1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to 2 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, 3 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: which you can find a link to in the show 4 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right. 6 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: Enjoy the episode. Mary Goche believes that good songs can 7 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: save lives. She turned to music in her thirties and 8 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: became a songwriter of incredible depth and honesty with songs 9 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: like Mercy Now, A Long Way to Fall, and I Drink, 10 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: songs that she says helped save her life. A few 11 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: years ago, Mary started collaborating with US military veterans and 12 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: their spouses, helping them write songs about their own experiences. 13 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: Those songs are featured on her latest album, Rifles and 14 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: Rosary Beads. Recently, we sat down with Mary in Nashville 15 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: asked her to play a few songs from the album 16 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: and talk about this unique collaboration. I'm Bruce Headlam and 17 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: this is broken record, So tell me a bit about 18 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: this song. Yes, thank you. This was written with a 19 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: group of military spouses from a bunch of different branches 20 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: of the military, five different spouses and my fellow songwriter 21 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 1: Beth Nilson Chapman, and we wrote this at a Songwriting 22 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: with Soldiers retreat. Songwriting with Soldiers is a nonprofit that 23 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: pairs civilian songwriters with veterans and military spouses so that 24 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: we can make songs out of their experiences. Now you 25 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: came to this, you've done this for several years, but 26 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: you don't come from a military background. Your family wasn't 27 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: in the military, Is that right? Well, my dad served 28 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: in Korea, but we never ever heard a word about 29 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: his service. There's one picture of him in uniform, and 30 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: he never ever talked about his service, but he he 31 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: did serve. I have zero experience with the military, and 32 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: until I started working with Songwriting with Soldiers, I didn't 33 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: know anyone who'd served in Afghanistan or Iraq. So take 34 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: me inside the room. When you first started working with 35 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: veterans and spouses. I was asked to do it by 36 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 1: the founder of Songwriting with Soldiers, Darden Smith, because of 37 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: a referral through Darryl Scott, fellow songwriter here in Nashville, 38 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: who had done a program with them, and thought I 39 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: would be I would be up for the task of 40 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: doing one of these retreats. So Darden invited me, and 41 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,959 Speaker 1: the first retreat I did was all women, all female soldiers. 42 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: I got paired with two women and we sat down, 43 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: and I was a nervous wreck because of my limited 44 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 1: knowledge of what they'd been through, and so I wanted 45 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: to get it right and I wanted to capture what 46 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: they had to say, but I didn't know what I 47 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: was doing yet, and so I just kind of interviewed 48 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: them and they had a lot to say, and as 49 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: they spoke, I just typed it into my laptop. And 50 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: I learned right away that at some point the title 51 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: a song title is going to pop out of their mouth. 52 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: And just put that on top of the page and 53 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: start working on it. Now, you know military people, and 54 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: I've done a project with veterans as well and their spouses, 55 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: and they're the first to tell you that they don't 56 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: always have access to those emotions and to those feelings. 57 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: Was there something you had to break through? Were they guarded? 58 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: What I remember is that when the music starts to 59 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: come and it reflects what they're saying, it is kind 60 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: of a can opener. It just opens the walls of 61 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: protection that they've built around their heart. Melody is very powerful, 62 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: and when it reflects you, you feel seen and heard, 63 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: and that empathy bond breaks down. I think the natural 64 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: self protection that someone has when they've been traumatized, and 65 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: so many of our veterans do carry war trauma. So 66 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: I think the answer is yes, a lot of the 67 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 1: vets are protected, especially with civilians, because we don't know 68 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: what they've been through. But also I think there's a 69 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 1: sense that they're being heard when the music starts to come. 70 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: So you were first working on the words, you said, 71 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: you were at your laptop, you didn't have your guitar, 72 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: that's right. When could you bring the guitar in pretty quickly? 