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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Governor Pritzker says that Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: essentially just declared war on the city of Chicago. We

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Speaker 1: have such a great show for you today. Notice the zone.

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Speaker 1: Evan McMorris, Santorro stops by to talk Trump going to

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Speaker 1: war on an American city. Then we'll talk to doctor

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Speaker 1: Peter Hotez and Michael E. Mann about their new book

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Speaker 1: Science under Siege, how to fight the five most powerful

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Speaker 1: forces that throughout in our world. But first we have

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Speaker 1: the news.

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Speaker 2: Ollie.

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Speaker 3: We used to do a podcast together called The New Abnormal,

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Speaker 3: and things are feeling really fucking abnormal.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to take a minute here to talk

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Speaker 1: about this moment we're in because I think it's really

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Speaker 1: really important. The Administration has hit a boat in international

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Speaker 1: waters outside of the coast of Venezuela. They say the

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Speaker 1: boat is drug dealers. We don't know yet. It may be,

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Speaker 1: it may not be. It tends to be that. The

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Speaker 1: rules are that unless you're in war, you're not allowed

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Speaker 1: to kill boatloads of people, whether or not they are

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Speaker 1: drug dealers. So this is a real abandonment of due process,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the things that makes America great

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Speaker 1: and keeps us all safe. Then we have Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: this morning musing about going into Chicago because he wants

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Speaker 1: to go to war with the city. Are using a

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Speaker 1: lot of excuses, but the reality is that's what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: It is at all points a real assault on our democracy,

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Speaker 1: an assault on the way we've known. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: have never lived in a time in this country where

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Speaker 1: a political party is so out of balance, where Republicans

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Speaker 1: are not running checks and balances on their own guy,

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Speaker 1: where the president is completely unfettered and feels he can

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Speaker 1: do whatever he wants and behaves basically like a monarch.

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Speaker 1: And it's just really scary. And so I understand that

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Speaker 1: when we're looking at the news and we're talking about

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Speaker 1: what's happening and want listeners to understand that we do

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Speaker 1: see how this is not how any of this is

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Speaker 1: supposed to work. That we have three branches of government.

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Speaker 1: The Congress is supposed to run a check on the executive.

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Speaker 1: The executive is supposed to be checked by both Congress

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Speaker 1: and the courts. And what's happening right now with the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court and the tank for Trump, and an executive

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Speaker 1: branch that seems hell bent on the unitary executive theory

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Speaker 1: a kind of right. There have been conservative scholars who

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Speaker 1: have created a framework for Donald Trump to be a monarch,

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Speaker 1: and that is what we're looking at right now. And

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court is stacked with people who are absolutely

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Speaker 1: committed to letting Donald Trump rule this country in a

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Speaker 1: way we have never seen. The Founders were scared of

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Speaker 1: a monarch. The conservative legal system is now in a

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Speaker 1: place to create one, and they have been working towards this,

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Speaker 1: and so every Supreme Court decision really matters. If Trump

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Speaker 1: loses on tariffs, that's a very good thing, even though

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Speaker 1: the people challenging him are other Republicans. And we just

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Speaker 1: have to hope and that there will be that there

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Speaker 1: will be a few Republicans who will stand up to Trump,

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Speaker 1: that there will be some people on the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: who realize how slippery this slope we're on is. Look,

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Speaker 1: we're in that squishy middle between what was normal American

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Speaker 1: democracy for so many years and what is this sort

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Speaker 1: of middle ground that gets us to authoritarianism. And I

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Speaker 1: really do hope that there are enough brave people to

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Speaker 1: stand up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do too.

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Speaker 3: The good news is is it We always worried that

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Speaker 3: if we got to these moments, that the people wouldn't

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Speaker 3: even see it. And I think that that was my

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Speaker 3: great fear when Trump was reelected. But according to some

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Speaker 3: polling that you and I were just looking at, the

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Speaker 3: people are really seeing this shit for what it is

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Speaker 3: and they're not happy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think, look the tennis The reason the

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Speaker 1: Tennis Association said, like, don't show the booing, and the

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Speaker 1: reason that Donald Trump is so set to rig the

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Speaker 1: midterms is because they understand. They get it. They know

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Speaker 1: what they're doing isn't popular. And you know, sixty five

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Speaker 1: percent of Americans seeing that Trump is making things more expensive,

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Speaker 1: they get it. They know we're really seeing a moment

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Speaker 1: where the American people know what's happening. The elites, on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, the business leaders who are going to

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Speaker 1: the White House and telling mister Trump what a genius

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Speaker 1: he is in order to get tariff cut ats, they

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Speaker 1: may not get it.

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Speaker 3: Breaking land speed records, saying thank you in two minutes

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Speaker 3: a million times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean, look, it's not potocracy. They have

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Speaker 1: to please the autocat but they really don't. And the

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Speaker 1: fact that they're all doing this, and by the way,

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Speaker 1: you know, I just want to pause for a second.

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Speaker 1: If those billionaires had all said no, that they weren't

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Speaker 1: going to go to the White House, you know what

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Speaker 1: would have happened. Yeah, he would have caved on the tariffs. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he would have caved on all the tariffs. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he's not going to go to war with every tech bro.

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Speaker 1: You know, if these wealthy people would get together and

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Speaker 1: all be brave together, they'll be fine. One by one

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Speaker 1: they can get ticked off, but if everyone gets together

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Speaker 1: and is actually brave together, they would be fine. But

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Speaker 1: that's not what's happening.

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Speaker 3: No, speaking of new levels of depravity, many people are

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Speaker 3: very alarmed with just Dance Vance's comments on Rand Paul

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Speaker 3: tweet that blasted our policy of bombing a drug quote

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Speaker 3: unquote drug vessel. Since we don't know, there's been an

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Speaker 3: interesting reaction to this. Molly, what are you see in here?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? This is so very very jd Vance. One of

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Speaker 1: the things jd Vance does is he does trump Ism

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Speaker 1: harder than Trump. It's interesting because it's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: Trump loves a convert and that's what this is, right,

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Speaker 1: a convert who is doing trump Ism harder than Trump.

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Speaker 1: So basically here's what happens. Rand Paul and the very

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Speaker 1: few Republicans who have not become huge cowards are weirdly

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Speaker 1: the Libertarians. And again, I think it's important to remember

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Speaker 1: my friend Mondair Jones had a really good tweet about this,

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Speaker 1: because I think this is a really important part of

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Speaker 1: this story, which is that Rand Paul really does not

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Speaker 1: occupy the moral high ground like this is what monde

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Speaker 1: Are tweeted. Difficult to describe how dark this period in

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Speaker 1: American politics must be for even Rand Paul, who single

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Speaker 1: handedly blocked federal anti lynching legislation for years, to have

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Speaker 1: to get on this app and incredulously ask the Vice

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Speaker 1: President whether he ever read to kill a mocking bird. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so I really do think it's important to realize that, like,

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Speaker 1: none of these people are heroes, but Rand Paul does

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Speaker 1: in fact understand due process. First of all, and again,

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Speaker 1: nobody knows if it's a drug vessel, so maybe it is,

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Speaker 1: maybe it isn't as the highest and best use of

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Speaker 1: our military slamming this sentiment as despicable and thoughtless, but

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Speaker 1: it's also a breach of international protocol, like if another

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Speaker 1: country blew up a ship in our waters, say they

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Speaker 1: went and blew up a ship in the Gulf of America.

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Speaker 1: You'll remember that one. By the way, if all the

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Speaker 1: members of the press had said we're going to go

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Speaker 1: with the Associated Press when the Associated Press was banned

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Speaker 1: from the White House, then Trump would have had to

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Speaker 1: have let them back in. I mean, this is what

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Speaker 1: has happened, is like every point people have gone along

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Speaker 1: to get along, and they fucked themselves and everyone else.

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Speaker 3: One of the things I think about a lot is

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Speaker 3: in union culture, the word solidarity is the most important word.

