WEBVTT - Spider-Man (2002) | Archive

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<v Speaker 2>What kind of a show you guys putting on here today?

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<v Speaker 1>You're not interested in armed now? No, Look, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to do this thing. We're going to have a conversation.

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<v Speaker 3>Hey, film spotters.

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<v Speaker 2>It is time for a drop from the film Spotting archive.

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<v Speaker 2>And with Marvel's new Spider Man movie coming to theaters

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<v Speaker 2>and our top five Spider Man scenes dropping on Friday,

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<v Speaker 2>we decided to go into the archive and pull out

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<v Speaker 2>our twentieth anniversary Sacred Cow review of Sam Raimi's Spider

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<v Speaker 2>Man the two thousand and two movie. We pulled this

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<v Speaker 2>out from two two. Josh, Now, I know from talking

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<v Speaker 2>to you just before we started recording that you have

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<v Speaker 2>no recollection whatsoever.

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<v Speaker 3>Had this conversation I in.

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<v Speaker 1>Doing all my research and my processing and my remembering,

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<v Speaker 1>even pulling up my old reviews, No, so I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know what that says about this conversation. I'm sure it

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<v Speaker 1>was as brilliant as ever, and I'm just for some

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<v Speaker 1>reason it went through the seat of my brain. But

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<v Speaker 1>did you, however, did you listen to it as part

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<v Speaker 1>of your research too, to refresh yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>I did not listen to it. I did vaguely recall

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<v Speaker 2>us having the conversation. But here's how I knew that

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<v Speaker 2>you probably had no recollection of this conversation. Oh boy,

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<v Speaker 2>So we just taped the Friday show the top five

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<v Speaker 2>Spider Man scenes, and at no point did this conversation

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<v Speaker 2>come up. And that's only really relevant because I went

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<v Speaker 2>back and looked at my notes from this conversation because

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<v Speaker 2>there is at least one scene from Spider Man, as

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<v Speaker 2>you know, from this Spider Man on my list, and

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<v Speaker 2>so I wanted to see did I bring up this scene?

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<v Speaker 2>What did I say about it? As you as you do?

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<v Speaker 2>Turns out, as listeners are about to hear, turns out

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<v Speaker 2>that the conceit for this conversation that listeners are about

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<v Speaker 2>to hear was me talking about Raymy delivering iconic scenes

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<v Speaker 2>and me asking you for your top five from this

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<v Speaker 2>movie from this movie and so so I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>because I haven't really listened to this conversation either. But

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<v Speaker 2>it turns out that in my notes, the way my

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<v Speaker 2>notes for this movie are structured, I don't really have

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<v Speaker 2>any bullet points. I just have top five moments. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I have a top five moments from this film, and

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<v Speaker 2>my number one did turn out to be randomly, not surprisingly,

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<v Speaker 2>but randomly turned out to be the same number one

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<v Speaker 2>that is my top five Spider Man moment on Friday.

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<v Speaker 1>Whereas whereas there's a good chance I will on this

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<v Speaker 1>review people are about to hear contradict myself and the

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<v Speaker 1>part that I will make two days later.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it turns out a Spider Man top five.

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<v Speaker 2>It's probably in your notes somewhere in preparation show.

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<v Speaker 1>I should have looked there. That would have made a

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<v Speaker 1>Friday show a lot easier, but oh wow, you got

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<v Speaker 1>to put in the work at.

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<v Speaker 3>Them or more difficult.

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<v Speaker 2>Who knows, well that with that setup you can now

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<v Speaker 2>listen to our top five. Well, it's supposed to be

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<v Speaker 2>not a top five. It's supposed to be our Spider Man.

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<v Speaker 2>Conversation about Sam Raimi's film from two thousand and two,

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<v Speaker 2>upon its twentieth anniversary.

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<v Speaker 3>Here is that conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>From episode eight seventy two, and just a reminder that

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<v Speaker 2>as a Film Spotting family member, you can dip into

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<v Speaker 2>the archive and pull out conversations like this just at

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<v Speaker 2>your fingertips at any time you would like that.

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<v Speaker 1>How is that? Whatever it is, somebody asked to stop it.

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<v Speaker 3>It's great power comes great responsibility. This is my gift.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, it is my curs. How are you?

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<v Speaker 3>Who am I?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm spider Man.

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<v Speaker 2>When I was four or five, I was interviewed for

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<v Speaker 2>my mom's company newsletter. One of the questions was what

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<v Speaker 2>do you want to be when you grow up? No,

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<v Speaker 2>my answer was an astronaut, or policeman or fireman. I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to be spider Man. Sam Ramie spider Man didn't

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<v Speaker 2>send me running in search of my old red and

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<v Speaker 2>blue Spandex tights, but let's just say I thought about it.

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<v Speaker 2>That was how I opened my review of Ramie spider Man,

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<v Speaker 2>released this week. Back in two thousand and two, when

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<v Speaker 2>I was a grad student cutting my critical teeth at

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<v Speaker 2>the Daily Iowa. Fun fact, I'm pretty sure that spider

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<v Speaker 2>review concluded my two year.

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<v Speaker 3>Run at the d I.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's see if you can identify this one Josh as

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<v Speaker 2>someone who used to dress up in Spider Man under

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<v Speaker 2>rus and literally try to climb walls when I was

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<v Speaker 2>a kid. High praise I can give this high flying

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<v Speaker 2>adaptation from director Sam Raimi is to say it made

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<v Speaker 2>me want to be Spider Man again. Mm hmm.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm glad you said it so I don't have to.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the opening to your capsule review of Spider Man,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, and I'm tempted to suggest the connection proves

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<v Speaker 2>we were destined to do this show together, maybe except

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<v Speaker 2>for the fact that we could probably find I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know a few hundred thousand Gen X males who would

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<v Speaker 2>have started their reviews similarly. Nevertheless, clearly we were ready

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<v Speaker 2>for Rami and Spider Man. So were most moviegoers. We

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<v Speaker 2>had Blade An X Men and Tim Burton's Batman and

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<v Speaker 2>the Superman movies before that. But this was pre Sony

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<v Speaker 2>having to crank out a Spider movie every five years

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<v Speaker 2>or else relinquish the IP, pre MCU, pre DCEU, pre

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<v Speaker 2>anyone ever using the phrase cinematic universe at all. As

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<v Speaker 2>far as I can recall, the release also came just

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<v Speaker 2>eight months after nine to eleven, a teaser featured footage

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<v Speaker 2>of bank robbers cast in one of Spidey's webs spun

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<v Speaker 2>between the twin towers, and included a shot of the

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<v Speaker 2>towers reflected in the eyes of his mask. That footage

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<v Speaker 2>was pulled within a few days of the attacks. Watching

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<v Speaker 2>Willem Dafoe's Green Goblin streak across the Manhattan skyline and

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<v Speaker 2>throw bombs at a tall building hits different post nine

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<v Speaker 2>to eleven. Still same for the climactic action scene where

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<v Speaker 2>Toby Maguire's Wall Crawler forwarts the bad guy terrorist with

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<v Speaker 2>an assist from angry New Yorkers in Spidey's final swing

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<v Speaker 2>from the pole of an American flag waving gloriously atop

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<v Speaker 2>the Empire State Building. Was that spirit why Spider Man

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<v Speaker 2>was the biggest box office earner of its year, grossing

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<v Speaker 2>a full one hundred million more domestically than Star Wars

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<v Speaker 2>Episode two Attack of the Clones and was the sixth

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<v Speaker 2>highest grossing film overall at the time of its release.

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<v Speaker 2>Or was it simply because it's such a well made, rousing,

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<v Speaker 2>character driven action movie with no multa verses but a

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<v Speaker 2>multitude of memorable scenes. Looking back at my notes from

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<v Speaker 2>the Spider Man three review. On the show, I commented

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<v Speaker 2>that despite my strong appreciation for Spider Man Too, and

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<v Speaker 2>let's be clear, I know that it has some great sequences,

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<v Speaker 2>at the time, I couldn't immediately recall iconic scenes from

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<v Speaker 2>it the way I could with its predecessor, and the

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<v Speaker 2>handful of scenes I jotted down then were all among

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<v Speaker 2>my favorites on this rewatch. In the parlance of our

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<v Speaker 2>teenage kids, I'd love to hear your top five iconic

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<v Speaker 2>Spider Man moments and tell me which one had you

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<v Speaker 2>locked in your bedroom struggling to fit into those old

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<v Speaker 2>under ruths with knocks on the door and you saying

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<v Speaker 2>I'm exercising, I'm not dressed.