73 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: I think once I have a couple of lines and 74 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: I want to see how they're going to sing, So 75 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: I'll just start messing around with very simple core progressions 76 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: and it starts to sing pretty quickly. And I've been 77 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: doing this for six years now, so I have quite 78 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: a bit of experience. But I like to look up 79 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 1: when the music starts to come because almost always their 80 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: eyes get big. Is it's music sees us in ways 81 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: that there's not really an explanation for. Music goes to 82 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: the deepest part of who we are, and when the 83 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: music sees them, they they kind of are blown away 84 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: in a way like it's like, what, like this is 85 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: going to really truly reflect me? You know? That's what 86 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: we as songwriters just sort of take for granted, and 87 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: because this is our job, we know it as part 88 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: of our everyday life. But for someone who's never experienced 89 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: an original song of their story, is it is? It 90 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 1: is quite astonishing process. And how do they react after that? 91 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: Do they feel a little self conscious again or do 92 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: you feel it opens up something that stays open. I 93 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: think there's a real sense of intimacy that's formed and 94 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: empathy in the co write in the writing room. But 95 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,679 Speaker 1: when we take the song back into the large group 96 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: and they realize, oh my god, what I just revealed 97 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: is going to be played in front of all these people, 98 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: I think a lot of fear is experienced. And when 99 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: we talk about it in the retreats, the founder Darden 100 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: Smith always says there's two kinds of courage. At least, 101 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: there's the kind of courage it takes to put the 102 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: uniform on and go serve the country, and the kind 103 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: of courage it takes to take the uniform off and 104 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: be honest about what happened over there and what remains 105 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: inside of you that's unresolved. And so this is courage time. 106 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: When their song is about to be played in front 107 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: of their group, I think there's a lot of fear. 108 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen guys from Special Forces break into 109 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: a cold sweat that's running down both sides of their face. 110 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: Do you remember playing this song in front of the 111 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: wares after the war? Do you remember taking this song 112 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: into a bigger room? Yes? Do you remember what the 113 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: reaction was? Yes? All of the women who co wrote 114 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: it were huddled into a group and they were holding 115 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: each other's hands, and there were tears, and there was 116 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: a sense of sisterhood and understanding and instant bond that 117 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: a song is. It's empathy. They they know each other's experience, 118 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: they've lived each other's lives. And what was the reaction 119 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: in the audience was the audience was their husbands, and 120 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: their husbands, if I remember right, so many of their 121 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: husbands say, the true hero is my wife. Nobody knows 122 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: what she's gone through. You know, people thank me for 123 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: my service, but she's going through the aftermath and deserves that. 124 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: I think the husbands were grateful that that this song 125 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: gave voice to their hero. In many instances, it's their wife. 126 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: Did did that surprise any of the men? I think 127 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: it was a relief because this was a co write 128 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: with a group of women, so it wasn't any couple 129 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: singled out. It was five women and five men, and 130 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: that the group proved. I tod cover and relief, like, Oh, 131 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: we're all going through it. It's not just it's not 132 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: just us, which is that's the great power of song 133 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: in a nutshell songs let us know we're not alone, right, 134 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: That's that's what I was drawn to all along, from 135 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: the very beginning. Listening to the radio as a kid, 136 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: It's like, oh my god, that's me coming out of 137 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: that little box on the wall the intercolm. You know, 138 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: do you remember the first song that did that for you, 139 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: that made you feel that you shared an experience with 140 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: someone else, someone you didn't know. Oh God, the radio 141 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: when Casey Casem was American Top forty. I listened to 142 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: it in my room, laying in my little twin bed 143 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,239 Speaker 1: under the intercom and Baton Rouge Louisiana in the seventies, 144 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: and song after song after I tried so hard to 145 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: Stay Awake for the top ten. Song after song after 146 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: song it was. Bruce said it the best Springsteen. I 147 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: learned more from a four minute record than I ever 148 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,719 Speaker 1: did in school music and songs. I've always been where 149 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,119 Speaker 1: I've tried to where I have I've found my story myself, 150 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: my emotional reality is in songs. What surprised you the 151 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: most when you started working with the veterans and with 152 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 1: their families. I think what's been most surprising to me 153 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: is the heaviness of the weight that they carry, Just 154 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: how hard it is to deal with war trauma inside 155 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: a family system in a war that goes on and 156 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: on and on. A lot of these troops are active duty, 157 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: so they're going to be called back. A lot of 158 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: the vets we've worked with have multiple, multiple deployments, if 159 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, winner eighteenth year of the conflict in 160 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: Afghanistan and Iraq, and it's falling on a very proportionally 161 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: to the population, small number of people. They carry so much, 162 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: and one of the shocking things for me is this 163 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: could be my kids. I'm fifty, I'll be fifty seven 164 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: in the next little while, and these could be my babies. 