Speaker 1: somewhere in there, close to the end. Um. I'm a

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Speaker 1: huge fan of the whole study. Those tend not to

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Speaker 1: be splurged tickets, you know. I I will splurge on Broadway,

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Speaker 1: I will splurge on Springsteen. Those are generally the big splurges. Nice. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I get runs there at like the three Nights on

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Speaker 1: a Row kind a show. He's like third Row every night. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean back in the day when when touring was possible,

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Speaker 1: you know, I would go to you know, three dead shows.

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Speaker 1: I've dead shows, two fish shows, right, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm definitely a repeat customer for any rock and roll

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Speaker 1: or related organization that does not repeat the set list

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Speaker 1: from night. I love that. That's so good. Well, let's

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Speaker 1: let's dive into your book. You know, we wanted to

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Speaker 1: ask you, like what led you to write this book

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Speaker 1: in the first place. You know, like you've written about money,

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Speaker 1: but then specifically you know the price of college and

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Speaker 1: student loans for years now. But you know, we were

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Speaker 1: wondering as part of the you know, the impetus was

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Speaker 1: having daughters and trying to figure this stuff out for yourself.

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Speaker 1: Is that the case? Yeah, I'd say some of that's true.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the art begins with the personal, but it

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Speaker 1: sort of ends with the professional. Right. So I have

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Speaker 1: my first kid in two thousand five. I've got two

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Speaker 1: daughters now. One of them is fifteen high school freshman. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The other one is five and and just started kindergarten,

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Speaker 1: So you know, the ninth grader is kind of creeping

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Speaker 1: up on this stuff. So when she was born in

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Speaker 1: two thousand five, I was at the Wall Street Journal

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Speaker 1: and began, naturally, as one does, to write a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about how to save for college five nine plan.

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Speaker 1: And they weren't so good at the time. There was

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Speaker 1: a lot of mediocrity there, and so I spilled a

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Speaker 1: little innk on that um two thousand and eight, two

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Speaker 1: thousand nine, I've moved over to the New York Times.

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Speaker 1: During that recession, a lot of people washed out of

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Speaker 1: some pretty expensive undergraduate institutions with six figures of undergraduate

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Speaker 1: student loan debt that they had not needed a cosigner

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Speaker 1: for um. Things have changed a lot on the mechanics

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Speaker 1: of how that happens or doesn't happen at this point, right,

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Speaker 1: But there are a whole bunch of us who all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden got radicalized around the you know, sort

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Speaker 1: of ever growing um nationwide student loan balance. And for

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Speaker 1: at least ten years now, I've written about student loans

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Speaker 1: off and on, you know, to this day. But what

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Speaker 1: happened to two thousand fifteen that really had nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with me and everything to do with readers, is

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Speaker 1: that my email inbox and my voicemail started to fill

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Speaker 1: up an ever higher volume each spring with parents who

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Speaker 1: are having three related problems. There were the parents who

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Speaker 1: had just assumed they were going to get a bunch

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Speaker 1: of financial aid or their kid and did not realize

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Speaker 1: until the very end that they were not going to

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Speaker 1: be eligible. And they had made a bunch of promises

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Speaker 1: to their kids, um that they weren't sure they were

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Speaker 1: gonna be able to keep anymore. So that was a problem.

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Speaker 1: Second kind of parent, UM, they had been offered with

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Speaker 1: their first or their only kid, this thing known as

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Speaker 1: merit aid in the financial aid award letter, and they

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Speaker 1: hadn't even realized they'd applied for this, didn't know what

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Speaker 1: it was, college counselor hadn't explained it to them. And

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Speaker 1: so they come to me and they're like, Ron, what

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Speaker 1: what's this Merit aid stuff and can I get some

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Speaker 1: more of it? Right? And you know, it's April twelve.

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Speaker 1: I can't really do much for them at that point.

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Speaker 1: So that troubled me. But what really put me over

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Speaker 1: the edge was that I started to get calls from

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Speaker 1: slightly more sophisticated parents, right, parents who had figured out

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Speaker 1: the system. They had, they had, you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: understood it and and known to do the research, but

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Speaker 1: they were having a different set of challenges. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: imagine a New York State resident. Uh, the kid gets

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Speaker 1: into Binghamton, which is you know, arguably the best or

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Speaker 1: the flagship state university. Uh, the kid gets into Kenyan

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Speaker 1: College in Ohio or Occidental College in Los Angeles, and

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Speaker 1: they're they're not being asked to pay the full price.

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Speaker 1: They get a Meritate package and so the school is

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Speaker 1: going to cost them two hundred thousand dollars over four years.

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Speaker 1: And then the kid manages to get into Cornell. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's got an Ivy League invitation, but no discount there.

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Speaker 1: That family earns let's call it, two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: seven thousand dollars a year. Cry them a river, right,

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Speaker 1: but they don't qualify for any need based state. So

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Speaker 1: they said to me, Ron, your newspaper hasn't shut up

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Speaker 1: about the fact that we live in the era of

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Speaker 1: big data. Right, So where is the big data set

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Speaker 1: that tells me how and why Cornell is a hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars better than Kenyan and two hundred thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: better than Binghamton. And I had no idea, because the

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Speaker 1: big data set doesn't exist. There isn't even a small

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Speaker 1: data set on this stuff. And what I realized was

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Speaker 1: that these readers were asking questions about value and values ultimately,

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Speaker 1: because values are you know, part and parcel of how

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Speaker 1: we make the value decision. And so for all the

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Speaker 1: ink that I had build over how to save and

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Speaker 1: how to pay, I had not gotten gotten it through

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Speaker 1: my thick skull in the space of ten years. Right,

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Speaker 1: that the most important question of all was what to

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Speaker 1: pay for college. That's what these people were trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out. And I had failed them to that point.

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Speaker 1: And I realized that there was gonna be no way

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Speaker 1: to answer that question in a newspaper column or in

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Speaker 1: five or in ten and it was going to require

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Speaker 1: a book, yeah, something more like pages. Right. Uh, Hey, Ron,

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Speaker 1: we've We've all seen the chart that shows how the

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Speaker 1: cost of college has been soaring over the past forty years,

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Speaker 1: you know, talking about value, and everyone has been bending

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Speaker 1: over backwards to try to explain why. But in your

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Speaker 1: book you actually discuss how that stat is a little misleading.

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Speaker 1: The college costs haven't been rising at maybe the clip

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Speaker 1: that we we thought they've been rising at. Can you

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Speaker 1: kind of explain that? Sure? So, you know, it gets

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Speaker 1: complicated for many of my customers, right, I mean the readers,

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Speaker 1: but I also think of them as customers because they've

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Speaker 1: pay to subscribe to The New York Times and they

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Speaker 1: pay dollars at the list price for a hardcover nonfiction book. Um,

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Speaker 1: the demographics of those folks, you know, tend to be

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Speaker 1: upper middle class. And the farther you get into the

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Speaker 1: upper middle class, um, the less likely it is that

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Speaker 1: you're going to be offered any need based financial aid.

