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Speaker 2: What kind of a show you guys putting on here today?
Speaker 1: You're not interested in armed now? No, Look, we're going
Speaker 1: to do this thing. We're going to have a conversation.
Speaker 3: Hey, film spotters.
Speaker 2: It is time for a drop from the film Spotting archive.
Speaker 2: And with Marvel's new Spider Man movie coming to theaters
Speaker 2: and our top five Spider Man scenes dropping on Friday,
Speaker 2: we decided to go into the archive and pull out
Speaker 2: our twentieth anniversary Sacred Cow review of Sam Raimi's Spider
Speaker 2: Man the two thousand and two movie. We pulled this
Speaker 2: out from two two. Josh, Now, I know from talking
Speaker 2: to you just before we started recording that you have
Speaker 2: no recollection whatsoever.
Speaker 3: Had this conversation I in.
Speaker 1: Doing all my research and my processing and my remembering,
Speaker 1: even pulling up my old reviews, No, so I don't
Speaker 1: know what that says about this conversation. I'm sure it
Speaker 1: was as brilliant as ever, and I'm just for some
Speaker 1: reason it went through the seat of my brain. But
Speaker 1: did you, however, did you listen to it as part
Speaker 1: of your research too, to refresh yourself.
Speaker 2: I did not listen to it. I did vaguely recall
Speaker 2: us having the conversation. But here's how I knew that
Speaker 2: you probably had no recollection of this conversation. Oh boy,
Speaker 2: So we just taped the Friday show the top five
Speaker 2: Spider Man scenes, and at no point did this conversation
Speaker 2: come up. And that's only really relevant because I went
Speaker 2: back and looked at my notes from this conversation because
Speaker 2: there is at least one scene from Spider Man, as
Speaker 2: you know, from this Spider Man on my list, and
Speaker 2: so I wanted to see did I bring up this scene?
Speaker 2: What did I say about it? As you as you do?
Speaker 2: Turns out, as listeners are about to hear, turns out
Speaker 2: that the conceit for this conversation that listeners are about
Speaker 2: to hear was me talking about Raymy delivering iconic scenes
Speaker 2: and me asking you for your top five from this
Speaker 2: movie from this movie and so so I don't know,
Speaker 2: because I haven't really listened to this conversation either. But
Speaker 2: it turns out that in my notes, the way my
Speaker 2: notes for this movie are structured, I don't really have
Speaker 2: any bullet points. I just have top five moments. Okay,
Speaker 2: I have a top five moments from this film, and
Speaker 2: my number one did turn out to be randomly, not surprisingly,
Speaker 2: but randomly turned out to be the same number one
Speaker 2: that is my top five Spider Man moment on Friday.
Speaker 1: Whereas whereas there's a good chance I will on this
Speaker 1: review people are about to hear contradict myself and the
Speaker 1: part that I will make two days later.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it turns out a Spider Man top five.
Speaker 2: It's probably in your notes somewhere in preparation show.
Speaker 1: I should have looked there. That would have made a
Speaker 1: Friday show a lot easier, but oh wow, you got
Speaker 1: to put in the work at.
Speaker 3: Them or more difficult.
Speaker 2: Who knows, well that with that setup you can now
Speaker 2: listen to our top five. Well, it's supposed to be
Speaker 2: not a top five. It's supposed to be our Spider Man.
Speaker 2: Conversation about Sam Raimi's film from two thousand and two,
Speaker 2: upon its twentieth anniversary.
Speaker 3: Here is that conversation.
Speaker 2: From episode eight seventy two, and just a reminder that
Speaker 2: as a Film Spotting family member, you can dip into
Speaker 2: the archive and pull out conversations like this just at
Speaker 2: your fingertips at any time you would like that.
Speaker 1: How is that? Whatever it is, somebody asked to stop it.
Speaker 3: It's great power comes great responsibility. This is my gift.
Speaker 2: Wow, it is my curs. How are you?
Speaker 3: Who am I?
Speaker 1: I'm spider Man.
Speaker 2: When I was four or five, I was interviewed for
Speaker 2: my mom's company newsletter. One of the questions was what
Speaker 2: do you want to be when you grow up? No,
Speaker 2: my answer was an astronaut, or policeman or fireman. I
Speaker 2: wanted to be spider Man. Sam Ramie spider Man didn't
Speaker 2: send me running in search of my old red and
Speaker 2: blue Spandex tights, but let's just say I thought about it.
