WEBVTT - The Cutting Edge of Energy Storage: Rust 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.876 Pushkin. America's power grid is arguably the largest machine ever 0:00:24.916 --> 0:00:28.276 built in the history of the world. Thousands of power plants, 0:00:28.436 --> 0:00:31.996 millions of miles of power lines, all delivering exactly as 0:00:32.076 --> 0:00:36.396 much power as everybody wants, almost all of the time. Now, 0:00:36.756 --> 0:00:39.036 in order to become more efficient and to move away 0:00:39.076 --> 0:00:43.556 from fossil fuel, that machine has to be completely rebuilt. 0:00:44.116 --> 0:00:46.156 The other day I talked to one of the people 0:00:46.316 --> 0:00:50.996 who's rebuilding it. You're wearing a bright yellow vet, like 0:00:50.996 --> 0:00:53.596 a neon yellow work vest, got a little American flag 0:00:53.636 --> 0:00:57.676 in the corner. So where are you right now that 0:00:57.796 --> 0:00:58.996 you need that vest? 0:00:59.676 --> 0:01:02.036 Well, I'm in the factory and we're in West Virginia. 0:01:02.116 --> 0:01:04.476 It's about five hundred thousand square feet under roof that 0:01:04.516 --> 0:01:08.636 we have right now, and the activity under that roof 0:01:08.876 --> 0:01:12.276 is everything from cell assembly. So we're operating that line 0:01:12.636 --> 0:01:14.236 to finish in construction of the building. 0:01:14.876 --> 0:01:17.236 So you're building batteries at the factory and you're also 0:01:17.276 --> 0:01:18.676 building more factory at the. 0:01:18.636 --> 0:01:21.916 Factory, exactly, yes, all simultaneously. 0:01:27.716 --> 0:01:30.156 I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is what's your problem? The 0:01:30.196 --> 0:01:32.356 show where I talk to people who are trying to 0:01:32.436 --> 0:01:37.436 make technological progress. My guest today is Matteo Haemio. He's 0:01:37.476 --> 0:01:41.636 the co founder and CEO of Form Energy. Matteo started 0:01:41.676 --> 0:01:45.156 his company because he realized that in order to rebuild 0:01:45.196 --> 0:01:48.196 the grid, in order to move off fossil fuels, the 0:01:48.236 --> 0:01:52.556 world will very likely need batteries that are profoundly different 0:01:52.596 --> 0:01:56.836 than the batteries we have now. Specifically, Matteo's problem is this, 0:01:57.836 --> 0:02:01.836 how do you build batteries at scale that provide affordable 0:02:02.076 --> 0:02:06.996 backup power to the grid, not for two hours, four hours, 0:02:07.076 --> 0:02:11.756 or six hours, but for one one hundred hours. Matteo 0:02:11.836 --> 0:02:14.596 has been working on batteries for about twenty years. He's 0:02:14.596 --> 0:02:16.916 been doing it since before it was cool, and back 0:02:16.956 --> 0:02:19.236 in two thousand and nine he went to work at Tesla. 0:02:22.116 --> 0:02:25.156 So I went there specifically to put batteries on the grid, 0:02:25.196 --> 0:02:28.396 to take that technology and the balance of system which 0:02:28.436 --> 0:02:31.836 Tesla is excellent at, and take it out of the 0:02:31.836 --> 0:02:34.036 car and put it on the grid. And JB. Strabo, 0:02:34.076 --> 0:02:36.796 who is the CTO and my boss at Tesla while 0:02:36.796 --> 0:02:40.476 I was there, shared that vision and you know, in 0:02:40.476 --> 0:02:42.996 fact has always been a leader on this stuff, and 0:02:43.316 --> 0:02:44.636 so he gave me the room to run to do 0:02:44.676 --> 0:02:47.836 that internally in Tessa. 0:02:46.596 --> 0:02:50.876 And so you basically started the Tesla powerwall business. 0:02:50.916 --> 0:02:53.516 There is that, right, that's right, more than just the 0:02:53.516 --> 0:02:55.596 power wall, so what we call the power pack and 0:02:55.636 --> 0:02:59.116 subsequently megapac, but batteries on the grid, yes, exactly. 0:02:59.356 --> 0:03:03.436 So what is the limit of lithium and batteries? I mean, 0:03:03.436 --> 0:03:06.516 your company now is not a lithium ion battery company. 