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Speaker 1: So many of those folks are anchored to the list

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Speaker 1: price of schools because they think that's what's they're what

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Speaker 1: they're going to pay. Now that's quite often not the case,

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Speaker 1: but right that that's sort of what people anchor to,

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Speaker 1: at least in my customer base. So they're thinking, okay,

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Speaker 1: you know fifty most selective schools in America. I want

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Speaker 1: the best for my kid. That's gonna be three grand

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Speaker 1: right at the private um level. And you know, my

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Speaker 1: flagship state university probably gonna cost a hundred thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: by the time it's all over. What they do not

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Speaker 1: realize is that the average discount at private colleges is

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Speaker 1: over fifty and moreover or so of families are not

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Speaker 1: paying the full price. And that includes a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of rich kids who are getting discounts anyway. Right, So

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Speaker 1: when you say that to people, they're like, huh, how

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Speaker 1: did that happen? And then you've got to spend like

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Speaker 1: a minimum of ten minutes slowly and deliberately peeling back

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Speaker 1: the layers of the ending. I mean, essentially, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like the difference between the sticker price and the

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Speaker 1: actual costs that they pay, you know, so like, what's

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Speaker 1: going on with this? Essentially it's like a charade. You know,

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Speaker 1: why don't college is just like lower the actual tuition costs? Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the in the price, you know, the

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Speaker 1: cost of education. In a more straightforward manner, like like

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Speaker 1: why is it that we have these you know this

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Speaker 1: this inflation kind of builds into the price of the

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Speaker 1: sticker price in the massive discount. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Well you sort of have to think about it like

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Speaker 1: a business person, which we're not used to, you know,

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Speaker 1: thinking of when we think of colleges, because we don't

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Speaker 1: think of them as the viciously competitive institutions that they

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Speaker 1: actually are. Right, there's a real competition to get the

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Speaker 1: heads in the beds and to make sure you've got

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Speaker 1: you know, the right net tuition revenue per per student

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Speaker 1: to to to to make your numbers and and to

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Speaker 1: make your budget. Um. So here's what's going on there.

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Speaker 1: First of all, there is a perceived value question UM.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of at the root of some of this. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's referred to in the industry as the Chivists regal effect,

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Speaker 1: and it goes like this, and this is a legend. Right.

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Speaker 1: I was not able to confirm it with Chivists because

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Speaker 1: they want to talk to me about it. But the

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Speaker 1: way estrangely right, like any legend that has to do

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Speaker 1: with a liquor, I'm I'm down for ye. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: guess they did not want to pierce the bubble of

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Speaker 1: you know, whatever it was that they thought was over

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Speaker 1: and around their brand. But as the legend goes, one day,

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Speaker 1: many years ago, in a galaxy far far away, um,

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Speaker 1: someone at chivist Regal decided to you know, double the

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Speaker 1: price overnight to try and increase the brand sort of

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Speaker 1: perceived value on on the liquor store shelf. And sure enough, um,

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Speaker 1: the company's revenues you know, increased by like way more

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Speaker 1: than they expected it to, because all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: people thought that Schivis Regal was better than it used

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Speaker 1: to be, even though nothing changed inside the bottle. Right.

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Speaker 1: And so the lesson that higher education professionals took from

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Speaker 1: this is that if you have a high list price,

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Speaker 1: people will think that you are worth something worth more. Right.

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Speaker 1: And then when you give them a discount, particularly when

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Speaker 1: they don't need the discount, right, particularly they can afford

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Speaker 1: to pay the full price, that family will feel like

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Speaker 1: they've gotten a bonus, maybe a gold star pat on

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Speaker 1: the head for having raised a Yeah. Right, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is marketing. This is marketing, and the other thing

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Speaker 1: is um. At any given institution, particularly the more selective

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Speaker 1: ones that still discount this way, they are always holding

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Speaker 1: out hope that some percentage of people will will turn

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Speaker 1: up each year who are in fact both willing and

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Speaker 1: able to pay the full price and not just able. Right,

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Speaker 1: And so what kind of family is that? Well, if

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Speaker 1: you are a super affluent family and you have no

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Speaker 1: idea that these discounts exist, and you don't really care

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Speaker 1: all that much about money, and you're not careful, you'll

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Speaker 1: just write the check, right, and you'll you'll never be

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Speaker 1: the wiser. Right. So schools like to take advantage of

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Speaker 1: families like that. Um, then there are the families who

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Speaker 1: are like writing this check against the bank of thank god. Right,

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Speaker 1: So you know, imagine yourself, Um, you know, just hoping

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Speaker 1: against hope that your your your kid will go to

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Speaker 1: two Lane University the same way that you did, right,

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Speaker 1: And you know that the place is much more selective

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Speaker 1: than it used to be. And maybe your kid has

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Speaker 1: had a rough go of you know, freshman sophomore year

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Speaker 1: in high school, but they've like totally turned it around.

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Speaker 1: Junior year. They managed to get you know, a seat

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Speaker 1: at an s a T test center and once you

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Speaker 1: know it, they scored a fifteen twenty and to Lane says,

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Speaker 1: you know what, we're going to take a shot on

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Speaker 1: on your kid, and we're gonna give you the benefit

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Speaker 1: of the the doubt. We believe in your family and you

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Speaker 1: know in its tradition of coming to school here, but

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Speaker 1: no discount for you. And you're like, wow, I can't

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Speaker 1: believe we pulled this off. Um, the kid's gonna go

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Speaker 1: to Tulane. We don't care what it costs, right, bank

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Speaker 1: of thank God. And then they're all of these families

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Speaker 1: from outside the United States, and you know, many of

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Speaker 1: them are kazillionaires, and they don't care much about the

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Speaker 1: price either. They just want a degree from a relatively

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Speaker 1: brain brand name institution or you know, just one that

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Speaker 1: says America on it. And if you can attract enough

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Speaker 1: of those folks, particularly now that there is someone in

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Speaker 1: the White House who is not as hostile um to

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Speaker 1: people showing up here from outside of the United States

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Speaker 1: in general, um, you have reason to hope. Right. So

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Speaker 1: those are all the reasons you keep the list price high. Ron,

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about college enrollment in COVID. Obviously we've seen

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Speaker 1: college enrollment fall because of the pandemic, and you actually

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Speaker 1: mentioned to study in your book that six professors and

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Speaker 1: administrators have said that their courses are worse in virtual era.

