WEBVTT - Mommie Dearest with Izzy Custodio from Be Kind Rewind 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:04.560 On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:07.920 and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:11.879 or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:15.280 Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:20.799 Jamie dearest, Caitlin, dearest, thank you. I just wanted to 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.040 show you my cool new wire hangers. 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:26.079 I got, oh, yes, yes. 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.600 Was this a known thing about wire hangers where people 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:33.319 talk or was this specifically a movie thing? Is it 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:35.839 like low rent to have wirehangers? 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:37.839 I don't know. 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:38.879 I would say we were a. 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:43.400 Heavily wirehanger household, so was mine, I think. And the 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:47.800 hangers in question, which are like those plushy hangers I 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:50.320 think are like kind of stinky and smell like mothballs. 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:51.519 But what do I know? 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.160 Sure, yeah, I don't know. Like I have a few 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:57.720 wooden clothes hangers that I like to hang my heavier 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:01.400 coats on and stuff, and I feel so classy when 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.680 I'm like, you know, putting my wood hangar on the rack. 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.080 And really with the with hangers, there's always the floor, 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:10.000 which is where most. 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:11.240 Of it is going to end up. 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:13.680 Anyways, it's the hangers that I buy are is like 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:16.000 it's a performance piece that I do every time I 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:20.360 move is acquirer. Okay, well that was a That was 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:22.959 a classy opening to the Mommy Dearist episode. 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.640 Agree to the Bechdel cast. My name is Jamie Loftus. 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:29.000 My name is Caitlin Dronte. This is our show where 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:32.160 we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:35.720 Bechdel test as a jumping off point. But Jamie, what 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:38.560 on Jamie dearest? Yes, what on earth is that? 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:39.680 Well? 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:43.120 It is a media metric created by Alison Bechdel, friend 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.360 of the show originally, and actually it is like pretty 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:50.880 relevant to talk about the context today. Originally was made 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.440 as a one off joke in her comic collection Dix 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:56.559 to Watch out For back in the eighties. Has since 0:01:56.600 --> 0:02:01.400 been adapted to a sort of mainstream metric a lot 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.240 of versions of it. The version we use requires that 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.680 two characters of a marginalized gender with names speak to 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:11.080 each other about something other than a man, and that 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:15.240 conversation can really be about anything narratively relevant, And so 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:19.280 the movie Mommy Dearist, you know, it doesn't have to 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:20.440 be a positive conversation. 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:25.200 That's what I'll say it does not it can be abuse. 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.560 Yes, you so you can you know know that it 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.080 passes the Bechdel test, And we would probably call the 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:35.880 podcast something else if we started it today. But today 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:42.200 we have kind of a behemoth of a movie because 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.840 it's a request we've been getting since this show has existed. 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:49.639 I'd say so for nearly a decade. We have been 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:54.000 avoiding covering this movie because it seemed difficult to prepare for. Yes, 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:56.560 and that is in fact true. But we have the 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:00.000 perfect guest to come and talk about Mommy dear'st with us. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:00.840 Let's get it right in here. 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:05.320 She is the creator behind the YouTube channel be kind Rewind. 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:10.160 It's Isy Cstadio. Welcome, Thank you, Thank you guys for 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:12.919 having me. I'm very excited. It is a daunting task 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:14.040 to talk about this movie. 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:16.840 Thank you so much for being I mean, just to 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:18.919 get the fangirl moment. 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:19.200 Out of the way. 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:22.000 I guess like we cite your work truly like every 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:27.600 other episode, you are so present on this show. 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:29.760 Oh, thank you. No, I'm so excited to be here. 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:30.800 I love this podcast. 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:32.040 Thank you. 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:33.720 Oh my gosh. 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.600 Yeah, we're so excited to have you. Yeah, so much 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.520 of what I've learned about this movie specifically and also 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:43.920 just Joan Crawford as a cultural figure is from your work. 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.120 I mean we I think we were talking about we 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:49.600 recently covered Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, and so that 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:54.600 I mean, I just I still have the I bought 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:57.480 the shirt with the seas and Desist from. 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:01.960 Olivia to havilin that you put out like just so 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:03.200 much lore. 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:06.200 But to get people up to speed, what is your 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.520 history with I guess Joan Crawford as a cultural figure 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:13.640 and mommy dearist, I would say, I mean, Whatever Happened 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:17.320 to Baby Jane was my introduction into Joan Crawford. 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:20.719 I remember renting that at the library as a child. 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:23.839 I don't think I knew anything about it amazing, but 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.480 I was captivated by it. It's just one of those 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:28.400 things that kind of hits to a core part of 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:31.839 your personality that you haven't recognized yet. And so for 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:34.240 the longest time, I just remembered it as like, what 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.400 is that movie with those two crazy ladies who have 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:37.800 a doll? 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:38.600 Like? 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:40.920 I couldn't remember what it was called, and I kept 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:43.320 trying to find it again at the library, but it 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:48.200 just became such an integral part of my pop cultural consumption. 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.039 And then from there as I sort of developed my 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:55.040 interest in Hollywood history and stuff. I mean, Joan was 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.360 a really natural way for me to get into that 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:01.680 through Joan Crawford and Betty Davis. So I guess I 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:06.760 have like a strong relationship with Joan Crawford from my 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:10.160 early days as a sinophile. And then I don't know 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:15.440 exactly how Mommy Dearest got into my life. I'm pretty 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.640 sure my mom introduced it to me. Actually, I think 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:20.520 she had seen it at some point and sort of 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:25.520 understood it as this sort of important camp classic, and 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:27.840 we would watch it together and we would quote it together, 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.280 and she would always jokingly say, aren't you glad I'm not. 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:32.000 This bad. 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:37.520 Great yardstick to pull out as a parent, exactly exactly 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:39.240 like you should be grateful. 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.400 Yeah, So we just have little, I guess inside jokes 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.560 about that. But yeah, and then you know, I made 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:48.360 that video about it, and so I've just kind of 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.279 dug into it later on in life as well. But yeah, 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:53.040 it's just it's been part of my life for as 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:53.360 long as. 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:53.920 I can remember. 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.640 Wow, amazing, incredible, Jamie, how about you? 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.040 I had not seen in this movie all the way 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.520 through before, which I was kind of surprised for It's 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:08.400 one of those movies, a huge movie, very different movie. 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:10.599 But two movies that I was like hoping to, like 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.200 wait to see in theaters for the first time were 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.320 Mommy Dearist and two thousand and one of Space Odyssey. 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:22.800 I still have similar perfect double feature. I still haven't 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:24.800 seen two thousand and one A Space Odyssey because I 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:27.640 really want to see it in the theater, and every 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:31.039 time it's in theaters here, I magically get the flu 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:34.600 or whatever. So similar deal where I wanted to experience 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:36.840 this like it. I think of this movie in the 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:41.080 same vein as like Rocky Horror, where I wanted the experience, 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:45.120 but this was my time, and so I watched Mommy Dearist, 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:49.120 and holy shit, I mean I don't it is like 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:51.000 a full experience. I still would love to see it 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:51.800 in an audience. 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:53.640 Very brief history. 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:59.080 I went and read the first hundred pages of the book. 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:00.839 I didn't have time to read the whole thing, but 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:02.480 I was just trying to get a feel of, like 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.679 what the tone of the book was versus the movie, 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:08.680 and it is very different, even though a lot of 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:09.960 the set pieces are the same. 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:11.080 I don't know. 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:13.680 I'm kind of surprised that this book wasn't brought up 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:16.160 in conversation more with I'm glad my mom died because 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:18.760 I think if this movie or if this book came 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:21.320 out thirty or or whatever forty years later, it would 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:25.000 have been treated quite differently. But yeah, I don't know. 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.680 I really enjoyed learning about how I don't know. I'm 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:32.120 interested in how like abusive dynamics, especially with kids, are 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:34.040 like portrayed in movies and this is like such a 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:38.080 huge example of it. And yeah, I don't know, there's 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.280 so much to talk about. I'm interested to get into it. 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.360 Kitlyn w's her history with Mommy dearis had you seen 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:43.800 it before? 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.000 I had? Okay, I watched it during the Great Kitlyn 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.160 movie binge of two thousand and five, huge, thank you 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:53.480 so much. And at that point, I don't think I 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.920 had much of a handle on who Joan Crawford was 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:01.880 because I was only starting to make my way through 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:07.400 classic Hollywood cinema. I remember it being a difficult watch. 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.280 I am sure I perceived it as being like very 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:15.440 over the top and campy, but I more remember being like, oh, 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:20.440 my god. So this is hard to watch, but since 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:25.720 then I forgot most of it, except for I remembered 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:27.200 the wire hanger scene. 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.160 I mean, yeah, I feel like that's almost a cultural 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:31.120 osmosis thing. 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:32.640 Yeah, definitely. 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:37.240 I get a lot of TCM memes in my algorithm, 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.920 which is great, but they like recently, I don't know 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.559 on what grounds, but I learned from via a TCM 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:49.160 meme that there was briefly like an AJAX, like the 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:53.880 bathroom bleacher that was a Mommy Dearest tie in AJAX. 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:55.719 Wow, just. 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.520 Which we'll we'll talk about, but that was the most 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.240 recent time I was thinking about Mommy DearS before we 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:04.640 settled on this episode. 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:07.040 When when was that marketing? 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:09.160 I think it would have been for the original run 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:10.000 of the movie. 