1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,876 Speaker 1: Pushkin. America's power grid is arguably the largest machine ever 2 00:00:24,916 --> 00:00:28,276 Speaker 1: built in the history of the world. Thousands of power plants, 3 00:00:28,436 --> 00:00:31,996 Speaker 1: millions of miles of power lines, all delivering exactly as 4 00:00:32,076 --> 00:00:36,396 Speaker 1: much power as everybody wants, almost all of the time. Now, 5 00:00:36,756 --> 00:00:39,036 Speaker 1: in order to become more efficient and to move away 6 00:00:39,076 --> 00:00:43,556 Speaker 1: from fossil fuel, that machine has to be completely rebuilt. 7 00:00:44,116 --> 00:00:46,156 Speaker 1: The other day I talked to one of the people 8 00:00:46,316 --> 00:00:50,996 Speaker 1: who's rebuilding it. You're wearing a bright yellow vet, like 9 00:00:50,996 --> 00:00:53,596 Speaker 1: a neon yellow work vest, got a little American flag 10 00:00:53,636 --> 00:00:57,676 Speaker 1: in the corner. So where are you right now that 11 00:00:57,796 --> 00:00:58,996 Speaker 1: you need that vest? 12 00:00:59,676 --> 00:01:02,036 Speaker 2: Well, I'm in the factory and we're in West Virginia. 13 00:01:02,116 --> 00:01:04,476 Speaker 2: It's about five hundred thousand square feet under roof that 14 00:01:04,516 --> 00:01:08,636 Speaker 2: we have right now, and the activity under that roof 15 00:01:08,876 --> 00:01:12,276 Speaker 2: is everything from cell assembly. So we're operating that line 16 00:01:12,636 --> 00:01:14,236 Speaker 2: to finish in construction of the building. 17 00:01:14,876 --> 00:01:17,236 Speaker 1: So you're building batteries at the factory and you're also 18 00:01:17,276 --> 00:01:18,676 Speaker 1: building more factory at the. 19 00:01:18,636 --> 00:01:21,916 Speaker 2: Factory, exactly, yes, all simultaneously. 20 00:01:27,716 --> 00:01:30,156 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is what's your problem? The 21 00:01:30,196 --> 00:01:32,356 Speaker 1: show where I talk to people who are trying to 22 00:01:32,436 --> 00:01:37,436 Speaker 1: make technological progress. My guest today is Matteo Haemio. He's 23 00:01:37,476 --> 00:01:41,636 Speaker 1: the co founder and CEO of Form Energy. Matteo started 24 00:01:41,676 --> 00:01:45,156 Speaker 1: his company because he realized that in order to rebuild 25 00:01:45,196 --> 00:01:48,196 Speaker 1: the grid, in order to move off fossil fuels, the 26 00:01:48,236 --> 00:01:52,556 Speaker 1: world will very likely need batteries that are profoundly different 27 00:01:52,596 --> 00:01:56,836 Speaker 1: than the batteries we have now. Specifically, Matteo's problem is this, 28 00:01:57,836 --> 00:02:01,836 Speaker 1: how do you build batteries at scale that provide affordable 29 00:02:02,076 --> 00:02:06,996 Speaker 1: backup power to the grid, not for two hours, four hours, 30 00:02:07,076 --> 00:02:11,756 Speaker 1: or six hours, but for one one hundred hours. Matteo 31 00:02:11,836 --> 00:02:14,596 Speaker 1: has been working on batteries for about twenty years. He's 32 00:02:14,596 --> 00:02:16,916 Speaker 1: been doing it since before it was cool, and back 33 00:02:16,956 --> 00:02:19,236 Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine he went to work at Tesla. 34 00:02:22,116 --> 00:02:25,156 Speaker 2: So I went there specifically to put batteries on the grid, 35 00:02:25,196 --> 00:02:28,396 Speaker 2: to take that technology and the balance of system which 36 00:02:28,436 --> 00:02:31,836 Speaker 2: Tesla is excellent at, and take it out of the 37 00:02:31,836 --> 00:02:34,036 Speaker 2: car and put it on the grid. And JB. Strabo, 38 00:02:34,076 --> 00:02:36,796 Speaker 2: who is the CTO and my boss at Tesla while 39 00:02:36,796 --> 00:02:40,476 Speaker 2: I was there, shared that vision and you know, in 40 00:02:40,476 --> 00:02:42,996 Speaker 2: fact has always been a leader on this stuff, and 41 00:02:43,316 --> 00:02:44,636 Speaker 2: so he gave me the room to run to do 42 00:02:44,676 --> 00:02:47,836 Speaker 2: that internally in Tessa. 43 00:02:46,596 --> 00:02:50,876 Speaker 1: And so you basically started the Tesla powerwall business. 44 00:02:50,916 --> 00:02:53,516 Speaker 2: There is that, right, that's right, more than just the 45 00:02:53,516 --> 00:02:55,596 Speaker 2: power wall, so what we call the power pack and 46 00:02:55,636 --> 00:02:59,116 Speaker 2: subsequently megapac, but batteries on the grid, yes, exactly. 47 00:02:59,356 --> 00:03:03,436 Speaker 1: So what is the limit of lithium and batteries? I mean, 48 00:03:03,436 --> 00:03:06,516 Speaker 1: your company now is not a lithium ion battery company. 49 00:03:06,596 --> 00:03:09,556 Speaker 1: Is there sort of a moment when you realize that 50 00:03:09,596 --> 00:03:12,716 Speaker 1: lithium ion batteries are not going to solve all of 51 00:03:12,756 --> 00:03:16,196 Speaker 1: the problems that need to be solved to shift to 52 00:03:16,796 --> 00:03:18,276 Speaker 1: all renewable energy all the time. 53 00:03:18,996 --> 00:03:23,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, lithium mind batteries are a fantastic technology, but like 54 00:03:23,876 --> 00:03:27,836 Speaker 2: any battery technology, there is a compromise somewhere, and in 55 00:03:27,876 --> 00:03:30,876 Speaker 2: the case of lithium ion, it is cost. They are 56 00:03:30,916 --> 00:03:36,076 Speaker 2: phenomenally energy dense, they cycle wonderfully, they are produced at 57 00:03:36,116 --> 00:03:38,956 Speaker 2: massive scale, they're very they are in fact very safe, 58 00:03:39,516 --> 00:03:43,156 Speaker 2: but they cost a lot for the kinds of problems 59 00:03:43,196 --> 00:03:45,236 Speaker 2: that we also want to solve on the grid. Not 60 00:03:45,436 --> 00:03:50,596 Speaker 2: just single digit duration hours intermittency challenges, right the sun 61 00:03:50,676 --> 00:03:54,276 Speaker 2: going down and then coming back every morning, but multiple 62 00:03:54,356 --> 00:03:58,996 Speaker 2: days of duration or even seasonal imbalances, and that duration 63 00:03:59,156 --> 00:04:02,676 Speaker 2: of challenge. Lithium mind simply is not suited purely from 64 00:04:02,716 --> 00:04:06,156 Speaker 2: a cost perspective to address, And so that was the 65 00:04:06,236 --> 00:04:09,116 Speaker 2: challenge that I went after as soon as I left us. 66 00:04:08,796 --> 00:04:11,796 Speaker 1: So let's talk about Let's talk about duration, because that's 67 00:04:11,796 --> 00:04:15,116 Speaker 1: obviously central to what you're doing. How long are lithium 68 00:04:15,276 --> 00:04:20,116 Speaker 1: batteries sort of techno economically useful for like, presumably you 69 00:04:20,156 --> 00:04:21,836 Speaker 1: could just keep adding them and you could have as 70 00:04:21,916 --> 00:04:24,556 Speaker 1: much duration as you want with lithium ion batteries, but 71 00:04:24,596 --> 00:04:26,596 Speaker 1: it would be wildly expensive and nobody's ever going to 72 00:04:26,596 --> 00:04:29,796 Speaker 1: do it right. So for how long are they actually 73 00:04:29,996 --> 00:04:33,156 Speaker 1: economically efficient for energy storage on the grid. 74 00:04:34,156 --> 00:04:37,076 Speaker 2: Well, today, most of the lithium mind that's being put 75 00:04:37,076 --> 00:04:39,836 Speaker 2: on the grid is between two and four hour rated 76 00:04:39,876 --> 00:04:43,476 Speaker 2: power duration. So at its rated power, you start using 77 00:04:43,516 --> 00:04:45,876 Speaker 2: the battery and it's empty in two or four hours. 78 00:04:45,916 --> 00:04:49,116 Speaker 2: And what's been interesting is to see that duration evolve 79 00:04:49,276 --> 00:04:51,596 Speaker 2: over time. So when the first lithium batteries were put 80 00:04:51,596 --> 00:04:55,836 Speaker 2: on the grid, they were rated at fifteen minutes of duration, 81 00:04:56,516 --> 00:04:58,556 Speaker 2: and then it crept up to thirty minutes, and then 82 00:04:58,596 --> 00:05:01,356 Speaker 2: it's an hour, and you know, now it's two to 83 00:05:01,396 --> 00:05:02,036 Speaker 2: four hours. 