WEBVTT - This Is How The US Can Become a Player in Rare Earth Metals 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:14.000 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:21.160 Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:23.560 I'm Jill Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.440 Tracy, you know, we do these episodes on various areas 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:30.360 of technology in which China is perceived to be ahead 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.760 of the US. Very interesting and I learn a lot. 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:36.960 It's not obvious to be like, what lessons there are 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.200 or anything some of these things like we're really far behind. 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:41.720 I don't think we're ever going to catch up. This 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.760 is very interesting and academic. But what exactly is the 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:47.080 point of talking about all this? I don't know if 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:49.080 there's anything to do with this information. 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:51.120 You know, what I thought you were going to say 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:55.600 is that we are sometimes accused of identifying strategic choke 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:58.920 points or areas of difficulty on the podcast and then 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.760 coming up with absolutely no solutions for how to fix them. 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:05.840 I will be the first to admit I have no solutions. 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:09.080 If someone accuses me of saying you have not offered 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.480 any solutions, you know what, I just say, that's not 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:15.880 my job. I'm just a mere podcaster. I'm just asking questions. 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:18.399 We enunciate the problem and leave it to others. To 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:18.880 figure out. 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:20.640 We leave it, We leave the problem to others to 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.360 figure out. But there are people who are doing more 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.800 than identifying choke points. There are people who are identifying 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.200 areas and vulnerabilities, et cetera. So people actually are thinking 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.800 about solutions, and they're not all pie in the sky. 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:35.240 You know, I've seen people on Twitter it's like, oh, 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.680 I know how to be more like Chinese? And you know, 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:40.080 why do we just adopt to. 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:42.200 Be more You've seen people on Twitter how to be 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.160 more Chinese? They're Chinese, Joe Wise. 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:46.479 They're just saying, why do you why doesn't the US 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:50.400 just adopt Marxist Leninism with Chinese characteristics? It's right, that's well, no, 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:51.320 and then we can do. 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:53.160 This on a serious note. The one you see most 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:55.640 often is well, why doesn't the US just ease up 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:58.800 on some of its regulation like China in order to 0:01:58.800 --> 0:01:59.760 get things done quickly? 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:02.320 That's the true Spend more money or something like that, 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:07.680 encourage actors to pursue things that aren't necessarily so short term, 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:11.440 et cetera. Yes, there are in theory solutions. Anyway, let's 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:15.200 have a conversation which we actually talk about ideas that 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:16.960 may be somewhere in the realm of. 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:19.639 Feasible excellent, I'm ready. And this is also this is 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.040 not an interesting topic that's come up a number of 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:23.360 times on all thoughts at this point. 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:24.720 That's right, So we're going to be talking about a 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:27.079 very core topic. And of course, this is the US 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:30.560 vulnerability to strategic minerals where earths et cetera, which we 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.760 know that China dominates, which in theory of China word 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:37.440 to completely shut off access you know, nadget military, high tech, 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.280 et cetera, all kinds of problems. What could actually be 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.560 done to alleviate is vulnerability. 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:45.960 And China's dominance was also a crucial turning point in 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:49.520 the trade negotiations with the US. And also I think 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:51.240 you got a sense of I don't want to say 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.600 desperation on the US side, but like maybe urgency on 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.400 the US side, just by looking at the headlines that 0:02:57.440 --> 0:03:00.359 seem to come out on a nearly daily basis about like, oh, 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:04.160 we found a huge critical mineral deposit in Utah, so 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:05.760 you know, we're all saved. 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:08.440 It's also worth before we go further, this is an 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:11.200 area in which there's probably a decent amount of overlap 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:13.919 from the last administration to this one. We did an 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:17.840 episode a little while ago with Peter Harrell who talked 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.800 about some of these deals that the administration is making 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:24.799 with equity stakes and private companies. I think Vulcan came 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:26.960 up as one of them. And so yes, we're going 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:29.160 to be talking about what we're further we can go 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:34.960 in terms of actually having a healthy, robust domestic environment 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.320 for our own strategic commodities, et cetera. Anyway, we really 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:39.960 do have the perfect guest. We're going to be speaking with, 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.720 Heidi Krebohticker. She's a senior fellow at the Council on 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:46.000 Foreign Relations, a former chief economist at the State Department, 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:48.360 and she is the co author of a brand new 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.960 report for the CFR looking at exactly this question, what 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:54.760 can the US do in this room? So, Heidi, thank 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:56.520 you so much for coming on the Odd Lots podcast. 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:57.400 Thanks for having me on. 0:03:57.640 --> 0:03:59.360 Tell us what's this new report all about. