Speaker 1: I've got a very special episode to share with you today,
Speaker 1: and it's part of a series we're releasing called Something
Speaker 1: to Normalize. One of the reasons I've always loved the
Speaker 1: Wolf Parable is because it normalizes being human and having
Speaker 1: difficult emotions. These podcast episodes feature my partner Ginny, talking
Speaker 1: with her friend and previous guest of the show, Brandy Lust.
Speaker 1: In these unguarded conversations, they'll be sharing their lives and
Speaker 1: perspectives as women, alongside insights from experts, researchers, and writers
Speaker 1: on topics that are hard to talk about. We tend
Speaker 1: to keep these things to ourselves, though, and when we do,
Speaker 1: it can breed a sense of being the only one,
Speaker 1: feelings of shame, or evidence we're somehow doing life wrong.
Speaker 1: Brandy and Ginny hope that by giving voice to experiences, feelings,
Speaker 1: and thoughts we often keep to ourselves, we can create
Speaker 1: a community with less shame and a deeper sense of belonging.
Speaker 1: I am so happy to share their voices with you.
Speaker 1: I think you'll find these episodes a wonderfully nourishing and
Speaker 1: supportive addition to the regular scheduled When you feed podcast episodes,
Speaker 1: you are used to hearing here and now I'm proud
Speaker 1: to present to you Something to Normalize.
Speaker 2: Can you believe this is finally happening?
Speaker 3: I know it feels like it's been so many months
Speaker 3: in the planning.
Speaker 2: It has, and I kind of can't believe how many
Speaker 2: like atomic bombs have gone off in each of our
Speaker 2: lives as the reason for this did not happen when
Speaker 2: we thought it was going to happen.
Speaker 3: I know you're absolutely right as far as that goes.
Speaker 3: And then I think with each of those moments that
Speaker 3: we were having a crisis, the evolution of this idea
Speaker 3: and topic has just continued to come to fruition in
Speaker 3: the way that it's landed today.
Speaker 4: So I'm excited to be here. I mean this with you,
Speaker 4: Jinny be too, Randy.
Speaker 2: Maybe with that we should say welcome, right, So welcome
Speaker 2: everybody to the very first episode of our podcast, Something
Speaker 2: to Normalize. So I'm Jinny Gay and I'm a certified
Speaker 2: mindfulness and meditation teacher. I help people become more aware
Speaker 2: of and work skillfully with their thoughts, their emotions, their
Speaker 2: experiences so that they feel less stress and struggle and
Speaker 2: more freedom and joy and ease. Yeah, So what about you, Brandy?
Speaker 2: I am a speaker and consultant two's worked for myself
Speaker 2: for the last eight years and primarily worked with organizations
Speaker 2: and nonprofit and businesses and a lot of schools to
Speaker 2: really focus on how to build cultures of well being
Speaker 2: and think about well being as more of a collective
Speaker 2: enterprise as opposed to individual activities. So, yeah, I wonder
Speaker 2: if it makes sense to touch on like why we
Speaker 2: even thought of doing this in the first place, before
Speaker 2: we dive into like what does it mean to normalize something?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I can start by just talking about
Speaker 3: the moment that I think, God, yeah, yeah, and yeah.
Speaker 4: So we were meeting.
Speaker 3: For a walk next to a river that goes through
Speaker 3: the city that we both live in, and we had
Speaker 3: only briefly met through Eric, and I was excited to
Speaker 3: meet you, and it just so happened you were talking
Speaker 3: with those atomic bombs that like go off in our lives,
Speaker 3: and one had just happened to me, like right before
Speaker 3: we'd met. And so I think we just dropped into
Speaker 3: this really vulnerable place very very quickly, and.
Speaker 4: Both felt really connected to each other.
Speaker 3: And I felt like you understood something in that moment
Speaker 3: that helped me to feel less alone, and I feel
Speaker 3: like that depth of connection and that depth of vulnerability
Speaker 3: has really sustained itself over the course of us knowing
Speaker 3: one another. And we almost immediately started talking about doing
Speaker 3: something together. And this idea, I think was one of
Speaker 3: a couple of iterations and it's the one that really
Speaker 3: landed inside of us. And throughout all of the last
Speaker 3: few months of different life experiences coming into play, we
Speaker 3: would sort of revisit and think about timing, and now
Speaker 3: on this day, it's arrived.
Speaker 2: Here, we are, here, we are so we are friends,
Speaker 2: and we were fast friends, Like you're right, Circumstances just
Speaker 2: sort of opened both of us up and we connected
Speaker 2: and what a gift and treasure that felt, like I
Speaker 2: know we've talked about for both of us, like this
Speaker 2: just doesn't happen so often in life, especially the older
Speaker 2: you get, I feel like sometimes that's a little less common.
Speaker 2: So I remember when we were on the phone one
Speaker 2: day and you were like, I know what we need
Speaker 2: to do. You were like, we need to do a podcast,
Speaker 2: And it made perfect sense to me for so many reasons,
Speaker 2: but most of which like neither one of us have
Speaker 2: a problem a talking be talking to each other or
Speaker 2: see being like kind of constantly curious about ourselves and life,
Speaker 2: so like, yes, yes we absolutely should. So here we
Speaker 2: are okay, And normalizing things is kind of the place
Speaker 2: we thought we might start because it's such a powerful
Speaker 2: phenomenon to normalize something for somebody. So maybe now it
Speaker 2: makes sense to sort of dive into that a little
Speaker 2: bit about what exactly do we mean when we say
Speaker 2: something to normalize or normalizing something. I mean, we can
Speaker 2: look at it from a couple of different angles. I mean,
Speaker 2: maybe just to start with our home base, like what
Speaker 2: we mean when we say normalize, we talk about really
Speaker 2: just naming an experience or a situation, right and acknowledging
Speaker 2: it as real. And that's really so much of the
Speaker 2: power of naming something is saying like, this is a
Speaker 2: real thing, and also then to accept it as just
Speaker 2: another part of our human experience, right, rather than evidence
Speaker 2: that we are bad or we're doing life wrong, or
Speaker 2: we're the only ones that have ever had this experience
Speaker 2: or situation or thought or whatever. You know, that could
Speaker 2: be so isolating and so shame inducing when we don't
Speaker 2: normalize things that are pretty darn human. And you and I,
Speaker 2: Brandy kind of came around to like, that's what we mean,
Speaker 2: but what do others mean?
Speaker 3: Yeah, just to build on what you said before, I
Speaker 3: talk about some of the definitions and history of this
Speaker 3: term normalizing. I just wanted to mention that I think
Speaker 3: at the root of the work that I do professionally,
Speaker 3: but then also at the center of so many of
Speaker 3: our conversations is the idea of a common humanity intervention
Speaker 3: and that concept of having the moment where we look
Speaker 3: around and see that we're not the only one, and
Speaker 3: how incredibly healing that can be, and that so oftentimes
Speaker 3: when we're experiencing that sense of shame or that sense
Speaker 3: of alienation, it just takes one conversation of someone saying,
Speaker 3: I understand I've been through something similar, and that conversation
Speaker 3: can really open us up to accepting parts of ourselves
Speaker 3: that previously felt like they had no place in the
Speaker 3: world or even inside of ourselves. And so, yeah, I
Speaker 3: think that you and I have this common understanding of
Speaker 3: the word. But I thought it was really interesting when
Speaker 3: I looked up the dictionary definition of this word. There
Speaker 3: are a number of different ways of interpreting this, and
Speaker 3: the first primary definition is to make something conform to
Speaker 3: or reduce something to a norm or standard. So I
Speaker 3: think that's really interesting because for me, what I hear
Speaker 3: when I read that definition is like something getting small
Speaker 3: or like forcing something into a box, like this is
Speaker 3: where it fits. So is there anything else that comes
Speaker 3: up for you around that first definition?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that I don't like that.
Speaker 5: I don't like that because to me, normalizing is like
Speaker 5: expansive and like expanding out into connection as opposed to
Speaker 5: like being authentic and like let our experience be what
Speaker 5: it is rather than try to fit it into something.
Speaker 2: Eh, And I like it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So that's the first definition.