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:12.360 Yeah, yeah, I think I think there were. There was 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.240 kind of a pivot in the advertising where they sort 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:19.360 of lean into the grotesque miss you know, and with 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.200 wire hangers and things like that, so which I've liked. 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:22.960 That was part of it. 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:25.160 I was really surprised. 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.760 I mean, we could talk about it later as well, 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.760 but like, I was really surprised at how instantly the 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.440 pivot was and being like, oh, this is a camp movie, Okay, 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:35.920 We're like, I assumed that that happened over a period 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:39.280 of years, but it seems to have happened like inside 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:40.840 of the first week or so of release. 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:48.000 Yeah, kind of like how Cats was just immediately true it. Yes, 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:51.640 I did compare Mammy Dear's to Cats, but I. 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:58.520 Don't know, like which production is like catching astray in that. 0:09:58.240 --> 0:09:58.760 I don't know. 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:02.480 But yeah, I I'm excited to talk about it. I 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:04.640 feel like I'm I said this off Mike too, but 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:07.240 I feel like I'm mostly here to learn from the 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:11.400 two of you. So I'm I'm ready to learn a 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:15.160 lot that I think I don't already know. But yeah, 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.560 let's take a quick break and then we'll come back 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:32.040 for the recap. Hell yeah, and we're back. Okay, So 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:36.400 obvious trigger warning at the top. 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:37.160 Really for. 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:40.920 Child abuse just from Beat one. 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:45.439 Yeah, yeah, so beware of that. 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:48.439 Also, this movie was rated I mean, this movie is 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:50.959 rated PG, which just isn't not crazy? 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.920 Is it because it was before they implemented PG thirteen. 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:56.520 Oh that's a good question. 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:58.000 I honestly don't know. 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:00.840 But I mean she drops an F bomb too, which 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:02.760 I was like, that's a little surprising, Like I don't 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.240 think you'd be allowed in PG, right, I don't know. 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:06.080 Oh my god, you. 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:09.280 Were definitely not. Yeah, the F word, okay, I think 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:12.280 you're allowed one F word in a PG thirteen movie, 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:15.440 and if it's more than that, it becomes an R rating. 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.080 So PG thirteen ratings were introduced in eighty four. So 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:21.800 this is a few that's why shy, but also just 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:24.680 like really great indicator because I think the reason it 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:28.920 got PG is because there's no like sex proper in it. 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:33.400 Parental guidance needed. Indeed, I think we can. 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:38.120 Say if anyone needs some solid parental guidance, everyone in this. 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:43.760 Movie, yeah, yes, okay. So we meet Joan Crawford played 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:48.319 by Faye Dunaway, who, of course was a famous star 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:52.720 during the classic Hollywood era. We see Joan doing a 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:55.200 very elaborate morning beauty routine. 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:57.400 We all just something you could see a fourteen year 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:58.760 old do on TikTok today. 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.240 Also the fact that this was received so poorly, they're like, 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:04.880 what a vain woman? And now it's like everyone on 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.320 earth is doing that. Yeah, it's like a challenge to 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:08.679 put your face in ice. 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:13.000 You know. Oh yeah, she she has so many like 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:15.000 elastic bands on her head. 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:18.480 And I'm like, normal, now, the like taping the mouth 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:19.240 shut of it all. 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:21.640 I mean you could say she's a pioneer. 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:27.679 Trail laser. God forbid a woman have a morning routine. 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.400 God for better woman looks Max's geez. 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:35.640 This sequence reminded me of the like grooming sequence in 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.400 American Psycho, and I was like, Wow, if you have 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:43.120 like a beauty routine in a movie, it's to indicate 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:44.439 that that character. 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:51.080 Is crazy, like a vain, freaking nightmare person. Yeah, is 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:52.839 the logic that this movie appinds by? 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.640 Yeah, I do think, Yeah, there's some sort of connection here, 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.600 not just with whatever happened to Baby Jane, but like 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:03.560 the substance even you know, just kind of like the 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:07.320 desperation we cast on these women to remain young, and 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:10.520 pressure from the industry and all of these things, right, 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.880 and then like use it as a shorthand for mockery 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.080 and all this other stuff where I don't know. 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:20.960 Like there as we'll discuss. There's so many reasons to 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:26.000 criticize Joan Crawford having a facial routine. Uh, that was 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.320 intense for an aging woman in Hollywood. I wouldn't say 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:34.440 crocs the top like five hundred right, exactly, but it 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.120 is a shorthand for like, this woman is unhinged. 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:40.280 Yeah, look at this ridiculous woman for trying to adhere 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:44.199 to rigid beauty standards that society enforces upon her. 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:48.760 Like I've done worse than everything in the oh absolutely, yeah, 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:50.160 and will and planned to. 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:52.280 Yeah. 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:54.440 Okay, So we see her doing that. We also see 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.960 her scrubbing her floors and berating her house. I think 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:03.600 it's her housekeeper Malan and her cleaner Helga for not 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:07.079 doing a thorough enough job. So we start to realize 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:13.800 that she has very intense standards for hygiene and cleanliness, 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:18.679 and she's just a very intense person overall. A male 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.520 suitor of hers comes over. This is an entertainment lawyer 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:26.880 named Greg Savat. She tells him that she plans to 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.320 adopt a baby, and Greg tells her that she will 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:36.040 likely be denied by adoption agencies since she's a working woman, 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:41.000 she's currently unmarried, and she's twice divorced, which this and 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.360 it's I understand why the movie doesn't get into like 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.360 the business of this, but I just think it's interesting. 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:50.240 Was definitely true because in California at that time, a 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:53.560 single woman could not legally adopt a child at all, 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:57.880 like she had to go to per Christina Crawford. Joan 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:01.720 Crawford had to go to Nevada to adopt Christina, which 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:04.520 is definitely true. But for Christina, she had to do 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.560 it through a mafia guy, like through the Jewish mafia 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:09.200 in Miami. 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.760 Yeah, there's like illegal baby markets basically for adoption. 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:15.560 It's human trafficking. 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.120 Yeah, yeah, I mean to the point where and another 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.320 thing that got again understandably cut from the movie. But 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:25.560 the Christopher, her brother, is not even the first Christopher. 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:30.880 She adopted a baby named Christopher that the birth mother 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:35.360 returned for unclear what the situation was, but she was 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.200 very upset. It seems like the baby had definitely been 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:41.840 trafficked to Joan Crawford. So Christopher one point I was 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:46.560 taken back by his birth mother. Another kid shows up 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:51.280 that not shows up, is trafficked to Joan Crawford that 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:55.720 she names after her husband at the time, Philip. And 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.720 then Joan Crawford and Philip break up and Joan Crawford 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:04.120 changed just baby Phillip's name to Christopher. Whoa And so 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.920 there is a Christopher Crawford, but it's the second. 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:09.360 One second Christopher. 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:11.480 Yeah, oh my gosh, I did not know that. 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:14.160 And then there are twins who are adopted in nineteen 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:18.040 forty seven who aren't even in the movie, completely erased 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:20.080 from the movie. Well, and I think that's kind of 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:24.960 intentional because they both very much believe that Christina is 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:28.440 full of it. They have a very different experience growing up, 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:33.160 and so I think not to get into the details 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:35.480 of that, but I think, you know, that would have 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:39.520 complicated the directness of the movie, shall we say, to 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.080 have a yes, yeah, to have an opposing. 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.880 View, definitely, And so for like all of those things 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:48.400 to be sort of like compressed into the line you're 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:52.560 too vain to be a mother Joan. Yeah, Like, yeah, 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:54.360 that's that's how this movie works. 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.920 So, as we were hinting at, she is denied by 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.840 an adoption agency. The movie does not make it clear 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.160 exactly what happens, but it seems like Greg pulls some 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:10.720 strings quote unquote and arranges this adoption, and so this 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.119 is baby Christina. We cut to a few years later. 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:20.440 Joan has also adopted Christopher by this point, and Christopher too. 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:23.600 We skipped over Christopher one point zero, Yeah, we did. 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:27.280 And then I'm also like, Okay, we have a child 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.960 named Christina and another child named Christopher. That's too many. 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:32.320 Those names are too alike. 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:36.080 Well, Christina was originally named Joan Junior. Yeah, and then 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.560 Joan was like, now, I don't. 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.400 Know what the logic was for switching, yet, I think 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:43.040 she had done something along lines of like it would 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:46.520 just be confusing if she also wanted to be an actor, 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.200 because she had been married to Douglas Fairbanks Junior, whose 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:54.040 father was Douglas Fairbanks Senior, and that caused some confusion, 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.440 and so I think she was just like, well, maybe 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:57.440 I was wrong about. 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.840 That and changed her to Christina. Yeah. So when the 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.920 maybe gets to Nevada, never mind, it's Christina now. 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.840 So she's just changing her kids' names right and left 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:12.200 that It's very bizarre, Okay, Christina. At this point, I'm 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:15.359 not sure how old she's supposed to be because the 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.359 movie keeps jumping ahead in time, but they use the 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:24.560 same child actor, Maara Hoble for that whole time, even 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:27.080 though she's supposed to advance an age, So I think 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:31.520 she's probably around like five years old. At this big 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:37.440 birthday party that Joan throws for her and Joan seems 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:42.360 like a loving, doting mother, but maybe that's just because 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.880 there are a lot of photographers and publicity people around, 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.760 because things are very different when they're out of the 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:54.200 public eye. Not all of the time, but sometimes Joan 0:18:54.520 --> 0:19:00.119 is very controlling. She is hypercritical of Christina. There's a 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:04.240 scene by their swimming pool where Joan makes her daughter 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:08.040 over exert herself in the pool and then be rates 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.920 her for losing their swimming race, which. 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:13.840 That my grandma had. 