Speaker 1: Music Saved Me. I tell kids all the time whenever
Speaker 1: I meete a kid, you know, and it's how do
Speaker 1: I get into this business? Bud, I say the same thing.
Speaker 1: It's like the look if you ever wake up one
Speaker 1: morning and you have a strange fascination with, you know, arugula,
Speaker 1: and you think to yourself, God, I could market the
Speaker 1: world's greatest arugula. I can make a strain that's like
Speaker 1: hybrid arugular or something, and every Whole Foods and Trader
Speaker 1: Joe's will be all over it. Go make your damn arugula,
Speaker 1: because this is brutal.
Speaker 2: I'm Lynn Hoffman, and welcome to the Music Saved Me Podcast,
Speaker 2: the podcast where we explore the power of music to
Speaker 2: heal and help anyone in need. On this episode, a
Speaker 2: brilliant songwriter, producer, and musician who has worked with an
Speaker 2: incredible dare I say almost unbelievable roster of stars from
Speaker 2: just about every musical genre, ranging from Panic at the Disco,
Speaker 2: One Direction, Katie Perry, Billy Idel, Weezer, Blues Traveler, Macklemore,
Speaker 2: Train ringo Star. I could probably keep going and then
Speaker 2: the podcast would be over and he wouldn't even be
Speaker 2: able to talk. He's also a massive supporter of the
Speaker 2: incredible organization known as Musicians on Call, which we are
Speaker 2: as well. Welcome Sam Hollander, Welcome to music.
Speaker 1: See hey, apologize and advance for any barking dogs or sneezing.
Speaker 1: But that's okay. Pollen count, the pollen count is not
Speaker 1: working my favorite this hour. But I do believe in
Speaker 1: the potential of zertech.
Speaker 2: So let's go aga and greatness, which you are? All right, Well,
Speaker 2: let's just jump right in, okay, Sam. Do you believe
Speaker 2: music and songs have supernatural healing powers for those with mental, physical,
Speaker 2: or say emotional problems?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: Absolutely. You know I've always, uh, I've always used music
Speaker 1: as a form of catharsist for myself, both my own
Speaker 1: art and also you know, as a fan growing up.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, as a child, I always felt misunderstood,
Speaker 1: as we all do in those years, and so music
Speaker 1: was this sort of the soundtrack to the unrequited for me.
Speaker 1: So whatever I was spiraling in my psyche, up and
Speaker 1: down and up and down, music was the one thing
Speaker 1: that elevated me. And you know, I think one of
Speaker 1: the what really attracts me to music as a songwriter.
Speaker 1: One thing that really dig is the notion that I
Speaker 1: can provide sort of uplifting, sort of aspirational stuff that
Speaker 1: I really write for myself because I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: stitch any broken mechanisms inside of myself, you know. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, I do think that if it
Speaker 1: reacts and I've you know, maybe altered someone's day the
Speaker 1: slightest bit, it's a great job in the world, you know.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Is there a specific litmus test or for example,
Speaker 2: when you're writing or producing a song and you're arranging
Speaker 2: the music, is there a place where you can tell
Speaker 2: that you're going to evoke a certain emotion in someone?
Speaker 2: Is that is that the secret sauce? Is there a
Speaker 2: secret sauce?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's some sort of galvanic response that happens.
Speaker 1: Right the songs that I think, at least in my
Speaker 1: in my life that have h have raised their hands
Speaker 1: and sort of done something and maybe actualized in a
Speaker 1: shape or form, I would say I always I always
Speaker 1: knew that there was something there. I don't think I've
Speaker 1: ever really been surprised, And it's sort of hard to
Speaker 1: articulate what the what the special sauce is. You're just
Speaker 1: there's a feeling in the room when the melody and
Speaker 1: the lyric sort of twists their way around a chord
Speaker 1: and it just hits and you feel that a motive moment.
Speaker 1: I remember this song, this Kidna in banners from London
Speaker 1: via Canada or Canada via London. There we go and
Speaker 1: you know, he came to the studio and we wrote
Speaker 1: a song called someone to You. It's Me. This is
Speaker 1: Michael's Me, Michael and Grant. Michael's strange. But what was
Speaker 1: so interesting about it is I knew by the time
Speaker 1: we landed the chorus that the song was special and
Speaker 1: it had the deck stack against it was one of
Speaker 1: those songs. This was not gonna be a lay up
Speaker 1: new artists, no real backstory to date, blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: But there was something about it that just you could
Speaker 1: just feel emotively that this was going to just, you know,
Speaker 1: elevate someone's daily experience. And that's what we do. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't write a lot of dark stuff because truthfully,
Speaker 1: the world is as complex and messy as it is.
Speaker 1: I don't think I need to be another voice sort
Speaker 1: of harping on that. I'd rather just try to, you know,
Speaker 1: up put a little bit of a little bit of
Speaker 1: positive energy out there. Even I like the sweet and sour,
Speaker 1: and sometimes I get my little jabs and my little
Speaker 1: you know, steely dan guy. Right. So I grew up
Speaker 1: listening to doll Fagan with all the yah, with all
Speaker 1: the you know, with all the the little you know,
Speaker 1: the little jabs that he was able to work into
Speaker 1: songs that were jazzy, but yet the core were so
Speaker 1: dark and sort of interesting and funny. I like humor
Speaker 1: in my music, but at the same time, it's gotta
Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: I wanted to, you know, stay somewhat aspirational or something
Speaker 1: to that effect.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, interesting, speaking of that, what what would
Speaker 2: go through your mind during those moments when something that
Speaker 2: you were involved with so intimately to create impact someone
Speaker 2: in in such a in a positive way or an
Speaker 2: emotional way.