84 00:05:01,836 --> 00:05:04,236 Speaker 1: And is that just a function of the batteries getting cheaper, 85 00:05:04,316 --> 00:05:05,076 Speaker 1: so you can. 86 00:05:06,036 --> 00:05:08,996 Speaker 2: In yeah, purely a function of cost, and so you 87 00:05:09,116 --> 00:05:12,756 Speaker 2: you can take that cost and duration pairing and see 88 00:05:12,756 --> 00:05:15,036 Speaker 2: where it's going to go. As certain costs, there's a 89 00:05:15,316 --> 00:05:20,036 Speaker 2: there's a duration that is directly implied as a result, 90 00:05:20,116 --> 00:05:22,756 Speaker 2: and so we know where the cost curve for lithium 91 00:05:22,756 --> 00:05:24,516 Speaker 2: mine is going, and therefore we know where the duration 92 00:05:24,836 --> 00:05:25,476 Speaker 2: is also going. 93 00:05:25,716 --> 00:05:28,716 Speaker 1: So let's talk about that two to four hour duration 94 00:05:28,796 --> 00:05:31,596 Speaker 1: that lithium ion batteries are at. Now, Like that seems 95 00:05:31,756 --> 00:05:35,716 Speaker 1: very useful in the context of like those moments when 96 00:05:35,756 --> 00:05:37,556 Speaker 1: it's a hot day and everybody gets home from work 97 00:05:37,596 --> 00:05:40,476 Speaker 1: and turns up the air conditioner, and you know, traditionally 98 00:05:40,516 --> 00:05:43,556 Speaker 1: we're now still in many places utilities have to turn 99 00:05:43,556 --> 00:05:48,196 Speaker 1: on these very inefficient gas powered peaker plants, right, and 100 00:05:48,236 --> 00:05:52,036 Speaker 1: if we can use lithium ion batteries to solve that, 101 00:05:52,116 --> 00:05:55,076 Speaker 1: to prevent that from happening, like, that's great, right, Like 102 00:05:55,116 --> 00:05:57,756 Speaker 1: that is a very useful step in the evolution away 103 00:05:57,876 --> 00:06:04,476 Speaker 1: from fossil fuel. Precise why is that insufficient? Like, what's 104 00:06:04,516 --> 00:06:06,036 Speaker 1: the next thing that we need that. 105 00:06:05,996 --> 00:06:08,756 Speaker 2: We don't have, Well, the next thing that we don't 106 00:06:08,756 --> 00:06:11,196 Speaker 2: have is what happens if you have one day that's 107 00:06:11,276 --> 00:06:13,316 Speaker 2: like that, and then the next day that's like that, 108 00:06:13,436 --> 00:06:15,516 Speaker 2: and the next day that's like that. You know, stressing 109 00:06:15,516 --> 00:06:17,756 Speaker 2: the peak multiple days in a row. And it could 110 00:06:17,796 --> 00:06:20,156 Speaker 2: be a stress that comes from heat, or it could 111 00:06:20,196 --> 00:06:22,716 Speaker 2: be a stress that comes from cold, or could be 112 00:06:22,716 --> 00:06:26,916 Speaker 2: a stress that comes from cloud cover storms. Right, because 113 00:06:27,036 --> 00:06:29,316 Speaker 2: you know, one premise, of course, of the four hour 114 00:06:29,396 --> 00:06:31,396 Speaker 2: battery is that you can recharge it when you need to, 115 00:06:31,916 --> 00:06:34,356 Speaker 2: And all of a sudden, if you're in a weather 116 00:06:34,396 --> 00:06:38,516 Speaker 2: event where recharging is highly uneconomic or it's not even possible, 117 00:06:39,076 --> 00:06:43,276 Speaker 2: then then different solutions are needed, and different durations are 118 00:06:43,316 --> 00:06:47,076 Speaker 2: also needed. So how do you ride through entirely these 119 00:06:47,156 --> 00:06:50,516 Speaker 2: multi day duration weather events which we see in every 120 00:06:50,596 --> 00:06:53,116 Speaker 2: market around the world. 121 00:06:52,676 --> 00:06:57,476 Speaker 1: So if we're at like four hours, there's any number 122 00:06:57,636 --> 00:07:00,396 Speaker 1: of sort of hours, there's any amount of duration that 123 00:07:00,436 --> 00:07:02,876 Speaker 1: you could kind of try and tackle next, right, it 124 00:07:02,876 --> 00:07:05,196 Speaker 1: could be twelve or it could be twenty four. Now, 125 00:07:05,276 --> 00:07:06,996 Speaker 1: but you end up going all the way to one 126 00:07:07,036 --> 00:07:09,796 Speaker 1: hundred or one hundred ish, which I assume you didn't 127 00:07:09,796 --> 00:07:12,596 Speaker 1: pick just because it's a satisfying round number, although it 128 00:07:12,636 --> 00:07:16,196 Speaker 1: is a satisfying round number, Like why why do you 129 00:07:16,276 --> 00:07:18,316 Speaker 1: decide to go all the way from four to one hundred. 130 00:07:20,436 --> 00:07:23,476 Speaker 2: It's a great question before in fact, we even started 131 00:07:23,476 --> 00:07:25,356 Speaker 2: the company, and the question was, well, how do you 132 00:07:25,436 --> 00:07:28,076 Speaker 2: solve the seasonal challenge? Right, that sort of winter to 133 00:07:28,116 --> 00:07:33,156 Speaker 2: summer challenge for energy storage? And it's you can sort 134 00:07:33,196 --> 00:07:35,156 Speaker 2: of have a gut sense for it. Well, but it 135 00:07:35,156 --> 00:07:37,756 Speaker 2: covers a very wide range. Do we need ten hours? 136 00:07:37,796 --> 00:07:39,836 Speaker 2: Do we need two thousand hours? So how do we 137 00:07:39,876 --> 00:07:41,876 Speaker 2: win of that down? And well, this is how we 138 00:07:41,956 --> 00:07:45,436 Speaker 2: framed it up. What duration energy storage do you need 139 00:07:45,476 --> 00:07:48,916 Speaker 2: to solve those problems? And then what is implied about 140 00:07:48,916 --> 00:07:50,876 Speaker 2: the cost for that and can you build something that 141 00:07:50,956 --> 00:07:53,556 Speaker 2: actually hits that cost target? And so the one hundred 142 00:07:53,636 --> 00:07:57,796 Speaker 2: hours falls out of that very deep technical exercise. If 143 00:07:57,836 --> 00:08:00,836 Speaker 2: we say to take the state my home state of California, 144 00:08:00,876 --> 00:08:04,116 Speaker 2: for example, one percent of the carbon emissions on the 145 00:08:04,156 --> 00:08:06,196 Speaker 2: electric grid comes from natural gas. There is no more 146 00:08:06,196 --> 00:08:08,516 Speaker 2: coal in state of California, and if you look at 147 00:08:08,596 --> 00:08:13,236 Speaker 2: the way that the natural gas fleet participates in that system, 148 00:08:13,476 --> 00:08:15,436 Speaker 2: if we want to be able to drive to a 149 00:08:15,436 --> 00:08:20,356 Speaker 2: deeper decarbonization for that particular grid, which California does legislatively, 150 00:08:20,356 --> 00:08:24,556 Speaker 2: it's bound to, then we have to functionally replace at 151 00:08:24,676 --> 00:08:28,916 Speaker 2: least some of those natural gas plants. And when we 152 00:08:28,956 --> 00:08:33,396 Speaker 2: look at what the battery needs to do technically, it 153 00:08:33,516 --> 00:08:36,196 Speaker 2: needs to be able to provide that at least four 154 00:08:36,236 --> 00:08:39,676 Speaker 2: day duration range. So just functionally, that's what it has 155 00:08:39,716 --> 00:08:41,676 Speaker 2: to do. It's got to cover those cloudy you know, 156 00:08:41,676 --> 00:08:43,716 Speaker 2: three or four days in a row when the solar 157 00:08:43,796 --> 00:08:45,276 Speaker 2: is not really contributing to the system. 158 00:08:45,316 --> 00:08:47,196 Speaker 1: And so in the case of California, you have the 159 00:08:47,316 --> 00:08:50,836 Speaker 1: law on your side exactly. It's like, well, these utilities 160 00:08:50,836 --> 00:08:53,876 Speaker 1: are going to have to buy something, so let's figure 161 00:08:53,876 --> 00:08:55,436 Speaker 1: out how to be the ones to sell it to them. 162 00:08:55,476 --> 00:08:57,436 Speaker 1: And in particular, what they're going to need to buy 163 00:08:57,716 --> 00:09:01,876 Speaker 1: is order of magnitude days, not hours, not weeks of 164 00:09:01,996 --> 00:09:03,236 Speaker 1: energy storage. 