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Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Michael Lewis, and this is against the rules.

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Speaker 1: If you've been listening to this season on Sports Gambling,

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Speaker 1: then you already know that at the heart of everything

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Speaker 1: is one thing human psychology. How to understand the passion

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Speaker 1: of fans, how to play mind games with them. It

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Speaker 1: just so happens that there's another show in my neighborhood

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Speaker 1: here at Pushkin. It's all about human psychology and what

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Speaker 1: research tells us about our own minds. That's the Happiness Lab,

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Speaker 1: hosted by doctor Laurie Santos. Laurie's a psychology professor at Yale.

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Speaker 1: In a while back, she did an episode that grabbed

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Speaker 1: my attention. It's called nerd Out, The Happiness of Being

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Speaker 1: a Fan. It starts with the story of a woman

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Speaker 1: who became obsessed with a British actor, Benedict Cumberbatch, and

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Speaker 1: it's delightful. Here's Laurie asking the big questions about fan psychology.

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Speaker 2: Could embracing a deep love of a seemingly trivial thing

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Speaker 2: and doing so openly and without guilt be the key

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Speaker 2: to feeling more connected and more present? Would each of

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Speaker 2: us become a lot happier if we two could at

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Speaker 2: least metaphorically get cumber batched.

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Speaker 1: Now, Laurie's episode is about cultural fandom, obviously, but I

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Speaker 1: suspected you'd have some interesting things to say about sports

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Speaker 1: fandom and gambling on sports. So I went to my

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Speaker 1: studio and she went to hers, and we had the

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Speaker 1: conversation you're about to hear there is Laurie.

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Speaker 2: Santos, Hey, folks has a gun.

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Speaker 1: I feel cumber batched, and I want to get to

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Speaker 1: sports gaming. But I do want to talk briefly about

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Speaker 1: fandom because you did that episode on Benedict Cumberbatch. Because

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Speaker 1: first start, when I was listening to you, we'll talk about,

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Speaker 1: you know, fangirling on shows and all that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: It felt kind of mild compared to sports fandom. That

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Speaker 1: it felt, you know, although consuming the behavior wasn't anything

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Speaker 1: like as insane as as you see with sports fans

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Speaker 1: getting close with Benadict Cumberbatch, but that was an extreme

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Speaker 1: and I'm warning you. Do you group sports fans in

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Speaker 1: this category? Is it a parasocial relationship being a sports fan?

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Speaker 2: I think sometimes. I mean, I think sports fandom has

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Speaker 2: a couple other different features. Right, So sports teams at

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Speaker 2: least a lot of the kind of canonical sports teams

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Speaker 2: you can think about the NBA or baseball teams or whatever.

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Speaker 2: They also have a feature that activates our sort of

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Speaker 2: group psychology. Right, So with Benedict Cumberbatch, you're a fan

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Speaker 2: of Benedict Cumberbatch, but you don't see yourself as like

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Speaker 2: a Red Sox fan or like a Patriots fan or something. Sorry,

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Speaker 2: I'm a Boston sports person, so those are going to

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Speaker 2: be all my examples, right. That kind of group psychology

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Speaker 2: is really different because it's not like the Benedict Cumberbatch

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Speaker 2: fans like hate some other actor and like really want

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Speaker 2: to take him down, right, But as a Red Sox fan,

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Speaker 2: like I grew up like hating the Yankees, right, if

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Speaker 2: somebody is a Yankees hat, I'm like, that person is

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Speaker 2: not my group. They are the enemy, right, And that's

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Speaker 2: a special part of our group psychology. It doesn't just

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Speaker 2: activate the kind of positive belonging part. It also activates

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Speaker 2: the kind of not so good, I don't like you,

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Speaker 2: you are not like me sort of part. And I

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Speaker 2: feel like that psychologically makes fandom a lot more powerful, right,

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Speaker 2: because it kind of gives us both the kind of

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Speaker 2: belonging side, like, oh, I'm like these people who like

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Speaker 2: the same things that I do. But it also comes

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Speaker 2: with the like I don't like those people, Like my

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Speaker 2: group doesn't like this other set of people. And I

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Speaker 2: think that this plays in sports betting a lot. My

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Speaker 2: guess is, sometimes, you know, if I'm a Red Sox

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Speaker 2: fan and I make a sports bed on Red Sox,

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Speaker 2: sometimes that's like I love the Red Sox and they're

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Speaker 2: going to do great. And sometimes it's like screw the

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Speaker 2: Yankees or f the Yankee, you know, like words we're

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Speaker 2: not gonna say on your podcast towards the Yankees. It's

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Speaker 2: about kind of who you don't like, who you're sort

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Speaker 2: of kind of fighting against.

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Speaker 1: That's second range of emotion. Yeah, we're not just for,

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Speaker 1: we're against.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes that against can be powerful.

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Speaker 1: But is it happiness inducing?

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Speaker 2: I think when the team beats the Yankees, maybe.

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Speaker 3: You know, like you knows, like I'm for whatever teams

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Speaker 3: playing the Yankees?

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Speaker 1: Is it going to make me happy to go looking

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Speaker 1: for for tribes to join to tack other tribes? If

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Speaker 1: my goal is happiness, is that behavior a tool to

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Speaker 1: achieve the goal?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well it might be how we're we're defining happiness right,

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Speaker 2: it definitely gives us a certain kind of positive emotion, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, schadenfreude. We can, you know, talk morally about

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Speaker 2: whether or not it's a good emotion to have. Definitely

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Speaker 2: feels pretty good when something bad is happening to some

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Speaker 2: group that you don't like.

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Speaker 1: You know, think about whether it feels really good when

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Speaker 1: something bad happens to someone. I'd yes, okay, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: thought of an example. Okay that works. Yes, it actually

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Speaker 1: made me a little I can remember feeling happy again.