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Speaker 1: So how how do you think that college, Um, the

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Speaker 1: college value proposition has changed because of COVID. Well, so,

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Speaker 1: you know, we should stop and think about how we

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Speaker 1: define decline, right, because in different tiers of undergraduate education,

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Speaker 1: there's been different levels of decline. And at the you know,

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Speaker 1: let's call it two D most selective colleges and institutions

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Speaker 1: in America, the you know, the ones that have stayed

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Speaker 1: open more or less, um, you know, have not seen

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Speaker 1: huge declines, you know, sort of devastating revenue declines. And

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Speaker 1: the thing that's interesting about it is that you know,

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Speaker 1: people are showing up to pay the same price as

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Speaker 1: they paid last year for the most part. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's been a few discounts here and there, but but

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Speaker 1: not many. Right, And so I guess here's what I

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Speaker 1: have to say about that. Right, Um, what happened in

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Speaker 1: the spring of is that everybody got sent home and

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you know, the three main reasons

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Speaker 1: for going to college, right, the education, the kinship you know,

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Speaker 1: the friends you make in, the mentors you require, and

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Speaker 1: the credential. Two of those things were stripped away. As

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Speaker 1: you mentioned in the question, right, education got a lot worse.

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Speaker 1: Everybody acknowledges that kinship is like blown to smithereens because

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Speaker 1: you're not near your friends or your mentors anymore. Only

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Speaker 1: the credential is left. And you know it's some question, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know how much the credential matters? Right if you

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Speaker 1: are a food and beverage major at Cornell University, right

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Speaker 1: you're majoring in hotel management, you know, at Arizona State

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Speaker 1: or something like, how much is that credential going to

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Speaker 1: be worth right now? When those industries have been cut

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Speaker 1: to ribbons? So you know, the the value is not

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Speaker 1: what it once was, which makes it somewhat surprising, right

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Speaker 1: that all of these people came running back to campus

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Speaker 1: um in in August and September against all you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of public health reason, and you know thousands and

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Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of them got sick, right, So why

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Speaker 1: did they do this? Well, you know, because the education

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Speaker 1: had gotten worse, because the kinship was gone, and you know,

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Speaker 1: people were desperate to continue to persist with this experience. Now,

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Speaker 1: if I'm writing to check up to eighty thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: a year, I ain't doing it. It doesn't doesn't make

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Speaker 1: any sense to me right that this is this is

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Speaker 1: not a normal college experience. This is not what I

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Speaker 1: signed up for for my kids. And as somebody who

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Speaker 1: wrote a book about gap years back in, I already

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Speaker 1: think the college is wasted on most eighteen year old

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Speaker 1: So you know, my kid is my kid is sitting

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Speaker 1: this one out and and going to do something different

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Speaker 1: for a while. Ron. This has been a great start

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Speaker 1: to our conversation. We've got so much more when we

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Speaker 1: talk about with you. I mean, we want to talk

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Speaker 1: next about financial aid, you know, like how it is

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Speaker 1: that parents and students can get that fifty discount like you,

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Speaker 1: like you mentioned there earlier, And we're gonna get to

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Speaker 1: all of that right after the break. All right, we're back.

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Speaker 1: We're talking with Ron Lieber about how to get a

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Speaker 1: better deal when you're going to college. And uh, you know, Ron,

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Speaker 1: one of the things actually that that recently changed, um

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Speaker 1: it was surrounded financial aid was the expected family contribution

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Speaker 1: when you fill out the facts. Sadly that happened after

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Speaker 1: the publication of your book, but you wrote about it

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Speaker 1: in the New York Times. Um, since then, So what

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Speaker 1: effect is that change in the fast they're gonna have

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Speaker 1: on families? Sure. So let's start by, you know, framing

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about here. We are talking about the

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Speaker 1: need based financial aid system the facts that does not

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Speaker 1: have much of anything to do with merit aid. Um,

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Speaker 1: whole different way that meritate and those discounts are awarded. Right,

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Speaker 1: So what we're talking about here is need based aid

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Speaker 1: in order to get aid from the federal government. So

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Speaker 1: in order to you know, access the PEL grant or

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Speaker 1: the Federal student loan program or Federal Works Study funds

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Speaker 1: for jobs on campus, or a parent plus loan, you've

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Speaker 1: got to fill out one of these fafts of things.

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Speaker 1: And people hate the facts. The FAFTSA is arguably more

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Speaker 1: complicated than the ten forty income tax form, and you know,

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Speaker 1: the kid gets involved and the parents are involved. Some

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Speaker 1: parents refused to do it, and if you're a kid

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Speaker 1: who's strange from your parents or a parent, it gets

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Speaker 1: very complicated, you know, super super messy stuff. So, you

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Speaker 1: know the most important thing that's happened is that the

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Speaker 1: FAFTS is going to be simplified, which is a good thing. Right,

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be easier to fill this thing out. A

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Speaker 1: couple other things they are happening. Um, it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: easier for more people to get pell grants, and the

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Speaker 1: pell grants are going to get a little bit larger, right,

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Speaker 1: so people with lower incomes gonna have an easier time. Now,

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Speaker 1: there's some other things that are changing that have caused

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Speaker 1: you know, people in the you know, middle class and

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Speaker 1: upper middle class to wring their hands. One of the

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Speaker 1: provisions has to do with the fact that at if

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Speaker 1: you've got two kids in college at once, you're no

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Speaker 1: longer going to get the same break that you used to.

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Speaker 1: Now that's according to you know, the legislation, and the

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Speaker 1: federal law doesn't mean that private colleges are necessarily going

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Speaker 1: to do the same thing with their financial aid formulas.

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Speaker 1: So if you're thinking about applying to a school that

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Speaker 1: only relives on the fasts, you know, then you may

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Speaker 1: need to be thinking about that if you've got two

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Speaker 1: kids in their close in age. So much remains to

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Speaker 1: be seen and you know sort of exactly how that's

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Speaker 1: going to be interpreted, And there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: people already trying to petition, you know, the federal government

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Speaker 1: to uh to change that somehow, right, whether through legislation

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Speaker 1: or some other form. So um, you know, remains to

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Speaker 1: be seen. I think exactly how that one's going to

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Speaker 1: play out, but it's definitely one to watch. Doesn't go

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Speaker 1: into effect for another year and a half. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: certainly a work in progress. It's kind of a moving target.

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Speaker 1: I guess as you have kids, you know, approaching college age. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, you're you're talking about need based aid

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Speaker 1: here and then earlier, you know, you detailed how the

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Speaker 1: financial aid system has changed in recent years, and you know,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about merit aid. Uh. So you know that

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Speaker 1: is kind of the it seems that that's the predominant

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Speaker 1: form of financial assistance these days. And so what is

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Speaker 1: it that led to that change? And how com parents

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Speaker 1: and students uh navigate getting more merit aid money? Sure? So, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, I like that you phrase that question by

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Speaker 1: pointing out the history because it gives an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: sort of tell the story of um, not how it

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Speaker 1: started exactly, but but how it spread and became so complicated.