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.240 You're right that everyone's identified the problem and that it's 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:05.560 been a long time coming. This is like a slow 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.880 train coming at us for decades. At this point, it's 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.560 not a surprise that China has dominated this market for 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:15.720 a variety of reasons. And it's not a surprise that 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:18.760 they've weaponized it. They've done it over the years. We 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.880 did pay attention, but we forgot about it in many ways. 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.640 But right now we have an inflection point where we 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.840 really need to get this sort of damicles off of 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.200 the United States. And actually our challenge is the same 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:33.600 challenge that a lot of other advanced economies have right 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.080 now with this incredible choke hold not just on critical minerals, 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:41.400 but particularly rare earth, particularly heavy rare earths that are 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:45.400 the foundation of magnets which go in everything. 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.120 Can I just back up in history for a second, 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.320 because I think it will help us contextualize where we 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.680 are right now. But what were the conditions that allowed 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:58.960 China to basically gain dominance in this particular area. Did 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:01.239 they make us strategic to decision at some point saying, 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:03.320 you know, we're going to be the world's uh not 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:07.039 manufacturer of min of rare minerals and rare earths, but 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:09.839 we're gonna we're gonna make this, you know, a priority 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:10.560 for ourselves. 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:14.719 Yes, made in twenty twenty five was their big strategic plan. 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:17.599 They had invested a lot in rare earths, you know, 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.000 particularly their domestic rare earths many many years before that, 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:23.520 but they decided they wanted to dominate, and they really 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:28.640 they did a very smart job of creating an entire ecosystem, 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:34.680 so both domestic China extraction processing, and then they came 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:37.159 up with the all of the products that were that 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:39.960 would be the leading demand, which you really need to 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:43.120 have for the creation of a market, and the demand 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:48.479 meaning the you know, new energy wind turbines, particularly their 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.440 you know, their evs and also defense, so you have 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.320 a whole like demand pull, and you also have state 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.000 companies that don't have to be profitable, and that's pretty 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:01.200 key if you're competing around the globe to actually mine 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:03.880 and process. They also have a low hold on the 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:08.760 technology for processing, and so in traditional mining, you know, 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:12.760 they have really they've made a massive strategic investment, and we, 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:14.640 for a variety of reasons, did not. 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:17.200 Joe. This reminds me of the episode we did with 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:20.239 Dan Wong where he made sort of similar points about 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.800 the tech ecosystem that's developed around shen Zen and how 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:27.000 that allows innovation to really thrive. And then also this 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.560 idea that well, if you don't necessarily care about returns 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:34.000 on capital as much as the US. Certainly, then you 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:36.440 kind of have a leg up when you're developing something 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:38.080 like this that might not pay off for a very 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:38.560 long time. 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:41.400 And this always seems to be an issue when we're 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.479 talking about matters of national defense, because right when it 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:48.080 comes to national security, you have this other priority that 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.279 is not profit related. Everything that we've done, every episode 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.440 we've talked about this comes up with we're talking about 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.680 literally the defense industries and the defense suppliers or other 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:00.279 strategic things. Here's this other goal that you have in 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:02.880 which you have at least two bottom lines, ones related 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:05.520 to security and ones related to profit. And so you 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:08.440 have this tension. So how did you How did you 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.120 do this report? What was the process by which you 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.200 researched this, Who did you talk to, et cetera so 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:15.240 that you could ut publish this. 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:18.560 The report itself is on how while we put all 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.960 of the emphasis on mining, on the extraction, coming up 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:28.120 with the processing and the end products, for example, magnets. 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:32.440 The thing is we can't actually outline, out process and 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:36.400 outspend China, certainly not at scale and not in a 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.080 cost effective way. So what is another we have basically 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:44.160 a huge timing mismatch will we get there eventually with friends, allies, 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:47.360 you know, all of the different countries that are working 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:51.800 on the same problem together eventually, but it's going to 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.640 take a very long time, and we don't really have time. 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:58.239 So we looked at how innovation could actually leap frog 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:02.120 that China choke hold on critical minerals and particularly rare earths. 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.480 And so that was really the starting point. How do 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:08.120 you solve for national and economic security in a way 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:12.280 that really plays to us strength in innovation. And then 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:14.600 when we took a look around, we found there were 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:20.320 some really exciting companies that had taken research and development 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:24.160 from like fifteen years ago and they were ready to 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.640 scale and starting to scale. And so that was really 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:27.840 what the excitement was about. 