165 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: It really activated a maternal impulse in me I didn't 166 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: even know I had. I just want to wrap my 167 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: arms around them and keep them safe. I found myself 168 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:27,319 Speaker 1: in many ways drawn to them, and in a way 169 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: that is new for me, very quickly, deep deep love. 170 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: I love these people. Now we should say this song, 171 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: and many of the songs you're going to play today, 172 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: were from your most recent album, which is Rifles and 173 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: Rosary Beads, which was all the songs are co written 174 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: with veterans YEP and their spouses and their spouses. Now, 175 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: not to scare people away, but I think a lot 176 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: of these songs, they are incredibly powerful. But you know, 177 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: there's some songs that explicitly address the war experience. But 178 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: there's songs like this one. It's got that great line, 179 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: and I'm not going to ask you to say which 180 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: one of the people wrote it, because I'm going to 181 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: just assume they all did. Caught between my pain and 182 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: the pain of someone else. I think that's something that 183 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: even people who aren't veterans or in their families people 184 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: understand that kind of experience. Were you trying to write 185 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 1: songs that could be lifted out of its immediate circumstances 186 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: like this is a song for everybody, definitely, not No. 187 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 1: What I was trying to do is get to their 188 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: deepest experience. Because of the years I've been doing this, 189 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: I know for a fact that if I can get 190 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: to their deepest experience, it will just be a song 191 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: for everybody, because if you go past the personal to 192 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: the deeply deeply personally, you hit the universal, and the 193 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: universal is what makes the song great. And what we 194 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: try to do is write great songs with members of 195 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: the military and their spouses. The goal is to find 196 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: what the song wants to say and what their souls 197 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: need to say. Well, let's hear a very different song, 198 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: a great song which is called Iraq, and it's about 199 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: a very different experience. Thank you. We'll be back with 200 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: Mary Gache's song Iraq after this break. We're back with 201 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: Mary Gasche performing her song Iraq from the album Rifles 202 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,599 Speaker 1: and Rosary Beads. Can you tell me the story of 203 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: writing this song? Yeah. I wrote this with the female 204 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: large engine mechanic who served in the Army. Her name 205 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: is Brandy Davidson, and she was a vibrant, incredibly charismatic, 206 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:57,559 Speaker 1: beautiful woman with a million dollar smile and beautiful clothes, 207 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: and she was a class president of her high class, 208 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: and she just had personality. And she feels or felt 209 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: at the time that the sexual harassment she experienced in 210 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: Iraq broke her down and she had to rebuild herself 211 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: after she came home. And it was stunning for me 212 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: to hear her say that her enemy really was in Iraq, 213 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: that the battle she was fighting and the war that 214 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: she was engaged in was sexual harassment. Was that the 215 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: phrase she used, her enemy wasn't Iraq. That's correct. When 216 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: you heard that, did you? I said, sweetie, let's call 217 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: this thing Iraq. What do you think? And you know, 218 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: I tried to imagine what it was like for her, 219 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: and so I just asked her, you know, were you 220 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: covered in Greece. Give me the names of some of 221 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: the tools. I don't know what the torque wrenches or 222 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: any of those things she listed, but she does. And 223 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: she was one of only two large engine mechanics in 224 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: the area where she served that were female, and so 225 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: she was up against it and it was really hard 226 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: for her. There's such beautiful lines in that song, the 227 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: double meaning of I worked on my back, the image 228 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: of her drawing a line, of course, your mind fills 229 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: in the rest of it in the sand, in a 230 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: place where the wind blows the dust. That's quite incredible. 231 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: Thank you. You've written a lot about trauma in your 232 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: own life and for people who don't know your story. 233 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: You were adopted, You were in a foundling hospital for 234 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: a year back when they called them foundling hospital. You 235 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: struggled with your adopted family, ran away from home. You 236 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: did open a restaurant in Boston and stopped drinking alcohol 237 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: at some point. Does your trauma make it easier to 238 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: relate to the trauma of someone like this who had 239 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: a very different experience. No, I think so. I think 240 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: it does. Although all of the songwriters that work with 241 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: the Songwriting with Soldiers program are really good at what 242 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: they do. I feel drawn to it in a way 243 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: that feels natural to me. Once I got over my 244 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: original fear around doing a good job and realized I 245 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: could do this job, I have a real strong belief 246 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: that it's the songs and songwriting that were my life jackets. 