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Speaker 1: So imagine yourself in the state of Ohio in the

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Speaker 1: early nineties, and there's a whole bunch of really good,

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Speaker 1: you know, small liberal arts colleges, so many in fact,

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Speaker 1: that they're really you know, beating the smithereens out of

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Speaker 1: one another. Uh, you know too in the competition for students,

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Speaker 1: and also a great public university system there. Right, So

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Speaker 1: imagine being you know, kind of near the bottom of

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Speaker 1: that food chain. You know, imagine being oh i oh

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Speaker 1: Wesleyan University. You've developed a well earned reputation for um,

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Speaker 1: you know, being a serious party school that is not

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Speaker 1: particularly serious about other things. Uh. You want to increase

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Speaker 1: your prestige because a lot of families just won't go

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Speaker 1: near you, um because you know they think their kids

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Speaker 1: will end up being alcoholics. Right, So you've got to

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Speaker 1: do something about this situation. Um, So what you do is,

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Speaker 1: you know, after this year's crop of kids take the

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Speaker 1: p s a t s. You start going out and

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Speaker 1: you buy the names of the kids who have better

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Speaker 1: p s a t scores and the kids you normally

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Speaker 1: attract into your applicant of pool, and you send them

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Speaker 1: a note saying, hey, we've got we've got our eye

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Speaker 1: on you. We know you're special. If you apply here,

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Speaker 1: and we'll let you apply here for free with no

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Speaker 1: application fee. If you apply over here, we'll give you

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Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars if you come off off the off

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Speaker 1: the list price. Right, no matter how much money your

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Speaker 1: family has, no matter how much money your family needs. Right,

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Speaker 1: So somebody starts going and throwing around, um, five figures

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Speaker 1: of money when nobody else is doing that, that's going

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Speaker 1: to have an impact. Right. It worked. It works so

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Speaker 1: well that competitors had to respond in kind because Dennison

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Speaker 1: did not like Ohio Wesley and stealing more than its

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Speaker 1: fair share of students, and Kenyan didn't like Dennison stealing kids,

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, Kenyan didn't like College of Worcester

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Speaker 1: doing the same thing either, And then Oberlin got really

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Speaker 1: annoyed that Kenyan started to do it, and pretty soon

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Speaker 1: everybody in the state of Ohio is doing this, and

427
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 1: it spreads not quickly but over time. So, right, you

428
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 1: flash forward twenty years or so, and all but the

429
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: fifty or sixty most selective colleges and universities, both public

430
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,880
Speaker 1: and private. That works a little differently, public and private,

431
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,239
Speaker 1: All but the fifty or sixty most selectives in the

432
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,879
Speaker 1: country are offering at least some meritid Right, So you

433
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 1: take that enormous list of schools that are doing this,

434
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 1: and those two divide up into segments right, there are

435
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: the schools that only offer merit aid to a couple

436
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 1: of dozen people a year. Then their schools that only

437
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 1: offer it to a couple hundred of you know, new

438
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 1: entrants a year. Then it's you know, schools that offer

439
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: it to maybe half of the new people who come

440
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: in each year. And then there are schools now where

441
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 1: everybody gets a pony, right, where everybody gets a pat

442
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 1: on the head. And the challenge for families is to

443
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 1: figure out ahead of time which kind of school you're

444
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 1: dealing with, what sort of reasonable expectation they ought to have,

445
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 1: you know, for a discount offer, and how to sort

446
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 1: that out. And it is not easy. It's another five

447
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 1: or ten minutes of you know, verbiage to kind of

448
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 1: even begin to explain to people how to sort it out,

449
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: all right, So it does kind of beg the question,

450
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: how how can people find out what sort of merit

451
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: aid they're likely to receive from a college are interested in.

452
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't want to, you know, make you

453
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 1: drawn on for ten minutes necessarily, but that is the

454
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 1: question that people are going to ask, Like, if I'm

455
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 1: interested in particular college, how do I know what sort

456
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 1: of you know, aid to expect. Yeah, so there are

457
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: a couple of things that people should know. UM. First

458
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:04,360
Speaker 1: of all, the Net Price Calculator, which all schools are

459
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 1: required to have on their websites somewhere, is a way

460
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: to predict what kind, if any, of need based financial

461
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: aid you will be offered, so totally worth filling those out.

462
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: In some instances, the schools will allow you to input

463
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: your g p A and your test scores and will

464
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 1: attempt to predict what kind of merit aid offer you

465
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 1: might get as well. So it's worth checking the Net

466
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: Price Calculator to see if it is in fact a

467
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: merit aid prediction engine. In most instances it is not,

468
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: but sometimes it is, so you know, worth a shot.

469
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 1: So that's number one. Number two, by all means, check

470
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 1: the college's website UM to see if they say, you know,

471
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: what percentage of people got merit aid last year, what

472
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 1: sort of characteristics did they have? At some of the

473
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 1: more hard up schools, um Wabash College in Indiana, Lake

474
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: Forest in Illinois, the University of Alabama does this as well.

475
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: They just tell you straight up in like a grid chard,

476
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: you know, if you got a thirty four on your

477
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: A C. T. And a three point nine g p A. Um,

478
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: you know, this is how much of a discount you'll

479
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: be offered. And so that causes a lot of people

480
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: who really want to, you know, go to the University

481
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: of Alabama to take their S A T S six

482
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: times to you know, sort of try to get their

483
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: score high enough to get the better deal is you know,

484
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: so it has some unintended effects. Uh. Next step, and

485
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 1: this is not the last step, because why should this

486
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 1: be simple work at all? Um? The next step involves

487
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: looking for something called the Common Data Set, which most

488
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,880
Speaker 1: but not all schools make available. The Common Data Set

489
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 1: contains all of the information that these schools pass on

490
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: to ranking organizations like US News and World Report. Um,

491
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: it's worth reading the entire Common Data Set if you

492
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: are even at all interested in any institution, no matter

493
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: how much you are able or willing to pay, because

494
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of terrific data in there. But in

495
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 1: section H two A, H yes, yes, yeah right, it's like, um,

496
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: you just like go right to H two A, and

497
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: that will give you some information about how much meritide

498
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 1: is being offered to families who have no financial need whatsoever.

499
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 1: So that's a pretty good indicator of what's going on,

500
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: you know, is the school offering meridiate to everybody who

501
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: has no need or just like you know, ten percent

502
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 1: of the people who have no need? And what are

503
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: the characteristics of the people in the class in every

504
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: entering class who are are in the top um, you know,

505
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: what's their g p A, what's their test scores? That

506
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: is information you can get from the common data set.

507
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 1: And so from there you can begin to sort of guess, right,

508
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: what is going to happen. This is not the end.