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:30.760 Just real quickly, when you say you took a look around, 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:32.280 like who did you talk to and how did you 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.400 identify the people who pointed to you to look, there's 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.480 a lot of interesting, genuine science and tech that can 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:40.600 be scaled up. How did that process work? 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:42.840 So I started with the National Labs because we don't 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:44.719 give enough credit to the fact that a lot of 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:48.360 the great innovations that come out and are commercialized that 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.120 we all know and love actually had their origin in 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:53.600 our national lab system. It's sort of a national jewel, 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:58.520 and so AIMES National Lab has this critical material innovation 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:01.080 hub and a lot of the Companyanese that are doing 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:05.520 the various types of breakthrough technology came out of or 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:08.720 are working with Aimes National Lab. And so I started 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:11.280 like poking around from there and then really word of 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.320 mouth as soon as we got the word out that 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:18.120 we were working on this. It's a very enthusiastic mission 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:22.480 driven community that wants to all leap frog this challenge 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:23.600 through innovation. 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:27.800 Plus people like talking about their problems. Right, describe for 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:31.120 us the state of the US, I guess Rare Earth's 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.720 industry at the moment, and then also what you would 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:38.880 describe as the key choke point in this particular strategic 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:42.080 choke point, like where is the biggest source of trouble 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:44.360 or inability to actually do this at scale. 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:47.440 So, in terms of the two different parts, the US 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.720 used to produce a significant amount of wearors, primarily light 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:56.959 rearers MP materials in Mountain Pass Mine had a variety 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.520 of challenges including not being commercially viable, but that was 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:03.199 not the only reason. But we do actually have Rare 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.000 Earth's in the United States, and we were a mining 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:08.960 you know, a mining powerhouse many years ago. I mean 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.839 remember like California forty nine ers and people going out 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:12.760 with picks and shovels. 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:14.719 Yea, many many years, many years ago. 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.920 So we do have mines and we have resources, but 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:20.240 there are always you know, there are always consequences and 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:23.240 trade offs there. You know, to mine is often toxic, 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:27.120 you have environmental concerns, You have a lot of waste 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:31.120 that through traditional mining gets generated. So we were more 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:35.000 than happy for the Chinese to take on those set 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:38.520 of problems and then sell them to us at a 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:42.560 very low cost. That's how we all became dependent on them. 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.160 And I think where we are right now, we do 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:49.160 have a lot of partnerships that are being formed, and 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:54.400 you know with Saudi, with South Korea, are Australia. I mean, 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:58.720 we're doing what we can to go the traditional mining route. 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:02.040 But the I think the really interesting thing is how 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.920 we can get there like much faster, much cleaner, and 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.880 with much more cost effectiveness and even competitiveness cost competitiveness 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.120 with China through some of these new technologies mining in 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:13.680 the US. 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.480 Let's talk about them. When you talk about the technologies 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.720 that could actually get us to parity or something like that. 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:23.120 Are they more on the mining side, are they more 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:25.640 on the refining side or both? Like, let's talk about 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:26.439 these technologies. 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:27.960 Okay, So let me give you. Let me give you 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:32.640 a couple of examples. So back when China cut off 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:38.720 Japan's rare earth access in twenty ten, the Department of Energy, 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:41.719 I mean, people don't know ARPA E. Generally they think 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.600 of darp But Department of Energy has its own research 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.920 grant facility and they do big problems and put them 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:50.280 out there. So they did this in twenty eleven. They 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:55.720 sprinkled around a lot of grant research funding for materials 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:57.640 that you could create a magnet with that did not 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.760 require rare earth, and lo and behold that a scientist 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:05.120 in Minnesota, University of Minnesota created a rare earth free magnet. 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.400 So there's a material design approach to this that either 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:12.920 drastically reduces how much rare earth you actually need in magnets. 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.400 And there's a company called Nirn Magnetics that actually is 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:21.400 it's commercialized, it's scaling, it actually is scaling up massively 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:23.760 a new facility in Minnesota. So that's sort of the 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:27.920 material engineering approach to it, and then there's this whole 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:33.120 other basket of bio tech innovations and you know, if 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:35.400 you want me to go into this please yeah, okay. 