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.439 Uh not to put my dead grandma on blast, but 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:21.160 my grandma had a I don't know, an undiagnosed personality 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:26.119 disorder because she didn't believe in treatment mental health, and 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:28.480 that was it was such a weird scene to like, 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.880 I hadn't been in that exact situation. But my grandma 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:36.800 was frequently challenging the kids to rigged contests that only 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:41.719 adults could win, more more mind contests like I was 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:43.880 losing trivia to my grandma. 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:49.359 Constantly get alive, rest and piss to Grandma. 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:52.840 I do think that is one of my favorite line 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:54.959 deliveries in the movie, though, is when she goes you 0:19:55.040 --> 0:20:00.119 lost again, just like damn it's and. 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:02.919 She's like, I'll always be bigger and faster than you, 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:04.160 and I'll always win. 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:06.320 It's crazy. I love it. 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:10.840 It's hard not like I I get why people are 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:15.080 obsessed with Faye Dunaway's performance in this, Like totally there 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.680 was no they They must have used every unhinged because 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:20.879 I read there was a lot of coverage of this movie. 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.440 There was like a ton of footage shot and maybe 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:28.680 they just used the most unhinged take of every single angle, 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:33.080 like she'd it's relentless, It's intense, very. 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:37.200 Much so this. In this moment of the film, Joan 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:42.720 becomes very physically abusive toward Christina. She's pushing and striking her. 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:48.240 There's another scene where Joan finds Christina playing with some 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:52.520 of Joan's things and like hair products and things like that, 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:59.720 and she's furious and cuts off Christina's hair. Meanwhile, Joan 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:02.600 does sperately wants a part in a film that she 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.000 has not yet been offered, and it seems like Greg 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:11.280 once again pulls some strings and Joan thinks she's gotten 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:16.280 the part. But and I'm not totally clear what happens here, 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:19.560 but there's a dinner with MGM studio head Louis B. 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:22.600 Mayer and some bankers ueby. 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:25.320 Mahra gets off so easy in this movie. It was 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:27.200 like genuinely shocking. 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:32.680 Yeah yeah, but whatever their interaction is, Joan is humiliated 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:36.080 by and she and Greg get in a huge fight 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:40.000 about it, and he basically says like, you're all washed 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:44.119 up actor, you're getting old and your career isn't what 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:48.560 it used to be, and she's devastated. They break up. 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:54.480 Some time passes. Little Christopher is now several years older, 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:58.000 but Christina has somehow not aged. I think it. 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:01.560 Reminds me of mad Men The Brother. The brother could 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:04.600 be any age. Nobody really ages in this movie. It's like, 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:07.399 I think they only put old people make up like 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:12.119 on them on Carol Anne that and that's it. Cal 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:17.440 ages twenty years and like I think six story days. 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:18.560 Oh in a jump cut. 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:20.000 Yeah yeah, it's wild. 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:24.640 Yeah, yeah, I'm excited to Ritania Alda who played Caroline. 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:28.440 She really she really uh had to deal with a lot. 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:31.680 It sounds like on that shoot yeah, where Faye done 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:34.080 Away just kept being like make her uglier. 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:38.440 To me. Part of the camp is the fact that Christina, 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:42.680 until she's played by a different, much older actor, does 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:47.280 not age, but her younger brother like becomes taller than 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:49.760 her at some point, and I'm just like, how how 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:51.400 is this? How is this happening? 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:54.399 The wig too, The wig is is a lot that 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:55.480 they put on that child. 0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:59.800 Oh yeah, some brutal wigs in this movie, I will say, definitely. 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:04.359 So the children are a little older, but Joan continues 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:09.919 to be incredibly vindictive and abusive toward them, especially toward Christina, 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:15.440 berating her taking away her baby dolls. We find out 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:20.040 at some point that Joan straps I think maybe both children, 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:25.520 but definitely Christopher to his bed at night, which is yeah, fine, 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:29.159 which is true? Yeah, Oh my gosh. Then Joan has 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:32.000 a meeting with Louis B. Mayer, who fires her from 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:35.399 MGM because her last few movies have lost money. 0:23:35.480 --> 0:23:37.600 And he's such a nice guy about it. 0:23:37.880 --> 0:23:40.679 He's doing her a favor by firing her. 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:45.439 Just the Louis B. Mayor edit on this is really 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:46.880 something else. 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:49.399 Although I do my impression of her leaving is that 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:53.919 it is pretty much like a mutual my understanding of it. 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:57.720 I could be misremembering, but I don't recall it being 0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:01.560 like a brutal firing in the same way that it's 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:03.680 kind of portrayed here, although I don't think she was 0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:06.199 happy about it obviously, because she was kind of she 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:07.920 understood what was happening to. 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:11.320 Her basically right well, in the movie version of. 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:12.880 It, it's like she just has to be the most 0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:18.560 unhinged person in every scene, right, So it's like, yes, yeah. 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:22.600 She lashes out. She destroys her garden in the middle 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:25.119 of the night and makes her children get out of 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:28.840 bed and help her. And this is the like Tina, 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:34.160 bring me the acts scene. Yes, great read, great read, 0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:37.000 thank you so much, Thank you so much. I've been 0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:40.480 taking improv classes, so my performing abilities. 0:24:40.000 --> 0:24:41.160 Are really nice. 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:47.440 Through the root, we cut to some time later, Joan 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:51.680 has signed with another studio and I lost track which 0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:57.240 one that warners okay, and she is preparing for her 0:24:57.400 --> 0:25:01.480 role in Mildred Pearce. Then there's a scene where Christina 0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:04.480 does not want to eat her lunch because it's a 0:25:04.520 --> 0:25:09.280 steak that's cooked very rare, And we're seeing Christina becoming 0:25:09.400 --> 0:25:14.160 more defiant toward her mother as she gets older, although 0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:17.560 again she is visibly not aging, so it's impossible to 0:25:17.560 --> 0:25:20.600 tell how old she's supposed to be. In any case, 0:25:21.000 --> 0:25:25.560 Joan refuses to feed Christina anything until she has finished 0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:29.119 this steak. And this goes on for like a day 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:35.399 or two. Cut to Joan and her children listening to 0:25:35.560 --> 0:25:39.560 because also like the moments this movie cuts away from 0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:44.439 and the time jumps, Yeah, we're giving me such bad whiplash. 0:25:44.480 --> 0:25:48.240 Like I was like, oh, okay, now it's two years later. 0:25:48.320 --> 0:25:50.439 I guess I don't know anyway, So I was wondering 0:25:50.440 --> 0:25:52.359 how you were gonna do this segment because I was like, 0:25:52.800 --> 0:25:54.720 I feel like it's very hard to even there's no 0:25:54.800 --> 0:25:57.439 real plot either, you know, so it is just like 0:25:58.200 --> 0:25:58.479 it's hard. 0:25:58.480 --> 0:25:59.960 It's a series of scene. 0:26:00.280 --> 0:26:06.879 Yes, it's a series of unfortunate literally, yes, yes, Okay, 0:26:06.960 --> 0:26:10.240 So we cut to Joan and her children listening to 0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:13.040 a radio broadcast of the Academy Awards. 0:26:13.600 --> 0:26:17.040 I think Joan has faked having pneumonia to avoid going 0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:22.520 to the ceremony. She wins the oscar for Mildred Pearce, 0:26:22.880 --> 0:26:26.400 and there are paparazzi outside taking pictures of Joan when 0:26:26.400 --> 0:26:31.199 she opens the door, and Christina seems to enjoy some 0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:35.240 of this limelight and so maybe that will inform her 0:26:35.320 --> 0:26:40.240 career choices later on. Following that, we get the very 0:26:40.240 --> 0:26:44.960 famous scene of the movie Joan comes into Christina's room. 0:26:45.440 --> 0:26:48.520 There's cream on her face that makes her look very scary. 0:26:48.720 --> 0:26:49.840 She's joker mud. 0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:50.320 Yeah. 0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:53.119 Well, the scene is shot like a horror film totally, 0:26:53.359 --> 0:26:53.800 I think. 0:26:54.040 --> 0:26:57.320 And Joan finds an article of clothing I think a 0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:01.159 dress of Christina's on a wire hanger her and she 0:27:02.280 --> 0:27:06.960 loses it. She starts screaming and ripping all of Christina's 0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:11.159 clothes from her closet. Joan then beats her, forces her 0:27:11.200 --> 0:27:14.600 to scrub the bathroom floor, forces Christina to call her 0:27:14.680 --> 0:27:18.160 mummy dearest, which we've seen prior, but we weren't sure. 0:27:18.280 --> 0:27:20.000 I think up until this point if this was like 0:27:20.680 --> 0:27:23.320 just what Christina happened to be calling her mom, or 0:27:23.359 --> 0:27:27.480 if this was like an enforced thing. Anyway, it's absolutely 0:27:27.560 --> 0:27:34.080 horrible to watch. And obviously this child is completely traumatized. 0:27:34.400 --> 0:27:34.600 Yeah. 0:27:34.640 --> 0:27:37.680 And and like you're saying, is he like fully shot 0:27:37.760 --> 0:27:40.199 like a slasher movie kind of? 0:27:40.400 --> 0:27:45.280 Yeah, she's kind of like backlit by the closet light. Yeah, 0:27:45.359 --> 0:27:47.880 it's it's pretty haunting in a way. 0:27:48.000 --> 0:27:52.000 Yeah, definitely, it's I mean, there's a reason I remembered it. 0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:59.800 Everyone remembers that. Like it's not subtle. Nope. And then 0:28:00.160 --> 0:28:03.800 asked that scene with the next scene, which is Joan 0:28:03.880 --> 0:28:09.440 and her children calmly sitting for a televised interview at 0:28:09.440 --> 0:28:13.040 their home at Christmas time, where they appear to be 0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:17.920 a happy, loving family. Then we meet a new suitor 0:28:18.320 --> 0:28:23.320 of Jones, Ted Gilbert, and we barely see him on 0:28:23.400 --> 0:28:28.080 screen except for Christina is responsible for serving him drinks 0:28:28.960 --> 0:28:34.800 as a child, and Christina interrupts Joan and Ted canoodling 0:28:35.080 --> 0:28:40.080 by bringing her mother a beverage, and this apparently infuriates 0:28:40.200 --> 0:28:44.800 Joan so much that she sends Christina to boarding school for. 0:28:45.160 --> 0:28:47.320 This was the wildest ever. 0:28:47.440 --> 0:28:50.680 Both times Christina goes to school a wild time jump, 0:28:51.000 --> 0:28:56.360 yes happens. It's either a new person or a confusing 0:28:56.400 --> 0:28:59.640 wig new wag stop. The crazy one for me is 0:28:59.640 --> 0:29:02.280 when she leaves the convent school later and she's in 0:29:02.360 --> 0:29:04.239 her new wig and she's like, thank you for like 0:29:04.280 --> 0:29:06.720 sticking with me through this trying time and we haven't 0:29:06.760 --> 0:29:11.560 seen her at all since since I'm what was happening 0:29:11.600 --> 0:29:15.400 to you have no idea? Well, it's like, among other things, 0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:18.880 that's totally understandable why Christina comfort hated this movie because 0:29:18.920 --> 0:29:22.240 it's not about her, Like it's no exactly Yeah, it's 0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:27.240 just like the gnarliest abuse scenes adapted in the broadest 0:29:27.280 --> 0:29:28.200 possible way. 0:29:28.960 --> 0:29:32.200 I wonder if there was ever any I don't know, do. 0:29:32.200 --> 0:29:34.160 You remember Izzy from Like I know that there was 0:29:34.200 --> 0:29:38.920 like a bajillion versions of this script, if there was 0:29:39.000 --> 0:29:43.240 ever more of a focus on Christina's life away from 0:29:43.320 --> 0:29:46.560 Joan or well, I know Christina had wanted to write 0:29:46.560 --> 0:29:47.520 the script originally. 0:29:47.560 --> 0:29:50.680 I don't know if she ever actually turned in a draft, 0:29:50.920 --> 0:29:53.400 but that would be my guess if there ever were one, 0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:55.479 because I think the other versions that I'm aware of 0:29:56.040 --> 0:29:59.640 did more to contextualize Joan or at least give more 0:30:00.560 --> 0:30:04.400 show time to Joan's life than is already in the film, 0:30:04.520 --> 0:30:08.080 Because even that, I feel like doesn't even do justice 0:30:08.320 --> 0:30:10.720 like what was happening with Joan either, So I think 0:30:10.720 --> 0:30:12.440 it just sort of ends up doing a disservice to 0:30:12.480 --> 0:30:16.720 both of them. As you're saying, like, Christina's not benefiting 0:30:16.760 --> 0:30:20.600 from this at all, I think no, no, And at 0:30:20.600 --> 0:30:25.200 both schools there is like one woman teacher and or 0:30:25.320 --> 0:30:29.120 Nunn who clearly sees that something bad is afoot but 0:30:29.240 --> 0:30:32.160 we never find out. We never find out if they 0:30:32.200 --> 0:30:35.480 ever talk about it or what happens it seems like 0:30:35.560 --> 0:30:39.120 Christina definitely likes being away at school better than she 0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:41.600 likes being at home, which matches with her story. 0:30:41.720 --> 0:30:48.640 But right although, when Joan sends her away, initially Christina 0:30:48.840 --> 0:30:53.280 is crying and begging her mother not to send her 0:30:53.280 --> 0:30:56.680 away to no Avail. And then this is a big 0:30:56.720 --> 0:30:59.560 time jump. We cut to many years later. Christina is 0:30:59.600 --> 0:31:05.920 now a teenager played by Diana Scarwood. She's still at 0:31:06.560 --> 0:31:10.800 boarding school studying acting. Then we see a scene where 0:31:10.840 --> 0:31:14.320 she and her mother go out for lunch. Their relationship 0:31:14.360 --> 0:31:19.480 is still very contentious. Where Christopher is we have no idea. 0:31:19.720 --> 0:31:20.760 He disappears. 0:31:23.040 --> 0:31:25.120 Christopher got He's. 0:31:25.000 --> 0:31:29.560 Gone, and then Joan reveals that she's having financial difficulties. 0:31:30.040 --> 0:31:34.480 She has lost her contract at Warner Brothers, so Christina 0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:37.440 will need to do a work scholarship program to be 0:31:37.480 --> 0:31:41.560 able to stay in school. But some time later, her 0:31:41.600 --> 0:31:45.200 mother is humiliated and pulls Christina out of school after 0:31:45.320 --> 0:31:48.240 she is caught making out with a boy, but she 0:31:48.360 --> 0:31:54.640 tells everyone that Christina was expelled, followed by Joan being 0:31:54.680 --> 0:31:59.800 similarly humiliated when a reporter comes from Redbook to do 0:31:59.840 --> 0:32:03.479 a cover story on Joan and she's Barbara hard to 0:32:03.520 --> 0:32:05.560 improve this is barbar Barbara Barba. 