1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 2 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 3 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 3: I'm Jill Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. 4 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 2: Tracy, you know, we do these episodes on various areas 5 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: of technology in which China is perceived to be ahead 6 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: of the US. Very interesting and I learn a lot. 7 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 2: It's not obvious to be like, what lessons there are 8 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 2: or anything some of these things like we're really far behind. 9 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 2: I don't think we're ever going to catch up. This 10 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 2: is very interesting and academic. But what exactly is the 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 2: point of talking about all this? I don't know if 12 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 2: there's anything to do with this information. 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 3: You know, what I thought you were going to say 14 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 3: is that we are sometimes accused of identifying strategic choke 15 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 3: points or areas of difficulty on the podcast and then 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 3: coming up with absolutely no solutions for how to fix them. 17 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 2: I will be the first to admit I have no solutions. 18 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 2: If someone accuses me of saying you have not offered 19 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 2: any solutions, you know what, I just say, that's not 20 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: my job. I'm just a mere podcaster. I'm just asking questions. 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 3: We enunciate the problem and leave it to others. To 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 3: figure out. 23 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 2: We leave it, We leave the problem to others to 24 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 2: figure out. But there are people who are doing more 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 2: than identifying choke points. There are people who are identifying 26 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 2: areas and vulnerabilities, et cetera. So people actually are thinking 27 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: about solutions, and they're not all pie in the sky. 28 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 2: You know, I've seen people on Twitter it's like, oh, 29 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 2: I know how to be more like Chinese? And you know, 30 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 2: why do we just adopt to. 31 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 3: Be more You've seen people on Twitter how to be 32 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 3: more Chinese? They're Chinese, Joe Wise. 33 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 2: They're just saying, why do you why doesn't the US 34 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 2: just adopt Marxist Leninism with Chinese characteristics? It's right, that's well, no, 35 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: and then we can do. 36 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 3: This on a serious note. The one you see most 37 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 3: often is well, why doesn't the US just ease up 38 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 3: on some of its regulation like China in order to 39 00:01:58,800 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 3: get things done quickly? 40 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 2: That's the true Spend more money or something like that, 41 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 2: encourage actors to pursue things that aren't necessarily so short term, 42 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: et cetera. Yes, there are in theory solutions. Anyway, let's 43 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: have a conversation which we actually talk about ideas that 44 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 2: may be somewhere in the realm of. 45 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 3: Feasible excellent, I'm ready. And this is also this is 46 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 3: not an interesting topic that's come up a number of 47 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 3: times on all thoughts at this point. 48 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 2: That's right, So we're going to be talking about a 49 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 2: very core topic. And of course, this is the US 50 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: vulnerability to strategic minerals where earths et cetera, which we 51 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 2: know that China dominates, which in theory of China word 52 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: to completely shut off access you know, nadget military, high tech, 53 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 2: et cetera, all kinds of problems. What could actually be 54 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 2: done to alleviate is vulnerability. 55 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 3: And China's dominance was also a crucial turning point in 56 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 3: the trade negotiations with the US. And also I think 57 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 3: you got a sense of I don't want to say 58 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 3: desperation on the US side, but like maybe urgency on 59 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 3: the US side, just by looking at the headlines that 60 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 3: seem to come out on a nearly daily basis about like, oh, 61 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 3: we found a huge critical mineral deposit in Utah, so 62 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 3: you know, we're all saved. 63 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 2: It's also worth before we go further, this is an 64 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: area in which there's probably a decent amount of overlap 65 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 2: from the last administration to this one. We did an 66 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: episode a little while ago with Peter Harrell who talked 67 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 2: about some of these deals that the administration is making 68 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,799 Speaker 2: with equity stakes and private companies. I think Vulcan came 69 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 2: up as one of them. And so yes, we're going 70 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: to be talking about what we're further we can go 71 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: in terms of actually having a healthy, robust domestic environment 72 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: for our own strategic commodities, et cetera. Anyway, we really 73 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: do have the perfect guest. We're going to be speaking with, 74 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 2: Heidi Krebohticker. She's a senior fellow at the Council on 75 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: Foreign Relations, a former chief economist at the State Department, 76 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 2: and she is the co author of a brand new 77 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: report for the CFR looking at exactly this question, what 78 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 2: can the US do in this room? So, Heidi, thank 79 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: you so much for coming on the Odd Lots podcast. 80 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 4: Thanks for having me on. 81 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: Tell us what's this new report all about. 82 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 4: You're right that everyone's identified the problem and that it's 83 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 4: been a long time coming. This is like a slow 84 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 4: train coming at us for decades. At this point, it's 85 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 4: not a surprise that China has dominated this market for 86 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 4: a variety of reasons. And it's not a surprise that 87 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 4: they've weaponized it. They've done it over the years. We 88 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 4: did pay attention, but we forgot about it in many ways. 89 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 4: But right now we have an inflection point where we 90 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 4: really need to get this sort of damicles off of 91 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 4: the United States. And actually our challenge is the same 92 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 4: challenge that a lot of other advanced economies have right 93 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 4: now with this incredible choke hold not just on critical minerals, 94 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 4: but particularly rare earth, particularly heavy rare earths that are 95 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 4: the foundation of magnets which go in everything. 