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:39.640 So you know they're companies like Alterra Research Technology and 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:44.120 they again are affiliated with this AIMS National Lab. They 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:52.120 have programmed proteins. So those proteins are basically like robots 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.520 that go in to waste. And I'll get to the 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:57.600 importance of waste in a minute, but they will go 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.719 into waste or other types of tailings, things that come 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:05.440 out of minds, and they will go in and specifically 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:09.679 target the protein, will target a specific rare earth and 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:14.000 extract it. And so it is clean, it's fast, it 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.320 relies on a very large resource that we have. We 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:19.920 have a lot of waste, so you know, it's a 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:23.400 domestically sourced resource. There are a number of other, you know, 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:26.199 ways that we are very in a very clean, fast 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:31.880 and cost competitive way using technology to actually mine waste. 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.440 And that's actually one of our It's like, we shouldn't 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.080 consider waste at this point to be a liability. It's 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:38.960 literally America's next mind. 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:42.320 So I have a serious question. But first, no, first 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.800 I'm so curious about the little protein robots. What does 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:47.400 that process actually look like? 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:54.320 So I don't know. I'm not a molecular you know, technologist, and. 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.640 Molecular technologists they're listening. That'll be the follow up episode. 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:00.640 But this is something that's been again long in the 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:04.040 making in terms of the tech that's been developed, and 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.240 so it's basically you know that this particular company is 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:13.280 commercializing the technology, but it is. It's a protein that 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.520 is altered so that it can go in and sort 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:22.720 of micro target specific rare earth elements, and that is 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:26.720 I think it's kind of revolutionary. It's super disruptive. And 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.320 the same with all of these companies that were part 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.440 of this study that we did, they are at the 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.320 cusp of being ready to scale and scale fast. 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.520 All right, this is my next serious question, which is, 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:42.160 you know, all of this sounds great. Protein robots sounds amazing. 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.120 Why aren't we doing this already? If the technology exists? 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.320 So we're focused on and this is you know, this 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:51.960 takes a strategy, and a strategy that focuses on the 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.960 innovation side. We're very focused on the how do we 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.680 compete head on with traditional mining? And that's good and 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:02.200 it's important. This is a huge compliment to that. We 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:06.080 haven't really done it yet. We've done it piecemeal. So 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:08.840 you have a lot of a lot of people in 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:14.520 this community that are highly focused on the technology commercializing 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.240 at early stage and then figuring out how to go 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:22.880 from there. I think we have Again, it's a huge 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.720 opportunity that's out there. When I think about where we are, 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.920 I think about the shale revolution and how we had 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:33.880 fracking technology for decades and then we reached a point 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:38.360 where that technology unlocked and energy revolution in the United States, 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:42.560 and it was like an overnight switch flipped and suddenly 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.720 we're an energy giant, an energy producing giant. And so 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:49.400 I do feel there's something similar in what we're seeing 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:53.680 right now in the technology around critical minerals and mirrors. 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:55.880 I think we could really use a big switch flip 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.600 to suddenly have abundance. Those don't come along very often. 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.280 We should people have to appreciate that more. I'm reading 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:04.040 this press release from Berkeley. As reported in Nano Letters, 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:07.640 the researchers genetically engineered a harmless virus to act like 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:11.000 a quote smart sponge that grabs rare earth metals from 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:13.560 water and with a gentle change in temperature in acidity 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.360 releases them for collection. Sounds really cool. I'll have to 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.240 go watch your YouTube later talk to us about. One 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:20.880 of the themes that comes up in a lot of 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.280 these conversations is the importance of off take agreements. So 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:28.640 right like right now, American companies, they currently do have 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:32.440 access to Chinese where Earth's and so it might be 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:35.640 very risky for anyone to invest in these technologies knowing 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:38.320 that at least for the very you know, the beginning years, 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:42.160 when before the cost curve has come down, the competitors 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:42.640 might be. 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:44.640 Cheaper the proverbial valley of death. 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.640 Yeah, how do you solve that problem of guaranteeing that 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:51.440 there is demand when these companies release harmless viruses that 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.280 act like a smart sponge and rare earth metals from water. 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:58.080 So first there has to be This is not just 0:16:58.120 --> 0:16:59.920 on government to do. I mean a lot of people 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.680 point at the massive, very muscular industrial policy that the 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.720 Trump administration is using right now, and I think that 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.840 is a very good thing. But it also it takes 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:14.320 companies actually coming together more in a consortia type of 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:18.320 arrangement to have collective off take agreements. You have certain 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:21.960 companies that have been very forward leaning in their off 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:25.960 take agreements with certain I mean, Nyron is a good 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:30.200 case that they have some autooems that have been working 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:31.080 with them for years. 