Speaker 1: Well, when like people, uh slide into my dms, the
Speaker 1: youth says, and they dip into my dams. It's invariably
Speaker 1: a really beautiful note and it's very sweet, and it's
Speaker 1: somebody who was affected and they sort of tell that,
Speaker 1: you know, the given narrative, and they tell me how
Speaker 1: it affected them, and it's it's incredible, Like you know what,
Speaker 1: there there are many jobs that you know, they're they're
Speaker 1: all these there are all these incredible jobs and vocations
Speaker 1: that bring tons of joy to people, and it's just
Speaker 1: nice to know that music can be one of them.
Speaker 1: You know, the music can sort of affect the psyche
Speaker 1: in that way. And you know, so I'm always very
Speaker 1: moved to be upset, honest with you, it's very uh,
Speaker 1: it's it's humbling, and it's you know, it just it
Speaker 1: makes me want to get up and write in another one.
Speaker 2: You know, in what way do you do you feel
Speaker 2: that music gives people hope? And have you ever personally
Speaker 2: used music to help yourself through? Say it difficult, Lina?
Speaker 1: Did you see what I look like? Right? So? It
Speaker 1: was an a handsome guy. No, I was uphill battle
Speaker 1: from birth. And I will tell you and you know,
Speaker 1: in the Canadian days, in these in my formative years,
Speaker 1: I uh, you know, I think I modeled myself ester
Speaker 1: sort of a slightly more muscle bound version of John
Speaker 1: Cryer as Ducky, you know. And I had the pork
Speaker 1: pie hats, and I had vadoras and I had all
Speaker 1: these things, and I was a strange character, you know,
Speaker 1: who was so lost. And I think the if I
Speaker 1: were to find myself through four years of high school
Speaker 1: beyond uh, you know, academically challenged, I would say, you know,
Speaker 1: it was just one unrequited relationship after another, and you know,
Speaker 1: music got me through it. Like I said, music was
Speaker 1: that it answered the questions. I felt like every lyricist
Speaker 1: before me sort of paved a path. And you know,
Speaker 1: I would listen to the torture of or Robert Smith,
Speaker 1: or I would listen to, you know, the playfulness of
Speaker 1: Tropical Quester Dea La Soul and r Em was my
Speaker 1: favorite band of all, and I didn't even know what
Speaker 1: he was saying, but it just I liked the word
Speaker 1: play and it sounded interesting. But I would play almost
Speaker 1: it was almost like Jenga lyrically, right, so it is
Speaker 1: where you what's the one where you mad lips, mad lips.
Speaker 1: It's almost like madlips right where. I would take types
Speaker 1: of lyrics I had no idea was saying, so I
Speaker 1: would just figure out and just guess them. To me,
Speaker 1: they were all torture. Bob Mould Hohoscredoo was probably my
Speaker 1: favorite lyricist in high school was probably between Fagan and
Speaker 1: Mold and I think both they were great. They were great.
Speaker 1: They were great at chronicling the teen experience and sort
Speaker 1: of growing up and coming of age and cities and
Speaker 1: things like that, and you know it, so I would say,
Speaker 1: you know, that got me through and I whenever I
Speaker 1: meet somebody who was sort of is so embedded in
Speaker 1: my mental playlist. I fanboy at such a level because
Speaker 1: I just can't believe that these pay the way and
Speaker 1: I'm just lucky to have hitched on the bandwagon. It's awesome,
Speaker 1: the best.
Speaker 2: So what do you think the world would look like
Speaker 2: without music? I know that's a well big question.
Speaker 1: What do the kids call them NPCs? You know, not
Speaker 1: like non playing character or whatever. It's a video game
Speaker 1: term about being very basic. The world would be very basic.
Speaker 1: It's like it's the color and it's the colorful characters
Speaker 1: and you know, look, music to me was the original
Speaker 1: short form content, right. It was just three minutes of perfection.
Speaker 1: I was never a prog guy, right because prog came
Speaker 1: along and with these songs are twenty five minutes long.
Speaker 1: You know, I wanted to do anything to do with
Speaker 1: this let's let's whack it down and make it you know,
Speaker 1: two minutes and forty seconds of July. But I don't.
Speaker 1: I just I can't envision it because it's been embedded
Speaker 1: in my DNA since I was three. When I, you know,
Speaker 1: I was listening to Blossom Deary records with my mom.
Speaker 1: She was a big Blossom Deary fan, and we would
Speaker 1: sit and listen to these like vocal jazz records. That
Speaker 1: was three or four, and I just loved what was
Speaker 1: going on melodically, Gateway to Magic by Pilot, you know,
Speaker 1: better known as the Ozembic song. No, it's obviously that's
Speaker 1: where people really it's really caught on a magical single.
