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Speaker 1: Ah Beat Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

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Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software a Gradio, Special Operations,

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Speaker 1: Military news and straight talk with the guys and the

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Speaker 1: community Software Radio on Time on Target. This show is

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Speaker 1: there on air Drop. Jack Murphy is in Europe this show,

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Speaker 1: uh seeing his wife Benny. He'll be back next show,

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Speaker 1: but we have a lot We have Eric Barlson coming

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Speaker 1: in studio. But before we get to that, you guys

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Speaker 1: might remember Michael Behannah from episode eight and more recently

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Speaker 1: in the news, Michael Behanna has been granted a full

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Speaker 1: parton by President Trump. So I reached out to Vicky Behannah,

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Speaker 1: his mother, uh, to talk about that, and I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: dial here up right now and we're gonna get started

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Speaker 1: with that. On with us is Vicky Behenna, the mother

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Speaker 1: of First Lieutenant Michael Behannah, who has been pardoned by

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Speaker 1: President Trump just recently on May six. For those unfamiliar

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Speaker 1: with the story, we had Michael back on episode eight eight.

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Speaker 1: I've spoken to Vicky uh for many years prior to that.

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Speaker 1: Michael was granted parole and released on March fourteen, ended

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Speaker 1: up serving just under five years of his fifteen years

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Speaker 1: sentence in killing no On terrorist Ali Monsor Mohammed, who

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Speaker 1: he saw kill UM members on base while he was there.

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Speaker 1: And Uh, I just wanted to get the reaction of

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Speaker 1: of you to this full pardon and actually, what's been

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Speaker 1: going on over these past three years or really four years,

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Speaker 1: it's been a while, come and thanks for it that

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Speaker 1: I'm looking has been five years, uh since Michael has

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Speaker 1: been home, and just how how that's been for you

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Speaker 1: and the family. And everything right. Well, I mean, obviously

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Speaker 1: we were elated in March fourteen when he was paroled

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Speaker 1: to come home. Um. Since then, I mean, Michael has

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Speaker 1: continued with what he wanted to do when he was

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Speaker 1: in level worth of that is ranching. So he's been

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Speaker 1: working on a cattle ranch and then he has his

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Speaker 1: own goat farm where he raises goats. Um uh, yes,

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Speaker 1: so he's he's been enjoying, i think, just being outside

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Speaker 1: and enjoying nature and open spaces. And then, um, we

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Speaker 1: started working on the pardon. As you can imagine, as

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Speaker 1: soon as he came home, we had to redo the application. Um,

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Speaker 1: when there was a change in presidence, So we did

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Speaker 1: that in early with that been now fifteen. Oh I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: that would have been six I'm sorry, yeah, because Trump

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Speaker 1: was then in office. Makes sense, yes, but yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, we we've we weren't sure when or if

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Speaker 1: the pardon would happen, and then got word, of course

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Speaker 1: last week that the President had pardoned Michael. So we're

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Speaker 1: very happy. I'm very grateful. What I'm wondering is, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure that there are just countless members, are accountless people

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Speaker 1: that the president gets asked about pardoning. Do you have

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Speaker 1: any idea of how this came across his desk and

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Speaker 1: how this became a priority for him. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we were, um, you know, contacting

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Speaker 1: everybody that we thought might have, um, you know, a

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Speaker 1: way to contact the president. I just felt that if

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Speaker 1: if he was made aware of Michael's case, UM, that

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Speaker 1: he would you know, be sympathetic and have some empathy

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Speaker 1: and give Michael a fresh start. So, you know, we

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Speaker 1: were contacting people here in Oklahoma. We had a law

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Speaker 1: firm in Washington, d C. That was working their ind

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Speaker 1: on Washington, d C. Inside the built way, trying to

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Speaker 1: get the president to or try to get this to

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Speaker 1: his attention so he would see the case. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what actually worked. You know what I was curious

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Speaker 1: about and I mentioned this last episode and it was

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Speaker 1: just me purely speculating because I don't I don't know

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Speaker 1: anything about this, and you obviously know more. But this

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Speaker 1: is really the first president that talk radio has kind

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Speaker 1: of had the ear of. And that's how I found

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Speaker 1: out about Behannah's case was through Michael Savage talking about it,

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Speaker 1: and there were various other talk radio show hosts that

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Speaker 1: that discussed this matter. It wasn't really discussed in the

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Speaker 1: mainstream media while Michael was in Fort Leavenworth. So I

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Speaker 1: was curious if maybe someone on talk radio got to

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Speaker 1: speak to the President and say, hey, this is a

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Speaker 1: big issue and people would be on board with partnering

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Speaker 1: this man. Yeah, I mean it could have' I just

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, I mean, we we When

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Speaker 1: the President called and talked to Michael, he didn't explain

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Speaker 1: how it is that this his case came to his attention.

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Speaker 1: So who knows. Like I said, for the past um

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Speaker 1: really five years, since Michael has been home, we've been

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Speaker 1: talking to people about We knew we wanted to file

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Speaker 1: an application the Pardon Office and trying to get Michael pardon.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he was even we were even asked last

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Speaker 1: year when we were before the Army Clemency U Parole

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Speaker 1: Board if we were going to ask for a pardon

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Speaker 1: for Michael. So I think a lot of people knew that, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, we were wanting to go that route. I

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Speaker 1: just don't know what the trigger was. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what who or what or how it happened. Interesting, So,

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Speaker 1: did you and Michael get to possibly meet the President. No, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: he called Michael, um a we could go Monday. He

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Speaker 1: called him on the phone and told him and that

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Speaker 1: he was giving him a pardon. That must have been crazy, though,

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Speaker 1: getting a call from President Trump, I mean, especially unexpectedly

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Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I mean, he tells the story that

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Speaker 1: he was actually on the phone talking to my husband

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Speaker 1: his dad, and um, he got a call and let

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Speaker 1: it just roll over the voicemail. And then when he

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Speaker 1: got off the phone call with my husband, he called

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Speaker 1: the number back and it was a two o two number,

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Speaker 1: and um, a person by the name of Molly answered

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Speaker 1: the phone and said that she was with President Trump's

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Speaker 1: office and and Michael said, you know, somebody just left

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Speaker 1: a message for me from this number, and she said, yes,

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Speaker 1: you know, the President would like to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: He's on the other line right now. Can he call

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Speaker 1: you back? Um? And Michael said, well, of course, and

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Speaker 1: call me back. And he just kind of, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: waited for the call. And about a minute later, the

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Speaker 1: President called him directly on his cell phone and was

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Speaker 1: just explained to him that he was granting him apart

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Speaker 1: that that's truly got to be unreal to get that

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Speaker 1: phone call it and it must feel like a true

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Speaker 1: center of redemption for him. Well, I think it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you could see Michael before and and after, I mean,

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Speaker 1: to me, it looks like a wait has been lifted

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Speaker 1: from him. I mean, he is so grateful for the

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Speaker 1: grant of mercy. I mean, really, that's what a pardon is.

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Speaker 1: It's an act of grace, and um, he feels I

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Speaker 1: think that he can, you know, kind of start a

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Speaker 1: new and um, you know, and I think that's how

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Speaker 1: he's looking at it. And then joint and I mean,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot more possibilities available to him now

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Speaker 1: and then we're available to him a week ago. So

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Speaker 1: he's just very grateful. Um, we don't know how his

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Speaker 1: case floated to the top, but he's very grateful it happened, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I believe it should have. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: are familiar with who we had on last episode, but

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Speaker 1: we had on Major Fred Galvin, who was the major

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Speaker 1: from the guys in mar Sock seven who were accused

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Speaker 1: of gunning down civilians in Afghanistan uh and was more

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Speaker 1: recently exonerated. And it is absolutely not what went down.

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Speaker 1: And we got interviews with him prior to that explaining

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Speaker 1: what really happened. And luckily, um, one of the congressmen

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Speaker 1: in South Carolina made an issue of this and was

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Speaker 1: able to get these guys names queered. But Fred Galvin,

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Speaker 1: when he's spoken about it in depth with us, was

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Speaker 1: saying that just having his name out there for these

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Speaker 1: war crimes was hurting his chances of things like getting

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Speaker 1: a job. And when you googled Fred Galvin, people believed

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Speaker 1: he was a war criminal of some sort. And so

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Speaker 1: I'm just wondering from Michael, even though he was released

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Speaker 1: prior to the pardon, was there any issues that that

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Speaker 1: he came across in his own professional life. Well, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, first of all, Michael, having spent five years

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Speaker 1: in leaven Worth, had kind of decided in his mind

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Speaker 1: the last thing he wanted to do was work in

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Speaker 1: an office again, and he wanted to control his own

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Speaker 1: destiny a little bit better than it had been controlled before.

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Speaker 1: And so he wasn't really interested in applying for me

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Speaker 1: to go up. The background checks would be um taken.

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Speaker 1: But of course, you know, he wanted to volunteer at

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Speaker 1: a couple of of nonprofit organizations here in Oklahoma, and

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Speaker 1: when he started making inquiries, found out that they did

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Speaker 1: background checks. I mean even for him to be a

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Speaker 1: little league coach, which is what they're always needing, and

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Speaker 1: particularly where Michael's living living right now, Um, he couldn't

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Speaker 1: qualify to be a little league coach or volunteer for

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Speaker 1: some of these nonprofit organizations because of his background. And

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Speaker 1: so now with the pardon, uh, you know, he's hoping

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Speaker 1: that that that will give him more opportunities to do

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Speaker 1: that kind of work and to serve, which is what

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Speaker 1: he's wanted to do anyway. I mean, that's why he

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Speaker 1: volunteered to serve his country. That's just kind of his spirit. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if this is going to be the first

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Speaker 1: of many pardons like this for President Trump. You know,

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Speaker 1: it would just be speculating from both of our parts.

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Speaker 1: But Jack Murphy, the co the other host of this show,

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Speaker 1: was saying on the last episode that he thinks, um

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Speaker 1: Eddie Gallagher, Chief Eddie Gallagher, which I'm not sure if

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Speaker 1: you're familiar with the case. He believes he could see

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Speaker 1: Trump pardnering him before his reelection. Yeah. Well, and you

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Speaker 1: know that's one of the things I think that Michael

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Speaker 1: wants to make sure, uh, the President understands and others,

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Speaker 1: and that is that there are men still in love

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Speaker 1: and worth. I mean, Clint Lawrance and John Hatley are

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Speaker 1: still in love and worth for incidents that occurred when

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Speaker 1: they were serving their country in Afghanistan. And I lack.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's one of the things I speak

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Speaker 1: to a lot of organizations here in Oklahoma, and I

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Speaker 1: try to help people understand what I perceive is a

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Speaker 1: rush to judgment when it comes to service members and

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Speaker 1: combat and I just think that we need to relax

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Speaker 1: and get a little bit more benefit as a doubt,

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Speaker 1: when we're talking about combat soldiers and marines who are

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Speaker 1: trying to make calls life and death calls in a

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Speaker 1: combat zone, and I just think we judge those men

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Speaker 1: and now win them far too harshly. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 1: know a lot of people would agree with you. I mean,

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Speaker 1: when we talked about this last time, which was now

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Speaker 1: five years ago, which is hard to believe, I remember

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Speaker 1: Jack saying that sometimes it's treated as if these decisions

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Speaker 1: are made from like the starship enterprise. That's not the

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Speaker 1: way it works in the heat of war. No, No,

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Speaker 1: And it's so easy, I think in the comfort and

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Speaker 1: security of our own homes in towns, you know, the states,

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Speaker 1: to say well, you shouldn't have done it like that.