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Speaker 3: And this is a time that we need solidarity between

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Speaker 3: the press and solidarity against this regime.

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Speaker 1: Yeah so again, rand Paul jd Vance said he doesn't care.

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Speaker 1: Then jd Vance and Crassenstein got into it, which is,

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Speaker 1: by the way, if anyone remembers from season one of

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Speaker 1: this disaster, the Crassenstein's are these Twitter guys who are

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Speaker 1: very involved in all sorts of problems.

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Speaker 3: They were thrown off Twitter famously for doing inauthentic behavior

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Speaker 3: and using body coast arms Yeah yeah, to praise their

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Speaker 3: own tweets. Yeah yeah, real, real cool.

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Speaker 1: Stuff, and also maybe other stuff. None of it's good.

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Speaker 1: So but they're very liberal, or they're sort of liberal,

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Speaker 1: or they're whatever. Anyway, they push back to it, and

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Speaker 1: Jadvans is like, killing cartel members who poison our fellow

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Speaker 1: citizens is the highest and best use of our military.

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Speaker 1: Brian Krassenstein says killing civilians of another nation who are

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Speaker 1: civilians without any due process is called a war crime.

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Speaker 1: Now I would add that it's not actually a war,

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Speaker 1: so it's actually a lot worse because if you declare war,

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Speaker 1: there are different rules. But if you do not declare war,

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Speaker 1: you're just doing even sort of worse stuff. Jdevans writes back,

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Speaker 1: I don't give a shit what you call it. So

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Speaker 1: this is why Trump loves a convert.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I get really really depressed at the subject.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people are like, oh, it's the find out,

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Speaker 3: but this is a little too much find out for

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Speaker 3: me personally. Trump's Dow law will limit payments to hospitals

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Speaker 3: that treat low income patients, and the changes to Medicaid

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Speaker 3: are going to be extremely harmful to rural hospitals.

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Speaker 2: And this could be a lot of.

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Speaker 3: People who are going to die from this because the

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Speaker 3: hospital is going to be too far away when hospitals,

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Speaker 3: because we're already seeing this in the South that a

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Speaker 3: bunch of hospitals that were destroyed in the flooding are

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Speaker 3: making it so it's very hard for people to get

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Speaker 3: care in time.

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Speaker 2: It's really really awful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So they're going to limit payments to hospitals that

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Speaker 1: treat low incompatience. This is Trump voters, basically, critics Warren.

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Speaker 1: The change to Medicaid will be particularly harmful to rural

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Speaker 1: hospitals struggling stay afloat. Now, they did this voodoo thing

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Speaker 1: with the numbers where they cut one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: billion dollars to rural hospitals. And then you had RFK

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Speaker 1: Junior last week talking to Bernie Sanders and he said,

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Speaker 1: we've done fifty billion dollars, so we've saved rural hospitals.

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Speaker 1: But what they've done is they've restored a little bit

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Speaker 1: of the money, so they're still out one hundred billion dollars.

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Speaker 1: This is going to be the thing that is going

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Speaker 1: to close rural hospitals and a lot of these towns

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Speaker 1: the only employer is the hospital or it's the largest employer,

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Speaker 1: so you'll have a rural hospital you'll have. The Mississippi

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Speaker 1: Hospital Association says expects Mississippi to get at least so

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Speaker 1: it was going to get five hundred million over the

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Speaker 1: next five years. I mean, this is just going to

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Speaker 1: close all these hospitals and all these people are going

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Speaker 1: to die.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So, speaking of things that aren't good, Trump didn't notify

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Speaker 3: Congress about a high Stake seal mission, and it seems

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Speaker 3: that that breach is a protocol with Congress, and this

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Speaker 3: could be a sticking point for mister Trump, according to

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Speaker 3: The New York Times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, it's like Republicans will probably go

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Speaker 1: along with it because they don't care. And I think

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Speaker 1: like one of the things I think about, like during

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Speaker 1: the RFK hearing, a lot of these Republicans gave RFK

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Speaker 1: a hard time. But they could really put the sand

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Speaker 1: in the gears. They could stop the government from working,

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Speaker 1: They could do all sorts of things to get RFK out.

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Speaker 1: They could say that RFK must resign. And they didn't

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Speaker 1: do any of that. They just you know, said that

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Speaker 1: they didn't have his full confidence. I mean, like, until

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Speaker 1: Republicans do any kind of oversight, we're just going to

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Speaker 1: be in free fall here. But the seal story is

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Speaker 1: interesting because it's from Trump's first administration. So it means

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Speaker 1: that even when they were pretending to follow the law,

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Speaker 1: they weren't, which I think is probably pretty important and relevant. Also,

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Speaker 1: they killed all these fishermen, They shot and killed everyone

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Speaker 1: aboard the vessel. They turned out to be unarmed civilians.

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Speaker 1: We didn't learn about it for six years, probably not

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Speaker 1: a great sign. And the whole idea was that we're

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Speaker 1: doing it because of why because we're going to war

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Speaker 1: with North Korea. No, because they wanted to do some

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Speaker 1: listening device. I mean, I don't know. We're just seeing

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Speaker 1: so much carnage from this administration, even carnage we didn't

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Speaker 1: even know about.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 1: Evan mc morris Santorro is a reporter at Notice. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 2: Evan, so good to be here again. As always, thinks

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Speaker 2: are not going great.

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Speaker 4: Well, I you know, it's it's a comparative issue, Like

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Speaker 4: I mean, I would say that August there was a

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Speaker 4: lot more fun because I was on vacation at some

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Speaker 4: points and things were quiet. And now we're in September

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Speaker 4: and so it just sort of is generally worse because

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Speaker 4: things are very busy and crazy.

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Speaker 2: But on the other hand, we're into some.

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Speaker 4: Actual you know, legislating and lawmaking and fighting and campaigning

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Speaker 4: all sorts of stuff. So it's worse because it's busier

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Speaker 4: and things are actually happening, but also, you know, things

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Speaker 4: are happening, so that can be good, you know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's sort of like how you

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Speaker 2: decide to look at it.

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Speaker 1: Because Donald Trump is saying that he's going to declare

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Speaker 1: war with the city of Chicago. So Trump had this

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Speaker 1: meme that was like, I love the smell of deportation

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Speaker 1: in the morning, right, mean, to trigger the libs. I

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Speaker 1: think one of the big fallacies of the last decade

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Speaker 1: and dealing with Trump is that two things can be true.

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Speaker 1: He wants to trigger the libs and he also wants

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Speaker 1: to end on norms and institution.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's exactly right. I mean, you know, exactly right.

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Speaker 4: I mean the old quote, right was take him seriously

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Speaker 4: but not literally.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 4: That was the original thing that you know, came now

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Speaker 4: when he first ran and this idea that he's the

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Speaker 4: people who are at his rallies are having a good

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Speaker 4: time termed of playing along. Selena's and Helena Zita yeah,

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Speaker 4: go on, the reality of the situation is that now

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Speaker 4: you should take him serious and literally.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is a guy who.

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Speaker 4: Created something called the Department of War and is now

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Speaker 4: talking about war.

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Speaker 1: So like it on Chicago, but of the sort of

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Speaker 1: bad stuff. Over the weekend, there was him deciding he's

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Speaker 1: going to declare war on Chicago, fresh off of his

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Speaker 1: administration losing you know, declaring war on Los Angeles basically

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Speaker 1: in last season, and then that war was the courts

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Speaker 1: were like, no, no, you can't actually do that because

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Speaker 1: we have this thing called the Pasa Coma Tatis Act, right,

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Speaker 1: and then he was like, oh, okay, I lost in court,

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Speaker 1: so I planned to invade Chicago.