Speaker 1: But that was the first single I ever dug, and
Speaker 1: I grew up on all this k Tel stuff and
Speaker 1: then that morphed into all these genres and they're all,
Speaker 1: you know, I just can't imagine life without them. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, the first thing I do when I get
Speaker 1: in the car is turn on Serious. The first thing
Speaker 1: I do, you know or Z one hundred? My man
Speaker 1: Maxwell like that? Shat uh, my man Maxwell. He gave
Speaker 1: me a hug. It's very sweet guy, very sweet.
Speaker 2: When you were younger or older?
Speaker 1: Oh, no, like four days ago.
Speaker 2: Are you sure you're not also a comedian on the side.
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Is that a part of writing is that you have
Speaker 2: really good timing?
Speaker 1: No matter what, it's not me, it's the decongestent.
Speaker 2: All right, that's rights zertech. How did you first become
Speaker 2: associated with the fine folks at Musicians on Call? And
Speaker 2: if you wouldn't mind indulging us on what it was
Speaker 2: like witnessing firsthand being involved.
Speaker 1: With Well, it's funny. I go back to the early
Speaker 1: days of the organization because I was started by Victuari
Speaker 1: and Michael Solomon, who were people unknown socially since we
Speaker 1: were all in our twenties together, mid twenties. I remember
Speaker 1: when they launched, and you know, it's a very kooky story.
Speaker 1: I loved their mission. I support it completely, but I
Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily involved boots on on the ground. And then
Speaker 1: when my father was in his last days, he was
Speaker 1: at Mount sign I in the cancer word, and I
Speaker 1: went to visit him one day and I heard an
Speaker 1: acoustic guitar in the next room, and I peeked around
Speaker 1: the corner and there was a man who was easily
Speaker 1: and octagenarian to put it mildly strumming acoustic, and it
Speaker 1: looked like one of these old Greenwich village folkcats that
Speaker 1: you see in documentaries, you know. And he was playing
Speaker 1: for a woman who had to be nine the thing.
Speaker 1: And when he finished, he walked down the hall and
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I'm so sorry to bother you,
Speaker 1: but uh, what's your story? Are you related or whatever?
Speaker 1: And he said no, he said, I'm with the charity
Speaker 1: musicians on call. And I had chills because I really
Speaker 1: felt that that moment had just been completely placed there
Speaker 1: from some weird divine spirit. It just didn't make it.
Speaker 1: It just was so one. It was. It was a
Speaker 1: one in a million moments. So I instantly got involved,
Speaker 1: and I got on the advisory board and I'm on
Speaker 1: the board of directors. And look, you know, uh, we
Speaker 1: visited patients with my Christmas band, the Band of Merrymakers,
Speaker 1: and we performed at hospitals on both coasts. We wrote
Speaker 1: original songs with kids and it's it's the heaviest work
Speaker 1: I've ever done. Nothing competes with it. It's uh, it's a
Speaker 1: labor of love. And there, you know, when you talk
Speaker 1: about how music impacts people, it's the most powerful thing
Speaker 1: in the world. You can see it just manages stress
Speaker 1: and alleviating pain and improving blood pressure and all these
Speaker 1: it's just scientific information. You just know it. It's true. Music,
Speaker 1: you know, is therapeutic, and so to play a role
Speaker 1: in that is it's incredible, absolutely incredible. I absolutely adore
Speaker 1: the organization and top to bottom also probably the nicest
Speaker 1: people I've ever worked with an a capacity. If Record
Speaker 1: Labels had the energy of MOC, we'd be in to
Speaker 1: be a better world.
Speaker 2: So it's there there. We love them and we're so
Speaker 2: grateful that they're a part of our world because it
Speaker 2: just makes me feel like, although I can't do what
Speaker 2: you do, at least I can talk about it and
Speaker 2: spread the word.
Speaker 1: Look, then the truth is, no one really needs to
Speaker 1: see me perform, right, It's like my charm is behind
Speaker 1: a curtain. But if my words and you know, we
Speaker 1: can sing Christmas songs and do things like that, and
Speaker 1: if I can help with awareness and I can get
Speaker 1: my friends to play at Christmas show, et cetera, it's really, uh,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: doing I'm doing the right thing. Yeah, you want, I'm
Speaker 1: paying something forward. That, you know, I'm proud. It's great.
Speaker 2: Besides the fact learning that you were babysat for a
Speaker 2: short amount of time by Andy Warhol, which obviously is
Speaker 2: a story for another time. I also read that your
Speaker 2: uncle was a famous American poet and literary critic named
Speaker 2: John Hollander, and I read that you once said that
Speaker 2: you didn't often connect with him when you were growing up.
Speaker 2: And it seems strange to me, because you would think
Speaker 2: writing would be hereditary and that everyone would just automatically
Speaker 2: know having an uncle like that, Did you ever connect
Speaker 2: with him? And if so, was music the connector eventually?
Speaker 1: Uh? No, it was Yankee baseball?