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<v Speaker 1>Debbie. Oh, if I still had those, I would be

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<v Speaker 1>so happy. Did you have those? Did you get in

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<v Speaker 1>on the under root crash? Of course I did. Okay, goods,

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<v Speaker 1>I did. I'm relieved to the Superman yep, I'm relieved

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<v Speaker 1>to hear that. I'm also relieved to hear that your

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<v Speaker 1>answer to your mom's company newsletter wasn't I foresee myself

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<v Speaker 1>managing a team of fifteen to twenty very confidently and competently.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean no, I'm so glad to hear there there

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<v Speaker 1>was a very young yeah superhero aspiring ad about there.

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<v Speaker 3>Before beaten down and jaded, yet.

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<v Speaker 1>Before he started, you know, claiming the right Stuff was

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<v Speaker 1>his best film? Or what's the other one? The garp

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<v Speaker 1>one you know formed me at age? For me? Actually, okay, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that's nice. I like picturing you that way. It's interesting

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<v Speaker 1>because I would say Burton's Batman. I was still you know,

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<v Speaker 1>in was it middle school or just before high school,

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<v Speaker 1>but saw that as a complete fan right and was

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<v Speaker 1>as excited about it as I could possibly be. Always

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<v Speaker 1>love spider Man more than Batman, but you know, like

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<v Speaker 1>Batman two as a kid, and then spider Man Raymie

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<v Speaker 1>spider Man in two thousand and two is where I

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<v Speaker 1>had to think about this somewhat professionally, right, theoretically, at

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<v Speaker 1>this point, this was my job, and it was my

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<v Speaker 1>job as writing for then Aperville Sun at that point.

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<v Speaker 1>And I remember sitting in the screen. It was at

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<v Speaker 1>Piper's Alley, which doesn't exist anymore as a movie theater

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<v Speaker 1>in Chicago, and there was another critic a couple rows

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<v Speaker 1>ahead of me who came probably a little older than us,

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<v Speaker 1>came wearing a Spider Man T shirt and as soon

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<v Speaker 1>as the credit started, just started rocking back and forth

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<v Speaker 1>in his seat. And I remember thinking to myself, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>still somewhat trying to figure this out, where's the line

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<v Speaker 1>of professionalism and personal enthusiasm and.

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<v Speaker 3>Mister Puris were so unhappy.

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<v Speaker 1>I just didn't know what to do with that, huh.

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<v Speaker 1>And I like to think maybe I've gotten past that

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<v Speaker 1>because my review, as you saw, even in that opening

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<v Speaker 1>that you quoted, was purely enthusiastic and tied into the

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<v Speaker 1>same sort of response, you know, And that is kind

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<v Speaker 1>of how I responded to it watching it again, This

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<v Speaker 1>movie is just so sweet, which I think I had forgotten.

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<v Speaker 1>It's very self contained in the way you've already talked

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<v Speaker 1>about there. Not only are there no multiverses, there's no

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<v Speaker 1>cinematic universes. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to

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<v Speaker 1>be better. But I did appreciate how this story really

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<v Speaker 1>it affected all those New Yorkers who were caught as bystanders.

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<v Speaker 1>But it really involves maybe seven to eight people right right,

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<v Speaker 1>Peter's family, Mary Jane, and then the Osbornes, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>pretty much who this It doesn't affect not only this

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<v Speaker 1>whole planet or universe or multiverses. It's just this group

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<v Speaker 1>of ten or less and there was something intimate about

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<v Speaker 1>that that I did appreciate. So I think this stands up.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, obviously it stood up at the time. Fascinating

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<v Speaker 1>for you to bring nine to eleven into it because

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<v Speaker 1>I had totally forgotten that context, and you're absolut right

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<v Speaker 1>that was on everybody's minds at the time. That's an

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<v Speaker 1>element to it as well. But I just think you're right.

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<v Speaker 1>It's really well made, hits all the right buttons that

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<v Speaker 1>we want a movie like this to hit, and is

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<v Speaker 1>still in ways that we can probably get into a

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<v Speaker 1>Sam Raimi movie, which is another thing I was excited

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<v Speaker 1>about at the time, you know. So I had, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>speaking of where I was, I had taken Debbi and

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<v Speaker 1>I had gone on a date to see Dark Man,

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<v Speaker 1>So I was, you know, that much of kind of

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<v Speaker 1>aware of Ramie at that point many years earlier. To

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<v Speaker 1>have him take on Spider Man was another reason for

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<v Speaker 1>me to be excited, and to see it come through

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<v Speaker 1>and have touches of him as a filmmaker. I really

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<v Speaker 1>fell for it. So I think at some point you

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<v Speaker 1>asked me about scenes. Do you want me to do?

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<v Speaker 1>You want me to jump into those two? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>Are you just ignoring my my query, my demand for

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<v Speaker 2>your five favorites.

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<v Speaker 1>No, let's do it. I mean I'm going to say

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<v Speaker 1>as this, you may not be surprised based on how

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<v Speaker 1>I set up or transitioned us here anytime. I'm Willem

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<v Speaker 1>Defoux cackles. I just love the enthusiasm. And he's not

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<v Speaker 1>above this part either, right, he's not kind of trying

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<v Speaker 1>to have it both ways where he's really committed, but

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<v Speaker 1>is also letting us know somehow that he's above this

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<v Speaker 1>comic book material. I think he's all in, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's a great villain performance. Another highlight scene, My

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<v Speaker 1>name is the Human Spider. Peter's insistence on that, rather

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<v Speaker 1>than Bruce Campbell's, you know, obviously the perfect name.

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<v Speaker 3>It's better. He insists, you're n the whole.

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<v Speaker 1>Rustling match sequence, minus that you know, homophobic quip that

0:12:57.525 --> 0:13:00.245
<v Speaker 1>still is in the script that certainly dates it in

0:13:00.245 --> 0:13:04.365
<v Speaker 1>a negative way. Number three would be this exchange you're

0:13:04.405 --> 0:13:09.485
<v Speaker 1>taller than you look. I hunch don't just the economy

0:13:09.885 --> 0:13:12.765
<v Speaker 1>of that, How much work do those three lines do

0:13:13.285 --> 0:13:17.445
<v Speaker 1>David Cupp screenwriter. Of course. Here number two, the whole

0:13:17.564 --> 0:13:20.564
<v Speaker 1>trying out his powers sequence, and this is the one

0:13:20.564 --> 0:13:23.205
<v Speaker 1>where it was like, oh man, am I wearing my

0:13:23.285 --> 0:13:25.485
<v Speaker 1>under ruts? Like I might be wearing my under ruths

0:13:25.525 --> 0:13:30.445
<v Speaker 1>still right, just the Maguire's enthusiasm and going back to

0:13:30.525 --> 0:13:33.844
<v Speaker 1>Rami's camera. You know, Raymie has always had I think

0:13:33.925 --> 0:13:35.964
<v Speaker 1>we you know, we talked about Evil Dead at some

0:13:36.045 --> 0:13:39.445
<v Speaker 1>point on the show, maybe for a Halloween themed episode,

0:13:39.684 --> 0:13:42.285
<v Speaker 1>and I was a little cooler on it that most

0:13:42.285 --> 0:13:44.565
<v Speaker 1>people are just that the camera always had to be

0:13:44.605 --> 0:13:47.085
<v Speaker 1>doing something. And what I like about Spider Man is

0:13:47.085 --> 0:13:49.645
<v Speaker 1>that he chooses the right moments for the camera to

0:13:49.645 --> 0:13:51.965
<v Speaker 1>do something. And that whole sequence is where you get it.

0:13:52.525 --> 0:13:54.445
<v Speaker 1>And then I'll just say it and we can dive

0:13:54.485 --> 0:13:56.725
<v Speaker 1>into it later. I want to hear your scenes as well.

0:13:56.725 --> 0:13:58.485
<v Speaker 1>But the upside Down kiss, that's number one.

0:13:58.965 --> 0:14:02.965
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So the last two you mentioned are my top two,

0:14:03.365 --> 0:14:06.165
<v Speaker 2>and I have them just in reverse order. I'm going

0:14:06.205 --> 0:14:09.005
<v Speaker 2>with the kiss number two, the upside down kiss in

0:14:09.005 --> 0:14:11.605
<v Speaker 2>the rain, and then number one discovering his powers, and

0:14:11.645 --> 0:14:14.045
<v Speaker 2>we can get into those a little more. I think

0:14:14.205 --> 0:14:17.525
<v Speaker 2>I want to say up front here that We're going

0:14:17.605 --> 0:14:20.285
<v Speaker 2>to be pretty comfortable spoiling this movie. We're going to

0:14:20.325 --> 0:14:24.125
<v Speaker 2>assume that mo of you listening have seen this film,

0:14:24.365 --> 0:14:28.325
<v Speaker 2>and if you haven't, I'm not going to say ninety

0:14:28.485 --> 0:14:30.645
<v Speaker 2>percent of our review is going to be spoilers. But

0:14:31.125 --> 0:14:33.925
<v Speaker 2>still you should maybe skip ahead until you have actually

0:14:33.965 --> 0:14:36.525
<v Speaker 2>seen this movie. So do you want me to just

0:14:36.565 --> 0:14:37.885
<v Speaker 2>go in order? You want me to give you five

0:14:38.045 --> 0:14:40.565
<v Speaker 2>through three? For me run to mention them, you didn't

0:14:40.565 --> 0:14:43.325
<v Speaker 2>mention them, and they all get it. Different aspects of

0:14:43.605 --> 0:14:49.045
<v Speaker 2>the film that I really appreciate. My number five, and

0:14:49.085 --> 0:14:54.125
<v Speaker 2>this is one that you will not find on any

0:14:54.285 --> 0:14:56.685
<v Speaker 2>list out there of the best Spider Man scenes ever.