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Speaker 4: In fact, the judge actually went even farther than saying,

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Speaker 4: you can't do this because we have Passekama tatis. You know,

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Speaker 4: the judge didn't even say and you should know. The

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Speaker 4: judge says, you do know that we have it, and

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Speaker 4: you willfully ignored it. I mean, it was a very

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Speaker 4: strong attack on this president's attempt to use federal troops

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Speaker 4: as law enforcement.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: But this whole argument that's going on, it's this idea,

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Speaker 4: this is you know, it's this base play that the

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Speaker 4: idea is he's just going to keep trying to push

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Speaker 4: the out. But now again we get into that weird

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Speaker 4: moment with Trump where says I'm going to do it.

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Speaker 4: I'm not saying when I'm going to do it. I'm

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Speaker 4: just saying I am going to do it. I'm not

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Speaker 4: saying what it's going to be able to say I'm

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Speaker 4: going to do it. You know, there's some reports about

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Speaker 4: him engaging with a Navy base up there to base

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Speaker 4: ice operations out of We have seen a lot of

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Speaker 4: moments where the courts have come in and sort of

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Speaker 4: like pushed this administration out of the way, and they

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Speaker 4: have like tried to ignore them but kind of listen

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Speaker 4: to them and continue to push forward and can push forward.

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Speaker 4: And once again, this is one of the circumstances in

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Speaker 4: which the US Supreme Court is going to have to

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Speaker 4: eventually weigh in and make a decision on this one

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Speaker 4: way or another right because of course, the ruling in

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Speaker 4: Los Angeles, thanks to a previous Supreme Court ruling, you know,

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Speaker 4: in part, only applies to Los Angeles. So Trump can

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Speaker 4: try to do what he did in Los Angeles in

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Speaker 4: another city and you have to then go ahead and

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Speaker 4: sue him again in that city. So legally it's very messy.

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Speaker 4: But as you say, there's no indication here that this

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Speaker 4: administration is at all, it isn't slowing down in this present.

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Speaker 2: In fact, they're ramping it up, Wisha. You know, with

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Speaker 2: Los Angeles it was like.

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Speaker 4: We were there to protect these law enforcement officers who

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Speaker 4: were enforcing this stuff.

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Speaker 2: With DC, it was okay in DC, lookers, a crime

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Speaker 2: is out of control. We're coming here to get rid

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Speaker 2: of the crime.

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Speaker 4: With Chicago, it's like Chicago is an enemy of us.

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Speaker 4: We have to go to war with their election defessionals.

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Speaker 1: Because we don't like their governor because he's richer than

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Speaker 1: Trump is, I mean really and a liberal. I mean

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of and Obama's from there. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's not what my favorite part of the whole story

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Speaker 1: is the administration says we are going into Chicago because

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Speaker 1: of immigration, and Donald Trump says We're going into Chicago

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Speaker 1: because of crime.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: And also, I mean, look, I think that you know,

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Speaker 4: this is one of those things where we live in

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Speaker 4: a separate Americas when it comes to narratives, right, and

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Speaker 4: if you live in one America, you are looking at

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Speaker 4: a city that went through a really rough time in

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Speaker 4: the pandemic and then with this huge migrant surge like

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Speaker 4: a lot of Americans and these did and is releasing

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Speaker 4: its crime drop a great deal. If you're living in

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Speaker 4: a different America, you have watched this city elect an

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Speaker 4: extremely left wing mayor, and the belief is that this

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Speaker 4: is a say that is completely out of control crime

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Speaker 4: wise and has to be you know, taken by force

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Speaker 4: and ramped to the ground. The question, of course comes,

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Speaker 4: where is the middle of that right and where do

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Speaker 4: those moderate voters or those independent voters, how do they

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Speaker 4: look at this stuff? And you know, last time you

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Speaker 4: and I talked, we talked a bit about how, like

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Speaker 4: some of these podcasts, bros like Tim Dillon, etc. Had

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Speaker 4: started to say, Hey, this looks a lot like the

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Speaker 4: kind of stuff that the real weirdos like Alex Jones,

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Speaker 4: you know, have been saying for years be scared of.

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Speaker 4: And now as it ramps up, we'll see if they

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Speaker 4: go along with it or don't. I mean, it's it's

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Speaker 4: a very interesting moment for him politically, but it really is,

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Speaker 4: I would imagine, pretty terrifying if you are a person.

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Speaker 2: Who lives in Chicago, because you don't know what you're

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Speaker 2: gonna do.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it's important to like, none of this

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Speaker 1: is okay, Like no other president would do this. It's

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Speaker 1: not okay. It's against the Constitution and against the law,

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Speaker 1: which is why he keeps losing a court. So even

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Speaker 1: if the political calculus, like we're looking at the political calculus,

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Speaker 1: which is certainly important, the larger like American democracy story,

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Speaker 1: which is that this is unprecedented, and so we have

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Speaker 1: opened the door if Donald Trump, if his presidency ends,

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Speaker 1: which we assume it will at some point, we are

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Speaker 1: now in uncharted territories. Right. That's then the question of

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Speaker 1: like when you see stuff like this, I know it's

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Speaker 1: out of fashion to say like, oh my god, because

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Speaker 1: part of the reason he does it is to say,

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Speaker 1: oh my god. But it is truly like uncharted territory.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think oh my god is a very important

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Speaker 4: aspect of it. I Mean, the thing is, I think

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Speaker 4: what you're talking about is also politics too.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 4: I interviewed Catherine Cortez Mastow, the senator out of Nevada,

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Speaker 4: the other day, and we're talking about a lot of

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Speaker 4: stuff that's going on right this this is a month

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Speaker 4: about spending bills and a month you know about you know,

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Speaker 4: all the sort of leveraging the power of the purse,

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Speaker 4: et cetera. And Cortes Masto is a person who wants

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Speaker 4: to be She's a Democrat who wants to find a

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Speaker 4: middle path, you know, a way where we can get

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Speaker 4: back to compromise and sort of traditional order. The kind

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Speaker 4: of democrat a lot of left wing democrats.

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Speaker 2: Don't like a lot. This is what she's trying to do.

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Speaker 2: And the thing is she said this amazing thing to me.

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Speaker 4: Where she was like the weirdest thing for me about this,

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Speaker 4: you know, she says is there are all these Republicans

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Speaker 4: in this entire branch of government and they're not doing

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Speaker 4: anything about it. This, I mean, our system is designed

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Speaker 4: with a check and balance system. The most amazing thing

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Speaker 4: is Trump, who has all this power, actually has an

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Speaker 4: equal check in the legislative branch. Right, and so the

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Speaker 4: idea of two branches of government sort of being taken.

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Speaker 2: This is the part that's very, very crazy. Right.

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Speaker 4: We've had presidents before who have a lot of delusions

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Speaker 4: of grandeur, and we're to try a bunch of stuff

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Speaker 4: that they are not legally allowed to do.

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Speaker 2: Other branches come in and smack them down.

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Speaker 4: Right now, you have a situation where this president wants

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Speaker 4: to do stuff, the legislative branch appears to so far

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Speaker 4: have zero interest in stopping or doing anything about it,

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Speaker 4: which leads it up to this judicial branch. And you know,

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Speaker 4: we've been seeing sort of the limits of the power

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Speaker 4: of that, and also we've been seeing both the legislative

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Speaker 4: branch and the executive branch pushing against those limits really

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Speaker 4: really hard, because they are.

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Speaker 2: Kind of united.

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Speaker 4: And that is the part that is kind of a

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Speaker 4: political question, because it's that legislative branch, of course, that

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Speaker 4: voters are going to be asked to weigh in on

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Speaker 4: next year. And so while Trump is operating in the

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Speaker 4: sort of capacity of where I am the second term president,

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Speaker 4: I can nothing can happen to me. I can do

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Speaker 4: whatever I want. He is dragging along hundreds of people

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Speaker 4: for whom they will have to answer for this. And

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Speaker 4: that's why, to me, the question always is what will

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Speaker 4: happen when that answering has to happen. Will people go

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Speaker 4: along with it? We will they be upset? We don't

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Speaker 4: totally know yet, but it is an oh my god moment.