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:31.359 Now. 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.159 You have I mean Vulcan you brought up earlier, but 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:37.520 Vulcan is kind of the poster child for when you 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:43.840 get the technology, the industrial policy, and the commercial all 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.440 together working to solve and they actually are. I think 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:53.199 they're the first innovation targeted industrial policy scale up rapid 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:55.960 scale up. Vulcan's only three years old. They close their 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.680 Series A in August. I mean we're talking about one 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.840 point four billion that they got in a CONSORTIU together 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:08.000 with a company called re Element that recycles magnets. They 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:12.199 take the rare earths and they actually manufacture magnets. That 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.359 is incredibly interesting. They do it on it. They're doing 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:21.080 it on a a super fast scaling time horizon. I 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:23.680 think they are aiming for twenty twenty seven to start 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.120 rolling product out and have been going through the validation 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.200 process with all of their different types of magnets, so 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:32.920 they're doing this on an accelerated basis. They got funded 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.080 by every branch in the military, so they have a 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:40.520 built in supply a demand from the US military right there. 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:44.760 They also have semiconductor and an aerospace. They're really looking 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:49.000 to target the national security and the top economic security 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:51.119 challenges and they have the partners to do that. So 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:53.640 I think that's a good example of how we want 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:54.399 to do. 0:18:54.280 --> 0:19:12.840 This moving forward. Adjacent to the off take issue, who 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:16.760 actually owns the waste water that we could potentially be 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:19.159 you know, extracting valuable things from. 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.720 So we have lots of different types of waste. So 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:27.159 we have industrial waste that comes from mines where you 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:31.439 have primary metals that are that are extracted, but you 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:34.560 have the piles of tailings that sit there on the 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:38.720 side because they're either there's no commercial viability to extract 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.960 them or they are you know, they're just considered they're 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.359 considered piles of waste. Both in operating mines and in 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.679 minds that have closed down. You have coal ash that 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:53.240 is toxic leftover waste from coal mining. You have e waste, 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:56.120 which is I think one of the more promising areas 0:19:56.160 --> 0:20:00.840 we Actually if you look at old hard drive and 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:05.600 cell phones and batteries and the like, there are tons 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:09.520 of rare earths that are in there and actually magnets 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:11.960 that are in there from years you know, when we 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:16.399 actually had much greater rare earth's you know, intensity in 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.320 those magnets before we started to like having to have 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:24.000 to scale back. So if you look at the waste ecosystem, 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.480 we have a lot of domestic opportunity. And that's actually 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:29.640 why I think Bulkan is a really good example. They 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:34.760 pull from domestic recycled e waste and then they process 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:38.000 and manufacture magnets in a completely domestic cycle. 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.560 Joe, that's interesting about coal ash. I could have been 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:44.040 mining my ashes from burning the coal stove in Connecticut 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.480 that first year, mining them for rare earths if only 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:46.840 I had. 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:51.000 None at another missed opportunity to exploit. 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:53.000 To monetize my natural resource. 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:56.280 To monetize the natural resources on your land that you 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.640 had in Connecticut. Let's talk about Okay, so we understand 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:04.240 there's various measures and opportunities and resources and technological opportunities 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:06.080 and things that we're going to allow because that are 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.520 already us scaling up, et cetera. Talk to us more 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:13.239 like from a policy perspective, what do we need to 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:15.399 do to get from what we already have cooking and 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:18.320 what's already in the works to where we feel good 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:21.480 about where we are and from does policy what it 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:24.440 needs to happen in the form of legislation, or does 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:28.439 the government the federal government as currently constituted, have the 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:32.320 cash and the policy levers to pull without new laws 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:32.920 being passed. 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:38.320 So policy plays an enormous role. And the first thing 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:41.520 we need to do is actually understand that we can't 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.120 do a fragmented approach to this because you end up 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:49.600 losing innovation that might actually change the chessboard entirely. With China, 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.080 you also have to deal with waste from a policy basis, 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:56.240 because we actually don't track waste. It's very hard to 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:00.359 find data on how much e waste the US pretty uses. 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:04.440 We ship some of it to Asia that is very 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:09.160