Speaker 3: But uh oh interesting, Yeah, you know, John was a
Speaker 3: you know, I came from a very strange family pictures
Speaker 3: sort of the royal tantembaumbs or something to that effect,
Speaker 3: where you know, my dad was an incredible modern dancer
Speaker 3: with those Ala Loane professional at eighteen and then went
Speaker 3: back to school architect with Philip Johnson, did all this
Speaker 3: mid century modern stuff, and then a professor for the
Speaker 3: rest of his life.
Speaker 1: Mom working with Warhol and writing for Interview magazine. She's
Speaker 1: the home first and I believe only female sports writer
Speaker 1: ever for Interview magazine because in the midst of some
Speaker 1: sort of psychotic breakdown, she said, I want to write
Speaker 1: about sports and the psychology behind sports because I just
Speaker 1: don't get this. And I think Gandy was puzzled, but
Speaker 1: let her run with it. So that was neat. And
Speaker 1: you know, everyone in my family had a realer We
Speaker 1: all had artistic bents of different sorts, you know, And
Speaker 1: you know with John, I mean John was you know,
Speaker 1: my parents were so heady, my uncle was so hetty,
Speaker 1: and it was sometimes hard to connect with him because,
Speaker 1: like I said, I was so massively adhd in a
Speaker 1: time of the eighties when we didn't know what that was.
Speaker 1: It was so you were just deemed a colossal screw up.
Speaker 1: And what happens with that, of course, it's a self
Speaker 1: defeating prophecy, right you start to believe I become it,
Speaker 1: I manifested. You want to screw up, I'll be as
Speaker 1: screw up. So graduate at the bottom of my high
Speaker 1: school three colleges and two semesters, which I still believe
Speaker 1: is very hard to pull off. Yeah, that's a flex
Speaker 1: you know, and I just, uh, it was, uh so
Speaker 1: it would be it was very hard to connect on
Speaker 1: any aesthetic level with these people who were just so
Speaker 1: beyond me at that age. But as time went on,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I I really I like to
Speaker 1: I think I earned some real respect in my family,
Speaker 1: and you know, I think the number one thing was
Speaker 1: my tenacity. You know, I just I wanted it so bad.
Speaker 1: I wanted to write songs that that entered some semblance
Speaker 1: of a zeitgeist. Right. I just wanted to hear a
Speaker 1: song in a movie, or hear it in a stadium,
Speaker 1: or hear it on the radio, because I was completely
Speaker 1: raised on radios one, so I just wanted to hear
Speaker 1: these uh. I wanted to hear these songs. And I
Speaker 1: that that was I think the I think the one
Speaker 1: redeeming character trait that I have because some stink, but
Speaker 1: one I would say was I'm really Uh, I do
Speaker 1: put the work in and I'm very passionate about my art,
Speaker 1: and I think in my family, I think that's pretty respected.
Speaker 1: So it was neat and didn't.
Speaker 2: Didn't so much in the Eagles call him up and
Speaker 2: he needed to consult with you about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in the last years of my life, my own
Speaker 1: got an email from Don Henley and Don Henley had
Speaker 1: set one of his poems to music, and they put
Speaker 1: it on the hell Freeze Over record. I believe, oh
Speaker 1: that little record, Yeah, yeah, is that whatever? Whatever? The
Speaker 1: Walmart was in two thousand and seven, and you know,
Speaker 1: the record did two three million copies. Whatever. I had
Speaker 1: never I was just about to have my first hit
Speaker 1: with the Gym Class Heroes, and I'm finally like feeling
Speaker 1: like I've done it. And my uncle, who at that
Speaker 1: time was in his eighties, is on a bigger record
Speaker 1: and never written, not a record before, so you know,
Speaker 1: it's you know, I equate the music business with waking
Speaker 1: up every single morning walking outside picture you're on you know,
Speaker 1: Seventh Avenue South, any downtown, you walk outside of your building,
Speaker 1: you get hit by a cab every single day for
Speaker 1: thirty years, and every single day you have to wake
Speaker 1: up and dust yourself off and go create art. Because
Speaker 1: that's what it's like. I just say, you know, the
Speaker 1: fear I have when I wake up in the morning
Speaker 1: of just looking at you for something falling through or
Speaker 1: something being rejected, et cetera. It can really do a
Speaker 1: damage to your morale. So I would say, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: proudest of the fact that I can still get up
Speaker 1: every single day. And now you know I'm geriatric, but
Speaker 1: I still got it.
Speaker 2: Let's not go that far. We're born in the nine Well,
Speaker 2: you've put together a book called I Love the title
Speaker 2: of your book twenty one hit wonder, Flopping my way
Speaker 2: to the top of the charts, adventures and songwriting. Can
Speaker 2: you explain a little bit about what one would read
Speaker 2: when they open the pages of the book?
Speaker 1: I can, I can. You know, I wrote this book
Speaker 1: because first of all, it was completing what I felt
Speaker 1: at the beginning on the onset, I felt like I
Speaker 1: was competing, completing my dad's journey. There was a part
Speaker 1: there was there was a hole in his life where
Speaker 1: he to me at least, which then I resolved towards
Speaker 1: the end of the book. But you know, he began
Speaker 1: writing a book when I was seven, and he never
Speaker 1: finished it. Forty years later he passed and he would
Speaker 1: just come back to it and then put it down.