0:32:05.800 --> 0:32:06.640 That's Barbara Please. 0:32:06.800 --> 0:32:09.760 Yeah, okay, okay, one of the one of the five 0:32:09.800 --> 0:32:14.080 lines from this movie. Yes, exactly, Barbara Please, who is 0:32:14.120 --> 0:32:17.200 played by Marlon Brando's sister, which is I thought was 0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:19.640 kind of a fun facter egg. 0:32:19.880 --> 0:32:21.000 Yeah, because I saw. 0:32:20.960 --> 0:32:24.240 Joscelyn brand out, I was like, surely not of the 0:32:24.280 --> 0:32:25.800 Marlon Brandos. But it is. 0:32:27.480 --> 0:32:32.120 Interesting. Joan is trying to impress this reporter, but she 0:32:32.280 --> 0:32:36.640 absolutely blows it and then lashes out at Christina. Things 0:32:36.720 --> 0:32:42.640 become incredibly violent, with Joan strangling and nearly killing Christina. 0:32:43.480 --> 0:32:48.000 We then cut to Christina at a con convent I 0:32:48.040 --> 0:32:53.760 wrote covenant, but that is not a convent where she 0:32:53.880 --> 0:32:56.760 has been sent to finish out her schooling, where she 0:32:56.840 --> 0:33:01.680 will have no privileges or contact with the outside world. 0:33:02.280 --> 0:33:07.160 We skip over more years and cut to Christina has 0:33:07.200 --> 0:33:09.280 finished school and returned home. 0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:11.920 She has a new wig, new wig. 0:33:12.640 --> 0:33:15.520 Most importantly, yes, I don't even know how I'd like, 0:33:15.600 --> 0:33:17.400 we're not even yeah, Like, I have no idea how 0:33:17.400 --> 0:33:19.160 old she's supposed to be at this point. 0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:21.240 I think by the. 0:33:21.200 --> 0:33:24.240 Time she's in the soap opera, in reality, she was 0:33:24.360 --> 0:33:28.240 twenty eight. Yeah, and Joan was like sixty three, but 0:33:28.360 --> 0:33:30.800 Faye down Away looks the same the whole movie. So 0:33:30.840 --> 0:33:33.120 it's it's just unclear. It's really tough. 0:33:33.360 --> 0:33:34.920 Yeah, I mean, this is one of the things that 0:33:34.960 --> 0:33:37.440 I think is really interesting about this film is like 0:33:38.000 --> 0:33:41.920 I think when we're talking about biopics kind of of 0:33:41.960 --> 0:33:44.959 this nature now, what we're so used to seeing is 0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:49.440 these references that are kind of winks to the audience 0:33:49.520 --> 0:33:52.360 to be like, remember this and this film. It's not 0:33:52.440 --> 0:33:56.440 even trying to give you those little touchstone moments to 0:33:56.520 --> 0:33:59.880 be like, oh, the film that she is desperately trying 0:33:59.920 --> 0:34:03.200 to get is this film, Like they'll just not mention 0:34:03.320 --> 0:34:05.320 what it is. I think Mildred Piers is one of 0:34:05.360 --> 0:34:08.640 the only movies they actually name, I believe so in 0:34:08.680 --> 0:34:11.440 the film, and it's like you never see It's like 0:34:11.480 --> 0:34:14.160 you don't see her like hanging out with Barbara Stanwick 0:34:14.280 --> 0:34:17.080 or like any of her friends, or like directors or anything. 0:34:17.480 --> 0:34:20.239 And these kinds of like world building things that we're 0:34:20.239 --> 0:34:22.840 so used to seeing in modern biopics just like doesn't 0:34:22.880 --> 0:34:25.719 exist here in a way that makes this story feel 0:34:25.800 --> 0:34:30.080 so like isolated and prison like totally and very bizarre, 0:34:30.120 --> 0:34:32.279 Like it's just kind of it's hard to keep track 0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:35.600 of is I think one thing that it happens. 0:34:35.360 --> 0:34:38.399 Yeah, it like just happens out of time, and yeah, 0:34:38.960 --> 0:34:42.200 like it's you never to hold anyone, is what you're 0:34:42.520 --> 0:34:45.719 supposed to be? I don't know, I mean it will. 0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:50.120 Like part of the reason that this movie is, as 0:34:50.200 --> 0:34:53.760 you illustrate in your video, like the definition of camp, 0:34:54.280 --> 0:34:58.560 is because it doesn't seem like this is necessarily intentional, 0:34:58.800 --> 0:35:01.800 like they really thought they were do something with this movie, 0:35:01.960 --> 0:35:04.479 but it is. I mean it like it's a weird 0:35:04.480 --> 0:35:07.120 disservice to everyone too, because it's like showing that Joan 0:35:07.160 --> 0:35:10.360 had friends doesn't only like give you a better idea 0:35:10.600 --> 0:35:13.640 of who Joan Crawford was, which I'm imagining young audiences 0:35:13.640 --> 0:35:17.000 in the early eighties may have needed, but it also, 0:35:17.080 --> 0:35:18.920 like I don't think does a very good job of 0:35:18.960 --> 0:35:23.680 like explaining how someone might be getting away with such 0:35:23.760 --> 0:35:26.880 abuse the entire time. It's not like she was a 0:35:27.440 --> 0:35:30.359 like unhinged person locked up in her house. Like part 0:35:30.360 --> 0:35:34.000 of the reason that abusive parents can thrive is because 0:35:34.040 --> 0:35:37.439 they are perceived as a good person by the people 0:35:37.480 --> 0:35:41.200 around them and all this I don't know, it's very complicated, 0:35:41.280 --> 0:35:45.440 but just every choice in this movie is so weird. 0:35:45.560 --> 0:35:51.200 The scene where she nearly strangles Christina in front of 0:35:51.360 --> 0:35:57.319 a reporter seemingly has no consequences, Like and I don't 0:35:57.360 --> 0:36:00.440 know if that happened in real life, but like you 0:36:00.480 --> 0:36:05.600 would think that Barbara would have written about that or 0:36:05.920 --> 0:36:08.800 I don't. I don't know, but I don't know about it. 0:36:08.880 --> 0:36:10.040 I don't think that happened. 0:36:10.960 --> 0:36:11.480 I don't. 0:36:12.239 --> 0:36:14.600 Well, it's like that also like really makes it seem that, 0:36:14.719 --> 0:36:19.640 like Hollywood columnists have such fealty. I'm like, no, that's 0:36:19.640 --> 0:36:23.080 a that's a story. You would definitely print that totally. 0:36:23.440 --> 0:36:28.240 Yeah, yeah, okay. So Christina has returned home from her schooling. 0:36:28.520 --> 0:36:33.040 She meets her mother's new husband, Alfred, who is a 0:36:33.080 --> 0:36:34.719 big wig at Pepsi. 0:36:35.000 --> 0:36:36.840 Oh yeah, the late stage Pepsi. 0:36:38.200 --> 0:36:41.040 Every letterbox trophy of this movie is like, Wow, didn't 0:36:41.040 --> 0:36:42.680 know Pepsi was gonna feature so heavily. 0:36:42.960 --> 0:36:48.520 That's so I forgot about that. And Christina has gotten 0:36:48.600 --> 0:36:54.200 into acting. She's financially struggling and her mother refuses to 0:36:54.280 --> 0:36:59.120 lend her any money, but Joan is frivolously spending money 0:36:59.160 --> 0:37:03.319 on other things like a New York City apartment, and 0:37:03.360 --> 0:37:10.040 then off screen, Alfred dies and leaves Joan with a 0:37:10.080 --> 0:37:13.360 bunch of debt. PEPSI tries to fire her from the 0:37:13.400 --> 0:37:17.320 board of directors, but she refuses to leave. She threatens 0:37:17.360 --> 0:37:18.680 them this is the. 0:37:19.120 --> 0:37:22.480 Don't Fuck with Me Fellas, which I'm also pretty sure 0:37:22.600 --> 0:37:23.959 is not how that went down. 0:37:24.239 --> 0:37:27.600 But yeah, I would say like ninety percent of this 0:37:27.680 --> 0:37:31.239 movie is not as Yeah. 0:37:30.880 --> 0:37:33.359 But like another great example of like, she always has 0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:36.520 to be the loudest, most unhinged person in the world, 0:37:36.719 --> 0:37:40.279 at every second of every day, right for however long 0:37:40.360 --> 0:37:42.920 this movie goes on unclear Yeah. 0:37:42.760 --> 0:37:47.839 Yeah, twenty years question mark. More, basically, she bullies them 0:37:48.000 --> 0:37:53.280 into letting her stay on the board. Meanwhile, it seems 0:37:53.400 --> 0:37:58.560 like Joan and Christina are maybe getting along a little better. 0:37:59.200 --> 0:38:02.279 Christina lands apart in a soap opera, but then has 0:38:02.320 --> 0:38:07.160 to take time off after being hospitalized for an ovarian tumor, 0:38:07.960 --> 0:38:11.759 and while Christina is in the hospital, Joan swoops in 0:38:12.120 --> 0:38:15.799 and steals Christina's role on the soap opera, even though 0:38:15.840 --> 0:38:20.560 her character is twenty eight years old and Joan is 0:38:20.600 --> 0:38:22.799 this in her sixties or fifties. 0:38:23.160 --> 0:38:25.320 This did happen, Yeah, this did happen? 0:38:25.840 --> 0:38:29.239 That yeah is wild yeah, if that happens, you of 0:38:29.280 --> 0:38:31.719 course have to include it in Mommy Dearest. I wish 0:38:31.800 --> 0:38:35.680 she saw more of the fallout. I guess that Christina 0:38:35.719 --> 0:38:40.840 in the hospital reaction shot is pretty pretty good. Yeah, 0:38:40.880 --> 0:38:47.080 turn it off. That is that's nuts. That was I 0:38:48.120 --> 0:38:49.600 had never heard about that before. 0:38:50.360 --> 0:38:53.239 Yeah, it's it's wild that she really thought she could 0:38:53.280 --> 0:38:53.960 get away with it. 0:38:54.440 --> 0:38:57.160 But yeah, and that she was like, no, I just 0:38:57.160 --> 0:38:59.040 didn't want Christina to lose the part. 0:38:59.600 --> 0:39:00.680 No, you wanted that. 0:39:01.480 --> 0:39:04.080 I'm not buying it, Joan, I'm not buying it. 0:39:05.200 --> 0:39:08.360 But yeah, like you said, Jamie, there's not really aftermath 0:39:08.480 --> 0:39:13.360 of that, because the next scene is Joan receiving I 0:39:13.360 --> 0:39:17.880 guess like a Lifetime Achievement type award, and Christina accepts 0:39:17.920 --> 0:39:22.359 it on her mother's behalf because Joan is ill. And 0:39:22.480 --> 0:39:26.680 at the end of Christina's speech, she says, I love you, 0:39:26.880 --> 0:39:31.759 mummy dearest, and she's crying, and Joan watching it home, 0:39:31.840 --> 0:39:34.760 is crying and it seems like a very tender moment. 0:39:36.120 --> 0:39:38.520 I don't really know what the takeaway is meant to 0:39:38.520 --> 0:39:43.239 be there. Then we cut to Joan has passed away all. 0:39:43.200 --> 0:39:47.160 Of a sudden, just like cut to corpse Deead The 0:39:47.239 --> 0:39:48.640 jump cuts in this film are. 0:39:48.560 --> 0:39:52.000 Brutal, suge whiplash. It's wild. 0:39:53.120 --> 0:39:56.600 It's like literally straight from like her taking her firing 0:39:56.719 --> 0:40:01.160 on the chin to being like the most insane person 0:40:01.200 --> 0:40:01.840 you've ever seen. 0:40:02.200 --> 0:40:05.120 There's like no no rhyme or reason. 0:40:05.200 --> 0:40:08.480 I'm like, I have to imagine a lot of stuff 0:40:08.520 --> 0:40:11.719 that was shot isn't included, but like there's just no 0:40:11.880 --> 0:40:13.560 gentleness to any transition. 0:40:14.960 --> 0:40:18.120 But she's dead and Christopher's back. Welcome back, Christopher to. 0:40:18.160 --> 0:40:22.000 Christopher's back, played by I didn't look up this actor's name, 0:40:22.000 --> 0:40:24.200 but I was like, I recognize him from something? What 0:40:24.280 --> 0:40:28.600 do I recognize him from? And he plays the foster 0:40:28.840 --> 0:40:31.560 dad of John Connor and Terminator too. 0:40:32.120 --> 0:40:32.799 Whoa wow? 0:40:32.840 --> 0:40:34.600 And that's the only other that's such a poll that 0:40:34.680 --> 0:40:35.200 you remember that. 0:40:35.320 --> 0:40:36.040 It's crazy. 0:40:36.520 --> 0:40:38.680 I mean I've seen that movie one hundred times. 0:40:38.880 --> 0:40:42.239 I love that Xander Berkeley, good name. 0:40:42.560 --> 0:40:49.560 Ye. Anyway, that's Christopher. He and Christina are at the 0:40:49.760 --> 0:40:52.880 wake or funeral or something, but they're but Christina is 0:40:52.920 --> 0:40:57.720 like next to the casket and she's crying and she's saying, 0:40:58.360 --> 0:41:03.600 the pain is final over and then Carol Anne comes. 0:41:03.360 --> 0:41:06.680 In saying Carol Ann suddenly a hundred. 0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:11.880 Yes, She's like your mother always loved you. And Christina 0:41:12.040 --> 0:41:15.400 is like, I need so much to believe that. 0:41:15.600 --> 0:41:17.920 Joan is snatched in her coffin. 0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:22.680 Oh yeah, never looks better. Yeah. 0:41:22.880 --> 0:41:28.440 Then a lawyer reads Joan's will to Christina and Christopher, 0:41:29.600 --> 0:41:35.240 saying that Joan left them nothing. The quote is from Joan. 0:41:35.719 --> 0:41:38.840 It is my intention to make no provisions herein for 0:41:38.960 --> 0:41:42.480 my son Christopher and my daughter Christina, for reasons which 0:41:42.680 --> 0:41:46.920 are well known to them. It is a gut punch, 0:41:47.400 --> 0:41:52.400 and Christopher remarks, as usual, she has the last word, 0:41:52.880 --> 0:41:57.400 and Christina is like, oh does she? Because I'm about 0:41:57.440 --> 0:42:00.759 to write a book about what a horrible her she was. 0:42:01.760 --> 0:42:05.720 The end, the end. So let's take another quick break 0:42:05.760 --> 0:42:19.480 and we'll come right back to discuss. And we're back, 0:42:19.960 --> 0:42:23.160 all right. Where where to begin? Is he that they 0:42:23.160 --> 0:42:25.360 were jumping out to you to? I mean, man, it 0:42:25.400 --> 0:42:26.520 would really be anywhere. 0:42:27.560 --> 0:42:29.359 I mean, I guess what I would say about it. 0:42:29.480 --> 0:42:32.239 Just like, having having made that video about it and 0:42:32.360 --> 0:42:37.200 just observed the response to it, I do think this 0:42:37.360 --> 0:42:41.160 is such a complicated, like deceptively complicated film to talk about, 0:42:41.600 --> 0:42:44.480 because there's so many ways that people react to it 0:42:44.520 --> 0:42:46.560 and all of them I think are valid in a 0:42:46.600 --> 0:42:51.000 way sure, Like my experience through it my primary the 0:42:51.040 --> 0:42:53.120 way that I react to it is through the camp lens, 0:42:53.120 --> 0:42:55.560 where I see it as very over the top. It 0:42:55.600 --> 0:42:59.200 does make me laugh, I can't help it. But there 0:42:59.200 --> 0:43:02.560 are other people who see it as like legitimately terrifying abuse. 0:43:03.160 --> 0:43:06.359 There are other people who can't even stand the mention 0:43:06.480 --> 0:43:10.400 of this film because they feel it besmirches Joan Crawford's memory. 0:43:11.400 --> 0:43:15.759 There are people who believe word for word what Christina 0:43:15.800 --> 0:43:19.320 claims happened to her, and it just becomes this really 0:43:19.360 --> 0:43:22.279 strange rarshack test. I guess of like where people are 0:43:22.360 --> 0:43:25.640 landing and thinking about like abuse and legacy and all 0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:28.560 of these things coming together at once, And I think 0:43:28.840 --> 0:43:32.600 like that is very difficult territory to tread in because 0:43:32.640 --> 0:43:35.319 on the like, you want to give people grace, but 0:43:35.640 --> 0:43:40.040 I think it devolves very quickly into like a morality competition. 0:43:40.320 --> 0:43:42.480 It's just like who are we believing. 0:43:42.040 --> 0:43:43.920 And why and all of these things that are just 0:43:43.960 --> 0:43:47.160 so difficult that we can never really answer. So I 0:43:47.200 --> 0:43:49.200 guess like I would just acknowledge that off the bat, 0:43:49.200 --> 0:43:51.920 which is like if anyone hears my take or like 0:43:52.000 --> 0:43:55.640 our take and is just appalled by Like that's fine. 0:43:56.160 --> 0:43:57.920 I think there's a lot of ways to react to. 0:43:57.880 --> 0:44:02.520 This, right, Absolutely, It's into such tricky territory when it 0:44:02.560 --> 0:44:06.600 comes to who do we believe and what is to 0:44:06.680 --> 0:44:10.760 be believed because it's this is based on a book 0:44:10.800 --> 0:44:14.400 which is based on a real life account of someone 0:44:14.680 --> 0:44:19.160 experiencing abuse, which you should believe if someone says I 0:44:19.320 --> 0:44:24.759 was abused, but especially with a film adaptation, where some 0:44:24.840 --> 0:44:29.479 things are likely embellished, some things are likely sensationalized because 0:44:29.560 --> 0:44:34.160 that's what like Hollywood studio movies tend to do. It's 0:44:34.239 --> 0:44:38.840 just it gets into such murky territory, very tricky. Yeah, 0:44:38.960 --> 0:44:40.600 I totally agree that. 0:44:40.640 --> 0:44:44.520 It's like there's no it's like not a productive discussion to. 0:44:44.480 --> 0:44:45.960 Like break down like well what do we believe in? 0:44:45.960 --> 0:44:47.920 What do we because we'll just never know, yah know 0:44:48.080 --> 0:44:48.399 for sure. 0:44:48.480 --> 0:44:48.680 Yeah. 0:44:48.760 --> 0:44:52.399 But what is interesting is like tracking their reaction and 0:44:52.520 --> 0:44:56.279 like and I guess like where this movie's priorities ultimately 0:44:56.560 --> 0:44:59.640 like lie and how that sort of seems to have 0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:01.760 changed over time. 0:45:02.760 --> 0:45:03.600 Yeah, I was. 0:45:03.880 --> 0:45:07.040 Thinking about because it I don't know, it's it was interesting, 0:45:07.080 --> 0:45:09.759 Like I was just like digging around on Reddit at 0:45:09.760 --> 0:45:12.080 two am last night because. 0:45:11.880 --> 0:45:14.720 People still talk about this movie a lot. Yeah, and 0:45:15.400 --> 0:45:17.000 just seeing like you're saying. 0:45:16.880 --> 0:45:20.200 Is he such a wide Like it's because it's a 0:45:20.200 --> 0:45:24.040 movie about first being abused as a child, second about 0:45:24.480 --> 0:45:27.839 having a mother, like of course, and that you can't 0:45:27.920 --> 0:45:30.759 notot have a personal reaction to it. But you know, 0:45:30.840 --> 0:45:34.600 here like reading accounts of kids that were like, I 0:45:34.640 --> 0:45:37.160 really connected with this movie because my you know, it's 0:45:37.160 --> 0:45:41.880 super over the top, but I experienced something similar and whatever. 0:45:41.920 --> 0:45:44.040 It's not perfect, but I didn't see it anywhere else. 0:45:44.320 --> 0:45:49.120 And then there's the you know, huge camp following and 0:45:49.200 --> 0:45:53.040 the queer embrace of this movie. And I still really 0:45:53.080 --> 0:45:55.160 want to go to a screening of it, Like you 0:45:55.239 --> 0:45:57.520 got a common New York City head of Lettuce does 0:45:58.239 --> 0:46:01.400 talk back screenings or she'll she'll talk during the screening 0:46:01.440 --> 0:46:03.080 and like point things out with laser pointer. 