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Speaker 2: Not all positive emotions, I think are ones that we

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Speaker 2: morally want to push for, right, And I think that's

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Speaker 2: why I said, we want to think about our definition

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Speaker 2: of happiness. I think of happiness really as being about

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Speaker 2: living a good, rich life that includes a moral life. Right.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to have, you know, seemingly short positive

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Speaker 2: emotions that feel good but are kind of yucky when

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Speaker 2: I think about how they play out in the world.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So we might want to reject schadenfreude as part of

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Speaker 2: a happy life, but kind of sometimes feels good, And

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Speaker 2: we'd be lying if we didn't admit that, at least

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Speaker 2: in some context.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So this fan identity, it plays a role in happiness.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk Let's talk about the positive side, because

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Speaker 2: we've been on the Schadenfreuda side for.

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Speaker 1: A while and I kind of it's the positive side.

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Speaker 2: Do you feel like you're experiencing a sense of belonging? Right,

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Speaker 2: we're Red Sox fans. We believe in the same things.

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Speaker 2: We cheer when the home team, you know, scores, like

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Speaker 2: all that stuff feels good in part because of the

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Speaker 2: sense of belonging, right, we kind of feel like we're

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Speaker 2: part of something bigger. But there's also just mechanisms that

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Speaker 2: good things are better when they're shared. Literally. There's some

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Speaker 2: studies where you bring people into the lab and have

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Speaker 2: them eat a chocolate bar, either at the same time

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Speaker 2: as some other people in the lab are eating the

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Speaker 2: chocolate bar who they can't talk to. It's just like

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Speaker 2: they know they're eating at the same time, or as

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Speaker 2: when that second person is doing something else. And what

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Speaker 2: you find is that the chocolate bar literally tastes better

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Speaker 2: when you're experiencing it at the same time as somebody else, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, And so think about a stadium full of

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Speaker 2: fans watching a goal scored at the same time as

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Speaker 2: everybody else, Right, If that psychological mechanism is in place.

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Speaker 2: Those kind of moments of triumph feel even better because

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Speaker 2: you're experiencing them with other folks.

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Speaker 1: But does it also amplify the feelings of loss when

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Speaker 1: things go wrong?

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Speaker 2: Oh for sure. Yeah. They also have they have experiments

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Speaker 2: having you eating a terrible chocolate bar, and yeah, terrible

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Speaker 2: things feel more terrible when you go through them with

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Speaker 2: other funds.

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Speaker 1: So you're getting just you're just getting a more extreme

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Speaker 1: experience of life.

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Speaker 2: The emotion shared emotions are amplified, whether that's the glory

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Speaker 2: of the win or the agony of defeat. You and

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Speaker 2: you didn't need a psychology study to tell you.

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Speaker 1: That, right, No you didn't. No you didn't, But it isn't.

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Speaker 1: It's an interesting question why people want the amplification and

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Speaker 1: are willing to take the risk of the amplification in

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Speaker 1: both directions.

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Speaker 2: I think there is like a little bit of misery

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Speaker 2: loves company, or we can kind of you know, covetch

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Speaker 2: together as a Red Sox fan. You know, before the

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Speaker 2: Red Sox were winning in the early two thousands, for

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Speaker 2: most of my teams, you know, being a Red Sox

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Speaker 2: fan was about covetching together with the other Bostonian friends

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Speaker 2: of mine, And there's a certain kind of camaraderie in

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Speaker 2: the like underdog identity too that I think folks get

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Speaker 2: something out of.

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Speaker 1: We imagine a stadium full of little happiness meters, these

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Speaker 1: people who are experienced seeing something, and happiness is going

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Speaker 1: up and happiness is going down when you introduce phones

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Speaker 1: and individual bets to every meter, so that and everybody

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Speaker 1: is making their own bet rather than actually just rooting

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Speaker 1: for the team. And the bet isn't as simple as

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Speaker 1: I'm betting on the team. You might be betting on

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Speaker 1: the team to win by eight points instead of four points,

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Speaker 1: so you might be betting on some player, so everybody,

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Speaker 1: actually the agenda is all of a sudden fragment, and

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Speaker 1: the whole place is a bunch of individuals on their

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Speaker 1: phones with their bets. What's going to happen to happiness there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think it becomes a little bit of

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Speaker 2: less of a shared experience, right. I've seen it more

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Speaker 2: in the context of say concerts and things like that,

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Speaker 2: where you go to a concert and you see everybody

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Speaker 2: pulling out their phone and sort of watching things. But

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Speaker 2: then they take their phone down, they like clip it

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Speaker 2: and they send it to their friend, and so no

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Speaker 2: one's actually watching or present or engaging with the event.

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Speaker 2: And I think there must be some of that going

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Speaker 2: on in the sports betting case, right where you're actually

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Speaker 2: not paying attention to the game because you are hopping

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Speaker 2: on these sites to kind of make these bets in

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Speaker 2: real time and sort of not paying attention to things.

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Speaker 2: So I think, like many aspects of our technology, the

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Speaker 2: ability to do these bets is sort of pulling us

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Speaker 2: out of the experience and taking us away from the

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Speaker 2: presence that would be kind of the most fun part

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Speaker 2: of the game in a lot of ways. So I

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Speaker 2: think it's making us less mindfully aware of what's going on.

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Speaker 2: And study after study shows that not being present is

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Speaker 2: kind of a hit on our enjoyment, our happiness. Right,

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Speaker 2: But it's happening at the same time as you're with

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Speaker 2: these kind of little tiny side bets, you know, kind

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Speaker 2: of upping the stakes a little bit for the win

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Speaker 2: of your team, Right, there's a sort of anticipatory benefit

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Speaker 2: of like, now I'm going to win some money if

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Speaker 2: my team wins by aid or within eight seconds or

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Speaker 2: whatever the bet is, Like, now there's something else at

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Speaker 2: stake kind of matters more to me, and that kind

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Speaker 2: of you know, risky decision making, as you know, can

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Speaker 2: have some benefits, especially in the anticipation phase when you're

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Speaker 2: sort of thinking, you know what, if I win, it

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Speaker 2: sort of makes it a little bit more exciting. And

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Speaker 2: I think these things are just bumping up the arousal

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Speaker 2: and the happiness meters of all the folks who are

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Speaker 2: watching these games. I think it obviously has some like

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Speaker 2: major drawbacks, but in the moment, you know, some of

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Speaker 2: these things might be amplifying other effects of the game too.