247 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: After I got clean and sober, I needed something to 248 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: hold on to. It couldn't be accumulating capital in a 249 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: restaurant making Jamalaya. I needed something more, and so I 250 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: walked away from the restaurant and became a full on, 251 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: full time songwriter and literally worked my way through my 252 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: own story in my writing, using the songs to in 253 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: many ways, release the poison. What happens is empathy. You know, 254 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: people say, oh my god, that's my song. You know me, 255 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: you see me. I'm like, well, you know, we're made 256 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: of the same stuff, and that is very powerful for 257 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: both the songwriter and the person who resonates with the song. 258 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: And you know, you did not take up songwriting because 259 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: you wanted to be Britney Spears. You did this at 260 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: age thirty five, Is that right? Yeah? I started writing 261 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: songs in my mid thirties and came to Nashville at 262 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: age forty. Do you remember the first song you wrote? 263 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: Not really, I think it was probably pretty bad. Had 264 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: you been did you play the guitar by then or 265 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: was it did you just start from kind of well scratch? 266 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: I kind of always had a guitar. My aunt Jenny, 267 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: gave me her guitar. She was a bit of a 268 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: folks singer, and she gave me one of her old 269 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: guitars when I was thirteen, and then I got my 270 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: own guitar a few years later from the music store 271 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: round back ovation very first guitar that ever plugged in 272 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: and made an acoustic electric guitar. But I didn't write 273 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: songs until I got clean. So play some of my 274 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 1: hero songs, you know, the simpler songs. But after I 275 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,479 Speaker 1: got clean sober, I was very much called to write, 276 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: and I couldn't really explain it. I didn't know why, 277 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: but it became very clear that this is what I 278 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: had to do. I never expected to make a career 279 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: out of it, but that just came on. It was 280 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: a process, and they came on, and then I just 281 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 1: surrendered to it and came to Nashville when I was forty. 282 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: When did you first step on a stage and sing 283 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: your own songs? Probably when I was thirty two thirty one. 284 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: What was that like? It's probably the most frightening thing 285 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: I've ever done. I was terrified. I was absolutely terrified. 286 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: I remember all the spit drained out of my mouth. 287 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: It was like I could have spit dust. I had nothing. 288 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: I had my heart exploding in my ears, no spit. 289 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: My hands were shaken, and I forgot the words, I 290 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: forgot the chords. I lost it on stage. It was terrible, 291 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: but something in me said, well, you're gonna have to 292 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: do that again, you know, I just told myself, yeah, 293 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: that was horrible, but the good news is it can't 294 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: be worse than that. Do it again? Had that been 295 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: I mean, you know you were a cook before then. 296 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: Did you always throw yourself at things you found really hard? Apparently? Yeah? 297 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: Is it getting easier? It's gotten incredibly for me to 298 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,360 Speaker 1: be on stage. Yeah, It's where I belong there and 299 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: I can take over a stage without terror. Do you 300 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: want to play another song? Happy to do it? So 301 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: tell me about your co writer. Sailor in the Navy. 302 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: His name is Jamie Trent. He served in Desert Storm. 303 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: He wanted to write a song about how complex Veterans 304 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: Day is for him, how the feeling things that he 305 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: has on November the eleventh or not at all simple. 306 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: In fact, he feels opposite and conflicting emotions on that 307 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: day and I wanted to help him try to get 308 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: to that. And as we talked, he told me that 309 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: in his town on Veterans Day, if you have an 310 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: active duty military ID, waffle House will give you a 311 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: free breakfast. And for me, as a songwriter, that just 312 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: the whole movies right there. So let's send you to 313 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: waffle house on November eleventh, and you tell me what happens. 314 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: And we wrote the story basically using our imagination and 315 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 1: his experience to move the parade past the waffle house 316 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: while he's sitting there with conflicted emotions. How did you 317 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: get that out of him? Well, songwriting is a skill, 318 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: and I've been at it quite a while, and I 319 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: know that it needs to be a little a movie, 320 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: and the listener needs to be able to see the 321 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: scenery and put themselves into the protagonist's body and look 322 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: out from their eyes. So when I ask them questions 323 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,479 Speaker 1: about what's going on in the little movie and they 324 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: give me great answers, it's really exciting for me to 325 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: ask Jamie what about when people thank you for your service? 326 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: And he's like, I just don't know about that. What 327 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: I got from him is that a lot of the 328 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: folk who thank him for service don't understand what his 329 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: service is and continues to be he's struggling. If I 330 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: got text from him yesterday, he's been out of the 331 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: military for quite some time and he's in hospital today. 