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Speaker 1: You know, I understand that sitting in the comfort and

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Speaker 1: safety of our homes, but you know, unless we walk

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Speaker 1: the walk and walk in the shoes of these soldiers

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Speaker 1: and marines, I just think it's not our time to judge. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know what they do there. And like I said,

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Speaker 1: Michael was really confirmed about John Hatley. John Hatley has

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Speaker 1: been in win O. We're ten years. I mean he

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Speaker 1: served his country nineteen and a half years. He was

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Speaker 1: the first sergeant of a company and he's still in

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Speaker 1: level Worth waiting for his release. Yeah. Well, how could

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Speaker 1: people do anything to help with those been that Michael

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Speaker 1: is concerned about. I would love people to write letters

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Speaker 1: to the president. Has had to be a long letter,

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Speaker 1: but just the letter. Sam. Please look at the other

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Speaker 1: soldiers who are currently in level Worth and again that's

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Speaker 1: Flint Lawrence and John Hatley. Derek Miller, who has been

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Speaker 1: a soldier that's been there I think pretty close to

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Speaker 1: nine eight or nine years, is thank god, going to

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Speaker 1: be released on twenty. But in addition to the two

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Speaker 1: that are still in Love and word, remember we had

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Speaker 1: the eleven, wor ten. Most of those gentlemen now are

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Speaker 1: home with their families, they've been paroled, but they still

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Speaker 1: had the stigma of a murder conviction. Um. And so

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Speaker 1: you know, these again are good men that made judgment

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Speaker 1: calls in a combat zone that somebody has said that

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't have done that. But they're all good men.

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Speaker 1: They're they're not troublemakers. They're all working, supporting families and

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Speaker 1: trying to move on with their life. And we would

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Speaker 1: love to see pardons for all of those men as

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Speaker 1: well who are currently out but still under you know,

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Speaker 1: the the cover of a felony conviction like that while

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Speaker 1: serving their country. Yeah, well said. And I really appreciate

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Speaker 1: taking the time and coming on with us, because this

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Speaker 1: story is at least for you guys, luckily and thankfully

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Speaker 1: over that this is a chapter that you can put

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Speaker 1: behind you. And I'm very grateful that the President did this,

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Speaker 1: just as someone who followed the story. And Michael was

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Speaker 1: definitely a source of inspiration for myself when I was

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Speaker 1: going through tough times, just thinking that what he was

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Speaker 1: going through is far worse than anything you or I

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Speaker 1: have seen. And uh, this is well deserved. So thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for for taking the time and giving

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Speaker 1: us this update and and luckily putting you know, an

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Speaker 1: happy ending to this very dark chapter for for your family. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I mean it feels like you said, this chapter is

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Speaker 1: now closed, that you know, the fight for us doesn't end.

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Speaker 1: As I said, there are still um eight men that

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Speaker 1: have soe many convictions on them while they were serving

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Speaker 1: their country, and two men and there's still a level worse.

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Speaker 1: So we'll continue to work to to help those families

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Speaker 1: and those men um at least be granted mercy and

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Speaker 1: the ability to have a fresh start. Yeah. Absolutely, well,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much, Vicky. Thank you for taking the

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Speaker 1: time and coming on with me, and I know our

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Speaker 1: audience is going to appreciate it, and thank you for

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Speaker 1: reaching out to me and sharing Michael's story over the years.

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Speaker 1: To thank you absolutely, Thank you so much and stay

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Speaker 1: in touch. Great having Vicky Behannah on and like I said,

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Speaker 1: it's just a great ending to a really dark period

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Speaker 1: for her for her family, and I'm really honored that

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Speaker 1: I've spoken with her several times and also got the

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Speaker 1: chance to speak to Michael with Jack and you can

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Speaker 1: listen back to that an episode eighty eight with Eric

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Speaker 1: Burlson coming on, former Green Beret. Really excited for that.

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Speaker 1: But before we get to it, be sure to check

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313
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Speaker 1: dot com. By the way, for those not in the know,

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Speaker 1: we have our own software radio app you can download

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316
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,400
Speaker 1: softwarep radio dot com, where you can see our full

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Speaker 1: archive shows, including episode eighty eight where we had Michael

318
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Speaker 1: Behan on as always keep up with us at SOFTWAREP

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Speaker 1: Radio as well. And with that, Eric Barlson is about

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Speaker 1: to enter this studio, so let's get right over to

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Speaker 1: him joining us in studio as promised. Eric Burlson, author

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Speaker 1: of Separating from Service, the Mental Health Handbook for Transitioning Veterans,

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Speaker 1: was just released earlier this year. UH, and your background

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Speaker 1: is in Special Forces as an assistant Operations and Intelligence

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Speaker 1: sergeant from two thousand five to two thousand thirteen. And

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Speaker 1: the first thing off the bat is Jack was kind

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Speaker 1: of disappointed he couldn't be in studio for this because

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Speaker 1: he's in Europe. So how do you and Jack know

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Speaker 1: each other? We actually went through the Q course around

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Speaker 1: the same time and cross paths a number of times,

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Speaker 1: and then both served in fifth Special Forces Group UM.

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Speaker 1: I was there from seven to thirteen, so oh five

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Speaker 1: O seven and the Q course and then seven to thirteen,

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Speaker 1: first as a communications sergeant, later as an intelligence sergeant

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Speaker 1: and UM and so I'd run into him from time

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Speaker 1: to time UH in in schools or or at the

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Speaker 1: UH group reunion things like that. Very cool. You tend

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Speaker 1: to see the people that you went through the Q course,

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Speaker 1: like just run into him randomly. I've actually probably awesome stories.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure I have some of the most random stories,

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Speaker 1: like running into guys and coffee shops overseas and you're like,

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Speaker 1: I know you from a place, and then we ended

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Speaker 1: up going through like Phase two together or something bizarre

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Speaker 1: how that happens. But that's awesome, man. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: he wanted to be here, and he was actually the

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Speaker 1: person who was like, we gotta get Eric Barlson on,

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Speaker 1: and then you know, his schedule just got kind of

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Speaker 1: all over the place. But with that, before we get

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Speaker 1: into the book itself, i'd love to hear about your

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Speaker 1: background in the Army and how you became a member

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Speaker 1: of Special Forces in Green Beret. Yeah, so I started.

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Speaker 1: So I grew up in Texas. I grew up in

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Speaker 1: North Texas and the DFW Metroplex and went to school

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Speaker 1: at the University of North Texas. While I was there,

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Speaker 1: I dated a woman whose uncle was green and I

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Speaker 1: always wanted to serve. I always wanted to join the Army.

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Speaker 1: UM and I talked to him and just just learned

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Speaker 1: a lot more about the Special Forces and I kind

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Speaker 1: of fell in love with their mission. This whole um

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Speaker 1: romantic notion of the guerrilla warrior and training, equipping and

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Speaker 1: leading foreign foreign soldiers really appealed to me. It was

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Speaker 1: more cerebral and more social and and sort of more

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Speaker 1: personabal than than just like the the typical infantry route. Right. Um,

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Speaker 1: not to say that those aren't social environments in terms

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Speaker 1: of like the people that you're serving with in in

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Speaker 1: your unit, but um, this was much more empowering for

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Speaker 1: the communities in which we were operating. I had this

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Speaker 1: idea that we were going to be helping people help themselves,

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Speaker 1: and that sort of narrative really appealed to me. I

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Speaker 1: feel like, just as an outsider, the guys that I

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Speaker 1: meet who were Special Force just tend to be the

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Speaker 1: guys who could speak different languages and get more embedded

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Speaker 1: in the culture. Yeah. Yeah, there there is definitely, um,

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Speaker 1: sort of a social intelligence that has to come with it. Um.

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Speaker 1: He actually gave me some very sound advice that I

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Speaker 1: totally ignored, which was to go into the range of

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Speaker 1: regiment first and really learn how to patrol and really

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Speaker 1: learn how it, which is what Jack did. And um,

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Speaker 1: and looking back, I think that if I could do

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Speaker 1: things differently, that might have been a different path and

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Speaker 1: and it's one that I recommend to young people that

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Speaker 1: I want to go into Special Forces, like, go cut

383
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Speaker 1: your teeth someplace else. It's a little better suited for

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Speaker 1: uh young warriors to to grow up a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Um SF isn't really the place for that. And when

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Speaker 1: I went through s F, I was older in a

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Speaker 1: little more mature in some ways and not quite mature

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Speaker 1: in some other ways. It really took some reflections, particularly

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Speaker 1: after I separated, to to understand uh UM where I

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Speaker 1: brought some immaturity that that caused some discomfort for me

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Speaker 1: and my peers as I was going through the Q

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Speaker 1: course and as I was going through UM my military career, right,

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Speaker 1: But but it was a very positive experience, and it

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Speaker 1: was a really transformative experience. I'm going into Special Forces.

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Speaker 1: I took on a lot more responsibility, and I took

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Speaker 1: on there was a lot more gravity to what I

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Speaker 1: was doing that really appealed to me. I really felt

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Speaker 1: like I was making a difference, and I'm very proud

399
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Speaker 1: of my service for UM, the things that I affected

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Speaker 1: and the people that I worked with. So, since this

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Speaker 1: book is about transitioning and I was reading through it,

402
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Speaker 1: what was the decision where you decided to retire from

403
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Speaker 1: service and and go do something else and conquer new goals.

404
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Speaker 1: So I'll be totally blunt for your readers or for

405
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Speaker 1: your listeners, excuse me. I when I was UM in

406
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Speaker 1: Special Forces, that was my second trip to Iraq, and

407
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Speaker 1: I was on a team that there wasn't a great fit,

408
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Speaker 1: there wasn't a great dynamic. I ended up leaving that

409
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Speaker 1: team on that deployment, and I it was really struggling

410
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Speaker 1: to to find my place UM and later, like the

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Speaker 1: very next month, my father died by suicide, and my

412
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Speaker 1: UM my company, UM, I think they just didn't really

413
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Speaker 1: know what to do with me at the time. They

414
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Speaker 1: didn't they weren't going to put me on another team,

415
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Speaker 1: and I was. I was really struggling and really overwhelmed

416
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Speaker 1: with what was happening with my family. And they ended

417
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Speaker 1: up moving me to another team and a sister company,

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Speaker 1: and I really thrived on that team. I worked really

419
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Speaker 1: well with everybody on there. I developed some really close

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Speaker 1: friendships and UM I went on a deployment that for

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Speaker 1: which I was very proud. But that whole transition period

422
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Speaker 1: coincided with a number of suicides in group, and UM

423
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Speaker 1: I started having suicidal ideation and it was really an

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Speaker 1: extremely difficult and painful time in my life. And basically

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Speaker 1: it came down to I need to take care of myself.

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Speaker 1: I really need to address all this and I can't

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Speaker 1: do it and be fully supportive of my team, um

428
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Speaker 1: without doing this. At the same time, when when my

429
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Speaker 1: dad died, I was looking into business school, was looking

430
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,719
Speaker 1: into graduate school, and already starting to study for the GMAT,

431
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: which is the test to get into business school. I

432
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 1: performed very very well on that, and so it wasn't

433
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: just a question of running away from something that was

434
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: at the moment very difficult for me. I had an

435
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 1: opportunity to take advantage of to change my life and

436
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: change the trajectory of my life. That makes sense, So

437
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 1: that may it makes sense why this issue is so

438
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 1: important for you. And the thing is that it also, UM,

439
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 1: I get why you jumped right into something new, because

440
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 1: you probably have so much time in your head and

441
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: over analyzing these types of things that you do have

442
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: to I would imagine jump right into something else as

443
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,239
Speaker 1: opposed to just having time to yourself to Although you

444
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 1: advocate for things like therapy in this book, you probably

445
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: need some type of an outlet. Yeah, so there's so

446
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you use that word over analyze, because

447
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 1: there's there's a big difference between sitting and thinking and

448
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: ruminating and getting yourself trapped in a cycle and processing

449
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: through uh, lots of different emotions and processing through lots

450
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: of different options to come to an ideal situation. Right,

451
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 1: Like um, time can improve decisions, but only if you're

452
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 1: actually working to to look at things and reframe the

453
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 1: way that you're looking at things in a way that's

454
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: going to lead to better decision making, right. And that's

455
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: not a process that happens naturally. It takes a lot

456
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: of work, and a therapist can walk one through that work,

457
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: um most easily. Frankly, I mean a lot of the

458
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: things that we need to do as people in order

459
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: to grow up, in order to process our emotions, in

460
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: order to deal with our baggage. I like to call

461
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: it checking our baggage. Um. You can do on your own.