0:46:03.160 --> 0:46:06.600 It's really funny. I highly recommend if you're ever around 0:46:06.600 --> 0:46:06.879 for that. 0:46:07.200 --> 0:46:09.960 I would love to, Like, I don't I don't know 0:46:10.000 --> 0:46:12.600 if I've ever seen an LA proper screening of it. 0:46:13.719 --> 0:46:16.560 Like it's just yeah, like every reading of this is valid. 0:46:16.600 --> 0:46:19.120 I was also reminded of there's a recent video essay 0:46:19.160 --> 0:46:23.960 from Sarah z about sort of trauma memoirs and like 0:46:24.080 --> 0:46:27.359 their sort of history, and this is an example of that. 0:46:27.400 --> 0:46:29.680 And I don't mean to sound dismissive in saying that, 0:46:29.880 --> 0:46:36.000 but just in how those works are marketed and monetized, 0:46:36.120 --> 0:46:40.239 like follows a very specific pattern, and that like I 0:46:40.280 --> 0:46:42.759 think part of the reason it's like almost impossible to 0:46:42.800 --> 0:46:47.000 talk about is because of the time it was written 0:46:47.280 --> 0:46:50.319 and released too, where like the way that abuse was 0:46:50.480 --> 0:46:54.760 discussed and received in the public, specifically like maternal abuse, 0:46:55.280 --> 0:46:58.800 like it was just a completely different landscape, and I 0:46:58.840 --> 0:47:01.880 feel like there was just like a lower cultural understanding 0:47:02.000 --> 0:47:07.920 or tolerance for understanding what maternal abuse could look like 0:47:07.960 --> 0:47:10.640 it sounds it. I didn't go super deep on it, 0:47:10.680 --> 0:47:15.520 but like this book was both very successful and widely 0:47:15.600 --> 0:47:20.879 dismissed as exploited it, like exploiting her mother's memory, as 0:47:21.040 --> 0:47:24.799 being like trashy, as being even like as far as 0:47:24.840 --> 0:47:28.440 as far as like saying that she's ungrateful, like all 0:47:28.480 --> 0:47:33.600 of these really blamey narratives that like don't don't serve anything, 0:47:33.640 --> 0:47:36.520 And I think would be really unusual to see in 0:47:36.560 --> 0:47:38.959 a similar book published now. 0:47:39.800 --> 0:47:41.560 Yeah, I mean if you think about it too, like 0:47:42.520 --> 0:47:45.960 Joan Crawford. Speaking of the timing, Joan Crawford died in 0:47:46.040 --> 0:47:49.840 nineteen seventy seven, so she died this is a very 0:47:49.920 --> 0:47:53.359 freshly made film, like after her death, when there would 0:47:53.360 --> 0:47:56.000 presumably still be a lot of affection for her. If 0:47:56.000 --> 0:47:58.640 we think about like when Joan Crawford was peaking, this 0:47:58.800 --> 0:48:03.920 was in the nineteen forties, let's say, like early nineteen forties. 0:48:03.960 --> 0:48:06.400 So imagine like somebody who is really big in the 0:48:06.480 --> 0:48:11.120 nineties died and the next year we find out like 0:48:12.120 --> 0:48:16.040 they were actually very different than we presumed, Like of 0:48:16.080 --> 0:48:18.719 course you would see some I think defensiveness. I think 0:48:18.840 --> 0:48:21.640 is part of the the reception to this film as well, 0:48:21.920 --> 0:48:26.480 trying to understand and reconcile how your kind of parasocial 0:48:26.560 --> 0:48:31.640 relationship with this movie star is challenged by like what 0:48:31.680 --> 0:48:34.520 we're discovering. And I think you do have to take 0:48:34.680 --> 0:48:38.560 that kind of sentiment into account when I certainly feel 0:48:38.600 --> 0:48:41.000 that myself, like I have to check myself and be 0:48:41.080 --> 0:48:44.040 like how much of how much of my beliefs or 0:48:44.320 --> 0:48:48.319 like dismissals of Christina, you know, have to do with 0:48:48.400 --> 0:48:51.400 the fact that Joan Crawford is an important actress to me, 0:48:51.719 --> 0:48:53.759 you know what I mean? Like, I think that's you 0:48:53.880 --> 0:48:56.080 have to take that into account when you're thinking about 0:48:56.080 --> 0:48:57.640 this kind of stuff totally. 0:48:57.719 --> 0:49:01.239 I mean, it's I'm you know, it's extremely complicated. I'm 0:49:01.520 --> 0:49:04.920 generally inclined to I mean, Christina Crawford appears to have 0:49:05.239 --> 0:49:06.120 been pretty. 0:49:05.840 --> 0:49:08.720 Consistent on what she's said. 0:49:09.200 --> 0:49:12.440 Not everyone likes the way she said it or the 0:49:12.600 --> 0:49:14.960 amount of time she said it, but it seems like 0:49:15.040 --> 0:49:17.160 Christina and Christopher have been pretty consistent. 0:49:17.239 --> 0:49:20.200 And I guess that's the last I'll say about it, 0:49:20.200 --> 0:49:21.120 but it does. 0:49:22.000 --> 0:49:24.520 I mean, like the fact that this book was written 0:49:24.880 --> 0:49:30.319 so soon after her mother's death, Like it's like a 0:49:30.440 --> 0:49:35.120 really raw book. I can't imagine having to promote this 0:49:35.200 --> 0:49:39.879 book while you're still like kind of processing the fact 0:49:39.960 --> 0:49:43.279 that she's got like whatever. I don't know how many 0:49:43.280 --> 0:49:45.399 people have had an experience like that. But I think 0:49:45.440 --> 0:49:48.200 also about like the power dynamic of it right where 0:49:48.239 --> 0:49:52.600 it's like she is, Christina Crawford is essentially an unknown, 0:49:52.760 --> 0:49:55.240 like she was on a couple of soaps. Like you're saying, 0:49:55.320 --> 0:49:58.520 is like really challenging this carefully this image that was 0:49:58.560 --> 0:50:02.080 carefully constructed over the course of like fifty years. And 0:50:02.120 --> 0:50:05.319 then yeah, and like how she's sort of starting at 0:50:05.320 --> 0:50:08.920 a it's a difficult hill to climb to, you know, 0:50:08.960 --> 0:50:14.080 even if she's being one hundred percent honest, because I 0:50:14.080 --> 0:50:16.600 don't know, like your average reader, you're not going to 0:50:16.640 --> 0:50:19.560 be inclined to sympathize with her because you don't know 0:50:19.760 --> 0:50:24.160 who she is. Yeah, which is like not a pleasant thing. 0:50:24.280 --> 0:50:27.160 But that's just like sort of how people work. Like 0:50:27.200 --> 0:50:29.640 you don't want to believe the worst in this person 0:50:29.680 --> 0:50:30.560 that you grew up with. 0:50:30.680 --> 0:50:34.080 But I think it's also really easy on the other 0:50:34.239 --> 0:50:36.640 side of that, It's it's really easy to like quickly 0:50:36.680 --> 0:50:41.640 demonize a bad mother. Yes, like culture kind of Gidaly 0:50:42.160 --> 0:50:45.439 wants to blame every woman. It's like, are you doing 0:50:45.520 --> 0:50:49.279 formula or like breastfed? Like that'll get you demonized, you know, 0:50:49.960 --> 0:50:52.520 Like then that's the least of it. It's like, so 0:50:52.680 --> 0:50:55.960 to find out that this perfect woman was apparently some 0:50:56.160 --> 0:51:01.640 hysterical monster, it's like just ripe for kind of dismissing 0:51:01.880 --> 0:51:06.120 or just completely reshaping her as a cultural figure and 0:51:06.280 --> 0:51:07.640 her cultural legacy as well. 0:51:08.680 --> 0:51:11.000 Right in a way that like you're saying, like does 0:51:11.040 --> 0:51:18.000 a disservice to definitely Christina, but also Joan and what 0:51:18.120 --> 0:51:21.920 the movie seems like it wants to do but ultimately 0:51:22.680 --> 0:51:26.040 doesn't because in the chunk of the original book that 0:51:26.280 --> 0:51:29.360 I read, because this movie takes place in this like 0:51:29.440 --> 0:51:34.000 weird contextless void kind of of like what Joan Crawford's 0:51:34.000 --> 0:51:39.280 life was actually like prior to the movie starting. Christina 0:51:39.400 --> 0:51:42.680 is like acknowledging pretty consistently in the book and like 0:51:43.000 --> 0:51:46.120 including those I think like necessary benchmarks of like this 0:51:46.160 --> 0:51:47.719 is where she was at in her career, this is 0:51:47.760 --> 0:51:51.840 the way that she felt about it, and also that 0:51:52.480 --> 0:51:55.520 and I don't remember if it's like maybe sort of 0:51:55.600 --> 0:51:58.440 mentioned offhand once or twice in the movie, but that 0:51:58.560 --> 0:52:02.720 like Joan Crawford was the product of a very broken 0:52:03.040 --> 0:52:05.960 home as well, and like grew up in extreme poverty 0:52:06.160 --> 0:52:09.600 and had all of these traumatic experiences growing up. So 0:52:09.680 --> 0:52:13.600 there's like a psycholopopous narrative that Christina doesn't seem to 0:52:13.600 --> 0:52:16.200 be shying away from in her book, but the movie 0:52:16.400 --> 0:52:19.359 like doesn't even really attempt to get into because it's 0:52:19.360 --> 0:52:21.520 more fun if Joan is just evil, Right. 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:24.560 There's one or two lines where Joan will say, like 0:52:24.840 --> 0:52:28.520 I had to do a work scholarship program too, but 0:52:28.640 --> 0:52:29.879 we we don't know the. 0:52:29.840 --> 0:52:32.279 Exciting what do you mean by like her backstory. 0:52:31.880 --> 0:52:34.279 Well, it just it sounds like that thing where like. 0:52:34.200 --> 0:52:37.120 Your grandpa is like I walked three miles to school 0:52:37.320 --> 0:52:39.920 and you like just don't really it's like okay, grandpa, 0:52:40.040 --> 0:52:43.320 you know, And it's not like that's not the reality 0:52:43.360 --> 0:52:45.200 of what she was going through, you know. 0:52:45.400 --> 0:52:46.319 And so it's sort of. 0:52:46.480 --> 0:52:49.960 Exactly like you said, it's not it's not a serious 0:52:50.040 --> 0:52:54.080 exploration of the way that trauma cycles. And ultimately, like 0:52:54.239 --> 0:52:58.040 the thesis of this film is, isn't she a crazy bitch? 0:52:58.440 --> 0:52:58.760 Yeah? 0:52:58.800 --> 0:53:03.279 And that's that's like sad to me because it doesn't 0:53:03.480 --> 0:53:06.640 say anything really about like what abuse is or what 0:53:06.680 --> 0:53:09.200 it means or how it comes about. It doesn't do 0:53:09.640 --> 0:53:12.440 Christina any favors because it's not from her perspective. But 0:53:12.480 --> 0:53:15.600 then it also just completely tears down Joan. Not to 0:53:15.600 --> 0:53:18.120 say that there's a way to excuse abuse, but to 0:53:18.239 --> 0:53:22.240 understand how it arises is I think valuable and maybe 0:53:22.280 --> 0:53:25.640 like at least giving a little sympathy to this person. 0:53:27.760 --> 0:53:31.719 I feel like two of the truths, and there are 0:53:31.920 --> 0:53:34.560 I'm sure more you can hold for this movie, but 0:53:34.600 --> 0:53:38.640 at least two of them are that there's an abusive 0:53:38.800 --> 0:53:48.239 parent situation happening, and movies and society love to demonize 0:53:48.239 --> 0:53:51.480 women and make them seem nuts. Because I feel like 0:53:51.520 --> 0:53:56.080 this movie is in conversation with movies like Sunset Boulevard 0:53:56.280 --> 0:53:58.560 and Whatever Happened to Baby Jane in the sense that 0:53:58.640 --> 0:54:03.239 it's like, look at these washed up aging actors that 0:54:03.680 --> 0:54:08.960 have gone hysterical, and you know, some of the like 0:54:09.200 --> 0:54:15.520 exploitation movies of this nature do a better job of contextualizing, well, 0:54:15.560 --> 0:54:19.040 why would an aging woman, especially in an industry like 0:54:19.080 --> 0:54:26.960 Hollywood be so concerned about her appearance or her legacy. 0:54:26.920 --> 0:54:29.000 Or how she's perceived as a mother too. 0:54:29.640 --> 0:54:34.720 For sure, but with this movie, it mostly just seems 0:54:34.800 --> 0:54:42.120 hell bent on like look, how fucking nuts this woman 0:54:42.600 --> 0:54:44.800 is a mess? 0:54:44.840 --> 0:54:46.640 I mean, yeah, there are ways that we were talking 0:54:46.640 --> 0:54:49.480 about this from like moment one of the movie where 0:54:49.640 --> 0:54:52.799 like the ice however drug craff are taking the ice 0:54:52.800 --> 0:54:58.240 bucket challenge, but like her complicated morning routine, like there's. 0:54:59.480 --> 0:55:00.319 It's not again. 0:55:00.480 --> 0:55:02.440 Nothing in this movie is subtle, but like the ways 0:55:02.440 --> 0:55:06.799 that it's telegraphed that she is unwell is so all 0:55:06.800 --> 0:55:09.399 over the place, because it can be as extreme as 0:55:09.640 --> 0:55:14.520 overt physical extreme abuse, and this is sort of presented 0:55:14.520 --> 0:55:17.319 on the same plane as like being very conscious of 0:55:17.360 --> 0:55:20.520 what she looks like, which we understand is because that 0:55:20.680 --> 0:55:25.360 is like what her living hinges on the way they. 0:55:24.920 --> 0:55:28.799 When she's jogging, Oh yes, all the way Fae Done 0:55:28.800 --> 0:55:31.560 Away jogs makes me laugh so that she's like punching 0:55:31.560 --> 0:55:36.719 the air. Her form is wild hilarious, yes, but it's 0:55:36.719 --> 0:55:40.920 like it's like she kind of yes, sweating through sweats 0:55:41.000 --> 0:55:44.160 is in la. That's crazy the way she kind of 0:55:44.239 --> 0:55:47.600 snaps and like starts off in a sprint like she's like, 0:55:47.719 --> 0:55:50.960 I'm the biggest star he's ever headgotten dammit that she 0:55:51.080 --> 0:55:55.120 just starts like sprinting as what is she repeating to herself? 0:55:55.160 --> 0:55:57.160 She's like, I don't know if it's something like I'm 0:55:57.200 --> 0:55:59.560 a winner, I'm a winner. I will Yeah, I forget 0:55:59.560 --> 0:56:00.239 what it is, but. 0:56:00.280 --> 0:56:01.120 I wrote it down. 0:56:01.239 --> 0:56:05.560 Yeah, it's she's she's doing she's doing a very like 0:56:05.600 --> 0:56:09.120 cursed affirmation, right, And it's. 0:56:09.040 --> 0:56:14.480 Just I have such trouble imagining even a person as 0:56:14.520 --> 0:56:17.760 extreme in personality and Joan as Joan Crawford doing something 0:56:17.920 --> 0:56:20.520 like that right in the way that it does become 0:56:21.200 --> 0:56:23.799 it leads into that camp territory of being you know, 0:56:24.200 --> 0:56:27.840 quote unquote Joan you know, yeah, yeah, totally. 0:56:28.000 --> 0:56:32.600 Well, I it's it's really interesting reading. There's another if 0:56:32.600 --> 0:56:34.680 there's a book about this that came out a couple 0:56:34.719 --> 0:56:37.359 of years ago called We Love Mommy Dearist by a 0:56:37.360 --> 0:56:44.719 Ashley Hoff, which I did some rapid libby scanning in 0:56:45.120 --> 0:56:50.480 preparation for this. But just like pulling from how and 0:56:50.719 --> 0:56:52.440 you talk about this in your video as well as 0:56:52.480 --> 0:56:56.040 you of like how you know, John Waters said that 0:56:56.440 --> 0:57:00.239 this was the first drag performance of a woman by 0:57:00.280 --> 0:57:04.480 a woman, and that this is you know, I think 0:57:04.520 --> 0:57:07.960 that it weirdly feels like and again we can't know 0:57:08.000 --> 0:57:10.480 if it's intentional or not, but the fact that she 0:57:10.600 --> 0:57:14.080 looks physically the same the whole movie that covers twenty 0:57:14.160 --> 0:57:17.040 years where it's like this isn't this is like, that's 0:57:17.040 --> 0:57:19.400 a clear indication that that is like not supposed to 0:57:19.440 --> 0:57:23.440 be actual Joan Crawford. It's like the idea, like the 0:57:23.480 --> 0:57:29.280 salacious idea of these you know, secretly evil Joan Crawford. 0:57:30.040 --> 0:57:33.400 Yeah, yeah, and you touch on this in your video 0:57:33.520 --> 0:57:38.240 as well, but that Faye Dunaway wanted to be involved 0:57:38.880 --> 0:57:43.320 and play Joan Crawford because she wanted to humanize her 0:57:44.160 --> 0:57:50.000 partly because she felt so much kinship with Joan Crawford. 0:57:50.560 --> 0:57:53.760 And you know, after all these drafts of the script 0:57:53.880 --> 0:57:57.680 and it finally went into production and the filmmakers thought 0:57:57.720 --> 0:58:02.360 they were making this serious film about child abuse. 0:58:02.640 --> 0:58:06.800 But it becomes more about Joan than Christina very quickly, 0:58:06.840 --> 0:58:10.200 it seems, for sure, because that's what sells. Like, no 0:58:10.240 --> 0:58:12.320 one knows who Christina is, so she's always going to 0:58:12.320 --> 0:58:13.320 be at a disadvantage. 0:58:14.160 --> 0:58:17.920 And I feel like, I mean, also speaking to sorry 0:58:17.960 --> 0:58:21.800 to just regurgitate your video back at you. But I 0:58:21.880 --> 0:58:25.800 learned so much. It seems like critics of both the 0:58:25.920 --> 0:58:30.560 film and the book were like, well, there's kind of 0:58:30.600 --> 0:58:38.000 no attempt to contextualize why Joan Crawford was behaving the 0:58:38.040 --> 0:58:41.840 way she was. There's no attempt to sort of understand 0:58:41.880 --> 0:58:43.760 what was going on, which. 0:58:43.600 --> 0:58:46.320 I kind of disagree with. Based on even the short 0:58:46.360 --> 0:58:49.400 section of the book I read, I thought that Christina 0:58:49.600 --> 0:58:52.840 was like, I don't know, I mean, especially if we're 0:58:53.040 --> 0:58:57.200 grading on a curve for mother very recently died. I 0:58:57.200 --> 0:59:00.400 thought that she was going out of her way to 0:59:00.400 --> 0:59:04.240 contextualize the story of Joan's life as Joan told it 0:59:04.360 --> 0:59:07.560 to her, Like I don't know, I think I get 0:59:07.640 --> 0:59:10.560 kind of like antsy around criticisms like that too, where 0:59:10.600 --> 0:59:14.280 it's like she that it's the responsibility of one person 0:59:14.440 --> 0:59:17.840 to completely give full context for someone they are alleging 0:59:17.920 --> 0:59:20.880 was extremely abusive to them. But even with that in mind, 0:59:20.920 --> 0:59:23.840 I think that she does do Like I wonder what 0:59:23.920 --> 0:59:30.960 would have constituted enough, like if not complete forgiveness or something. 0:59:31.080 --> 0:59:31.480 I don't know. 0:59:32.040 --> 0:59:34.880 Yeah, it's so tough because I agree with you. It's like, 0:59:35.040 --> 0:59:38.600 why is it my responsibility to give context to my 0:59:38.720 --> 0:59:42.960 abuser humanize my abuseif Like, I think it goes back 0:59:43.000 --> 0:59:44.800 to kind of what I was talking about before, where 0:59:45.520 --> 0:59:48.880 we're dealing with a very personal relationship that is being 0:59:48.920 --> 0:59:53.640 told in the context of like a societally parasocial relationship. Yeah, 0:59:53.680 --> 0:59:56.520 so it's sort of like you're coming to us with 0:59:56.560 --> 0:59:58.640 this information about someone that we feel like we know, 0:59:59.120 --> 1:00:01.880 and so what do we need as an audience to 1:00:03.000 --> 1:00:05.880 make sense of this? And so like, no, it isn't 1:00:05.880 --> 1:00:09.480 her responsibility, but I also think it probably would have 1:00:09.560 --> 1:00:13.320 been a better told story if that world building did 1:00:13.400 --> 1:00:16.919 exist to kind of understand who either of these people are, 1:00:17.000 --> 1:00:19.320 because we don't really like, yeah, as we kind of 1:00:19.400 --> 1:00:21.640 keep saying is like, I don't really know anything about 1:00:21.720 --> 1:00:25.560 Christina either, tell me one thing other than that she 1:00:25.640 --> 1:00:27.720 wanted to act and we don't know why other than 1:00:28.080 --> 1:00:30.320 like that her mother did it. Maybe that's all she knew. 1:00:30.600 --> 1:00:34.120 Maybe she was never interested in anything else. Like there's 1:00:34.200 --> 1:00:35.160 a lot of conjecture. 