332 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: He struggling with a heart condition that was brought on 333 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: direct result of his service. He calls it the gift 334 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: that keeps on giving. He's dealing with probably the lifetime 335 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: of health issues from what happened to him on the 336 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 1: carry aircraft carrier that he worked on. So the movies 337 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: come alive with detail. The songs are little movies, and 338 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: the vet's just give me the detail if I ask 339 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: them the right questions. Is that the same process you 340 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: put yourself through. Absolutely, you ask yourself those questions. Yep. 341 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 1: Do you see the movie first or do you have 342 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: to build the movie? Build a movie. I never know 343 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: how it's gonna end. In this song, when the last 344 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: line became clear that it was gonna rain, we both screamed. 345 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: It's so perfect. It's so perfect. We didn't know it 346 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: was gonna rain. It was coming along and it was 347 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: just we both went as it begins to rain, and 348 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: we just screamed because it's just like and then the 349 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: curtain closes. The songs have their own intelligence. In many ways, 350 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: we're just trying to get David out of the marble, 351 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: like Michael Azelo said, But in other ways, I kind 352 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: of know I got the chisel and the hammer. I 353 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: kind of know where to bang. Okay, I'm going to 354 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: try and steal some more of your tricks for our listeners. 355 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: Pretend I'm sitting here, I'm not a veteran. I've got 356 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: a guitar in my hand, and I wish it were 357 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: as nice as your nineteen fifty Gibson, which is really beautiful. 358 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: I know three or four chords, like most people do. 359 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 1: Where do I start? Well, you ask yourself what matters 360 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: to me today, what's important to me today, what's going 361 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: on inside me today? What are my concerns areas of concern? Well, 362 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: I teach songwriting a lot, and my hope for each 363 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: student is that they write the songs only they can write. 364 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: You know, everybody wants to be their hero or sound 365 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: like Bob Dylan, But Bob's got that covered. And I 366 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: think that we each have songs only we can write. 367 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: And so my guide would, my guidance would be to 368 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: address your areas of concern, deep concern. What really matters 369 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: to you today, what's really bugging you today? What's bringing 370 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: great joy today? I don't know if you're can write 371 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: a happy song or sad song. I don't know your 372 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: mood yet, but be honest about it. In your song 373 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: and just come up with three chords that sound like 374 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: that feeling and let it start to be guided with 375 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: an invisible hand that I don't have a name for. 376 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,239 Speaker 1: It exists for all of us. If we ask it 377 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: to help us, it will Does every one of your 378 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: songs have in the writing have that kind of Eureka 379 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: moment like when you realized that it was going to 380 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: rain at the end of his song. No, not all 381 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: of them, but I think the good ones all do. Yeah, 382 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: the good ones all contain what I call a godline, 383 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: a line that is so good I couldn't have possibly 384 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: written it that it came through me more than from me. 385 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: And I look at the page and go, oh my god, 386 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: look at that. Are you one of Because your song 387 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: seems so focused and so concentrated. I think most people 388 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: who listen to you imagine that that you just write 389 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: these songs and that these little jewels and you uncover them. 390 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: Are you that kind of writer or are you a 391 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: kind of let a thousand flowers bloom? You write a 392 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: lot of songs and then whittle them down a whittle 393 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: hard work. Yeah, The simplicity is because I've edited it 394 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: and edited it and edited it even in individual songs. 395 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: How many verses would you write? Well, I write, I 396 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 1: write more verses than you hear. But each line I 397 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,959 Speaker 1: could easily spend the whole day, eight hours on a 398 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,479 Speaker 1: line you're writing often reminds me of Leonard Cohen's. Well, 399 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: Leonard's one of my heroes who wrote pages and pages 400 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: of lyrics to get it down to that, to that 401 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: very and you have the same quality of being able 402 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: to take something very large and amorphous, a feeling and 403 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: put it in very concrete language. Yeah, it starts a 404 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: morphous for me too, very very large and amorphous, and 405 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: the process of getting it too simple is quite complex. Actually, 406 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: there's just a feeling in my gut that says you're 407 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: not there yet, and I honor it and it it 408 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 1: makes me work harder, and I don't let I don't 409 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 1: let myself off the hook very easily. I just keep 410 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: going and try to get to that truth that I 411 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: know is underneath all of the almost truths. Do you 412 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: write every day? No, I have zero discipline