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Speaker 1: What do you think of as major drawbacks.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that these sites are kind of playing

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Speaker 2: on people's sense of belonging in ways that are causing

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Speaker 2: people who don't really understand this stuff to lose a

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Speaker 2: lot of money.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean by that they're playing on their

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Speaker 1: sense of belonging.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean my sense is that, like you know,

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Speaker 2: you see these commercials of your sports heroes or these

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Speaker 2: celebrities that you see online or influencers who are doing

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Speaker 2: this stuff. We're like, look at me, I'm on this

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Speaker 2: sports betting site and making all this money and making

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Speaker 2: these things, and you feel like, well, I want to

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Speaker 2: be like that person, Like I'm going to jump on

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Speaker 2: there too, right, you know, it feels like the kind

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Speaker 2: of cool thing to do. This is kind of playing

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Speaker 2: into our sense of status or sense of belonging and

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Speaker 2: being the kind of person who's smart enough to get

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Speaker 2: in on this fun thing where you can make some money.

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Speaker 2: And I think in the context of sports betting, you're

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Speaker 2: often betting on a team that you care about, right,

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Speaker 2: So it's kind of activating belonging from all these different

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Speaker 2: different pathways, right, But is often doing that in a

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Speaker 2: way that people are like literally losing their life savings

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Speaker 2: or especially for some of the young people that are

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Speaker 2: getting involved in this. And I think more and more

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Speaker 2: sports betting is about young people who maybe shouldn't be

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Speaker 2: on these sites in the first place, and maybe making

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Speaker 2: choices and decisions in the short term that they're going

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Speaker 2: to really regret in the long term. And that kind

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Speaker 2: of regret is not great for happiness.

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Speaker 1: I could not agree more. When we return, I asked

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Speaker 1: Lori Santos about the psychology of the teenage brain. I'm

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Speaker 1: back with doctor Lorie Santos, host of the Happiness Lab.

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Speaker 1: We started talking about my seventeen year old son Walker,

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Speaker 1: who was the subject of this show a few weeks back,

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Speaker 1: and that episode was still in the works when I

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Speaker 1: spoke to Laurie, so she hadn't heard it, but not surprisingly,

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Speaker 1: she had some incredible insights on teen psychology and sports gambling.

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Speaker 1: So I was asked to teach my high school senior

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Speaker 1: son's narrative nonfiction class. He it's an English elective. The

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Speaker 1: teachers say, you know, we read your stuff, Come on

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Speaker 1: over to my son's mortification. I went in and it

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Speaker 1: was an interactive thing, and my son, very interestingly, knowing

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Speaker 1: the subject of the podcast, said I got a question

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Speaker 1: for the class. Could anybody raise their hand? Who engages

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Speaker 1: in sports betting? And the boys were all on one

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Speaker 1: side of the room and the girls were on the other.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on there, but it was

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Speaker 1: like they just segregated by gender naturally. And they were like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, twenty girls and thirteen boys. All but

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Speaker 1: one of the boys raises their hands. None of the

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Speaker 1: girls zero. What's going on there? Like, why is this

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Speaker 1: so gendered? Why is it that boys brains are activated

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Speaker 1: in this way? Why aren't girls cumber batching over this

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Speaker 1: thing too?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think they're cumber batching about their own

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Speaker 2: kind of stuff, right. I mean, I think partly the

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Speaker 2: marketing of these sites is really aimed at boys more

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Speaker 2: than girls. I mean, like, I mean, I just watched

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Speaker 2: some of these commercials and it feels gendered to me.

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Speaker 2: Even the voices that are used like drug like.

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Speaker 3: It's not it's not aimed. It's not aimed at thirteen

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Speaker 3: year old Lorie. It's aimed at like somebody.

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Speaker 1: Thirteen year old Laurie. How would it sound?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean I think there'd be different influencers,

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Speaker 2: maybe be like, you know, I don't know, somebody putting

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Speaker 2: on makeup and talking about sports betting or something, right,

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Speaker 2: Like like there's a whole there's whole sets of marketing

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Speaker 2: that work incredibly well for young women, right, And that's

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Speaker 2: not what these sites are using. Right. I think historically

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Speaker 2: sports has been like male pursuit, particularly like watching sports

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Speaker 2: has been a male pursuit. I think that's changing with

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Speaker 2: people like Caitlin Clark and others. I think we're about

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Speaker 2: to see a real heyday of women in sports, but

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Speaker 2: we're not kind of there yet, And so it makes

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Speaker 2: sense that sort of sports betting is sort of playing

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Speaker 2: into male identity. And I think even if you look

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Speaker 2: at the history of gambling addictions in general, like, again,

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Speaker 2: all of these things are overlapping distributions, but you know,

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Speaker 2: they tend to a little bit skew mail, right, And

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Speaker 2: so I think the sites are kind of playing on that.

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Speaker 2: It's in a domain that's sort of exciting to boys generally.

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Speaker 2: It's using media that are really exciting to boys generally, right,

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Speaker 2: kind of like it's like more adjacent to sort of

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Speaker 2: video game use, is jumping into sports betting right on

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Speaker 2: your phones versus like, I don't know, watching Instagram reals

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Speaker 2: of makeup tutorials and so on. But I think adolescent

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Speaker 2: brains in general are like prone to risk taking and

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Speaker 2: prone to really seeking out belonging in whatever form it's

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Speaker 2: sort of presented, And so I feel like these cues

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Speaker 2: to belonging are especially salient to young boys too.

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Speaker 1: So that's what's going on the belonging side of things.