96 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: Can I just back up in history for a second, 97 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 3: because I think it will help us contextualize where we 98 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 3: are right now. But what were the conditions that allowed 99 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 3: China to basically gain dominance in this particular area. Did 100 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,239 Speaker 3: they make us strategic to decision at some point saying, 101 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 3: you know, we're going to be the world's uh not 102 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 3: manufacturer of min of rare minerals and rare earths, but 103 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 3: we're gonna we're gonna make this, you know, a priority 104 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 3: for ourselves. 105 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 4: Yes, made in twenty twenty five was their big strategic plan. 106 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 4: They had invested a lot in rare earths, you know, 107 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 4: particularly their domestic rare earths many many years before that, 108 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 4: but they decided they wanted to dominate, and they really 109 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 4: they did a very smart job of creating an entire ecosystem, 110 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 4: so both domestic China extraction processing, and then they came 111 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 4: up with the all of the products that were that 112 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 4: would be the leading demand, which you really need to 113 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 4: have for the creation of a market, and the demand 114 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 4: meaning the you know, new energy wind turbines, particularly their 115 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 4: you know, their evs and also defense, so you have 116 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 4: a whole like demand pull, and you also have state 117 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 4: companies that don't have to be profitable, and that's pretty 118 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 4: key if you're competing around the globe to actually mine 119 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 4: and process. They also have a low hold on the 120 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 4: technology for processing, and so in traditional mining, you know, 121 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 4: they have really they've made a massive strategic investment, and we, 122 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 4: for a variety of reasons, did not. 123 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 3: Joe. This reminds me of the episode we did with 124 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,239 Speaker 3: Dan Wong where he made sort of similar points about 125 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 3: the tech ecosystem that's developed around shen Zen and how 126 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 3: that allows innovation to really thrive. And then also this 127 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 3: idea that well, if you don't necessarily care about returns 128 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 3: on capital as much as the US. Certainly, then you 129 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 3: kind of have a leg up when you're developing something 130 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 3: like this that might not pay off for a very 131 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 3: long time. 132 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: And this always seems to be an issue when we're 133 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 2: talking about matters of national defense, because right when it 134 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: comes to national security, you have this other priority that 135 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 2: is not profit related. Everything that we've done, every episode 136 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 2: we've talked about this comes up with we're talking about 137 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 2: literally the defense industries and the defense suppliers or other 138 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 2: strategic things. Here's this other goal that you have in 139 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 2: which you have at least two bottom lines, ones related 140 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: to security and ones related to profit. And so you 141 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 2: have this tension. So how did you How did you 142 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 2: do this report? What was the process by which you 143 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 2: researched this, Who did you talk to, et cetera so 144 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 2: that you could ut publish this. 145 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 4: The report itself is on how while we put all 146 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 4: of the emphasis on mining, on the extraction, coming up 147 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 4: with the processing and the end products, for example, magnets. 148 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 4: The thing is we can't actually outline, out process and 149 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 4: outspend China, certainly not at scale and not in a 150 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 4: cost effective way. So what is another we have basically 151 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 4: a huge timing mismatch will we get there eventually with friends, allies, 152 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 4: you know, all of the different countries that are working 153 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 4: on the same problem together eventually, but it's going to 154 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 4: take a very long time, and we don't really have time. 155 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,239 Speaker 4: So we looked at how innovation could actually leap frog 156 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 4: that China choke hold on critical minerals and particularly rare earths. 157 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 4: And so that was really the starting point. How do 158 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 4: you solve for national and economic security in a way 159 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 4: that really plays to us strength in innovation. And then 160 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 4: when we took a look around, we found there were 161 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 4: some really exciting companies that had taken research and development 162 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 4: from like fifteen years ago and they were ready to 163 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 4: scale and starting to scale. And so that was really 164 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 4: what the excitement was about. 165 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 2: Just real quickly, when you say you took a look around, 166 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 2: like who did you talk to and how did you 167 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 2: identify the people who pointed to you to look, there's 168 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 2: a lot of interesting, genuine science and tech that can 169 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 2: be scaled up. How did that process work? 170 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 4: So I started with the National Labs because we don't 171 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:44,719 Speaker 4: give enough credit to the fact that a lot of 172 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 4: the great innovations that come out and are commercialized that 173 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 4: we all know and love actually had their origin in 174 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 4: our national lab system. It's sort of a national jewel, 175 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 4: and so AIMES National Lab has this critical material innovation 176 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 4: hub and a lot of the Companyanese that are doing 177 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 4: the various types of breakthrough technology came out of or 178 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 4: are working with Aimes National Lab. And so I started 179 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 4: like poking around from there and then really word of 180 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 4: mouth as soon as we got the word out that 181 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 4: we were working on this. It's a very enthusiastic mission 182 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 4: driven community that wants to all leap frog this challenge 183 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 4: through innovation. 184 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 3: Plus people like talking about their problems. Right, describe for 185 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 3: us the state of the US, I guess Rare Earth's 186 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 3: industry at the moment, and then also what you would 187 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 3: describe as the key choke point in this particular strategic 188 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 3: choke point, like where is the biggest source of trouble 189 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 3: or inability to actually do this at scale. 