462
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: It's not like psychology invented maturing, right. Uh. Those things

463
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: have happened and have traditionally happened with a variety of

464
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: different means. What a therapist can do is help you

465
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,719
Speaker 1: do it with less pain. Help you do it with

466
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: um less struggle. I liken a lot of the growth

467
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: that comes from therapy and from personal development with working

468
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: out in the gym, because there are a lot of parallels, right,

469
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 1: Like you can go to the gym and you can

470
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: pick up some weights and you can get stronger in

471
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 1: a lot of different ways, is right without ever hiring

472
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: a personal trainer. But those who have worked with personal

473
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: trainers to establish good form, establish a good routine, UH,

474
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: really understand where they need to change their workout and

475
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: when tend to see their growth happen much faster and

476
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: and with a lot less just like pitfall kinds of struggles.

477
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: So at what point did you because it sounds like

478
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: you've had experience with it, and as I said in

479
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 1: the book, you advocate for therapy, at what point did

480
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: you jump into therapy? Uh? When I separated, I'm laughing

481
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: because um I in two thousand thirteen, um I deployed

482
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: to Saudi Arabia for a few months. When I came

483
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: back a week later, I got married to my wife. Uh.

484
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: The week after that was my last day at work

485
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: in the army, and then I had three months of

486
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: transition lead and so we went on a three month

487
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: honeymoon to Spain. When we came back, my wife was

488
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: pregnant with our first lot of things. The week after that,

489
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: I started business school. So in a twelve month period,

490
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: I was in Saudi Arabia, separated from the army, moved

491
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: from Kentucky to Texas, spent three months in Spain, started

492
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: business school, and had a child. So here's a pro tip.

493
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:30,479
Speaker 1: Don't do that, like throwing all of these different changes

494
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: in your life all at the same time. Like it

495
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: it made me feel like you can rip off the

496
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: band aid. But it was extremely painful. I was in

497
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: a new marriage, I was working ninety hours a week

498
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: on business school, UM, I was a new parent. My

499
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: body started reacting to to this new environment in UM

500
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: kind of painful ways. I have a chronic back injury

501
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: and a hip injury and a lot of those I

502
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: didn't realize how it was compensating for them in the military,

503
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: and like outside of that structure, I started experiencing a

504
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:10,719
Speaker 1: lot more pain. So that needed UM more yes, in

505
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: the sense that it's from UM repetitive stress and a

506
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: lot of workout stuff and UM and then like just

507
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: body armor and kid and jumping around and all that,

508
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: And I'm kind of a small frame guy, so it

509
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: affects my body differently than it might a larger frame guy.

510
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: But UM, basically the gist of it is that with

511
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: all of that going on, I my thoughts kept getting

512
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: darker and darker. And um, that was when I really,

513
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: um focused on finding the right therapist. I had the

514
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: wrong therapist twice before I landed on the guy that

515
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: I've been seeing for the past four or five years now. UM,

516
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: and that was really painful too, Like I just wasn't

517
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: getting what I needed out of it. They weren't really

518
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: well equipped to deal with veterans issues. They weren't really

519
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: well equipped to deal with someone who was a little

520
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: more older. Um, who was a little older and who

521
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: was a little bit more mature and who I just

522
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: needed a different kind of engagement, you know. And UM,

523
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: what I found as I was going through therapy was that, UM, first,

524
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: I'm just naturally very curious person, very inquisitive. I want

525
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: to understand what's happening, We understand what we're talking about.

526
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: I want to understand these things, and I want to

527
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: go off on my own and sort of confirm what

528
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: I'm learning with like independently, right, And so there are

529
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: times when I'd go through like a growth period where

530
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: things are really I'm really struggling. I'm having these intense

531
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: dreams and I'm processing some old emotion. What the hell

532
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: is going on here? Like why am I thinking about

533
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: these things in this different way? Why why is this

534
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: a difficult period for me when previously I hadn't been

535
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: or or why is this new thing suddenly popping up?

536
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: And so I started doing research on what was happening

537
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: with my mind and with my brain, and like trying

538
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: to reconcile those things. I think a lot of people

539
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: don't understand the difference between those, Like the brain is

540
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: the the the matter, right, It's like that that's the

541
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: blood and the cells and the tissue and everything that

542
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: make up this thing that comprises us. Uh. The mind,

543
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: by contrast, is a process that the brain and the

544
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: nervous system go through. And so to optimize the mind,

545
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: what you're thinking of is optimizing the process. And you

546
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: can't optimize the process without un understanding how the brain works.

547
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: And so there are these like sort of complementary ideas

548
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: that I had to pass through about based fundamentally and

549
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: how the brain works, and then like moving from there

550
00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: into um, what I needed to do to to make

551
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: my mind function the way that I wanted it to,

552
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: which was to not continually bring up really painful experiences

553
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: in like mundane day to day life. Right. Um, that's

554
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: problematic for most people, Like that's that's an expression of

555
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: PTSD and of of trauma that is really disruptive to

556
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: people's day to day living. Um, but why does it happen?

557
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: Why do we do this? Why is my mind doing this?

558
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: And that can be really frustrating question until you start

559
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: realizing why the brain sort of embedded those traumatic experiences

560
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: in the first place, because it's biologically useful. You know,

561
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: if you're h tribe man Johnny walking through the jungle,

562
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: right and you come across a tiger and like you

563
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,959
Speaker 1: see tiger tracks, you see tiger marks on the tree,

564
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: and you see a little bit of orange there in

565
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: the grass, um, and then have a near death experience

566
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: the tiger. Your brain is going to be like, wow,

567
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: that was intense. Uh, let's start looking for those things.

568
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 1: And then I'm gonna queue you up with this intense

569
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: feeling every time I see tiger tracks or tiger marks

570
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: or anything orange in the jungle. Right, even if it's

571
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: an orange, even if it's something that's uh, you know,

572
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: possibly beneficial and really good for you, you may see

573
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: this thing and suddenly have this intense experience because your

574
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: brain has told you this is important for you to

575
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: pay attention to. This is a survival thing, right. I

576
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: call this resonant experiences. You know, whenever you play a

577
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: piano and a guitar is nearby, and the guitar strings rattle,

578
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: they vibrate, right because they're on the same frequency. That's

579
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: loosely what's happening. Whenever you have an intense experience with

580
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: something that is not directly related to what's happening right

581
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: that moment, Which, by the way, is what separates this book,

582
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: separating from Service from a lot of books about veteran transition,

583
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 1: is that you do go into the neuroscience of things

584
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: pretty in depth. Uh. And it's got a lot of

585
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: practical advice that I even think someone like me who

586
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: is not a veteran, could use about, because we all

587
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: go through different things about who it's okay to open

588
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: up with and who it's not okay to open up

589
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: with and talk about. You know, maybe the family member

590
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,760
Speaker 1: you trust as opposed to someone that you just met.

591
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 1: And I get that. It's I think it's practical advice

592
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: for all different people when they wanted to ask you

593
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: about those you know. For you, coming from the perspective

594
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: of someone who studied this, who studied the neuroscience, who

595
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: put out this book, there's definitely less of a stigma

596
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: now about seeing a therapist, about finding ways to get

597
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: over PTSD. Yet we're still having twenty two or approximately

598
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: twenty two suicides today. It's still a major issue. Why

599
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: are we not decreasing this when the aware there's definitely

600
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: awareness there. Uh, there's definitely less of an issue of

601
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: you know, guys thinking that it's that it's not tough

602
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 1: to go see a therapist or work things out in

603
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: a different way, and yet we still haven't made that

604
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: much progress. Yeah, so I have some opinions about this,

605
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: and um, a hundred percent sure that people are going

606
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: to disagree with me on this. However, there's a couple

607
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: of reasons. One people think of therapy and going to

608
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: see a therapist is something one something one should do

609
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: when they're in crisis. Uh, and that's a really difficult

610
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: time to do it. Okay, if if you are, um,

611
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: if you're lifting weights, right, the worst time to ask

612
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: for a spot or is when you're actually holding your

613
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: math however, many hundreds of pounds at your max right, uh.

614
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: And the worst time to enlist a personal trainer is

615
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: when you need a spotter under that weight right, like

616
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,240
Speaker 1: you're you're not going to be mid squat and saying,

617
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: pay personal trainer, guy, let's talk about your rates right

618
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: like that. That's that's not that's not a great time

619
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: at all. Um. And So the idea that we're going

620
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 1: to spend all of this money talking about crisis hotlines

621
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:14,399
Speaker 1: and talking about um getting help at the moment of crisis, UM,

622
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: I just think it's misplaced. It's utterly misplaced. Because if

623
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: if we are trying to address deep seated emotional and

624
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: psychological issues at the moment of crisis, the best thing

625
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 1: that we can do is divert the moment of crisis.

626
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 1: But how long is it going to be before that

627
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 1: it happens again? Yeah, it's totally abandoned. Um. And so

628
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 1: in order to to really decrease that, we have to

629
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 1: do something much much more systematic, much more broad, and

630
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: much more deep. And what that means is is not

631
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: just saying like, oh, you know, all these veterans are

632
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: are are in crisis, are going to be in crisis

633
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 1: on the verge of killing themselves. Let's force everybody into

634
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: UM therapy into hurt them Like that's that's not going

635
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 1: to be helpful either. In fact, that takes away people's

636
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: personal liberty. Um, that's going to I've seen proposals about

637
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,919
Speaker 1: people like automatically enrolling veterans into the v A and

638
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: having them proactively outreached the veterans, and I don't think

639
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: that really makes sense either, um, because there there are

640
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: some veterans who don't have these issues. Yeah, totally. And

641
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: more to the point, there are many veterans who are

642
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: not in crisis. And I'm not saying that every veteran

643
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: is going to get in crisis, but you can't necessarily

644
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: separate those like I don't know what the signals are

645
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: that a veteran is going to be in crisis in

646
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: a year, Like tell me those variables. You know. That's

647
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:45,280
Speaker 1: that's an incredible, incredibly complex topic. What you could do, however,

648
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 1: and this is really what this book is trying to address,

649
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: is talk about mental health from a baseline perspective, say like,

650
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: what what does health look like? Um, what are the

651
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: things that are not going to support how what is

652
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: healthy processing of emotions and traumatic traumatic experiences look like?

653
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: And what does transitioning look like healthily within different verticals

654
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: of one's life? And then you say, okay, we've got

655
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: this thing, um, and is a quick aside. Uh. One

656
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: thing that I realized with this book is that not

657
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: a lot of veterans are just going to go out

658
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 1: and buy it. And I realized that when I was

659
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 1: when I was just starting to write it, like, um,

660
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: that was not expected behavior. And um, this was sort

661
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: of validated when I launched this. I got thousands and

662
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: thousands of shares across social media, right, but not a

663
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: lot of individual people buying it. That tells me that

664
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: a lot of people are like, this is important, we

665
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: should definitely do this, but I don't know. But I don't.

666
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: I don't need it, right, So, UM, what I'm actually

667
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: trying to do is find organizations that already have a program,

668
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,760
Speaker 1: that already are working with veterans and transition includes military units,

669
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: um at the point of transition, that includes veteran service organizations,

670
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 1: universities that process a lot of veterans through private practitioners

671
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: and companies that have programmatic veteran transition programs, right like

672
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: I think of your sort of sort of corporate transition programs,

673
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,919
Speaker 1: and all of these have, uh, some kind of programmatic

674
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: way of teaching veterans how to read resume, how to

675
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: communicate their military experience into corporate speed that sort of thing. Um,

676
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: by including a mental health aspect, what they would do

677
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 1: is provide veterans a way to think about their own

678
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: mental health, to think about, um, what they're dealing with,

679
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: to think about what the transition is going to look like,

680
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: and even when they're having an intense experience, to be like, Okay, um,

681
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 1: this may not be really related to what's happening to

682
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: me right now. And like, just giving that additional idea

683
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,320
Speaker 1: that their brain and their mind is working in ways

684
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: that it was absolutely designed to but that are like

685
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: ill fitting in this new context can provide them the

686
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,479
Speaker 1: space to deal with those things and not be self

687
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: attacking or uh, not be lashing out at the world

688
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: around it. And those things are still going to happen

689
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: because we're all human and we get overwhelmed with things.