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Speaker 1: If other boys are doing it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't know about the

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Speaker 2: one kid of the thirteen who didn't raise his hand,

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Speaker 2: but I wouldn't be surprised if after that getting called

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Speaker 2: out in the classroom be like, you know, pulled out

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Speaker 2: his phone and looked into one of these things too.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's a sense there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of work in psychology showing the phenomena what it's called

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Speaker 2: social proof, right, like the fact that everybody's doing it

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Speaker 2: feels like I should be doing it, right, I'm kind

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Speaker 2: of missing out if I'm not doing it. And I

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Speaker 2: think this is one of the things that unfortunately podcasts

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Speaker 2: like this by contribute to. When we start talking about like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, all these teen boys are on sports

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Speaker 2: betting sites, that actually makes it more likely that all

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Speaker 2: the teen boys will jump on sports betting sites, right,

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Speaker 2: because there's a sense in which this is something that

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Speaker 2: you know, teens do. And I think this is a

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Speaker 2: problem for all these things that we don't want teens

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Speaker 2: to be doing, or that we want teens to be doing.

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Speaker 2: When we talk about how like, oh, so many teens

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Speaker 2: are evaping, or so many teens aren't voting, right, so

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Speaker 2: many young people aren't voting. When young people hear that,

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Speaker 2: an aspect of their psychology says, well, if everybody's not

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Speaker 2: doing it, then I shouldn't do it. That's a like

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Speaker 2: not for me to do right in the field of

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Speaker 2: social science. This has talked about as so called descriptive

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Speaker 2: norms becoming prescriptive norms. What does that mean. Well, when

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Speaker 2: you describe some statistic like many teen boys are sports betting,

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Speaker 2: that becomes in sunsets proscriptive. It's like, well, then many

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Speaker 2: teen boys should be sports betting, Like that's just kind

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Speaker 2: of what you do. That's the norm out there, So

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Speaker 2: I'm going to follow that norm too, And so I

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Speaker 2: think we have to be careful as we talk about

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Speaker 2: these statistics because as people hear more of these statistics,

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Speaker 2: it becomes the kind of thing that people tend to

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Speaker 2: do over time.

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Speaker 1: So what do we do to dissuade young men from

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Speaker 1: jumping into sports gambling? If we're doing a podcast on

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Speaker 1: sports gambling?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think the one way to figure out

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Speaker 2: how best to motivate teens is to really think carefully

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Speaker 2: about like what teen brains are built for. And I

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Speaker 2: think in some ways what they're really built for is

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Speaker 2: sort of seeking out status, becoming part of the group, right,

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Speaker 2: Like that's the young adult problem if you think evolutionarily,

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Speaker 2: like when you're a kid, you're just kind of figuring

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Speaker 2: out the world and so on. But as a teenager

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Speaker 2: kind of making the transition to adulthood, and one of

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Speaker 2: the things you have to pay attention to is kind

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Speaker 2: of where's my place right, where's my sense of agency?

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Speaker 2: How do I fit in? How do I gain respect

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Speaker 2: and status? How do I find my tribe?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: Like, these are the kind of the problems that the

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Speaker 2: teen brain is sort of trying to solve, and it's

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Speaker 2: doing that in a context where you know, your frontal

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Speaker 2: lobe is still developing. You're a little bit more risk

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Speaker 2: seeking when it comes to solving those problems. Right. So,

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Speaker 2: one way not to motivate a brain that's seeking out

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Speaker 2: agency and status and respect and belonging is to tell

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Speaker 2: that brain what to do. It's to be like sports

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Speaker 2: betting is really bad for you. You shouldn't do it.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to prevent you from doing it, right, It's

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Speaker 2: like the worst way to motivate teenagers, and it's kind

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Speaker 2: of a bad way to motivate just like humans in general,

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Speaker 2: just like telling them what to you know, I think,

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Speaker 2: what the last time you know, your spouse or a

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Speaker 2: good friend like told you what to do? I mean,

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Speaker 2: if you're like me, you might just have like a

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Speaker 2: moment of like, well, I don't want to, like just

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Speaker 2: almost like reactants against that, like I don't want to

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Speaker 2: do it, And that kind of reactance is way huger

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Speaker 2: in teenagers, right, So telling people, hey, don't do this,

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Speaker 2: it's you know, it just gets people to want to

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Speaker 2: do it even more sometimes, especially teenagers. Better way to

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Speaker 2: motivate teenagers is to appeal to that sense of respect

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Speaker 2: and agency. Be like, look, you're a sixteen right now.

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Speaker 2: You're smart, right, You're like really technologically savvy. What are

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Speaker 2: these companies trying to do?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: Do you think they, like are giving you the agency

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Speaker 2: that you deserve, or do you think they're trying to

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Speaker 2: hook you in? Look at what they're doing with these

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Speaker 2: celebrities who are advertising to you. Look at the way

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Speaker 2: they set up you know, the way these games work

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Speaker 2: to kind of hook you in. Like they're not giving

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Speaker 2: you agency, they're trying to sucker you, and you're not

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Speaker 2: a sucker, right. I think that kind of messaging would

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Speaker 2: work even better, And there's some hints that that is

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Speaker 2: the case, because if you look at the few kinds

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Speaker 2: of successful marketing campaigns to teens for other kind of

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Speaker 2: public health hazards, I'm thinking of things like cigarettes and

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Speaker 2: so on. The kinds of things that have worked well

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Speaker 2: have sort of used that move.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: Cigarette ads that worked terribly were like smoking kills, like

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Speaker 2: don't smoke like students are like kills like that's cool,

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Speaker 2: it's really you know, like that's like a way to

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Speaker 2: gain my own agency. That doesn't work. But the smoking

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Speaker 2: ads that have worked historically are the ones that have said, look,

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Speaker 2: these cigarette companies know that they're killing you, Like they

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Speaker 2: like know they're causing you harm, and they're trying to

401
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Speaker 2: hook you to this thing that's like really addictive. Like

402
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Speaker 2: you're smart. Do you want to like give in to

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Speaker 2: these folks that like, you know, think that they can

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Speaker 2: have control over you and hook you to this thing

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Speaker 2: and get you when you're young so that you stick

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Speaker 2: with them. You don't want to do that? What do

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Speaker 2: you want to do? Push back?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: Those kinds of ads of showing these kind of evil

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Speaker 2: you know, CEOs of the man, like hooking kids to cigarettes,

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Speaker 2: those ones actually had an impact and got kids to

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Speaker 2: quit or not start up more often. Right, I think

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Speaker 2: we could use the same kind of campaign against sports betting.