190 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 4: So, in terms of the two different parts, the US 191 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 4: used to produce a significant amount of wearors, primarily light 192 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:56,959 Speaker 4: rearers MP materials in Mountain Pass Mine had a variety 193 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 4: of challenges including not being commercially viable, but that was 194 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 4: not the only reason. But we do actually have Rare 195 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 4: Earth's in the United States, and we were a mining 196 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 4: you know, a mining powerhouse many years ago. I mean 197 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 4: remember like California forty nine ers and people going out 198 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 4: with picks and shovels. 199 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 3: Yea, many many years, many years ago. 200 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 4: So we do have mines and we have resources, but 201 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 4: there are always you know, there are always consequences and 202 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 4: trade offs there. You know, to mine is often toxic, 203 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 4: you have environmental concerns, You have a lot of waste 204 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 4: that through traditional mining gets generated. So we were more 205 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 4: than happy for the Chinese to take on those set 206 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 4: of problems and then sell them to us at a 207 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 4: very low cost. That's how we all became dependent on them. 208 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 4: And I think where we are right now, we do 209 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 4: have a lot of partnerships that are being formed, and 210 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 4: you know with Saudi, with South Korea, are Australia. I mean, 211 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 4: we're doing what we can to go the traditional mining route. 212 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 4: But the I think the really interesting thing is how 213 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 4: we can get there like much faster, much cleaner, and 214 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 4: with much more cost effectiveness and even competitiveness cost competitiveness 215 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 4: with China through some of these new technologies mining in 216 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 4: the US. 217 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 2: Let's talk about them. When you talk about the technologies 218 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: that could actually get us to parity or something like that. 219 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: Are they more on the mining side, are they more 220 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: on the refining side or both? Like, let's talk about 221 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 2: these technologies. 222 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 4: Okay, So let me give you. Let me give you 223 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 4: a couple of examples. So back when China cut off 224 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 4: Japan's rare earth access in twenty ten, the Department of Energy, 225 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 4: I mean, people don't know ARPA E. Generally they think 226 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 4: of darp But Department of Energy has its own research 227 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 4: grant facility and they do big problems and put them 228 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 4: out there. So they did this in twenty eleven. They 229 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 4: sprinkled around a lot of grant research funding for materials 230 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 4: that you could create a magnet with that did not 231 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 4: require rare earth, and lo and behold that a scientist 232 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 4: in Minnesota, University of Minnesota created a rare earth free magnet. 233 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 4: So there's a material design approach to this that either 234 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 4: drastically reduces how much rare earth you actually need in magnets. 235 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 4: And there's a company called Nirn Magnetics that actually is 236 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 4: it's commercialized, it's scaling, it actually is scaling up massively 237 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 4: a new facility in Minnesota. So that's sort of the 238 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 4: material engineering approach to it, and then there's this whole 239 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 4: other basket of bio tech innovations and you know, if 240 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 4: you want me to go into this please yeah, okay. 241 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 4: So you know they're companies like Alterra Research Technology and 242 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 4: they again are affiliated with this AIMS National Lab. They 243 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 4: have programmed proteins. So those proteins are basically like robots 244 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 4: that go in to waste. And I'll get to the 245 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 4: importance of waste in a minute, but they will go 246 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,719 Speaker 4: into waste or other types of tailings, things that come 247 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 4: out of minds, and they will go in and specifically 248 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 4: target the protein, will target a specific rare earth and 249 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 4: extract it. And so it is clean, it's fast, it 250 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 4: relies on a very large resource that we have. We 251 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 4: have a lot of waste, so you know, it's a 252 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 4: domestically sourced resource. There are a number of other, you know, 253 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 4: ways that we are very in a very clean, fast 254 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 4: and cost competitive way using technology to actually mine waste. 255 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 4: And that's actually one of our It's like, we shouldn't 256 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 4: consider waste at this point to be a liability. It's 257 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 4: literally America's next mind. 258 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 3: So I have a serious question. But first, no, first 259 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 3: I'm so curious about the little protein robots. What does 260 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 3: that process actually look like? 261 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 4: So I don't know. I'm not a molecular you know, technologist, and. 262 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: Molecular technologists they're listening. That'll be the follow up episode. 263 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 4: But this is something that's been again long in the 264 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 4: making in terms of the tech that's been developed, and 265 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 4: so it's basically you know that this particular company is 266 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 4: commercializing the technology, but it is. It's a protein that 267 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 4: is altered so that it can go in and sort 268 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 4: of micro target specific rare earth elements, and that is 269 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 4: I think it's kind of revolutionary. It's super disruptive. And 270 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 4: the same with all of these companies that were part 271 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 4: of this study that we did, they are at the 272 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 4: cusp of being ready to scale and scale fast. 273 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 3: All right, this is my next serious question, which is, 274 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 3: you know, all of this sounds great. Protein robots sounds amazing. 275 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 3: Why aren't we doing this already? If the technology exists? 