165 00:09:02,996 --> 00:09:05,676 Speaker 2: That's right, And if you need those days, then the 166 00:09:05,716 --> 00:09:07,676 Speaker 2: cost falls out of that and you have to be 167 00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:10,356 Speaker 2: somewhere around twenty dollars per kilo whatt hour again one 168 00:09:10,476 --> 00:09:14,116 Speaker 2: tenth maybe the future cost of lithium ion. That's where 169 00:09:14,156 --> 00:09:17,996 Speaker 2: we started, and so that's where the pairing of one 170 00:09:18,036 --> 00:09:20,996 Speaker 2: hundred hours and roughly twenty dollars per kilo era comes in. 171 00:09:21,396 --> 00:09:23,356 Speaker 2: It all falls out of the modeling that is done 172 00:09:23,396 --> 00:09:27,956 Speaker 2: to really understand the electric system and how it operates 173 00:09:27,996 --> 00:09:28,996 Speaker 2: as a portfolio. 174 00:09:29,316 --> 00:09:32,356 Speaker 1: So now you have this frame and you've got to 175 00:09:32,356 --> 00:09:36,596 Speaker 1: figure out how to build a battery that has a 176 00:09:36,676 --> 00:09:40,356 Speaker 1: sufficient duration at a low enough cost. And there's a 177 00:09:40,396 --> 00:09:43,316 Speaker 1: lot of options, right, there's a lot of like weird 178 00:09:43,516 --> 00:09:45,876 Speaker 1: fun things people are trying to do the thing you're 179 00:09:45,876 --> 00:09:47,636 Speaker 1: trying to do, Right, So how do you get to 180 00:09:48,756 --> 00:09:49,476 Speaker 1: where you get to? 181 00:09:50,636 --> 00:09:54,716 Speaker 2: Well, we started doing a bakeoff. Essentially, we didn't we 182 00:09:54,716 --> 00:09:57,756 Speaker 2: didn't pick the technology. We knew that design space we 183 00:09:57,796 --> 00:09:59,756 Speaker 2: had to operate inside of, and that was that one 184 00:09:59,836 --> 00:10:03,676 Speaker 2: hundred hour twenty dollars per killer hour range. And we 185 00:10:03,756 --> 00:10:07,636 Speaker 2: had a couple contending chemistries that we liked. One was 186 00:10:07,676 --> 00:10:11,036 Speaker 2: sulfur based, the other was iron based. We had some 187 00:10:11,076 --> 00:10:14,076 Speaker 2: other ideas as well, but when we first founded the 188 00:10:14,076 --> 00:10:18,196 Speaker 2: company and took investment, our promise for that to those investors, 189 00:10:18,196 --> 00:10:20,316 Speaker 2: for the very first round of funding was we will 190 00:10:20,396 --> 00:10:23,116 Speaker 2: identify the most promising chemistry, not that we were going 191 00:10:23,156 --> 00:10:24,956 Speaker 2: to solve it or that we could prove that we 192 00:10:24,996 --> 00:10:25,556 Speaker 2: had a market. 193 00:10:25,596 --> 00:10:27,916 Speaker 1: So people are giving you money to build batteries and 194 00:10:27,956 --> 00:10:29,756 Speaker 1: you didn't even know what the batteries were going to 195 00:10:29,796 --> 00:10:31,276 Speaker 1: be exactly. 196 00:10:31,676 --> 00:10:35,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, but to be clear, that's because the opportunity is 197 00:10:36,876 --> 00:10:40,196 Speaker 2: overwhelmingly compelling. Right, this is a trillion dollar market if 198 00:10:40,236 --> 00:10:42,876 Speaker 2: you can get it right, and so that's why it 199 00:10:42,916 --> 00:10:46,396 Speaker 2: was worth it to even pursue this experiment from the beginning. 200 00:10:46,396 --> 00:10:49,876 Speaker 2: And so we had a couple of different technologies that 201 00:10:49,916 --> 00:10:52,796 Speaker 2: we evaluated, and at the end of the first year, 202 00:10:52,996 --> 00:10:55,516 Speaker 2: it was clear that iron air was the one that 203 00:10:55,556 --> 00:10:59,716 Speaker 2: had the greatest chance to succeed. The entitled costs was there, 204 00:10:59,796 --> 00:11:02,516 Speaker 2: the entitled embodiment of that cost as a real device 205 00:11:02,636 --> 00:11:06,676 Speaker 2: was there, and the performance was there. And so that's 206 00:11:06,716 --> 00:11:08,116 Speaker 2: the one that we picked, and that's the one that 207 00:11:08,116 --> 00:11:10,316 Speaker 2: we said, this is what we're going to really devote 208 00:11:10,316 --> 00:11:11,236 Speaker 2: our company towards. 209 00:11:11,556 --> 00:11:13,796 Speaker 1: Tell me about iron, Like, why do you land on iron? 210 00:11:15,196 --> 00:11:19,396 Speaker 2: Well? Iron, Besides, coal's the most mind substance on Earth, 211 00:11:19,596 --> 00:11:21,596 Speaker 2: a few billion tons of it every year. 212 00:11:22,196 --> 00:11:24,516 Speaker 1: Not scarce. One country is not going to lock down 213 00:11:24,676 --> 00:11:26,516 Speaker 1: iron reserves for the planet. 214 00:11:26,796 --> 00:11:29,036 Speaker 2: Definitely not. And you know, if you squint, it's not 215 00:11:29,076 --> 00:11:31,396 Speaker 2: too hard to envision the Earth is just a rusty 216 00:11:31,436 --> 00:11:33,236 Speaker 2: ball basically. 217 00:11:33,916 --> 00:11:37,156 Speaker 1: Feels about right too, like vibes wise rusty balls. 218 00:11:36,916 --> 00:11:41,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly, And so you're never going to run 219 00:11:41,476 --> 00:11:44,196 Speaker 2: out of it, of course, and you know, humans know 220 00:11:44,276 --> 00:11:46,796 Speaker 2: a lot about iron. Frankly, there was a whole age 221 00:11:46,996 --> 00:11:51,036 Speaker 2: of humanity that where we really played around it. 222 00:11:51,036 --> 00:11:54,836 Speaker 1: It's like, well, stone not great as a battery, Bronze 223 00:11:54,876 --> 00:12:00,516 Speaker 1: too expensive, Wait a minute. 224 00:11:58,916 --> 00:12:02,596 Speaker 2: And so we like the idea that there is a 225 00:12:02,636 --> 00:12:05,396 Speaker 2: substance that that a lot is known about but had 226 00:12:05,396 --> 00:12:09,596 Speaker 2: never really been brought into the modern understanding. Electric and 227 00:12:10,956 --> 00:12:14,116 Speaker 2: other iron batteries are out there. So, for example, Thomas Edison, 228 00:12:14,156 --> 00:12:16,436 Speaker 2: the battery that he went to market with is a 229 00:12:16,516 --> 00:12:20,116 Speaker 2: nickel iron battery using an iron anode, and that was 230 00:12:20,396 --> 00:12:23,116 Speaker 2: over one hundred years ago now, and so a lot 231 00:12:23,196 --> 00:12:25,876 Speaker 2: is known relatively speaking about iron anuts, but it's not 232 00:12:25,956 --> 00:12:29,596 Speaker 2: an art that has been really advanced recently. And so 233 00:12:30,076 --> 00:12:33,756 Speaker 2: where we started from was the best understanding that was 234 00:12:33,796 --> 00:12:36,116 Speaker 2: out there about iron air, which actually comes from the 235 00:12:36,196 --> 00:12:38,476 Speaker 2: nineteen seventies roughly. There was some work that was done 236 00:12:38,516 --> 00:12:41,956 Speaker 2: recently at of one academic labit, but not too much. 237 00:12:42,036 --> 00:12:47,756 Speaker 2: And we saw that the performance metrics that Westinghouse was 238 00:12:47,796 --> 00:12:49,516 Speaker 2: able to get at a study that they did at 239 00:12:49,516 --> 00:12:52,756 Speaker 2: the behest of the US Department of Energy, that if 240 00:12:52,756 --> 00:12:55,716 Speaker 2: we could achieve what they had done fifty years ago. 241 00:12:56,516 --> 00:12:58,436 Speaker 2: Then we had a minimum of a viable product, and 242 00:12:58,476 --> 00:13:00,396 Speaker 2: we thought, we think we could probably do that. 243 00:13:02,556 --> 00:13:05,116 Speaker 1: I mean, it's the basic idea, like iron is cheap 244 00:13:05,276 --> 00:13:09,716 Speaker 1: and big and heavy and not that energy dense. Of course, 245 00:13:09,716 --> 00:13:11,796 Speaker 1: nobody's gonna use it for a laptop or a car. 246 00:13:11,836 --> 00:13:13,756 Speaker 1: It's like the opposite of what you want for a 247 00:13:13,796 --> 00:13:16,356 Speaker 1: laptop or a car. But like you don't actually care 248 00:13:16,476 --> 00:13:19,196 Speaker 1: in this instance if it's big and heavy, because you're 249 00:13:19,236 --> 00:13:22,796 Speaker 1: just gonna put it out whatever in the desert anyways, 250 00:13:22,836 --> 00:13:25,156 Speaker 1: where there's a ton of space exactly. 