0:03:06.596 --> 0:03:09.556 Is there sort of a moment when you realize that 0:03:09.596 --> 0:03:12.716 lithium ion batteries are not going to solve all of 0:03:12.756 --> 0:03:16.196 the problems that need to be solved to shift to 0:03:16.796 --> 0:03:18.276 all renewable energy all the time. 0:03:18.996 --> 0:03:23.836 Yeah, lithium mind batteries are a fantastic technology, but like 0:03:23.876 --> 0:03:27.836 any battery technology, there is a compromise somewhere, and in 0:03:27.876 --> 0:03:30.876 the case of lithium ion, it is cost. They are 0:03:30.916 --> 0:03:36.076 phenomenally energy dense, they cycle wonderfully, they are produced at 0:03:36.116 --> 0:03:38.956 massive scale, they're very they are in fact very safe, 0:03:39.516 --> 0:03:43.156 but they cost a lot for the kinds of problems 0:03:43.196 --> 0:03:45.236 that we also want to solve on the grid. Not 0:03:45.436 --> 0:03:50.596 just single digit duration hours intermittency challenges, right the sun 0:03:50.676 --> 0:03:54.276 going down and then coming back every morning, but multiple 0:03:54.356 --> 0:03:58.996 days of duration or even seasonal imbalances, and that duration 0:03:59.156 --> 0:04:02.676 of challenge. Lithium mind simply is not suited purely from 0:04:02.716 --> 0:04:06.156 a cost perspective to address, And so that was the 0:04:06.236 --> 0:04:09.116 challenge that I went after as soon as I left us. 0:04:08.796 --> 0:04:11.796 So let's talk about Let's talk about duration, because that's 0:04:11.796 --> 0:04:15.116 obviously central to what you're doing. How long are lithium 0:04:15.276 --> 0:04:20.116 batteries sort of techno economically useful for like, presumably you 0:04:20.156 --> 0:04:21.836 could just keep adding them and you could have as 0:04:21.916 --> 0:04:24.556 much duration as you want with lithium ion batteries, but 0:04:24.596 --> 0:04:26.596 it would be wildly expensive and nobody's ever going to 0:04:26.596 --> 0:04:29.796 do it right. So for how long are they actually 0:04:29.996 --> 0:04:33.156 economically efficient for energy storage on the grid. 0:04:34.156 --> 0:04:37.076 Well, today, most of the lithium mind that's being put 0:04:37.076 --> 0:04:39.836 on the grid is between two and four hour rated 0:04:39.876 --> 0:04:43.476 power duration. So at its rated power, you start using 0:04:43.516 --> 0:04:45.876 the battery and it's empty in two or four hours. 0:04:45.916 --> 0:04:49.116 And what's been interesting is to see that duration evolve 0:04:49.276 --> 0:04:51.596 over time. So when the first lithium batteries were put 0:04:51.596 --> 0:04:55.836 on the grid, they were rated at fifteen minutes of duration, 0:04:56.516 --> 0:04:58.556 and then it crept up to thirty minutes, and then 0:04:58.596 --> 0:05:01.356 it's an hour, and you know, now it's two to 0:05:01.396 --> 0:05:02.036 four hours. 0:05:01.836 --> 0:05:04.236 And is that just a function of the batteries getting cheaper, 0:05:04.316 --> 0:05:05.076 so you can. 0:05:06.036 --> 0:05:08.996 In yeah, purely a function of cost, and so you 0:05:09.116 --> 0:05:12.756 you can take that cost and duration pairing and see 0:05:12.756 --> 0:05:15.036 where it's going to go. As certain costs, there's a 0:05:15.316 --> 0:05:20.036 there's a duration that is directly implied as a result, 0:05:20.116 --> 0:05:22.756 and so we know where the cost curve for lithium 0:05:22.756 --> 0:05:24.516 mine is going, and therefore we know where the duration 0:05:24.836 --> 0:05:25.476 is also going. 