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Speaker 2: It's like these sites they know what they're doing, they're

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Speaker 2: not stupid. They're hooking you in. They're targeting you right

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Speaker 2: like you're an agent. You know you are the kind

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Speaker 2: of person that's afforded respect. You should You're too smart

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Speaker 2: to fall for that, right, That kind of marketing work

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Speaker 2: is way better.

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Speaker 1: They're trying and trying to make you look stupid by

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Speaker 1: losing exactly.

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Speaker 2: That's at the sort of societal level. But you could

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Speaker 2: ask a different question, which is, like, you know, if

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Speaker 2: you're a parent listening to this right now, and you

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Speaker 2: have a team who's kind of caught up in this, right,

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Speaker 2: you want to help, but you can't be like no,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to take your phone away or just don't

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Speaker 2: do that, Like that's not going to work. What's a

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Speaker 2: sort of strategy that you can do to sort of

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Speaker 2: mirror that respectful kind of get them to be agentive

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Speaker 2: about the situation? And researchers have come up with this

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Speaker 2: kind of path forward that they call collaborative troubleshooting right

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Speaker 2: where you can again kind of treat your kid or

434
00:20:37,836 --> 00:20:40,636
Speaker 2: whoever you're trying to negotiate with as an agent and

435
00:20:40,716 --> 00:20:43,476
Speaker 2: you start from this place of respect. You could even

436
00:20:43,516 --> 00:20:45,556
Speaker 2: start from like, look, you know, I know you're a

437
00:20:45,556 --> 00:20:48,436
Speaker 2: smart kid, right, and I just kind of want to understand, like,

438
00:20:48,476 --> 00:20:49,636
Speaker 2: what are you getting out of this?

439
00:20:49,796 --> 00:20:49,916
Speaker 3: Right?

440
00:20:49,916 --> 00:20:51,916
Speaker 2: Like, I know you're doing this for a good reason, right, Like,

441
00:20:51,956 --> 00:20:53,836
Speaker 2: I know, like there's probably a good reason. It's either

442
00:20:53,996 --> 00:20:56,156
Speaker 2: fun or what like, talk through me what you're getting

443
00:20:56,156 --> 00:20:56,516
Speaker 2: out of it?

444
00:20:56,596 --> 00:20:56,756
Speaker 3: Right?

445
00:20:57,036 --> 00:20:59,516
Speaker 2: Starting point number one, you're treating with respect. I know

446
00:20:59,556 --> 00:21:01,636
Speaker 2: you've thought about this. You know, you probably have come

447
00:21:01,716 --> 00:21:03,236
Speaker 2: up with your own good reasons why to do this,

448
00:21:03,276 --> 00:21:05,716
Speaker 2: because otherwise you wouldn't be doing it. What's going on?

449
00:21:05,836 --> 00:21:08,436
Speaker 2: Let's talk through it right Step number one. Your kid

450
00:21:08,476 --> 00:21:10,636
Speaker 2: when they back to you with what their reasons, they

451
00:21:10,716 --> 00:21:12,836
Speaker 2: might say some things, and then I think what you

452
00:21:12,876 --> 00:21:14,636
Speaker 2: first want to do is sort of validate some of them.

453
00:21:14,636 --> 00:21:17,036
Speaker 2: There might be good ones, like you know, you enjoy

454
00:21:17,036 --> 00:21:18,796
Speaker 2: the game, you think it's fun, right, your friends are

455
00:21:18,796 --> 00:21:20,196
Speaker 2: doing it. You want to see what it's like. There's

456
00:21:20,196 --> 00:21:22,036
Speaker 2: all this hype like those those are in some ways

457
00:21:22,236 --> 00:21:24,836
Speaker 2: reasonable reasons to go check something out and do it, right,

458
00:21:25,116 --> 00:21:27,316
Speaker 2: But you're also hearing some of the downsides, like maybe

459
00:21:27,316 --> 00:21:29,036
Speaker 2: they've lost some money, or maybe they don't like it,

460
00:21:29,076 --> 00:21:31,236
Speaker 2: or maybe they feel stuck. That's when the kind of

461
00:21:31,236 --> 00:21:34,236
Speaker 2: collaborative troubleshooting comes out as you said, Okay, well, you know,

462
00:21:34,276 --> 00:21:36,796
Speaker 2: given that part about you feeling stuck, like, how can

463
00:21:36,836 --> 00:21:39,076
Speaker 2: we do this a little bit better? Like I'm sure

464
00:21:39,116 --> 00:21:41,596
Speaker 2: you can come up with some strategies to like, you know,

465
00:21:41,716 --> 00:21:43,516
Speaker 2: fix this a little like like maybe like what would

466
00:21:43,556 --> 00:21:45,036
Speaker 2: you do with your phone different if you don't want

467
00:21:45,036 --> 00:21:46,836
Speaker 2: to be on these sites as much? You know, or

468
00:21:46,876 --> 00:21:49,196
Speaker 2: how can we You've probably thought about some boundaries that

469
00:21:49,236 --> 00:21:51,076
Speaker 2: you can come up with. What are some right, So

470
00:21:51,116 --> 00:21:53,356
Speaker 2: it's kind of like you're assuming they're AGENTA and they

471
00:21:53,356 --> 00:21:56,236
Speaker 2: have their own ideas, but you're kind of helping them

472
00:21:56,316 --> 00:21:58,796
Speaker 2: pull it out in a way that's really respectful and

473
00:21:58,796 --> 00:22:01,076
Speaker 2: so on. And so if you're a parent who's kind

474
00:22:01,076 --> 00:22:03,156
Speaker 2: of dealing with a team who's negotiating some of this stuff,

475
00:22:03,156 --> 00:22:05,876
Speaker 2: I think that's a really a much more effective strategy

476
00:22:05,876 --> 00:22:07,836
Speaker 2: than just telling them what to do, because you get

477
00:22:07,836 --> 00:22:10,156
Speaker 2: them to realize, like, oh, I have the solution myself

478
00:22:10,236 --> 00:22:12,756
Speaker 2: to figuring this out. I can identify the problem myself,

479
00:22:13,676 --> 00:22:15,356
Speaker 2: and then you kind of feel like it's your solution

480
00:22:15,476 --> 00:22:17,036
Speaker 2: rather than one that was forced upon you.