276 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 4: So we're focused on and this is you know, this 277 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 4: takes a strategy, and a strategy that focuses on the 278 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 4: innovation side. We're very focused on the how do we 279 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 4: compete head on with traditional mining? And that's good and 280 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 4: it's important. This is a huge compliment to that. We 281 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 4: haven't really done it yet. We've done it piecemeal. So 282 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 4: you have a lot of a lot of people in 283 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 4: this community that are highly focused on the technology commercializing 284 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 4: at early stage and then figuring out how to go 285 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 4: from there. I think we have Again, it's a huge 286 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 4: opportunity that's out there. When I think about where we are, 287 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 4: I think about the shale revolution and how we had 288 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 4: fracking technology for decades and then we reached a point 289 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 4: where that technology unlocked and energy revolution in the United States, 290 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 4: and it was like an overnight switch flipped and suddenly 291 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 4: we're an energy giant, an energy producing giant. And so 292 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 4: I do feel there's something similar in what we're seeing 293 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 4: right now in the technology around critical minerals and mirrors. 294 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: I think we could really use a big switch flip 295 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 2: to suddenly have abundance. Those don't come along very often. 296 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: We should people have to appreciate that more. I'm reading 297 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: this press release from Berkeley. As reported in Nano Letters, 298 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 2: the researchers genetically engineered a harmless virus to act like 299 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: a quote smart sponge that grabs rare earth metals from 300 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 2: water and with a gentle change in temperature in acidity 301 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 2: releases them for collection. Sounds really cool. I'll have to 302 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 2: go watch your YouTube later talk to us about. One 303 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: of the themes that comes up in a lot of 304 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 2: these conversations is the importance of off take agreements. So 305 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 2: right like right now, American companies, they currently do have 306 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: access to Chinese where Earth's and so it might be 307 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: very risky for anyone to invest in these technologies knowing 308 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 2: that at least for the very you know, the beginning years, 309 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 2: when before the cost curve has come down, the competitors 310 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 2: might be. 311 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 3: Cheaper the proverbial valley of death. 312 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, how do you solve that problem of guaranteeing that 313 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 2: there is demand when these companies release harmless viruses that 314 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: act like a smart sponge and rare earth metals from water. 315 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 4: So first there has to be This is not just 316 00:16:58,120 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 4: on government to do. I mean a lot of people 317 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 4: point at the massive, very muscular industrial policy that the 318 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 4: Trump administration is using right now, and I think that 319 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 4: is a very good thing. But it also it takes 320 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 4: companies actually coming together more in a consortia type of 321 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 4: arrangement to have collective off take agreements. You have certain 322 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 4: companies that have been very forward leaning in their off 323 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 4: take agreements with certain I mean, Nyron is a good 324 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 4: case that they have some autooems that have been working 325 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 4: with them for years. 326 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: Now. 327 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 4: You have I mean Vulcan you brought up earlier, but 328 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 4: Vulcan is kind of the poster child for when you 329 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 4: get the technology, the industrial policy, and the commercial all 330 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 4: together working to solve and they actually are. I think 331 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 4: they're the first innovation targeted industrial policy scale up rapid 332 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 4: scale up. Vulcan's only three years old. They close their 333 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 4: Series A in August. I mean we're talking about one 334 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 4: point four billion that they got in a CONSORTIU together 335 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 4: with a company called re Element that recycles magnets. They 336 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 4: take the rare earths and they actually manufacture magnets. That 337 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 4: is incredibly interesting. They do it on it. They're doing 338 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 4: it on a a super fast scaling time horizon. I 339 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 4: think they are aiming for twenty twenty seven to start 340 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 4: rolling product out and have been going through the validation 341 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 4: process with all of their different types of magnets, so 342 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 4: they're doing this on an accelerated basis. They got funded 343 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 4: by every branch in the military, so they have a 344 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 4: built in supply a demand from the US military right there. 345 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 4: They also have semiconductor and an aerospace. They're really looking 346 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 4: to target the national security and the top economic security 347 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 4: challenges and they have the partners to do that. So 348 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 4: I think that's a good example of how we want 349 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 4: to do. 350 00:18:54,280 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 3: This moving forward. Adjacent to the off take issue, who 351 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 3: actually owns the waste water that we could potentially be 352 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 3: you know, extracting valuable things from. 353 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 4: So we have lots of different types of waste. So 354 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 4: we have industrial waste that comes from mines where you 355 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 4: have primary metals that are that are extracted, but you 356 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 4: have the piles of tailings that sit there on the 357 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 4: side because they're either there's no commercial viability to extract 358 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 4: them or they are you know, they're just considered they're 359 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 4: considered piles of waste. Both in operating mines and in 360 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 4: minds that have closed down. You have coal ash that 361 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 4: is toxic leftover waste from coal mining. You have e waste, 362 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 4: which is I think one of the more promising areas 363 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 4: we Actually if you look at old hard drive and 364 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 4: cell phones and batteries and the like, there are tons 365 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 4: of rare earths that are in there and actually magnets 366 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 4: that are in there from years you know, when we 367 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 4: actually had much greater rare earth's you know, intensity in 368 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 4: those magnets before we started to like having to have 369 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 4: to scale back. So if you look at the waste ecosystem, 370 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 4: we have a lot of domestic opportunity. And that's actually 371 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 4: why I think Bulkan is a really good example. They 372 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 4: pull from domestic recycled e waste and then they process 373 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 4: and manufacture magnets in a completely domestic cycle. 