0:05:25.716 --> 0:05:28.716 So let's talk about that two to four hour duration 0:05:28.796 --> 0:05:31.596 that lithium ion batteries are at. Now, Like that seems 0:05:31.756 --> 0:05:35.716 very useful in the context of like those moments when 0:05:35.756 --> 0:05:37.556 it's a hot day and everybody gets home from work 0:05:37.596 --> 0:05:40.476 and turns up the air conditioner, and you know, traditionally 0:05:40.516 --> 0:05:43.556 we're now still in many places utilities have to turn 0:05:43.556 --> 0:05:48.196 on these very inefficient gas powered peaker plants, right, and 0:05:48.236 --> 0:05:52.036 if we can use lithium ion batteries to solve that, 0:05:52.116 --> 0:05:55.076 to prevent that from happening, like, that's great, right, Like 0:05:55.116 --> 0:05:57.756 that is a very useful step in the evolution away 0:05:57.876 --> 0:06:04.476 from fossil fuel. Precise why is that insufficient? Like, what's 0:06:04.516 --> 0:06:06.036 the next thing that we need that. 0:06:05.996 --> 0:06:08.756 We don't have, Well, the next thing that we don't 0:06:08.756 --> 0:06:11.196 have is what happens if you have one day that's 0:06:11.276 --> 0:06:13.316 like that, and then the next day that's like that, 0:06:13.436 --> 0:06:15.516 and the next day that's like that. You know, stressing 0:06:15.516 --> 0:06:17.756 the peak multiple days in a row. And it could 0:06:17.796 --> 0:06:20.156 be a stress that comes from heat, or it could 0:06:20.196 --> 0:06:22.716 be a stress that comes from cold, or could be 0:06:22.716 --> 0:06:26.916 a stress that comes from cloud cover storms. Right, because 0:06:27.036 --> 0:06:29.316 you know, one premise, of course, of the four hour 0:06:29.396 --> 0:06:31.396 battery is that you can recharge it when you need to, 0:06:31.916 --> 0:06:34.356 And all of a sudden, if you're in a weather 0:06:34.396 --> 0:06:38.516 event where recharging is highly uneconomic or it's not even possible, 0:06:39.076 --> 0:06:43.276 then then different solutions are needed, and different durations are 0:06:43.316 --> 0:06:47.076 also needed. So how do you ride through entirely these 0:06:47.156 --> 0:06:50.516 multi day duration weather events which we see in every 0:06:50.596 --> 0:06:53.116 market around the world. 0:06:52.676 --> 0:06:57.476 So if we're at like four hours, there's any number 0:06:57.636 --> 0:07:00.396 of sort of hours, there's any amount of duration that 0:07:00.436 --> 0:07:02.876 you could kind of try and tackle next, right, it 0:07:02.876 --> 0:07:05.196 could be twelve or it could be twenty four. Now, 0:07:05.276 --> 0:07:06.996 but you end up going all the way to one 0:07:07.036 --> 0:07:09.796 hundred or one hundred ish, which I assume you didn't 0:07:09.796 --> 0:07:12.596 pick just because it's a satisfying round number, although it 0:07:12.636 --> 0:07:16.196 is a satisfying round number, Like why why do you 0:07:16.276 --> 0:07:18.316 decide to go all the way from four to one hundred. 0:07:20.436 --> 0:07:23.476 It's a great question before in fact, we even started 0:07:23.476 --> 0:07:25.356 the company, and the question was, well, how do you 0:07:25.436 --> 0:07:28.076 solve the seasonal challenge? Right, that sort of winter to 0:07:28.116 --> 0:07:33.156 summer challenge for energy storage? And it's you can sort 0:07:33.196 --> 0:07:35.156 of have a gut sense for it. Well, but it 0:07:35.156 --> 0:07:37.756 covers a very wide range. Do we need ten hours? 0:07:37.796 --> 0:07:39.836 Do we need two thousand hours? So how do we 0:07:39.876 --> 0:07:41.876 win of that down? And well, this is how we 0:07:41.956 --> 0:07:45.436 framed it up. What duration energy storage do you need 0:07:45.476 --> 0:07:48.916 to solve those problems? And then what is implied about 0:07:48.916 --> 0:07:50.876 the cost for that and can you build something that 0:07:50.956 --> 0:07:53.556 actually hits that cost target? And so the one hundred 0:07:53.636 --> 0:07:57.796 hours falls out of that very deep technical exercise. If 0:07:57.836 --> 0:08:00.836 we say to take the state my home state of California, 0:08:00.876 --> 0:08:04.116 for example, one percent of the carbon emissions on the 0:08:04.156 --> 0:08:06.196 electric grid comes from natural gas. There is no more 0:08:06.196 --> 0:08:08.516 coal in state of California, and if you look at 0:08:08.596 --> 0:08:13.236 the way that the natural gas fleet participates in that system, 0:08:13.476 --> 