251 00:13:25,436 --> 00:13:29,236 Speaker 2: And again, the overriding consideration here for the selection of 252 00:13:29,236 --> 00:13:33,196 Speaker 2: a chemistry to pursue is cost, and specifically capex cost, 253 00:13:33,596 --> 00:13:37,156 Speaker 2: and back to your earlier question, the things that we 254 00:13:37,196 --> 00:13:39,116 Speaker 2: can trade off as a result. I'll give you one 255 00:13:39,116 --> 00:13:40,316 Speaker 2: example cycle life. 256 00:13:40,476 --> 00:13:41,236 Speaker 1: You know with you my. 257 00:13:41,396 --> 00:13:43,756 Speaker 2: Batteries cycle phenomenally well thousands of times. 258 00:13:43,836 --> 00:13:46,316 Speaker 1: Cycle life meaning charge and discharge and charge. 259 00:13:46,156 --> 00:13:46,996 Speaker 2: Charge and discharge. 260 00:13:47,036 --> 00:13:47,516 Speaker 1: That's right. 261 00:13:48,276 --> 00:13:50,716 Speaker 2: But to give you an example for the way that 262 00:13:50,916 --> 00:13:53,156 Speaker 2: technically we can think about a trade off in pursuit 263 00:13:53,156 --> 00:13:55,436 Speaker 2: a very low cost. If I am building a battery 264 00:13:55,476 --> 00:13:57,356 Speaker 2: that let's just say, discharges over the course of a 265 00:13:57,396 --> 00:14:00,076 Speaker 2: week to make this easy and charges over the course 266 00:14:00,116 --> 00:14:04,996 Speaker 2: of a week of efficiency. Then the maximum number number 267 00:14:05,036 --> 00:14:07,356 Speaker 2: of cycles I can get in the year is twenty six, right, 268 00:14:07,476 --> 00:14:10,356 Speaker 2: theoretical maximum, and over the course of a twenty year 269 00:14:10,396 --> 00:14:13,596 Speaker 2: project life, it's roughly five hundred, a far cry from 270 00:14:13,636 --> 00:14:16,036 Speaker 2: the thousands and thousands of cycles that lithium mine is 271 00:14:16,076 --> 00:14:18,996 Speaker 2: pursuing because it needs, right, I have to be very 272 00:14:18,996 --> 00:14:21,476 Speaker 2: good at charging and discharging hundreds of times, but that 273 00:14:21,556 --> 00:14:24,916 Speaker 2: is a materially different challenge than thousands of times. Right. 274 00:14:25,796 --> 00:14:31,876 Speaker 1: So you're close now to having real working batteries out 275 00:14:31,916 --> 00:14:35,356 Speaker 1: in the world. You've been working on it for years. 276 00:14:36,836 --> 00:14:39,516 Speaker 1: Is there an example of a thing that you figured 277 00:14:39,556 --> 00:14:41,636 Speaker 1: out between when you started and now? 278 00:14:41,836 --> 00:14:44,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, to be clear, we have working batteries out 279 00:14:44,316 --> 00:14:46,676 Speaker 2: there in the grid right now. So we deployed our 280 00:14:46,676 --> 00:14:49,836 Speaker 2: first battery connected to the grid charging and discharging about 281 00:14:49,836 --> 00:14:51,716 Speaker 2: a year ago. So it was in summer of last 282 00:14:51,756 --> 00:14:53,516 Speaker 2: year that our first one went out in the world 283 00:14:54,476 --> 00:14:56,676 Speaker 2: and we learned a lot from that. But as far 284 00:14:56,716 --> 00:15:02,396 Speaker 2: as a learning that we had along the way, it's 285 00:15:02,396 --> 00:15:07,596 Speaker 2: about iron. Maybe not surprisingly. You know, iron reacts to 286 00:15:07,756 --> 00:15:11,596 Speaker 2: different levels, so you have different states of oxidation for 287 00:15:11,876 --> 00:15:12,556 Speaker 2: iron right, So. 288 00:15:12,596 --> 00:15:15,556 Speaker 1: Basically rust in the case. That's right, that's right, that's right. 289 00:15:15,716 --> 00:15:18,836 Speaker 2: And the first reaction is iron to iron hydroxide, so 290 00:15:18,876 --> 00:15:23,836 Speaker 2: you have FH right, one hydroxide, and there's a theoretical 291 00:15:23,836 --> 00:15:25,956 Speaker 2: limit to the amount of energy you can get out 292 00:15:26,036 --> 00:15:27,196 Speaker 2: of that particular reaction. 293 00:15:28,476 --> 00:15:30,716 Speaker 1: And just to be clear, this is relevant too, because 294 00:15:30,756 --> 00:15:33,596 Speaker 1: your batteries when they're charging and discharging are sort of 295 00:15:33,676 --> 00:15:36,356 Speaker 1: rusting and unrusting. Right, that is a version of what 296 00:15:36,436 --> 00:15:38,556 Speaker 1: is happening. Yeah, that's exactly right. 297 00:15:38,796 --> 00:15:43,396 Speaker 2: That's precisely what's happening. And what we have found is that, 298 00:15:43,516 --> 00:15:46,916 Speaker 2: in fact, the theoretical limit is about thirty percent higher 299 00:15:46,916 --> 00:15:50,156 Speaker 2: than what we originally thought it was. And I can't 300 00:15:50,156 --> 00:15:53,236 Speaker 2: tell you why precisely because there's a lot of trade 301 00:15:53,236 --> 00:15:56,956 Speaker 2: secret involved in this, but that's one learning that we had. 302 00:15:56,836 --> 00:15:58,796 Speaker 1: That's like a basic science insight. 303 00:15:59,076 --> 00:16:01,316 Speaker 2: This is not in the published literature anywhere. This is 304 00:16:01,356 --> 00:16:04,316 Speaker 2: a true discovery by the team at form Energy. 305 00:16:04,596 --> 00:16:07,276 Speaker 1: And tell me about deciding to go trade secret instead 306 00:16:07,276 --> 00:16:09,276 Speaker 1: of patent. You wanted to try and keep it forever, 307 00:16:09,556 --> 00:16:11,636 Speaker 1: why not patented and be sure you own it? 308 00:16:12,196 --> 00:16:15,516 Speaker 2: Well, it's a combination of things. You know, our intellectual 309 00:16:16,596 --> 00:16:21,596 Speaker 2: property approach. He utilizes different different methods depending on what 310 00:16:21,636 --> 00:16:21,876 Speaker 2: it is. 311 00:16:22,156 --> 00:16:25,596 Speaker 1: You figure trade cigarette work for Coca Cola, they work 312 00:16:25,636 --> 00:16:29,476 Speaker 1: for it. Patent there formula years ago. Where would they 313 00:16:29,516 --> 00:16:35,556 Speaker 1: be to day. We'll be back in just a minute. 314 00:16:46,076 --> 00:16:49,996 Speaker 1: So you're actually talking to me today from forms factory 315 00:16:50,036 --> 00:16:53,036 Speaker 1: in weird in West Virginia. Tell me about Tell me 316 00:16:53,036 --> 00:16:54,836 Speaker 1: about the factory. Tell me about weird. 317 00:16:54,956 --> 00:16:58,396 Speaker 2: So Weirden is where we're building this plant, and it's 318 00:16:58,516 --> 00:17:03,196 Speaker 2: the home of what was weird And Steel and it 319 00:17:03,316 --> 00:17:06,436 Speaker 2: was the dominant economic driver for this region in the 320 00:17:06,516 --> 00:17:09,876 Speaker 2: northern what's called the Northern Panhandle of West Virginia. It's 321 00:17:09,916 --> 00:17:13,836 Speaker 2: a stretch of West Virginia that sits between Ohio and Pennsylvania. 322 00:17:14,436 --> 00:17:18,356 Speaker 2: And the plant was one of the most productive plants 323 00:17:19,116 --> 00:17:20,996 Speaker 2: steel plants in the country for a very long time, 324 00:17:21,876 --> 00:17:24,196 Speaker 2: employed about fourteen thousand people in The plant shut in 325 00:17:24,236 --> 00:17:27,756 Speaker 2: the early two thousands, and so that's the site. Most 326 00:17:27,796 --> 00:17:29,796 Speaker 2: of the plant is gone. There's only one remaining structure 327 00:17:29,836 --> 00:17:32,596 Speaker 2: from that plant. But we are on that same historic 328 00:17:32,676 --> 00:17:35,436 Speaker 2: site and it's a huge privilege to be able to 329 00:17:35,476 --> 00:17:38,996 Speaker 2: build this plant here in where is. 330 00:17:38,956 --> 00:17:41,596 Speaker 1: There a practical reason that you're on the site of 331 00:17:41,636 --> 00:17:43,876 Speaker 1: a steel plant. I mean, is there is raw iron 332 00:17:43,956 --> 00:17:45,636 Speaker 1: close by? Are the rail links good? 333 00:17:45,796 --> 00:17:48,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a phenomenal piece of physical infrastructure, is what 334 00:17:48,716 --> 00:17:50,836 Speaker 2: it comes down to. And that's how most of the 335 00:17:50,916 --> 00:17:54,156 Speaker 2: steel sites were picked originally in the country. You know, 336 00:17:54,236 --> 00:17:58,716 Speaker 2: flat places near rivers with great connectivity to the economy essentially, 337 00:17:59,036 --> 00:18:01,716 Speaker 2: and so that's exactly what this site is. So it's 338 00:18:01,756 --> 00:18:04,916 Speaker 2: right on the Ohio River. There's barge access, which of 339 00:18:04,956 --> 00:18:09,076 Speaker 2: course connects into the Mississippi. There's two rail lines, one 340 00:18:09,236 --> 00:18:11,916 Speaker 2: one which comes directly into our site and another which 341 00:18:11,956 --> 00:18:16,276 Speaker 2: is not very far away, and then phenomenal highway interconnectivity 342 00:18:16,276 --> 00:18:18,036 Speaker 2: to the country as well. 343 00:18:18,116 --> 00:18:20,356 Speaker 1: So you now you have a factory. You were at 344 00:18:20,356 --> 00:18:23,796 Speaker 1: the factory, you're making batteries. You're building more factory so 345 00:18:23,916 --> 00:18:25,796 Speaker 1: you can make more batteries. 