around writing. Okay, 413 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: what makes you sit down and write? Then? Well, with 414 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: the vets, it's urgent, I'm sating, I'm sat down in 415 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: front of them and I got to get them a song, 416 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: and I got two hours. These all these songs are 417 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: written in less than two hours, so I don't do 418 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,239 Speaker 1: the hardcore witty thing with these as I would with 419 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: my own. So that's urgent. I gotta do it. What 420 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: gets me to write a song these days are intense 421 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: emotions and the confusion co writes help. I mean, I 422 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: live in Nashville. It's co writing town, and we sit 423 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: down with co writer and have some coffee and talk 424 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,959 Speaker 1: about life, and that'll get me to a song. But 425 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: I'm not. Uh. Yeah, I wish I was more disciplined 426 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: around that. I wish I produced more songs. I want 427 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: to ask you about something you said a couple of 428 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 1: years ago when you released an album. You said you 429 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: were at a point in your life that you wanted 430 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: to de romanticize romantic love, but you were through with 431 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: the idea of romantic love. I was through with the 432 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: idea that romantic love was gonna save me. There's a difference. Okay. 433 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: For the longest time, I thought romantic love would fix me, 434 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: kind of like the way I thought booze and dope 435 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: were going to make me less anxious. I thought romantic 436 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: love was going to make problems go away. I think 437 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: the move towards de romanticizing romantic love is a move 438 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: towards adulthood. In some ways, I believe in romance. I 439 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: believe in romantic love. I'm currently in love in fact, 440 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: but it ain't gonna fix me. The problems that I 441 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: take into romantic love will remain the problems that I 442 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: have to deal with. What did you think romantic love 443 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: was going to fix when you belie leaves that romantic 444 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: left could fix you? Oh God, you know that's a 445 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: hard question. You're going Barbara Walters on me here, I'm 446 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: going to ask you what kind of tree you would be? Now? Yeah. 447 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: I think for the most part of my life, I've 448 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: been incredibly lonely. Music has helped ease that loneliness by 449 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: connecting me to people and the process of working in 450 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: therapy on a lot of the stuff that happened when 451 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: I was a baby that year in the orphanage has 452 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: a greater impact than if you'd have told me the 453 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: impact of that when I was twenty. I mean, it 454 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: would have just destroyed me because I wouldn't expect it 455 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 1: fifty going on seven that I'd still be dealing I'm 456 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: going to be dealing with that for the rest of 457 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: my life. We think of as an infide as, they 458 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: don't remember it, so it really isn't going to have 459 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: an impact. Turns out it affects the brain chemistry and 460 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: it leaves a traumatic imprint on the brain to not 461 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: be held as a baby. And there is something about 462 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: romantic love that I thought would replace the affection I 463 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: didn't get as a baby, and I had to come 464 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: to terms with the reality is I have to I 465 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: have to learn how to deal with that in a 466 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 1: way that it isn't going to make someone else my savior. 467 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: So we still believe in romantic love. Absolutely, you're putting 468 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: it its place. What comes along after, what sustains people. 469 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking particularly of a lot of the people 470 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: you were working with on this most recent album, what's 471 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: the stains in them? It's not romantic love. What Guther said, oh, 472 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: we really are is hoping machines. And so you have 473 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: to have hope. And there are many, many, many forms 474 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,719 Speaker 1: of love. Romantic love is only one. We kind of 475 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: idealize that. I think culturally, well certainly songs have idealized that. 476 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: But if you were to asked me how the veterans 477 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: in that position of de romanticizing romantic love or able 478 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: to keep it going. I think that's their love of 479 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: each other. It's it's it's it is love, but it's 480 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: the love. It's family love. It's making its family of choice, 481 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: it's hope and again back to the power of grace. 482 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: Can you uh, can you finish by doing mercy now? 483 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: Would be my pleasure. I love Jamie's playing on that. 484 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: I love that one little dissondant note. I thought, is 485 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: that a mistake? But then she know she pulled it off. 486 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: To learn more about Marygotier, go to Marigotier dot com 487 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: to hear other Broken Record episodes and also a playlist 488 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: of marygoche songs. Head to Broken Record podcast dot com. 489 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: Broken re Kurt is produced by Justin Richmond and Jason Gimbrel, 490 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: with help from me LaBelle, Jacob Smith, Julia Barton, and 491 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: Jacob Weissberg. Our Broken Record theme music is by the 492 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: Great Kenny Beats. This show is brought to you by 493 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. For my co hosts Malcolm Gladwell and Rick Rubin. 494 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: I'm Bruce Headlin.