0:08:15.436 if we want to be able to drive to a 0:08:15.436 --> 0:08:20.356 deeper decarbonization for that particular grid, which California does legislatively, 0:08:20.356 --> 0:08:24.556 it's bound to, then we have to functionally replace at 0:08:24.676 --> 0:08:28.916 least some of those natural gas plants. And when we 0:08:28.956 --> 0:08:33.396 look at what the battery needs to do technically, it 0:08:33.516 --> 0:08:36.196 needs to be able to provide that at least four 0:08:36.236 --> 0:08:39.676 day duration range. So just functionally, that's what it has 0:08:39.716 --> 0:08:41.676 to do. It's got to cover those cloudy you know, 0:08:41.676 --> 0:08:43.716 three or four days in a row when the solar 0:08:43.796 --> 0:08:45.276 is not really contributing to the system. 0:08:45.316 --> 0:08:47.196 And so in the case of California, you have the 0:08:47.316 --> 0:08:50.836 law on your side exactly. It's like, well, these utilities 0:08:50.836 --> 0:08:53.876 are going to have to buy something, so let's figure 0:08:53.876 --> 0:08:55.436 out how to be the ones to sell it to them. 0:08:55.476 --> 0:08:57.436 And in particular, what they're going to need to buy 0:08:57.716 --> 0:09:01.876 is order of magnitude days, not hours, not weeks of 0:09:01.996 --> 0:09:03.236 energy storage. 0:09:02.996 --> 0:09:05.676 That's right, And if you need those days, then the 0:09:05.716 --> 0:09:07.676 cost falls out of that and you have to be 0:09:07.756 --> 0:09:10.356 somewhere around twenty dollars per kilo whatt hour again one 0:09:10.476 --> 0:09:14.116 tenth maybe the future cost of lithium ion. That's where 0:09:14.156 --> 0:09:17.996 we started, and so that's where the pairing of one 0:09:18.036 --> 0:09:20.996 hundred hours and roughly twenty dollars per kilo era comes in. 0:09:21.396 --> 0:09:23.356 It all falls out of the modeling that is done 0:09:23.396 --> 0:09:27.956 to really understand the electric system and how it operates 0:09:27.996 --> 0:09:28.996 as a portfolio. 0:09:29.316 --> 0:09:32.356 So now you have this frame and you've got to 0:09:32.356 --> 0:09:36.596 figure out how to build a battery that has a 0:09:36.676 --> 0:09:40.356 sufficient duration at a low enough cost. And there's a 0:09:40.396 --> 0:09:43.316 lot of options, right, there's a lot of like weird 0:09:43.516 --> 0:09:45.876 fun things people are trying to do the thing you're 0:09:45.876 --> 0:09:47.636 trying to do, Right, So how do you get to 0:09:48.756 --> 0:09:49.476 where you get to? 0:09:50.636 --> 0:09:54.716 Well, we started doing a bakeoff. Essentially, we didn't we 0:09:54.716 --> 0:09:57.756 didn't pick the technology. We knew that design space we 0:09:57.796 --> 0:09:59.756 had to operate inside of, and that was that one 0:09:59.836 --> 0:10:03.676 hundred hour twenty dollars per killer hour range. And we 0:10:03.756 --> 0:10:07.636 had a couple contending chemistries that we liked. One was 0:10:07.676 --> 0:10:11.036 sulfur based, the other was iron based. We had some 0:10:11.076 --> 0:10:14.076 other ideas as well, but when we first founded the 0:10:14.076 --> 0:10:18.196 company and took investment, our promise for that to those investors, 0:10:18.196 --> 0:10:20.316 for the very first round of funding was we will 0:10:20.396 --> 0:10:23.116 identify the most promising chemistry, not that we were going 0:10:23.156 --> 0:10:24.956 to solve it or that we could prove that we 0:10:24.996 --> 0:10:25.556 had a market. 0:10:25.596 --> 0:10:27.916 So people are giving you money to build batteries and 0:10:27.956 --> 0:10:29.756 you didn't even know what the batteries were going to 0:10:29.796 --> 0:10:31.276 be exactly. 0:10:31.676 --> 0:10:35.836 Yeah, but to be clear, that's because the opportunity is 0:10:36.876 --> 0:10:40.196 overwhelmingly compelling. Right, this is a trillion dollar market if 0:10:40.236 --> 0:10:42.876 you can get it right, and so that's why it 0:10:42.916 --> 0:10:46.396 was worth it to even pursue this experiment from the beginning. 