0:14:57.045 --> 0:15:01.805
<v Speaker 2>But on Rewatch just made me cackle almost the way

0:15:02.205 --> 0:15:05.845
<v Speaker 2>Willem Defoe cackles as the Green Goblin. It's the Thanksgiving

0:15:05.925 --> 0:15:09.765
<v Speaker 2>scene where he's about to cut into the turkey, but

0:15:09.805 --> 0:15:12.325
<v Speaker 2>then Aunt may sets down that casse role or whatever,

0:15:12.725 --> 0:15:18.285
<v Speaker 2>and he can't help himself. Norman Osborne reaches his finger

0:15:18.365 --> 0:15:21.605
<v Speaker 2>in to get a bite before it's served. Oh Aunt

0:15:21.685 --> 0:15:25.685
<v Speaker 2>may admonishes him. So Aunt may admonishing an ornery Osborne

0:15:26.285 --> 0:15:28.565
<v Speaker 2>is my number five and I love it so much

0:15:28.645 --> 0:15:34.245
<v Speaker 2>because of Dafoe's response. The way he looks at her,

0:15:34.605 --> 0:15:40.125
<v Speaker 2>which is with that devilish grin that suggests, not only

0:15:40.165 --> 0:15:42.405
<v Speaker 2>am I a little bit unhappy that you did that,

0:15:42.645 --> 0:15:46.365
<v Speaker 2>I actually wanna jam this knife into it right now,

0:15:46.605 --> 0:15:49.245
<v Speaker 2>Like that is exactly what he is thinking at that moment,

0:15:49.445 --> 0:15:53.445
<v Speaker 2>and it takes everything he has within him playing the

0:15:53.525 --> 0:15:57.565
<v Speaker 2>normal Norman to restrain himself and not do it. And

0:15:57.605 --> 0:16:01.005
<v Speaker 2>the way Ramy lingers on that, so we have to

0:16:01.085 --> 0:16:02.885
<v Speaker 2>be in that space. And Aunt May is even kind

0:16:02.885 --> 0:16:05.165
<v Speaker 2>of looking at him. Rosemary Harras very good performance here

0:16:05.205 --> 0:16:08.005
<v Speaker 2>as well, is looking at him and continues to kind

0:16:08.005 --> 0:16:11.285
<v Speaker 2>of talk almost like this is a joke, right, but

0:16:11.365 --> 0:16:14.605
<v Speaker 2>he doesn't really look like he's joking. And I think

0:16:14.605 --> 0:16:16.725
<v Speaker 2>that scene is fantastic, and I think it does get

0:16:16.765 --> 0:16:20.925
<v Speaker 2>at how good Dafoe is in this film overall. Maybe

0:16:21.125 --> 0:16:23.765
<v Speaker 2>tangent just for a second. You mentioned Ramie and you

0:16:23.805 --> 0:16:26.485
<v Speaker 2>were excited about that at the time. I don't know

0:16:27.245 --> 0:16:30.845
<v Speaker 2>if I was a good enough Cinophile in two thousand

0:16:30.885 --> 0:16:33.205
<v Speaker 2>and two to really think in those terms. In fact,

0:16:33.325 --> 0:16:35.125
<v Speaker 2>I know I wasn't because I went back and looked

0:16:35.125 --> 0:16:38.485
<v Speaker 2>at my review and I at least admitted that, you know,

0:16:38.525 --> 0:16:42.805
<v Speaker 2>I had seen the Evil Dead Ones but mostly watched

0:16:42.805 --> 0:16:46.005
<v Speaker 2>it through my hands because it scared me so much

0:16:46.045 --> 0:16:48.765
<v Speaker 2>as a junior high kid, and I definitely didn't feel

0:16:48.805 --> 0:16:51.925
<v Speaker 2>like I could speak in any terms about Rami as

0:16:51.925 --> 0:16:53.525
<v Speaker 2>an O tour, so that was something that was lost

0:16:53.565 --> 0:16:55.885
<v Speaker 2>on me completely back in O two, and this time

0:16:55.925 --> 0:16:59.645
<v Speaker 2>you could see some of those horror elements really come through,

0:16:59.885 --> 0:17:03.365
<v Speaker 2>including in those green Goblin scenes where he is by

0:17:03.485 --> 0:17:05.044
<v Speaker 2>himself talking to himself.

0:17:05.085 --> 0:17:07.205
<v Speaker 3>Those are legitimately.

0:17:06.525 --> 0:17:10.085
<v Speaker 2>Creepy, and it takes an actor of Defoe's caliber to

0:17:10.845 --> 0:17:13.845
<v Speaker 2>make them work and to make them as sinister and

0:17:13.885 --> 0:17:17.325
<v Speaker 2>creepy as they actually are. I also really liked that scene, Josh,

0:17:17.365 --> 0:17:20.165
<v Speaker 2>because that moment with aunt May, and it closes with

0:17:20.205 --> 0:17:26.045
<v Speaker 2>an exchange between Harry and Kirsten Dunts Mary Jane as well.

0:17:26.565 --> 0:17:31.645
<v Speaker 2>It gets at something this film is dealing with, which

0:17:31.725 --> 0:17:36.285
<v Speaker 2>is masculinity, something that definitely wasn't a prism I was

0:17:36.325 --> 0:17:37.365
<v Speaker 2>watching movies.

0:17:37.085 --> 0:17:38.445
<v Speaker 3>Through twenty years ago.

0:17:38.805 --> 0:17:42.925
<v Speaker 2>But that look he gives Aunt May is a look

0:17:42.925 --> 0:17:45.005
<v Speaker 2>he would give anybody who's sort of standing in his

0:17:45.045 --> 0:17:48.245
<v Speaker 2>way of anything, but I think it's heightened by the

0:17:48.285 --> 0:17:52.565
<v Speaker 2>fact that she's a woman. Thanks for sticking up for me, Harry.

0:17:52.725 --> 0:17:57.005
<v Speaker 3>You heard everyone heard that creep. Creep is my father.

0:17:57.205 --> 0:17:59.205
<v Speaker 3>All right, If I'm lucky, I'll become half of what

0:17:59.245 --> 0:17:59.605
<v Speaker 3>he is.

0:17:59.925 --> 0:18:02.325
<v Speaker 2>So just keep your mouth shut about stuff you don't understand.

0:18:02.565 --> 0:18:08.325
<v Speaker 1>Harry awespored very fair to call James Franco's Harry toxic.

0:18:08.685 --> 0:18:13.165
<v Speaker 1>Think how about when he's approving MJ's dress for meeting

0:18:13.165 --> 0:18:16.565
<v Speaker 1>his father, worried about, you know, if he'll find her pretty. Yeah,

0:18:16.605 --> 0:18:18.525
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of nasty stuff like this in here.

0:18:18.725 --> 0:18:19.005
<v Speaker 3>There is.

0:18:19.045 --> 0:18:21.125
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the movie is filled with bad guys. And

0:18:21.165 --> 0:18:23.925
<v Speaker 2>I don't mean bad guys like villains, though there's villains

0:18:23.925 --> 0:18:29.365
<v Speaker 2>here too. It's full of bad guys doing bad things.

0:18:29.765 --> 0:18:33.245
<v Speaker 2>My number four is here's where we really get into spoilers.

0:18:33.285 --> 0:18:37.685
<v Speaker 2>It's the end or that scene right before the final

0:18:38.285 --> 0:18:41.925
<v Speaker 2>swing and the Empire State Building shot. It's the scene

0:18:41.925 --> 0:18:48.245
<v Speaker 2>at the cemetery for Norman Osborne, and it's the choice

0:18:48.285 --> 0:18:52.165
<v Speaker 2>Peter makes, which I of course completely remembered. I knew

0:18:52.165 --> 0:18:55.805
<v Speaker 2>that that's how it ended, with this kind of crushing Oh,

0:18:55.885 --> 0:18:58.925
<v Speaker 2>he wants her so badly and now she wants him

0:18:58.965 --> 0:19:02.325
<v Speaker 2>so badly, And is he actually going to say no?