Speaker 3: The second definition is to bring or restore to a
Speaker 3: normal condition. And so I love the word restore and
Speaker 3: this because I think there's something about again, like bringing
Speaker 3: in parts of ourselves, parts of other people into belonging
Speaker 3: or acceptance that's really important.
Speaker 4: Then we have this term normal.
Speaker 3: Condition, and I feel like that is so confusing. So
Speaker 3: we'll talk more about what normal actually means. But I'll
Speaker 3: pad there and see if you have any responses to this.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, normal is like a loaded word, right because
Speaker 2: it bears some unpacking and also like clarifying based on
Speaker 2: how you intend that word to be sent. Out of
Speaker 2: your mouth. But I might look at that definition and go,
Speaker 2: you know, restoring it to a normal condition can feel
Speaker 2: healing if the word normal refers to something that is
Speaker 2: very often experienced by human beings because they are human beings,
Speaker 2: you know, just a very human experience, right, So that
Speaker 2: can feel healing. And that's how I'm going to choose
Speaker 2: to hear that, because another interpretation might not.
Speaker 4: But what do you think?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I love what you just said, and what
Speaker 3: it made me think of is replacing the word normal
Speaker 3: with the word wholeness or normal condition with the word wholeness.
Speaker 3: So to bring or restore to wholeness I think has
Speaker 3: more of a resonance for me.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 3: If I were to rephrase that for our own purposes,
Speaker 3: love it. And then the last definition is to allow
Speaker 3: or encourage something considered extreme or taboo to be viewed
Speaker 3: as normal.
Speaker 2: We did not make that up, was that addiction definition?
Speaker 3: This is a dictionary definition to allow or encourage something
Speaker 3: considered extreme or taboo to become viewed as normal.
Speaker 2: I kind of like that one. How does that one
Speaker 2: land on you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know it's so interesting. I think the
Speaker 3: word extreme doesn't completely land for me, and there's such
Speaker 3: a depth and a threat to human experience that I
Speaker 3: think that viewing something as extreme doesn't always completely fit.
Speaker 3: But I do think that this fits most with the
Speaker 3: ways that we've been talking about normalizing, which is to
Speaker 3: take something that maybe doesn't completely fit into our mold
Speaker 3: of how we talk to one another. I should say
Speaker 3: something that doesn't completely fit into the ways that we
Speaker 3: accept or don't accept things in society, and then you know,
Speaker 3: allowing space for those things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's occurred to me. Is initially the
Speaker 2: way I heard that, I read that was to allow
Speaker 2: or encourage something E as an individual might consider extreme
Speaker 2: about myself or taboo about myself to become viewed by
Speaker 2: myself and great if you know, also by others as normal,
Speaker 2: you know, or yeah, so maybe less about what others
Speaker 2: think and more about what I'm secretly thinking about myself
Speaker 2: that this is too extreme, I don't really know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that. I love that.
Speaker 3: As a reframing, those are the dictionary definitions of this
Speaker 3: word normalized. We've talked about what we mean by this term.
Speaker 3: I also want to talk about normalizing as a process,
Speaker 3: and this was really interesting to me. So there are
Speaker 3: a couple of researchers, Adam Beher and Joshua Nobe, and
Speaker 3: they talk about normalizing as a process that is part
Speaker 3: descriptive and part descriptive. So I'll say that again, normalizing
Speaker 3: is part prescriptive and part descriptive. So the prescriptive part
Speaker 3: is really.
Speaker 4: About what our ideals are.
Speaker 3: So it's really about saying, this is the ideal of
Speaker 3: this thing, or this is the perfect version of this thing.
Speaker 3: So an example that they gave is the ideal version
Speaker 3: of a grandma, and anyone who has a daughter or
Speaker 3: son who has a child is technically a grandma. However,
Speaker 3: when we think of what a grandma is ideally quote
Speaker 3: unquote in our societ, you know, it's a friendly, warm,
Speaker 3: cookie baking, older woman with gray hair who really has
Speaker 3: a lot of wisdom for us. And there are all
Speaker 3: of these connotations of that. And so that's the prescriptive aspect,
Speaker 3: and then the other aspect is descriptive. So it's really
Speaker 3: looking at what is the average of this particular thing,
Speaker 3: what is it that most people think or feel or
Speaker 3: experience about this thing. And so what we don't realize
Speaker 3: is that when we're talking about normalizing without even being
Speaker 3: cognizant of it. What we're doing is we're taking the
Speaker 3: prescriptive and the descriptive and we're kind of smushing them together,
Speaker 3: and that's how we come up with what feels quote
Speaker 3: unquote normal to us. And so I thought that was
Speaker 3: incredibly fascinating because then we can begin to think about
Speaker 3: what are the ideals in our society that we uphold,
Speaker 3: and then also thinking about what do we assume as
Speaker 3: the average, And sometimes the assumptions that we're making aren't
Speaker 3: necessary rely the truth or the actual averages don't reflect
Speaker 3: what we think should be happening. And so those are
Speaker 3: some really interesting circumstances. And an example that they gave
Speaker 3: of that is the average number of hours that people
Speaker 3: watch television, and so they asked, what do you think
Speaker 3: is normal a normal amount of television to watch? And people,
Speaker 3: for that particular question leaned more toward less television than
Speaker 3: what was average because they saw that as the ideal.
Speaker 3: And so there are lots of ways that these concepts
Speaker 3: interplay with one another.
Speaker 4: So what do you think about that, Jinny.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's so interesting. That last part especially kind of
Speaker 2: hit me because I think it shows how skewed our
Speaker 2: assumptions and projections often are about what an ideal is,
Speaker 2: or what normal is, or what good looks like or
Speaker 2: you know, it's often so convoluted by so many different variables,
Speaker 2: yet it so often can play a role in then
Speaker 2: how we compare ourselves as well, how to do we
Speaker 2: fit or do we not fit? Are we good enough?
Speaker 2: Are we not good enough? And it's all just this
Speaker 2: like fabrication, you know, from a bit of a faulty
Speaker 2: operating system in that regard.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's so interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this really leads into this piece about
Speaker 3: why this is an important concept. And there's a quote
Speaker 3: that I want to share with you, and this quote
Speaker 3: is from an article in The New Yorker. It says,
Speaker 3: what we think of as normal shapes our field of vision.
Speaker 3: It tells a story of the world and its possibilities.
Speaker 2: To let that land for a second. That's huge. I
Speaker 2: think that's so powerful. It tells a story of the
Speaker 2: world and its possibilities, not only the world, but our
Speaker 2: own world, our own internal world. How we experience the
Speaker 2: world and its possibilities, like what is possible, what is permissible,
Speaker 2: what is allowed, and what is shut down. So I
Speaker 2: think that obviously it's a loaded gun, and it can
Speaker 2: be a powerfully good thing to explore, examine, claim you
Speaker 2: discover for yourself and begin to connect and share with
Speaker 2: one another you know what our experiences are. But it
Speaker 2: can also be a really harmful thing, don't you think?
Speaker 4: Yeah? I do.
Speaker 3: It's really interesting because one of the things that I
Speaker 3: read about was that the term normalized gained a huge
Speaker 3: amount of popularity in twenty sixteen, right around twenty sixteen
Speaker 3: during the presidential campaigns, and it was incredibly popular, particularly
Speaker 3: with liberal folks, to talk about what we shouldn't allow
Speaker 3: to be normalized. And so I think that when you
Speaker 3: were talking about how this is such a powerful idea,
Speaker 3: like this quote, that it shapes our field of vision
Speaker 3: and what's possible, what's acceptable, that was a time in
Speaker 3: American history where a lot of norms of what was
Speaker 3: acceptable in public discourse started to be broken, and what
Speaker 3: was acceptable from public leaders really began to change, and
Speaker 3: folks sort of had this I guess mantra of don't
Speaker 3: normalize this, don't make this the new normal for how
Speaker 3: public dialogue operates. And so that's an example of like
Speaker 3: when normalizing something can be really destructive really harmful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because in so doing, you almost desensitize yourself to
Speaker 2: the shock and offense of things that are harmful if
Speaker 2: you give it permission to exist as this common human
Speaker 2: experience that we ought to just sort of allow and
Speaker 2: almost embrace. Right, So some discernment is I think important here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the term desensitized really resonated with me when you
Speaker 3: said that. Like, I think that in our society there
Speaker 3: are a lot of things that we've become very desensitized
Speaker 3: to and we don't even realize the impact that it
Speaker 3: has on us.