0:10:46.396 --> 0:10:49.876 And so we had a couple of different technologies that 0:10:49.916 --> 0:10:52.796 we evaluated, and at the end of the first year, 0:10:52.996 --> 0:10:55.516 it was clear that iron air was the one that 0:10:55.556 --> 0:10:59.716 had the greatest chance to succeed. The entitled costs was there, 0:10:59.796 --> 0:11:02.516 the entitled embodiment of that cost as a real device 0:11:02.636 --> 0:11:06.676 was there, and the performance was there. And so that's 0:11:06.716 --> 0:11:08.116 the one that we picked, and that's the one that 0:11:08.116 --> 0:11:10.316 we said, this is what we're going to really devote 0:11:10.316 --> 0:11:11.236 our company towards. 0:11:11.556 --> 0:11:13.796 Tell me about iron, Like, why do you land on iron? 0:11:15.196 --> 0:11:19.396 Well? Iron, Besides, coal's the most mind substance on Earth, 0:11:19.596 --> 0:11:21.596 a few billion tons of it every year. 0:11:22.196 --> 0:11:24.516 Not scarce. One country is not going to lock down 0:11:24.676 --> 0:11:26.516 iron reserves for the planet. 0:11:26.796 --> 0:11:29.036 Definitely not. And you know, if you squint, it's not 0:11:29.076 --> 0:11:31.396 too hard to envision the Earth is just a rusty 0:11:31.436 --> 0:11:33.236 ball basically. 0:11:33.916 --> 0:11:37.156 Feels about right too, like vibes wise rusty balls. 0:11:36.916 --> 0:11:41.436 Yeah, exactly, exactly, And so you're never going to run 0:11:41.476 --> 0:11:44.196 out of it, of course, and you know, humans know 0:11:44.276 --> 0:11:46.796 a lot about iron. Frankly, there was a whole age 0:11:46.996 --> 0:11:51.036 of humanity that where we really played around it. 0:11:51.036 --> 0:11:54.836 It's like, well, stone not great as a battery, Bronze 0:11:54.876 --> 0:12:00.516 too expensive, Wait a minute. 0:11:58.916 --> 0:12:02.596 And so we like the idea that there is a 0:12:02.636 --> 0:12:05.396 substance that that a lot is known about but had 0:12:05.396 --> 0:12:09.596 never really been brought into the modern understanding. Electric and 0:12:10.956 --> 0:12:14.116 other iron batteries are out there. So, for example, Thomas Edison, 0:12:14.156 --> 0:12:16.436 the battery that he went to market with is a 0:12:16.516 --> 0:12:20.116 nickel iron battery using an iron anode, and that was 0:12:20.396 --> 0:12:23.116 over one hundred years ago now, and so a lot 0:12:23.196 --> 0:12:25.876 is known relatively speaking about iron anuts, but it's not 0:12:25.956 --> 0:12:29.596 an art that has been really advanced recently. And so 0:12:30.076 --> 0:12:33.756 where we started from was the best understanding that was 0:12:33.796 --> 0:12:36.116 out there about iron air, which actually comes from the 0:12:36.196 --> 0:12:38.476 nineteen seventies roughly. There was some work that was done 0:12:38.516 --> 0:12:41.956 recently at of one academic labit, but not too much. 0:12:42.036 --> 0:12:47.756 And we saw that the performance metrics that Westinghouse was 0:12:47.796 --> 0:12:49.516 able to get at a study that they did at 0:12:49.516 --> 0:12:52.756 the behest of the US Department of Energy, that if 0:12:52.756 --> 0:12:55.716 we could achieve what they had done fifty years ago. 0:12:56.516 --> 0:12:58.436 Then we had a minimum of a viable product, and 0:12:58.476 --> 0:13:00.396 we thought, we think we could probably do that. 0:13:02.556 --> 0:13:05.116 I mean, it's the basic idea, like iron is cheap 0:13:05.276 --> 0:13:09.716 and big and heavy and not that energy dense. Of course, 0:13:09.716 --> 0:13:11.796 nobody's gonna use it for a laptop or a car. 0:13:11.836 --> 0:13:13.756 It's like the opposite of what you want for a 0:13:13.796 --> 0:13:16.356 laptop or a car. But like you don't actually care 0:13:16.476 --> 0:13:19.196 in this instance if it's big and heavy, because you're 0:13:19.236 --> 0:13:22.796 just gonna put it out whatever in the desert anyways, 0:13:22.836 --> 0:13:25.156 where there's a ton of space exactly. 