690
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: But um, the idea is to kind of reduce the

691
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 1: intensity and the stress of that. So by dealing with

692
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: these things upstream, and by interacting with organizations already have

693
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: transition programs and in incorporating this into those programs, will

694
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: be able to empower veterans to just better understand their health.

695
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: Very few people are going to go out and just

696
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: be like, you know what, I need some transition assistance

697
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: with respect to my mental like. Um, if they're going

698
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: to do that, they're going to go to a therapist,

699
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: and they should go to a therapist. Like that's a

700
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 1: much more focused and individual kind of process, and particularly

701
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: one that deals with veterans issues as a specialty in

702
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: their practice. However, Um, what they will do when their

703
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: program says, hey, this is part of our curriculum. Um,

704
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: you're going to read a chapter a week, we're going

705
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: to talk about it, you're gonna journal, we're gonna have

706
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: some group discussions. No big deal, you know, an hour

707
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 1: a week. Yeah, of course they're going to read it.

708
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 1: Of course they're going to incorporate it, and they're going

709
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: to do the thing. And ultimately that's what we need them.

710
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: We needed but do the thing, go through this process,

711
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:49,280
Speaker 1: think about it, be um, reflective about how their military

712
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 1: service has affected them and how um they can process

713
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: the things that were difficult for them about their service

714
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 1: and take the things about their service that can make

715
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: them really incredible workers and and spouses and parents, um

716
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 1: and bring those into their life consciously, not just defaulting

717
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: to what's worked in the military, but actually bringing those

718
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: things consciously into their day to day lives. A lot

719
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: of what you're saying is resonating with me, just as

720
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,280
Speaker 1: someone who's interviewed people in your position. You know Jack

721
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: for example, and he's very honest and open in his books.

722
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: I don't think he would mind me bringing this up.

723
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: But even at the beginning of his book, he actually

724
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 1: says that he goes out for lunch with another former

725
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: Green be a, Jim West, and he's telling him his story,

726
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: and Jim says to him, do you have some issues

727
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: of PTSD that you just haven't opened up? And I

728
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: think to Jackie's like, well, I've never, you know, thought

729
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: about killing myself or anything like that. I don't have

730
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: these issues. But as you said, that's like crisis mode.

731
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 1: And Jack has said to me before in private conversation

732
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: that there were times he jumped heavily into work where

733
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 1: it was like, I need to write a new book,

734
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,959
Speaker 1: I need to write all these articles. And he'll say

735
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: that that was kind of him covering up some of

736
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: these issues that he didn't sort out. And I think that,

737
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: as you're saying PTSD or post traumatic stress, it's it's

738
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: not automatically into suicidal thoughts. That's at the worst case scenario. Yeah,

739
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 1: it's funny. My my wife will be like, you're turning

740
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: on your army voice sometimes when when my kids are

741
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: overwhelming me and I start like I like get a

742
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: face and start shouting in a way that would be

743
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: totally normal on an O d A or on a mission,

744
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: and like not even in a stressful situation, just like

745
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: in the moment, because that's that's how we talk and

746
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: that's how we're operating in the moment. Right, Um, do

747
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: you scare the hell out of your kids? Yeah, totally,

748
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: it's uh. And so there's some repair that I have

749
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: to do afterwards in those kind of circumstances, you know,

750
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: and they're they're young kids and and um, they don't

751
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: need that. And h more to the point, like that's

752
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: not healthy behavior for me, and it's not actually serving

753
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: my interest, it's not actually getting me to where I

754
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: want to go. I mean, even when I was in

755
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: business school, UM, we'd be talking about these ideas and

756
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: I'd be like halfway down the like action path, like

757
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: let's let's talk about how to execute on this, and

758
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 1: it's like we haven't even really considered all of the

759
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: different options and like dealt with all these people's ideas,

760
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: and it would be really frustrating for me. And and

761
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 1: that sort of expression of um military action bias and

762
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 1: and like uh dismissal of what I thought were stupid

763
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: ideas in the moment, and and just just just like

764
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: really aggressive posture with basically everybody around me. It took

765
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: me a long time to kind of back off and

766
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: and um unpack for for for lack of a better word,

767
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: and a lot of those things we're sort of expressions

768
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 1: of UM. And you know, those particular examples I wouldn't

769
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: necessarily call those PTSD UM, but what we're definitely context driven. Yeah,

770
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: I was gonna say it logically makes sense because in

771
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: the capacity that you were in the military, you have

772
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 1: to make split, split second decisions, I mean, prior to

773
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:18,919
Speaker 1: bring you on. We just had Vicky Behenna on which

774
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're familiar with their son, Michael Behenna,

775
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: who was just pardoned by President Trump, where he, you know,

776
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: what he says, was in self defense, ended up killing

777
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: this known terrorists that he detained and wasn't supposed to.

778
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: It wasn't supposed to go down that way. And I

779
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: think the thing that people understand, and when we had

780
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: him on years back with Jack, Jack was saying, you know,

781
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,359
Speaker 1: these decisions in the military, remember him saying, aren't made

782
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 1: from the starship enterprise like, these are split second decisions

783
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: and you have to understand that in the heat of combat,

784
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: whether this person is guilty or not. And and for you,

785
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 1: I'm sure transitioning to the business world, these are decisions

786
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: that you can make within weeks or within months. And

787
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,240
Speaker 1: for you, you you just want to execute. And I get

788
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: why that would be in contact ex to where you've

789
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 1: been in your life. Yeah, for sure. Um, there are

790
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 1: so so, so so much of what I talk about

791
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 1: in the book. UM And by the way, I reference

792
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: PTSD very very rarely. It's not up to me to

793
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 1: decide who has and who who does not have PTSD. Right, Ultimately,

794
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: they can UM work with a professional to to make

795
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: that decision. However, what I do know is that the

796
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: military does a very good job of conditioning people to

797
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: a certain set of behaviors in a certain context. And

798
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 1: when you leave that context, everything changes, and um, that's

799
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: very difficult for a brain to manage. The brain uses

800
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: something like twenty of the energy of the energy that

801
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,720
Speaker 1: our body produces. Right, It's an enormous amount of energy

802
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: and a and a disproportionate amount of energy relative to

803
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 1: every other part of our body. Why that's matters is

804
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: because our brain has to change itself. It has to

805
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: be plastic, it has to structure itself according to familiar

806
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 1: stimuli so that doesn't waste more energy. It's so that

807
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,800
Speaker 1: it can be more efficient in making those decisions. Um.

808
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 1: After back proning, there's something called a mile in sheath

809
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 1: that drastically improves the connectivity between different neurons. UM and

810
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: those structures get built in according to the stimula around you. Well,

811
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 1: when you change that context, all of those structures are

812
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 1: built according to assumptions and fundamental context that no longer

813
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 1: are there, and so um, A lot of veterans will

814
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: talk about that. For the year after they separated they

815
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: just slept a lot. Everything was exhausting. It was exhausting

816
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 1: interacting with people, Like, yeah, you're using probably twice the

817
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 1: energy that you would have normally used with your brain,

818
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 1: just trying to deal with day to day life, just

819
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: interacting with people. Of Course you're more tired. Of course,

820
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 1: it's more stressful. Of course it's more difficult. And then

821
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: what plays into this neuroplashticity of the brand that you

822
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 1: talk about in the book is then veterans jump into

823
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: alcohol or other drugs, which make things even worse. Yeah. Absolutely,

824
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: when you're drinking or or using other drugs. And and

825
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: by the way, it's not just chemicals. There are lots

826
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: of ways to have this kind of escapist behavior, in

827
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 1: this kind of numbing behavior, video games, video games, sex,

828
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 1: even working out in some cases, like working yourself to

829
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 1: an exhaustion and to a to a sort of depleted

830
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 1: numb state. Uh. That that's another way that you can

831
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: numb yourself. And when you're going through these sorts of things, um,

832
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: and not allowing time for reflection and really sleep, Um,

833
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: you're not going to be able to process through this

834
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:49,399
Speaker 1: and you're just going to be stuck. Um. Yeah, So

835
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: it's it's um PTSD. However, is a special case, and

836
00:49:57,960 --> 00:49:59,439
Speaker 1: I want to address it just for a minute, because

837
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: a lot of people are going to be are going

838
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 1: to be thinking about when they're thinking of veteran mental

839
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:08,360
Speaker 1: health and and for good reason. Right. Um, So here's

840
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 1: a couple of facts that I'm gonna line up together

841
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,919
Speaker 1: to to give you an idea of the situation we're

842
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 1: going through. Right, Um, people from lower socio economic backgrounds,

843
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: not necessarily low, just lower, right think middle class, lower

844
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 1: middle class and im poor people are disproportionately likely to

845
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: experience trauma in their youth, some kind of trauma either

846
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: the parents splitting up, or there's abuse, or you know,

847
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: they lost a caregiver from for for one reason or another. Um,

848
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: people have just rougher childhoods. They have a lot more

849
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: sort of intense experiences. That's there's tons of evidence to

850
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 1: that out there in the world. Right. Additionally, the all

851
00:50:55,400 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: volunteer Army since the eighties disproportionately pulls from those same communities.

852
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,879
Speaker 1: Thank you follow me, Because there's not a draft, there's

853
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: large opportunities, there's college opportunities, lots of opportunity for people

854
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,760
Speaker 1: for for like upward economic mobility, right, good job training,

855
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 1: lots of great reasons for for those communities to come

856
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: into the military into an all volunteer army. It's not

857
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 1: true that it's dispersed across all strata in the country.

858
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 1: It disproportionately pulls from these communities, right. We also know

859
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: that UH, people who serve in the military with existing

860
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:45,800
Speaker 1: traumatic backgrounds are much much more likely several factors UH

861
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:50,479
Speaker 1: to experience PTSD from their military service. So what that

862
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 1: means is that since the all volunteer Army, the incidence

863
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: of PTSD has been higher. Why proportionally? I mean, just

864
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: looking it sort of the data that I lined out

865
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: it it's because we're pulling from a community that is

866
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 1: disproportionately more likely to have PTSD because of trauma that

867
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: they're disproportionately more likely to have. That makes sense that

868
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: I've never heard that expressed, Right, Like, all of these

869
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: things together kind of lead up to well, of course

870
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 1: we are because one, people are coming into the military

871
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 1: with more trauma. Then they're experiencing resonant experiences in the

872
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,439
Speaker 1: military that helped make them relive that trauma. Those get

873
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 1: more deeply embedded than when they transition out. They have

874
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 1: more baggage to deal with, and this isn't a life sentence, right.

875
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 1: This is something that they can absolutely deal with. It's

876
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: something that they could deal with earlier in in UH,

877
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 1: in the military, it's something that they could deal with

878
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 1: UM at the point of separation. But it's something that

879
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: they're going to have to deal with if they want

880
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 1: to grow as people and grow out of those kinds

881
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: of traumas. So the whole thing about PTSD is that, UM,

882
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: we should normalize it because in many ways, it's probably

883
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: pretty normal. Doesn't require combat, it doesn't require UM some

884
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:20,439
Speaker 1: some kind of like gunfight experience to embed a really

885
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 1: traumatic experience that then gets relived anytime you have kind

886
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:28,879
Speaker 1: of a resonant experience. UM. I am myself and am

887
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: guilty of this. I've criticized people who had really intense

888
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: emotional experiences for saying they were diagnosed with PTSD and like,

889
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: you didn't nearly die, you didn't UM go through combat,

890
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: you didn't you know, nobody was trying to blow you up.