346 00:18:25,636 --> 00:18:26,396 Speaker 2: Batteries, that's right. 347 00:18:27,996 --> 00:18:30,196 Speaker 1: What do you have to figure out next? Like what 348 00:18:30,276 --> 00:18:32,236 Speaker 1: is sort of the frontier for you at this point? 349 00:18:33,076 --> 00:18:34,876 Speaker 2: Well, at those point the things we have to figure 350 00:18:34,876 --> 00:18:39,596 Speaker 2: out are the really the scaled manufacturing processes. There's not 351 00:18:39,716 --> 00:18:41,836 Speaker 2: a lot more that we can do in the lab, 352 00:18:42,396 --> 00:18:46,236 Speaker 2: even building sort of production intent size scale systems, which 353 00:18:46,236 --> 00:18:48,396 Speaker 2: we do all the time, and we have to build 354 00:18:48,516 --> 00:18:53,676 Speaker 2: those devices off of the real volume processes. So the 355 00:18:53,716 --> 00:18:57,676 Speaker 2: equipment sets right, the operations right, That's where the risk 356 00:18:57,756 --> 00:19:00,116 Speaker 2: remains in the company, and the only way to retire 357 00:19:00,156 --> 00:19:01,876 Speaker 2: that risk is to take that step into do it. 358 00:19:01,956 --> 00:19:04,676 Speaker 2: And so that's really where the focus is as a 359 00:19:04,716 --> 00:19:08,996 Speaker 2: company is on that next phase to get into startup production, 360 00:19:09,596 --> 00:19:12,636 Speaker 2: to produce those batteries, and to work through the challenges 361 00:19:12,636 --> 00:19:14,716 Speaker 2: that inevitably pop up when you do something for the 362 00:19:14,716 --> 00:19:15,676 Speaker 2: first time at that scale. 363 00:19:15,756 --> 00:19:18,316 Speaker 1: So you can make a battery, the hard thing now 364 00:19:18,476 --> 00:19:21,356 Speaker 1: is to make a thousand batteries or whatever. 365 00:19:21,956 --> 00:19:24,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, at high quality and low cost and low cost. 366 00:19:25,036 --> 00:19:27,676 Speaker 1: And so tell me, when you have like a full 367 00:19:27,756 --> 00:19:30,836 Speaker 1: scale deployment, what'll it look like. 368 00:19:31,036 --> 00:19:34,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, it'll look pretty boring, is the short answer. 369 00:19:34,796 --> 00:19:39,196 Speaker 1: And ideally the operation will be super boring, right Well, yeah, yeah, 370 00:19:39,236 --> 00:19:42,196 Speaker 1: paint drying in a field, that's that's what it literally 371 00:19:42,316 --> 00:19:44,916 Speaker 1: iron rusting. It'll literally be iron resting in a field, 372 00:19:44,916 --> 00:19:45,156 Speaker 1: you know. 373 00:19:45,196 --> 00:19:47,036 Speaker 2: And unresting. We'll go both ways. 374 00:19:47,236 --> 00:19:47,876 Speaker 1: That's the hard part. 375 00:19:48,156 --> 00:19:51,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, these will because shipping containers, so forty foot containers 376 00:19:51,836 --> 00:19:54,836 Speaker 2: installed in a field. In other words, it will look 377 00:19:54,916 --> 00:19:57,636 Speaker 2: like pretty much any other battery that is installed for 378 00:19:57,876 --> 00:20:00,076 Speaker 2: utilities today, and most people don't know what that looks like, 379 00:20:00,116 --> 00:20:03,396 Speaker 2: but it is just shipping containers in salt on pads 380 00:20:04,196 --> 00:20:07,356 Speaker 2: in a rays in a field. And so the size 381 00:20:07,356 --> 00:20:11,316 Speaker 2: of these projects ranges from dozens of those enclosures to 382 00:20:11,876 --> 00:20:13,796 Speaker 2: hundreds or even thousands in some cases. 383 00:20:14,676 --> 00:20:18,956 Speaker 1: Your initial your initial projects are dozens, I imagine that's correct. 384 00:20:19,316 --> 00:20:23,116 Speaker 2: So the first projects that we're doing are generally be 385 00:20:23,436 --> 00:20:26,556 Speaker 2: around ten megawatts each, So that's what these utilities. They 386 00:20:26,636 --> 00:20:28,876 Speaker 2: range from five to fifteen, but let's just say they're ten. 387 00:20:29,596 --> 00:20:32,516 Speaker 2: And so at ten megawats one hundred hours, that's a 388 00:20:32,596 --> 00:20:37,316 Speaker 2: thousand megawatt hours, right, And that puts these initial batteries 389 00:20:37,316 --> 00:20:39,116 Speaker 2: that we're putting in the field, at least from an 390 00:20:39,236 --> 00:20:42,476 Speaker 2: energy perspective, as some of the largest batteries ever deployed 391 00:20:42,756 --> 00:20:43,276 Speaker 2: on the grid. 392 00:20:44,116 --> 00:20:47,276 Speaker 1: So you talked about, you know, having to scale, right, 393 00:20:47,356 --> 00:20:51,156 Speaker 1: having to figure out how to build thousands of batteries 394 00:20:52,316 --> 00:20:56,036 Speaker 1: that are cheap and reliable. Is there like a particular 395 00:20:56,196 --> 00:20:58,556 Speaker 1: piece of that that you're trying to figure out right now, 396 00:20:58,676 --> 00:21:02,196 Speaker 1: or a particular piece of it that seems frankly daunting. 397 00:21:02,676 --> 00:21:05,836 Speaker 2: So the category of challenges that we have in front 398 00:21:05,836 --> 00:21:10,316 Speaker 2: of us are squarely in the engineering and specifically manufacturing 399 00:21:10,316 --> 00:21:15,596 Speaker 2: engineering challenge. How can go wrong is inevitably things pop 400 00:21:15,676 --> 00:21:20,196 Speaker 2: up when you're doing manufacturing at scale for the first time, 401 00:21:20,676 --> 00:21:24,476 Speaker 2: and so generally these are challenges that involve sort of 402 00:21:24,596 --> 00:21:27,476 Speaker 2: days to weeks of challenge that you need to solve, 403 00:21:27,556 --> 00:21:29,916 Speaker 2: but you can inevitably solve them with a good team 404 00:21:29,916 --> 00:21:32,236 Speaker 2: who knows what it's doing, and so that's what we've built. 405 00:21:32,436 --> 00:21:35,356 Speaker 2: I think the biggest risk for us now, frankly is 406 00:21:35,436 --> 00:21:38,236 Speaker 2: hiring to fully build out that team to be able 407 00:21:38,276 --> 00:21:41,276 Speaker 2: to do that on time and the way that we 408 00:21:41,316 --> 00:21:43,836 Speaker 2: need to. But I'm not worried at all about whether 409 00:21:43,956 --> 00:21:46,396 Speaker 2: there's some technical challenge that will pop up that we 410 00:21:47,516 --> 00:21:51,236 Speaker 2: cannot solve. We are through that phase of what's needed 411 00:21:51,276 --> 00:21:54,276 Speaker 2: and it truly is an execution play from here. There's 412 00:21:54,276 --> 00:21:57,836 Speaker 2: no magic pixie dust required. We don't need to say 413 00:21:57,836 --> 00:22:01,396 Speaker 2: any prayers over a piece of technology to hope that 414 00:22:01,436 --> 00:22:03,436 Speaker 2: it works. We know that it works, and we know 415 00:22:03,476 --> 00:22:05,396 Speaker 2: that it works at the scale, but we need to 416 00:22:05,436 --> 00:22:08,036 Speaker 2: go do it, and so that's the main challenge. 