Speaker 1: And you know, it was it was nothing that I
Speaker 1: could ever stitch together. And it gutted me, to be
Speaker 1: honest with you, I was absolutely crushed, because you know,
Speaker 1: he was this brilliant man. I felt like I felt
Speaker 1: like the world never really got to know, you know,
Speaker 1: the extent of his genius. And so that's why I started,
Speaker 1: because I felt for my daughter. You know, I have
Speaker 1: one kid, and you know, she's musical, and I felt,
Speaker 1: you know, she should really understand a little bit of
Speaker 1: the family backstory and also what what hard work is
Speaker 1: and more appropriately, what failure is, because you know, I
Speaker 1: when you read the names of the people I've collaborated with,
Speaker 1: there's some of these songs. It's very moving for me.
Speaker 1: But it all happened after the age of thirty five,
Speaker 1: and up to thirty five, I'm bang grupting every label
Speaker 1: in the business. We went flop after flop after flop,
Speaker 1: and that gets lost. And what happens is what I've
Speaker 1: learned about in entertainment. You know, it's funny come tight
Speaker 1: with Chuck D and great great guy, Public Enemy and
Speaker 1: Chuck D. You know he knows more daybuddy. You know,
Speaker 1: the industry just buries carcasses of failure. Right. We don't
Speaker 1: talk about these things. Right, So whenever I read a
Speaker 1: puff piece, and like Chuck, Chuck really reads entertainment books,
Speaker 1: which I thought was fascinating because I do too. And
Speaker 1: I've always felt like maybe I'm living myself. But you know,
Speaker 1: there's nothing about you know, eighteen seventies, you know Prague
Speaker 1: that I can get through my adhd is that's severe, Lenn.
Speaker 1: So I have to get through these entertainment homes. And
Speaker 1: one thing I'd say is they're all a humble brag.
Speaker 1: Every book I read is a humble brag that tends
Speaker 1: to be like a couple of moments of duress and failure.
Speaker 1: Maybe one you overcame one thing and then suddenly it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: in surprise, and then well, let's spike the ball the
Speaker 1: next two hundred fifty pages. And what I wanted to
Speaker 1: do was really harp on all these records that I made.
Speaker 1: I mean, the first six albums that I produced for
Speaker 1: artists didn't get released. One came out, the six came
Speaker 1: out in September eleventh, two thousand and one, and ended
Speaker 1: a career right there. But I ruined so many people's careers.
Speaker 1: And the truth is I really played a massive role
Speaker 1: in it in terms of just and what I excavate
Speaker 1: these projects and talk about my role. It's not I'm
Speaker 1: not blaming people or blaming the arts of the labels
Speaker 1: or anything. It's really you know, judgment calls that I
Speaker 1: made and missed one, and that's what I wanted to
Speaker 1: write about. Make it just give people a little bit
Speaker 1: of a manual on how do you survive something where
Speaker 1: the deck is decked against you every day of the
Speaker 1: week for decades. And that's what I did. And I
Speaker 1: just felt like I felt like, you know, in this
Speaker 1: new generation of kids who are gonna have to compete
Speaker 1: with AI, which is going to take such a chunk
Speaker 1: out of the marketplace. And you know, and the fact
Speaker 1: that the democra reization music, everybody has the tools to
Speaker 1: make their meeting. Everyone has a recording studio in their house.
Speaker 1: That think about that. When I was a kid, Neil
Speaker 1: Minsky lived in Pound Ridge and he had a four
Speaker 1: track and he was the coolest kid in the world.
Speaker 1: He had a four track. I've never seen anything like it. Like,
Speaker 1: no one had gear. You know, Now everybody can do
Speaker 1: it on their laptop. It's built in garage band comes
Speaker 1: to the laptop. You know, these kids are working on
Speaker 1: logic at the age of eight nine, so it's so
Speaker 1: competitive now. And then you have to hit the algorithm
Speaker 1: of TikTok and all these other things to even be heard,
Speaker 1: so we're in These are truly crazy days. So the
Speaker 1: one thing is I just wanted to sort of give
Speaker 1: a little bit of a blueprint for anybody who's like
Speaker 1: me out there, who is still struggling to figure out
Speaker 1: and just understand that it will happen. But you have
Speaker 1: to stick it out and you gotta you really do
Speaker 1: have to put the work in.
Speaker 2: So true and so lost today on just about everyone.
Speaker 2: So definitely welcome, welcome inform it and if they're willing
Speaker 2: to put in the time to listen. But many artists
Speaker 2: I've interviewed through the years have said that they wrote
Speaker 2: the hit song that they really got well known for.
Speaker 2: They wrote for themselves, arranged for themselves what they liked,
Speaker 2: what they wanted to hear, and then we're shocked to
Speaker 2: find that it actually resonated with so many people. Is
Speaker 2: that still something that happens today, do you think?