0:19:02.725 --> 0:19:05.125
<v Speaker 2>Is he actually going to do what he thinks he

0:19:05.205 --> 0:19:08.685
<v Speaker 2>has to do, accepting his role, accepting his responsibility, and

0:19:08.725 --> 0:19:10.645
<v Speaker 2>he's going to give up on happiness, he's going to

0:19:10.685 --> 0:19:13.765
<v Speaker 2>give up on love, give up on MJ.

0:19:14.445 --> 0:19:16.365
<v Speaker 3>And he does. And when he.

0:19:16.285 --> 0:19:19.165
<v Speaker 2>Does, because we're invested enough in this story, in these characters,

0:19:19.445 --> 0:19:23.205
<v Speaker 2>when he does it, it crushes you. But what I forgot

0:19:23.605 --> 0:19:26.925
<v Speaker 2>is that touch as he walks away, where we get

0:19:27.165 --> 0:19:32.805
<v Speaker 2>MJ's recognition that Peter is Spider Man. And that's a

0:19:32.885 --> 0:19:38.085
<v Speaker 2>case of the screenplay and the direction having it both ways,

0:19:38.245 --> 0:19:40.885
<v Speaker 2>but I think in a really good successful way.

0:19:41.085 --> 0:19:43.885
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, we and all set up by that kiss, right.

0:19:43.805 --> 0:19:44.205
<v Speaker 3>That's it.

0:19:44.405 --> 0:19:48.245
<v Speaker 2>We understand his sacrifice, and since we see the movie

0:19:48.325 --> 0:19:52.285
<v Speaker 2>through his eyes, we feel the weight of it, like

0:19:52.365 --> 0:19:56.125
<v Speaker 2>we know something Spider Man doesn't, and he will continue

0:19:56.205 --> 0:19:59.605
<v Speaker 2>to go through life into that second film not knowing

0:19:59.925 --> 0:20:03.205
<v Speaker 2>what she knows, and so we'll continue to have that

0:20:03.325 --> 0:20:05.965
<v Speaker 2>hanging over him. But the fact that we as an

0:20:06.005 --> 0:20:09.885
<v Speaker 2>audience know that she really knows somehow does soften it

0:20:10.085 --> 0:20:12.445
<v Speaker 2>while also putting it back on her.

0:20:12.365 --> 0:20:12.805
<v Speaker 3>In a way.

0:20:12.925 --> 0:20:15.845
<v Speaker 2>She has to maintain the secret and she has to

0:20:15.845 --> 0:20:18.765
<v Speaker 2>wrestle with why he's making that decision. So I love

0:20:18.845 --> 0:20:22.805
<v Speaker 2>that that choice and specifically MJ's recognition, So then I'll

0:20:22.805 --> 0:20:26.885
<v Speaker 2>get to here, the last one before the two you mentioned.

0:20:27.445 --> 0:20:33.125
<v Speaker 2>I think that that bridge fight showdown is really spectacular,

0:20:33.365 --> 0:20:36.725
<v Speaker 2>and it's another choice right where Spider Man has to

0:20:36.725 --> 0:20:38.445
<v Speaker 2>make one and he gets to have it both ways.

0:20:38.485 --> 0:20:42.845
<v Speaker 2>He successfully again manages to save both all of those

0:20:42.965 --> 0:20:46.245
<v Speaker 2>kids and all of those New Yorkers on the cable car,

0:20:46.485 --> 0:20:50.165
<v Speaker 2>and he also gets to save MJ. But it's a

0:20:50.205 --> 0:20:53.965
<v Speaker 2>moment that only just has great action, and despite there

0:20:54.045 --> 0:20:58.965
<v Speaker 2>clearly being some CGI, this whole film uses practical effects

0:20:58.965 --> 0:21:02.325
<v Speaker 2>and stunts to such good effects that nothing really about

0:21:02.325 --> 0:21:06.445
<v Speaker 2>that sequence really feels false or artificial at all, and

0:21:06.485 --> 0:21:09.845
<v Speaker 2>it keeps it contained. It's not just about chaos in

0:21:09.925 --> 0:21:13.925
<v Speaker 2>destruction like these movies so often devolve into. And what

0:21:13.965 --> 0:21:19.805
<v Speaker 2>I think that sequence also encapsulates is the DNA of

0:21:20.645 --> 0:21:23.925
<v Speaker 2>super hero movies that came before it and that came

0:21:23.965 --> 0:21:27.365
<v Speaker 2>after it. It it gets it right. It's all there

0:21:27.365 --> 0:21:30.765
<v Speaker 2>on the screen where I'm sure most people were watching

0:21:30.765 --> 0:21:35.565
<v Speaker 2>it and hearing his line where Defoe says something like,

0:21:35.605 --> 0:21:37.565
<v Speaker 2>you know, if you're a hero, you're a good person,

0:21:37.965 --> 0:21:40.765
<v Speaker 2>you're moral. At some point a lunatic is going to

0:21:40.805 --> 0:21:43.405
<v Speaker 2>force you into making a difficult choice. And I'm thinking

0:21:43.485 --> 0:21:46.125
<v Speaker 2>about Heath Ledgers, The Joker and The Dark Knight and

0:21:46.165 --> 0:21:49.965
<v Speaker 2>the Sure you Know, and I feel like that DNA,

0:21:50.045 --> 0:21:53.605
<v Speaker 2>that blueprint, as I said, is there for those movies

0:21:53.645 --> 0:21:55.845
<v Speaker 2>that came but also many of those ones that came before.

0:21:55.925 --> 0:22:00.525
<v Speaker 2>It has the sensibility of a Donner Superman and of

0:22:00.525 --> 0:22:04.245
<v Speaker 2>Burton's Batman at times, versus going for total realism. There

0:22:04.285 --> 0:22:06.685
<v Speaker 2>is a sense of humor, there is a likeness to it,

0:22:06.725 --> 0:22:09.685
<v Speaker 2>a sweetness. The camp factor is in play in some

0:22:09.765 --> 0:22:12.205
<v Speaker 2>scenes and just the right amount, I would say. And

0:22:12.245 --> 0:22:15.845
<v Speaker 2>while that's the big showdown that any of these action

0:22:15.925 --> 0:22:18.045
<v Speaker 2>movies are leading to, how about the fact that the

0:22:18.125 --> 0:22:23.445
<v Speaker 2>final brawl is just that it's a mono almano fight between.

0:22:23.165 --> 0:22:26.365
<v Speaker 3>Two characters where you have a reveal.

0:22:26.805 --> 0:22:29.885
<v Speaker 2>You know that Peter is now having to be responsible for,

0:22:30.045 --> 0:22:32.565
<v Speaker 2>even though he doesn't actually committed himself, be responsible for

0:22:32.725 --> 0:22:37.565
<v Speaker 2>the death of a man he actually admires. And it's

0:22:37.685 --> 0:22:41.165
<v Speaker 2>just hand to hand combat. It's not at all four

0:22:41.245 --> 0:22:46.365
<v Speaker 2>thousand characters on screen and you're trying to keep up

0:22:46.485 --> 0:22:48.685
<v Speaker 2>with the action and you feel it. You feel the

0:22:48.725 --> 0:22:51.365
<v Speaker 2>intensity of that fight and the intimacy of it.

0:22:53.165 --> 0:22:55.445
<v Speaker 1>If I prefer the one that you made as your pick,

0:22:55.485 --> 0:22:58.565
<v Speaker 1>which I think is right. It's probably because it's free

0:22:58.845 --> 0:23:00.965
<v Speaker 1>of the sort of I mean the thing I talk

0:23:01.005 --> 0:23:04.165
<v Speaker 1>about when it comes to the MCU films, the punch plosions, right,

0:23:04.205 --> 0:23:06.925
<v Speaker 1>they're punching each other through walls and that mono amano

0:23:06.965 --> 0:23:08.845
<v Speaker 1>and I agree with you that it's personal and so

0:23:08.885 --> 0:23:11.125
<v Speaker 1>it works on that level. But what I really like

0:23:11.165 --> 0:23:14.445
<v Speaker 1>about your pick sequence on the bridge is that it's

0:23:14.485 --> 0:23:20.125
<v Speaker 1>a confrontation, but it's more about acrobatics and the choices

0:23:20.445 --> 0:23:22.245
<v Speaker 1>you're talking about and is he going to be able

0:23:22.285 --> 0:23:23.685
<v Speaker 1>to hang on to this? Is he going to be

0:23:23.725 --> 0:23:27.605
<v Speaker 1>able to spin around you know quickly enough? Those are

0:23:27.645 --> 0:23:30.525
<v Speaker 1>the things that we're worried about, not really how hard

0:23:30.605 --> 0:23:32.845
<v Speaker 1>is this next punch going to be? Okay? How hard

0:23:32.885 --> 0:23:35.005
<v Speaker 1>is the next punch going to be? Okay? How hard

0:23:35.045 --> 0:23:37.405
<v Speaker 1>is the next punch? Gon? You know, that's where a

0:23:37.445 --> 0:23:39.965
<v Speaker 1>lot of Superhero and I would say more the DCEU

0:23:40.005 --> 0:23:45.045
<v Speaker 1>films actually had this way where we're just more invested

0:23:45.245 --> 0:23:48.725
<v Speaker 1>in the brute strength, and that sequence you picked is

0:23:48.765 --> 0:23:51.005
<v Speaker 1>about so many other things, which is why I think

0:23:51.045 --> 0:23:51.885
<v Speaker 1>it's such a highlight.