417 00:22:08,236 --> 00:22:12,516 Speaker 1: And then in the media term, I mean other people 418 00:22:12,716 --> 00:22:16,636 Speaker 1: are working on other kinds of batteries, other kinds of 419 00:22:16,916 --> 00:22:21,236 Speaker 1: energy storage, of long duration energy storage, I mean, tell 420 00:22:21,236 --> 00:22:23,836 Speaker 1: me about that sort of competitive landscape, like, what are 421 00:22:23,836 --> 00:22:28,036 Speaker 1: the other technologies that you think are compelling in kind 422 00:22:28,036 --> 00:22:28,916 Speaker 1: of similar duration. 423 00:22:29,836 --> 00:22:32,316 Speaker 2: Well, that term long duration energy storage is an interesting 424 00:22:32,356 --> 00:22:35,156 Speaker 2: one because it is used very broadly today, and that's 425 00:22:35,196 --> 00:22:37,996 Speaker 2: why we actually prefer the term multi day duration storage 426 00:22:38,036 --> 00:22:40,996 Speaker 2: because it puts a little bit more precision around what 427 00:22:41,036 --> 00:22:44,476 Speaker 2: we're doing specifically. So long duration energy storage is used 428 00:22:44,516 --> 00:22:47,076 Speaker 2: today to refer to six hours of lithium ion. 429 00:22:46,996 --> 00:22:49,156 Speaker 1: For you're like fat, you call that log It's like 430 00:22:49,196 --> 00:22:50,916 Speaker 1: I get out of bed in the morning, I do think. 431 00:22:51,556 --> 00:22:53,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, you know, for litium mine, it is long 432 00:22:53,756 --> 00:22:56,076 Speaker 2: compared to what it used to be, but it's fairly incremental. 433 00:22:56,236 --> 00:22:58,476 Speaker 1: Well, who else is going for multi day? Like? Tell 434 00:22:58,516 --> 00:23:01,236 Speaker 1: me other compelling multi day storage techniques. 435 00:23:01,276 --> 00:23:04,116 Speaker 2: So it's not so much that there's other storage technologies, 436 00:23:04,156 --> 00:23:06,916 Speaker 2: it's that there are other technologies that could act as 437 00:23:06,956 --> 00:23:10,036 Speaker 2: a substitute for what we're doing. So for example, nuclear power, 438 00:23:10,156 --> 00:23:14,516 Speaker 2: carbon capture on thermal plants, for example, hydrogen is also 439 00:23:14,796 --> 00:23:18,476 Speaker 2: a possibility there. Or even if you want to transmission, 440 00:23:18,716 --> 00:23:22,436 Speaker 2: if we had a perfectly interconnected globe for transmission, we 441 00:23:22,476 --> 00:23:24,196 Speaker 2: would never need to store energy at all. 442 00:23:24,276 --> 00:23:27,796 Speaker 1: Right, Oh, interesting, right, because the sun is always shining somewhere. 443 00:23:27,876 --> 00:23:29,956 Speaker 2: That's right. One eighth of the world is enjoying a 444 00:23:29,956 --> 00:23:32,956 Speaker 2: summer afternoon at all. Tests right, Yeah, So now that's 445 00:23:32,996 --> 00:23:33,956 Speaker 2: a thought experiment. 446 00:23:34,076 --> 00:23:36,316 Speaker 1: And do you like I mean, obviously that's the sort 447 00:23:36,316 --> 00:23:39,316 Speaker 1: of limit case that's not going to happen. But when 448 00:23:39,356 --> 00:23:42,476 Speaker 1: you think about reasons you might not win in the 449 00:23:42,516 --> 00:23:44,676 Speaker 1: long run, For lack of a better word, I don't 450 00:23:44,676 --> 00:23:50,236 Speaker 1: love that word there. You think more about universes where 451 00:23:50,276 --> 00:23:53,516 Speaker 1: we don't actually need one hundred hours of storage, universe 452 00:23:53,556 --> 00:23:56,556 Speaker 1: where there is great carbon capture on natural gas plants, 453 00:23:57,356 --> 00:23:59,516 Speaker 1: or more nuclear power, better transmission. 454 00:24:00,396 --> 00:24:04,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think about it quite that way. When 455 00:24:04,356 --> 00:24:07,316 Speaker 2: we think about competition, we need to make sure it's 456 00:24:07,356 --> 00:24:09,796 Speaker 2: in the context of the market that we're opp and 457 00:24:09,836 --> 00:24:13,076 Speaker 2: this is very much right now a non zero sum market. 458 00:24:13,156 --> 00:24:16,756 Speaker 2: In other words, it is growing incredibly fast and large. 459 00:24:17,156 --> 00:24:20,276 Speaker 2: And you know, the whole industry is just accelerating in 460 00:24:20,276 --> 00:24:23,436 Speaker 2: a way that it has not essentially since it was built. 461 00:24:24,076 --> 00:24:26,676 Speaker 2: So we're seeing load growth, you know, four or five 462 00:24:26,716 --> 00:24:29,676 Speaker 2: percent or more in some cases. It hasn't been like 463 00:24:29,716 --> 00:24:31,596 Speaker 2: that for literally fifty or sixty years. 464 00:24:31,836 --> 00:24:34,236 Speaker 1: Well, growth is basically demand. 465 00:24:33,836 --> 00:24:35,676 Speaker 2: For demand going up, that's right. 466 00:24:35,956 --> 00:24:39,596 Speaker 1: And that's like electrification plus artificial intelligence. I mean, it 467 00:24:39,636 --> 00:24:42,796 Speaker 1: is essentially those two drivers exactly. 468 00:24:43,116 --> 00:24:47,756 Speaker 2: That's exactly correct. Electrification of cars for you know, residential 469 00:24:48,076 --> 00:24:52,036 Speaker 2: applications and electrification of industrial processes. You know, very large consumers, 470 00:24:52,076 --> 00:24:55,636 Speaker 2: you know, transportation and industry, very large consumers of energy overall, 471 00:24:55,876 --> 00:24:59,156 Speaker 2: and now a lot of that is becoming electric energy 472 00:24:58,996 --> 00:25:02,916 Speaker 2: that they're consuming. And so our position in the market 473 00:25:02,956 --> 00:25:05,356 Speaker 2: is very strong because we have a solution that is 474 00:25:05,356 --> 00:25:09,636 Speaker 2: showing up in irrelevant timeframe and it can scale in 475 00:25:09,636 --> 00:25:13,236 Speaker 2: a way that our customers. These utilities need it to scale. 476 00:25:13,796 --> 00:25:17,836 Speaker 2: They need all solutions to show up. We've yet to 477 00:25:17,836 --> 00:25:20,836 Speaker 2: have a conversation with any utility who says I'm only 478 00:25:20,836 --> 00:25:21,636 Speaker 2: going with one solution. 479 00:25:21,876 --> 00:25:21,996 Speaker 1: Right. 480 00:25:22,036 --> 00:25:25,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're trying to build nuclear, they're trying to build 481 00:25:26,276 --> 00:25:29,396 Speaker 2: more natural gas, they're trying to build as much renewables 482 00:25:29,436 --> 00:25:31,716 Speaker 2: as they possibly can, and they're going to need this 483 00:25:31,796 --> 00:25:35,916 Speaker 2: kind of multiday duration storage. So it's it's such a 484 00:25:35,956 --> 00:25:40,036 Speaker 2: growth market for us that in some ways, if you 485 00:25:40,036 --> 00:25:43,036 Speaker 2: can show up with a product that meets the specification 486 00:25:43,396 --> 00:25:45,596 Speaker 2: on time and at scale, they will buy it just 487 00:25:45,636 --> 00:25:47,396 Speaker 2: about as much of it as you possibly can supply. 488 00:25:48,356 --> 00:25:51,676 Speaker 1: So if things go the way you hope they will go, 489 00:25:52,516 --> 00:25:56,996 Speaker 1: what will what will the world look like in whatever 490 00:25:57,076 --> 00:26:00,196 Speaker 1: the medium term, whatever that is for you, five years maybe. 491 00:26:00,636 --> 00:26:03,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, So in five years in the industry that we're 492 00:26:03,996 --> 00:26:07,476 Speaker 2: in form could be a spectacular commercial success of an 493 00:26:07,516 --> 00:26:12,516 Speaker 2: amazing business and still have relatively small impact just because 494 00:26:12,556 --> 00:26:16,156 Speaker 2: of the size and scale of the industry overall. And 495 00:26:16,156 --> 00:26:19,516 Speaker 2: I'll give you one point of reference. The US today 496 00:26:19,636 --> 00:26:25,116 Speaker 2: has about twelve hundred gigawatts of installed capacity generation capacity 497 00:26:25,236 --> 00:26:29,596 Speaker 2: in it and over the next five years, if we 498 00:26:30,316 --> 00:26:33,236 Speaker 2: absolutely blow out of the water, we may make ten 499 00:26:33,316 --> 00:26:37,396 Speaker 2: gigawatts worth of projects, which is a lot, which is 500 00:26:37,436 --> 00:26:40,236 Speaker 2: a tremendous amount, right for one company to produce. 