481
00:22:17,436 --> 00:22:19,716
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break when we return,

482
00:22:20,116 --> 00:22:23,636
Speaker 1: I asked Laurie Degrade, my sports gambling experiment with Walker.

483
00:22:30,596 --> 00:22:33,516
Speaker 1: I'm back with doctor Lori Santos. Can I tell you

484
00:22:33,596 --> 00:22:35,636
Speaker 1: my two solutions. You can tell me why they were stupid?

485
00:22:35,916 --> 00:22:37,916
Speaker 2: Please? Yeah, I'm sure they weren't that stupid.

486
00:22:37,996 --> 00:22:40,676
Speaker 1: The first was to give my son five thousand dollars

487
00:22:40,716 --> 00:22:43,076
Speaker 1: just and assume he was going to vaporize it, and

488
00:22:43,156 --> 00:22:46,836
Speaker 1: give him smart people, not me, to talk to, like

489
00:22:47,916 --> 00:22:50,596
Speaker 1: real pro sports gamblers who beat the house constantly, that

490
00:22:50,676 --> 00:22:54,716
Speaker 1: kind of thing, and have him talk to them about

491
00:22:54,756 --> 00:22:57,996
Speaker 1: the bets he was making and why he was making them,

492
00:22:58,316 --> 00:23:00,276
Speaker 1: and be able to ask him anything he wanted to

493
00:23:00,316 --> 00:23:03,116
Speaker 1: ask them. And I assume that he'd be sitting there

494
00:23:03,276 --> 00:23:06,316
Speaker 1: having heard from smart people, not me, why he shouldn't

495
00:23:06,316 --> 00:23:09,876
Speaker 1: make these bets, and he lost all the money, and

496
00:23:09,876 --> 00:23:12,956
Speaker 1: that was humiliating. And it's a bit like my father,

497
00:23:13,476 --> 00:23:16,636
Speaker 1: which happened when I was like fifteen, sticking a glass

498
00:23:16,636 --> 00:23:18,516
Speaker 1: of whiskey in my hands in New Orleans and saying,

499
00:23:18,596 --> 00:23:20,356
Speaker 1: drink this because it's going to people going to make

500
00:23:20,356 --> 00:23:23,196
Speaker 1: you drink this stuff. I want to be here while

501
00:23:23,196 --> 00:23:26,476
Speaker 1: you're going to supervise this. It's sort of this inoculation

502
00:23:26,636 --> 00:23:32,076
Speaker 1: approach to to the problem. I think this worked in

503
00:23:32,116 --> 00:23:35,956
Speaker 1: a roundabout way. But he made four thousand dollars. So

504
00:23:36,276 --> 00:23:39,116
Speaker 1: the problem was the signal that came back was not

505
00:23:39,236 --> 00:23:40,716
Speaker 1: the signal I was expecting.

506
00:23:41,476 --> 00:23:43,916
Speaker 2: Well, a couple of things there, right One is first,

507
00:23:44,196 --> 00:23:46,076
Speaker 2: I think you're embodying a lot of this or of

508
00:23:46,076 --> 00:23:50,876
Speaker 2: collaborative troubleshooting approach. Right one, you gave him some money.

509
00:23:51,116 --> 00:23:54,116
Speaker 2: Right you were like, I see you as agentive, I

510
00:23:54,156 --> 00:23:55,796
Speaker 2: respect you. I'm going to give you this money to

511
00:23:55,836 --> 00:23:58,156
Speaker 2: do it right. Like, that's maybe the most kind of

512
00:23:58,156 --> 00:24:00,236
Speaker 2: agentive thing you could do, is like give him money

513
00:24:00,276 --> 00:24:01,636
Speaker 2: to kind of do this right. So I think that

514
00:24:01,636 --> 00:24:04,036
Speaker 2: that's already in the motive. You're not telling him what

515
00:24:04,076 --> 00:24:06,916
Speaker 2: to do, You're kind of letting him try it himself. Second,

516
00:24:07,116 --> 00:24:09,636
Speaker 2: you hook him up with these other sports betting folks. Like,

517
00:24:09,716 --> 00:24:11,396
Speaker 2: not only were you not like I'm going to tell

518
00:24:11,396 --> 00:24:13,236
Speaker 2: you how to do this, You're like, hey, you are

519
00:24:13,276 --> 00:24:16,396
Speaker 2: a collaborator who is as respected and kind of as

520
00:24:16,516 --> 00:24:19,956
Speaker 2: high status as these other interesting sports bet guys. Go

521
00:24:20,036 --> 00:24:22,476
Speaker 2: have a conversation and talk to them. And I bet

522
00:24:22,476 --> 00:24:26,036
Speaker 2: in the context of that conversation he probably learned some stuff.