0:23:52.245 --> 0:23:53.125
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I agree.

0:23:53.165 --> 0:23:55.845
<v Speaker 2>So then let's talk a little bit more about the

0:23:55.885 --> 0:23:58.285
<v Speaker 2>two scenes you mentioned that are a top my list

0:23:58.325 --> 0:24:01.725
<v Speaker 2>as well, because that upside down kiss in the rain

0:24:01.845 --> 0:24:05.285
<v Speaker 2>is probably the most iconic moment from this film, and

0:24:06.085 --> 0:24:11.085
<v Speaker 2>for good reason. It's enjoyable on some level cinematically the

0:24:11.125 --> 0:24:14.045
<v Speaker 2>same way all of these scenes we're discussing are, but

0:24:14.725 --> 0:24:18.445
<v Speaker 2>in terms of what that scene expresses about what works

0:24:18.485 --> 0:24:22.005
<v Speaker 2>about this film overall. Yes, there is this sweetness that

0:24:22.045 --> 0:24:26.485
<v Speaker 2>we've mentioned, the wholesomeness and innocence of this film overall.

0:24:26.925 --> 0:24:31.965
<v Speaker 2>But think about this film and that relationship in comparison

0:24:32.405 --> 0:24:38.285
<v Speaker 2>to the superhero movies we get today that are so well,

0:24:38.285 --> 0:24:42.525
<v Speaker 2>they're not only sexless, but they don't express anything that

0:24:42.725 --> 0:24:47.325
<v Speaker 2>even resembles any sexual heat. There is no sensuality to

0:24:47.525 --> 0:24:52.325
<v Speaker 2>these films whatsoever. And here we absolutely get it. It

0:24:52.925 --> 0:24:58.045
<v Speaker 2>doesn't shy away from Kirsten Dunn's character playing MJ as

0:24:58.405 --> 0:25:01.165
<v Speaker 2>probably the quote unquote hottest girl in school, and in

0:25:01.205 --> 0:25:03.365
<v Speaker 2>a way that doesn't make it to this male anyway

0:25:03.405 --> 0:25:07.885
<v Speaker 2>feel too male gazy. You know, she's thirsting for Spider Man,

0:25:08.445 --> 0:25:11.365
<v Speaker 2>she makes the moves, she makes the move with Peter.

0:25:12.045 --> 0:25:15.285
<v Speaker 2>She's in control and back to the masculinity point when

0:25:15.325 --> 0:25:20.485
<v Speaker 2>she's mistreated by Harry, when she hears the conversation between

0:25:20.525 --> 0:25:24.645
<v Speaker 2>Harry and Norman and he doesn't defend her at all.

0:25:25.045 --> 0:25:28.565
<v Speaker 2>She calls him out on it. But there's sensuality in

0:25:28.605 --> 0:25:32.805
<v Speaker 2>the exchange you mentioned that line. That's all subtext for

0:25:33.485 --> 0:25:39.765
<v Speaker 2>the actual heat that is starting to emerge between these

0:25:39.805 --> 0:25:42.405
<v Speaker 2>two people. That great bit of dialogue you mentioned where

0:25:42.445 --> 0:25:45.005
<v Speaker 2>he says that he hunches and she tells him not to.

0:25:45.405 --> 0:25:48.885
<v Speaker 2>You know what's starting to come through there. And then

0:25:49.005 --> 0:25:52.885
<v Speaker 2>in that kiss, it's a hot kiss. We get nothing

0:25:52.965 --> 0:25:55.965
<v Speaker 2>like that any other superhero movie of recent vintage I

0:25:55.965 --> 0:25:56.485
<v Speaker 2>can think of.

0:25:56.485 --> 0:25:59.925
<v Speaker 1>Josh, Well, Adam, that's because you missed the eternals Where

0:26:00.125 --> 0:26:02.205
<v Speaker 1>or just eternals? I think I should say where, you

0:26:02.245 --> 0:26:05.565
<v Speaker 1>know Marvel really really moved into that. No, I'm just joking.

0:26:06.045 --> 0:26:08.325
<v Speaker 1>There is a sex scene, but it is kind of

0:26:08.565 --> 0:26:12.845
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't really work. Yes, you're right about the hotness

0:26:12.885 --> 0:26:16.285
<v Speaker 1>of it, and it's something that I wondered watching at

0:26:16.285 --> 0:26:19.805
<v Speaker 1>this time, is if this came from a comic book,

0:26:19.845 --> 0:26:22.285
<v Speaker 1>you know, was this an image that was well known

0:26:22.805 --> 0:26:25.045
<v Speaker 1>to Spider Man fans? Was it invented for the movie?

0:26:25.085 --> 0:26:27.125
<v Speaker 1>Was it in the script? So did a little googling,

0:26:27.165 --> 0:26:29.765
<v Speaker 1>and actually the Ringer just published something today I was

0:26:29.805 --> 0:26:33.165
<v Speaker 1>reading at lunch, so this was perfect works out great

0:26:33.165 --> 0:26:36.765
<v Speaker 1>for us. It's by Jake kring Screefles Shriefoles. Not sure

0:26:36.765 --> 0:26:39.445
<v Speaker 1>how to pronounce that, but basically when Mary Jane kiss

0:26:39.485 --> 0:26:41.885
<v Speaker 1>Spider Man is what it's titled. We'll link to it

0:26:41.925 --> 0:26:43.965
<v Speaker 1>in the show notes because there's so many great details here,

0:26:43.965 --> 0:26:47.165
<v Speaker 1>but just briefly, turns out, the basic idea came from

0:26:47.285 --> 0:26:50.685
<v Speaker 1>Doug Leffler, who was the movie's second unit director and

0:26:50.845 --> 0:26:55.365
<v Speaker 1>storyboard artist. He had stage scenes with characters upside down

0:26:55.405 --> 0:26:58.285
<v Speaker 1>in his previous work as a TV director, so not

0:26:58.325 --> 0:27:01.765
<v Speaker 1>necessarily kisses, but just this idea of having two characters

0:27:01.765 --> 0:27:04.765
<v Speaker 1>in the frame, one of them upside down. So Leffler

0:27:05.005 --> 0:27:07.645
<v Speaker 1>presented some sketches to Ramy Raymie loved it, and then

0:27:07.925 --> 0:27:11.485
<v Speaker 1>producer Laura Ziskin actually is the one who suggested the

0:27:11.485 --> 0:27:15.045
<v Speaker 1>crucial element of having MJ pulled down his mask just

0:27:15.165 --> 0:27:18.485
<v Speaker 1>enough to reveal the lips. So all of that comes

0:27:18.525 --> 0:27:22.085
<v Speaker 1>together to make this moment that I agree is legitimately iconic,

0:27:22.245 --> 0:27:24.485
<v Speaker 1>and again we'll link to that in the show notes

0:27:24.525 --> 0:27:28.765
<v Speaker 1>on the Ringer, but it's wonderful in so many ways.

0:27:28.765 --> 0:27:32.245
<v Speaker 1>The ones you described. I like how it just uses

0:27:32.285 --> 0:27:35.645
<v Speaker 1>the mask and you can sense that it's a real mask.

0:27:35.845 --> 0:27:39.285
<v Speaker 1>You know, there's no cgi hear either on his face.

0:27:39.365 --> 0:27:41.605
<v Speaker 1>It's something that is actually wet that has to be

0:27:41.645 --> 0:27:44.085
<v Speaker 1>pulled down. I think that adds a lot to it.

0:27:45.485 --> 0:27:48.045
<v Speaker 1>Going back to my Neighborville Sun review, you know, I'm

0:27:48.085 --> 0:27:51.725
<v Speaker 1>skeptical about puns, Adam, but I did pull one out.

0:27:51.805 --> 0:27:53.405
<v Speaker 1>I think I think this was me might have been

0:27:53.405 --> 0:27:56.605
<v Speaker 1>our great JJ are great copied desk chief, but swinging

0:27:56.645 --> 0:27:59.085
<v Speaker 1>in the rain not bad? Right? The headline for my

0:27:59.165 --> 0:28:01.485
<v Speaker 1>review in two thousand and two. You pretty proud of me.

0:28:01.525 --> 0:28:04.205
<v Speaker 3>You're okay with puns and titles, right or headlines?