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Speaker 4: Of course, it's a oh my god moment. But it

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Speaker 4: also put them over the same.

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Speaker 1: Time, right, And we can see the polling, which is

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Speaker 1: not great though he's always doesen't polls so well. Though

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Speaker 1: he's underwater on issues which he used to never be

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Speaker 1: underwater on. I'm thinking about things like immigration and the economy.

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Speaker 1: And then you seeing these polls that showed that like

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Speaker 1: sixty three percent of Americans believe Trump is making things

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Speaker 1: more expensive. That's crazy. I mean, that's even Trump's people

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Speaker 1: are saying that he's making things more expensive.

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Speaker 4: Well, this is a central issue with this Trump second term,

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Speaker 4: which is that when they were elected, the big conversation was,

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Speaker 4: oh wow, these these Trumps. This maga is so much

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Speaker 4: more disciplined and politically organized than the previous one, and

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Speaker 4: they really know what they're doing and they're not gonna

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Speaker 4: be all scattershot and all over the map.

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Speaker 2: And the reality is some.

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Speaker 4: Of these really big, hard problems that like Biden couldn't

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Speaker 4: figure a way out of, for example, rising prices, et cetera,

437
00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 4: this administration is both exacerbating with its policies and also.

438
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,919
Speaker 2: Can't figure out a way out of. Politically, we are

439
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 2: really seeing.

440
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 4: As time goes on a kind of flopping around in

441
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 4: the bottom of the boat when it comes to this administration,

442
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 4: that was not seen in the opening months, right, that

443
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 4: went back when they oh, my god, these guys are magic.

444
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:17,959
Speaker 2: They can do anything.

445
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 4: No one can stop to look at the you know,

446
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 4: they broadly rewrite all of US policy with the stroke

447
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,360
Speaker 4: of a pen, all this kind of stuff. But now

448
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 4: we are seeing a thing in which, you know, these

449
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 4: judges are smacking them down. These prices are changing. And

450
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 4: as we have learned many times before, right, this immigration

451
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 4: policy that they're doing is not exactly what they promised.

452
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 2: You know, they promised a lot of different stuff.

453
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 4: The President did say a number of occasions, we're gonna

454
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 4: get twenty million people out of this country.

455
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 2: They're going to go, they have to go.

456
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously this is that would suggest the maxi

457
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 4: importation scheme. But we also know that when they when

458
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 4: they tried to do some of this harsher stuff in

459
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 4: the first administration, it caused a public blowback. And I

460
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 4: think that this is the thing now where they have

461
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 4: yet to manage the politics of America being more compassionate

462
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,679
Speaker 4: about this than maybe they think that they are, and

463
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 4: maybe more cognitive of how it actually works me a

464
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 4: commedy than they think that they are. And so now

465
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 4: you're seeing a situation now where they're kind of they

466
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 4: have not yet solved that political problem either. To my eye,

467
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 4: you were looking at an administration that looks like a

468
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 4: lot of other ones when it comes to this period

469
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 4: of time, which is that the sort of end of

470
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 4: the part where it's only about Trump is sort of

471
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 4: starting to end. You know, when all we're talking about

472
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 4: is the last election, and now we're going to start

473
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 4: talking about the next election. And that is when people

474
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 4: start to worry about where they're standing and who they're

475
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 4: standing next to. And I don't know that Trump has

476
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 4: completely made it that everybody wants to stand next to

477
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 4: him right now, like a lot of incoming presidents, don't

478
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 4: you know.

479
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 1: Right Well, also they're booing him, by the way, that

480
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 1: was genius said that. I'm not sure whose order it was.

481
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 1: Don't show the boo wang when Trump.

482
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 4: Oh yes, the UST So the US right put out

483
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 4: a memo telling people at the US broadcasts at the

484
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 4: US Open not to show any disruption or booing of

485
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 4: the president at the US Open.

486
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: I say, an effect in action, right.

487
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:18,479
Speaker 2: That's a interesting way of looking at it.

488
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: Okay, don't videotape my enormous house. I don't want anyone

489
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: to see it, Okay, Like, please don't do any coverage

490
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: of my private jet ride. I mean it's just like so,

491
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: of course every video on my social media feed is

492
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 1: people booing Trump at that tennis match.

493
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: And you don't think it's more mixed than that Mali

494
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: of maybe that.

495
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to know what they're more, all right,

496
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 1: So the first one is that it's sort of mixed,

497
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: but there's not a lot of people there, but there

498
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: are now more and more and more. The other thing

499
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: is like these people had to wait for hours and

500
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: hours for the mags, because if you're going to do

501
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: a thing with Trump, they make sure you don't have

502
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: a gun. I mean, any president and I have had

503
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: to wait for mags. So they are now mad too

504
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: because they've had to wait much longer.

505
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean some of them missed the event or

506
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: missed the beginning of the banker. They were stuck outside

507
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 2: trying to get in, like you could.

508
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 1: Get boot for that. That's a nonpartisan thing, but I

509
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 1: do think that obviously these are people who are worried

510
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 1: about his approval rating. And they're worried about what's going on.

511
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 1: I want to get to this study because Jesse is

512
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 1: obsessed with this study. Producer, Jesse desperately wants you to

513
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: talk about this study. To talk about this study.

514
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 2: Well, look, it's the.

515
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 4: Kind of thing that I really nerd out about Molly,

516
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 4: which would as you know, and I'm sure by now

517
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 4: people who listen to your show. No, I am a

518
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 4: pretty big nerve it comes this stuff and like, yeah,

519
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 4: I was talking to strategies not long ago. This is

520
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 4: a great month to talk about this study actually about

521
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 4: sort of this thing that happens in political language where

522
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 4: the party that people like it seems like, why can't

523
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 4: they say anything in a normal way, Why can't they

524
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 4: talk in a way where they look what's going on?

525
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 4: Why is it that they sound so ridiculous? Well, this

526
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,719
Speaker 4: there's a study in Comparative Politics, this you know, this

527
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 4: this journal that does this kind of nerdy stuff, and

528
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 4: they analyze twenty five years of speeches by Danish members

529
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 4: of parliament and government ministers. Okay, so they got one

530
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 4: hundred and like more than a million speeches, right, and

531
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 4: they found this thing that happened that when people were

532
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 4: getting elected while they're on their way to getting elected,

533
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 4: people understood what they were talking about.

534
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 2: They spoken this very.

535
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 4: Clean and easy to understand way. People knew what they

536
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 4: were saying, and once they got elected, they all of

537
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 4: a sudden started using these like rarer words and longer sences.

538
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 4: They started talking about all this less politically relevant stuff

539
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 4: like about you know, regulation, you know, there's you know,

540
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 4: there's everything back of that.

541
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 2: You know that Biden administration would kind of tell you that, look,

542
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 2: the economy is really good.

543
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 4: Look at this graph for example, right, And it was like,

544
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 4: why are you This is insane?

545
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 2: Why are you saying this? Everybody thinks it's horrible. Why

546
00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 2: are you pointing at this chart?

547
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 4: Well, it turned out this is like a thing alast

548
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 4: according to the study, right, that that happens across politics.

549
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 4: And the most amazing part of it, right is it

550
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 4: doesn't matter what party you were in or what political

551
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 4: ideology you came from, But everybody sort of went into

552
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 4: this thing where they got elected and they sort of

553
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 4: got entered this hive mind of being indecipherable, and then

554
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 4: as soon as they would leave, they started sounding normal again.

555
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 2: Right.

556
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 4: So the authors started trying to figure out how this

557
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 4: worked and they found that it is like adding professional

558
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 4: staff in to help these lawmakers not do this just

559
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 4: makes it significantly worse. Right, professional staff in Denmark tended

560
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 4: to be oriented towards legal precision, nuance and policy accuracy,

561
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 4: not policy not public understanding. They push minister's rhetoric towards

562
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 4: bureaucratic ease.