1:00:35.320 --> 1:00:37.760 I mean, she had a pretty interesting life. Yeah, it's 1:00:37.760 --> 1:00:40.600 like it's it doesn't really do very much to I mean, well, 1:00:40.800 --> 1:00:42.680 whatever she goes on to have like an interesting life 1:00:42.720 --> 1:00:45.360 after this and like works as an entertainment lawyer. She 1:00:45.440 --> 1:00:49.280 worked on the Clinton campaign in ninety two, Not that 1:00:49.320 --> 1:00:51.640 they could have known that then, but whatever, when to 1:00:51.680 --> 1:00:54.480 have on when to have a whole life. But I 1:00:54.560 --> 1:00:57.680 mean all loved to Diana Scarwood. But I feel like this, 1:00:57.920 --> 1:01:01.320 like I don't know, Christina doesn't seem to have a 1:01:01.360 --> 1:01:05.720 lot of like personality or there's just not much for 1:01:05.800 --> 1:01:08.720 you to like hold on to in a movie that's 1:01:08.760 --> 1:01:11.000 like almost allegedly she's supposed to be the co lead of, 1:01:11.200 --> 1:01:13.120 but she's not even credited as the co lead. It 1:01:13.120 --> 1:01:16.240 seems like Greg is second built, which is wild. 1:01:16.400 --> 1:01:17.800 Yeah, which is so weird. 1:01:18.960 --> 1:01:19.920 Yeah, I don't know. 1:01:20.240 --> 1:01:23.520 I it's impossible to unpack in the space of a 1:01:23.520 --> 1:01:26.840 single back to cast episode, but I it does like 1:01:26.960 --> 1:01:30.240 the way that abuse and like specifically maternal abuse is 1:01:30.360 --> 1:01:33.480 like talked about and shown to us like over time 1:01:33.680 --> 1:01:38.600 is so interesting and does still fall into like I 1:01:38.600 --> 1:01:41.760 think your sympathies are always going to You're going to 1:01:41.760 --> 1:01:45.439 be encouraged to sympathize with whoever was the more well 1:01:45.480 --> 1:01:52.120 known or powerful person culturally in that relationship. And having 1:01:52.520 --> 1:01:56.600 read Jeanett mccurty's memoir, which is wonderful and also a 1:01:57.000 --> 1:02:01.200 very like personal story of maternal abuse. First of all, 1:02:01.200 --> 1:02:05.280 it's coming out over forty years after Mommy Dearest and 1:02:05.440 --> 1:02:09.120 is extremely and like rightfully well received, and I think 1:02:09.160 --> 1:02:13.760 it's being adapted into a movie or TV show, And 1:02:13.840 --> 1:02:16.760 I think that you know, Jeanette McCurdy is the narrator 1:02:16.920 --> 1:02:20.200 and the well known person, which I think for readers 1:02:20.240 --> 1:02:23.680 it's easier to say I believe her based on how 1:02:23.720 --> 1:02:28.240 we're like trained to believe people and Christina, so in 1:02:28.280 --> 1:02:30.960 that way, it's like it's not surprising to know that 1:02:31.040 --> 1:02:34.040 like Christina was having a hard time from the jump, 1:02:34.320 --> 1:02:38.800 regardless of the veracity of the allegations because she's not 1:02:38.960 --> 1:02:43.080 the known person, and like Joan I don't know. It's 1:02:43.120 --> 1:02:46.280 interesting seeing how she talks about it now too. She's 1:02:46.320 --> 1:02:50.000 also still alive, she's in her eighties. In like twenty nineteen, 1:02:50.080 --> 1:02:53.520 she was trying to stage a musical of Mommy Dearest. 1:02:53.600 --> 1:02:55.760 Question mark, Oh, I don't know. 1:02:55.680 --> 1:02:56.520 How I feel about that. 1:02:57.120 --> 1:03:00.240 No, I would up the camp factor even more, would 1:03:00.280 --> 1:03:01.640 imagine for sure. 1:03:02.000 --> 1:03:04.480 Yeah, it seems like she came around to accepting that 1:03:04.560 --> 1:03:08.760 it was camp. But someone asked her if she thought, 1:03:09.080 --> 1:03:13.280 like what she thought Joan would think about Mommy Dari's, 1:03:13.320 --> 1:03:16.439 just like the phenomenon in general, and I just thought 1:03:16.440 --> 1:03:19.880 her answer was very interesting. She basically says that she 1:03:20.040 --> 1:03:24.360 thinks that like whatever, Joan was like shrewd and understood 1:03:24.800 --> 1:03:28.080 how to play into cultural narratives, and like she didn't. 1:03:28.840 --> 1:03:31.320 She thinks that Joan would be showing up at Mommy 1:03:31.360 --> 1:03:35.439 Dari's screenings and being like, huh I get it totally, yeah, 1:03:35.640 --> 1:03:38.000 and then like freaking out about it behind the scenes. 1:03:38.800 --> 1:03:41.400 I mean that would have been my personal hypothesis as well, 1:03:42.880 --> 1:03:45.960 because yeah, she was incredibly smart, and that's what I 1:03:46.000 --> 1:03:50.040 think is So, I don't know, interesting about this too, 1:03:50.040 --> 1:03:53.120 and the way it kind of frames Joan. I think 1:03:53.160 --> 1:03:55.120 you're right. Like, I think it's really interesting too what 1:03:55.160 --> 1:03:57.760 you're saying about how we're kind of more primed to 1:03:57.840 --> 1:04:01.960 be sympathetic toward the person we know more because I 1:04:01.960 --> 1:04:05.240 think like this narrative of abuse is also competing against 1:04:05.240 --> 1:04:08.320 a very well known narrative abuse of abuse, which is 1:04:08.400 --> 1:04:11.800 like the abuse of the studio system specifically. So it's 1:04:11.880 --> 1:04:15.680 like we know just kind of anecdotally from like every 1:04:15.760 --> 1:04:19.800 actress that went through that was being you know, drugged 1:04:19.960 --> 1:04:23.960 or like not given food or you know, sexually assaulted, 1:04:24.080 --> 1:04:26.440 like all of these things that they would have experienced 1:04:26.480 --> 1:04:28.760 on a day to day basis. And so it's like 1:04:28.800 --> 1:04:32.080 we have already done a lot of work to gin 1:04:32.240 --> 1:04:34.640 up a lot of sympathy and like understanding of that 1:04:34.760 --> 1:04:37.880 kind of abuse, that kind of systemic abuse that Joan 1:04:37.920 --> 1:04:40.600 would have been suffering, and so now to have like 1:04:40.960 --> 1:04:45.680 a competing narrative that shows her like in a kind 1:04:45.680 --> 1:04:49.840 of monstrance light. But also I think as part of 1:04:49.880 --> 1:04:54.040 that conversation about the way that abuse cycles is really 1:04:54.320 --> 1:04:57.560 interesting to me and how those kind of compete with 1:04:57.600 --> 1:05:00.400 each other, especially from someone like Joan, who you know, 1:05:00.480 --> 1:05:02.800 a lot of these women who were famous during that 1:05:02.840 --> 1:05:06.040 time were not they didn't come from good places, like 1:05:06.120 --> 1:05:09.640 they were working up from extreme poverty in many cases, 1:05:10.160 --> 1:05:12.320 and in the cases of someone like Joan, like they 1:05:12.320 --> 1:05:16.040 weren't parented. So they were kind of the first generation 1:05:16.160 --> 1:05:19.560 of these like ultra famous career women who had no 1:05:19.680 --> 1:05:22.120 experience of what that kind of fame would look like, 1:05:22.760 --> 1:05:26.880 put on a you know, pedestal that like they were 1:05:26.960 --> 1:05:29.800 terrified to fall off of. So I think like the 1:05:29.840 --> 1:05:31.960 whole context is like you're just not being set up 1:05:31.960 --> 1:05:35.560 to succeed at all with your personal life, and then 1:05:35.600 --> 1:05:37.920 you have society breathing down your neck to have children 1:05:38.000 --> 1:05:40.080 when like by rights, many of them like probably didn't 1:05:40.080 --> 1:05:43.840 actually want to, Like we know that story. That story 1:05:43.880 --> 1:05:45.720 is very familiar, and so it's hard to kind of 1:05:45.880 --> 1:05:48.120 like further complicate that as you're saying. 1:05:48.240 --> 1:05:50.320 Yeah, and it's like so much just left on the 1:05:50.360 --> 1:05:53.200 table when you cause, I mean, even you describing those 1:05:53.200 --> 1:05:56.280 two competing narratives of abuse, it's like in a very 1:05:56.320 --> 1:05:57.000 different movie. 1:05:57.080 --> 1:06:01.640 It's like, oh, it's like they're so close to. 1:06:01.640 --> 1:06:06.040 Being able to connect how whatever in conversation, those cycles 1:06:06.040 --> 1:06:10.920 of abuse are where I again this is from mommy, dearist, 1:06:11.000 --> 1:06:13.400 and I did not do any sort of further background 1:06:13.480 --> 1:06:17.080 on this, but I guess per Joan telling Christina in 1:06:17.280 --> 1:06:21.040 Mommy dearis that there's like another bizarre layer too, like 1:06:21.120 --> 1:06:28.080 why Joan did not have children in earlier marriages. Her 1:06:28.120 --> 1:06:31.480 first husband was Douglas Fairbanks junior, as you mentioned Izzy, 1:06:31.800 --> 1:06:36.520 whose mother was Mary Pickford, and there was a narrative 1:06:36.560 --> 1:06:39.640 that Joan shared that she did get pregnant but was 1:06:39.680 --> 1:06:42.680 told to have abortions because Mary Pickford didn't want to 1:06:42.720 --> 1:06:46.280 be perceived as a grandmother. So it's another like agist 1:06:46.600 --> 1:06:49.320 Hollywood narrative that like the cycle of abuse is like 1:06:49.360 --> 1:06:53.240 trickling down, so that she wanted children earlier but wasn't 1:06:53.480 --> 1:06:56.640 allowed to have them because it would make a different 1:06:56.720 --> 1:07:00.640 I mean, an older actress experienced the savings that Joan 1:07:00.640 --> 1:07:02.880 eventually experiences of like appearing old. 1:07:03.200 --> 1:07:06.280 Absolutely, I mean the politics of motherhood for that generation 1:07:06.320 --> 1:07:10.000 of women is extremely complex and like scary to think 1:07:10.000 --> 1:07:13.680 about because the studio was like in many cases, for example, 1:07:13.760 --> 1:07:16.560 Judy Garland was mandated to have an abortion by the studio. 1:07:17.200 --> 1:07:22.280 Many of them experienced abortions at young ages that rendered 1:07:22.280 --> 1:07:26.240 them barren basically or unable to have children. Two of 1:07:26.480 --> 1:07:29.600 Joan Crawford's best friends were like that Barbara Sama couldn't 1:07:29.600 --> 1:07:32.240 have children because of an abortion, Marta Lloyd couldn't have 1:07:32.320 --> 1:07:34.919 children because of an abortion. These are all, of course 1:07:34.960 --> 1:07:40.160 back alley performances of abortion. And then the studio is like, 1:07:40.720 --> 1:07:45.200 you can't have children at this age or with this person, 1:07:46.280 --> 1:07:49.640 so you have to have these procedures, or once you have, 1:07:49.720 --> 1:07:51.800 when you'll look too old, so that changes the cut 1:07:51.880 --> 1:07:54.840 things we can give you. Like it's all so timed 1:07:54.840 --> 1:07:58.800 out and bizarre and you have no choice at all, 1:07:59.480 --> 1:08:01.680 and it's ter fine to think about. Yeah, and then 1:08:01.720 --> 1:08:05.400 the flip side of that, or just a different branch 1:08:05.480 --> 1:08:11.480 of that misogyny is because Joan cannot have children of 1:08:11.520 --> 1:08:15.480 her own and chooses to adopt, but as we touched 1:08:15.520 --> 1:08:20.440 on a little bit, already can't because of these incredibly 1:08:21.200 --> 1:08:25.439 misogynistic standards for oh, you're a woman with a job. 1:08:26.479 --> 1:08:28.920 Oh you're not married and there's no father, so you 1:08:28.960 --> 1:08:32.280 can't have a nuclear family unit like all these like. 1:08:32.320 --> 1:08:35.000 Legally either like, yeah, you cannot win. 1:08:36.600 --> 1:08:39.040 Yeah, I had no idea because again the movie does 1:08:39.080 --> 1:08:41.800 not make it clear that there was like a mafia 1:08:41.960 --> 1:08:44.320 component to her adopting these children. 1:08:44.600 --> 1:08:49.160 Yeah, I mean the American adoption system and most adoption 1:08:49.280 --> 1:08:53.360 systems are like disturbingly broken, which yes, it's like almost 1:08:53.360 --> 1:08:56.240 an entirely different another one of the many things that 1:08:56.280 --> 1:08:59.599 this movie doesn't have much interest in touching, but I mean. 1:08:59.520 --> 1:09:04.120 Specific like the Hollywood it it feels one of I guess, well, 1:09:04.160 --> 1:09:05.800 I don't know, let me know what you think. 1:09:06.160 --> 1:09:09.720 Getting rid of the studio abuse component is one of 1:09:09.760 --> 1:09:12.519 the few things that does feel kind of intentionally left out, 1:09:12.840 --> 1:09:16.400 because if you include it, then Joan is less scary. 1:09:17.360 --> 1:09:20.120 And I think also Hollywood at that time might have 1:09:20.160 --> 1:09:23.160 been a little reluctant to tell on itself in that way. 1:09:23.240 --> 1:09:28.320 It's like, we'll tell on her, right, But us is different. 1:09:28.400 --> 1:09:35.120 We absolve all responsibility. We never exploit people or abuse them. 1:09:35.320 --> 1:09:36.200 I mean that like that. 1:09:36.680 --> 1:09:38.800 I think you mentioned in your video that there was 1:09:38.840 --> 1:09:42.960 an earlier version of the script that began with Joan 1:09:43.000 --> 1:09:48.320 Crawford as a young actor being physically like assaulted. 1:09:47.800 --> 1:09:50.640 By Louis b. Mahor in his office, which was like 1:09:50.960 --> 1:09:54.960 his whole thing, if you can call it that, and 1:09:55.200 --> 1:09:57.920 that that is like foregone in favor of the Louis 1:09:57.960 --> 1:10:00.479 by Maher scene we get is just like, oh, this 1:10:00.520 --> 1:10:02.880 movie has no interest in they're not going to touch 1:10:03.280 --> 1:10:07.360 any of it, Like it's not even implied, right, Yeah. 1:10:07.080 --> 1:10:09.000 And then it just like brings you back to like 1:10:09.880 --> 1:10:12.640 that that same kind of circular argument, which is like 1:10:12.680 --> 1:10:14.960 do we need it to tell Christina story? You know 1:10:14.960 --> 1:10:17.559 what I mean, like like you just it's you just 1:10:17.680 --> 1:10:21.120 get caught setting traps for yourself. I guess along the 1:10:21.120 --> 1:10:24.400 way of like trying to make sense of this story 1:10:24.400 --> 1:10:27.800 in a way that feels fair totally that isn't fair 1:10:27.800 --> 1:10:28.400 to anybody. 1:10:29.160 --> 1:10:31.719 No, I know, like I don't know where to land 1:10:31.800 --> 1:10:35.800 on this because I mean, and maybe the solution is 1:10:36.160 --> 1:10:40.559 what was to just center the survivor of the abuse 1:10:40.760 --> 1:10:45.160 far more than the abuser, because by centering the abuser, 1:10:46.120 --> 1:10:51.240 it's doing that thing of like women are horrible see 1:10:51.800 --> 1:10:57.200 and kind of not undermining the abuse. But I mean, 1:10:57.240 --> 1:11:01.639 as this movie does like campify it in a way 1:11:01.680 --> 1:11:06.400 that abuse shouldn't be campified, and that wasn't the intention 1:11:06.479 --> 1:11:09.720 of the filmmakers. But you know, it was directed by 1:11:09.720 --> 1:11:13.400 a man, it was written the many mini drafts were 1:11:13.920 --> 1:11:18.720 either mostly or entirely written by men, and you just 1:11:18.840 --> 1:11:23.920 can't really trust them to handle something like this subject matter. 1:11:24.320 --> 1:11:25.840 It's not these ones well. 1:11:26.000 --> 1:11:28.040 And one thing that I do kind of regret about 1:11:28.080 --> 1:11:32.639 this is like Frank Perry, I think has really great 1:11:33.200 --> 1:11:37.520 subtle films, like you know, Diarrhya of a Mad Housewife 1:11:38.400 --> 1:11:41.679 is incredible. Like one of his films that I recently 1:11:41.760 --> 1:11:44.320 became obsessed with is called Last Summer, which is like 1:11:44.320 --> 1:11:46.519 one of the most fucked up movies I've ever seen. 1:11:46.560 --> 1:11:47.720 It's a coming of age. 1:11:47.439 --> 1:11:51.000 Story about how this Yes, it's like it's kind of 1:11:51.240 --> 1:11:54.160 I guess obscure because it's been unavailable for so long, 1:11:54.240 --> 1:11:56.680 but they just restored it and so I'm hoping a 1:11:56.680 --> 1:11:58.920 lot of theaters are gonna get access to it in 1:11:58.960 --> 1:12:01.920 the coming months, so look out for that. It's called 1:12:02.000 --> 1:12:03.960 Last Summer. But it's just a really fucked up, like 1:12:04.000 --> 1:12:06.200 coming of age story about these teenagers who are kind 1:12:06.200 --> 1:12:09.040 of like abusive toward each other, but in a way 1:12:09.040 --> 1:12:12.600 that I think is really mature actually, And I'm just like, 1:12:12.720 --> 1:12:14.639 I know he has that story in. 1:12:14.640 --> 1:12:15.960 Him, you know what I mean. 1:12:16.080 --> 1:12:20.640 I'm like, I've seen you tackle similar things really beautifully 1:12:20.640 --> 1:12:24.840 and really subtly. It makes me wonder what this film 1:12:24.840 --> 1:12:27.479 could have been like if his ex wife had also 1:12:27.520 --> 1:12:30.360 been a collaborator on this one as she had in 1:12:30.360 --> 1:12:34.800 his previous works, because maybe like a female sensitivity or 1:12:34.840 --> 1:12:38.479 something like that could have aided in telling this story. 1:12:38.520 --> 1:12:42.200 It's hard to say, but yeah, I don't know. 1:12:42.240 --> 1:12:44.599 It's like he's not a bad filmmaker, and that's what sucks. 1:12:45.280 --> 1:12:48.200 It's very unclear who to point the fingerhet for this. 1:12:48.479 --> 1:12:53.120 I think Fay also should take some of that responsibility, sure, 1:12:53.160 --> 1:12:56.839 because I think, like she obviously is a great actress, 1:12:56.920 --> 1:12:59.400 but I think in some ways, I don't know, I 1:12:59.400 --> 1:13:01.960 think people are also really torn on this performance as well, 1:13:02.000 --> 1:13:05.639 Like I don't think of camp as a derogatory term, 1:13:05.760 --> 1:13:09.040 so to me, like the commitment of this is extraordinary, 1:13:09.920 --> 1:13:13.360 but undeniably is not a humanistic portrayal, Like she is 1:13:13.400 --> 1:13:15.680 not trying to make her anything other than the cartoon 1:13:16.000 --> 1:13:19.680 in the screenplay, Right, So I'm sort of like, I 1:13:19.680 --> 1:13:21.840 don't know that that was your choice, and I kind 1:13:21.880 --> 1:13:26.200 of find it an entertaining choice, but it seems counterproductive 1:13:26.200 --> 1:13:27.760 to her goals for the role. 1:13:28.439 --> 1:13:31.639 Yeah, that's what I was thinking too, because again, her 1:13:31.920 --> 1:13:37.960 her intention was to humanize Joan Crawford, but all of 1:13:38.000 --> 1:13:43.360 the most memorable moments of this movie are fade down 1:13:43.439 --> 1:13:49.800 away playing Joan Crawford as the most unhinged person imaginable. 