374 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 3: Joe, that's interesting about coal ash. I could have been 375 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 3: mining my ashes from burning the coal stove in Connecticut 376 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 3: that first year, mining them for rare earths if only 377 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 3: I had. 378 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 2: None at another missed opportunity to exploit. 379 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 3: To monetize my natural resource. 380 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 2: To monetize the natural resources on your land that you 381 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 2: had in Connecticut. Let's talk about Okay, so we understand 382 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 2: there's various measures and opportunities and resources and technological opportunities 383 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 2: and things that we're going to allow because that are 384 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: already us scaling up, et cetera. Talk to us more 385 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,239 Speaker 2: like from a policy perspective, what do we need to 386 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 2: do to get from what we already have cooking and 387 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 2: what's already in the works to where we feel good 388 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 2: about where we are and from does policy what it 389 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 2: needs to happen in the form of legislation, or does 390 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 2: the government the federal government as currently constituted, have the 391 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 2: cash and the policy levers to pull without new laws 392 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 2: being passed. 393 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 4: So policy plays an enormous role. And the first thing 394 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 4: we need to do is actually understand that we can't 395 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 4: do a fragmented approach to this because you end up 396 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 4: losing innovation that might actually change the chessboard entirely. With China, 397 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 4: you also have to deal with waste from a policy basis, 398 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 4: because we actually don't track waste. It's very hard to 399 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 4: find data on how much e waste the US pretty uses. 400 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 4: We ship some of it to Asia that is very 401 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 4: likely fed back into China's massive recycling machine. We shouldn't 402 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 4: be exporting if you consider this as America's next mind. 403 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 4: There are ways to address policy that can provide the data, 404 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 4: maybe restrict the exports till we know exactly what value 405 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 4: is hidden inside all of the stuff that we're exporting, 406 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 4: and then come up with a whole a whole strategy 407 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 4: that is a critical minerals innovation strategy. That sits alongside 408 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 4: our other critical minerals strategy and develop that through not 409 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 4: only the policy tools around waste, but also financial tools. 410 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 4: Where are the values of death? Where do we find them? 411 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 4: How can we solve them? How can we use government 412 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 4: as a poll to get companies together in consortia to 413 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 4: actually have those off take agreements early on and also 414 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 4: work with the material engineers to design what they're going 415 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 4: to need earlier on in the process. They're like, there 416 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 4: are a lot of ways to do this. One of 417 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 4: the big takeaways is that there is a specific equity 418 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 4: value of death that a venture like entity could help 419 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 4: solve this for because you don't have the venture outside 420 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 4: of some really big frontier you know, risk takers that 421 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 4: will invest in difficult technology. So I think having some 422 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 4: kind of a counter that we have now in the 423 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 4: you know, in the instruments the d D has. You know, 424 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 4: we have a whole range of different agencies that have 425 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 4: all loan based they're almost all loan based instruments, and 426 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 4: that's not what this is. These are tech companies and 427 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 4: they really can't sustain debt. They're not there. You need 428 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 4: to have that VC come in early on and help 429 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 4: them through various series of fundraising, partner with others, bring 430 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 4: in other parts like private vcs throughout the process, and 431 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 4: we need to and we do have one of those 432 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 4: right now that is INQTEL. It is not technically I 433 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 4: don't know if you've heard of Intel, but it is okay, 434 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 4: very good. They are. Actually they recognized this gap in 435 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 4: the capital structure and the actual ability for these breakthrough 436 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 4: technologies to fundraise, and so they actually created a separate 437 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 4: fund within in QTEL called their Compass Fund. And they're 438 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 4: not it's not just the CIA, They're a nonprofit. They 439 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 4: worked sort of across the intelligence agencies and they've grown 440 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 4: over the past twenty five years from what they started out, 441 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 4: which was really a very like a boutique VC for 442 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 4: specific solving specific problems for the intelligence world. So they 443 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 4: have invested in actually going back to one of your 444 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 4: earlier questions, how did I find these companies? Well, it 445 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 4: ends up that they have invested. They invested in two 446 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 4: companies that I had found through Aims National Lab and 447 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 4: so I think they were extremely helpful in thinking through 448 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 4: what the gaps actually were, and we really nailed this 449 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 4: early stage VC needing to come from government. It's a 450 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 4: market failure. Until we have solved for that market failure, 451 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 4: these will just lie on the shelf. 452 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 3: Inktel has one mission to be the most sophisticated source 453 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,360 Speaker 3: of strategic technical knowledge and capabilities to the US government 454 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 3: and its allies. That's through capital. That's an interesting one, 455 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 3: an episode on we should for sure. Okay, So since 456 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 3: we're talking about the CIA and you brought up the 457 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 3: military earlier, this is going to be a natural segue. 458 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 3: I promise you bring up a historical analogy in your paper, 459 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 3: a previous choke point that was militarily, very very significant 460 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 3: for the US at a very very historical time, which 461 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 3: we actually managed to solve through industrial policy. How much 462 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 3: relevance does that particular analogy have to our current situation. 