0:13:25.436 --> 0:13:29.236 And again, the overriding consideration here for the selection of 0:13:29.236 --> 0:13:33.196 a chemistry to pursue is cost, and specifically capex cost, 0:13:33.596 --> 0:13:37.156 and back to your earlier question, the things that we 0:13:37.196 --> 0:13:39.116 can trade off as a result. I'll give you one 0:13:39.116 --> 0:13:40.316 example cycle life. 0:13:40.476 --> 0:13:41.236 You know with you my. 0:13:41.396 --> 0:13:43.756 Batteries cycle phenomenally well thousands of times. 0:13:43.836 --> 0:13:46.316 Cycle life meaning charge and discharge and charge. 0:13:46.156 --> 0:13:46.996 Charge and discharge. 0:13:47.036 --> 0:13:47.516 That's right. 0:13:48.276 --> 0:13:50.716 But to give you an example for the way that 0:13:50.916 --> 0:13:53.156 technically we can think about a trade off in pursuit 0:13:53.156 --> 0:13:55.436 a very low cost. If I am building a battery 0:13:55.476 --> 0:13:57.356 that let's just say, discharges over the course of a 0:13:57.396 --> 0:14:00.076 week to make this easy and charges over the course 0:14:00.116 --> 0:14:04.996 of a week of efficiency. Then the maximum number number 0:14:05.036 --> 0:14:07.356 of cycles I can get in the year is twenty six, right, 0:14:07.476 --> 0:14:10.356 theoretical maximum, and over the course of a twenty year 0:14:10.396 --> 0:14:13.596 project life, it's roughly five hundred, a far cry from 0:14:13.636 --> 0:14:16.036 the thousands and thousands of cycles that lithium mine is 0:14:16.076 --> 0:14:18.996 pursuing because it needs, right, I have to be very 0:14:18.996 --> 0:14:21.476 good at charging and discharging hundreds of times, but that 0:14:21.556 --> 0:14:24.916 is a materially different challenge than thousands of times. Right. 0:14:25.796 --> 0:14:31.876 So you're close now to having real working batteries out 0:14:31.916 --> 0:14:35.356 in the world. You've been working on it for years. 0:14:36.836 --> 0:14:39.516 Is there an example of a thing that you figured 0:14:39.556 --> 0:14:41.636 out between when you started and now? 0:14:41.836 --> 0:14:44.316 Yeah, So, to be clear, we have working batteries out 0:14:44.316 --> 0:14:46.676 there in the grid right now. So we deployed our 0:14:46.676 --> 0:14:49.836 first battery connected to the grid charging and discharging about 0:14:49.836 --> 0:14:51.716 a year ago. So it was in summer of last 0:14:51.756 --> 0:14:53.516 year that our first one went out in the world 0:14:54.476 --> 0:14:56.676 and we learned a lot from that. But as far 0:14:56.716 --> 0:15:02.396 as a learning that we had along the way, it's 0:15:02.396 --> 0:15:07.596 about iron. Maybe not surprisingly. You know, iron reacts to 0:15:07.756 --> 0:15:11.596 different levels, so you have different states of oxidation for 0:15:11.876 --> 0:15:12.556 iron right, So. 0:15:12.596 --> 0:15:15.556 Basically rust in the case. That's right, that's right, that's right. 0:15:15.716 --> 0:15:18.836 And the first reaction is iron to iron hydroxide, so 0:15:18.876 --> 0:15:23.836 you have FH right, one hydroxide, and there's a theoretical 0:15:23.836 --> 0:15:25.956 limit to the amount of energy you can get out 0:15:26.036 --> 0:15:27.196 of that particular reaction. 0:15:28.476 --> 0:15:30.716 And just to be clear, this is relevant too, because 0:15:30.756 --> 0:15:33.596 your batteries when they're charging and discharging are sort of 0:15:33.676 --> 0:15:36.356 rusting and unrusting. Right, that is a version of what 0:15:36.436 --> 0:15:38.556 is happening. Yeah, that's exactly right. 0:15:38.796 --> 0:15:43.396 That's precisely what's happening. And what we have found is that, 0:15:43.516 --> 0:15:46.916 in fact, the theoretical limit is about thirty percent higher 0:15:46.916 --> 0:15:50.156 than what we originally thought it was. And I can't 0:15:50.156 --> 0:15:53.236 tell you why precisely because there's a lot of trade 0:15:53.236 --> 0:15:56.956 secret involved in this, but that's one learning that we had. 0:15:56.836 --> 0:15:58.796 That's like a basic science insight. 