Speaker 1: Well? Truthfully, I'm shape shifting and with every artist that
Speaker 1: I collaborate with because I'm trying to avoid instilling my
Speaker 1: will on them. Instead, I'm trying my best to be
Speaker 1: a coach, a guide, you know, I'm trying to get
Speaker 1: them over the top and work. Yes, I work from
Speaker 1: there and just sort of trying to figure out where
Speaker 1: they're at in the process. You know, I work with
Speaker 1: some people who are incredibly lyrical and so they don't
Speaker 1: need me in that end of it, and that's really
Speaker 1: my specialty is I'm pretty quick with a pen. But
Speaker 1: then you know what, then then I instantly read the
Speaker 1: room and I shift over to where the melodies sit
Speaker 1: and making sure the melodies are working and blah blah
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, making sure that conceptually tight. Other writers
Speaker 1: aren't particularly lyrical, or I'm getting them on a day
Speaker 1: that they're just burnt out, they have nothing, but they
Speaker 1: want to give it a go. And I'm coming in
Speaker 1: the room with two or three completely finished, fleshed out
Speaker 1: ideas before I didn't sit down with them, and I
Speaker 1: sing them to the artist because you know, I'm going
Speaker 1: to shoot my shot anyway I can. And that's landed
Speaker 1: some really successful songs too. There's no rhyme or reason
Speaker 1: to it. But the one thing I would say is
Speaker 1: these songs aren't written for me necessarily. There's inside jokes. Sure,
Speaker 1: you know they're you know, high hopes, panga disco. You
Speaker 1: know those verses are I wrote the verses on that song,
Speaker 1: and there's great co writers on that song across the board.
Speaker 1: Everybody did a great job. But you know, I wrote
Speaker 1: the verses and the verses in that song where in
Speaker 1: my head I made a through line between a dialogue
Speaker 1: that I have with my mom when I was very young,
Speaker 1: and then the second verse is me sort of giving
Speaker 1: my same interpretation of that dollar to my daughter or
Speaker 1: she was coming up and so so I tried to
Speaker 1: connect the generational divide because they never got to know
Speaker 1: each other. My mom passed, my daughter was so young,
Speaker 1: so I thought this was a way to sort of,
Speaker 1: you know, bring them together forever, and that that's why
Speaker 1: I wrote that so song, it's pretty heavy for me.
Speaker 1: And even though you hear it in sort of like
Speaker 1: this bombastic, sort of you know, bouncy number, at the
Speaker 1: core of it, I'd like to think there's a lot
Speaker 1: of heart because the message is very real.
Speaker 2: So well, I have to know what went through your
Speaker 2: mind when you weren't going to write necessarily a song
Speaker 2: with Ringo Star a Beatle, but you were going to
Speaker 2: pitch being a co writer with him. How does one
Speaker 2: even feel when they're ringing the doorbell at Ringo Star's
Speaker 2: house and you have to go in and make a
Speaker 2: pitch that he's going to work with you.
Speaker 1: So I'll go through. I'd love it.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: I'd love to tell you that there was a high
Speaker 1: degree of intimidation. But the strangest attribute I have beyond
Speaker 1: tenacity is and I think this, this is formed when
Speaker 1: I'm a kid, with being around Warhole and these worlds
Speaker 1: and you know, and spending my you know, working with
Speaker 1: Carol King in my twenties who really mentored me and
Speaker 1: helped me out, and Nile Rogers and Paul Williams and
Speaker 1: all these people who were these incredible beacons for me
Speaker 1: and sort of just guided my journey. I I'm rarely intimidated,
Speaker 1: and I think that's probably my greatest skill. It doesn't
Speaker 1: really matter who I walk in a room with. But
Speaker 1: I'm hard to shake. And I always say I'm sort
Speaker 1: of like something that crawls on your shower curtain. Try
Speaker 1: to wash it down, but it just it just doesn't
Speaker 1: it doesn't happen. I sort of stick. I'll stick it out.
Speaker 1: So I would say with Ringo, I'm excited, sure, massively
Speaker 1: excited everything you know, I mean chills, But the flip
Speaker 1: side was very focused and he grilled me. He grilled me,
Speaker 1: and he was tough, and he's very snarky, very funny,
Speaker 1: so witty, he's he's an incredible guy.
Speaker 2: And was your heart being out of your chest or
Speaker 2: you were fine?
Speaker 1: You were?
Speaker 3: You were?
Speaker 1: I was okay, I was okay. I was more star
Speaker 1: struck by you Lynn. Come on. So you know Ringo
Speaker 1: is so twenty twenty three, but I uh no, I
Speaker 1: I have to tell you, I uh I had a
Speaker 1: very measured take on it. I was excited. But the
Speaker 1: flip side was I was really hyper focused on having
Speaker 1: a song with Ringo because I had done songs with
Speaker 1: Mike g Love and the Beach Boys sing them live,
Speaker 1: and I have to say to be able to say
Speaker 1: I did something in the orbit of the Beach Boys
Speaker 1: and the Beatles, I'll take it. Yeah, you know, pretty cool,
Speaker 1: And so it was really about dialing it in. And
Speaker 1: you know, since then, I think I've done five songs
Speaker 1: of Ringos something like that, and it's always a blast.
Speaker 1: And he is this this beautiful fella who is in
Speaker 1: better physical shape than I am. And it's heartbreaking to
Speaker 1: watch because he's like bouncing up and down while I'm
Speaker 1: sort of slump slumped in the chair. So yeah, a
Speaker 1: little bueler sir tech sech search up buler BEUTLERU, guys,
Speaker 1: the guy's super talented.
Speaker 2: Well spanning your successful career, which is is pretty amazing.