509
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: There's at least two more steps, shall we yea, let's

510
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: do alright? Two more steps? All right? Um, because this

511
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 1: is so confusing because I have had to prattle on

512
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: for so long, not one, not to not three, but

513
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: four that I know of for profit entities have started

514
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: up just in the last couple of years to try

515
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: to provide some predictability um or match making around this.

516
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 1: Uh tuition fit dot com. That was the one that

517
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: seemed the most like the coolest idea from from what

518
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: I read in your book, like tuition fit seems awesome. Yeah,

519
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: so the big idea is like you send in your

520
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: you know, award letter to tuition fit it anonymizes everything,

521
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,719
Speaker 1: puts it into a database, and then all of a sudden, Um,

522
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: you've got some context. Right, So you know, Dennison College

523
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: Dennison University in Ohio offers you, uh, you know, twenty

524
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: one dollars off and you've got a you know, thirty

525
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: two on your on your a C T. Uh. You

526
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: can go in there and see, oh, look there's a

527
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: there's a student with statistics like mine and and she

528
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: got twenty five thousand dollars off. And uh, I'm a boy, right,

529
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: so should I be more valuable because Dennison's like female

530
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: or like what's going on here? Right? You know the

531
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: fact that I play an oboe and and maybe she

532
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: doesn't like Z can a matter? It couldn't matter, right,

533
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: you know, you know it gives you a little bit

534
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: of anecdotal context. You know, it's not like scientifically, but

535
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: get yeah, you get to hear from people. It's sort

536
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: of like glass door, but for colleges. That's a really

537
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: good comparison. It's about like that. And then um, there's

538
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: a company called edmund E d M I T. There's

539
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: a new one called merit More. And Debbie Schwartz, who

540
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: runs the Pain for college one oh one Facebook group,

541
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: which is indispensable to my mind for anybody who wants

542
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: to geek out on this um. She's got her own

543
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: um hustle there where she u has some merit aid

544
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: prediction figures that she generates using common data sets and

545
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: other tools. Right, so there's like four startups in the area.

546
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: And then finally right, I want all of my readers

547
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: to act and behave as if we exist in the

548
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: world that we wanted to be, and not the world

549
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: as it is. So I'm encouraging everybody. I'm trying to

550
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: raise an army. Essentially. I think everybody should innocently, but

551
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: not so innocently, call these schools each September and say, hey,

552
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: I don't have any real way to predict what kind

553
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: of merit aid my kid might be offered here, And

554
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: you seem to think that I should be willing to

555
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: apply without having any idea what the price is. And

556
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: that doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.

557
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: Doesn't make sense to you, No, I didn't think it

558
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: made any sense. Can you give me just a you know,

559
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: non binding merit aid preread given my kids you know,

560
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: activities and s A T S and g p A

561
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: and if they won't do it, if they refused to,

562
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: then you might say, oh, that's so interesting because College

563
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: of Worcester has been doing that for years and Whitman

564
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: College just started doing it a year ago, and you

565
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: don't want to do that? Huh? Why? I love I

566
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: love that tip, Ron, because it's really it's taken things

567
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,719
Speaker 1: into your own hands and saying and kind of asking

568
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: for the information when it's not readily available. I think

569
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: I think that's like wonderful advice. I mean, exactly, tell

570
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: them I sent you and if they won't um, and

571
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: if they won't cough up the information, come and tell

572
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: me at Ron Liebert dot com and I'll call them up.

573
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: I'll call them. I love that. The fifth point here

574
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: is is the Ron lieberway, which is this is uh

575
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: calling for more transparency when it comes to meritate and marketologies.

576
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,959
Speaker 1: I love it. Uh. Well, you know, let's let's talk

577
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: about real quickly here, like getting what you pay for.

578
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: You know, you spend a lot of time in your

579
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: book writing about value. We're all about getting you know,

580
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: the most bang for your buck when it comes to

581
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: higher education. So like, what should students and parents be

582
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: looking for? In a college. And I know you cover

583
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: a lot of this in your book, so if you

584
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: want to pages dedicated to it, but if you wanted

585
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: to pict like a few of your favorites here, I'm

586
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: curious to to hear your thoughts here. Well, it starts

587
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: with the framing question. Right, Um, you can't have that

588
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: conversation before you have defined what college means to you.

589
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: And this is not some like existential philosophy one on

590
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: one exercise. It's actually a real non rhetorical question because

591
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: what I found repeatedly as I ran laps of the

592
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: country was that there were a whole bunch of people

593
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: out there or you know, flinging hundreds of thousands of

594
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: dollars around, that hadn't really stopped to ask themselves like

595
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: what is the definition of success here? And how much

596
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: is enough? Right? What is college for? Anyway? And it

597
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: turns out the colleges for three things we name checked

598
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: him before. Right, college is about the intellectual roller coaster ride,

599
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: It's about the learning. It's about having your brain broken

600
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: apart and then reassembled by an expert practitioner into like

601
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: a bigger, better version of what it used to be. Right, So,

602
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: college is about the education. Number one. Number two, College

603
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: is about the kinship. It's about finding the people you

604
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: never could have imagined existing in the world and making

605
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: them your best friends who will pick you up on

606
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: their shoulders and carry you through life. And it's about

607
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: finding the mentors um who will do the same thing.

608
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: But maybe they're like dragging you by the neck, you know,

609
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: into a bigger and better version of yourself. Right, So

610
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: that's number two. Number three is the credential. Maybe it's

611
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: a baseline credential that allows you to you know, grasp

612
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,479
Speaker 1: hold of the middle class in a way that your

613
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: family has not been able to before. Or maybe you're

614
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: reaching way up high for like the super name brand

615
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: institution where the degree will mean something in an industry

616
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: that your family or your community has absolutely no hope

617
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: of ever accessing without that degree. Right, So you've got

618
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: to know what you're coming for and and once you do,

619
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: you can shop for that right Because if you could

620
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: care less about learning anything, then it doesn't matter whether

621
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: there are graduate students teaching all of the introductory level courses,

622
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: because that's not what you're there for. Right, Like, imagine

623
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: yourself as the you know, third generation child of a

624
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: casket owning manufacturer in Southern Indiana, right, and you're gonna

625
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: go to the right So you're gonna go Yeah, so

626
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: you're gonna go to the Did you know the Southern

627
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: Indianas like the world capital of casket manager. No, no, no,

628
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: no way, no way. Back when I was at Fast

629
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: Company Magazine in the nineties, I went to visit one

630
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: of the casket companies. It was awesome. Um, you can

631
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: put that story in the show notes of you will

632
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: so right. So, so, you're going to the Kelly School

633
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: of Business, flagship State School, Indiana University undergraduate and you

634
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: really care about the learning because you're gonna learn what

635
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: you need to know on the job right from your parents,

636
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: from your grandparents. Right, They're gonna teach you everything that

637
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: you need to know. What you really want out of

638
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: the Kelly School Business is not the credential, because the

639
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: credential doesn't mean much. You just want to build the

640
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: best possible network, right. You want a whole bunch of

641
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: people who are gonna know you, remember you, and when

642
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: they die or their parents die, they're gonna get your casket.