1:13:50.000 --> 1:13:52.160 So I'm like, well, say then, which is, why why 1:13:52.360 --> 1:13:53.240 do you do that? 1:13:53.920 --> 1:13:56.720 My operating theory that does take some of the heat 1:13:56.760 --> 1:14:00.160 off of fade underway, because that's my agenda. But also, oh, 1:14:00.320 --> 1:14:03.400 she does deserve some smoke for this is that they 1:14:03.439 --> 1:14:07.760 did ten takes of everything, and on the last take, 1:14:09.080 --> 1:14:11.840 Frank Perry said, go big, go big, go big. Let's 1:14:11.840 --> 1:14:15.479 do a silly one. Yes, he said, just do a 1:14:15.520 --> 1:14:18.720 silly one, go full joker mode on this, and then 1:14:18.760 --> 1:14:20.760 he just used all of those takes. I don't know, 1:14:20.800 --> 1:14:23.519 because it's like she won't. She hasn't really, at least 1:14:23.560 --> 1:14:26.880 that I was seeing. She like, she's definitely She went 1:14:26.920 --> 1:14:29.840 on that like press tour years later to sort of 1:14:30.320 --> 1:14:32.479 illustrate that she felt that it had hurt her career 1:14:33.120 --> 1:14:35.439 and that like the part had stuck to her in 1:14:35.479 --> 1:14:37.680 a way that she felt was like not fair or 1:14:37.720 --> 1:14:40.960 reflective of who she is or her abilities. But it 1:14:41.080 --> 1:14:44.800 seems like most anecdotes I've found about her being asked 1:14:44.840 --> 1:14:49.040 about this are met with a fair amount of hostility, 1:14:49.120 --> 1:14:53.519 which is a common Fay done away reaction. Yeah, but 1:14:53.600 --> 1:14:55.639 I am curious I'm like, I would. I know, she's 1:14:55.720 --> 1:14:58.519 like also method, so, which is like a shorthand for 1:14:58.640 --> 1:15:01.800 like annoying and so hard to work with. 1:15:02.080 --> 1:15:02.200 Right. 1:15:02.240 --> 1:15:04.679 I feel like she's the one female actor who gets 1:15:04.720 --> 1:15:08.439 pinned with the negative connotation of method, you know, kind 1:15:08.479 --> 1:15:11.280 of right because when men do it, people are like, wow, 1:15:11.680 --> 1:15:13.040 he's so awesome. 1:15:13.360 --> 1:15:15.880 Well that's the performance is bad, and then you know 1:15:16.200 --> 1:15:17.200 it depends. 1:15:16.880 --> 1:15:19.840 Or it's like it's like, oh, Daniel d Lewis lived 1:15:19.880 --> 1:15:24.280 as a penny to like prepare for Abraham Lincoln. You know, 1:15:24.320 --> 1:15:27.320 it's like it's like all these crazy stuff that they're 1:15:27.320 --> 1:15:29.839 trying to like make these actors seem like they're really extreme, 1:15:30.640 --> 1:15:34.160 and often what they'll say, they'll use like examples of 1:15:34.200 --> 1:15:37.920 them being assholes to say like this is method. 1:15:37.960 --> 1:15:38.839 Isn't that wild? 1:15:39.120 --> 1:15:41.280 Yeah? As a positive Yeah, but. 1:15:41.240 --> 1:15:43.559 I feel like, you know, nobody's talking about Sally Sally 1:15:43.600 --> 1:15:48.000 Field is method. Nobody says anything about it because she's 1:15:48.360 --> 1:15:52.519 behaving like a person, because she's not abusing people around her. 1:15:52.800 --> 1:15:56.679 Yeah, there's upper limits to what she's not mailing. 1:15:56.720 --> 1:15:59.160 What was the Jared Letta thing like mailing dead rats 1:15:59.160 --> 1:15:59.960 to people or whatever? 1:16:00.439 --> 1:16:01.000 Oh god? 1:16:01.600 --> 1:16:03.240 Yeah, And I think especially when it like not a 1:16:03.280 --> 1:16:07.280 well received performance. It just it's people catch a lot 1:16:07.280 --> 1:16:07.679 of smoke. 1:16:07.920 --> 1:16:10.880 But it's I mean, I'm just I'm just objectively so 1:16:11.160 --> 1:16:12.200 like what was going. 1:16:12.000 --> 1:16:15.439 Through her head because she had like very successfully played 1:16:15.680 --> 1:16:18.920 real life people before with a lot of like sensitivity, 1:16:19.000 --> 1:16:20.320 like she played Bonnie Parker. 1:16:21.080 --> 1:16:23.639 Do we think am I remembering this correctly? You might 1:16:23.920 --> 1:16:26.599 have come across this in your research, but I feel 1:16:26.600 --> 1:16:28.439 like I remember her saying she felt like she was 1:16:28.479 --> 1:16:31.240 haunted by Joan or something like that. 1:16:31.920 --> 1:16:34.320 She said in a clip that I think was in 1:16:34.360 --> 1:16:36.240 your video. She said that she felt like it took 1:16:36.240 --> 1:16:39.640 her months to get Joan out of her body, and 1:16:39.760 --> 1:16:43.200 like use the word possession, which is like great method 1:16:43.280 --> 1:16:46.000 talk totally, But I just I don't know. 1:16:46.280 --> 1:16:47.040 I can see that. 1:16:47.160 --> 1:16:49.240 I mean, I feel like that sometimes when I'm writing 1:16:49.280 --> 1:16:53.320 about a person where I'm just so focused on that 1:16:53.360 --> 1:16:57.400 person's life or their filmography, where it just feels like 1:16:57.439 --> 1:16:59.160 you're so in it, they can't they can't get out 1:16:59.200 --> 1:17:03.000 of your head, right, And like I could see something 1:17:03.160 --> 1:17:05.240 when you're pushing it to that extreme, when you have 1:17:05.320 --> 1:17:09.880 to live that life and inhabit that body in such 1:17:10.360 --> 1:17:13.840 like nightmarish scenes as that I can't imagine pushing that 1:17:13.880 --> 1:17:16.240 out quickly that that would seem like it'd be really 1:17:16.280 --> 1:17:18.439 hard to get rid of mentally totally. 1:17:18.840 --> 1:17:20.960 I mean, it's like in technically it is like the 1:17:21.080 --> 1:17:26.799 job of her director to like guide this performance to something. 1:17:29.040 --> 1:17:29.439 I don't know. 1:17:29.520 --> 1:17:29.880 I don't know. 1:17:29.920 --> 1:17:32.080 It's like hard to say, Like I was going to 1:17:32.120 --> 1:17:34.400 be mean and say something like more coherent, but like 1:17:34.520 --> 1:17:36.040 so many people love this performance. 1:17:37.680 --> 1:17:40.880 It's I don't know. Maybe it was just made too soon. 1:17:41.040 --> 1:17:44.720 Maybe all this happened too soon. I don't I don't know. 1:17:44.960 --> 1:17:47.080 I mean, oddly enough, I'm like, this is something that 1:17:47.120 --> 1:17:49.160 would actually be a good mini series. I don't want 1:17:49.160 --> 1:17:50.720 to put that idea in the world. I don't want 1:17:50.760 --> 1:17:53.040 to see it, but I think the scale of the 1:17:53.080 --> 1:17:54.800 story is big enough. 1:17:55.080 --> 1:17:58.040 Ryan Murphy just like his eyes just I know, like, well, 1:17:58.080 --> 1:17:59.960 don't do it again, let's do it again. 1:18:00.640 --> 1:18:04.799 No, Oh my god, that's just like the most cursed 1:18:04.920 --> 1:18:06.880 thing I've ever imagined in my life. 1:18:06.920 --> 1:18:07.920 Wow, he. 1:18:09.680 --> 1:18:10.599 Needs to be stopped. 1:18:11.680 --> 1:18:13.880 It would be really I mean, it would be interesting 1:18:13.920 --> 1:18:16.719 to see how like an adaptation of this would work, 1:18:17.560 --> 1:18:19.800 or how it would reflect the way that we've talked 1:18:19.840 --> 1:18:23.360 about abuses like change or I don't know. I feel 1:18:23.400 --> 1:18:25.160 like it would be hard to get this version of 1:18:25.200 --> 1:18:28.200 the movie again. But we're like regressing as a society 1:18:28.240 --> 1:18:29.960 pretty quickly, so maybe we would get this. 1:18:30.120 --> 1:18:32.919 I don't know, it's true. I think Ai could write. 1:18:32.720 --> 1:18:38.680 This for sure, but AI could not do what Fayton doesn't. Absolutely, 1:18:38.880 --> 1:18:42.080 You're right, that's it's it's a hollow argument for humans, 1:18:42.120 --> 1:18:43.720 but it's true. 1:18:44.160 --> 1:18:45.880 Well what is what is for sure? 1:18:46.000 --> 1:18:48.519 And we've like referenced this earlier in the episode, is 1:18:48.640 --> 1:18:52.360 that you know whether this movie intended to be a 1:18:52.439 --> 1:18:56.839 more like thoughtful portrayal of the people in themes involved. 1:18:57.040 --> 1:19:02.160 Paramount Studios did not care. They going to change courses 1:19:02.160 --> 1:19:05.080 to whatever was going to get people in seats, and 1:19:05.520 --> 1:19:07.880 this was I mean, you talked about this in your video. 1:19:07.920 --> 1:19:11.240 It's also expanded on kind of like moment by moment 1:19:11.560 --> 1:19:13.160 in with Love Mommy Dearest. 1:19:13.240 --> 1:19:16.360 Of how like there's a series of. 1:19:16.400 --> 1:19:22.280 Test screenings for this movie that, like an anonymous executive 1:19:22.400 --> 1:19:25.000 said that as they were screening it more the first 1:19:25.000 --> 1:19:28.120 time they screened it, people started laughing about three quarters 1:19:28.120 --> 1:19:30.200 of the way through. The second time they screened it 1:19:30.240 --> 1:19:33.280 was halfway this third time it was like a quarter 1:19:33.320 --> 1:19:37.760 of the way, and they realized very quickly that they 1:19:37.800 --> 1:19:39.799 should be marketing it as a comedy. 1:19:41.520 --> 1:19:48.080 So it's which is wild, really brutal for all parties. 1:19:48.920 --> 1:19:52.479 But yeah, mel Brooks went to an early screening of this, 1:19:52.520 --> 1:19:55.479 which I guess makes sense because Anne Bancroft almost starred 1:19:55.479 --> 1:19:58.400 in it. But there's just like all of these And 1:19:59.120 --> 1:20:02.120 I was talking about him earlier, Harvey, Who was I 1:20:02.160 --> 1:20:06.479 talking about Bruce Bruce Belane, Yeah, Bruce Bruce Flanche was 1:20:06.479 --> 1:20:09.280 at an early screening of that. Like everyone saw an 1:20:09.320 --> 1:20:12.440 early cut of this and was like, this is funny. Unfortunately, 1:20:13.400 --> 1:20:17.320 and so the studio pivoted basically right away. It was 1:20:17.360 --> 1:20:20.960 allegedly given the green light by Barry Diller to start 1:20:21.000 --> 1:20:24.880 marketing this. Like the competing taglines, it's marketed as a 1:20:24.960 --> 1:20:28.639 serious biopic that centers Faye Dunaway's performance and then quickly 1:20:28.760 --> 1:20:32.840 changes to no more wire hangers. Ever, they call her 1:20:32.920 --> 1:20:36.480 the biggest mother of them all. They've got the Ajax 1:20:36.800 --> 1:20:42.360 spawn like Paramount was very, very very down to trivialize 1:20:42.479 --> 1:20:45.360 all of the themes that the filmmakers, and I guess 1:20:45.400 --> 1:20:49.599 to Frank period or no, I think Frank Joblondz's credit Yeah, 1:20:49.680 --> 1:20:52.760 he was really upset about this and tried to I 1:20:52.840 --> 1:20:55.320 was kind of unclear on how it shook out, but 1:20:55.360 --> 1:20:58.559 like tried to sue the studio for pivoting on the 1:20:58.560 --> 1:21:02.000 marketing so quickly. But another thing I was surprised about 1:21:02.360 --> 1:21:06.040 is that this movie was financially successful. It made twenty 1:21:06.080 --> 1:21:09.240 five million on a ten million dollar budget, so regardless 1:21:09.280 --> 1:21:13.479 of the intention, it was marketed as a sort of 1:21:13.479 --> 1:21:14.879 how we think about it now. 1:21:15.000 --> 1:21:18.519 Right, Yeah, that is. It is fascinating to see a 1:21:18.600 --> 1:21:23.519 movie that almost instantly becomes a camp classic, because I 1:21:23.520 --> 1:21:27.080 feel like it usually takes a little while, but it's 1:21:27.120 --> 1:21:29.840 this and again cats. 1:21:30.400 --> 1:21:35.160 Yeah, yeah, I do think it helps. I think just 1:21:35.200 --> 1:21:38.360 the presence of Joan Crawford as a cultural figure, you 1:21:38.360 --> 1:21:41.599 could imagine a lot of she just would have been 1:21:41.600 --> 1:21:45.320 in like a cultural vocabulary that maybe like smooths the 1:21:45.400 --> 1:21:48.679 route toward camp classic because everybody kind of has these 1:21:48.880 --> 1:21:51.400 touch points with her and their memory, you know, or 1:21:51.960 --> 1:21:56.200 which is interesting. I do think it's it's interesting. I 1:21:56.240 --> 1:21:58.519 always think about this movie when I think about films 1:21:58.520 --> 1:22:01.080 like Wuthering Heights or something where it's like there's sort 1:22:01.120 --> 1:22:04.639 of a narrative going around on the internet. I guess 1:22:04.720 --> 1:22:07.920 about a film that people then enter the film with. 1:22:08.640 --> 1:22:11.080 Does that make it like you hear about what people 1:22:11.080 --> 1:22:13.720 are saying about it first, and then you go see 1:22:13.720 --> 1:22:16.320 it and your interpretation is kind of informed by that 1:22:16.920 --> 1:22:20.840 general consensus, you know, So I could I could imagine 1:22:22.120 --> 1:22:24.040 or what's like another example of that, or the one 1:22:24.040 --> 1:22:26.360 that Harry Styles was in kind of recently that everyone 1:22:26.439 --> 1:22:27.720 was like, he's the worst actor ever. 1:22:27.840 --> 1:22:30.320 Oh don't worry Darling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know what 1:22:30.320 --> 1:22:30.519 I mean. 1:22:30.560 --> 1:22:34.360 It's these kinds of things where you're kind of responding 1:22:34.479 --> 1:22:38.400 to the response. And I wonder if Mommy DearS was 1:22:38.439 --> 1:22:40.240 kind of like that, if people just kind of heard 1:22:40.280 --> 1:22:44.800 it as you know, a can't be funny movie, and 1:22:44.840 --> 1:22:46.840 then you go in expecting to laugh. You're going to 1:22:46.880 --> 1:22:48.960 see a different movie than you would have if you 1:22:48.960 --> 1:22:49.559 weren't told that. 1:22:49.800 --> 1:22:54.200 Yeah, for sure. Nothing illustrated that for me. 1:22:55.000 --> 1:22:58.360 Like last year, I don't know what anniversary was, but 1:22:58.520 --> 1:23:02.760 AMC released Rocky Horror Picture Show into a theater for 1:23:03.000 --> 1:23:05.960 like one night at AMC's, but with none of the 1:23:06.040 --> 1:23:09.080 Rocky Horror frills. So I just saw and and my 1:23:09.200 --> 1:23:11.920 fiancee had never seen it, so we went together and 1:23:12.280 --> 1:23:16.200 I was expecting the rocky horror experience and if you're 1:23:16.240 --> 1:23:17.640 not watching it with the experience. 1:23:17.680 --> 1:23:20.400 He was like, what He's like, that was all right? 1:23:20.720 --> 1:23:22.760 I don't know. I was like, yeah, it's really not 1:23:22.880 --> 1:23:25.240 as fun without all the other stuff. It's weird. 1:23:25.320 --> 1:23:27.840 Yeah, I And that's I just like, and I still 1:23:27.840 --> 1:23:30.759 want to go to a Mommy Jaris screening. 1:23:30.840 --> 1:23:34.760 I mean, the one of the one of the. 1:23:34.400 --> 1:23:38.640 Rituals that you cited in addition to this, like I 1:23:38.640 --> 1:23:42.559 mean Joan Crawford's connection to drag performers, but also like 1:23:42.640 --> 1:23:47.600 Fade Unaway's Joan Crawford's connection to drag performers, but the 1:23:48.200 --> 1:23:52.320 like dragging effigies of Christina in the street was something 1:23:52.320 --> 1:23:55.800 that was we were like, well, if we need a 1:23:56.080 --> 1:23:58.080 further proof this movie missed the mark. 1:23:58.520 --> 1:24:01.519 Yeah, the thing I could see if that movie came 1:24:01.560 --> 1:24:03.519 out today and someone did that, I could see myself 1:24:03.560 --> 1:24:07.720 at that performance laughing. It's so hard, you know, And 1:24:07.760 --> 1:24:09.479 I'm just like, am I a horrible person? 1:24:09.800 --> 1:24:12.320 Maybe? No, though, I mean. 1:24:12.760 --> 1:24:15.760 Maybe it's that like we I mean, we don't know, 1:24:16.080 --> 1:24:19.320 but it would appear on the surface that Christina Crawford 1:24:19.520 --> 1:24:24.800 like turned out okay, Like she went on like again 1:24:24.840 --> 1:24:25.360 we don't know. 1:24:25.520 --> 1:24:28.840 Well, she's like an ultra Christian, like isolated on a farm, 1:24:29.120 --> 1:24:31.479 so yeah, there is also well. 1:24:31.960 --> 1:24:34.759 Much of much of her whole guild now involves living 1:24:34.800 --> 1:24:35.560 in Florida. 1:24:36.040 --> 1:24:39.120 I see, you see, But yeah, I don't know. 1:24:39.200 --> 1:24:42.200 It's impossible to because we were talking about Carrie Fisher 1:24:42.240 --> 1:24:46.480 recently about how like some of her writing about mental 1:24:46.520 --> 1:24:51.200 health was like not necessarily well received by everyone who's 1:24:51.240 --> 1:24:53.680 like suffering from the same mental health diagnoses that she was, 1:24:53.920 --> 1:24:57.240 and especially when she was like fictionalizing that work, which 1:24:57.320 --> 1:24:59.080 is like another thing that you discussed in a recent 1:24:59.160 --> 1:25:03.040 video of yours and her screenwriting career. But that doesn't 1:25:03.360 --> 1:25:05.360 I don't know. I mean, like that doesn't mean that 1:25:05.640 --> 1:25:09.760 whatever people can receive work, however, feels right to them. 1:25:09.840 --> 1:25:12.640 And also if Christina Crawfor is upset about that, that 1:25:12.760 --> 1:25:16.360 is also completely valid and couldn't make more sense totally. 1:25:16.760 --> 1:25:18.840 I mean the way the reason I think it's funny 1:25:18.880 --> 1:25:22.960 is because, like, I take it so seriously that to 1:25:23.000 --> 1:25:25.639 see it portrayed in this way is almost like, oh, 1:25:25.640 --> 1:25:30.280 I recognize this as minimalizing something very serious, and that's 1:25:30.960 --> 1:25:34.040 so off base to me that I cannot help but laugh. 1:25:34.600 --> 1:25:36.720 You know right, Like it's like this is like if 1:25:36.720 --> 1:25:40.600 a if like horrific triald abuse. 1:25:40.320 --> 1:25:44.519 Had been like explained to like an alien. I don't know. 1:25:44.600 --> 1:25:47.519 There are parts that are genuinely funny and we have 1:25:47.560 --> 1:25:50.479 to live with that. Yeah, it's true. 1:25:50.479 --> 1:25:52.160 It's bizarre, but true. 1:25:52.640 --> 1:25:54.840 I do think one thing that does interest me about 1:25:54.840 --> 1:25:58.160 Fay Dunaway's performance is like, I think that Joan maybe 1:25:58.200 --> 1:26:00.680 got some caught some strays for was that. I think 1:26:00.720 --> 1:26:04.480 people think Joan Crawford acts like that in her films now. 1:26:04.960 --> 1:26:05.679 But she doesn't. 1:26:05.880 --> 1:26:08.840 I would She's a much subtler actor than that. 1:26:09.920 --> 1:26:13.759 So I would say, if this movie hasn't completely thrown 1:26:13.800 --> 1:26:16.519 you off of the idea of watching or engaging with 1:26:16.640 --> 1:26:20.080 jen Crawford's work, you will find a better actress than 1:26:20.320 --> 1:26:23.120 you might assume based on this performance. 1:26:23.320 --> 1:26:27.040 Yeah, go back and watch Mildred Peers for example. 1:26:27.320 --> 1:26:31.439 Or or I think that Baby Jane, I mean I 1:26:31.479 --> 1:26:33.440 think that she's showing a lot of hers straightened. 1:26:33.080 --> 1:26:34.679 Baby Jane, she's a lot bigger. 1:26:34.960 --> 1:26:38.000 Yeah, I mean she's letting Betty Davis steal the show. 1:26:38.160 --> 1:26:41.599 I think, Yeah, And I think that's that's a good performer. 1:26:42.120 --> 1:26:46.920 Yeah. Yeah, Is there anything else that you'll wanted to touch. 1:26:46.760 --> 1:26:51.880 On not especially No, I think I'm good. Yeah, we covered. 