0:15:59.076 --> 0:16:01.316 This is not in the published literature anywhere. This is 0:16:01.356 --> 0:16:04.316 a true discovery by the team at form Energy. 0:16:04.596 --> 0:16:07.276 And tell me about deciding to go trade secret instead 0:16:07.276 --> 0:16:09.276 of patent. You wanted to try and keep it forever, 0:16:09.556 --> 0:16:11.636 why not patented and be sure you own it? 0:16:12.196 --> 0:16:15.516 Well, it's a combination of things. You know, our intellectual 0:16:16.596 --> 0:16:21.596 property approach. He utilizes different different methods depending on what 0:16:21.636 --> 0:16:21.876 it is. 0:16:22.156 --> 0:16:25.596 You figure trade cigarette work for Coca Cola, they work 0:16:25.636 --> 0:16:29.476 for it. Patent there formula years ago. Where would they 0:16:29.516 --> 0:16:35.556 be to day. We'll be back in just a minute. 0:16:46.076 --> 0:16:49.996 So you're actually talking to me today from forms factory 0:16:50.036 --> 0:16:53.036 in weird in West Virginia. Tell me about Tell me 0:16:53.036 --> 0:16:54.836 about the factory. Tell me about weird. 0:16:54.956 --> 0:16:58.396 So Weirden is where we're building this plant, and it's 0:16:58.516 --> 0:17:03.196 the home of what was weird And Steel and it 0:17:03.316 --> 0:17:06.436 was the dominant economic driver for this region in the 0:17:06.516 --> 0:17:09.876 northern what's called the Northern Panhandle of West Virginia. It's 0:17:09.916 --> 0:17:13.836 a stretch of West Virginia that sits between Ohio and Pennsylvania. 0:17:14.436 --> 0:17:18.356 And the plant was one of the most productive plants 0:17:19.116 --> 0:17:20.996 steel plants in the country for a very long time, 0:17:21.876 --> 0:17:24.196 employed about fourteen thousand people in The plant shut in 0:17:24.236 --> 0:17:27.756 the early two thousands, and so that's the site. Most 0:17:27.796 --> 0:17:29.796 of the plant is gone. There's only one remaining structure 0:17:29.836 --> 0:17:32.596 from that plant. But we are on that same historic 0:17:32.676 --> 0:17:35.436 site and it's a huge privilege to be able to 0:17:35.476 --> 0:17:38.996 build this plant here in where is. 0:17:38.956 --> 0:17:41.596 There a practical reason that you're on the site of 0:17:41.636 --> 0:17:43.876 a steel plant. I mean, is there is raw iron 0:17:43.956 --> 0:17:45.636 close by? Are the rail links good? 0:17:45.796 --> 0:17:48.676 Yeah, it's a phenomenal piece of physical infrastructure, is what 0:17:48.716 --> 0:17:50.836 it comes down to. And that's how most of the 0:17:50.916 --> 0:17:54.156 steel sites were picked originally in the country. You know, 0:17:54.236 --> 0:17:58.716 flat places near rivers with great connectivity to the economy essentially, 0:17:59.036 --> 0:18:01.716 and so that's exactly what this site is. So it's 0:18:01.756 --> 0:18:04.916 right on the Ohio River. There's barge access, which of 0:18:04.956 --> 0:18:09.076 course connects into the Mississippi. There's two rail lines, one 0:18:09.236 --> 0:18:11.916 one which comes directly into our site and another which 0:18:11.956 --> 0:18:16.276 is not very far away, and then phenomenal highway interconnectivity 0:18:16.276 --> 0:18:18.036 to the country as well. 0:18:18.116 --> 0:18:20.356 So you now you have a factory. You were at 0:18:20.356 --> 0:18:23.796 the factory, you're making batteries. You're building more factory so 0:18:23.916 --> 0:18:25.796 you can make more batteries. 0:18:25.636 --> 0:18:26.396 Batteries, that's right. 0:18:27.996 --> 0:18:30.196 What do you have to figure out next? Like what 0:18:30.276 --> 0:18:32.236 is sort of the frontier for you at this point? 