463 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 4: Well, I love this analogy because as we were contemplating 464 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 4: entering World War Two, the Japanese cut off the supply 465 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 4: chain for natural rubber in Southeast Asia, and we were 466 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 4: dependent on this flow for ninety percent of our rubber, right. 467 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 3: And we can't go through rubber trees. 468 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 4: Rubber came from Southeast Asia for a reason. And what 469 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 4: we did was we actually we took technology, synthetic rubber technology, 470 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 4: and we scaled it like crazy, so we actually were 471 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 4: able to provide for you know, for trucks and tanks 472 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 4: and everything that rubber goes into that we had never 473 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 4: even thought about but until it was gone, and we 474 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 4: were not able to actually enter World War two without 475 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 4: the ability to provide something in replacing that rubber supply. 476 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 4: And so we did it both through a rapid warp 477 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 4: speed Manhattan Project. I mean, we think of Manhattan Project 478 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 4: for the atomic bomb. But at the same time I 479 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,959 Speaker 4: think there's a good case to be made that without 480 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 4: synthetic rubber, we would not have won World War Two. 481 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 4: The other side of that was that we did a 482 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 4: huge you know, all of the population should check in 483 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 4: their extra rubber tires and their raincoats and their garden 484 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 4: hoses and whatever you could for the war effort, so 485 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 4: that we could actually use and recycle rubber that we 486 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 4: had already here. So it's a too pronged I think 487 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 4: the analogy that works. 488 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 3: There are some great like posters from World War two 489 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 3: about recycling your tires and things like that, nice graphic design. 490 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 2: I have boxes of like old iPhones and stuff that randomly, 491 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 2: I bet I have ten lap ten old laptops and 492 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 2: Ringdom stuff. 493 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 4: And the way that I mean, the way that the 494 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 4: cycles of like upgrades happen. I mean, everybody has tons 495 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 4: of like old laptops where the software doesn't work anymore, 496 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 4: and so this is actually a huge opportunity. So we 497 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,959 Speaker 4: could actually make it a national priority. And there are 498 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 4: ways to do that through government incentive, you know, you 499 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 4: can there are ways that companies can do that through 500 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 4: paying for old you know, old unused, unusable technologies and 501 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 4: then have maybe get a government credit. There are like 502 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,479 Speaker 4: a lot of ways you can be creative about getting 503 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 4: this this entire system to rev up. 504 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 3: You mentioned warp speed just then, and so you know, 505 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 3: the obvious thing that comes to mind is also the 506 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 3: COVID vaccination efforts. Can these types of programs exist without 507 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 3: a coinciding national emergency to galvanize everyone into action. And 508 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 3: I totally take it that competing with China is one 509 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 3: of those rare areas of bipartisan agreement nowadays. But at 510 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 3: the same time, shortages potential choke points in rare Earth's 511 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 3: has been a long running issue. We've been aware of 512 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 3: it for a while. So far, we haven't really done 513 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 3: that much. What's going to galvanize people now and really 514 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 3: lend this whole effort a sense of urgency. 515 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 4: So I think we actually do have a national emergency. 516 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 4: And certainly, you know, policy makers and companies understand that 517 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 4: when China shut off. 518 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 3: Access and so you that was the moment. 519 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 4: I think that was the moment where it really hit 520 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 4: that not only over reliance, but up to one hundred 521 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 4: percent reliance. That's like that. I mean, the Chinese cut 522 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 4: off access to the technology that they had developed for refining, 523 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 4: for extracting. They actually when we had that one year pause, 524 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 4: one of the things that the Council on for relations 525 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 4: partner Silverado Policy Accelerator, they had done a lot of 526 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 4: work on what China was actually exporting after that October 527 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 4: lifting of the of the export controls. They're exporting magnets, 528 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 4: but they're not exporting those rare earths or the technology 529 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 4: that we need to actually produce the same for ourselves. 530 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting that like they won't export the rare earth, 531 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 3: they'll export the finish material, which. 532 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 2: Is the component. 533 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. 534 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, well you want to you want to climb the 535 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 2: value chain, yeah, right and away the low margency. You know, 536 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: I mentioned it seems like there is some continuity on 537 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 2: some of this stuff from the last administration to this one. 538 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 2: When you're in DC talking to people, do you sent 539 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 2: from the on the policy side or on the government side, 540 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,959 Speaker 2: do you feel that there is a sort of intensity 541 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 2: and focus, Because again, when you you know, you go 542 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 2: back to World War Two, one thing I associate with 543 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 2: that time is just an incredible amount of like focus 544 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,959 Speaker 2: on solving specific things in coordination. Do you sense that 545 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 2: that exists? 