Speaker 4: And so I'm thinking about a friend.
Speaker 3: Who really loves and has experienced and had a lot
Speaker 3: of pleasure in listening to true crime podcasts and watching
Speaker 3: true crime shows and really just immersing themselves in this
Speaker 3: world of violence to an agree, and I think so
Speaker 3: many of us do this. And so we had talked
Speaker 3: about monitoring the consumption of just different media and how
Speaker 3: that might be impacting her, particularly because she was struggling
Speaker 3: with some depression and anxiety, and certainly that was not
Speaker 3: at all the only factor by any means, but she
Speaker 3: decided to sort of play around with that a little
Speaker 3: bit and see how it affected her, and we had
Speaker 3: a conversation just the other day. She's been practicing this
Speaker 3: for a couple of months, and she was talking about
Speaker 3: how she had become much more sensitized to violence and
Speaker 3: she had found that now there were things that she
Speaker 3: wasn't able to watch for would have felt like no
Speaker 3: big deal to her, And I thought that was incredibly interesting.
Speaker 3: So sometimes there is this piece about normalizing something where
Speaker 3: we're desensitizing ourselves to things that are really profoundly impactful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, as you're describing like that doesn't surprise me
Speaker 2: at all as I think about it when you're talking
Speaker 2: about your friend. I mean, I just think this whole
Speaker 2: topic requires some care and some checking in with where
Speaker 2: things are coming from as we bring them up to
Speaker 2: talk about through the lens of normalizing. Absolutely what else
Speaker 2: is kind of coming up for me as we're just
Speaker 2: exploring this terrain of like when it can be kind
Speaker 2: of harmful or really harmful. Is sometimes for me the
Speaker 2: fear of either me normalizing something that's in my experience
Speaker 2: that I might feel shame about. Is that shame because
Speaker 2: without me realizing it, like it's something that can be
Speaker 2: harmful to others or myself, Right, Like I don't know that,
Speaker 2: and so am I afraid that I'll get backlash highlighting that,
Speaker 2: which then causes me to anticipate the shame I'll feel,
Speaker 2: which then causes me to not even bring it up
Speaker 2: in the first place. So I think there's a degree
Speaker 2: of like vulnerability that's required, a degree of humility, you know,
Speaker 2: that's required, and giving one another at least in this container,
Speaker 2: we're in the benefit of the doubt and the grace
Speaker 2: to learn where we need to learn, you know, and
Speaker 2: also like love one another in our attempt to grow
Speaker 2: in these directions.
Speaker 3: You know, I love that container setting that you're doing
Speaker 3: right now.
Speaker 4: I absolutely love it.
Speaker 2: Is that what I'm doing I didn't know. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 2: what I.
Speaker 3: Hear you doing is like speaking to us, the two
Speaker 3: of us, but also speaking to the community that we
Speaker 3: want to build and thinking about grace and learn, room
Speaker 3: to make mistakes and to grow together and to know
Speaker 3: that all of that is okay, Yeah, that that's actually welcome.
Speaker 3: And so we can have these conversations and do so
Speaker 3: with kindness, with the recognition that every person is coming
Speaker 3: with a different set of life experiences, a different set
Speaker 3: of skills, and we can meet one another where we are, yeah,
Speaker 3: so that we can grow together. And I think ultimately
Speaker 3: this word is going to come up a lot that
Speaker 3: discernment process of is this thing inside of me something
Speaker 3: that I really need to examine and have some deep
Speaker 3: work around, because the shame is coming from perhaps a
Speaker 3: place of genuine discernment around something being harmful to someone
Speaker 3: else for example, versus you know, the discernment of here's
Speaker 3: a part of myself that I've become to believe I
Speaker 3: should be ashamed of, but really is just a piece
Speaker 3: of myself that needs some love. And maybe there's no
Speaker 3: difference between those two things. Maybe these are all just
Speaker 3: parts of ourselves that need a little bit of love.
Speaker 4: And so I think in.
Speaker 3: This space of creating a container where we can really
Speaker 3: begin to normalize the parts of ourselves that need to
Speaker 3: come to the surface, then maybe don't always get as
Speaker 3: much love and attention because they aren't as pretty. We
Speaker 3: can do that with a sense of hope, and that
Speaker 3: really I think is important because there are this is
Speaker 3: certainly dicey territory and mistakes will be made, but having
Speaker 3: these conversations can actually lead to a different perspective on
Speaker 3: our field division, you know, our field division can change
Speaker 3: when we examine what's normal, right, And so I think
Speaker 3: a really wonderful example of that in our society is
Speaker 3: the incredible expansion of sexuality and gender that we have
Speaker 3: seen over certainly many many years, but especially over the
Speaker 3: last couple of years. And you know, not to say
Speaker 3: that any of these possibilities for self definition are new.
Speaker 3: All of these possibilities for self definition in regards to
Speaker 3: sexuality and gender have always been.
Speaker 4: But this new era.
Speaker 3: Of naming and allowing these identities to be recognized, to
Speaker 3: be accepted, to change our lexicon in ways that are
Speaker 3: more inclusive, to change what's in the media that we
Speaker 3: consume to be more representative. All of that changes happens
Speaker 3: so quickly, and I think that's a really beautiful example
Speaker 3: of something that's been normalized. And it's so hopeful to
Speaker 3: see that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so hopeful. And the last thing I'll say is,
Speaker 2: I think we grow in connection as we restore connection
Speaker 2: within ourselves and as we build connection with one another.
Speaker 2: You know, that's how we grow. So I hope through
Speaker 2: this podcast that I will continue to lean into the
Speaker 2: connection of sharing this with you and the folks that
Speaker 2: are listening. Whatever that experience is that I want to
Speaker 2: share with everybody that I've had. In fact, maybe this
Speaker 2: is a good time to mention that, like, our intention
Speaker 2: with this podcast is to take on more topics than
Speaker 2: just the topic of normalizing. We want to actually apply
Speaker 2: the topic of normalizing two other topics that seem you know,
Speaker 2: relevant and important at least for starters to the two
Speaker 2: of us. Right, So, yeah, grief is one that we're
Speaker 2: going to be diving into, and we're going to be
Speaker 2: sharing a bit from not only our experience with grief personally,
Speaker 2: but also you know, other voices that we think have
Speaker 2: interesting and important things to say on the topic. I mean,
Speaker 2: we have a smattering and we have a list of
Speaker 2: topics we'd like to sort of bring up for discussion.
Speaker 2: But yeah, we're going to start this episode as we
Speaker 2: are already thirty minutes into it, but we're going to
Speaker 2: start through just exploring this topic of normalizing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think now is a really good time
Speaker 3: to transition into our own stories with this topic. You know,
Speaker 3: we can begin to dive into maybe the times when
Speaker 3: we've taken.
Speaker 4: Our risk to say something.
Speaker 3: Out loud, and saying that thing out loud was hard
Speaker 3: and it can have a whole range of of results,
Speaker 3: and so I'd love to.
Speaker 4: Hear from you, Jinny, on an experience that you've had.
Speaker 2: I was just about to say, Brandy, you don't have
Speaker 2: any of those, do you? You have none of those experiences?
Speaker 4: Right?
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Speaker 3: So, Janny, I feel like you will have a lot
Speaker 3: to say about this idea of the risks we take
Speaker 3: when we're trying to normalize something. I feel like something
Speaker 3: you're really passionate about is the experience of shame and
Speaker 3: how it influences us and the ways that it can
Speaker 3: sort of stop us from moving forward. So I'd love
Speaker 3: to hear you talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 2: There are perceived and real risks, right with stepping out
Speaker 2: and being vulnerable and sharing our experiences in hopes of
Speaker 2: connection and better understanding. Right, so, there are certainly inherent risks,
Speaker 2: and we can explore those. I mean, I think I
Speaker 2: might want to back up and say, like, first, there
Speaker 2: are the inherent perceived risks of like embarrassment, which leads
Speaker 2: to this idea of shame and judgment and criticism both
Speaker 2: from others and from ourselves on our inner world, and
Speaker 2: that can just lead us to not speak up and
Speaker 2: things don't get normalized. So there's a risk when we
Speaker 2: don't normalize something or attempt to speak up about something.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think when we don't speak up with
Speaker 2: someone else about what's going on in our inner world.