0:18:33.076 --> 0:18:34.876 Well, at those point the things we have to figure 0:18:34.876 --> 0:18:39.596 out are the really the scaled manufacturing processes. There's not 0:18:39.716 --> 0:18:41.836 a lot more that we can do in the lab, 0:18:42.396 --> 0:18:46.236 even building sort of production intent size scale systems, which 0:18:46.236 --> 0:18:48.396 we do all the time, and we have to build 0:18:48.516 --> 0:18:53.676 those devices off of the real volume processes. So the 0:18:53.716 --> 0:18:57.676 equipment sets right, the operations right, That's where the risk 0:18:57.756 --> 0:19:00.116 remains in the company, and the only way to retire 0:19:00.156 --> 0:19:01.876 that risk is to take that step into do it. 0:19:01.956 --> 0:19:04.676 And so that's really where the focus is as a 0:19:04.716 --> 0:19:08.996 company is on that next phase to get into startup production, 0:19:09.596 --> 0:19:12.636 to produce those batteries, and to work through the challenges 0:19:12.636 --> 0:19:14.716 that inevitably pop up when you do something for the 0:19:14.716 --> 0:19:15.676 first time at that scale. 0:19:15.756 --> 0:19:18.316 So you can make a battery, the hard thing now 0:19:18.476 --> 0:19:21.356 is to make a thousand batteries or whatever. 0:19:21.956 --> 0:19:24.676 Yeah, at high quality and low cost and low cost. 0:19:25.036 --> 0:19:27.676 And so tell me, when you have like a full 0:19:27.756 --> 0:19:30.836 scale deployment, what'll it look like. 0:19:31.036 --> 0:19:34.236 Yeah, it'll look pretty boring, is the short answer. 0:19:34.796 --> 0:19:39.196 And ideally the operation will be super boring, right Well, yeah, yeah, 0:19:39.236 --> 0:19:42.196 paint drying in a field, that's that's what it literally 0:19:42.316 --> 0:19:44.916 iron rusting. It'll literally be iron resting in a field, 0:19:44.916 --> 0:19:45.156 you know. 0:19:45.196 --> 0:19:47.036 And unresting. We'll go both ways. 0:19:47.236 --> 0:19:47.876 That's the hard part. 0:19:48.156 --> 0:19:51.396 Yeah, these will because shipping containers, so forty foot containers 0:19:51.836 --> 0:19:54.836 installed in a field. In other words, it will look 0:19:54.916 --> 0:19:57.636 like pretty much any other battery that is installed for 0:19:57.876 --> 0:20:00.076 utilities today, and most people don't know what that looks like, 0:20:00.116 --> 0:20:03.396 but it is just shipping containers in salt on pads 0:20:04.196 --> 0:20:07.356 in a rays in a field. And so the size 0:20:07.356 --> 0:20:11.316 of these projects ranges from dozens of those enclosures to 0:20:11.876 --> 0:20:13.796 hundreds or even thousands in some cases. 0:20:14.676 --> 0:20:18.956 Your initial your initial projects are dozens, I imagine that's correct. 0:20:19.316 --> 0:20:23.116 So the first projects that we're doing are generally be 0:20:23.436 --> 0:20:26.556 around ten megawatts each, So that's what these utilities. They 0:20:26.636 --> 0:20:28.876 range from five to fifteen, but let's just say they're ten. 0:20:29.596 --> 0:20:32.516 And so at ten megawats one hundred hours, that's a 0:20:32.596 --> 0:20:37.316 thousand megawatt hours, right, And that puts these initial batteries 0:20:37.316 --> 0:20:39.116 that we're putting in the field, at least from an 0:20:39.236 --> 0:20:42.476 energy perspective, as some of the largest batteries ever deployed 0:20:42.756 --> 0:20:43.276 on the grid. 0:20:44.116 --> 0:20:47.276 So you talked about, you know, having to scale, right, 0:20:47.356 --> 0:20:51.156 having to figure out how to build thousands of batteries 0:20:52.316 --> 0:20:56.036 that are cheap and reliable. Is there like a particular 0:20:56.196 --> 0:20:58.556 piece of that that you're trying to figure out right now, 0:20:58.676 --> 0:21:02.196 or a particular piece of it that seems frankly daunting. 0:21:02.676 --> 0:21:05.836 So the category of challenges that we have in front 0:21:05.836 --> 0:21:10.316 of us are squarely in the engineering and specifically manufacturing 0:21:10.316 --> 0:21:15.596 engineering challenge. How can go wrong is inevitably things pop 0:21:15.676 --> 0:21:20.196 up when you're doing manufacturing at scale for the first time, 0:21:20.676 --> 0:21:24.476