0:28:04.285 --> 0:28:07.485
<v Speaker 1>Titles and headlines, that's what you save them for. You

0:28:07.565 --> 0:28:09.125
<v Speaker 1>have a knack for getting in trouble.

0:28:09.965 --> 0:28:12.685
<v Speaker 3>You have a knack for saving my life. I think

0:28:12.725 --> 0:28:15.845
<v Speaker 3>I have a superhero stock I was in the neighborhood.

0:28:18.205 --> 0:28:20.125
<v Speaker 3>You are amazing.

0:28:21.685 --> 0:28:27.685
<v Speaker 2>Some people don't think so, but you are nice to.

0:28:27.685 --> 0:28:28.285
<v Speaker 1>Have a fan.

0:28:29.325 --> 0:28:31.005
<v Speaker 3>Do you want to get to say thank you this time?

0:28:33.525 --> 0:28:33.805
<v Speaker 1>Wait?

0:28:35.605 --> 0:28:35.685
<v Speaker 2>So?

0:28:35.885 --> 0:28:38.285
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this is a wonderful moment and it makes me

0:28:38.285 --> 0:28:40.365
<v Speaker 1>think of a question. I want to get your take

0:28:40.405 --> 0:28:42.085
<v Speaker 1>on do you think it was smart? It sounds like

0:28:42.125 --> 0:28:43.805
<v Speaker 1>you do, and maybe you don't see it this way,

0:28:44.285 --> 0:28:47.045
<v Speaker 1>but for this Spider Man to frame itself first and

0:28:47.125 --> 0:28:50.685
<v Speaker 1>foremost as a romance, so rather than an action movie,

0:28:51.125 --> 0:28:53.525
<v Speaker 1>rather even than an origin story. You know, you have

0:28:53.605 --> 0:28:56.725
<v Speaker 1>that opening voiceover, we're told, this is about a girl.

0:28:57.085 --> 0:28:59.565
<v Speaker 1>That's what this is about. We get so many scenes

0:28:59.645 --> 0:29:03.405
<v Speaker 1>to their developing relationship in chemistry. Sounds like you're with me,

0:29:03.565 --> 0:29:06.645
<v Speaker 1>agreeing that Maguire and Dunst are very good, especially together.

0:29:07.285 --> 0:29:10.045
<v Speaker 1>And you already talked about that noteed ends on. It's

0:29:10.085 --> 0:29:13.445
<v Speaker 1>all about she doesn't know, but she does, and she

0:29:13.605 --> 0:29:16.965
<v Speaker 1>knows that because of the kiss. So so you're with me.

0:29:17.045 --> 0:29:18.685
<v Speaker 1>It sounds like that that was a good moves to

0:29:18.725 --> 0:29:19.605
<v Speaker 1>kind of frame it that way.

0:29:20.405 --> 0:29:23.285
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I I think it's what ultimately does make

0:29:23.325 --> 0:29:26.045
<v Speaker 2>the movie special. It's why we're still talking about it

0:29:26.045 --> 0:29:29.325
<v Speaker 2>twenty years later. It's not because it gets the action right,

0:29:29.365 --> 0:29:31.925
<v Speaker 2>though that's part of it. It's not that it's fun

0:29:32.165 --> 0:29:35.725
<v Speaker 2>and all of these elements that we've been discussing, it's

0:29:35.765 --> 0:29:37.965
<v Speaker 2>part of it. But I think really at its core,

0:29:38.005 --> 0:29:40.805
<v Speaker 2>it's because we respond to those characters so much and

0:29:40.845 --> 0:29:44.285
<v Speaker 2>we respond to that central love story. But overall, I

0:29:44.285 --> 0:29:48.965
<v Speaker 2>think that's also indicative of what generally works about this movie,

0:29:49.005 --> 0:29:51.765
<v Speaker 2>and you touched on it a little bit earlier, it

0:29:51.805 --> 0:29:53.245
<v Speaker 2>is that it is self contained.

0:29:53.485 --> 0:29:55.525
<v Speaker 3>That's the right word for it.

0:29:55.525 --> 0:29:59.245
<v Speaker 2>It does have some intimacy in a lot of these scenes.

0:30:00.005 --> 0:30:02.685
<v Speaker 2>You do feel as if all of the action revolves

0:30:02.725 --> 0:30:08.125
<v Speaker 2>around these four or five central characters. Though ironically it's

0:30:08.125 --> 0:30:10.245
<v Speaker 2>also a movie that gets right the fact that it

0:30:10.285 --> 0:30:12.405
<v Speaker 2>takes place in New York and you feel as if

0:30:12.405 --> 0:30:15.885
<v Speaker 2>there are real people living lives in the city, in

0:30:15.965 --> 0:30:18.245
<v Speaker 2>contrast to I'll say it and I like many of

0:30:18.285 --> 0:30:20.365
<v Speaker 2>these Marvel movies. We say this all the time. We've

0:30:20.365 --> 0:30:22.525
<v Speaker 2>reviewed some of the very favorably on the show. But

0:30:22.885 --> 0:30:25.725
<v Speaker 2>they have so many characters in it, and there's so

0:30:25.805 --> 0:30:28.645
<v Speaker 2>much going on that you don't really ever get the

0:30:28.645 --> 0:30:30.925
<v Speaker 2>sense that they exist in a real world, you know,

0:30:31.125 --> 0:30:35.445
<v Speaker 2>or that there's stakes that affect real people. It tries

0:30:35.485 --> 0:30:38.645
<v Speaker 2>to build that, and oftentimes succeeds in the relationships between

0:30:38.885 --> 0:30:42.325
<v Speaker 2>those characters, but not on the scale that a movie

0:30:42.685 --> 0:30:46.765
<v Speaker 2>like This Spider Man does. And the fact that you've

0:30:46.805 --> 0:30:51.285
<v Speaker 2>got just this universe of characters, everything that's happening from

0:30:52.365 --> 0:30:56.685
<v Speaker 2>a plot standpoint, from a story standpoint, from a thematic standpoint,

0:30:56.765 --> 0:31:01.165
<v Speaker 2>all ties back to the characters and characters that you

0:31:01.205 --> 0:31:05.285
<v Speaker 2>either care about or are really curious about, and they

0:31:05.325 --> 0:31:07.845
<v Speaker 2>all have depth to them. I mean, yes, this is

0:31:07.885 --> 0:31:12.845
<v Speaker 2>a movie about a teen ish grappling with changes and

0:31:12.845 --> 0:31:16.045
<v Speaker 2>grappling with responsibility and what it means to be a man.

0:31:16.325 --> 0:31:20.005
<v Speaker 2>But he's also at the end of the day, protecting

0:31:20.885 --> 0:31:24.125
<v Speaker 2>the people he loves and the city he loves from

0:31:24.405 --> 0:31:27.125
<v Speaker 2>a bad guy. And even that bad guy is someone

0:31:27.165 --> 0:31:30.525
<v Speaker 2>that he has a personal connection to. So I think

0:31:30.565 --> 0:31:33.325
<v Speaker 2>that heart is at the heart of what makes Spider

0:31:33.365 --> 0:31:34.325
<v Speaker 2>Man so good.

0:31:34.685 --> 0:31:38.685
<v Speaker 1>So should we turn to your favorite the getting to

0:31:38.725 --> 0:31:41.725
<v Speaker 1>know his powers? Getting to learn his Powers sequence? Because

0:31:41.765 --> 0:31:44.525
<v Speaker 1>for me, that's it. I think what this does, it

0:31:44.765 --> 0:31:47.245
<v Speaker 1>sort of combines two of the great things about the movie.

0:31:47.285 --> 0:31:53.045
<v Speaker 1>It's Ramy's skills as a filmmaker and McGuire's abilities as

0:31:53.085 --> 0:31:56.445
<v Speaker 1>a performer. For this part in particular, I talked about

0:31:56.445 --> 0:32:00.605
<v Speaker 1>the camera work and how about the movement As Peter

0:32:00.725 --> 0:32:03.445
<v Speaker 1>starts crawling up that brick wall in the alley, right,

0:32:03.485 --> 0:32:06.165
<v Speaker 1>we're looking down at him and it kind of just

0:32:06.325 --> 0:32:10.885
<v Speaker 1>slides alongside of him and then watches him. It's a

0:32:10.965 --> 0:32:14.525
<v Speaker 1>perfect example of waiting for your moment and then really

0:32:14.965 --> 0:32:18.605
<v Speaker 1>going for it and putting us in that experience. And

0:32:18.645 --> 0:32:22.765
<v Speaker 1>then even when we get you know, Spider Man swinging

0:32:22.805 --> 0:32:24.805
<v Speaker 1>around and it's a little more clumsy as it should

0:32:24.805 --> 0:32:27.965
<v Speaker 1>be in these opening sequences. I like the patience Raimi

0:32:28.045 --> 0:32:30.845
<v Speaker 1>has for wide screen compositions for a lot of the action.