Speaker 2: Or a world with other people. Is we tend to
Speaker 2: suffer when we think we're the only one who's experienced
Speaker 2: or is experiencing a certain thing. You know, I think
Speaker 2: we can find tremendous healing and freedom in connection and
Speaker 2: community with others. But when we don't speak up, when
Speaker 2: we don't give voice to what's going on inside of us,
Speaker 2: that is the breeding ground of shame. Right, Shame thrives
Speaker 2: on secrecy, It thrives on not being spoken. In fact,
Speaker 2: if you think of something that you are the most
Speaker 2: ashamed of about yourself, you almost can't think about it
Speaker 2: much less ever say it right like. It's the thing
Speaker 2: that can't be spoken. That's how you know it's the
Speaker 2: shamiest thing. So then the antidote to shame is talking
Speaker 2: about it, of course, you know, if it's a very
Speaker 2: vulnerable spot, you know, finding a person you feel safe
Speaker 2: talking about it with, you don't want to just as
Speaker 2: my mother would say, cast your pearls among swine. You know,
Speaker 2: if that's a terrible saying, I guess no, day like,
Speaker 2: it just doesn't sound very politically correct for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: but that's what you would say. But you just want
Speaker 2: to use some discernment with who you talk to. Right,
Speaker 2: But once we speak about our shame, it loses its power.
Speaker 2: The shame begins to melt away. So I think of
Speaker 2: normalizing as the antidote to shame and self hatred. And
Speaker 2: I'm not the only one. So Brene Brown, the Great,
Speaker 2: the brilliant, the beloved Brene Brown says this. She says,
Speaker 2: I define shame as the intensely painful feeling or experience
Speaker 2: of believing we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love
Speaker 2: and belonging. Something we've experienced, done or failed to do
Speaker 2: makes us unworthy of connection. So this terrible lie that
Speaker 2: shame tells us cuts us off from connection and love
Speaker 2: and belonging. And the antidote to it is speaking up right.
Speaker 2: So when we realize that something we've experienced, done, or
Speaker 2: failed to do is not a personal flaw or evidence
Speaker 2: that we're inherently bad or doing life wrong, but rather
Speaker 2: it's a common human experience, you know, shame is lifted, right,
Speaker 2: connection is restored, and we feel more free to grow
Speaker 2: beyond what has previously kept us really small and stuck.
Speaker 2: So that's some of the risk of not taking the
Speaker 2: risk of speaking right. Yeah, But when it comes to
Speaker 2: your experience. Yeah, have there been times when you tried
Speaker 2: to normalize something and maybe it didn't go as planned
Speaker 2: or it didn't go very well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the very beginning of working for myself began
Speaker 3: with this idea of trying to make something normal that
Speaker 3: wasn't normal at the time.
Speaker 4: I want to begin by saying I have never.
Speaker 3: Told this story publicly before because I was embarrassed when
Speaker 3: it happened, because I felt like I really undermined my
Speaker 3: credibility to do the work that I had been doing
Speaker 3: and then continued to do after the circumstance happened. So
Speaker 3: little bit of background. I was a high school English
Speaker 3: teacher for a long time.
Speaker 4: I think it was.
Speaker 3: Something around eight years, and the last couple of years
Speaker 3: that I was in public schools, I transitioned from this
Speaker 3: role of being a classroom teacher to being what's called
Speaker 3: an instructional coach. And essentially what that means is that
Speaker 3: I was kind of a teacher of teachers to some extent,
Speaker 3: like I would provide professional development experiences for teachers another
Speaker 3: way of saying that as learning opportunities, and then I
Speaker 3: would also work with teachers one on one in their
Speaker 3: classroom and help them to implement new strategies and try
Speaker 3: some new things, and they were open to it, I
Speaker 3: may give them some feedback. And this transition happened in
Speaker 3: a time in my life that.
Speaker 4: Was just completely unmooring.
Speaker 3: So the same time that I accepted this new job,
Speaker 3: I started really struggling in my marriage, and we went
Speaker 3: into therapy together, and I was having an emotional affair
Speaker 3: with someone at work. My grandma, who I had been
Speaker 3: close with my entire life and lived with while I
Speaker 3: was in college, started dying of the cancer that she'd
Speaker 3: lived with for over a decade, and during that two
Speaker 3: year time period passed away. So all of these things
Speaker 3: were happening during this two year window, and it became
Speaker 3: very clear that for many reasons, I needed to leave
Speaker 3: my job and go.
Speaker 4: Do something else. So in the process of.
Speaker 3: This, I had reached out to someone that I'd worked
Speaker 3: with in a professional development program at a local university,
Speaker 3: and the program was really for educators who wanted to
Speaker 3: write themselves, and so I asked her to write me
Speaker 3: a letter of recommendation because I was going to go
Speaker 3: to grad school for counseling, and she happily agreed to
Speaker 3: do that, and the reconnection point really facilitated a conversation
Speaker 3: around me becoming part of a project that she was
Speaker 3: working on. And so this project was an extension of
Speaker 3: the program in the university, and we were going to
Speaker 3: write a book for teachers by teachers, just talking about
Speaker 3: the experience of being an educator. So one of the
Speaker 3: things that people who aren't in education may not know
Speaker 3: about education is that it really has this history of
Speaker 3: being restrictive in the ways that you're allowed to share
Speaker 3: personal content. And so if you have ever posted about
Speaker 3: drinking or smoking or any of these things, like literally
Speaker 3: when you apply for a job, if they were to
Speaker 3: find something like that, they would make sure that you
Speaker 3: took it down before you would step foot in a classroom.
Speaker 3: Like that's not an unusual circumstance. There are some teachers
Speaker 3: who don't live in the communities that they teach in
Speaker 3: because people can be judgmental. Some people don't want to
Speaker 3: be seen having a drink in a bar because a
Speaker 3: student might see them. And a lot of this is
Speaker 3: really based upon the history of education as a primarily
Speaker 3: female enterprise and women as moral pillars in the community,
Speaker 3: and so there's all of this stuff in educational communities
Speaker 3: about showing up as we really are, and so this
Speaker 3: was something that I wanted to begin to normalize. And
Speaker 3: as I was working on this book chapter and talking
Speaker 3: about some of the things that I had been through,
Speaker 3: I also decided that there were many other people like
Speaker 3: myself who were struggling personally and professionally at the same time,
Speaker 3: and I was seeing that, and so I wanted to
Speaker 3: offer something to them, and so I offered a series
Speaker 3: of mindfulness based workshops and invited anyone who wanted to
Speaker 3: attend to come to these workshops, and it ended up
Speaker 3: being a really gorgeous experience where I had these rooms
Speaker 3: full of full of people, maybe ten folks who had
Speaker 3: showed up to really be themselves and to see themselves
Speaker 3: not just through the window of their profession at work,
Speaker 3: but being at work as human beings and talking about
Speaker 3: things that human beings go through. So it was really
Speaker 3: influential for them, it was very influential for me. And
Speaker 3: I wrote this chapter based upon my experience of running
Speaker 3: these workshops and these tools out myself and shared in
Speaker 3: a really vulnerable and meaningful way. And so I remember
Speaker 3: the day that I got a call from the editor.
Speaker 4: After this project had completed.
Speaker 3: I was standing outside of my son's elementary school classroom
Speaker 3: and I got a call from her, and immediately her
Speaker 3: tone was just so apologetic and sad, and she said,
Speaker 3: I'm really sorry, Brandy, but the folks above me in
Speaker 3: this program said that we cannot publish this book chapter
Speaker 3: because it puts you at professional risk for sharing that
Speaker 3: these things had happened, for sharing the fact that you know,
Speaker 3: I had had an emotional affair, or that I had
Speaker 3: drank too much while I was depressed, that I ended
Speaker 3: up going to therapy, Like saying these things out loud,
Speaker 3: they felt actually put my professional reputation at risk. And
Speaker 3: they also said that they did not think I was
Speaker 3: qualified to do the work that I was doing, and
Speaker 3: they thought it put me and the school that I
Speaker 3: worked at a risk.