563
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 2: What they need help with is making complex things simple.

564
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 4: Right, So you're the idea of your big professional class

565
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 4: that's not helping you, right, Right. Then the thing is

566
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 4: who does the best from this, right is basically all

567
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 4: of these populists that can sort of come in and

568
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 4: use this out what seems I got to our language,

569
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 4: it's actually very normal language. And I think this is

570
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 4: a really important thing to think about in this month

571
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 4: that we are in because one of the things that's

572
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 4: about to happen are Democrats and Republicans, but specifically Democrats

573
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 4: are going to be pushed very hard by their base

574
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 4: to fight over these spending bills. Right, this idea of

575
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 4: like shut the government down, don't shut the government down. Right.

576
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: And I've done a lot of reporting about this.

577
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 4: Actually, I have reporting coming out or are reporting on

578
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 4: regularly coming out about this in the notice newsletter about

579
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 4: everybody's been getting together since March when the Democrats caved

580
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 4: and caved so embarrassingly to Trump about what are they

581
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 4: supposed to do in September with this spending bill now

582
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 4: and across the entire ideology they have decided what they

583
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 4: need to do is they need to say we're going

584
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 4: to draw aligne that says we want you to restore

585
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 4: health care cuts and if you don't, we're going to

586
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 4: push you. You know, we're going to in our heels

587
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,239
Speaker 4: and maybe the government shuts down over that.

588
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: Right.

589
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 4: The idea is trying to pull this conversation back from

590
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 4: all this sort of weird bureaucratic stuff and some of

591
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 4: the people can put their hands on So we'll see

592
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 4: if it actually happens. But as you kind of like

593
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 4: not to be synick about it, but I just just

594
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 4: sort of see it not happen. Like think back to

595
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 4: his study and think about the fact that like it

596
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 4: is like one of the most difficult things for politicians

597
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 4: to do, which is actually to do this thing that

598
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 4: they that they need to do right now, which is

599
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 4: take a very complicated thing like a must pass spending bill.

600
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,959
Speaker 4: The one piece of leverage of Democrats have in this

601
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 4: trifecta and use it to score strong political points. It's very,

602
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 4: very hard for them to do it. It's been studied in Denmark,

603
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 4: you know, and as you watch it, as you watch

604
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 4: this happen, I want you think back of this study

605
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 4: and think back to the fact of just like how

606
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 4: like anathema it is to how their brains operate. This's

607
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 4: one of those INDIVI It just really made me very

608
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 4: excited when I first read this.

609
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean I think it's a good point.

610
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: And in fact, I was texting with a member this

611
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: weekend and I was saying, why does Jeffries speak in

612
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: such a deeply hard to relate to way when he

613
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: is like, clearly pretty smart guy, And they were like

614
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: the consultant class capture.

615
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 4: I mean, look at the mom Donni thing in New York.

616
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 4: I mean, Jeffres is a great example. I mean this

617
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 4: mom Donnie guy is like makes you cheaper and making

618
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 4: sure to afford rent and also like I don't like

619
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 4: this sleep, you know, I don't like this stuff. We

620
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 4: don't on in isreal or right, And we have seen

621
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 4: the Democratic Party continually find it as they try to

622
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 4: find some way to say both nothing and everything about

623
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 4: these kinds of topics that they are losing raft and

624
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 4: faith from their base.

625
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: I want a party that's as hard on Donald Trump

626
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: as it is on Mondami. I mean, what the fuck

627
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: are we doing here? He won, he won the primary.

628
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: I don't get it. And by the way, the argument

629
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: when you talk to people about it, because it's all

630
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: any Welsey and your people talk about, is that he's

631
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: an anti Semite. And I say, why is he an

632
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: anti Semite? And then the closest they can get is

633
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: he's Muslim, which does not make you an anti Semite,

634
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: It just makes you in a different religion.

635
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 4: I mean, we talk about Jerry Nadler, right, I mean,

636
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 4: you know, he's pretty strong.

637
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: I'm dying supporder.

638
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 4: I think this is one of the situations that you're

639
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 4: talking about right now, which is exactly why, despite the

640
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 4: fact that Trump is in this difficult position where he

641
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 4: is saying this stuff that is not particularly helpful to

642
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 4: the Republican Party, right, Declaring war in Chicago is not

643
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 4: particularly helpful when it comes to.

644
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 2: Talking to you know, the moderate or independent voter.

645
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 4: Right, he's talking about, you know, prices are going up,

646
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 4: not particularly helpful.

647
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: If you're a Republicans. But it's this other stuff.

648
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 4: I see moments like this that you're talking about with

649
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 4: the opposition party that really doesn't know what it believes

650
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 4: when it comes to Maybe it's most exciting in terms

651
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 4: of like public interest, new voice in a long time,

652
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 4: with its you know, huge support that brushes away you know,

653
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 4: all these Democrats that room figures a party that can't

654
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 4: figure out what to do with this. This is why people,

655
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 4: you know, continue to wonder, people like me who watch

656
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 4: this stuff. You know, I'm not going to round here

657
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 4: and say, hey, Democrats are going to do great. Democrats

658
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 4: are in a great position here because Democrats don't kind

659
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 4: of like really know what position they're in, Like you.

660
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: Don't know who you're really talking to alf the time?

661
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 2: Is that sure?

662
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 4: But I think what this is, I think this is

663
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 4: sort of what this whole moment is really about. Is

664
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 4: that the fact is Trump is come giving them all

665
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 4: their rope that they need. But the question is do

666
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,479
Speaker 4: Democrats know which way to tug on it if they

667
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 4: want it? You know, is it okay to touch with

668
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 4: get It's like, is it is this rope like you're

669
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 4: ethically sourced enough or is it is rope to like

670
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 4: go or like what do we get? Like the whole

671
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 4: thing is just kind of like this party is still

672
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 4: in this incredible amount of internal tumult despite the fact

673
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 4: that like their they're leading, enemy is in charge and

674
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 4: the clearing war on you know, Blue Cities, and it's

675
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 4: a very it's a very strange moment to see. I mean,

676
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 4: you know, you're abundant. It's your job is to tell

677
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 4: us why that's happening. I can tell you that it

678
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 4: is happening, and I don't understand what to say about

679
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 4: it to you perfectly are.

680
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: And now we're at a time.

681
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: Thank you evan okay.

682
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: Doctor Peter Hotez is the dean of Baylor College of

683
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: Medicines National School of Tropical Medicine.

684
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 5: Michael E.

685
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: Mann is the director of the Center for Science, Sustainability

686
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,719
Speaker 1: and the Media at the University of Pennsylvania, and they

687
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: both are the authors of Science under Siege. How to

688
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: Fight the Five Most Powerful Forces that threat in Our World.

689
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: Don't your hots tell me why you guys are here today.

690
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 5: We're here, Mollie with my great colleague and friend Michael Mann.

691
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 5: First of all, it's great to see you again. It's

692
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 5: it's it's been too long. And you know, I learned

693
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 5: so much from you being on MSNBC and others and

694
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 5: CNN and talking during the pandemic. But I'm here with

695
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 5: Michael Mann, who's Distinguished Climate Scientists at the University of

696
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 5: Pennsylvanian professor, because we've written a new book and it's

697
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 5: called Science under Siege, And what it does is we

698
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 5: came up with this idea and when we started noticing

699
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 5: that there was interesting overlap between the attacks on climate

700
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 5: science with the attacks on biomedical science and realize that

701
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 5: while if you think of them, each of the two

702
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 5: circles of the Venn diagram, they're not entirely overlapping, but

703
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,879
Speaker 5: there's significant overlap, and unfortunately, some of it's coming from

704
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,399
Speaker 5: the same sources. And the anti science world has gone

705
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 5: beyond vaccines and climates even climate science to create an

706
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 5: entire ecosystem. And it doesn't just attack the science. It's

707
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 5: attacking the scientists and portraying us as public enemies or

708
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 5: cartoon villains, and so it's become very dark. And the

709
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 5: reason that you'll hear today that we're so passionate about

710
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 5: this topic and why it's so important it's starting to

711
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 5: affect human life. People are dying, literally dying because of

712
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 5: anti science activism, antiscience aggression, and that's why we have

713
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 5: to talk about it.