Speaker 2: Is there one kis mid moment that stands out to
Speaker 2: you the most working with someone and if you could
Speaker 2: share what that is, I know you get that probably
Speaker 2: a lot. But in the song making process that you were.
Speaker 1: Well, I think the song that I it's the song
Speaker 1: that I have a weird, very very very deep emotional
Speaker 1: connection to is handclap by Fits in the Tantrums and
Speaker 1: it's truly rooted in the fact of tenacity. You know.
Speaker 1: I was a huge fan of the EP when they
Speaker 1: first dropped their first EP, and I thought money Grabber
Speaker 1: was the coolest thing ever. And you know, I googled them,
Speaker 1: I google fits and I realized we were born a
Speaker 1: couple months apart and just like us, like our generational
Speaker 1: connection was so deep. And I could tell that he
Speaker 1: was referencing you know, ABC and Smoky things like all
Speaker 1: these you know, records of the time, you know, and
Speaker 1: I felt like I've ever had a chance to get
Speaker 1: in a room with him I would I would hit
Speaker 1: it out of the park. And it took seven years
Speaker 1: between meeting him the first time to finally getting a session,
Speaker 1: and I had to work angles. And I have to
Speaker 1: say my buddy Kevin griff and one of my best friends,
Speaker 1: who's a better than Ezra. He made the connection, he
Speaker 1: said because Fits sang on our band of Merrymaker's Christmas record,
Speaker 1: and I when in five minutes with Fits, I knew
Speaker 1: I was going to write a hit. I felt it.
Speaker 1: I felt like we would write something very special together
Speaker 1: because we just there was such a shared affinity, but
Speaker 1: yet there were slight there were just like divergent paths
Speaker 1: musically that felt would be great. Like he's more of
Speaker 1: a pop guy. I would say, I'm more of like
Speaker 1: a disco or soul guy. And so we met in
Speaker 1: the middle and fused this strange song together. And it's
Speaker 1: a very strange song, but it's that one means the
Speaker 1: most to me because I really like I fought for it,
Speaker 1: and I don't know, for some reason, I think it
Speaker 1: just lives on more than the rest of the stuff.
Speaker 1: It feels like the one that I hear it every day,
Speaker 1: and that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2: What do you most proud of Sam regarding your music
Speaker 2: and your legacy.
Speaker 1: I'm proudest to the fact that I was able to
Speaker 1: spend my life making noise and there were so few
Speaker 1: other lanes for me as a human, and I didn't
Speaker 1: have any other interests. You know. I tell kids all
Speaker 1: the time. Whenever I meet a kid, you know, and
Speaker 1: they say, oh, how do I get into this business? Bubbah,
Speaker 1: I say the same thing. It's like, Look, if you
Speaker 1: ever wake up one morning and you have a strange
Speaker 1: fascination with, you know, arugula, and you think to yourself, God,
Speaker 1: I could market the world's greatest arugula. I can make
Speaker 1: a strain that's like hybrid arugular or something, and every
Speaker 1: Whole Foods and Trader Joe's will be all over it.
Speaker 1: Go make your damn arugula. Because this is brutal, and
Speaker 1: to do this with your life is uh. There's a
Speaker 1: level of masochism that people could never understand it. And
Speaker 1: so the fact that I survived thus far and I've
Speaker 1: been doing it this long and I am I still
Speaker 1: am excited every single day I wake up and you know,
Speaker 1: I'm like this weird, stunted man child. I'm like you know,
Speaker 1: I just every day, I just wake up and there's
Speaker 1: an idea and it's sort of emanating. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: figure out how to get it out of my head.
Speaker 1: And it's a puzzle. And these are like these strange puzzles.
Speaker 1: And I go for tons of walks in my town.
Speaker 1: People see me walking everywhere, and I think it's a
Speaker 1: little bit of a NodD visual, but you know, truly,
Speaker 1: I'm in my head all day long, just trying to
Speaker 1: crack the puzzle and put it down on paper. And
Speaker 1: if it never sees the lad to day, it's fine,
Speaker 1: but I have to get it out. And the fact
Speaker 1: that I was given the luxury to do this for
Speaker 1: this many years is it's incredible.
Speaker 2: What would you tell someone one piece of advice of
Speaker 2: all the great advice in sage wisdom that you've accumulated
Speaker 2: in this.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you I was blessed. I'm sure you were too.
Speaker 1: I can hear in your voice. I was blessed with
Speaker 1: supportive parents, right. I had parents and an infrastructure around
Speaker 1: me of people who were cheering for me as a human.
Speaker 1: And I was encouraged to color outside the lines. And
Speaker 1: I just feel like a lot of people who pack
Speaker 1: it in early don't have that support system. And it
Speaker 1: can be as simple as finishing a song and playing
Speaker 1: it for your friends and they diss it and or
Speaker 1: they just look away unenthused and it's soul crushing, right.
Speaker 1: Or you tell your parents you want to get it
Speaker 1: into the music business entertainment industry, and the look of
Speaker 1: horror on their faces because they don't understand how you
Speaker 1: won't be homeless. You know. The one thing I would
Speaker 1: say is if I could do it, anybody can do it.