Speaker 4: Ugh. Yeah, it was. I mean it was.
Speaker 3: Such a blow because I had just started this business
Speaker 3: and I really was already feeling like can I do
Speaker 3: this thing that I think that I can do? And
Speaker 3: I just started to reevaluate everything, and it really made
Speaker 3: me question myself and wonder if I was going to
Speaker 3: be able to do it, if I was allowed to
Speaker 3: do it. It made me deeply insecure, I would say,
Speaker 3: and really shame filled.
Speaker 2: You were hoping to get I'm sure support for doing
Speaker 2: a brief thing that was healing, yeah, and broad about connection,
Speaker 2: and yet you were met with the establishment's mantra of
Speaker 2: why this isn't done exactly exactly.
Speaker 3: And so it's really interesting to think back because the
Speaker 3: story that I just shared with you, that I wasn't
Speaker 3: allowed to write in a book is the same story
Speaker 3: that I tell at the beginning of almost every single
Speaker 3: speaking engagement that I have good for you. And so
Speaker 3: I've shared this perspective in school buildings across the country
Speaker 3: with thousands of educators and universally. There is just this
Speaker 3: sense of relief when people have that moment of yeah,
Speaker 3: I've experienced something like that too. I actually when I
Speaker 3: tell this story of the experience of going through such
Speaker 3: a difficult time while also being an educator, When I
Speaker 3: tell that story to folks at the end, I ask
Speaker 3: them how many of you can relate to some part
Speaker 3: of what I've shared, and I ask them to bravely
Speaker 3: raise their hand if they feel comfortable to do so,
Speaker 3: and then look around the room, and it's incredibly powerful
Speaker 3: to just see, you know, hundreds of hands raised and
Speaker 3: people just looking at one another and knowing like.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is part of it.
Speaker 3: This is just part of the human experience. And so
Speaker 3: it went from a situation where I wanted people to
Speaker 3: be at a certain point and that community just wasn't
Speaker 3: And so I think that gets into this idea of
Speaker 3: you talked about the risks of not taking the risk,
Speaker 3: there is also a risk to doing the thing. There's
Speaker 3: a risk that the community that you're in may not
Speaker 3: be your people, and that can be really hard.
Speaker 2: You said it was a blow, and it sounds like one.
Speaker 2: And so did you initially have the experience, Wow, my
Speaker 2: community is not ready for me, and or did you
Speaker 2: also initially have the experience of like, I am bad
Speaker 2: or I've done something bad? Right, this is not something
Speaker 2: I should have done. How did that land?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's really interesting because I remember in the
Speaker 3: conversation with this woman and I still think of her
Speaker 3: as a wonderful mentor in this conversation with her, I said,
Speaker 3: let's call her Mary. Mary, this is exactly what I
Speaker 3: was writing about, Like, this is so ironic, and she
Speaker 3: just said, I know, you know, And so immediately I
Speaker 3: did have this sense of just the irony of the situation.
Speaker 4: But I also remember, and.
Speaker 3: This is so embarrassing, but it just so happened that
Speaker 3: someone else was standing there was like a little playground
Speaker 3: right outside of elementary school, and parents would stand there
Speaker 3: kind of like you know, as kids were going into school,
Speaker 3: and then a little bit afterward and just in this
Speaker 3: place of deep insecurity talking to another parent who was
Speaker 3: a professional psychologist and essentially asking them for permission and
Speaker 3: like being really kind of awkward about it because I
Speaker 3: was seeking that validation. I think that's what these situations
Speaker 3: can really do. When we're feeling really torn down about
Speaker 3: who we are and was this okay? We start looking
Speaker 3: outside of ourselves for validation.
Speaker 4: Was this okay? Was this okay? Was this okay? And
Speaker 4: I think that.
Speaker 3: That was just where I was in my development with
Speaker 3: this particular issue. I wasn't secure enough in myself yet
Speaker 3: to sort of stand up and say, you know what,
Speaker 3: I have every right to share this content. It's really
Speaker 3: interesting because the credential that this organization thought that I
Speaker 3: needed to have was actually a master's in counseling or
Speaker 3: some sort of social work counseling. I guess that kind
Speaker 3: of area and I was actually starting a program that
Speaker 3: next year to get a.
Speaker 4: Master's in counseling.
Speaker 3: In the year that I spent in the program, which
Speaker 3: I didn't end up finishing, I didn't learn anything about
Speaker 3: mindfulness based tools or even positive psychology in the application
Speaker 3: of those tools. I had a professor that told me
Speaker 3: that they thought psycho education, which is the category that
Speaker 3: he put my work in, he essentially told me he
Speaker 3: thought it was bullshit. So even that community was not
Speaker 3: really interested in the particular thing that I was doing.
Speaker 3: So it's just the perceptions that people have, and I
Speaker 3: wonder probably there are lots of communities.
Speaker 4: That are like this. I know myself that education.
Speaker 3: Is one of those communities where the credential, the piece
Speaker 3: of paper, the next class, the next training, all of
Speaker 3: that is highly emphasized, and I think it can really
Speaker 3: lead to a sense of inadequacy, like never good enough
Speaker 3: to really, you know, do the thing that we're already
Speaker 3: doing and doing so well. And I think so many
Speaker 3: people have that sense of it too, like I'm not
Speaker 3: trusted to just do this thing that I've been doing
Speaker 3: for so long and just do it well, you.
Speaker 2: Know, absolutely, I think what you did was so wise,
Speaker 2: which is to connect with like a mentor someone who
Speaker 2: you know to be a bit of a touchstone and
Speaker 2: in line with your values and who you hope to
Speaker 2: grow into being, and like you had a bit of
Speaker 2: a check in around that based on you know, hay,
Speaker 2: I was met with this response, had some guidance on
Speaker 2: navigating that from somebody you really trusted, so that you
Speaker 2: could stay true to like your values in your voice.
Speaker 3: Yes, definitely with a woman that I had the first
Speaker 3: conversation with.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the woman, Yeah, like I.
Speaker 3: Said, we'll call her Mary. Yes, the second conversation I had.
Speaker 3: I think that person was like not talking about that
Speaker 3: for me. Yes, not that one, Not that one. Yeah,
Speaker 3: the first one, Mary, for sure, not the second one.
Speaker 2: Not the second one. That's so interesting. I was in
Speaker 2: the pharmaceutical industry for thirteen years and very often, especially
Speaker 2: with the last company I worked for, feeling like I
Speaker 2: was just a square peg in a round hole, like
Speaker 2: I just didn't fit in. The things that I did
Speaker 2: from a place of like either wanting to normalize or
Speaker 2: empower were often met by the systems of power with
Speaker 2: a lot of like just shut it down, but anyway,
Speaker 2: potentially more on that another time. Yeah, I think you're
Speaker 2: touching into one of our favorite topics. Yeah, this could
Speaker 2: be a little bit of a teaser for a later
Speaker 2: but certainly the power of the patriarchy and what it
Speaker 2: means to be a woman within the structures of a
Speaker 2: system that's very male dominated and just.
Speaker 3: Has that ethos and that energy. So we'll definitely have
Speaker 3: to talk more about that later.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, stay tuned for more on that. All right, So,
Speaker 2: how is the idea of normalizing showing up in your
Speaker 2: life right now? I'm curious to know. Yeah, something we
Speaker 2: haven't necessarily talked about in the last month or so.
Speaker 3: So there are a couple of things that I think
Speaker 3: come to mind when I think of this idea of normalizing.
Speaker 3: One of the pieces that I would want to bring
Speaker 3: into the conversation is working at the edge of what
Speaker 3: it means for me as a highly sensitive person in
Speaker 3: a world where the structures in place are not intended
Speaker 3: to create a sense of safety and are really built
Speaker 3: around maintaining power, and those who have power really just
Speaker 3: holding onto that very tightly and not really allowing the
Speaker 3: voices of folks to aren't having the best experience inside
Speaker 3: of that system. I think that as a highly sensitive person,
Speaker 3: I get an intuitive sense sometimes of whether a container
Speaker 3: is safe or isn't safe, and then that can't evoke
Speaker 3: really strong feelings for me, feelings that something needs to
Speaker 3: be done to try to create change.