Speaker 2: That was how I opened my review of Ramie spider Man,
Speaker 2: released this week. Back in two thousand and two, when
Speaker 2: I was a grad student cutting my critical teeth at
Speaker 2: the Daily Iowa. Fun fact, I'm pretty sure that spider
Speaker 2: review concluded my two year.
Speaker 3: Run at the d I.
Speaker 2: Let's see if you can identify this one Josh as
Speaker 2: someone who used to dress up in Spider Man under
Speaker 2: rus and literally try to climb walls when I was
Speaker 2: a kid. High praise I can give this high flying
Speaker 2: adaptation from director Sam Raimi is to say it made
Speaker 2: me want to be Spider Man again. Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you said it so I don't have to.
Speaker 2: That's the opening to your capsule review of Spider Man,
Speaker 2: of course, and I'm tempted to suggest the connection proves
Speaker 2: we were destined to do this show together, maybe except
Speaker 2: for the fact that we could probably find I don't
Speaker 2: know a few hundred thousand Gen X males who would
Speaker 2: have started their reviews similarly. Nevertheless, clearly we were ready
Speaker 2: for Rami and Spider Man. So were most moviegoers. We
Speaker 2: had Blade An X Men and Tim Burton's Batman and
Speaker 2: the Superman movies before that. But this was pre Sony
Speaker 2: having to crank out a Spider movie every five years
Speaker 2: or else relinquish the IP, pre MCU, pre DCEU, pre
Speaker 2: anyone ever using the phrase cinematic universe at all. As
Speaker 2: far as I can recall, the release also came just
Speaker 2: eight months after nine to eleven, a teaser featured footage
Speaker 2: of bank robbers cast in one of Spidey's webs spun
Speaker 2: between the twin towers, and included a shot of the
Speaker 2: towers reflected in the eyes of his mask. That footage
Speaker 2: was pulled within a few days of the attacks. Watching
Speaker 2: Willem Dafoe's Green Goblin streak across the Manhattan skyline and
Speaker 2: throw bombs at a tall building hits different post nine
Speaker 2: to eleven. Still same for the climactic action scene where
Speaker 2: Toby Maguire's Wall Crawler forwarts the bad guy terrorist with
Speaker 2: an assist from angry New Yorkers in Spidey's final swing
Speaker 2: from the pole of an American flag waving gloriously atop
Speaker 2: the Empire State Building. Was that spirit why Spider Man
Speaker 2: was the biggest box office earner of its year, grossing
Speaker 2: a full one hundred million more domestically than Star Wars
Speaker 2: Episode two Attack of the Clones and was the sixth
Speaker 2: highest grossing film overall at the time of its release.
Speaker 2: Or was it simply because it's such a well made, rousing,
Speaker 2: character driven action movie with no multa verses but a
Speaker 2: multitude of memorable scenes. Looking back at my notes from
Speaker 2: the Spider Man three review. On the show, I commented
Speaker 2: that despite my strong appreciation for Spider Man Too, and
Speaker 2: let's be clear, I know that it has some great sequences,
Speaker 2: at the time, I couldn't immediately recall iconic scenes from
Speaker 2: it the way I could with its predecessor, and the
Speaker 2: handful of scenes I jotted down then were all among
Speaker 2: my favorites on this rewatch. In the parlance of our
Speaker 2: teenage kids, I'd love to hear your top five iconic
Speaker 2: Spider Man moments and tell me which one had you
Speaker 2: locked in your bedroom struggling to fit into those old
Speaker 2: under ruths with knocks on the door and you saying
Speaker 2: I'm exercising, I'm not dressed.
Speaker 1: Debbie. Oh, if I still had those, I would be
Speaker 1: so happy. Did you have those? Did you get in
Speaker 1: on the under root crash? Of course I did. Okay, goods,
Speaker 1: I did. I'm relieved to the Superman yep, I'm relieved
Speaker 1: to hear that. I'm also relieved to hear that your
Speaker 1: answer to your mom's company newsletter wasn't I foresee myself
Speaker 1: managing a team of fifteen to twenty very confidently and competently.