714
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, Michael, if you would talk about how you know,

715
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: I had always am married to an academic, and we

716
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 1: had always had this thesis that when the climate change

717
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: got bad enough, people would be like, oh my god,

718
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: this is what's happening. But in fact, it's almost as

719
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: if the opposite has happened. So I'd love you to

720
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: talk about that climate piece of it.

721
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, thanks, Molly. First of all, it's great to finally

722
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 6: meet and to be with you here, and of course

723
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 6: to be with my good friend Peter. And as he mentioned,

724
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 6: you know, this sort of came together because we both

725
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 6: found ourselves under attack. Me some time ago. Really the

726
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 6: climate wars began decades ago, and so as I watched

727
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 6: similar attacks that had very much, you know, the same feel.

728
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 6: It was some of some of the same actors who

729
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 6: are involved, the some of the same tactics, the same funders,

730
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,439
Speaker 6: the same sort of right wing uh you know, dark

731
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 6: money organizations and conservative politicians. As I watched that on fold,

732
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 6: I reached out to Peter, it's like, you know, what's

733
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 6: happened to you, guys, is what's happened to us, and

734
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 6: we should really compare notes, and we became good friends.

735
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 6: We decided that it was really time to write a

736
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 6: book that would draw upon our own respective experiences and

737
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 6: the commonality. I mean, it's the same bad actors who

738
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 6: are behind this. They're using a playbook that was written

739
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 6: decades ago.

740
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: I thought that if things got bad enough with climate

741
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 1: that people would notice, just like if things got bad

742
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,439
Speaker 1: enough with COVID and people would be like, oh my god,

743
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: this vaccine saved my life. But that's not what happened

744
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: at all. And I'm wondering if you could talk us

745
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: through this sort of parallel there.

746
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, so it's a great point, And you know, it's

747
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 6: I sort of talk about this in terms of the

748
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 6: Cuyahoga River moment, because back in the nineteen seventies, when

749
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 6: the Cuyahoga River caught on fire, it was a galvanizing moment.

750
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 6: There were a relatively small you know, there were three

751
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 6: television news networks. We all were dealing with the same facts.

752
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 6: We might differ in our opinions, but we could draw

753
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 6: upon a similar universe of facts, and so there was

754
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 6: the possibility that an event like that could galvanize public attention,

755
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 6: it could bring people together across the partisan divide, and

756
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 6: that's what happened. And you know, back then you actually

757
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 6: had Richard Nixon who helped create the EPA. Right, the

758
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 6: very EPA that the Trump administration is trying to dismantle

759
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,280
Speaker 6: or is dismantling, was actually created by a Republican president.

760
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 6: And what's happened is the Republican Party has become so

761
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 6: intimately connected to a small number of plutocrats. And we

762
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 6: talk a lot about those plutocrats in this book and

763
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 6: the influence that they wheel. You know that they are

764
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 6: essentially a wholly owned subsidiary of the fossil fuel industry

765
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 6: and these other conservative interest groups. And if they stray

766
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 6: from that, of course, as we know, they get primaried

767
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 6: out of their congressional seat, what have you. And so

768
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 6: there's this purity test that has been you know, used

769
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 6: now for more than a decade to create the version

770
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 6: of the Republican Party that we're dealing with today, to

771
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 6: create the administration we're dealing with today, where no amount

772
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 6: of facts, no amount of public opinion doesn't matter. They

773
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 6: have their agenda. They feel like you know, they are

774
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 6: immune to criticism, is what we're watching right now, and

775
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 6: there's nothing to hold them back. And it doesn't matter

776
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 6: how bad it gets for the rest of us, as

777
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 6: long as it gets better for them, as long as

778
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 6: a small number of plutocrats and oligarchs do better make

779
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 6: more money, they don't care what happens to the rest

780
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 6: of us. And right now, the institutions that are supposed

781
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 6: to exist to help make them answerable to the rest

782
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 6: of us, as you know, Molly, they're failing.

783
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know, and for me, the watershed moment was,

784
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 5: and we've spoken about this before, Molly, during the delta

785
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 5: wave of COVID in the last half of twenty twenty one,

786
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 5: after mRNA vaccines were widely available. The estimates are two

787
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 5: hundred thousand Americans perish died because they refused COVID vaccines,

788
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 5: because they were victims of this organized, fi well financed,

789
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 5: politically motivated health disinformation campaign. And that's for me, the

790
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 5: real moment, when you know, these are not small numbers

791
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 5: of people dying. Two hundred thousand Americans died because they

792
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,919
Speaker 5: were targeted victims of this anti science empire and that's

793
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 5: why we need to speak out about it.

794
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's exactly right, deadly right, And the climate crisis

795
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 6: is deadly. Fossil fuel pollution is deadly. Twenty five percent

796
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 6: of all debts, by some estimates, are related to fossil

797
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 6: fuel emissions or the climate change and the extreme weather

798
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 6: events that result from it. So yeah, we're literally watching

799
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 6: people die now because we're failing to listen to what

800
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 6: science has to say.

801
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 5: So the thirty, the big picture of the book is,

802
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 5: you know, we always think of two of the most

803
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 5: existential threats to humankind are our pandemics and illness and

804
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 5: climate change, the climate crisis, and now we say it's

805
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 5: actually there's a third leg to that tripod, and that

806
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 5: is the massive anti science campaign and health and science

807
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 5: disinformation empire that now prevents us from addressing it, and

808
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 5: which will only ensure that this will continue to accelerate.

809
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 5: And of course we're seeing this play out right now.

810
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: So doctor who does maybe you talk about the measles

811
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: for a minute, about what's happening with the measles right now?

812
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it was you know, it was predicted. So

813
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 5: we've this year, we've had a massive measles epidemic that

814
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 5: started in West Texas and then moved up into the

815
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 5: Panhandle and across the borders into New Mexico and then

816
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 5: ultimately Oklahoma and Kansas and possibly Colorado. So a four

817
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 5: or five state measles epidemic that landed one hundred kids

818
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 5: in the hospital and two needless deaths among otherwise healthy

819
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 5: school age kids whose parents made that decision not to vaccinate.

820
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 5: And you might say, well, why did it start there?

821
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 5: And the answer is this started in the same place

822
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 5: where COVID vaccinations were really low, in the rural conservative

823
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 5: areas of the country that are tuning into Fox News

824
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 5: every night and Joe Rogan podcast and all of this,

825
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 5: and so it was a spillover effect of the decline

826
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 5: in COVID vaccinations occurred in the same part of the country.

827
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: I also wonder I read really good reporting about this

828
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: in pro Pablica that these the family, the mother of

829
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: one of the children who died, was making a case

830
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: that it's not that dead lay because her other kids survived.

831
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: And I wondered, if you could just talk about that.

832
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: That seems like the kind of thinking we're up against.

833
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 5: You know, this is part of the anti vaccine playbook

834
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 5: is to downplay the severity of the illness, just like

835
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 5: they downplayed the severity of COVID. They said it was

836
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 5: a it was a cold and lied about the populations

837
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,720
Speaker 5: that are at risk and the importance of long COVID.

838
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,919
Speaker 5: Same thing with measles. I mean, and this is where

839
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,720
Speaker 5: RFK Junior or a Health and Human Services secretary, really

840
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 5: showed his true colors. So when he should have been

841
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 5: out there encouraging people in the endemic areas to vaccinate,

842
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 5: what was he saying. He was saying the hospitalizations weren't

843
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 5: because the kids were sick, it was because they were

844
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 5: being quarantined or isolated.