Speaker 4: And none of that is.
Speaker 3: Easy, but it is also I'm recognizing a little bit
Speaker 3: of my own superpower to be able to walk into
Speaker 3: a container, and by container, I just mean a space
Speaker 3: that's intended to be held for a specific purpose. And
Speaker 3: then like sit with the sensations of things just being
Speaker 3: a little off and knowing what those are. But then
Speaker 3: when it comes down to human dignity and humanity, allowing
Speaker 3: myself as that sensitive person to say what needs to
Speaker 3: be said and not really worry about what others say
Speaker 3: in response, because I think oftentimes the response in those
Speaker 3: situations can be very gaslighting. It's sort of like, what
Speaker 3: are you talking about? That's not how things are, and
Speaker 3: so so, working at that edge, I think I'm trying
Speaker 3: to radically accept those parts of myself that have not
Speaker 3: always been easy. Another way that it's showing up in
Speaker 3: my life right now is creating those same really safe
Speaker 3: spaces for others to be radically honest about who they are.
Speaker 3: I actually host an event series here in Columbus. It's
Speaker 3: a monthly breakfast lecture series called Creative Mornings, and during
Speaker 3: our last event, this gentleman raised his hand after the speaker,
Speaker 3: and honestly, I have to say that he fit the
Speaker 3: stereotype of someone that I wouldn't have expected to be vulnerable,
Speaker 3: and that's my own stuff. You know, he was someone
Speaker 3: in his forties, you know, looked a little bit like
Speaker 3: a business d type of person, and what came out
Speaker 3: of his mouth just really surprised me and made me
Speaker 3: kind of question my own, I guess, perceptions of what's
Speaker 3: normal to use that term. And he shared how he
Speaker 3: had just moved to city three years ago, which, of
Speaker 3: course the connotations of that are that we've been in
Speaker 3: a pandemic for three years, and that he'd been telling
Speaker 3: himself that home was inside of himself, and that he
Speaker 3: realized during this event that he's been lying and that
Speaker 3: he felt a sense of home for the first time
Speaker 3: in a long time being in this community. And it
Speaker 3: was very emotional and the community just really lifted this
Speaker 3: person up and was really present for him. But you know,
Speaker 3: he showed up exactly as he was, exactly as he
Speaker 3: was on that day, and I was just profoundly touched
Speaker 3: by that. It was incredibly brave and just an example
Speaker 3: of that radical transparency, self acceptance, honesty that I want
Speaker 3: for myself and that I want to build in the
Speaker 3: community just that I serve. So that's how normalizing is
Speaker 3: showing up in my life right now.
Speaker 4: How about you, Jenny.
Speaker 2: For me, the most recent example that popped into mind
Speaker 2: was around the topic of grief. So not to take
Speaker 2: too much from the episode that is to come on that,
Speaker 2: but there's one example that I thought i'd share. So,
Speaker 2: my mom passed away from a long battle with Alzheimer's
Speaker 2: back in October, and so as her primary caretaker, I've been,
Speaker 2: you know, on that journey with her since diagnosis and
Speaker 2: with her, you know, physically most of the time. So
Speaker 2: there's a part of grief that, you know, I've been
Speaker 2: grieving the loss of her little by little as this
Speaker 2: disease took her from us, you know, little by little,
Speaker 2: and then her death of course, but for me ended
Speaker 2: up being the hardest years, which were like the first
Speaker 2: three or four actually I can remember when I was
Speaker 2: with her. It was acutely hard and acutely sad, and
Speaker 2: all consuming for me. It was really hard for me
Speaker 2: to do anything when we were in Atlanta with her
Speaker 2: other than a ten to her, you know. I just
Speaker 2: didn't have the bandwidth for much else. And then we
Speaker 2: would go back to Ohio and I would return to
Speaker 2: like a cadence of day to day life and attending
Speaker 2: to life and work, and I remember feeling like those
Speaker 2: were moments where I could have a respite from the
Speaker 2: weight of what's going on and elsewhere, and over time
Speaker 2: when I felt that division in my experience and I
Speaker 2: just felt so distant from my grief. When I was
Speaker 2: in Ohio, very often I looked forward to going to
Speaker 2: Ohio where I had some space, and I just remember like,
Speaker 2: as I was experiencing that, what I thought or I
Speaker 2: feared was that I somehow was like not integrated in
Speaker 2: my experience. I was like really compartmentalizing and almost felt
Speaker 2: guilty for like the ability to go have a life
Speaker 2: somewhere else while she was suffering so mightily under the
Speaker 2: weight of everything here Atlanta. And I had some judgment
Speaker 2: on myself around that, although I didn't know how else
Speaker 2: to navigate the situation that I was in in life,
Speaker 2: you know, So then I was reading this book. I'm
Speaker 2: reading I am reading this book on grief, and it's
Speaker 2: a book called The After Grief by Hope Edelman. And anyway,
Speaker 2: she says, there's this idea of very normal experience that
Speaker 2: people have called grief dosing. And she describes it as
Speaker 2: moving back and forth between periods of acute emotional distress
Speaker 2: and periods of focusing on practical restorative tasks, so it's
Speaker 2: like loss oriented versus restoration oriented. States that this actually
Speaker 2: resembles an organic pattern of like emotional or self regulation.
Speaker 2: And so when I read that, I immediately thought about
Speaker 2: this three or four year period and what I was
Speaker 2: actually doing was like grief dosing. And I was fortunate
Speaker 2: enough to have an actual like place to go that
Speaker 2: was separate from her. That's not a privilege that many
Speaker 2: people have, but I was four enough to have this,
Speaker 2: and it gave me a time to restore and rejuvenate
Speaker 2: and then dive back in. It turned out to actually
Speaker 2: be a really like supportive healing thing to do along
Speaker 2: the way. All my judgment on myself all of a
Speaker 2: sudden was like kind of patting myself on the back, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: turns out you navigated that pretty well.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: But Hope goes on to say about this idea of normalizing,
Speaker 2: and she's talking about it through the lens of grief,
Speaker 2: but I think it broadly applies, she says. When my
Speaker 2: lived experience didn't mirror the path I'd been told that
Speaker 2: normal grieving people should take, I assumed the failure was mine.
Speaker 2: I never considered that the definition of normal might be flawed. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so I did not have a role model for someone
Speaker 2: that was in any kind of similar position I was
Speaker 2: in at the time. I just had what was happening
Speaker 2: in front of me and inside of me, and so
Speaker 2: I guess I thought, if you love your mother and
Speaker 2: you're sad that she's dying or has died, then you
Speaker 2: can't pull yourself off the floor, and you can't pull
Speaker 2: yourself out of grief, and you're going to be sad
Speaker 2: for years. I mean, that was just the idea I had.
Speaker 2: I don't know. So the other thing I thought was like, well,
Speaker 2: maybe I don't really love my mother as much as
Speaker 2: I thought I did. Like shoot, you know, because I'm
Speaker 2: able to pull myself out of it when we go
Speaker 2: to Ohio. So more on that later actually, But that's
Speaker 2: how it's kind of showing up for me right now.
Speaker 3: Wow, Yeah, it's really interesting. A couple of things that
Speaker 3: came up when I heard you talking, and one of
Speaker 3: them is, like you had said, the skillfulness how you
Speaker 3: were engaging in that way, and that your body actually
Speaker 3: just knew how to do that. I'm trained in sematic work,
Speaker 3: and there's this concept called titration where you actually navigate
Speaker 3: in your inner experience between a place that feels really
Speaker 3: safe and comfortable for you and then a place that
Speaker 3: maybe feels uncomfortable or a little higher risk, or there's
Speaker 3: some physical manifestation of discomfort there.
Speaker 4: And so an.