Speaker 1: I mean no, I'm so glad to hear there there
Speaker 1: was a very young yeah superhero aspiring ad about there.
Speaker 3: Before beaten down and jaded, yet.
Speaker 1: Before he started, you know, claiming the right Stuff was
Speaker 1: his best film? Or what's the other one? The garp
Speaker 1: one you know formed me at age? For me? Actually, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's nice. I like picturing you that way. It's interesting
Speaker 1: because I would say Burton's Batman. I was still you know,
Speaker 1: in was it middle school or just before high school,
Speaker 1: but saw that as a complete fan right and was
Speaker 1: as excited about it as I could possibly be. Always
Speaker 1: love spider Man more than Batman, but you know, like
Speaker 1: Batman two as a kid, and then spider Man Raymie
Speaker 1: spider Man in two thousand and two is where I
Speaker 1: had to think about this somewhat professionally, right, theoretically, at
Speaker 1: this point, this was my job, and it was my
Speaker 1: job as writing for then Aperville Sun at that point.
Speaker 1: And I remember sitting in the screen. It was at
Speaker 1: Piper's Alley, which doesn't exist anymore as a movie theater
Speaker 1: in Chicago, and there was another critic a couple rows
Speaker 1: ahead of me who came probably a little older than us,
Speaker 1: came wearing a Spider Man T shirt and as soon
Speaker 1: as the credit started, just started rocking back and forth
Speaker 1: in his seat. And I remember thinking to myself, you know,
Speaker 1: still somewhat trying to figure this out, where's the line
Speaker 1: of professionalism and personal enthusiasm and.
Speaker 3: Mister Puris were so unhappy.
Speaker 1: I just didn't know what to do with that, huh.
Speaker 1: And I like to think maybe I've gotten past that
Speaker 1: because my review, as you saw, even in that opening
Speaker 1: that you quoted, was purely enthusiastic and tied into the
Speaker 1: same sort of response, you know, And that is kind
Speaker 1: of how I responded to it watching it again, This
Speaker 1: movie is just so sweet, which I think I had forgotten.
Speaker 1: It's very self contained in the way you've already talked
Speaker 1: about there. Not only are there no multiverses, there's no
Speaker 1: cinematic universes. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to
Speaker 1: be better. But I did appreciate how this story really
Speaker 1: it affected all those New Yorkers who were caught as bystanders.
Speaker 1: But it really involves maybe seven to eight people right right,
Speaker 1: Peter's family, Mary Jane, and then the Osbornes, and that's
Speaker 1: pretty much who this It doesn't affect not only this
Speaker 1: whole planet or universe or multiverses. It's just this group
Speaker 1: of ten or less and there was something intimate about
Speaker 1: that that I did appreciate. So I think this stands up.
Speaker 1: You know, obviously it stood up at the time. Fascinating
Speaker 1: for you to bring nine to eleven into it because
Speaker 1: I had totally forgotten that context, and you're absolut right
Speaker 1: that was on everybody's minds at the time. That's an
Speaker 1: element to it as well. But I just think you're right.
Speaker 1: It's really well made, hits all the right buttons that
Speaker 1: we want a movie like this to hit, and is
Speaker 1: still in ways that we can probably get into a
Speaker 1: Sam Raimi movie, which is another thing I was excited
Speaker 1: about at the time, you know. So I had, I mean,
Speaker 1: speaking of where I was, I had taken Debbi and
Speaker 1: I had gone on a date to see Dark Man,
Speaker 1: So I was, you know, that much of kind of
Speaker 1: aware of Ramie at that point many years earlier. To
Speaker 1: have him take on Spider Man was another reason for
Speaker 1: me to be excited, and to see it come through
Speaker 1: and have touches of him as a filmmaker. I really
Speaker 1: fell for it. So I think at some point you
Speaker 1: asked me about scenes. Do you want me to do?
Speaker 1: You want me to jump into those two? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Are you just ignoring my my query, my demand for
Speaker 2: your five favorites.
Speaker 1: No, let's do it. I mean I'm going to say
Speaker 1: as this, you may not be surprised based on how
Speaker 1: I set up or transitioned us here anytime. I'm Willem
Speaker 1: Defoux cackles. I just love the enthusiasm. And he's not
Speaker 1: above this part either, right, he's not kind of trying
Speaker 1: to have it both ways where he's really committed, but
Speaker 1: is also letting us know somehow that he's above this
Speaker 1: comic book material. I think he's all in, and I
Speaker 1: think it's a great villain performance. Another highlight scene, My
Speaker 1: name is the Human Spider. Peter's insistence on that, rather
Speaker 1: than Bruce Campbell's, you know, obviously the perfect name.