Speaker 1: And I started out with minimal skills, like a creative
Speaker 1: kid with very suspect skills, and I put in the
Speaker 1: ten thousand hours, the glad Welly and hours, and I
Speaker 1: just kept going and going and going and harnessing and
Speaker 1: changing and changing the way I approached my work and
Speaker 1: changing genres and trying to find out where I fit
Speaker 1: into the musical landscape. And I believe anybody can do it.
Speaker 1: I just think you have to silence negative voices and
Speaker 1: just have a singular focus on the fact that you
Speaker 1: might just be great at something and you got to
Speaker 1: you got to play it through.
Speaker 2: So choose optimism that will that will get you through
Speaker 2: any most everything basic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, I don't want to sound like an
Speaker 1: Up with People record, but it's, uh, it's just choose.
Speaker 1: I'm such a glass half empty person with every but
Speaker 1: everything right in terms of I'm watching the Knicks last
Speaker 1: night and I'm thinking to myself, there's zero way that
Speaker 1: win this game. I'm just exasperating. I'm about to turn
Speaker 1: the channel and one of the greatest comebacks I've ever saying,
Speaker 1: I've always been that guy. I'm very negative. I think
Speaker 1: it's like very Jewish, self deprecating and just sort of
Speaker 1: having just be self aware enough to know that the
Speaker 1: movie usually ends bad. The flip side is pressed that
Speaker 1: with your art, with your art, believe that you can
Speaker 1: do it, and you can that.
Speaker 2: I've never heard that spin that you just put on
Speaker 2: that that was just amazing because I'm thinking to myself,
Speaker 2: where is this going? I mean, if he's negative, which
Speaker 2: I totally, I mean, this is the plight of my
Speaker 2: daily routine. It's just can you just see.
Speaker 1: The positive side of it?
Speaker 2: I do, But with everything else, pure optimism, everything that
Speaker 2: you want to know and learn, it's like one hundred
Speaker 2: percent optimistic.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just also another thing that's really important
Speaker 1: is stay in your generation. You know, I think about
Speaker 1: my mom, who was probably the sharpest cat I ever knew. Right,
Speaker 1: my mom was freakishly bright. But my mom had a
Speaker 1: fascination with Victorian era, you know, England, and I really
Speaker 1: think she wanted to live in Victorian era England. And
Speaker 1: I think she was crestfallen that that wasn't going to happen.
Speaker 1: And she was very late to the internet, right, she
Speaker 1: was very late to cell phones and all these things
Speaker 1: before she passed. You know, I've always I understood it
Speaker 1: and I got it. But the flip side was my
Speaker 1: tact is I'm want to stay up on things and
Speaker 1: I want to be on top of it. I'm taking
Speaker 1: an AI class this summer just to understand how people
Speaker 1: think and how it's going to impact, you know, creativity,
Speaker 1: et cetera, because I just I don't want to feel irrelevant,
Speaker 1: you know, I want to know that there are ways
Speaker 1: to implement tools and make great art any and as
Speaker 1: it evolves. And I think AI in our lifetime outside
Speaker 1: of the Internet, is the craziest thing we've ever encountered.
Speaker 1: I don't I think there are people who just don't
Speaker 1: understand what we're about to see and I'm sure there's
Speaker 1: a lot of negative with it, but there is some
Speaker 1: positive too.
Speaker 2: So just on that note, can I ask you one
Speaker 2: more question? Because I know I'm already overstaying my welcome
Speaker 2: coers The Beatles McCartney putting out the new song with
Speaker 2: Lennon on it through the advances of AI, How did
Speaker 2: you feel about that?
Speaker 1: Just curious once again, But you know, I'm not a purist.
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, I've heard a lot of
Speaker 1: songs recently of older artists who I feel like are
Speaker 1: using AI to you know, come up with something new
Speaker 1: and sort of reinvigorate it. I can kind of hear
Speaker 1: through it sometimes, and you know what, if it brings
Speaker 1: people joy? Who am I to? Who am I to
Speaker 1: rip it down? It's like, you know, I just I
Speaker 1: just think it's crazy that we have these you know,
Speaker 1: these uh, the abilities to do this, and the software
Speaker 1: I've been messing around with. It's insane. I enter in
Speaker 1: lyric prompts and very detailed lyric sheets and what comes
Speaker 1: out might be better than my melodic writing, and it
Speaker 1: eats me a little bit. But the flip side is
Speaker 1: I'm like, WHOA, that's pretty good. All right, so I
Speaker 1: can from this now, yeah, maybe exactly. That was six
Speaker 1: seconds so straight, so it's evolving out of a speed
Speaker 1: of it. I've never seen aything like it, but that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's a negative to me. It just feels like,
Speaker 1: you know, utilize it as a strength. People were scared,
Speaker 1: you know, drummers were scared of drum machines. Well you
Speaker 1: know what, people still record drummers. We've seen all of
Speaker 1: this and sure, this is crazier and the capabilities are endless,
Speaker 1: but I don't know, learn learn from it.
Speaker 2: Don't hide good advice, very good advice. Thanks Sam, thank
Speaker 2: you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you seriously, and anything you need, I'm here. But
Speaker 1: it hit me up. Okay, feel better, Thank you,