Speaker 3: Example might be, let's say someone is experiencing a lot
Speaker 3: of anxiety in their stomach and they're trying to really
Speaker 3: get away from that anxiety. It's the anxiety is creating anxiety, right,
Speaker 3: the desire to escape. So you know, you can navigate,
Speaker 3: for example, to your hand touching something soft and really
Speaker 3: feel into those sensations of the softness and the contrast
Speaker 3: of any temperature that might be there, and those experiences
Speaker 3: might be pleasurable or neutral, and then you can slowly
Speaker 3: dip into Okay, now, how's the anxiety feeling. What's the
Speaker 3: impact of that and then navigate back to the part
Speaker 3: that feels comfortable. And so that actually is a skill
Speaker 3: for building resilience and being with difficult experiences. So you
Speaker 3: were building your resilience while you were dipping in and
Speaker 3: out of that space of grief.
Speaker 4: So I thought that was really beautiful.
Speaker 3: And you know, when we talk about grief, I think
Speaker 3: one of the things that we're going to need to
Speaker 3: talk about is pets. Because I have been following a
Speaker 3: local Columbus woman. Her name is Ali and was a
Speaker 3: photographer here locally but now works with a lot of
Speaker 3: small businesses and Ellie Layman, I should say that's her
Speaker 3: last name. She's been very public about the grief that
Speaker 3: she's experienced from losing her pet of thirteen years. And
Speaker 3: one of the things that I thought she said that
Speaker 3: was really interesting because she also talked a lot about
Speaker 3: the death of a grandparent that she had, and she said,
Speaker 3: the death of losing a put is so immediate because
Speaker 3: it's so daily, it's so moment to moment. It's like
Speaker 3: losing a part of yourself. And so I think that
Speaker 3: there's a lot of grief that we don't acknowledge as
Speaker 3: being significant or real. So I just love that you
Speaker 3: have brought your experience to the table and really shared
Speaker 3: this piece that was important for you and your own
Speaker 3: survival and resilience, and how that was reframed from something
Speaker 3: that actually at one point created shame.
Speaker 4: You know. That's so powerful. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Whenever I would come back to Columbus and people
Speaker 2: would ask how I'm doing, I had to like explain
Speaker 2: or like justify why at this moment I wasn't actively weeping,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. I promise you I'm sad,
Speaker 2: but like at this very moment, you know, I can't
Speaker 2: live like that. I have to like survive and do life.
Speaker 2: So I'm okay, But yeah, we should absolutely talk about
Speaker 2: the grief of pets. In fact, but my heart just
Speaker 2: like clenches when you say that, because our two little
Speaker 2: doggies that are thirteen and I'm just like living in
Speaker 2: some anticipatory grief of them passing. But more on that later.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting because I hadn't even thought about on
Speaker 3: the one you feed. I always hear Eric talking. That's
Speaker 3: something that he brings up a lot, is grief from
Speaker 3: the loss of pets. So yeah, yeah, you know, themes,
Speaker 3: lots of little threads that we can pull on.
Speaker 2: This past Saturday, I don't know that I've mentioned this,
Speaker 2: but we drove from Ohio to Atlanta, a nine hour
Speaker 2: track and got in at seven pm and realized that
Speaker 2: I needed to take Lola to the twenty four hour
Speaker 2: vet room because she had what we thought was a UTI,
Speaker 2: like pretty obvious in all the signs, and like they
Speaker 2: came on all of a sudden. They were really intense,
Speaker 2: and so I drove her down there. You know, it
Speaker 2: was a long night of like tests and stuff, but
Speaker 2: I mean I just had that sense of, like, please God,
Speaker 2: let it just be a UTI that a round of
Speaker 2: antibiotics can address, you know. I mean, we love our
Speaker 2: lits so much. Turns out it was, which is glorious. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so that's really good. But now we have two dogs
Speaker 2: and diapers in our house. Oh and it's yeah, it's
Speaker 2: quite a place to be with us right now. I digress,
Speaker 2: I digress.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, as we're nearing the end of our conversation,
Speaker 3: I wanted to ask the question, are there other voices
Speaker 3: that have impacted your perspective on this topic or just
Speaker 3: other voices you want to bring into the space to
Speaker 3: honor them or give a moment to appreciate.
Speaker 2: So glad you asked there is. There are a couple, actually,
Speaker 2: but I think the one I'll focus on right now
Speaker 2: is so as a mindfulness teacher, that's my practice. My
Speaker 2: daily practice is around mindfulness, mindfulness, meditation. But it's the
Speaker 2: lens through which I experience life. And Joseph Goldstein is
Speaker 2: a teacher, a really revered teacher in this space, who's
Speaker 2: written a book called Mindfulness, and one thing he points
Speaker 2: to is this phenomenon that tends to be a This
Speaker 2: is how I guess Buddhist would say it, but that
Speaker 2: all things arise when the conditions, when the appropriate conditions
Speaker 2: are present, and all things pass away as conditions change.
Speaker 2: I love that in particular because I think it speaks
Speaker 2: to sort of anyone being capable of anything given certain conditions,
Speaker 2: the appropriate conditions.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: It's less personal when we realize that there are reasons,
Speaker 2: there are contributing factors to the thoughts we think, the
Speaker 2: emotions we feel, and that making it less personal to
Speaker 2: me causes me to be able to to examine it
Speaker 2: closer without a lot of moral judgment getting in the way.
Speaker 2: Here's just a quick example. So when I learned about
Speaker 2: what Buddhists will call the five hindrances to mindfulness, which
Speaker 2: our desire aversion the sexily named sloth and torpor, of restlessness,
Speaker 2: and worry and doubt. So these are things that literally
Speaker 2: we will all face, and people have faced since they
Speaker 2: started meditating centuries ago. When we learn about them, then
Speaker 2: we can expect them and we can skillfully navigate them.
Speaker 2: Instead of experiencing them and interpreting it as well, I
Speaker 2: get so restless and distracted that that just means I
Speaker 2: can't meditate. Meditation's not for me right. Actually, know what
Speaker 2: you're encountering is absolutely inevitable, and here through the centuries
Speaker 2: are the ways that we've learned to navigate this skillfully,
Speaker 2: so we can stick with it instead of saying, like,
Speaker 2: this is my restlessness that's coming up. It's just relessness.
Speaker 2: It's just what happens to us, and we know how
Speaker 2: to meet it. So that's one example that's a little
Speaker 2: bit from another context. But I think for me, I
Speaker 2: see a connection in that human experience, the fact that
Speaker 2: there are reasons in contributing factors to the experiences we have,
Speaker 2: and by connecting with others we can learn how to
Speaker 2: navigate things skillfully. So I'll just pause there for a
Speaker 2: second and see kind of what's coming up for you.
Speaker 2: I love Joseph Goldstein and Sharon Salzburg and all of
Speaker 2: the folks at the Insight Meditation Society, and I actually
Speaker 2: had the opportunity to, over the course of the pandemic,
Speaker 2: do a silent retreat, an at home retreat with the
Speaker 2: two of them. And I feel like I didn't know
Speaker 2: as much of Joseph's work, but getting immersed and hearing
Speaker 2: him speak about these things was just really incredible.
Speaker 4: And I think that's all to say.
Speaker 3: I think that we really need to talk about retreats
Speaker 3: and silent retreats, yeah, because it is so interesting the
Speaker 3: responses that people have, Yeah, when I tell them about
Speaker 3: this thing that ideal but something that I wanted to
Speaker 3: share that came up for me while you were sharing
Speaker 3: these sentiments that are so I think powerful and really
Speaker 3: the foundations for mindfulness meditation practice is that on retreat
Speaker 3: and I cannot remember which teacher this was, but one
Speaker 3: of the teachers that I had would say that, like
Speaker 3: all of our inner experiences are just nature, Like it's
Speaker 3: just nature coming through. And so I think that going
Speaker 3: back to the idea of normalizing. If normal is the
Speaker 3: natural state, if we want to use that as a
Speaker 3: term that we can play around with, because I think
Speaker 3: that that's one of the beautiful things about language is
Speaker 3: that it does kind of evolve with us and can
Speaker 3: mean different things at different times. But if we're going
Speaker 3: to use that as an example of what this could mean,
Speaker 3: then nature is our natural state.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 4: It is just to what we are.