523
00:24:26,156 --> 00:24:27,836
Speaker 2: You know, at the very least, he probably learned that

524
00:24:27,876 --> 00:24:31,036
Speaker 2: the bets he was making before weren't the greatest bets, right,

525
00:24:31,076 --> 00:24:33,476
Speaker 2: I mean, if only because he started, either he had

526
00:24:33,516 --> 00:24:35,996
Speaker 2: like a three sigma like kind of you know, lucky

527
00:24:36,116 --> 00:24:38,516
Speaker 2: streak that like got in this four thousand bucks, or

528
00:24:38,556 --> 00:24:41,756
Speaker 2: he learned something about you know, appropriate kinds of sports betting,

529
00:24:41,916 --> 00:24:44,836
Speaker 2: or ways to kind of hedge things or think differently, right,

530
00:24:45,436 --> 00:24:47,236
Speaker 2: or some combination of both. But the point is that

531
00:24:47,516 --> 00:24:51,916
Speaker 2: my guess is that you agentively allowing him with respect

532
00:24:51,956 --> 00:24:54,956
Speaker 2: to talk to these high status people made him listen

533
00:24:54,996 --> 00:24:56,956
Speaker 2: to those high status people's advice, right. He kind of

534
00:24:56,956 --> 00:24:58,596
Speaker 2: had a choice of who to talk to. It wasn't

535
00:24:58,636 --> 00:25:01,556
Speaker 2: like forced upon him. He probably got some reasonable advice.

536
00:25:01,836 --> 00:25:04,476
Speaker 2: And my guess is that those folks, even though they're

537
00:25:04,676 --> 00:25:07,116
Speaker 2: kind of good at it, probably shared with him some

538
00:25:07,156 --> 00:25:09,076
Speaker 2: of the downsides, you know, some of their own downsides

539
00:25:09,156 --> 00:25:11,436
Speaker 2: from dealing with this stuff, and I think that can

540
00:25:11,476 --> 00:25:14,116
Speaker 2: be kind of powerful. So I think, you know, maybe

541
00:25:14,156 --> 00:25:17,596
Speaker 2: like to some sigma lucky breaks now was standing across

542
00:25:17,636 --> 00:25:20,756
Speaker 2: you know, his money. My guess is he learned something.

543
00:25:20,956 --> 00:25:23,996
Speaker 2: And I bet if you surveyed him, he'd be more

544
00:25:24,036 --> 00:25:27,796
Speaker 2: skeptical about the whole practice of sports betting, and at

545
00:25:27,876 --> 00:25:31,076
Speaker 2: least a little bit more mature about going into it.

546
00:25:31,156 --> 00:25:34,996
Speaker 1: The initial survey was interesting that I asked him, after

547
00:25:35,236 --> 00:25:37,716
Speaker 1: whatever six weeks, what's the next bet, because he'd been

548
00:25:37,716 --> 00:25:41,836
Speaker 1: betting frantically and he said, I'm done. And I he said,

549
00:25:41,876 --> 00:25:44,636
Speaker 1: I'm up four thousand dollars and this is stupid. They're

550
00:25:44,636 --> 00:25:46,196
Speaker 1: going to take my money if I keep doing it.

551
00:25:46,396 --> 00:25:48,476
Speaker 1: That my bets I just got. He basically said, we

552
00:25:48,556 --> 00:25:51,796
Speaker 1: just got lucky, got really lucky. And they've made me

553
00:25:51,836 --> 00:25:53,516
Speaker 1: aware of just how dumb these bets are.

554
00:25:55,076 --> 00:25:57,036
Speaker 2: That's so huge, right because if you had told him,

555
00:25:57,276 --> 00:25:59,756
Speaker 2: if you had told him, like, these bets are dumb, like,

556
00:25:59,876 --> 00:26:02,116
Speaker 2: don't do it, he would have just ignored you right

557
00:26:02,196 --> 00:26:04,916
Speaker 2: or thought you were. But like that experience kind of

558
00:26:04,956 --> 00:26:06,436
Speaker 2: got him to do it. I mean, I think this is,

559
00:26:06,676 --> 00:26:09,516
Speaker 2: you know, not just for a conversation about sports betting,

560
00:26:09,556 --> 00:26:13,996
Speaker 2: for a broader conversation about parenting. Is that why parenting

561
00:26:14,116 --> 00:26:16,116
Speaker 2: is hard is that we want our kids to learn,

562
00:26:16,476 --> 00:26:19,076
Speaker 2: but the way we learn as humans is through our

563
00:26:19,116 --> 00:26:22,916
Speaker 2: own mistakes and reaping the consequences of those mistakes. And

564
00:26:22,956 --> 00:26:24,836
Speaker 2: that sucks as a parent because you don't want your

565
00:26:24,876 --> 00:26:27,156
Speaker 2: kid to reap negative consequences. You don't want them to

566
00:26:27,156 --> 00:26:31,916
Speaker 2: get physically, her, financially, her, emotionally, her experience just like

567
00:26:31,996 --> 00:26:34,436
Speaker 2: the sting of failure that sucks for us as parents,

568
00:26:34,476 --> 00:26:37,596
Speaker 2: and we don't like letting our kids experience that. But ultimately,

569
00:26:37,676 --> 00:26:39,956
Speaker 2: like that is the way that they're going to learn.

570
00:26:39,996 --> 00:26:42,436
Speaker 2: They don't learn we just as humans, don't learn as

571
00:26:42,476 --> 00:26:45,436
Speaker 2: well by being told stuff or forced to do stuff

572
00:26:45,716 --> 00:26:48,676
Speaker 2: or strong armed into stuff. We learn by experiencing our

573
00:26:48,716 --> 00:26:52,836
Speaker 2: own consequences, kind of troubleshooting things for ourselves, sometimes messing

574
00:26:52,876 --> 00:26:55,396
Speaker 2: up and then learning better strategies. And what you did

575
00:26:55,436 --> 00:26:57,196
Speaker 2: in the situation with your son is you like let

576
00:26:57,316 --> 00:26:59,796
Speaker 2: him do that, you know, and you know to the

577
00:26:59,796 --> 00:27:01,996
Speaker 2: two to five thousand bucks and maybe like some.

578
00:27:02,716 --> 00:27:04,836
Speaker 1: But he didn't. But he didn't, he didn't make the

579
00:27:04,916 --> 00:27:06,756
Speaker 1: naked eye, he didn't make mistakes.