1:26:51.600 --> 1:26:53.000 It, We did it. Yeah. 1:26:53.040 --> 1:26:57.280 My last thing was this was a quote from Christina 1:26:57.320 --> 1:27:02.120 Crawford I found in with Love My Mommy Dearist that 1:27:02.280 --> 1:27:05.439 sort of touches on what you were just saying. Is 1:27:05.479 --> 1:27:10.599 he about like, ultimately, how much did this movie affect 1:27:11.040 --> 1:27:14.559 how we think of and talk about Joan Crawford as 1:27:14.600 --> 1:27:18.920 a cultural figure and how much does that matter? 1:27:19.240 --> 1:27:21.760 And like people's mileage are going to vary there. 1:27:22.280 --> 1:27:25.360 I think Christina's perspective on it is interesting, But also 1:27:25.400 --> 1:27:30.799 I agree with you that, like, undeniably this is like affect. 1:27:30.920 --> 1:27:32.720 I think that you know, if you're not like well 1:27:32.840 --> 1:27:35.880 versed in Joan Crawford's work, and you're like, there are 1:27:35.920 --> 1:27:39.679 probably people who picture Faye on Away before they picture her. 1:27:40.600 --> 1:27:41.400 But she so. 1:27:41.520 --> 1:27:45.320 Christina Crawford was asked about this specifically, which again it's 1:27:45.320 --> 1:27:47.320 like if you're being asked this about your abuser, it's 1:27:47.360 --> 1:27:48.559 a very frustrating question. 1:27:48.840 --> 1:27:51.400 Oh sure, yeah, but she takes it in stride. 1:27:51.840 --> 1:27:55.840 When asked about how Mommy Dearist and having published it 1:27:56.360 --> 1:27:59.240 affected Jones's legacy or if it did, and she said 1:27:59.439 --> 1:28:02.160 that's not true. True, her public image is preserved on film. 1:28:02.320 --> 1:28:04.599 Nothing will ever change that. The work she did as 1:28:04.640 --> 1:28:07.799 a professional, the image she created on screen, will live forever. 1:28:08.160 --> 1:28:10.200 Mommy Dearest is not about that, and doesn't in any 1:28:10.240 --> 1:28:12.760 way touch that. In fact, I deal very briefly with 1:28:12.800 --> 1:28:15.400 her career, and in each and every case I think generously, 1:28:15.840 --> 1:28:18.000 But it is not about Joan Crawford's career as a 1:28:18.000 --> 1:28:20.679 public person. As far as her behavior as my mother 1:28:20.760 --> 1:28:22.760 and my life with her, that belongs to me. That 1:28:22.920 --> 1:28:25.160 is my right and it is not my responsibility, nor 1:28:25.240 --> 1:28:27.280 was it possible for me to change how she behaved 1:28:27.320 --> 1:28:29.920 during the time she was alive. So not only do 1:28:29.960 --> 1:28:32.160 I have an absolutely clear conscience about the information in 1:28:32.200 --> 1:28:33.840 the book, but I believe I have the right to 1:28:33.880 --> 1:28:36.240 my own life, and that's all. I took the right 1:28:36.280 --> 1:28:39.559 to my own life, which I think is completely fair. 1:28:40.400 --> 1:28:42.920 But and I feel like we've sort of circled around this. 1:28:43.600 --> 1:28:44.559 That's the book. 1:28:44.840 --> 1:28:46.840 The movie is able. 1:28:46.600 --> 1:28:50.479 To do things that the book kind of can't, and 1:28:50.560 --> 1:28:55.440 it chooses not to for all these different reasons. 1:28:55.720 --> 1:28:58.280 Yeah, I mean, I think the way that I sort 1:28:58.320 --> 1:29:00.360 of experience it, like going off of what she said, 1:29:01.320 --> 1:29:03.559 her legacy is preserved in these films. But I think 1:29:03.600 --> 1:29:06.760 what's kind of sad about what this film did is 1:29:06.800 --> 1:29:10.160 that so much of you know, if you're participating in 1:29:10.160 --> 1:29:14.479 classic film communities online or whatever, like, like it's ever 1:29:14.600 --> 1:29:17.559 present sort of this like defensiveness of Joan Crawford in 1:29:17.600 --> 1:29:20.760 that way, people who are like very aggressively against this 1:29:20.880 --> 1:29:23.600 film for reasons of their own, you know. But like 1:29:24.320 --> 1:29:26.840 it sucks that that will always be attached to it 1:29:26.880 --> 1:29:30.200 like it is. It is you cannot enjoy the films 1:29:30.240 --> 1:29:33.400 without interacting with that in some way, right, And it's 1:29:33.600 --> 1:29:36.240 it's like I don't think you should enjoy the films 1:29:36.280 --> 1:29:38.439 and not reckon with it. I mean that's kind of 1:29:38.479 --> 1:29:41.280 like one of the main quandaries of like all of 1:29:41.320 --> 1:29:44.200 classic film is there you encounter situations like this all 1:29:44.240 --> 1:29:48.040 the time. So it's not burying it. But I do 1:29:48.080 --> 1:29:52.839 think like this strain is so predominant with her because 1:29:52.840 --> 1:29:55.280 of this movie, when there are so many parents who. 1:29:55.080 --> 1:29:58.000 Are just as bad or worse right, So it is 1:29:58.080 --> 1:29:58.639 sort of. 1:29:58.560 --> 1:30:03.400 Like it dominates in an outsized way I think with her. 1:30:03.520 --> 1:30:08.200 I mean there's also this matter of any biopic or 1:30:08.240 --> 1:30:13.160 any movie that's about a real person, because it's a movie, 1:30:14.080 --> 1:30:20.559 it's going to be like cinematic afide in some way. 1:30:20.760 --> 1:30:25.320 They're gonna alter details, embellish things, just make it more cinematic, 1:30:26.240 --> 1:30:29.160 or they'll leave things out or like any number of 1:30:29.240 --> 1:30:34.160 things that won't do justice to what the real story is. 1:30:34.320 --> 1:30:39.320 I would say in most cases, almost every biopick gets 1:30:39.360 --> 1:30:42.280 some kind of backlash about well, they didn't do this, 1:30:42.439 --> 1:30:44.040 or they didn't talk about this, or they lift this 1:30:44.080 --> 1:30:47.040 out or they added this or you know. So it's 1:30:47.160 --> 1:30:48.759 just it's really tricky. 1:30:49.560 --> 1:30:51.559 Yeah, and no one wants a biopic that's like a 1:30:51.560 --> 1:30:54.559 Wikipedia page. That's like the worst kind of biopic, which 1:30:54.600 --> 1:30:57.599 is like all of them, you know mostly these days. 1:30:57.680 --> 1:31:00.559 Yeah, it's just very it's very tricky. 1:31:00.600 --> 1:31:04.720 It's tough, yeah, because it's like they you know, there's 1:31:04.760 --> 1:31:08.559 not to like diminish any of Christina's account, but it's 1:31:08.600 --> 1:31:12.120 like money exchanges hands with this too. It's like that's unavoidable. 1:31:12.400 --> 1:31:15.080 Where it's like they're you know, the timing of this matters. 1:31:15.160 --> 1:31:18.000 Do you get as big a kickback if you sell 1:31:18.000 --> 1:31:18.960 this ten years after? 1:31:19.280 --> 1:31:19.920 No, you don't. 1:31:20.640 --> 1:31:24.240 I don't know, the selling of like life rights and 1:31:24.240 --> 1:31:24.840 stuff like that. 1:31:24.960 --> 1:31:27.760 I think about it. It's a it's a it's a 1:31:27.800 --> 1:31:30.600 dirty little business. Yeah. 1:31:30.640 --> 1:31:33.880 And she sold the rights to her book for five 1:31:34.080 --> 1:31:37.559 hundred thousand dollars in the late seventies. And I don't 1:31:37.560 --> 1:31:39.920 say that as a judgment. I just say that is 1:31:39.960 --> 1:31:42.160 a I think more is a statement, is more than that, 1:31:42.200 --> 1:31:42.800 it's a part of it. 1:31:42.960 --> 1:31:43.439 Yeah. 1:31:43.640 --> 1:31:46.880 I think like in total she earned from selling the 1:31:46.960 --> 1:31:49.559 rights to these books, like more than Joan had when 1:31:49.560 --> 1:31:53.679 she died, oh wow, or around that number. So yeah, 1:31:53.720 --> 1:31:55.760 which is like, I don't know, that's better than the. 1:31:55.760 --> 1:32:00.320 Will Estray, Like well, the wheel hair gave her nothing all. 1:32:01.000 --> 1:32:06.160 Yeah, dealing with this movie requires what so few and 1:32:06.400 --> 1:32:09.240 like online communities are capable of, which is like holding 1:32:09.280 --> 1:32:10.200 many truths at once. 1:32:10.520 --> 1:32:10.800 Right. 1:32:11.160 --> 1:32:12.439 The last thing that I mean. 1:32:12.360 --> 1:32:17.800 Even including with the dispute between Christina and Christopher and 1:32:17.960 --> 1:32:21.479 the younger siblings too, of just the concept that every 1:32:21.600 --> 1:32:25.719 especially with like age gaps and siblings, every kid grows 1:32:25.760 --> 1:32:29.439 up with a different parent basically, which is definitely not 1:32:29.479 --> 1:32:32.000 a conversation that was happening in the seventies. It's just 1:32:32.880 --> 1:32:37.639 revisiting how black and white the conversations were at that time, 1:32:38.200 --> 1:32:39.160 Like you think. 1:32:38.960 --> 1:32:41.320 Of it go differently now, But I don't know. 1:32:41.600 --> 1:32:45.000 Well, it also makes me wonder what Christopher's experience was 1:32:45.080 --> 1:32:50.160 because this movie like really skims over it. But because 1:32:50.200 --> 1:32:52.840 he's left out of the will at the end, I'm 1:32:53.000 --> 1:32:56.120 just like, what was that experience like for him? And 1:32:56.479 --> 1:32:57.840 based on the movie, we have no idea? 1:32:57.880 --> 1:33:00.400 But also like are we owed that too? Is like 1:33:00.439 --> 1:33:03.639 that's the tricky Like I don't know, because it doesn't 1:33:03.680 --> 1:33:06.200 it doesn't seem like well, it seems like is he 1:33:06.240 --> 1:33:08.840 correct me? If you have conflicting information from what I 1:33:08.880 --> 1:33:13.040 was able to gather, Like, Christopher has backed Christina on 1:33:13.160 --> 1:33:19.040 her account, but has never wanted to get more specific 1:33:19.200 --> 1:33:22.640 or like be a public figure because he didn't have 1:33:22.680 --> 1:33:25.040 an easy life either, right, I mean, because. 1:33:26.560 --> 1:33:27.400 I believe he. 1:33:27.360 --> 1:33:31.719 Went to Vietnam, oh okay, and then had like several 1:33:31.800 --> 1:33:35.439 arrests for kind of like petty crimes and things like that, which, 1:33:35.680 --> 1:33:39.320 of course, I mean, Joan's a perfectionist, so that immediately 1:33:39.320 --> 1:33:42.360 puts a rift in their relationship. But it's all kind 1:33:42.400 --> 1:33:45.880 of stuff like you know, I'm reading the new Joan 1:33:45.920 --> 1:33:50.400 Crawford biography actually that just came out, which is extremely 1:33:51.040 --> 1:33:54.720 antagonistic towards this film. It describes this film in one 1:33:54.760 --> 1:33:57.080 paragraph and it's like the only good thing about this 1:33:57.080 --> 1:34:00.920 movie is that it ruined everyone who's involves reputation. That's 1:34:00.960 --> 1:34:03.360 all he wants to say about it. Written by A Jonehead. 1:34:03.439 --> 1:34:06.880 I see, yes, But I think like one of the 1:34:06.880 --> 1:34:10.040 things that I've found kind of disappointing is like it 1:34:10.080 --> 1:34:13.040 spends a lot of time kind of correcting the record 1:34:13.360 --> 1:34:15.960 on Mammy Dearist, I guess, and the claims in the book, 1:34:16.400 --> 1:34:18.800 which I think are valid, like these are quotes from 1:34:18.800 --> 1:34:21.120 like the Twins and all these things which we should 1:34:21.120 --> 1:34:24.200 take seriously, But it also doesn't want to make it 1:34:24.240 --> 1:34:29.080 doesn't want to take the analytical view. For example, why 1:34:29.160 --> 1:34:32.599 would a kid who was chained to his bed as 1:34:32.640 --> 1:34:36.320 a child perhaps get arrested for stealing a car? 1:34:37.120 --> 1:34:37.400 Right? 1:34:37.760 --> 1:34:38.439 You know what I mean? 1:34:38.680 --> 1:34:41.160 Like he like doesn't want to go there, and he 1:34:41.200 --> 1:34:44.360 doesn't want to think, like think about maybe the consequences 1:34:44.479 --> 1:34:48.679 like happened through these kids' lives and how it affected them, 1:34:49.240 --> 1:34:52.280 even if it wasn't as extreme as Mammy Dearist portrays it. 1:34:52.320 --> 1:34:55.439 If it's like just very strict parenting, like that is 1:34:55.439 --> 1:34:58.760 something to reckon with. Yeah, but like again it's like 1:34:58.800 --> 1:35:01.040 this is a biography you know what I mean, Like 1:35:01.080 --> 1:35:05.400 these are coming out as like factual accounts and they're conflicting, 1:35:05.439 --> 1:35:07.960 like I've read this is probably my third Jone biography, 1:35:08.000 --> 1:35:10.200 and they're all slightly different on this topic. 1:35:10.920 --> 1:35:12.280 And that's what's so tough, you know. 1:35:12.600 --> 1:35:17.400 And then like having written a nonfiction book, they don't fact. 1:35:17.200 --> 1:35:20.720 Check books like you can really like you get a 1:35:20.800 --> 1:35:24.280 legal pass so that the publisher doesn't get sued, but 1:35:24.479 --> 1:35:26.880 like if you're paying for fact checking, that's out of 1:35:26.920 --> 1:35:30.360 your pocket, not the publishers. And so the way that 1:35:30.560 --> 1:35:35.879 like certain information is canonized, you know, it's not surprising 1:35:35.920 --> 1:35:38.760 there's so many different interpretations of it because you can 1:35:38.880 --> 1:35:41.280 kind of just let loose at some point as long 1:35:41.320 --> 1:35:43.120 as the publisher doesn't think they're going to get sued 1:35:43.120 --> 1:35:45.799 over it. That's yeah, that's so frustrating. 1:35:45.840 --> 1:35:48.680 And it's like that is like why this movie. 1:35:48.320 --> 1:35:52.240 And so many other movies and pieces of media obviously, 1:35:52.240 --> 1:35:54.920 like I think about Lolita a lot, but like that 1:35:55.240 --> 1:36:00.479 they're unable to have a productive cultural conversation around abuse 1:36:00.640 --> 1:36:05.800 and like child abuse specifically, because there's like this unwillingness 1:36:05.840 --> 1:36:10.840 to deal with how like you're describing like how messy 1:36:10.880 --> 1:36:14.400 and how how frequently these like cycles of abuse overlap, 1:36:15.000 --> 1:36:17.360 and that a product of abuse can become an abuser, 1:36:17.479 --> 1:36:20.679 and that like if you can't accept that or talk 1:36:20.720 --> 1:36:24.160 about that, then there's like never going to be a 1:36:24.200 --> 1:36:27.280 productive conversation about it. If someone has to be the 1:36:27.479 --> 1:36:28.280 bad guy. 1:36:28.479 --> 1:36:31.080 Or even just to see people that you admire as 1:36:31.120 --> 1:36:35.160 flawed is like very difficult for a lot of people, absolutely. 1:36:34.840 --> 1:36:35.400 Which I get. 1:36:35.479 --> 1:36:37.519 But it's like you just kind of have to live 1:36:37.560 --> 1:36:39.599 with it, and I think that's being an adult. 1:36:40.080 --> 1:36:44.759 Yeah, most traumatized adults came by it honestly. 1:36:45.400 --> 1:36:51.559 Yeah. Yeah, Well, well the movie does pass the Bechdel test. 1:36:51.880 --> 1:36:55.360 Technically, yeah, in an all manner of ways. 1:36:55.439 --> 1:36:57.599 And as we alluded to. 1:36:57.720 --> 1:37:00.600 Earlier faviously genderless wire Hanger. 1:37:03.840 --> 1:37:06.559 And now our nipple scale, where we rate the movie 1:37:07.000 --> 1:37:09.640 on a scale of zero to five nipples based on 1:37:09.840 --> 1:37:15.960 examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. Boy, I know 1:37:16.360 --> 1:37:17.080 this is funny. 1:37:17.080 --> 1:37:20.240 I'm like understanding why we avoided this one for so long. 1:37:20.560 --> 1:37:23.599 Yeah, I'm so sorry, guys, it had to happen. 1:37:23.600 --> 1:37:28.439 To know, I think I might forego the nipple scale. 1:37:28.680 --> 1:37:31.439 I don't because I don't know. 1:37:32.880 --> 1:37:35.960 Right, it's both off the charts and not and below 1:37:36.040 --> 1:37:36.519 the charts. 1:37:36.880 --> 1:37:41.000 Yeah, exactly. It does not fall within the spectrum of 1:37:41.080 --> 1:37:42.559 the nipple scale this movie. 1:37:42.840 --> 1:37:46.440 Okay, I'm happy to forgot. Yeah. 1:37:46.520 --> 1:37:48.240 Yeah, and if you want to know what we think 1:37:48.280 --> 1:37:52.240 about it, listen to the past or in forty five 1:37:52.280 --> 1:37:53.800 minutes that we spent talking about it. 1:37:53.920 --> 1:37:57.960 Yeah, so, IZZI, thank you so much for joining USh 1:37:58.000 --> 1:37:59.960 my gosh, of course. Really, we're such a huge fan. 1:38:00.479 --> 1:38:03.640 Come back anytime, truly. Yes, yeah, I'd love to. I'm 1:38:03.680 --> 1:38:06.280 always I'm always available. I love talking to you guys 1:38:06.280 --> 1:38:08.080 about this. So this was this was fun. 1:38:08.120 --> 1:38:12.160 I hope we don't totally get canceled for our abuse. 1:38:13.400 --> 1:38:14.360 People will love this. 1:38:14.640 --> 1:38:16.439 You We're gonna love it. I can't wait. Send it. 1:38:16.560 --> 1:38:19.640 Fire off an email, see what happens. Yeah, we just 1:38:19.680 --> 1:38:20.240 won't respond. 1:38:22.439 --> 1:38:25.600 Where can people follow your work? Check you out online, 1:38:25.680 --> 1:38:28.720 et cetera. Yeah, you can find me. I mean, the 1:38:29.080 --> 1:38:32.880 bulk of my work goes on YouTube, just the channel 1:38:32.960 --> 1:38:36.320 be kind rewind and then I'm also on Instagram at 1:38:36.479 --> 1:38:38.360 BK underscore rewind. 1:38:38.800 --> 1:38:39.120 Nice. 1:38:39.880 --> 1:38:44.559 We are also on Instagram at bechdelcast and you can 1:38:44.600 --> 1:38:49.519 also find us on our Patreon aka Matreon, where Jamie 1:38:49.560 --> 1:38:52.600 and I do two bonus episodes every single month. For 1:38:52.680 --> 1:38:55.040 five dollars a month, you get access to the back 1:38:55.160 --> 1:39:00.000 catalog of around two hundred bonus episodes and we all 1:39:00.360 --> 1:39:06.080 do a fun little theme. We're just wrapping up Catherine 1:39:06.080 --> 1:39:11.960 O'Hara by Tribute, Yes month, bewery Yes Yes. So check 1:39:12.040 --> 1:39:14.759 us out over there patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast 1:39:15.920 --> 1:39:18.160 and with that, should we. 1:39:21.000 --> 1:39:23.840 Let's let's swap wigs. Let's swap wigs. 1:39:24.120 --> 1:39:25.640 Okay, go to bus. 1:39:25.320 --> 1:39:29.559 Funeral h huh, bye bye. 1:39:33.280 --> 1:39:36.640 The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and 1:39:36.760 --> 1:39:38.960 produced by Me, Jamie Loftus and. 1:39:39.000 --> 1:39:42.759 Me Caitlyn Durrante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie 1:39:42.800 --> 1:39:43.920 Lichtermann and. 1:39:43.960 --> 1:39:46.280 Edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever heard of Them? 1:39:46.800 --> 1:39:50.240 That's me and our logo and merch and all of 1:39:50.240 --> 1:39:54.000 our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus, Ever 1:39:54.040 --> 1:39:54.479 heard of her? 1:39:54.680 --> 1:39:57.680 Oh my God? And our theme song, by the way, 1:39:57.800 --> 1:39:59.560 was composed by Mike Kaplan. 1:39:59.400 --> 1:40:01.680 With vocal by Katherine Voskrasinski. 1:40:02.120 --> 1:40:06.560 Iconic and especial thanks to the one and only Aristotle Ascevedo. 1:40:07.080 --> 1:40:10.880 For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash 1:40:10.920 --> 1:40:11.720 spectelcast