643
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: They're gonna call you up. You're going to offer them

644
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: the friends and family discount code, and your Family Casket

645
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: Company is going to be known because you were in

646
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: the most social sorority. You were in the most business

647
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: oriented fraternity. You are at the Kelly School of Business

648
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: for the kinship and the kinship alone. Right, So that's

649
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: a way to shop and I totally approve of that.

650
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: Do whatever you want, right, but don't go into the

651
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: process without having asked the fundamental question and answered it

652
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: about what college is for. I love that. All right, Hey, Ron,

653
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: we got a few more super practical questions about uh,

654
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: cutting college costs, and we'll get to those right after

655
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: this break. All Right, we are back. We're talking with

656
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: Ron Lieber and his most recent book, The Price You

657
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: Pay for College, And you know, Ron, before the break,

658
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: we're talking about financial aid, and now we're going to

659
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: kind of dive into some more practical advice to maybe

660
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 1: potentially get the price down on college and real quick.

661
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned in the first section there the

662
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 1: gap year. You said you mentioned you wrote a book

663
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: back in about the gap year. Do you feel that

664
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: that's a good idea? Is is a gap here a

665
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: good idea for folks to potentially save some money, to

666
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: not burn, not waste that first year in college and

667
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: then specifically to UH and you're like, now with COVID,

668
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: does it make even more sense you know, due to

669
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: the pandemic. Yes, yes, one thousand times yes. And if

670
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: we're gonna limit it just to you know, kind of

671
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: pushing that the answer through a financial prism, like, let

672
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: me try and do it that way. So you know,

673
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: first the obvious, right, if you can stay in your

674
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,919
Speaker 1: house if it's safe to do so, you know, psychologically

675
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: and physically, and it's not for every every kid and

676
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,320
Speaker 1: every family. Um, if your parents or parents are willing

677
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: to let you live there, hopefully rent free, maybe even

678
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 1: continue to provide the food. Right, you can go work

679
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: for twelve months and make twenty grand and you know,

680
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: put it away and that that's that's one five of

681
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: of the cost of college. You know, most flagship state universities.

682
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: That's a big deal, right, go do that if you

683
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: need the money. Um, you can work for nine months

684
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: and you know, save half the money and take the

685
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,919
Speaker 1: other half and go have an adventure someplace. Um, these

686
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: are things that you can do, and so you know,

687
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: it's it's worthwhile for all all sorts of develop developmental

688
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: reasons which will leave aside for now. Um, but if

689
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: you believe in extracting the most value that you possibly

690
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 1: can from the classroom in particular, people who take gap

691
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: years get better grades than those who don't. This has

692
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: not been proven with like real PhDs connecting science on

693
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: the matter. Right, So, um, you know, if you want

694
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: to extract more value from the education, take a gap year,

695
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: go to college when you're nineteen, not when you're eighteen. Uh,

696
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: there still seems to be the possibility that, you know,

697
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: the private colleges and universities in particular will give you

698
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: a better deal on financial aid if they don't follow

699
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: the you know, the new federal formula if you have

700
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: um overlap. Right, So, if you've got a sibling and

701
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 1: you are three years older than your sibling, if you

702
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: take a gap year, you're essentially adding one more year

703
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: to the potential years of overlap where the two of

704
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: your in college. If your sibling does not take a

705
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: gap here, Um, so you want to think about that too,

706
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: you could literally, you know, create another five figure is

707
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: worth of need based aid eligibility for some families if

708
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: the privates continue to run their aid formulas the same way. So,

709
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: that's a lot of ifs, right, So they're assuming that

710
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: we're thinking about it, your younger brother or sister might

711
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 1: also go to the same school, and that's why they're

712
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: gonna offer you more money. So just in general, the

713
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: way the formula works now, um, and this is what

714
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: the facts that proposes to change. But the you know,

715
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: private universities may not follow it is that you know,

716
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: logic would dictate if you've got two kids in college

717
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: at once, you can afford to pay less than if

718
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: you only have one kid in college at once. Right,

719
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: So if you increase the number of years of overlap,

720
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: that increases the number of years that you have those

721
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: extra discounts, assuming both colleges are kind of operating with

722
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 1: similar formulas. Gotcha. Yeah, so Ron community college at least

723
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 1: for a couple of years of your college education has

724
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 1: always been a popular suggestion as a way for people

725
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: to save money. But you actually say that going that

726
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: route could cost you more than it saves. Why is that.

727
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: I am not trying to discourage people from going to

728
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 1: community college. I am only trying to make sure that

729
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: people are realistic about what actually happens. Right. So the

730
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is that it's a pretty small

731
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: percentage of people who started community college with the intent

732
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: of getting to for year school, um, you know, and

733
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: and graduated a reasonable period of time. It's a small

734
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 1: pretendage to people who actually pull it off. So if

735
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: you're doing this as a hack right, as a way

736
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: to save money, I'm all for it. But you need

737
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 1: to go in with eyes wide open. And here's what

738
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: that means, right. You've got to show up with a

739
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: full head esteem. You've got to have an intended destination

740
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 1: in mind, preferably a a you know, major at that school. UM.

741
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: You've got to know at the very beginning what classes

742
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: you're going to need at the community college. You need

743
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 1: to be first in line to make sure you get

744
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 1: those classes. If you're going to be working for money

745
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: on the side, you need to have a job that

746
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: you know allows you to to put your your classes,

747
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: you know, priority one, right, So you get all your

748
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: classes and you're constantly in touch with an advisor at

749
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: the community college to make absolutely sure that these classes

750
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: are going to transfer to your intended destination. You have

751
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: a different advisor at the destination UM in the admissions office,

752
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: checking in with you three times a term. To make

753
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: sure that nothing's changed, everything's on track, you're gonna get

754
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: your credit um and then if you know that you

755
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: want to be a computer science major at the intended destination,

756
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: you've got to be certain that the chair of that

757
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 1: comp side department is absolutely positively going to improve it,

758
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: going to approve your prerequisites, because if you've got to

759
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 1: retake a bunch of stuff, then it takes longer, you're

760
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: spending more money and the savings is decreased. So you know,

761
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: it's not always simple. That's so smart. Yeah, it kind

762
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: of goes back to knowing your why. Like as long

763
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: as you can keep in mind what like why it

764
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: is that you are going to the community college, and

765
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: you keep that forefront of your mind, then yeah, it

766
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: could be a great hack. Like you said, uh right,

767
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 1: Is is there a good rule of thumb like for

768
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: how many school that families should visit or apply to

769
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: in order to make sure that you know they're getting

770
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: the getting the best price possible. Yeah, you know, I'm

771
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: struggling with this some personally because my daughters in ninth grade.