845
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:52,919
Speaker 2: That wasn't true.

846
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 5: He was saying the measles vaccine is a leaky vaccine

847
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 5: or doesn't stand well to immunizations, which declines it not true.

848
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 5: And he quoted false numbers that that seemed to come

849
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 5: out of nowhere or and then this is, you know,

850
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 5: something else that we talk about in the book, how

851
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 5: with Kennedy's rhetoric that he's been, you know, pushing anti

852
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 5: vaccine sentiments and for decades now he's changed a little

853
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 5: bit and he's adopted some of the health, wellness and

854
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 5: influencerer industry, So you know which buys up what they

855
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 5: can in bulk and then they jack up the price

856
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 5: by repackaging it and selling it a telehealth visits. So

857
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 5: what does Kennedy come out and say, Well, you can

858
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 5: either get the measles mompster bella vaccine or you can

859
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 5: get this useless cocktail of supplements of vitamin am be,

860
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 5: deciniede and clorythrumycin and cot live royal. Where does that

861
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 5: come from? It comes from the from the very corrupt

862
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 5: health and wellness and influencer industry. So it's interesting in

863
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 5: that he's sort of changed the nature of his rhetoric

864
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 5: in order to adapt become more acront as well.

865
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 6: And Mollie, I think if I can, if I may,

866
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 6: what you're sort of getting at, right, is that this

867
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 6: used to be the ultimate restoring force. Right that when

868
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 6: you are directly impacted your loved ones, your uh you know,

869
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 6: your home, uh. When you feel the impacts directly, then

870
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 6: you go to the ballot the ballot box, and you

871
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,879
Speaker 6: and you defend your interest by voting for politicians who

872
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 6: will who will defend him. And it seems like that's

873
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:33,320
Speaker 6: failing right now, because people who have literally lost loved

874
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 6: ones to you know, to the anti vaxx movement are

875
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 6: in denial when leaders of their movement die from you know,

876
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,720
Speaker 6: COVID nineteen right, like, yeah.

877
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: Like the guy from Turning Point US, Yeah, exactly, or

878
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: who's a diamond of diamond and silk.

879
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, many of them. He was a presidential candidate and

880
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 6: African American presidential.

881
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, the harmon Kin nine nine nine nine, yeah, yeah,

882
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 7: and he was here's the Here's the thing that's so

883
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 7: distressing and and sort of morbidly ironic was that he

884
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 7: was actually still tweeting anti vax rhetoric from beyond the

885
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 7: crypt the account, his account was still promoting.

886
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 6: So in the same thing with climate, right the floods

887
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 6: in the southeastern US from Hurricane Helene, you know, you

888
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 6: had people who were literally you know, falling victim to

889
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 6: conspiracy theories that people who are coming, you know, government

890
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 6: officials who were coming to their defense were actually there

891
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 6: to steal their stuff. And and and they're in denial

892
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 6: of the impact that climate change is having on these

893
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 6: extreme weather events. They're literally destroying their homes, whether it's floods,

894
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 6: whether it's wildfires, whether it's coastal storms. And so we've

895
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 6: reached the point where we're witnessing the devastating consequences of

896
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 6: pandemics in the climate crisis. And as Peter said, this

897
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 6: third leg of the stool disinformation makes it impossible for

898
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 6: us to have a good faith conversation about the linkage

899
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 6: between you know, what the science says and what people

900
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 6: are now dealing with.

901
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, and so there's no autocorrection, there's no feedback loops.

902
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 5: It just keeps on accelerating. And what they're doing is

903
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 5: and we're seeing this with podcasters and the five groups

904
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 5: of individual five groups that we talk about. Instead of

905
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 5: having the auto correction, they instead double down and they

906
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 5: reinvent what's causing the problem. And of course they have

907
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 5: enormous bad and width and money and power.

908
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: Michael, one of the things I've been really deeply weirded

909
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: out by is Elon Musk comes to Fame on a

910
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 1: lunch on solar and evs and just explain to me

911
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: how that happens, because that seems baffline.

912
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 6: No, it is, you know, and and and only we

913
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 6: have to you know, turn to fiction to really, I mean,

914
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 6: because it's sort of a classic Bond villain arc. Right,

915
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 6: there's no other way to describe what we've seen with

916
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 6: Elon Musk, where he was this hero of sort of

917
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 6: clean energy movement, and then something happened, something snapped. What

918
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 6: happened It is like literally like you know the narratives

919
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 6: you sometimes find in Bond films, where you know, something

920
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 6: happened to him that turned him and and and and

921
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 6: it became basically perhaps the most powerful agent for the

922
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 6: promotion of anti science, even anti science that goes against

923
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 6: his own interests, right, because you know, I mean Tesla

924
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 6: and uh it was you know, the the the battery,

925
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 6: whatever his battery. You know, he was selling these mega

926
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 6: batteries or whatever they were. He was sort of heavily

927
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 6: invested in clean energy technology and and yet allowed, not

928
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 6: not only allowed, made Twitter an outlet for the promotion

929
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 6: of anti science, gave free reign to the bad actors.

930
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 6: We talk about Petro states like Saudi Arabia and Russia

931
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 6: that have carte blanche to promote their misinformation now on

932
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 6: his medium.

933
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 1: Right, So, what what do you think to play here

934
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: is just he's more racist than he is something else.

935
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 5: I mean it just so it's it's just it's mind boggling, right.

936
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 5: I Mean, here's someone ordinarily I would admire. He's here

937
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 5: in Texas like I am. He's created star bas you know,

938
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 5: and I like to think of Texas as a state

939
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 5: of innovation and science and technology, and he's you know,

940
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 5: he's been out in front on that. And all of

941
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 5: a sudden, you know, he's a tacking me for not

942
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 5: debating Robert F. Kennedy Junior on the Joe Rogan Show.

943
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 5: And I'm just shocked by it all, trying to understand it.

944
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 5: And and you, I think you helped me explain it, Molly,

945
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:53,879
Speaker 5: that you know, they were propping him up to run

946
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,320
Speaker 5: for president, needed people like me to debate him. But

947
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 5: that's so that's how dark it's going in Interestingly, when

948
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 5: you talk about Elon, he's one of the five p's

949
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 5: that we talk about in the book. We identify part

950
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 5: five categories in the in the first one of the

951
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 5: plutocrats and and and of course Elon Musk is the

952
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 5: quintessential plutocrat involved in He satisfied several the definitions of

953
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:18,240
Speaker 5: several categories.

954
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 2: He's a plutocrat.

955
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 6: He's in some sense the press because with Twitter or

956
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 6: x he has this, you know, more influence than any

957
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 6: media outlet, his social media outlet, and he is a propagandist, right.

958
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 5: What's interesting is his his new AI program Groc. You know,

959
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 5: people were going after me about this and then and

960
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 5: Groc was became my best friend on X started defending

961
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 5: me because you know, he was just saying, no, that's

962
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 5: not what doctor Owad does is and but now that's

963
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 5: changed too. He's I think he's doing some fine tone.

964
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 6: When Grock isn't going down a Nazi uh you know,

965
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,839
Speaker 6: rabbit hole, he sometimes actually.

966
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 1: So let's talk through what I mean. This is all

967
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: so deep upsetting on science, climate and just my nightmare fuel.

968
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: So what is the solve here?

969
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know we wish you know, we we we

970
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 6: really did wish we had a simple answer.

971
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: You know.

972
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,760
Speaker 6: Maybe it's you know, as you pick up your puppy,

973
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 6: you maybe it's turning over our planet to you know,

974
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 6: to puppies, puppies, other sentient organisms too. I mean, because

975
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 6: we've screwed it up so much. And you know it's

976
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 6: our values, right, I mean the value system right now

977
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 6: in the United States that incentivizes a candidate like Donald Trump.