546 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 4: So just as with World War Two, there were there 547 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 4: were a lot of officials flagging the fact that we 548 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 4: were over dependent on single sources or the toe point 549 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 4: was the shipping lanes, and there's a huge parallel here. 550 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 4: During the bid deministration, one of the first things during 551 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 4: the first hundred days the Biden administration did it resilience 552 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 4: study and basically looked at where the choke points were. 553 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 4: This was after COVID, It was looking at pharmaceuticals, it 554 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 4: was looking but one of the big takeaways was that 555 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 4: we were so overdependent on China for rare earth and 556 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 4: critical materials, critical minerals, that we had to do something asap. 557 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 4: The Trump administration and Trump one also understood that we 558 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 4: had this huge vulnerability and critical minerals, and they had 559 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 4: they passed it, you know, a number of executive orders 560 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 4: and tried to get the whole process started for mining permitting, 561 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 4: you know, reducing permitting times, environmental you know, restrictions and timelines. 562 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 4: But it's again, it's a it's a complete parallel with 563 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 4: what happened in the run up to World War Two. 564 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 4: We actually have seen this coming for a very long time, 565 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,959 Speaker 4: and it wasn't until China shut off the access that 566 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 4: it that the US and Europe kind of woke up 567 00:31:55,040 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 4: to the fact that this is a big problem. 568 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 2: You know, one thing you mentioned the national labs. They're 569 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 2: under threat, right, I mean, like you talked about them 570 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 2: as being this important crown jewel of the US economy, 571 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 2: US industry. All these stories about funding cuts, et cetera. 572 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 2: What is the intersection there, And from your perspective anyway, 573 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: are we undercutting our own efforts through some of these 574 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:34,479 Speaker 2: budgetary choices. 575 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 4: Absolutely, I mean this is something that we do really 576 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 4: really well. The whole world looks at the way that 577 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 4: DARPA and ARPA E and the national labs that are 578 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 4: associated are actually like huge innovation engines. Often it's a 579 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 4: matter of people coming in entrepreneurs coming in and understanding 580 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 4: what the applications of the science can be to commercialize it. 581 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 4: But this is exactly the time where we have to 582 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 4: double down on the innovation and the investment in R 583 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 4: and D that is not only in the national labs, 584 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 4: but also universities, because that's where this is coming from 585 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 4: as well. Nyron's you know, breakthrough came from University of Minnesota, 586 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 4: So I think, you know, you want to make sure 587 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 4: that right now, in this particular moment, the solutions can 588 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 4: come from biotech as opposed to mining tech. You don't 589 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 4: want to be cutting off any channels of investment in 590 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 4: R and D right now. 591 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 3: How often do you hear people in DC talk about 592 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 3: the potential for capital misallocation when it comes to rare 593 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 3: earth or is the idea of I guess Cylindro with magnets, 594 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 3: is that not as much of a looming concern given 595 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 3: the urgency of the problem. 596 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 4: I think that the demonization of risk taken on Cleindra 597 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 4: has really plagued us for a long time. We have 598 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 4: to be much more ready to take risk and be 599 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 4: like hold hands on a bi partisan basis and realize 600 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 4: that this is a big moment where we have to 601 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 4: actually take more risk. 602 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 3: So I do love all the analogies we've used in 603 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 3: this conversation. So obviously synthetic rubber, but you mentioned fracking before, 604 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 3: and a lot of people will conceide that fracking was 605 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 3: incredibly crucial to America's economic well being nowadays and we've 606 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 3: become an energy exporter. But at the same time, there's 607 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 3: an externality, a negative externality associated with fracking, which is 608 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 3: environmental damage, and there's a lot of concern and also 609 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 3: controversy about how much impact that actually has. What are 610 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 3: the trade offs that the US would have to think 611 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 3: about as we encourage more of a domestic rare earth industry. 612 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 4: So again, there are trade offs, and I think one 613 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,320 Speaker 4: of the you know, I'm going to pivot back to 614 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 4: the innovation because I think one of the ways we 615 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 4: can do this in a clean way is through some 616 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 4: of these new technologies you were talking about, and they're 617 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 4: you know, the so Rio Tinto is using a proprietary 618 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 4: new microbe that they have that they've just started utilizing 619 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 4: in some of their old minds in Arizona where they 620 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:20,879 Speaker 4: didn't have the ability to economically extract copper but using microbes, 621 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 4: they are able in a clean way to use a 622 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 4: biotech solution to actually extract copper on a cost competitive 623 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,879 Speaker 4: basis that they were not able to extract. And they're 624 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 4: rolling this out right now, they'll be doing it in 625 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 4: the months ahead. And I think it's really noteworthy that 626 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 4: that you have, you know, a large mining company that 627 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 4: is taking a plunge into a biotech solution to how 628 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 4: to unlock value that they thought the mind was basically, 629 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 4: you know, it was closed. So we can do that 630 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 4: in a way that is clean. We can do it 631 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 4: in a way that's fast and cost competitive, and so 632 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 4: I think that there are ways to do that using innovation. 633 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 4: I think we need to be very mindful of that 634 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 4: because mining and refining our dirty businesses. That's just that's life. 635 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 4: And if we can do them, if we do them 636 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,399 Speaker 4: in a cleaner way, then that is a much more 637 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 4: sustainable way to actually have, you know, have an industry 638 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,760 Speaker 4: moving forward that actually suits the national interest. 639 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 2: We did that Biotech VC episode so much interesting biotech 640 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 2: stuff that I never really thought. 641 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 3: About that I never thought. 642 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 2: Much more to do on learning about some of the science. 