772
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: I don't take much stock in this notion that you're

773
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: gonna do damage to your children by talking to them

774
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: about college, you know, before their junior year, that it's

775
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: like too much, too soon, too much pressure. I mean,

776
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: these kids live in the world. They already understand that, um,

777
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 1: you know, college exists, and they're thinking about it and

778
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: excited about it. And so you know, I might take

779
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: our daughter to you know, see her first school sort

780
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 1: of informally in a couple of weeks actually, um, you know,

781
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: in the second half of her first year in high school.

782
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: So like yeah, right, Well, it's just you know, it's

783
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: it literally pays to to tour these places carefully and

784
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: not rush around on a tour in an information session

785
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: and in and out in three hours, right, And so

786
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: that takes time. Right, It takes money, and it takes

787
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: resources too if you're doing it in person, but it

788
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: certainly takes time. I'm to like really do the homework

789
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: on you know, a couple of dozen places to begin

790
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: to think like, huh, you know, big versus small. Maybe

791
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: I should go see some places, right, urban versus rural, right,

792
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: single sex, non single sex right, small lebal arts you know,

793
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: large enormous university, right, So you know, we can take

794
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: a year or two to kind of narrow that down

795
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: or begin to think about it, and then right, particularly

796
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: this year and last year to this was the case.

797
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: You know, there there there's a higher probability of like

798
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: outsize surprises financially because all the algorithms that the school's

799
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: normally use to you know, offer up discounts and you know,

800
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: sort people out. Um, they're having trouble predicting how people

801
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: are going to behave in the middle of a global pandemic.

802
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: No surprise there, right, And so schools that come up

803
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 1: real short in March and able to start to get worried,

804
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 1: you know, they're gonna throw a lot of money around

805
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: and they just might throw it at you. And so

806
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: you know, the more schools you've apply to, the better

807
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:06,760
Speaker 1: chance you have of having some kind of awesome financial surprise. Nice. Uh,

808
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: and all, we got one more question for you, Iron

809
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: you talk about independent college counselors Towards the end of

810
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: the book, When does it make sense for a family

811
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: to hire someone to help them make these big decisions

812
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 1: because obviously your book is like pages long, um, and

813
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: it feels like one of these things for a lot

814
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: of families that's overwhelming. So yeah, should they be hiring

815
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 1: someone who's in their corner who knows more than they do.

816
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: I'm a big believer in pain for professional services UM

817
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: when the stakes are high, and the stakes are high. Here,

818
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: the thing that I have not solved for that pained

819
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: me greatly in the writing of the Price you Pay

820
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 1: for college is that it still doesn't feel to me

821
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: like there is a fail safe way to go looking

822
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: for an independent college counselor and know for sure just

823
00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: how smart they are on UM need based ay and

824
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 1: merit aid. Because let's face it, right, you know, if

825
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: you're going to hang a shingle as an independent college counselor,

826
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: what you want to do is, you know, charges as

827
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: much money as you possibly can. But the people who

828
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: need financial aid or the people who you know feel

829
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 1: like they need merit aid, they can't afford to pay

830
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 1: you a ten retainer, right, And so it doesn't make

831
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: a lot of financial sense for an independent counselor to

832
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,439
Speaker 1: focus much on that part of the market. And so

833
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: the question that becomes, well, how do I find the

834
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: practitioner who is an expert on a family like mind

835
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: that earns a hundred seventy two dollars a year is

836
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: going to have, you know, some financial need maybe a

837
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: private universities, but probably not a ton um but is

838
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: super interested in merit aid, Like where is my expert

839
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: that really understands that part of the market. And you

840
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: know the answer to that question is there aren't actually

841
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: all that many of them. Um, I wish there were more.

842
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: It's almost like there needs to be a tuition fit

843
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: for advisors, like like you know, I mean if there's

844
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 1: some sort of database or something like that where folks

845
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 1: could kind of give their feedback on, you know, with

846
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: their profiles as to how much money that they were

847
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: able to retain. Yes, exactly right, and so um, there

848
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: are four or five associations of independent college counselors, and

849
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: one of them has a subgroup of people who are

850
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: really interested in this stuff. But I can't even get

851
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: that association to make the names of those members public

852
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: anywhere on their you know, consumer search page. I tried, Right,

853
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: you would think that that like that would be a

854
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 1: resource worth making available and shining a light on, but

855
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 1: but it hasn't worked yet to my great frustration. Well, anyway,

856
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 1: if people want to email me, Um, you know, I

857
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: I know a handful of people who who I know

858
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: are good and I don't mind throwing some names out.

859
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 1: So you know, I met Ron Lieber dot com. I'm

860
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,479
Speaker 1: easy to find, Ron, You're the best. And obviously people

861
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: can find you at Ron Lieber dot com. They can

862
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,439
Speaker 1: find you in the New York Times, you know, on

863
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: on a weekly basis, and they can find your new book,

864
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,399
Speaker 1: the price you pay for college, anything else you wanna

865
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 1: tell folks, tell our listeners about you. No, just that

866
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: I'm you know, glad to have this out there. I

867
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 1: am here to help. And um my feeling about this

868
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: after it was all said and done was hope more

869
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 1: than anything else. You know. I went to a lot

870
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: of schools, and I could imagine my daughter. I'm happy

871
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: and thriving. It's just about all of them. That's awesome. Yeah,

872
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear that that even through all of this. Yeah,

873
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: you were able to land on hope at the end

874
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: of it. So Ron, you rock. Thank you so much

875
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: for this, uh this conversation, and we appreciate it. Man,

876
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: I was great to be here. Thank you, all right,

877
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 1: Matt Ron Lieber just rocketed up the list my favorite

878
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: human beings. What a fun conversation and just enlightening. Um

879
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: just he brought so much passion, wisdom, and energy to

880
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: this conversation. I honestly wish like our oldest kids, like

881
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: my oldest daughter was older, like even older almost, so

882
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 1: I could put some of this to work, like immediately. Yes,

883
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 1: like some of what I learned I want to implement.

884
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: I think sometimes when you sit on knowledge like us,

885
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: is just like, well, this is good to know now

886
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 1: that like I wish I could put this to use,

887
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: you know, like I wantant to start saving myself money

888
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: now makes me want to adopt a fourteen year old

889
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: do it? Dude? I can implement it, but that would

890
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: you know, throw off some other family dynamics. But yeah,

891
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: I talked to your wife about that first before I

892
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 1: need one. Um. But yeah, what was your big takeaway

893
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: from our convo with Ron? Well? I liked at the

894
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: end he we you know, we asked about community college,

895
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: and he specifically, you know, made a point to say

896
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: that he wasn't against community college in order to save money,

897
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: but how a high percentage of folks who go to

898
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 1: community college don't actually end up transferring to a state

899
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: or private school. Uh. And he said that if that

900
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: is your approach, if that's what you're gonna do, you're

901
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: gonna go to your local community college to save some money,

902
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: get some of the pro acquisites, some of the base

903
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: classes out of the way. You need to make sure

904
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: that you have in mind your goal, your end goal.