891
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:46,320
Speaker 1: I've heard that a lot, and UH that was really

892
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 1: unfortunate and really UM insensitive of me because these are

893
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 1: people that did experience death. They were volunteers for Katrina

894
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 1: helping out in the shelters in Houston, and like people

895
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 1: were coming in injured and sometimes dying in those shelters,

896
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 1: and that's a really intense thing to go through. Excuse me,

897
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: it wasn't Katrina. It was it was the flooding down

898
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 1: in Texas. Right, Well, anyway, it doesn't it doesn't matter

899
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: exactly what the context was people. The point is in

900
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: New York during experience PTSD. Yeah, totally, I mean, it's it.

901
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 1: It's one of those significant emotional events, and particularly ones

902
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,760
Speaker 1: that deal with death and dying or like severe injury

903
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 1: or moral injury. UM, that's more likely to turn into it, right,

904
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: And so yeah, we we should totally normalize PTSD as

905
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: a thing. As a UM you know, you could probably

906
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,919
Speaker 1: think of it as something like your brain is doing

907
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 1: what it's supposed to do, but it's stuck in a

908
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: loop and you need some help to get out of

909
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: that loop and to to um like break the pattern

910
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 1: that makes the triggers overload your senses. Like I've I've oh,

911
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: here's here's one. UM. I've had experiences where I've been

912
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 1: driving where I'm on the highway and I kind of

913
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:17,839
Speaker 1: go back into being in a rack, and I'm I'm

914
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:21,359
Speaker 1: in a turret. I'm just like kind of imagining all

915
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 1: of those experiences right before. Um, like just just being

916
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:39,320
Speaker 1: in um that context and like feeling both aggressive and afraid,

917
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 1: you know, excited and vigilant, like every time you'd go

918
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:45,879
Speaker 1: out on a on a drive because everybody's getting blown

919
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: up or whatever. Then I'm driving down the highway in Austin,

920
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:54,760
Speaker 1: and I realized at some point that like I didn't

921
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: remember what was happening for the past two or three

922
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 1: minutes other WHOA, I was worlds away. And it's not

923
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 1: like I was, you know, driving like combat driving in

924
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 1: Iraq or like you know, making machine gunning like any

925
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 1: of the ridiculous Hollywood bullshit that you see for an

926
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: expression of PTSD. But I was totally just not there,

927
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 1: um And and that was an expression of of PTSD.

928
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 1: It was that whole like context and um. You know,

929
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 1: it was just enough my hands on the steering wheel,

930
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 1: feeling like a spade grip um driving down the road

931
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 1: like mildly um thick traffic in the heat of the day,

932
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 1: like all of that heat kind of coming on me

933
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: in waves. It was enough to to remind my brain

934
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 1: that this was an experience where I needed to be

935
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 1: really vigilant and really pay attention, and I I just

936
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 1: wasn't there for a few minutes. So in separating from service,

937
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:58,280
Speaker 1: you go into chapter by chapter basically the healthy waves

938
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: to deal with trauma, healthy ways to get into a

939
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,360
Speaker 1: new career and and make that transition for military life.

940
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 1: Did you personally take any of those unhealthy routes w

941
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 1: whether it be alcohol or drugs, prior to going through

942
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 1: it the right way? Oh? Yeah, for sure. So, especially

943
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 1: while it was in the military, I was a very

944
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: heavy drinker. Like I don't drink alcohol now, I haven't

945
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 1: for about, uh for a little over three years. Um,

946
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: I don't either. People break my balls constantly over it,

947
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: but I don't have like an issue or anything. I

948
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 1: just wasn't into it anymore. Yeah, for me, it was

949
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: really more about, Um, I just it's it's not doing

950
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 1: anything for me. And every time that I think that

951
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 1: I want to drink, I'm like, well, how do I

952
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: want to feel tomorrow in the day after that? And

953
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: who am I going to interact with? Like I may

954
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 1: not have the same I will get depression the next day.

955
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 1: Even from a beer, and I'm like, this isn't for

956
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: me anymore. So um, and I'll tell people like I

957
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 1: I met my quota in the army, and I probably

958
00:57:55,640 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 1: met your quota too. I met several people's like lifetime

959
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 1: quotas with my drinking while it was in the in

960
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 1: the army, So that was definitely one that I did.

961
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: I definitely isolated myself a lot. I definitely um, would

962
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 1: um not do the kinds of things. Wait right when

963
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 1: I separated, I would continue to exercise like I was

964
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: training for combat, and I mean it just wasn't really

965
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 1: serving me. I exacerbated some injuries and I definitely um,

966
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 1: I just didn't help myself out. And the sleep thing

967
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 1: was a really big issue. I was, um, not following

968
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 1: sleep hygiene. So so between drinking and not following sleep hygiene,

969
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: not eating well And what does that mean, by the way,

970
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 1: we're sleeping too little or too much or I was

971
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 1: sleeping too little in the quality of the sleep that

972
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 1: I was getting was very low because because of the

973
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: light that was around me, because of how I was

974
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 1: stimulating myself right before I went to bed, you know,

975
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 1: watching too much, uh, spending too much time in front

976
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 1: of a screen, like watching um, I mean, it doesn't

977
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 1: even matter what I was watching was and I like

978
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 1: watching sitcoms or whatever, and which is something all of

979
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 1: us could relate to, whether yeah totally or not. The

980
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: at the time, there was a lot of research going

981
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 1: into blue light and how it was stimulates your brain

982
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 1: and prevents you from falling into really deep sleep and

983
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 1: and UM, when I figured that out, I stopped using

984
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 1: screens like about an hour before i'd go to bed,

985
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:28,920
Speaker 1: or if I did use any screen, I'd use a

986
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 1: blue light filter on it so that it wasn't stimulating

987
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 1: me the same way. And that really changed the way,

988
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 1: really changed the quality of my sleep. I quit taking

989
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 1: uh any kinds of drugs to fall asleep, you know,

990
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 1: like Bena drill. A lot of people would do that

991
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 1: to to kind of make themselves drowsy, and it really

992
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 1: affects the quality of your sleep. You won't have nearly

993
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 1: as good run cycles. When I was researching sleep and

994
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 1: how the brain functions and how you process through UM,

995
00:59:56,440 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 1: process through emotions and process through psychological events, sleep is

996
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 1: the one like common theme you really need it in

997
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 1: order to to UM allow your brain to to restructure

998
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 1: itself into deal with those those emotions in those conditions,

999
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 1: and so um, really just taking like a handful of

1000
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 1: steps to help your body function the way that it's

1001
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 1: supposed to and to deal with those emotions is probably

1002
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: the most important thing you can do for your mental health. Like,

1003
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:31,960
Speaker 1: and it's so simple, right, Like treat yourself like you

1004
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 1: have the flu, lots of fluids, uh, lots of sleep,

1005
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 1: um eat well, you know, like even whenever you're you're

1006
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 1: you have the flu, you you try to um lean

1007
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: towards healthier and simpler foods, right um. And then journaling

1008
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: and um, what journaling looks like is gonna be a

1009
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 1: little bit different for for every person, but I try

1010
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:00,120
Speaker 1: to include a lot of prompts in the books so

1011
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 1: that you have like a starting off point you can

1012
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 1: just give a little bit of structure to your thoughts

1013
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 1: and you can can try and process them through. And

1014
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 1: you'll find that as you sleep, um, like you'll have

1015
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 1: some really wild dreams and then when you wake up

1016
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: things feel just a little bit different, and that can

1017
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 1: be a really powerful tool to too growing into getting

1018
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 1: through this whole transition process. I think that if if

1019
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 1: everyone were to follow just those few things in the

1020
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 1: first few months, after separation. It would do enormous good

1021
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 1: with respect to reducing veterans suicides and the number of

1022
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 1: veterans they get into crisis. Yeah. Just from my own

1023
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 1: personal experience, when you're going through anything tough in life,

1024
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 1: the feeling that I think all of us have, and

1025
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 1: it's the worst feeling, is that this feeling is gonna

1026
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 1: last forever. And that's what leads people to doing something

1027
01:01:57,560 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 1: so drastic, is taking their own life. And I think

1028
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 1: it's an important that people realize that through these steps,

1029
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 1: you're not going to feel like this forever. Yeah. Absolutely,

1030
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 1: And and in fact, you can make yourself feel a

1031
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:15,919
Speaker 1: lot lot better. Um, the simple act of writing, I

1032
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 1: feel like shit, and this feels like it's going to

1033
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 1: last forever. Um, I can't imagine not feeling like this.

1034
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 1: What could feeling differently feel like? What would I rather

1035
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 1: feel like? I'm in writing every one of those words.

1036
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 1: And by the way, physically writing it, not not on

1037
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 1: a screen, not on a keyboard, but pen and paper

1038
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 1: in hand. Um, that that alone will do a lot

1039
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 1: to reduce the intensity and to start making you think

1040
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 1: in different ways and um, directing your thoughts in creating

1041
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 1: different patterns for you because you'll often look back on

1042
01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:00,080
Speaker 1: it a week later in some circumstances and say it,

1043
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 1: I don't feel that way right now. Yeah, And um, actually,

1044
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 1: I very very rarely will revisit uh entries that I've

1045
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 1: made in my journal, just the act of writing them

1046
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 1: out and getting two different ideas. Um, well, we'll do

1047
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 1: a lot for me. Here's here's one that's really weird

1048
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 1: and it's kind of been now, but it's kind of

1049
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 1: serious too. I realized, Um, I traveled a lot for work,

1050
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 1: and UM, I realized a couple of years ago that

1051
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 1: every time I traveled, I had this like deep seated

1052
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 1: anxiety for my relationship with my wife, and it was

1053
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 1: it was really difficult for me to overcome this and

1054
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: and like not feel lonely and anxious and kind of

1055
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 1: stressed and like over eat or want to go out

1056
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 1: and drink, or or find something to do that's exciting

1057
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 1: to to distract myself, you know, all of which are

1058
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 1: are pretty common things for people to do whenever they're traveling.

1059
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:03,880
Speaker 1: But I was like, this is this feels more intense

1060
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 1: than it should. Like why am I feeling this? And

1061
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:10,680
Speaker 1: why do I feel hours after I've left my wife

1062
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:12,800
Speaker 1: for a couple of days on a business trip that

1063
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 1: I need to check in with her and see what's

1064
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 1: going on with her and and make sure everything's okay.

1065
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 1: And I realized that in the eight years that I

1066
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:26,840
Speaker 1: was serving UM, I almost never went on a trip,

1067
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:31,200
Speaker 1: either a deployment or a or a training trip and

1068
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 1: didn't lose a relationship because I was very rarely at

1069
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:39,480
Speaker 1: home at Fort Campbell when I was and I meet

1070
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 1: a woman that had wanted date, we'd go on a

1071
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 1: few dates, and then I would leave for a month,

1072
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 1: and like, it's hard to keep something up and it's

1073
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:48,880
Speaker 1: already keep a relationship. And I went through a lot

1074
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 1: of relationships like that where it's like, all right, well

1075
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,960
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be gone for three months and they're like yet,

1076
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 1: no deal, you know, And and that's fine, Like I'm

1077
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 1: that is a rational choice on their behalf. But it

1078
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 1: made for a really painful and difficult situation for me

1079
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:10,280
Speaker 1: where you probably feel unworthy. Yeah, I was experiencing a

1080
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:13,680
Speaker 1: lot of rejection, and more to the point, every time

1081
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 1: I was getting ready to go on on one of

1082
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 1: these trips, I started feeling anxious that I was going

1083
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 1: to to lose whatever relationship I was, and a lot

1084
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 1: of times I became a self fulfilling prophecy. So then

1085
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 1: even after I was married, had a strong, stable relationship,

1086
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 1: had spent a lot of time building, you know, a

1087
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 1: really good family life, that feeling was still persistent. And

1088
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 1: it took me just sitting down and writing like what

1089
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:42,000
Speaker 1: the hell am I feeling? What is going on with

1090
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 1: my mind? What is going on with my brain? Um?