501 00:26:40,436 --> 00:26:45,156 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's a lot of shipping containers of iron batteries. 502 00:26:44,956 --> 00:26:48,396 Speaker 2: That's right. And so it will take probably another ten 503 00:26:48,476 --> 00:26:52,556 Speaker 2: years past that to see the kind of multi day 504 00:26:52,596 --> 00:26:54,956 Speaker 2: stores that we're bringing into the market have a real 505 00:26:54,996 --> 00:26:58,196 Speaker 2: material effect in the industry. And I think that we 506 00:26:58,196 --> 00:27:01,396 Speaker 2: can get there for sure, but it requires scaling very 507 00:27:01,436 --> 00:27:06,396 Speaker 2: quickly in multiple markets Europe, Asia, Africa to be able 508 00:27:06,476 --> 00:27:10,716 Speaker 2: to drive the possibilities for what this kind of new 509 00:27:10,756 --> 00:27:13,716 Speaker 2: type of asset in the electric system can do. 510 00:27:14,716 --> 00:27:19,596 Speaker 1: So should that make me worry about the pace of decarbonization? 511 00:27:19,836 --> 00:27:22,716 Speaker 1: I mean, if it's you know, even if you succeed wildly, 512 00:27:24,516 --> 00:27:27,756 Speaker 1: you know, you will be very small relative to the 513 00:27:28,556 --> 00:27:33,396 Speaker 1: whatever to global demand for energy. Like I get that, 514 00:27:33,396 --> 00:27:35,236 Speaker 1: that's good for you, and in the long term it's 515 00:27:35,236 --> 00:27:37,116 Speaker 1: good for the world. But is it worrying in the 516 00:27:37,196 --> 00:27:39,356 Speaker 1: kind of short to medium term? Is it a reminder 517 00:27:39,396 --> 00:27:42,116 Speaker 1: of how hard decarbonization is at various margins? 518 00:27:42,396 --> 00:27:44,876 Speaker 2: Well, it certainly is a reminder of just how hard 519 00:27:44,876 --> 00:27:47,956 Speaker 2: it is and how large the challenges, the scale of 520 00:27:47,996 --> 00:27:50,476 Speaker 2: the challenge, And another way of thinking about it is 521 00:27:50,916 --> 00:27:54,436 Speaker 2: to achieve the goals that have been laid out by 522 00:27:54,596 --> 00:27:58,276 Speaker 2: governments across the globe. Roughly one hundred and fifty trillion 523 00:27:58,356 --> 00:28:01,196 Speaker 2: dollars of investment are required through twenty fifty. 524 00:28:02,556 --> 00:28:05,476 Speaker 1: Also good for you, but worry also good worrying. 525 00:28:05,956 --> 00:28:09,596 Speaker 2: The question is how quickly can we go from making 526 00:28:09,676 --> 00:28:12,396 Speaker 2: the plans and having the technologies that are nascent and 527 00:28:12,436 --> 00:28:14,996 Speaker 2: scaling up to actually implementing them at scale. And so 528 00:28:16,796 --> 00:28:19,916 Speaker 2: what is not so concerned to me is between twenty 529 00:28:19,996 --> 00:28:22,796 Speaker 2: thirty and twenty forty. I see a huge amount of 530 00:28:22,796 --> 00:28:26,396 Speaker 2: opportunity to scale exactly what we're talking about, and again 531 00:28:26,476 --> 00:28:29,236 Speaker 2: it's in all of the above scenario, So I see 532 00:28:29,276 --> 00:28:32,276 Speaker 2: a lot of effort that's going into just the acceleration 533 00:28:32,436 --> 00:28:35,316 Speaker 2: broadly speaking, and I do think that what Form is 534 00:28:35,316 --> 00:28:37,356 Speaker 2: bringing to the table can play a meaningful role in 535 00:28:37,356 --> 00:28:39,796 Speaker 2: that and it will take fifteen years to scale it up, 536 00:28:39,916 --> 00:28:42,956 Speaker 2: and it's very possible, and we need a huge diversity 537 00:28:42,956 --> 00:28:47,356 Speaker 2: of resources to meet the demand. Our existence in many 538 00:28:47,396 --> 00:28:50,076 Speaker 2: ways is based on electricity these days, and we need 539 00:28:50,116 --> 00:28:52,556 Speaker 2: all the different kinds of solutions to show up, and 540 00:28:53,396 --> 00:28:57,356 Speaker 2: multi data, viason storage and specifically iron air batteries can 541 00:28:57,436 --> 00:29:00,836 Speaker 2: play a meaningful role in that entire system and not 542 00:29:00,916 --> 00:29:06,396 Speaker 2: only drive reliability up and cost down, but also meet 543 00:29:06,396 --> 00:29:10,156 Speaker 2: the goals of load growth is a really big challenge, 544 00:29:10,476 --> 00:29:14,756 Speaker 2: and meet the decarbonization goals of the electric system overall. 545 00:29:15,076 --> 00:29:17,956 Speaker 2: And having this kind of asset just makes solving those 546 00:29:18,036 --> 00:29:19,556 Speaker 2: challenges a lot easier. 547 00:29:23,596 --> 00:29:25,836 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. 548 00:29:36,836 --> 00:29:39,356 Speaker 1: That's the end of the ADS. Now, of course, it's 549 00:29:39,396 --> 00:29:46,596 Speaker 1: time for the lightning round, So tell me about vocational discernment. 550 00:29:50,676 --> 00:29:53,396 Speaker 2: Well, I think you're referring to the fact that I 551 00:29:53,436 --> 00:29:57,716 Speaker 2: went to Divinity school at one point. This is, in fact, 552 00:29:57,796 --> 00:30:00,836 Speaker 2: right before I joined the battery industry, I went to 553 00:30:00,836 --> 00:30:04,036 Speaker 2: the Yale Divinity School, and Yale is a great place. 554 00:30:04,076 --> 00:30:07,916 Speaker 2: I did consider going into the ministry. And one of 555 00:30:07,956 --> 00:30:09,836 Speaker 2: the reasons why Yale me School is a great place 556 00:30:09,876 --> 00:30:12,836 Speaker 2: is because they put you through the vocational discernment process, 557 00:30:12,836 --> 00:30:17,956 Speaker 2: a very intentional process to discern if indeed the ordained 558 00:30:17,956 --> 00:30:21,596 Speaker 2: ministry is right for you. And I realized very early 559 00:30:21,636 --> 00:30:23,756 Speaker 2: on that I was not cut out at all to 560 00:30:23,836 --> 00:30:26,956 Speaker 2: be an ordained minister, which is which is fortunate. 561 00:30:26,556 --> 00:30:28,996 Speaker 1: You discerned that it was not your vocation. That's right. 562 00:30:29,036 --> 00:30:31,876 Speaker 2: It's a great thing to learn early on in the process. 563 00:30:32,876 --> 00:30:36,356 Speaker 2: And and so I quickly realized if not that, then 564 00:30:36,436 --> 00:30:39,836 Speaker 2: what and and so taking those same skills, because they 565 00:30:39,836 --> 00:30:43,436 Speaker 2: are skills you can apply to a lot of, you know, mindsets. 566 00:30:44,036 --> 00:30:46,276 Speaker 2: I really tried to figure out what what did I 567 00:30:46,316 --> 00:30:48,076 Speaker 2: want to work on? I do want to work on. 568 00:30:48,396 --> 00:30:49,996 Speaker 2: I have always wanted to work on something that I 569 00:30:49,996 --> 00:30:53,916 Speaker 2: felt was meaningful and impactful, and and so for me, 570 00:30:54,036 --> 00:30:56,116 Speaker 2: I just kept coming back to energy for for a 571 00:30:56,116 --> 00:30:59,436 Speaker 2: lot of reasons. As a way to really make lives 572 00:30:59,436 --> 00:31:00,676 Speaker 2: better in a lot of ways. 573 00:31:01,036 --> 00:31:01,196 Speaker 1: You know. 574 00:31:01,276 --> 00:31:05,036 Speaker 2: One of the other elements of vocational discernment is you 575 00:31:05,396 --> 00:31:08,636 Speaker 2: identify sort of key features of yourself, your personality, if 576 00:31:08,636 --> 00:31:11,276 Speaker 2: you want. And one thing that I have come to 577 00:31:11,316 --> 00:31:13,396 Speaker 2: learn about myself, not just them, but over a lot 578 00:31:13,396 --> 00:31:16,276 Speaker 2: of time is I'm a pretty patient person for the 579 00:31:16,316 --> 00:31:19,036 Speaker 2: things that I think are worthwhile, and so I was 580 00:31:19,076 --> 00:31:21,996 Speaker 2: prepared to pursue something that I thought might take a 581 00:31:21,996 --> 00:31:25,236 Speaker 2: decade or two, and that's what has happened. But I've 582 00:31:25,236 --> 00:31:28,036 Speaker 2: stuck with it since then, and I'm glad of it. 583 00:31:28,036 --> 00:31:31,116 Speaker 2: It's been it's been a great rite. 584 00:31:31,356 --> 00:31:33,276 Speaker 1: Why did you think you might want to be a priest? 