905
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: You need to know your why. And specifically he said

906
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,240
Speaker 1: how it's good to have a specific school in mind.

907
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 1: You know, like you're not just going to community college

908
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 1: to save money, so that you don't have to pay

909
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: that money to where to what school? You know, like,

910
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 1: have a have a school in mind, even have a

911
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,439
Speaker 1: specific degree in mind. There's nothing worse than not having

912
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: credits to transfer when you're like, because this is totally

913
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: gonna work out, you're paying twice, uh and you're doing

914
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: twice to work twice the money. But my gosh, and

915
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 1: and he recommended to specifically be in touch with an

916
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: advisor at that target school, be in touch with some

917
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 1: checking within multiple times every semester. Make sure that the

918
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: classes you're taking, make sure that the classes you're you're

919
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 1: signing up for for next semester that those are all

920
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: going to apply to whatever degree that you're looking to

921
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: pursue at that specific school. It's going to give you

922
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: so much clarity. Uh. And you're on a path, you're

923
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: you're you're on a track, versus just kind of going

924
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: to community college and feeling like, all right, let's I'm

925
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 1: gonna lay in somewhere and not totally sure where. But

926
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,839
Speaker 1: that has a ton of negative consequences down the road

927
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 1: because things may not line up, those credits may not count. Yeah. Well,

928
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: I think my big takeaway from our our conversation here,

929
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: let me hear it, was that the average discount at

930
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: a private school, it's like it's so big, that's huge, right,

931
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 1: And so I think like that the biggest thing, the

932
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 1: way that translates for or our listeners out there, is

933
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 1: if your kid is excited to go to a school,

934
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: don't necessarily let that sticker price make you think that

935
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 1: you can't afford it, because that sticker price doesn't reflect

936
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: what most people pay to go to that university. And

937
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: I think sometimes people can be like, man, that school

938
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: is really expensive, and it is. But um, at the

939
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: same time, there are all sorts of merit aid opportunities

940
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: for you to go to that school at a greatly

941
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: reduced price, and not only merit aid, but the need

942
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 1: based aid as well. But like, I think it's important

943
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: just to just to be aware of the fact that

944
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: there's a game that you're playing. You know, it's it's

945
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: sort of like, I mean, we don't recommend for folks

946
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: like everyone to go out there and buy a new car.

947
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: Like for some folks that make sense, not for everybody,

948
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: But if you go to a dealership, you you have

949
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: to know that you're you're playing a game. You know,

950
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: like there's a there's a process, there's a dance, and

951
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: there's a way to win, and then there's like an

952
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 1: uninformed way to lose exactly. And we do not want

953
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: folks to be uninformed and losing when it comes to

954
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 1: you know, what they're spending on their kids college, or

955
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 1: what students are out there, what loans they're taking out

956
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: in order to to go to that school. It's so

957
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: important and I'm glad that we were able to talk

958
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: about that today with Ron. I'm also glad that you

959
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: and I we got to share a different type of beer.

960
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 1: This is This isn't a style that we normally have

961
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: on the show, but I'm glad we were able to

962
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 1: switch it up. Man. Yeah, So this one was called

963
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 1: Austar cop By Scepter Brewing Arts, and this is a

964
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: brewer that's like right around the corner from us. I

965
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 1: haven't actually been to this brewer yet, but I figured

966
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: i'd i'd pick up a can at our local bottle shop.

967
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 1: And and this is a Southern oyster rouch beer. I'm

968
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 1: pretty sure rouch beers are smoked beers, and this one

969
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 1: definitely has like a smoked flavor going on. Yeah, what

970
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: were your thoughts on this beer? Yeah? So immediately, like

971
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: you can't deny the fact that there's smoke going on

972
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:36,240
Speaker 1: in this beer. It's like it's almost like a combination

973
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: of Scotch, which certainly has smoky elements to it. Uh

974
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 1: in a in a beer. But these types of beers

975
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,720
Speaker 1: are made with malts that is like dried over smoke,

976
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 1: like over an open flame, so it imparts some of

977
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: that flavor in the malts. Uh, and you certainly taste

978
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: that in this beer. Uh. And I don't know if

979
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: all like oyster beers are also rosh beers. I don't

980
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: think so. But like an oyster stout before, Uh, it

981
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: loved that, Yeah, I think like so traditionally oysters like

982
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 1: they lend themselves I think to like the clarifying process

983
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 1: of the beers. But now I think like literally there

984
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: are like oyster flavors that get imparted into the beer,

985
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: but it tastes a touch briny. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah. Well,

986
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 1: so the fact that this combines a rosch beer, which

987
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: is a like a smoke beer with oyster flavors, it

988
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: totally makes me feel like I'm just like slurping down

989
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 1: some oysters that were like roasted over like an open

990
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: wood fire. Uh. It definitely makes me think of my

991
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 1: favorite Scotch, which is Talisker, which has a super briny

992
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 1: note to it along with a smoke. This is like

993
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: the beer equivalent to Talisker, if there's any Scotch fans

994
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: out there who like that type of beer. But I

995
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: really enjoyed it. Man, this is not a style we

996
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: normally drink, but I'm glad that you and I got

997
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: to to share this one today. Yeah, what were your

998
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:46,760
Speaker 1: thoughts on it? Though? Overall, it's definitely a funky style

999
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:48,919
Speaker 1: and it's definitely one I think I've literally had one

1000
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 1: other rotch beer before in my life, um, maybe two,

1001
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 1: and so yeah, the smoked element of a beer is

1002
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: is interesting because that's not what you're expecting going into it.

1003
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:00,359
Speaker 1: I think a lot of our listeners who are like

1004
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: craft beer novices, they might not be into the speer. Yeah,

1005
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: m it might be a little too out there for them,

1006
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: but unless you really like barbecue. But it's kind of

1007
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: that earthy, smokey, you brininess to it, and um, you know,

1008
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 1: I thought it was like fascinating. It was kind of

1009
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 1: funny to get to try something that was completely off

1010
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: the beaten path on the show today. Absolutely. All right,

1011
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 1: Well that's gonna do it for this episode. For folks

1012
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: that want show notes for this episode, there's a lot

1013
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 1: that we're gonna link to and that's up on our

1014
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:28,919
Speaker 1: website at how to money dot com. That's right, and Joel,

1015
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:30,919
Speaker 1: that's gonna be it for this episode until next time.

1016
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: Best Friends Out, best Friends Out,