Speaker 3: You're part of it and it's part of us, and
Speaker 3: so I think that speaks to what you're describing. Everything
Speaker 3: has a cause and effect and a consequence and we're
Speaker 3: all just natured unfolding moment to moment, right.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's so beautiful. I love that. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 2: My teacher, Martin Illward, he says, like, I'm never surprised
Speaker 2: by my thoughts. I mean, like I can think anything,
Speaker 2: any kind of thoughts can pop into my head, Like
Speaker 2: with the right conditions, anything can pop up there. I'm
Speaker 2: never shocked. I'm never surprised.
Speaker 4: I mean.
Speaker 2: And what I think he's saying with that, it's like
Speaker 2: I don't take them too personally, like because I got
Speaker 2: that that means I am or you know, and so
Speaker 2: I appreciate that freedom to just be like, look at that,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just, yeah, an animal doing its thing.
Speaker 4: My very first retreat was so awful.
Speaker 3: It was a ten day retreat and the that was
Speaker 3: your first one, Yeah, with Gowinka is the teacher. And
Speaker 3: so for anyone who knows anything about retreats, they're quite intensive.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I can't remember exactly how many.
Speaker 3: Let's say, like twelve to fourteen hours of meditation a day,
Speaker 3: three hours a day where you're supposed to try to
Speaker 3: not move at all while you're sitting. Only two meals
Speaker 3: a day, yeah, so you don't have dinner. It's just
Speaker 3: a very highly structured system. I've only ever done it once.
Speaker 3: It just wasn't my jam. Yeah, but kind of along
Speaker 3: the lines of what you're saying about thoughts and how
Speaker 3: they just pop up. Had two roommates, but one that
Speaker 3: I had gotten to know a little bit before we
Speaker 3: went to silence, because you have twenty four hours or
Speaker 3: something like that before you kind of dive into the silence,
Speaker 3: and we'd chatted before, and so then ten days later
Speaker 3: when we got to regroup, she told me this story
Speaker 3: about sitting outside in this freezing cold. I think it
Speaker 3: was February and a Midwest state and so just completely freezing.
Speaker 3: And she said to you, was sitting on this bench
Speaker 3: looking out at this like frozen lake, and in her
Speaker 3: head her first thought was, well, this is actually kind
Speaker 3: of pretty.
Speaker 4: And she said in a completely different voice.
Speaker 3: This voice just came in and said desolate a f
Speaker 3: but without the app like saying it all out loud.
Speaker 2: And she said she just sat there and thought, huh, okay,
Speaker 2: that's sure where that came from. Exactly exactly. They're just
Speaker 2: the most random, uncontrollable things, right, yeah, yeah, try try
Speaker 2: to control your thoughts, like, good luck with that.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: So I think we are coming to the end and
Speaker 3: a question that I love to use for reflecting upon
Speaker 3: an experience, and feel free to.
Speaker 2: I love when you use this question, use it, say it,
Speaker 2: lay it on me, Okay, I love it.
Speaker 3: Feel free to take your time with us and really
Speaker 3: kind of settle in and see what comes up for you.
Speaker 4: But my question is what's alive for you right now? Jenny?
Speaker 4: It's feeling alive, okay.
Speaker 2: So I'm feeling a lot of gratitude for the last
Speaker 2: hour or so that we've been able to have this conversation.
Speaker 2: I'm feeling grateful for our friendship and our connection and
Speaker 2: for our showing up and doing this thing that we've
Speaker 2: been wanting to do for a while. I'm also feeling
Speaker 2: my inner critic popping up, going like, oh, you know,
Speaker 2: you explored things too philosophically, it was your bored people
Speaker 2: to death, Like you know, who's going to come back
Speaker 2: for more after this. I'm just noticing that, I'm noticing it.
Speaker 2: I'm also noticing how much I love this. I love
Speaker 2: being able to explore this idea and the ideas to
Speaker 2: come like with you in this forum. Also, what else
Speaker 2: is alive for me is I guess just the insecurity
Speaker 2: and nerves around hoping that what we're saying connects with
Speaker 2: people in a way that we hope it will, And
Speaker 2: for me, that hope is in a way that feels
Speaker 2: healing and enjoyable, you know. I just I hope that
Speaker 2: that is how it lands, and I hope people join
Speaker 2: us for future conversations. So I'm just feeling all kinds
Speaker 2: of things alive in me right now. What's alive for
Speaker 2: you right now?
Speaker 3: It's interesting because we've had so many conversations, and I
Speaker 3: think that feels very alive for me right now, I'm
Speaker 3: thinking of all of the moments leading to this, for example,
Speaker 3: and this has popped into my head for probably three
Speaker 3: or four times in the last hour that we've been
Speaker 3: sitting together. But I'm just imagining leaving you a voice
Speaker 3: memo on WhatsApp while I was sitting next to this
Speaker 3: beautiful little waterfall on this hike and I was by myself,
Speaker 3: and I was just thinking about you and wondering how
Speaker 3: you were doing and wanting to be there with you
Speaker 3: in this hard.
Speaker 4: Moment you were in losing your mom and.
Speaker 3: Just when I would hear your voice back, when you
Speaker 3: would leave me the next memo, Like the threads through
Speaker 3: all of those experiences, just being like, this is such
Speaker 3: a rich dialogue that we're having, and it's so personally meaningful,
Speaker 3: and it also feels like something I want to include
Speaker 3: other people in, you know, And so I think that
Speaker 3: that's coming up for me. That's something that has been
Speaker 3: a personal experience with the two of us, Like I'm
Speaker 3: so excited to share that with a larger community, and
Speaker 3: like you, at different points of this conversation, I feel
Speaker 3: like there's two parts of me and one parts to
Speaker 3: watching the other part do the thing, because that's how
Speaker 3: it is when you're doing something that you are aware
Speaker 3: of the fact that other people are going to hear,
Speaker 3: and so you have the watch yourself going on, and
Speaker 3: then you also have the self that's just trying to
Speaker 3: be in the moment. Yeah, so yeah, I'm aware of
Speaker 3: that too, just the watch herself. And yeah, I'm really
Speaker 3: excited for some of the conversations that we're going to have.
Speaker 3: You know, we talked about, of course, the topic of grief,
Speaker 3: and I know that we also want to talk about boundaries.
Speaker 3: I think is such a passion topic of mine. I
Speaker 3: know we both have a history with family estrangement and
Speaker 3: we want to talk about that with folks and lots
Speaker 3: of others, just really juicy, juicy things, you know.
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, my hope in future episodes is that
Speaker 2: we continue to find ways to share more and more
Speaker 2: of our own stories, because I think those are the
Speaker 2: moments in this conversation that I enjoyed the most.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, same, all.
Speaker 2: Right, friend. I never know how to wrap things up.
Speaker 2: I always feel so awkward. I mean, like, okay, bye, okay,
Speaker 2: see you next time. Okay, bye, Okay, that's a rap.
Speaker 4: Yeah, how do you.
Speaker 2: We don't even talk about this, how do you? How
Speaker 2: do we end our episode?
Speaker 3: I think just saying, you know, thank you yeah for
Speaker 3: spending this time with us. I hope that you've got
Speaker 3: a sense of the care and the love and the
Speaker 3: joy that's present, the positive intentions, and the hope for
Speaker 3: grace and kindness for all of us, especially within ourselves
Speaker 3: but also with one another. You know, those things really
Speaker 3: ripple out. So I think we wish those things for
Speaker 3: our new friends out there.
Speaker 2: I love it, I love it. We'll say that, thank
Speaker 2: you friends, Thank you Fred.
Speaker 4: Bye.
Speaker 3: Sharing and learning about human experiences is what we love.
Speaker 3: You've heard some of ours. Now we'd like to hear
Speaker 3: some of yours.
Speaker 7: Head to one you feed dot net slash normalize to
Speaker 7: get in touch with us with comments, experience is of
Speaker 7: your own, or really anything you'd like to share. You'll
Speaker 7: also find all things related to something to normalize right
Speaker 7: there on the page for you.
Speaker 3: Most of all, thank you so much for spending your
Speaker 3: time with us today. Until next time,