643 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 2: Howd Kribohdicker, thank you so much for coming on odd laws, 644 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,879 Speaker 2: fascinating report. Encourage everyone to go read it and check 645 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 2: it out or actually some ideas out there, not just 646 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,720 Speaker 2: people identifying problems. 647 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 4: That was great, Thank you so much. 648 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 5: Great to be with you, Cracy. 649 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 2: Want to learn more about industrial biotech, Yeah, I mean 650 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 2: we mentioned it during the conversation, but I feel like 651 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 2: there could be tons of interesting episodes on the crossover 652 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 2: of so that sort of natural science and mining and 653 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 2: stuff like that. 654 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 3: Well, I'm looking at a page on Rio Tinto's website 655 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 3: right now, and the title is Life finds Away Microbes, 656 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 3: and then it says while dinosaurs vanish their tiny companions, 657 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 3: microbes adapted and thrived, proving their resilience over time, and 658 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,760 Speaker 3: now they can be used as some of our most 659 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 3: groundbreaking advancements in mining. 660 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 2: So that's pretty cool. 661 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's exciting. 662 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 2: Let's let's get a sciencest or something on there. I 663 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 2: talk about microboscience. 664 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 3: I kind of want to see how all of this works, 665 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 3: But of course you can't actually see the microbes, so 666 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 3: I'll just have to think about it. 667 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 2: Just imagine you've got to be YouTube. At least we 668 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,439 Speaker 2: could go on the road to some mine. Right, I'm sure, 669 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 2: and like water just looked like no. But I thought 670 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 2: that was really interesting. I guess I thought, you know, 671 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 2: in my mind when I think about some of the 672 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 2: when I thought about the rare Earth's challenge before, I 673 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,280 Speaker 2: sort of assumed I suppose that, Okay, the US probably 674 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 2: could overcome our industrial reliance at the cost of a 675 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 2: lot of money. It caught basically a lot of loss 676 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 2: making investment, because again that's the nature of defense. National 677 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 2: security is Okay, you just say, have to sometimes spend money, 678 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,759 Speaker 2: et cetera. So it's interesting the prospect that there are 679 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 2: technologies that not only could solve perhaps the sort of 680 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 2: strategic element, but that actually could be cost competitive, perhaps 681 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,320 Speaker 2: could create export opportunities, could perhaps also be for provid 682 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 2: That's very interesting and I hadn't really appreciated that prior 683 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 2: to Heidi's report. 684 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the overall thrust of the report this 685 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 3: idea of like, Okay, you're not going to beat China 686 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 3: necessarily on its own territory. You're certainly not going to 687 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 3: beat them in the same way that China has developed 688 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 3: this industry by you know, basically ignoring a lot of 689 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 3: environmental concerns and things like that. So you have to 690 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 3: turn to the US's own competitive advantage, which is research 691 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 3: and developed. Yeah, and also like huge amounts of government capital, 692 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 3: which you know, sometimes we have an issue deploying, sometimes 693 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 3: we don't. It was super interesting that Heidi described, you know, 694 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 3: the recent cutting off of China's rare earths as like 695 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 3: the moment where people have really realized this is an issue, 696 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 3: and so there is a potential to actually galvanize some action. 697 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 2: I have no doubt in my mind that the US 698 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 2: has the sort of capacity we know how be science, 699 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 2: the natural resources, the money, et cetera, to do it. 700 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 2: The only question, of course, whether we have the sort 701 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 2: of organizational capacity. And of course, you know, the the 702 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 2: National Research Labs are sort of the prime example of 703 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 2: the concern here is the site with liter a lot 704 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 2: of these innovations come from. There's this widespread acknowledgment that 705 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 2: this is a very serious thing, and apparently you know, 706 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 2: they're seeing their budgets impaired. At the same time, Can 707 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 2: everyone get on the same page. Can we prioritize things, 708 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 2: Can we say that we want to move in concert 709 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,240 Speaker 2: or do you just have these like say, political fights 710 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 2: and these various factions et cetera. They are not coordinated, 711 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:05,839 Speaker 2: they're not on the same page. They are working at 712 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 2: cross purposes. That remain my main source of concern. But 713 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 2: I would say, perhaps to your point, maybe there has 714 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 2: been some galvanization and maybe there are some paths here. 715 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 3: Wow, I'm still in this Rio Tinto side. Yeah, it's great. 716 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,839 Speaker 3: It's they keep making references to Jurassic Park, which is 717 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,959 Speaker 3: not something I expected from Rio Tinto. But anyway, shall 718 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 3: we leave it there. 719 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 2: Let's leave it there, all right? 720 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 3: This has been another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 721 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 3: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. 722 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. 723 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 2: Follow our producers Common Rodriguez at Carmen armand dash Ol 724 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 2: Bennett at Dashbod and Keil Brooks at Keil Brooks. From 725 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 2: well Odd Lodge content. Go to Bloomberg dot com flash 726 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 2: Odd Lots for the daily newsletter and all of our episodes, 727 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 2: and you can chat about all of these topics. Twenty 728 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,240 Speaker 2: four so, I mean in our discord discord gg slash 729 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:54,359 Speaker 2: odlines and if. 730 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,359 Speaker 3: You enjoy Odd Lots, if you want us to go 731 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 3: on a microbe mining tour, then please leave us a 732 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 3: positive on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you 733 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 3: are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of 734 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 3: our episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to do 735 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 3: is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow 736 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 3: the instructions there. Thanks for listening.