585 00:31:38,156 --> 00:31:40,676 Speaker 2: Well, what I think I want to be a priest 586 00:31:40,756 --> 00:31:42,756 Speaker 2: was because I am attracted to a lot of the 587 00:31:42,876 --> 00:31:48,916 Speaker 2: intellectual elements of religion, and that is not the vocation. 588 00:31:49,516 --> 00:31:52,036 Speaker 2: It turns out. I'm much more attracted to problems solving 589 00:31:52,516 --> 00:31:55,396 Speaker 2: than problem listening, which is a large part of being 590 00:31:55,116 --> 00:31:58,676 Speaker 2: a being a minister. So that's what I thought, But 591 00:31:59,036 --> 00:32:04,836 Speaker 2: there's there. I have a huge fascination intellectually with religion 592 00:32:04,916 --> 00:32:07,956 Speaker 2: and with the notion of God, and it was something 593 00:32:07,956 --> 00:32:10,396 Speaker 2: that I wanted to spend time really thinking carefully about. 594 00:32:12,036 --> 00:32:14,996 Speaker 1: What's something you learned in divinity school that's helpful in 595 00:32:15,076 --> 00:32:16,596 Speaker 1: running a company. 596 00:32:19,516 --> 00:32:23,156 Speaker 2: So so many different things, you know, the study of 597 00:32:23,716 --> 00:32:27,836 Speaker 2: theology in many ways is the study of human nature. 598 00:32:28,556 --> 00:32:33,516 Speaker 2: And one thing about batteries that I love it. You 599 00:32:33,556 --> 00:32:36,116 Speaker 2: know why it continues to think as a category, continue 600 00:32:36,156 --> 00:32:40,436 Speaker 2: to fascinate me now and half since I started, is 601 00:32:40,476 --> 00:32:42,756 Speaker 2: that batteries are in some ways like humans. They're all 602 00:32:42,756 --> 00:32:45,956 Speaker 2: flawed in some way, and there is no perfect battery, 603 00:32:46,516 --> 00:32:49,596 Speaker 2: and they can always be improved. That's the other thing 604 00:32:49,636 --> 00:32:50,636 Speaker 2: I like about them. 605 00:32:51,116 --> 00:32:54,476 Speaker 1: That seems like a particularly Christian reader of batteries, if 606 00:32:54,476 --> 00:32:55,356 Speaker 1: I might say, so. 607 00:32:55,756 --> 00:32:58,916 Speaker 2: There's there's yeah there, you know, there's no We don't 608 00:32:58,916 --> 00:33:03,556 Speaker 2: know the limits of how batteries can be. And if 609 00:33:03,556 --> 00:33:09,076 Speaker 2: you're curious enough then then then the rewards can be fantastic. 610 00:33:09,876 --> 00:33:11,796 Speaker 2: And the also the other thing is if you find 611 00:33:11,796 --> 00:33:15,556 Speaker 2: the right fit for the battery, then the flaws don't 612 00:33:15,596 --> 00:33:17,996 Speaker 2: matter so much. And that's also sort of the way 613 00:33:18,076 --> 00:33:18,796 Speaker 2: humans are. Right. 614 00:33:21,596 --> 00:33:26,156 Speaker 1: So you and John Steinbeck share a hometown, Salinas, California. 615 00:33:27,116 --> 00:33:29,876 Speaker 1: What's one Steinbeck book? If somebody's going to read one 616 00:33:30,276 --> 00:33:31,196 Speaker 1: John Steinbeck book? 617 00:33:31,236 --> 00:33:35,716 Speaker 2: What should they read, Well, east of Eden, but that's 618 00:33:35,756 --> 00:33:40,916 Speaker 2: a long one, so there are shorter ones. You know. 619 00:33:40,956 --> 00:33:43,396 Speaker 2: It sounds strange, but dubious Battle is one that really 620 00:33:43,396 --> 00:33:50,276 Speaker 2: stuck with me. It's about labor relations, which was like. 621 00:33:50,236 --> 00:33:52,316 Speaker 1: The family business for you growing up, right. 622 00:33:53,436 --> 00:33:56,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, my father was a lawyer for farm workers and 623 00:33:56,396 --> 00:33:59,036 Speaker 2: my mom was a teacher in public schools for basically 624 00:33:59,116 --> 00:34:00,076 Speaker 2: kids who farm workers. 625 00:34:01,476 --> 00:34:04,876 Speaker 1: What's one thing that you wish more people understood about 626 00:34:05,556 --> 00:34:06,596 Speaker 1: energy or power? 627 00:34:09,276 --> 00:34:12,956 Speaker 2: Well, back to some of our earlier comments, just the 628 00:34:12,996 --> 00:34:18,116 Speaker 2: scale of the industry and this and the size of 629 00:34:18,196 --> 00:34:20,876 Speaker 2: things that happened. It really boggles the mind to try 630 00:34:20,876 --> 00:34:24,396 Speaker 2: and appreciate how big of an industry it is and 631 00:34:24,436 --> 00:34:27,196 Speaker 2: how much change is happening to such a large industry. 632 00:34:27,356 --> 00:34:30,116 Speaker 1: I think it was maybe lots of people have said it, 633 00:34:30,156 --> 00:34:32,756 Speaker 1: but I heard Jigger Shaw describe the grid as like 634 00:34:32,956 --> 00:34:36,156 Speaker 1: the biggest machine ever built in the history of the world, 635 00:34:36,476 --> 00:34:38,916 Speaker 1: which is a kind of rad way to think of it. 636 00:34:38,956 --> 00:34:40,996 Speaker 1: Like it's this one giant machine, and not only is 637 00:34:41,036 --> 00:34:44,356 Speaker 1: it giant, it has to work all the time, right, 638 00:34:44,436 --> 00:34:47,236 Speaker 1: Like that's the other wild like you can never ever 639 00:34:47,396 --> 00:34:48,956 Speaker 1: turn it off, that's right. 640 00:34:49,076 --> 00:34:52,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, And not only that We're matching supply and demand 641 00:34:52,476 --> 00:34:56,276 Speaker 2: instantaneously at all times, right, That's how the machine operates. 642 00:34:56,276 --> 00:34:59,236 Speaker 2: So the way it operates is also just, you know, 643 00:34:59,316 --> 00:35:02,756 Speaker 2: phenomenally complex, and it's amazing that we're able to have 644 00:35:02,796 --> 00:35:06,276 Speaker 2: as much reliability as we do today. And so you know, 645 00:35:06,356 --> 00:35:09,436 Speaker 2: the grid will be reinvented, it will be rebuilt actually 646 00:35:10,076 --> 00:35:13,116 Speaker 2: and rebuilt again over the next thirty or four years. 647 00:35:13,196 --> 00:35:16,356 Speaker 2: And so the scale, which is again hard to approximate, 648 00:35:16,676 --> 00:35:20,436 Speaker 2: but appreciating that is key to understanding the direction that 649 00:35:20,516 --> 00:35:23,636 Speaker 2: it will take and what will be involved to effect 650 00:35:23,676 --> 00:35:24,236 Speaker 2: this change. 651 00:35:24,276 --> 00:35:26,356 Speaker 1: It's like, is it the ship of theseus? Is that 652 00:35:26,396 --> 00:35:29,956 Speaker 1: the one? It's like the giant, the giant like national 653 00:35:30,036 --> 00:35:32,596 Speaker 1: scale ship of Thesius, where it's like the whole grid 654 00:35:32,596 --> 00:35:34,716 Speaker 1: will be different and you won't even notice, You'll just 655 00:35:35,036 --> 00:35:36,876 Speaker 1: flip the switch and the lights will go on. 656 00:35:37,396 --> 00:35:39,196 Speaker 2: That is what we're heading for for sure. 657 00:35:43,156 --> 00:35:47,636 Speaker 1: Matteo Hademillo is the co founder and CEO of Form Energy. 658 00:35:48,876 --> 00:35:52,116 Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang. It was 659 00:35:52,396 --> 00:35:55,836 Speaker 1: edited by Lyddy jen Kott and engineered by Sarah Bruguer. 660 00:35:56,316 --> 00:35:59,476 Speaker 1: You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot FM. 661 00:36:00,036 --> 00:36:02,396 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein, and we'll be back next week with 662 00:36:02,476 --> 00:36:11,916 Speaker 1: another episode of What's Your Problem.