0:32:31.005 --> 0:32:34.165
<v Speaker 1>This isn't edited to death, right, and you get a

0:32:34.205 --> 0:32:35.685
<v Speaker 1>little bit of that here. I think you get more

0:32:35.685 --> 0:32:38.485
<v Speaker 1>of it as Peter is more confident in his abilities

0:32:39.205 --> 0:32:42.125
<v Speaker 1>and we're just kind of taking in the skyline that

0:32:42.205 --> 0:32:44.845
<v Speaker 1>he's swinging through without having to have it be chopped

0:32:44.925 --> 0:32:47.845
<v Speaker 1>up in so many edits. So I like Raymie's camera

0:32:47.885 --> 0:32:50.805
<v Speaker 1>work and filmmaking prowess here, but also McGuire, I mean,

0:32:52.045 --> 0:32:54.285
<v Speaker 1>he you know, is it just nostalgia that I think

0:32:54.405 --> 0:32:56.645
<v Speaker 1>he's the best Spider Man we have. I really like

0:32:56.725 --> 0:33:00.085
<v Speaker 1>Tom holland you know Andrew Garfield that those films just

0:33:00.565 --> 0:33:02.885
<v Speaker 1>they never quite worked for me, and as much as

0:33:02.925 --> 0:33:04.605
<v Speaker 1>I like him as an actor, it didn't seem like

0:33:04.645 --> 0:33:08.125
<v Speaker 1>the greatest fit. But maguire here gets the nerdiness down,

0:33:08.485 --> 0:33:10.925
<v Speaker 1>which I think is the most important quality for this character.

0:33:11.565 --> 0:33:14.365
<v Speaker 1>I love his froggy smile when he doesn't open his

0:33:14.405 --> 0:33:17.925
<v Speaker 1>mouth and it just kind of like starts spreading, but

0:33:18.005 --> 0:33:20.285
<v Speaker 1>he's not going to fully commit because there it's that

0:33:20.325 --> 0:33:23.925
<v Speaker 1>little bit of security that he brings. And going back

0:33:23.925 --> 0:33:28.645
<v Speaker 1>to your pick, this enthusiasm he has for his powers,

0:33:28.725 --> 0:33:32.565
<v Speaker 1>just the excitement he's expressing, the fun. How fun would

0:33:32.605 --> 0:33:34.285
<v Speaker 1>it be to be Spider Man? No one ever really

0:33:34.325 --> 0:33:36.085
<v Speaker 1>thought it would be fun to be Batman when you

0:33:36.085 --> 0:33:38.405
<v Speaker 1>were a kid. You know, it seemed maybe the TV

0:33:38.525 --> 0:33:41.245
<v Speaker 1>show okay, yeah, you tell it about pretty cool, but

0:33:41.405 --> 0:33:45.445
<v Speaker 1>you know, the comic Batman, the more intense traumatized Batman,

0:33:46.925 --> 0:33:49.845
<v Speaker 1>Spider Man seemed like it would be great fun. And

0:33:49.885 --> 0:33:53.925
<v Speaker 1>that's what McGuire taps into in this opening sequence or

0:33:53.965 --> 0:33:54.765
<v Speaker 1>this early sequence.

0:33:54.805 --> 0:33:58.805
<v Speaker 2>I should say, yeah, for sure, I remember having that

0:33:58.885 --> 0:34:01.885
<v Speaker 2>same feeling you described in the theater when I saw

0:34:01.885 --> 0:34:04.485
<v Speaker 2>it in two thousand and two, and I had a

0:34:04.525 --> 0:34:06.605
<v Speaker 2>similar feeling watching it again, and I think it's for

0:34:06.645 --> 0:34:10.125
<v Speaker 2>all the reasons that you express. I'll also say that

0:34:10.645 --> 0:34:12.884
<v Speaker 2>it's another one of those scenes that gets back to

0:34:12.925 --> 0:34:16.045
<v Speaker 2>the point about the DNA of what attracts us to

0:34:16.245 --> 0:34:19.405
<v Speaker 2>superhero movies. In the first place, and what the best

0:34:19.445 --> 0:34:23.725
<v Speaker 2>ones do and do well. It makes me think of

0:34:24.245 --> 0:34:31.165
<v Speaker 2>Donner's Superman in particular, and a younger Clark Kent discovering

0:34:31.205 --> 0:34:33.765
<v Speaker 2>his powers and having some fun running along the train,

0:34:34.285 --> 0:34:36.565
<v Speaker 2>kicking the football, doing some of those different things that

0:34:36.645 --> 0:34:39.565
<v Speaker 2>he does. We see that here in this scene with

0:34:39.605 --> 0:34:43.325
<v Speaker 2>Peter Parker and the montage. I'll get away from the

0:34:43.325 --> 0:34:45.565
<v Speaker 2>scene a little bit, but it follows pretty quickly as

0:34:45.605 --> 0:34:49.725
<v Speaker 2>he starts to accept his responsibility, that montage of him

0:34:49.765 --> 0:34:52.925
<v Speaker 2>forwarding various crimes. That's something you see in Batman two.

0:34:53.285 --> 0:34:56.005
<v Speaker 2>You probably see in every superhero movie, at least every

0:34:56.045 --> 0:34:59.805
<v Speaker 2>origin story to an extent, But here you've got that

0:34:59.925 --> 0:35:05.165
<v Speaker 2>playfulness about it. As Sophie said, unlike watching the Batman movies,

0:35:05.165 --> 0:35:07.245
<v Speaker 2>and she likes those Nolan movies too, but it never

0:35:07.285 --> 0:35:09.885
<v Speaker 2>feels like a drag. In fact, it feels really fun

0:35:10.245 --> 0:35:12.285
<v Speaker 2>as you watch those scenes here, and I think this

0:35:12.445 --> 0:35:16.045
<v Speaker 2>is the most fun scene in the film, and I

0:35:16.045 --> 0:35:18.725
<v Speaker 2>think at its core, to go back to where we started,

0:35:19.285 --> 0:35:23.445
<v Speaker 2>it's the scene that encapsulates everything that drew us to

0:35:23.485 --> 0:35:27.005
<v Speaker 2>Spider Man in the first place as kids. It is

0:35:27.045 --> 0:35:32.125
<v Speaker 2>both the fantasy and the imagination part, the part where

0:35:32.405 --> 0:35:36.845
<v Speaker 2>he gets to do things above and beyond his normal capabilities.

0:35:37.125 --> 0:35:40.925
<v Speaker 2>But it also has him failing, It has him learning,

0:35:41.045 --> 0:35:43.325
<v Speaker 2>It has him having to figure things out. And so

0:35:43.605 --> 0:35:46.404
<v Speaker 2>that same part of us where you know you were

0:35:46.525 --> 0:35:49.005
<v Speaker 2>you were climbing on the stairs a certain way. You

0:35:49.045 --> 0:35:51.765
<v Speaker 2>probably fell, you know, you're climbing up the side of

0:35:51.805 --> 0:35:54.525
<v Speaker 2>the stairs. Your mom told you not to, but you

0:35:54.565 --> 0:35:58.404
<v Speaker 2>think you're being just like there. Yeah, the first time

0:35:58.445 --> 0:36:01.245
<v Speaker 2>you fall, just like he does here, right, But then

0:36:01.885 --> 0:36:03.965
<v Speaker 2>but then you figure it out and in your mind

0:36:04.365 --> 0:36:05.685
<v Speaker 2>you're You're Spider Man.

0:36:05.725 --> 0:36:09.605
<v Speaker 1>It's all there, It's all right, all right. So one

0:36:09.605 --> 0:36:11.805
<v Speaker 1>more thing, for sure, I wanted to touch on, just

0:36:11.845 --> 0:36:14.565
<v Speaker 1>because there's there was so much talk about turning red,

0:36:14.685 --> 0:36:18.165
<v Speaker 1>you know, and female adolescence and puberty and are we

0:36:18.245 --> 0:36:20.805
<v Speaker 1>really going to have a movie about menstruation? I can't.

0:36:20.805 --> 0:36:22.725
<v Speaker 1>You know, a lot of people, including us, I think,

0:36:22.765 --> 0:36:26.364
<v Speaker 1>appreciated that sort of honesty and that freshness, and other

0:36:26.405 --> 0:36:28.885
<v Speaker 1>people were like, I can't believe this is happening in

0:36:28.925 --> 0:36:31.725
<v Speaker 1>a movie for kids. I mean, this thing as a

0:36:31.765 --> 0:36:36.805
<v Speaker 1>puberty parable is pretty incredible, right, Uncle Ben mentioning very

0:36:36.885 --> 0:36:42.404
<v Speaker 1>early on hormones teenagers to May Peter alone in his room,

0:36:42.765 --> 0:36:48.605
<v Speaker 1>dealing with sticky substances, and it goes beyond the physical changes, right,

0:36:49.205 --> 0:36:53.605
<v Speaker 1>it's also marx the relationship. The relational changes that happen

0:36:54.005 --> 0:36:56.605
<v Speaker 1>during those years are really sort of and again this

0:36:56.765 --> 0:37:00.085
<v Speaker 1>is probably because I'm an older parent at this point.