1091
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 1: Why am I feeling? And why? And like as I

1092
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,120
Speaker 1: kind of broke down each later, what am I feeling?

1093
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 1: I'm feeling anxious and lonely? Um, Okay, you're alone, so

1094
01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 1: lonely is probably normal, But why are you feeling anxious

1095
01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: about that? Like what's the anxiety? Like, well, I feel

1096
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 1: like I feel like I'm going to lose my wife.

1097
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 1: Why do you feel like you're gonna lose your wife?

1098
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:12,200
Speaker 1: And like as I broke down and answered each of

1099
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 1: those questions like this is what I feel? Why do

1100
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:16,520
Speaker 1: I feel that? Well because of this? Is that true?

1101
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:21,680
Speaker 1: I don't know? Is it true? And and you're exploring

1102
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 1: deeper and you're making what is unconscious conscious until you

1103
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 1: get to some kind of absurdity, right like, oh, I'm

1104
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:32,840
Speaker 1: afraid my wife is going to leave me because I'm

1105
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:35,919
Speaker 1: away from home, Well, why would she leave you for? Well,

1106
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:37,720
Speaker 1: in the past, you know, I've been gone for six

1107
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: months or or you know, at least several weeks, and

1108
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 1: and there was never any time that I was going

1109
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 1: to stop on the horizon. That's not true anymore. You've

1110
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:48,640
Speaker 1: gone for like three or four days at a time,

1111
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 1: and it's not even necessarily consistent. And it's not somebody

1112
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 1: that can just bail on me. It's my wife. Like

1113
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,360
Speaker 1: we've got a mortgage together, kids are born together. Like

1114
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:02,240
Speaker 1: all these different conditions that were true before when I

1115
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:05,040
Speaker 1: was losing these relationships are no longer true when I'm

1116
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 1: in in this context. And it was just like, oh shit,

1117
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:12,400
Speaker 1: I can relax. I never had it again. Wow, that

1118
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 1: anxiety never happened again. I still feel lonely sometimes I

1119
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 1: still feel a little bit anxious because, um, well, leaving

1120
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: my wife at home with three small children is hard.

1121
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:30,440
Speaker 1: That doesn't always feel great. But the like anxiety I

1122
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:33,520
Speaker 1: have about the stability of the relationship and like the

1123
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:36,680
Speaker 1: intensity that I had just went away. Well, what I

1124
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 1: was gonna say is this is why you know in

1125
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 1: the book you talk about who it's beneficial to talk

1126
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 1: to about certain things, which is not beneficial to talk to.

1127
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:47,680
Speaker 1: And also keeping a journal. This all plays very much

1128
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 1: into that. I think of the fact that you were

1129
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:53,200
Speaker 1: able to map out these ideas because if you probably

1130
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 1: would have called your wife freaking out, that's not the

1131
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 1: you're treating someone. That's not the right way to go

1132
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 1: about things. I think to dump all this emotional energy

1133
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 1: onto your partner when it's not anything they did wrong.

1134
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:10,200
Speaker 1: This is really all on your head now. And um.

1135
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 1: We we did have some conversations, and it was a lot.

1136
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 1: By this point. It was like, look, I'm feeling these

1137
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 1: things that I'm not sure exactly why, and um, I

1138
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 1: think I just need to work it out and journal it.

1139
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:27,479
Speaker 1: Um I realized now that I had had you know,

1140
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:31,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it never manifested like aggressively. It was just

1141
01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:34,439
Speaker 1: I'd go on this trip and I call her and

1142
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:37,840
Speaker 1: be like, man, I really miss you, and um, I

1143
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:41,240
Speaker 1: feel funny and and I don't know if I'm gonna

1144
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:42,680
Speaker 1: be able to sleep. I just feel aunty and I

1145
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 1: need to go out or something. And and it was

1146
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:47,920
Speaker 1: just this like sort of unrest and and by the way,

1147
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 1: it takes a lot to open up and even say

1148
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:53,840
Speaker 1: that because your people would perceive you as this tough

1149
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:58,080
Speaker 1: guy who's army green beret, and this is you being

1150
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 1: open and being vulnerable. I'm really glad that you said that,

1151
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:03,360
Speaker 1: let's put a put in that for just a second, um,

1152
01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 1: so I can finish this thing. It took me saying

1153
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:08,880
Speaker 1: you know what, this is a thing that I've realized

1154
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:11,519
Speaker 1: now that I have felt many times before. I'm gonna

1155
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:13,519
Speaker 1: work on this. This is gonna be my focus for

1156
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:15,880
Speaker 1: the next couple of hours. And that and I I

1157
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:18,680
Speaker 1: started writing out and I started going through kind of

1158
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 1: some of the exercises that I talked about in the book,

1159
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 1: and and then it just went away and it was

1160
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 1: just not a big deal anymore. Um. But you're talking

1161
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 1: about vulnerability, and this is something that I talked about

1162
01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:36,760
Speaker 1: in the book. Um. We talk about the strong silent type.

1163
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:41,240
Speaker 1: We talk about, uh, what strength looks like, right, and

1164
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:44,799
Speaker 1: that persona the strong silent type. Many times those people,

1165
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:51,439
Speaker 1: UM cannot handle other people's emotions. You know, if if

1166
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:54,240
Speaker 1: there's a child crying, or if there's someone screaming, or

1167
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:57,080
Speaker 1: if there's a one that's feeling real emotional and she's crying,

1168
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 1: or anybody expressing really intense emotion. Uh, they don't want

1169
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:03,720
Speaker 1: to be around them. They're going to remove themselves, or

1170
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 1: they'll criticize, or they'll they'll put it down, Like what

1171
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:11,720
Speaker 1: is it about that that's making them uncomfortable and make

1172
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:14,880
Speaker 1: it unbearable for them? That doesn't speak strength to me.

1173
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:20,160
Speaker 1: To me, strength is being able to endure some kind

1174
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:23,200
Speaker 1: of discomfort, some kind of adversity. Right, to go back

1175
01:10:23,200 --> 01:10:30,799
Speaker 1: to the gym um situation, the gym analogy. Um, somebody

1176
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 1: that can consistently lift, await and carry it and deal

1177
01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:38,439
Speaker 1: with it and deal with that discomfort. Um, that's someone

1178
01:10:38,479 --> 01:10:40,479
Speaker 1: that you would think of is being strong. Right. If

1179
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:44,840
Speaker 1: you can be vulnerable and you can endure um, the

1180
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:49,640
Speaker 1: sort of discomfort and the intensity of those emotions. Um,

1181
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:55,560
Speaker 1: that's real strength. Right. Not not avoiding lifting because you

1182
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,240
Speaker 1: don't need it, because you feel like you're strong enough

1183
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 1: and don't need to spend any time growing in that way.

1184
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:06,280
Speaker 1: But somebody that actually engages it, is willing to endure

1185
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:10,800
Speaker 1: some discomfort in order to grow and in order to

1186
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:16,519
Speaker 1: serve the relationships and the life that they truly value. Yeah,

1187
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 1: one seems to be real strength and the other is

1188
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: like the perception of strength and and how you're being

1189
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:26,360
Speaker 1: perceived by others. Yeah, it's like it's like somebody saying, um,

1190
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:28,240
Speaker 1: I don't need to go to the gym because I'm

1191
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 1: plenty strong, and so they never go to the gym

1192
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,519
Speaker 1: and avoid any situation where they're going to have to

1193
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 1: exert strength. Right, It's like that's what so getting into

1194
01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:48,760
Speaker 1: the book itself of you know what you're doing now? Well,

1195
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:51,200
Speaker 1: first I'm wondering, actually, at what point did you say

1196
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:53,360
Speaker 1: that you wanted to put these thoughts on paper and

1197
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:55,720
Speaker 1: put a book out and help others, Because what I

1198
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:59,840
Speaker 1: was gonna say is that you've done an incredible job transition,

1199
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 1: I think, regardless of any pitfalls that you went through

1200
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:06,080
Speaker 1: as someone who's experienced the trauma that you've expressed just

1201
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:08,960
Speaker 1: speaking with me in this past few minutes to now

1202
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 1: working in the tech sector. How how did you make

1203
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:14,840
Speaker 1: that transition possible? And then also at what point did

1204
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:18,800
Speaker 1: you say I want to help others make that transition possible? Yeah,

1205
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:21,680
Speaker 1: So there was no real big bang moment um. I

1206
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:26,479
Speaker 1: think going to school was a really important part of

1207
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:30,759
Speaker 1: my transition personally. Um, remember whinning the army is with

1208
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:35,400
Speaker 1: with an undergrad degree? Uh? And I enlisted because that

1209
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:39,240
Speaker 1: got me straight into Special Forces, and um, never became

1210
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:41,800
Speaker 1: an officer after that. By the by the time it

1211
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:44,080
Speaker 1: might have made sense for me to become an officer,

1212
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 1: I was really too old to have a competitive career

1213
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:50,960
Speaker 1: and it just didn't make sense. Uh. But having that

1214
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 1: university environment, that transition environment, was really important to me

1215
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:59,360
Speaker 1: to make mistakes around people that we're going to look

1216
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:03,559
Speaker 1: out for me. Uh. I don't know why it occurred

1217
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:05,880
Speaker 1: to me to tell the woman that sat next to

1218
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 1: me in business school, like, Hey, I have no doubt

1219
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:11,080
Speaker 1: whatsoever that I'm going to say and do some stupid things.

1220
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:14,080
Speaker 1: So can you do me a solid and just like

1221
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:18,160
Speaker 1: keep me from doing it too big? You know, there

1222
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:19,840
Speaker 1: were a couple of times when I was like, I'm

1223
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:22,840
Speaker 1: about to tell them that they're stupid? Is that a

1224
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 1: bad idea? Yeah, that's a bad idea of like, but

1225
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:28,960
Speaker 1: they're stupid. She's like, yeah, but you just can't tell

1226
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:33,400
Speaker 1: them like that. Um. You know, it's kind of an

1227
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:36,120
Speaker 1: extreme example, but there were a lot of times when

1228
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:41,040
Speaker 1: when she kind of helped me better navigate all of

1229
01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:46,599
Speaker 1: this this kind of stuff. Um, and I'm digressing. So

1230
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:49,479
Speaker 1: so that environment was really important to me to to

1231
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:54,439
Speaker 1: UM deal with these things. Going to therapy was absolutely important.

1232
01:13:54,520 --> 01:14:00,360
Speaker 1: Quacking drinking. Uh. When I finally stopped drinking altogether, Like,

1233
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:04,400
Speaker 1: it totally changed my life with respect to my growth

1234
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:06,479
Speaker 1: and with respect to what I was able to endure

1235
01:14:06,479 --> 01:14:11,280
Speaker 1: and with which respect to UM, what I was able

1236
01:14:11,320 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 1: to just deal with in the way that I was

1237
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:15,640
Speaker 1: able to think, Like, it's not just in dealing in

1238
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 1: enduring discomfort. UM, we we tend to think of like

1239
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:29,439
Speaker 1: avoiding painful things as the goal. It changed my life

1240
01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:31,759
Speaker 1: and that I was able to see lots of things

1241
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:35,599
Speaker 1: that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise. UM. One

1242
01:14:35,600 --> 01:14:37,160
Speaker 1: of the analogies that I used in the book is

1243
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 1: is it's if we're paddling down a creek or a river,

1244
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:46,120
Speaker 1: you know, with lots of rapids around us, and I'm

1245
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:49,240
Speaker 1: paddling and I'm like, Wow, look at the clouds in

1246
01:14:49,280 --> 01:14:52,799
Speaker 1: the rainbow over those cliffs over there. Isn't that beautiful?

1247
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:56,320
Speaker 1: What a powerful moment. We're sitting here, you know, paddling

1248
01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:00,360
Speaker 1: and whoever, My counterpoint is, it's like, what of hell

1249
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:04,600
Speaker 1: are you doing? We're about to die. Why aren't you paddling?