580
00:27:06,916 --> 00:27:09,876
Speaker 2: But if he's walking away saying I'm done, he's learned

581
00:27:09,916 --> 00:27:12,276
Speaker 2: something that he had not learned when he was making

582
00:27:12,316 --> 00:27:14,756
Speaker 2: these bets all over them. Yes, right, And that might

583
00:27:14,796 --> 00:27:16,996
Speaker 2: be a thing a conversation to have, Like you know

584
00:27:17,316 --> 00:27:19,516
Speaker 2: you're saying you're done, I'm just curious, like you know,

585
00:27:19,596 --> 00:27:21,396
Speaker 2: what was the biggest thing you learned? Like I'm sure

586
00:27:21,436 --> 00:27:23,716
Speaker 2: you you did this so successfully, right, Like I thought

587
00:27:23,756 --> 00:27:25,356
Speaker 2: you were going to crash in burbas. Somehow you get

588
00:27:25,356 --> 00:27:27,396
Speaker 2: this money, whether you're lucky or not. You know what

589
00:27:27,436 --> 00:27:28,356
Speaker 2: did you learn? Tell me?

590
00:27:28,476 --> 00:27:28,636
Speaker 1: Right?

591
00:27:28,716 --> 00:27:30,636
Speaker 2: Like give him this sort of idea of like agent

592
00:27:30,676 --> 00:27:33,236
Speaker 2: of respect when you have that conversation, right to assume

593
00:27:33,236 --> 00:27:35,156
Speaker 2: that you're going to learn something from him. And that

594
00:27:35,316 --> 00:27:38,596
Speaker 2: is when we allow our teens to have the most insight.

595
00:27:39,276 --> 00:27:41,236
Speaker 1: My second strategy, so I was going to resort to

596
00:27:41,276 --> 00:27:43,756
Speaker 1: if he didn't learn from the first strategy, was to

597
00:27:43,796 --> 00:27:46,636
Speaker 1: offer to be the bookie and say, all right, you

598
00:27:46,636 --> 00:27:49,756
Speaker 1: see this this bet on fandula draftings you and all

599
00:27:49,796 --> 00:27:52,756
Speaker 1: your friends. I'll take every side of every bet you

600
00:27:52,796 --> 00:27:55,996
Speaker 1: want to make. Just how And I think that that

601
00:27:56,116 --> 00:27:57,956
Speaker 1: is such a good bet to have that I will

602
00:27:57,956 --> 00:28:00,516
Speaker 1: be on the other side of all your bets going forward.

603
00:28:00,996 --> 00:28:03,716
Speaker 1: And I don't know how it was a form of ridicule,

604
00:28:04,756 --> 00:28:08,676
Speaker 1: not directly to my son, but to the audience. This

605
00:28:08,796 --> 00:28:11,356
Speaker 1: kind of mocking, a little bit of mocking tone may

606
00:28:11,396 --> 00:28:13,916
Speaker 1: not be the worst way to go about it. Uh

607
00:28:14,556 --> 00:28:17,116
Speaker 1: create an environment in which people feel a little foolish

608
00:28:17,156 --> 00:28:17,516
Speaker 1: doing this.

609
00:28:19,196 --> 00:28:22,636
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think making people aware of the consequences of

610
00:28:22,676 --> 00:28:27,556
Speaker 2: it right, you know, getting in on there like but

611
00:28:27,556 --> 00:28:30,036
Speaker 2: but again, you know, how much do you learn when

612
00:28:30,596 --> 00:28:35,036
Speaker 2: other people experience shodden flord on your behalf right or

613
00:28:35,236 --> 00:28:35,916
Speaker 2: at your expense?

614
00:28:36,316 --> 00:28:39,196
Speaker 1: I learned a lot. I learned who I want to

615
00:28:39,236 --> 00:28:42,116
Speaker 1: hang with and who I don't. But it's funny. Yeah, no,

616
00:28:42,196 --> 00:28:44,556
Speaker 1: it's that this is this is an interesting question.

617
00:28:45,436 --> 00:28:49,836
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think strategy number one probably worked better than

618
00:28:49,836 --> 00:28:51,876
Speaker 2: you thought, and it was much more consistent with the

619
00:28:51,916 --> 00:28:55,356
Speaker 2: social science research on teenage motivation than you might have expected.

620
00:28:55,476 --> 00:28:57,276
Speaker 1: Strategy number two is going to be a hail Mary,

621
00:28:57,396 --> 00:28:58,636
Speaker 1: all right, this was this was.

622
00:28:58,596 --> 00:29:00,836
Speaker 2: This was great, awesome, Thanks so much.

623
00:29:03,596 --> 00:29:06,436
Speaker 1: Lori Santos is a professor of psychology at Yale and

624
00:29:06,596 --> 00:29:09,756
Speaker 1: host of the Happiness Lab here at Pushkin. Check it out.

625
00:29:09,756 --> 00:29:12,356
Speaker 1: It's a really great listen and full of useful science

626
00:29:12,436 --> 00:29:14,716
Speaker 1: that you can use to make your life actually better.

627
00:29:16,596 --> 00:29:19,036
Speaker 1: Against the Rules is written and hosted by me Michael

628
00:29:19,076 --> 00:29:23,316
Speaker 1: Lewis and produced by Lydia gene Kott, Catherine Gerardeau, and

629
00:29:23,396 --> 00:29:28,636
Speaker 1: Ariella Markowitz. Our editor is Julia Barton. Our engineer is

630
00:29:28,676 --> 00:29:33,156
Speaker 1: Sarah Bruguer. Against the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries.

631
00:29:33,596 --> 00:29:37,356
Speaker 1: To find more Pushkin Podcasts listen on the iHeartRadio app,

632
00:29:37,716 --> 00:29:41,996
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and if

633
00:29:41,996 --> 00:29:44,436
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634
00:29:44,476 --> 00:29:47,676
Speaker 1: other exclusive offerings, don't forget to sign up for a

635
00:29:47,716 --> 00:29:52,756
Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin dot fm, slash Plus, or

636
00:29:52,756 --> 00:29:57,636
Speaker 1: on our Apple show page