0:37:00.165 --> 0:37:04.125
<v Speaker 1>But how about the moment where he and Uncle Ben are.

0:37:04.365 --> 0:37:08.005
<v Speaker 1>You know, they clearly have a good connection here together,

0:37:08.565 --> 0:37:11.725
<v Speaker 1>and Cliff Robertson is Uncle Ben of course, wonderful performance

0:37:12.285 --> 0:37:15.485
<v Speaker 1>and they're talking about painting when he comes home from school,

0:37:15.525 --> 0:37:17.924
<v Speaker 1>We're gonna paint. I think it's the kitchen or whatever, right, sure,

0:37:18.005 --> 0:37:21.845
<v Speaker 1>thing that is what the afternoon he gets he discovers

0:37:21.845 --> 0:37:24.325
<v Speaker 1>his powers and goes on the exact sequence we were

0:37:24.325 --> 0:37:27.325
<v Speaker 1>just talking about. That's the joy ride. That's taking out

0:37:27.325 --> 0:37:31.165
<v Speaker 1>the car with your friends, forgetting what you promised, the

0:37:31.205 --> 0:37:34.045
<v Speaker 1>person in your life who your responsive cares about you,

0:37:34.405 --> 0:37:37.485
<v Speaker 1>who cares about you, right, And to me, it was

0:37:37.525 --> 0:37:39.405
<v Speaker 1>just like, oh, and then what do you get the

0:37:39.485 --> 0:37:42.005
<v Speaker 1>little the note about his supper still you know, no

0:37:42.205 --> 0:37:44.165
<v Speaker 1>like waiting for him to come home and screaming him

0:37:44.165 --> 0:37:46.805
<v Speaker 1>out just to note your supper is still waiting for you.

0:37:46.885 --> 0:37:48.325
<v Speaker 1>And you don't get the sense. It's like a guilt

0:37:48.365 --> 0:37:51.005
<v Speaker 1>trip thing either, it's they wanted to make sure he

0:37:51.245 --> 0:37:53.645
<v Speaker 1>ate So all of that I think is tied into

0:37:53.685 --> 0:37:56.125
<v Speaker 1>this As a puberty parable is just charting, you know,

0:37:56.365 --> 0:37:59.805
<v Speaker 1>some nods to the physical changes, but also noticing the

0:37:59.885 --> 0:38:01.325
<v Speaker 1>relational element as well.

0:38:01.845 --> 0:38:02.165
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:38:02.165 --> 0:38:05.245
<v Speaker 2>Well, even the last thing he says to him, his rebuke,

0:38:05.365 --> 0:38:08.605
<v Speaker 2>is something you can imagine that he'd never probably said

0:38:08.605 --> 0:38:12.165
<v Speaker 2>to him before, and yeah, what have said to him prior?

0:38:12.445 --> 0:38:15.805
<v Speaker 2>He's accepted him as his father his entire life, and

0:38:15.925 --> 0:38:19.565
<v Speaker 2>yet post change, as he's dealing with this and post

0:38:19.605 --> 0:38:23.085
<v Speaker 2>his transformation, now he's standing up to him, if you

0:38:23.125 --> 0:38:26.725
<v Speaker 2>will and saying, well, you're not my father and gets

0:38:26.725 --> 0:38:30.325
<v Speaker 2>out of the car. So that that relationship element between

0:38:30.805 --> 0:38:34.285
<v Speaker 2>the adults, between the parents in this case and the

0:38:34.285 --> 0:38:37.925
<v Speaker 2>sun is very much at play. I do think it's

0:38:37.925 --> 0:38:42.285
<v Speaker 2>something that works about the film. I don't think it's

0:38:42.285 --> 0:38:46.605
<v Speaker 2>a big shock either. If you recall, I think that

0:38:47.685 --> 0:38:51.125
<v Speaker 2>Raymi deals with to go back to turning red menstruation

0:38:51.565 --> 0:38:55.645
<v Speaker 2>as a very dominant metaphor all the blood that's happening

0:38:55.645 --> 0:38:59.725
<v Speaker 2>in Evil Dead. He's playing with similar ideas in that

0:38:59.805 --> 0:39:02.805
<v Speaker 2>film as he is here in Spider Man. But you're right,

0:39:02.845 --> 0:39:05.765
<v Speaker 2>the fact that that moment where he says, don't come in,

0:39:05.965 --> 0:39:08.404
<v Speaker 2>I'm not dressed, and then he turns around and there's

0:39:08.525 --> 0:39:13.645
<v Speaker 2>there's webs everywhere. I mean, that's hilarious. And the fact

0:39:13.645 --> 0:39:18.485
<v Speaker 2>that he's he's generating these substances by himself the verses

0:39:18.685 --> 0:39:21.525
<v Speaker 2>and of course they talk about this and no way home.

0:39:22.005 --> 0:39:25.565
<v Speaker 2>The fact that he can produce that substance on his

0:39:25.605 --> 0:39:29.565
<v Speaker 2>own versus it being something that he has to actually manufacture.

0:39:30.005 --> 0:39:32.965
<v Speaker 2>I do like that touch for all the reasons that

0:39:33.045 --> 0:39:36.405
<v Speaker 2>you articulated. There's still a part of me too that

0:39:37.205 --> 0:39:40.885
<v Speaker 2>kind of puts that in the funny camp factor of

0:39:40.925 --> 0:39:43.765
<v Speaker 2>the film as well, because, as I alluded to earlier,

0:39:44.645 --> 0:39:47.525
<v Speaker 2>he's eighteen or something right, like he's about to graduate

0:39:47.645 --> 0:39:48.285
<v Speaker 2>high school.

0:39:48.485 --> 0:39:51.565
<v Speaker 3>Well, and they talk about him like he's fourteen and

0:39:52.045 --> 0:39:52.645
<v Speaker 3>going through it.

0:39:52.725 --> 0:39:55.485
<v Speaker 1>Well, we're definitely still in the era of like clearly

0:39:55.925 --> 0:39:58.445
<v Speaker 1>thirty eight year olds playing teenagers. When it comes to

0:39:58.525 --> 0:40:01.125
<v Speaker 1>like Flash in the bullying scenes.

0:40:01.285 --> 0:40:06.285
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's jubaman Ganello in his first ever screen performance.

0:40:06.365 --> 0:40:08.765
<v Speaker 3>Wow recognizable. I did not catch that.

0:40:08.885 --> 0:40:12.285
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're wondering if Flash is is Flash like his

0:40:12.405 --> 0:40:15.205
<v Speaker 1>classmate or is it grandparent s day? Not quite sure?

0:40:17.085 --> 0:40:18.645
<v Speaker 3>Exactly well.

0:40:18.925 --> 0:40:22.685
<v Speaker 2>We obviously had fun with Spider Man, and if you

0:40:23.085 --> 0:40:26.045
<v Speaker 2>have seen the film recently, it's available to rent on

0:40:26.085 --> 0:40:28.605
<v Speaker 2>most platforms. You may also find a two thousand and

0:40:28.605 --> 0:40:30.445
<v Speaker 2>two era DVD is your local library.

0:40:30.885 --> 0:40:34.045
<v Speaker 3>We'd love to hear your thoughts. You can email us

0:40:34.045 --> 0:40:35.525
<v Speaker 3>feedback at Filmspotting dot.

0:40:35.405 --> 0:40:46.205
<v Speaker 2>Mat More Spider Man Talk coming on Friday with our

0:40:46.245 --> 0:40:50.325
<v Speaker 2>top five Spider Man scenes. We will have to wait

0:40:50.325 --> 0:40:53.045
<v Speaker 2>in suspense to find out, Josh, whether or not any

0:40:53.085 --> 0:40:55.445
<v Speaker 2>of those moments make your list.

0:40:55.685 --> 0:40:58.444
<v Speaker 1>I can't wait just as long as I didn't say

0:40:58.485 --> 0:41:02.645
<v Speaker 1>something the opposite. It's really got me worried. Now. Access

0:41:02.645 --> 0:41:04.525
<v Speaker 1>to the Film Spotting Archive is just one of the

0:41:04.565 --> 0:41:08.245
<v Speaker 1>benefits of joining the Film Spotting Family. You also get bonushows,

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0:41:12.205 --> 0:41:14.205
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0:41:14.325 --> 0:41:18.645
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0:41:18.685 --> 0:41:21.645
<v Speaker 3>This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.

0:41:22.525 --> 0:41:23.005
<v Speaker 1>Good Bye

0:41:27.725 --> 0:41:29.285
<v Speaker 3>Everything,