1250
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:07,679
Speaker 1: We're going to die? There's all these rocks here. Shut

1251
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:11,040
Speaker 1: up with your stupid rainbow. I don't I have no

1252
01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:13,760
Speaker 1: idea what you're talking about. Like you know, and I

1253
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:16,839
Speaker 1: paddle a couple of different directions and like it's really beautiful.

1254
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:19,240
Speaker 1: You'll just have to trust me from them, right, Like

1255
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:21,920
Speaker 1: I came to the point where I could see that.

1256
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:24,240
Speaker 1: And of course there are other things that I'm struggling with.

1257
01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:26,080
Speaker 1: There are other ways that I'm growing. But this whole

1258
01:15:26,120 --> 01:15:29,960
Speaker 1: idea of awakening, like you differentiate, integrate, and you awaken.

1259
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:32,160
Speaker 1: Those are um sort of steps that I go through

1260
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:36,840
Speaker 1: in my book. But this awakening point is really important

1261
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:40,160
Speaker 1: because it's something that you gain from going through this process.

1262
01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:43,680
Speaker 1: It's it's additional space to think. It's it's it's additional

1263
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:47,880
Speaker 1: space to appreciate the things that matter most you in

1264
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:51,479
Speaker 1: life in the moment that you're experiencing them. It's not

1265
01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:54,080
Speaker 1: just oh, I'm not feeling as much discomfort and I

1266
01:15:54,080 --> 01:15:59,280
Speaker 1: can endure more. It's that, um, I enjoy life more.

1267
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:05,599
Speaker 1: I get to experience more. It's a richer experience. It's

1268
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:10,720
Speaker 1: it's like suddenly I can see more colors in in

1269
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:13,519
Speaker 1: lots of different places in my life. It's like suddenly,

1270
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:17,400
Speaker 1: I can um take a moment and get better outcomes

1271
01:16:17,439 --> 01:16:19,800
Speaker 1: because someone asked me a question and for a moment,

1272
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:21,800
Speaker 1: I think it's aggressive. I'm like, well, hold on a second,

1273
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:23,560
Speaker 1: why are you like I have an answer for you.

1274
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:25,080
Speaker 1: I'd like to deal with this, But why are you

1275
01:16:25,120 --> 01:16:27,519
Speaker 1: asking that? I'm not sure that that's the right question

1276
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:30,799
Speaker 1: you should be asking. So let me understand what outcome

1277
01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:34,479
Speaker 1: you're trying to get to and and let me help

1278
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:36,960
Speaker 1: you get to an answer that's going to to create

1279
01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:39,280
Speaker 1: that outcome for you, right, and being able to ask

1280
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:41,800
Speaker 1: those kind of questions and respond in that kind of

1281
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:46,559
Speaker 1: thoughtful and engaged way instead of just spitting off whatever

1282
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:48,720
Speaker 1: happens to occur to me in the moment whenever someone

1283
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:51,360
Speaker 1: asked that question. And that's a that's a real strength

1284
01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:57,240
Speaker 1: that's going to improve outcomes. And so um, yeah, going

1285
01:16:57,360 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 1: through that process of of um first having a safe

1286
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:08,160
Speaker 1: space to transition, and second being conscious about the way

1287
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:11,000
Speaker 1: that you go through all of this process. I think

1288
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:13,120
Speaker 1: those are those are really the most important things. And

1289
01:17:13,160 --> 01:17:17,240
Speaker 1: really be kind with yourself. I tell anybody when they

1290
01:17:17,280 --> 01:17:21,519
Speaker 1: go into therapy that they should expect no less than

1291
01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:27,479
Speaker 1: a year of consistent interaction with a mental health care

1292
01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:34,880
Speaker 1: provider before they really feel very different. Um, because it

1293
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 1: takes time. You have to build habits, you have to

1294
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:41,280
Speaker 1: build trust, get to a point where you feel safe

1295
01:17:41,320 --> 01:17:44,240
Speaker 1: being being vulnerable in front of this person. It's also

1296
01:17:44,320 --> 01:17:46,760
Speaker 1: not a great idea to be vulnerable with someone you

1297
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:50,240
Speaker 1: don't actually feel psychological safety with, like, even if nothing

1298
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 1: happens because of that, just that sheer exposure can be traumatic. Um,

1299
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:59,240
Speaker 1: And they should expect up to four or five years

1300
01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:04,439
Speaker 1: before they really feel like optimal, like things are really

1301
01:18:04,439 --> 01:18:08,000
Speaker 1: working very well and they're achieving a lot of the

1302
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:12,520
Speaker 1: kinds of outcomes, relationship outcomes and growth outcomes that they expected.

1303
01:18:13,439 --> 01:18:16,759
Speaker 1: I used to think that before I joined the military,

1304
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:20,760
Speaker 1: that um, the two years that it took to take

1305
01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:22,840
Speaker 1: a green breat like that made sense. But then people

1306
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:25,240
Speaker 1: were like, well, it takes another like maybe four or

1307
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:31,200
Speaker 1: five years before you are really a competent operator. And

1308
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:34,160
Speaker 1: looking back, oh no, that was absolutely true, that was

1309
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:39,160
Speaker 1: unquestionably true. You know. Um, yeah, I think I think

1310
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:43,680
Speaker 1: four years before you're a competent operator after finishing the

1311
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:46,599
Speaker 1: Q course sounds like about the round amount of time.

1312
01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:50,320
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't that also be the case after the transition, right,

1313
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:52,920
Speaker 1: you're you're not going to walk out of the military

1314
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:57,439
Speaker 1: and walk into a fortune executive leadership role. Of course,

1315
01:18:57,439 --> 01:19:00,080
Speaker 1: it just doesn't work like that. Um that have and

1316
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:05,720
Speaker 1: extremely rarely what could happen is you get out and

1317
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:07,760
Speaker 1: you spend a year dealing with things, and then you

1318
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:10,160
Speaker 1: spend a few more years dealing with other things, and

1319
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:12,920
Speaker 1: you get to a point in your transition where you're like, Okay,

1320
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:15,840
Speaker 1: now I get all of this stuff, and I understand

1321
01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:17,719
Speaker 1: a lot more, and I stand a lot of the context.

1322
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:20,639
Speaker 1: And I couldn't have done this just by like jumping

1323
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:26,120
Speaker 1: in day one, right. That transition process takes a lot

1324
01:19:26,160 --> 01:19:31,880
Speaker 1: of time, and in the book, the recommended path is

1325
01:19:31,960 --> 01:19:35,559
Speaker 1: to to spend a week on each chapter. Like, it's

1326
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:39,800
Speaker 1: not like you're going to be transitioned after that. That

1327
01:19:39,840 --> 01:19:43,479
Speaker 1: would be ridiculous that I could not say that to

1328
01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:47,720
Speaker 1: someone and not be laughed out of the room. Really, uh,

1329
01:19:48,080 --> 01:19:50,120
Speaker 1: But what it will do is give you the tools

1330
01:19:50,479 --> 01:19:54,040
Speaker 1: to go through this iterative process many times over the

1331
01:19:54,080 --> 01:19:57,120
Speaker 1: next three or four years, to develop some language to

1332
01:19:57,160 --> 01:20:00,559
Speaker 1: talk about what's happening to you, to give you some

1333
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:05,280
Speaker 1: tools to really function as you're going through your transition

1334
01:20:05,320 --> 01:20:08,280
Speaker 1: without everything turning into a crisis. And then, as for

1335
01:20:08,360 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 1: the second part of my question, really, at what point

1336
01:20:11,160 --> 01:20:12,840
Speaker 1: did you say I want to get this down and

1337
01:20:12,880 --> 01:20:16,360
Speaker 1: help others take that same for end, Thanks for bringing

1338
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:24,320
Speaker 1: that back around. UM. I I started journaling some and uh,

1339
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:28,400
Speaker 1: there were some really interesting things that I learned about

1340
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:33,400
Speaker 1: the brain. I talked with a number of my business

1341
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:35,920
Speaker 1: school peers about different ideas that I had for a

1342
01:20:35,960 --> 01:20:38,479
Speaker 1: side project because I was bored out of my mind

1343
01:20:38,479 --> 01:20:43,160
Speaker 1: of my job, and this one was one that I

1344
01:20:43,240 --> 01:20:46,759
Speaker 1: just sort of kept coming back to without really having

1345
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:51,680
Speaker 1: a way to do it structurally or like building a

1346
01:20:51,720 --> 01:20:56,160
Speaker 1: company or whatever. And so I started with with just blogging,

1347
01:20:56,479 --> 01:21:02,080
Speaker 1: and I wrote an article about quitting drinking UM and

1348
01:21:02,160 --> 01:21:06,080
Speaker 1: published on a blog and it it got uh like

1349
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:09,320
Speaker 1: a couple of thousand shares in like three days or something.

1350
01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:12,800
Speaker 1: UM so lots and lots of views, like tens of

1351
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:15,280
Speaker 1: thousands of views and a couple of thousands shares. It's like, Okay,

1352
01:21:15,320 --> 01:21:17,960
Speaker 1: well this resonated with some people. Let me think about

1353
01:21:18,960 --> 01:21:22,759
Speaker 1: some other UM topics that I can talk about and

1354
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 1: and that might resonate. Started building a community of people

1355
01:21:26,240 --> 01:21:30,120
Speaker 1: that were reading my content. UM not a massive community,

1356
01:21:30,200 --> 01:21:33,519
Speaker 1: but several hundred on a variety of different channels, and

1357
01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:35,439
Speaker 1: I push out stuff and and say, what do you

1358
01:21:35,439 --> 01:21:37,920
Speaker 1: think of this? Is this resonating with you? Is it

1359
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:41,240
Speaker 1: is a garbage uh? And some of them were like, yeah,

1360
01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:44,559
Speaker 1: this is really I have no idea what you're getting.

1361
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:47,880
Speaker 1: And so it's funny because you'll see sometimes I'll write

1362
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:49,680
Speaker 1: as an aside and people are like, what the hell

1363
01:21:49,720 --> 01:21:53,720
Speaker 1: are you talking about? And I would actually quote them,

1364
01:21:54,040 --> 01:21:57,439
Speaker 1: probably during neuroscience stuff, right some of it. They're like

1365
01:21:57,800 --> 01:22:00,439
Speaker 1: like that, what what are you talking about? And I like, okay,

1366
01:22:00,439 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 1: hold on a second, just just stick with me for

1367
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:03,960
Speaker 1: a minute, because I am getting to a point and

1368
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:06,759
Speaker 1: I can I can totally nerd out and just ramble

1369
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:09,559
Speaker 1: for a while. And sometimes it's useful for someone to say,

1370
01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:17,240
Speaker 1: get back to the point. Um. And so the whole

1371
01:22:17,320 --> 01:22:22,040
Speaker 1: goal for me in writing was to get an idea out,

1372
01:22:22,760 --> 01:22:29,040
Speaker 1: get some feedback on that idea, try and iterate on it, right, Like,

1373
01:22:29,080 --> 01:22:32,040
Speaker 1: instead of publishing the whole book, let me take sections

1374
01:22:32,040 --> 01:22:34,080
Speaker 1: of it and see what resonates and see what works,

1375
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:37,160
Speaker 1: and see what language works, and see um and see

1376
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:40,880
Speaker 1: what doesn't. Be able to cut that. And then once

1377
01:22:40,960 --> 01:22:46,720
Speaker 1: I had eight or nine different blog posts. Maybe there

1378
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:50,000
Speaker 1: were a couple more than that. Uh. I realized, Okay, well,

1379
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:51,960
Speaker 1: now I have all these different topics, how do I

1380
01:22:52,040 --> 01:22:55,040
Speaker 1: structure them in a way that makes sense? And even

1381
01:22:55,080 --> 01:22:56,720
Speaker 1: after that, it was like, okay, well, there's got to

1382
01:22:56,760 --> 01:22:59,080
Speaker 1: be this underlying thread that connects them too. So I

1383
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:01,280
Speaker 1: went and did a little bit more research, read a

1384
01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:04,200
Speaker 1: handful more books, and read a bunch of articles until

1385
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:08,560
Speaker 1: I came across this process of the differentiation and integration

1386
01:23:08,600 --> 01:23:11,120
Speaker 1: and awakening and and that kind of became the glue

1387
01:23:11,160 --> 01:23:14,200
Speaker 1: that tied it all together. Uh. And that's when I

1388
01:23:14,240 --> 01:23:17,559
Speaker 1: decided to collect these all together into a book and

1389
01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:22,280
Speaker 1: and landed on this sort of strategy to reach out

1390
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:24,840
Speaker 1: to the organizations that are going to help veterans transition.