978
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,280
Speaker 6: You know, it's people voting against their interest in every

979
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:50,760
Speaker 6: possible sense, and the very notion of democracy, the functioning

980
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 6: of democracy, demands that people vote in some way in

981
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 6: their own interest. And when they don't, when they can

982
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 6: be conned into voting diametrically, you know, in a way

983
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 6: that's diametrically opposed to the interests, you get the situation

984
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 6: that we have. What's the solution to it? I mean,

985
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 6: there is no simple fix. Right, We've got to we've

986
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 6: got to reclaim our politics. Right and in the end,

987
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 6: you know, people ask, well, you know, what can I do?

988
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 6: Can I if I recycle? You know, if I don't

989
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 6: drive as much? What are the behavior The most important

990
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:28,280
Speaker 6: behavior agent is to be part of a collective action

991
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 6: that restores you know, that the votes in politicians who

992
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 6: will do our bidding rather than the bidding of the

993
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 6: plutocrats who have installed them. And I still, I think

994
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 6: we still have some faith, if you want to call it, that,

995
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 6: that that there is some resolve left in the electorate

996
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 6: that we will see consequences in this midterm election for

997
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 6: the unprecedented assault on our democracy, on science and everything

998
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 6: else that's playing out literally in real time. You know,

999
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 6: by the time we get off this call. There'll be

1000
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 6: some new development, some new awful headline, and we frame

1001
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 6: it in the end Peter and I I convinced Peter

1002
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 6: that this into this framing. I guess there's a token

1003
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 6: esque feel to this moment, and it's about, you know,

1004
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 6: there's this moment in the Lord of the Rings. The

1005
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 6: line is there's some good in the world and it's

1006
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 6: worth fighting for. Right and there's still some good in

1007
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 6: the world and it's worth fighting for even though no

1008
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 6: White wizard will come to our defense. That's not going

1009
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 6: to happen. We fight on because we.

1010
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 2: Have no choice. This is literally a battle to preserve.

1011
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 6: The planet as we know it, humanity as we know it,

1012
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,439
Speaker 6: and we must do everything we can to push back

1013
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 6: against the anti science, against the fascism, and all of

1014
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 6: these strains that have now come together to create this

1015
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 6: very dangerous pivotal moment in American politics and perhaps when

1016
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 6: it comes to the fate of the world writ large.

1017
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, and in the meantime, I think there are some

1018
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 5: more straightforward things that can make a difference. I mean,

1019
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 5: one of the five piece, you know, the five pleas

1020
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 5: are the plutocrats, the petrostates, the pros, the propagandas and

1021
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 5: the press and the press. Of course, we talk a

1022
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 5: lot about the Murdoch Press and Fox News and the

1023
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 5: damage of newscorps and and and detail that, but you know,

1024
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 5: we also have to talk about some of the mainstream newspapers.

1025
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 5: Even the New York Times and the Washington Post did

1026
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 5: a lot of false equivalency and felt the need to

1027
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 5: voice very strong pseudoscience or anti science opinions and kind

1028
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 5: of create that form them, equivalent, platform them, and give

1029
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 5: this false equivalency. That did almost as much damage as

1030
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 5: as the Murdoch Press because it caused people that we

1031
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,760
Speaker 5: really care about to think twice about what the scientists

1032
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:50,800
Speaker 5: are saying. That should be something easy to walk back from.

1033
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 6: But so far performative neutrality, and it's as much a

1034
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,240
Speaker 6: threat as sort of the right wing noise machine.

1035
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 2: Now.

1036
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 5: I think another is, you know, as scienceists too, we

1037
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 5: need to be more out in the public domain. We

1038
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 5: quote a study that's done by a policy group in Washington,

1039
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 5: DC called Research America, and they do these surveys pretty routinely,

1040
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 5: and they ask the American people, can you name a

1041
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 5: living scientist? And it turns out the numbers are always

1042
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,399
Speaker 5: about the same seventy five percent of Americans cannot name

1043
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 5: a living scientist.

1044
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 6: And those our good friend Bill ni most likely right right,

1045
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 6: that's but so there's no so that's and that's partly

1046
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,240
Speaker 6: a consequence of our research universities and academic health centers

1047
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 6: discouraging scientists from being out in the public domain because

1048
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 6: they want to all the flow of information.

1049
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 5: They worry about the impact on the brand and we

1050
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,799
Speaker 5: so that makes it easier for them to the bad

1051
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 5: actors to portray us as sort of shadowy figures wearing

1052
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 5: white coats, plotting the various things and.

1053
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 6: And are called scientists. Be brave, you know, the stakes

1054
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 6: are too great for us to not be on the

1055
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 6: front lines now fighting back against misinformation and disinformation. As

1056
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 6: speakers of each chapter we have you know, there we

1057
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 6: end with a discussion of some of the very specific

1058
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 6: things that we can try to do to deal with this, uh,

1059
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 6: you know, this this existential challenge. But sort of in

1060
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,839
Speaker 6: the final chapter we take a step back and look

1061
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 6: at the big picture. In the big pictures, we we've

1062
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:26,240
Speaker 6: got to reclaim our our politics, because if we don't,

1063
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 6: there's simply no way to fight back.

1064
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,839
Speaker 2: This tide of of of ideologically and UH.

1065
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:36,800
Speaker 6: And and and and and and financially motivated UH, anti science,

1066
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 6: misinformation and disinformation.

1067
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,439
Speaker 5: And we're starting now to see a globalize as well.

1068
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 5: So you know, you're seeing it with the alternative for

1069
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 5: Deutsche Lamparty in Germany. You're seeing bits and pieces show

1070
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 5: up in France, and even in low and middle income

1071
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,720
Speaker 5: countries which have been pretty good about holding the line

1072
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 5: from anti vaccine sentiment. I do a lot of work

1073
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 5: in Latin American countries. Now that's starting to falter as well.

1074
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 5: So what's going on in you know, you know the

1075
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,800
Speaker 5: US is good at exporting its stuff, right, we export

1076
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 5: our movies, our music, and now we're exporting this stuff

1077
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 5: and it's that is really very troubling.

1078
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,359
Speaker 1: Itter Michael, thank you so much for joining us.

1079
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 6: Oh, thank you, it was it was a pleasure.

1080
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:19,760
Speaker 2: It went by too quickly, really.

1081
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 5: Absolutely night gave you, gave me a great name, fuel,

1082
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,919
Speaker 5: We give you a great voice during the pandemic, Molly,

1083
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 5: and I'm always grateful for that and.

1084
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 2: Thanks for all you do. Thank you for.

1085
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 7: No mo.

1086
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 1: Jesse Cannon Smiley.

1087
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:40,800
Speaker 3: I have this thing all the time that I forget

1088
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 3: about a lot of the politicians we deal since we

1089
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:44,760
Speaker 3: have to keep track of, like, you know, seven hundred

1090
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 3: different people. Missouri Senator Eric Schmid is one I often

1091
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 3: forget about, and then when I'm reminded of him, it's

1092
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,720
Speaker 3: usually very bad, As is the case here we're Sleep

1093
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 3: magazine or Sleep website, whatever we call it these days reports.

1094
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 3: He said, what is in them? It is a white person.

1095
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 3: America is a white homeland.

1096
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is this whole performative white supremacy which the

1097
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 1: right is obsessed with. Where who can be a bigger racist?

1098
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 1: I mean, the white homeland. It's like a line right

1099
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: out of Christian nationalism, the white homeland. It's also it's

1100
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 1: not true, right, the whole country was set up for

1101
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 1: people who came in, killed all the Native Americans, not

1102
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 1: all of them, but many of them. It's not a

1103
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: white homeland. It's not Denmark or something. But you know,

1104
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 1: this is what it takes to make it in Maga

1105
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: right now, and that's where we are. That's it for

1106
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 1: this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday,

1107
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 1: Thursday and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics

1108
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 1: make sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast,

1109
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

1110
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.