1391
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:28,439
Speaker 1: Not that veterans shouldn't read this on their own, but

1392
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:31,799
Speaker 1: even if that's the case, I would recommend that they

1393
01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:34,519
Speaker 1: get a close friend or their spouse to read through

1394
01:23:34,520 --> 01:23:38,639
Speaker 1: it with them, or a peri advisor. There are lots

1395
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:42,360
Speaker 1: of peri advisors across the country that are trained people

1396
01:23:42,400 --> 01:23:45,960
Speaker 1: who have already gone through some kind of UM mental

1397
01:23:45,960 --> 01:23:50,080
Speaker 1: health growth and can can act as like peer coaches

1398
01:23:50,160 --> 01:23:52,799
Speaker 1: for them through this journey. UM They're going to get

1399
01:23:52,840 --> 01:23:56,519
Speaker 1: so much more value out of this if they read

1400
01:23:56,560 --> 01:23:58,800
Speaker 1: it with somebody else that's going to help them through

1401
01:23:59,120 --> 01:24:00,920
Speaker 1: this process, and if they just go through it on

1402
01:24:00,960 --> 01:24:04,280
Speaker 1: their own. Um. But I think that the greatest value

1403
01:24:04,720 --> 01:24:10,920
Speaker 1: will come from organizations coaching veterans through this process, because ultimately,

1404
01:24:10,960 --> 01:24:13,720
Speaker 1: when they're in a cohort of people going through the

1405
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:17,880
Speaker 1: same things, it's going to resonate more deeply with them. UM,

1406
01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:20,479
Speaker 1: and it's it's just gonna stick a little bit better.

1407
01:24:21,040 --> 01:24:22,960
Speaker 1: That makes sense, And it's good to know that there

1408
01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:26,280
Speaker 1: are going to be organizations doing that with this book. Yeah. Absolutely,

1409
01:24:26,280 --> 01:24:29,200
Speaker 1: I've already got a handful of them, um that are

1410
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:33,759
Speaker 1: really invested in it. UM A couple of universities and UM,

1411
01:24:33,800 --> 01:24:37,240
Speaker 1: a couple of military units, and a couple of veteran

1412
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:41,800
Speaker 1: service organizations. And it's slow starting out, but uh, it's

1413
01:24:41,880 --> 01:24:47,600
Speaker 1: definitely resonating with the right people, and it's starting conversations

1414
01:24:47,800 --> 01:24:51,599
Speaker 1: using a common language. That's absolutely the first step. How

1415
01:24:51,640 --> 01:24:55,000
Speaker 1: can we talk about these things in a way that

1416
01:24:55,040 --> 01:24:57,720
Speaker 1: we all know what we're talking about? Right when we

1417
01:24:57,720 --> 01:25:02,640
Speaker 1: talk about veterans in crisis, like, we aren't making explicit

1418
01:25:02,680 --> 01:25:07,080
Speaker 1: that those are veterans in crisis very far downstream to

1419
01:25:07,160 --> 01:25:10,760
Speaker 1: where we could most effectively help them, right, And so

1420
01:25:10,960 --> 01:25:13,400
Speaker 1: of course the tools that we're throwing at it aren't

1421
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:16,480
Speaker 1: really making a dent in it because we're not acknowledging

1422
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:21,479
Speaker 1: that there's so much more than uh, just that moment

1423
01:25:21,520 --> 01:25:24,000
Speaker 1: in crisis that led up to that. And the book

1424
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:26,559
Speaker 1: is giving specific solutions. I've heard a lot of guys

1425
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:30,120
Speaker 1: on this program just did in specifics say that you know,

1426
01:25:30,240 --> 01:25:32,200
Speaker 1: we hear about the whole idea of doing twenty two

1427
01:25:32,200 --> 01:25:35,200
Speaker 1: push ups for twenty two veterans a day killing themselves. Well,

1428
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:38,960
Speaker 1: everybody at this point is aware of the issue, and

1429
01:25:39,040 --> 01:25:41,440
Speaker 1: I've heard guys on the show say, it's not awareness

1430
01:25:41,439 --> 01:25:44,800
Speaker 1: that's the issue. We need some solutions to this. And

1431
01:25:44,840 --> 01:25:47,599
Speaker 1: that's what this book goes into. Yeah, and and um

1432
01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:52,160
Speaker 1: it's not going to be a one stop shop there.

1433
01:25:52,240 --> 01:25:57,360
Speaker 1: There is no solution mine included that will address this comprehensively,

1434
01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:02,640
Speaker 1: not a chance. UM. I decided to focus at the

1435
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:06,439
Speaker 1: point of transition as one interaction point that already has

1436
01:26:06,479 --> 01:26:08,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people dealing with them at that at

1437
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:12,360
Speaker 1: that transition point that it are already engaged, that we

1438
01:26:12,400 --> 01:26:14,120
Speaker 1: can make a difference, and we can address up stream.

1439
01:26:14,160 --> 01:26:18,760
Speaker 1: It's gonna be really really difficult to measure like what

1440
01:26:18,880 --> 01:26:26,160
Speaker 1: happens upstream against the outcome we want downstream. But um,

1441
01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:29,760
Speaker 1: we we can measure some points through throughout the process,

1442
01:26:29,840 --> 01:26:33,840
Speaker 1: and we can establish a shared language to talk about

1443
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:38,280
Speaker 1: mental health and baseline mental health. UH. And my hope

1444
01:26:38,320 --> 01:26:42,080
Speaker 1: is that that contributes to the conversation throughout the whole process,

1445
01:26:42,120 --> 01:26:44,720
Speaker 1: all the way downstream to the point of crisis and

1446
01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:49,000
Speaker 1: and help us address, um, find where there are failure

1447
01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:52,559
Speaker 1: points or where there are veterans falling through the cracks. UH.

1448
01:26:53,439 --> 01:26:56,719
Speaker 1: I think that there are lots of organizations that are

1449
01:26:56,720 --> 01:26:59,439
Speaker 1: working hard and doing great work, frankly to to raise

1450
01:26:59,479 --> 01:27:01,840
Speaker 1: awareness us and to help veterans and crisis and to

1451
01:27:01,920 --> 01:27:05,400
Speaker 1: help veterans that in all different parts of the spectrum.

1452
01:27:05,800 --> 01:27:08,080
Speaker 1: This is the point that I chose, and that I

1453
01:27:08,120 --> 01:27:10,600
Speaker 1: think that I can make the biggest difference and contribute

1454
01:27:10,600 --> 01:27:13,639
Speaker 1: to the conversation and in the best way. Well said,

1455
01:27:13,680 --> 01:27:16,320
Speaker 1: and we've highlighted some of those organizations Gallant for you,

1456
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:19,320
Speaker 1: we've had Karl Monger on UH. And Yeah, there's a

1457
01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:21,479
Speaker 1: lot of organizations doing things and it's great to see

1458
01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:24,400
Speaker 1: you doing your part once again. The book is Separating

1459
01:27:24,400 --> 01:27:28,080
Speaker 1: from Service. The Mental Health Handbook for Transitioning Veterans was

1460
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:31,200
Speaker 1: released earlier this year. Eric is on Twitter at Eric

1461
01:27:31,280 --> 01:27:36,080
Speaker 1: Underscore Burlson b U R L E. S O N. Honestly,

1462
01:27:36,120 --> 01:27:37,920
Speaker 1: this is like one of my favorite interviews I've done

1463
01:27:37,920 --> 01:27:40,240
Speaker 1: because mental health is such an important issue. I mean,

1464
01:27:40,600 --> 01:27:43,040
Speaker 1: I've had issues in my past, and I'm not a veteran.

1465
01:27:43,040 --> 01:27:46,000
Speaker 1: It's something we all struggle with. So just looking through

1466
01:27:46,000 --> 01:27:48,160
Speaker 1: the book, it was something that I think everybody could

1467
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:52,800
Speaker 1: take something from. It turns out veterans are human, it

1468
01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:54,600
Speaker 1: is true. I mean a lot, like a lot of

1469
01:27:54,640 --> 01:27:58,120
Speaker 1: the things that you said about how we should sleep better,

1470
01:27:58,200 --> 01:28:00,559
Speaker 1: how we should eat better, that is not specific to veterans.

1471
01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:02,960
Speaker 1: So I think anybody could get something out of this book.

1472
01:28:03,720 --> 01:28:05,640
Speaker 1: Anything else that you're you want to get out there

1473
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:08,720
Speaker 1: before we wrap this up. Yeah, absolutely. UM here's a

1474
01:28:08,720 --> 01:28:13,440
Speaker 1: couple of things. UM. First, you can find it on Amazon,

1475
01:28:14,520 --> 01:28:19,320
Speaker 1: pre order the Kindle edition. UM. The proceeds from the

1476
01:28:19,360 --> 01:28:22,760
Speaker 1: Kindle edition, I'm contributing to the trust fund for a

1477
01:28:22,840 --> 01:28:26,040
Speaker 1: family of UM, one of my friends who got killed

1478
01:28:26,080 --> 01:28:28,799
Speaker 1: earlier this year in Syria. So you're supporting the family

1479
01:28:28,800 --> 01:28:32,840
Speaker 1: of a dream beret doing that. Another point is going

1480
01:28:32,920 --> 01:28:36,639
Speaker 1: to separating from service dot com UM. You can buy

1481
01:28:36,760 --> 01:28:41,640
Speaker 1: especially boat copies directly through that. If you are the

1482
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:46,280
Speaker 1: if you are running a program for veterans in transition,

1483
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:49,839
Speaker 1: whether that is at the university level as a counselor

1484
01:28:49,840 --> 01:28:54,040
Speaker 1: at the university or in a corporate training environment or

1485
01:28:54,240 --> 01:28:58,800
Speaker 1: working UM at the unit level, you can email me

1486
01:28:58,840 --> 01:29:02,400
Speaker 1: at Eric at rating from service dot com. I'd be

1487
01:29:02,400 --> 01:29:04,920
Speaker 1: happy to come and speak or help you out with

1488
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:09,360
Speaker 1: getting a discounted bulk copies for your program and I

1489
01:29:09,360 --> 01:29:12,040
Speaker 1: can help you set up that program. So that's definitely

1490
01:29:12,040 --> 01:29:15,639
Speaker 1: the most important thing is is helping folks get this

1491
01:29:15,880 --> 01:29:20,000
Speaker 1: set up UM within their existing programs. This has been awesome, man,

1492
01:29:20,040 --> 01:29:22,920
Speaker 1: this is such an important conversation to have, So I'm

1493
01:29:22,960 --> 01:29:26,519
Speaker 1: really glad that you came in. Sorry, Jack couldn't be here. Uh,

1494
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:28,960
Speaker 1: but Jack will be here next episode for the listeners,

1495
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:33,280
Speaker 1: so he's not going away. Thanks. Thanks again, man, great meeting,

1496
01:29:33,320 --> 01:29:35,760
Speaker 1: great pleasure to be here, and uh, I'll reach out

1497
01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:41,679
Speaker 1: next something talent awesome. You've been listening to self rep Radio.

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01:29:42,439 --> 01:29:46,559
Speaker 1: New episodes up every Wednesday and Friday. Follow the show

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01:29:46,600 --> 01:30:04,080
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter at self Rep radio