Speaker 3: It's better. He insists, you're n the whole.
Speaker 1: Rustling match sequence, minus that you know, homophobic quip that
Speaker 1: still is in the script that certainly dates it in
Speaker 1: a negative way. Number three would be this exchange you're
Speaker 1: taller than you look. I hunch don't just the economy
Speaker 1: of that, How much work do those three lines do
Speaker 1: David Cupp screenwriter. Of course. Here number two, the whole
Speaker 1: trying out his powers sequence, and this is the one
Speaker 1: where it was like, oh man, am I wearing my
Speaker 1: under ruts? Like I might be wearing my under ruths
Speaker 1: still right, just the Maguire's enthusiasm and going back to
Speaker 1: Rami's camera. You know, Raymie has always had I think
Speaker 1: we you know, we talked about Evil Dead at some
Speaker 1: point on the show, maybe for a Halloween themed episode,
Speaker 1: and I was a little cooler on it that most
Speaker 1: people are just that the camera always had to be
Speaker 1: doing something. And what I like about Spider Man is
Speaker 1: that he chooses the right moments for the camera to
Speaker 1: do something. And that whole sequence is where you get it.
Speaker 1: And then I'll just say it and we can dive
Speaker 1: into it later. I want to hear your scenes as well.
Speaker 1: But the upside Down kiss, that's number one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the last two you mentioned are my top two,
Speaker 2: and I have them just in reverse order. I'm going
Speaker 2: with the kiss number two, the upside down kiss in
Speaker 2: the rain, and then number one discovering his powers, and
Speaker 2: we can get into those a little more. I think
Speaker 2: I want to say up front here that We're going
Speaker 2: to be pretty comfortable spoiling this movie. We're going to
Speaker 2: assume that mo of you listening have seen this film,
Speaker 2: and if you haven't, I'm not going to say ninety
Speaker 2: percent of our review is going to be spoilers. But
Speaker 2: still you should maybe skip ahead until you have actually
Speaker 2: seen this movie. So do you want me to just
Speaker 2: go in order? You want me to give you five
Speaker 2: through three? For me run to mention them, you didn't
Speaker 2: mention them, and they all get it. Different aspects of
Speaker 2: the film that I really appreciate. My number five, and
Speaker 2: this is one that you will not find on any
Speaker 2: list out there of the best Spider Man scenes ever.
Speaker 2: But on Rewatch just made me cackle almost the way
Speaker 2: Willem Defoe cackles as the Green Goblin. It's the Thanksgiving
Speaker 2: scene where he's about to cut into the turkey, but
Speaker 2: then Aunt may sets down that casse role or whatever,
Speaker 2: and he can't help himself. Norman Osborne reaches his finger
Speaker 2: in to get a bite before it's served. Oh Aunt
Speaker 2: may admonishes him. So Aunt may admonishing an ornery Osborne
Speaker 2: is my number five and I love it so much
Speaker 2: because of Dafoe's response. The way he looks at her,
Speaker 2: which is with that devilish grin that suggests, not only
Speaker 2: am I a little bit unhappy that you did that,
Speaker 2: I actually wanna jam this knife into it right now,
Speaker 2: Like that is exactly what he is thinking at that moment,
Speaker 2: and it takes everything he has within him playing the
Speaker 2: normal Norman to restrain himself and not do it. And
Speaker 2: the way Ramy lingers on that, so we have to
Speaker 2: be in that space. And Aunt May is even kind
Speaker 2: of looking at him. Rosemary Harras very good performance here
Speaker 2: as well, is looking at him and continues to kind
Speaker 2: of talk almost like this is a joke, right, but
Speaker 2: he doesn't really look like he's joking. And I think
Speaker 2: that scene is fantastic, and I think it does get
Speaker 2: at how good Dafoe is in this film overall. Maybe
Speaker 2: tangent just for a second. You mentioned Ramie and you
Speaker 2: were excited about that at the time. I don't know
Speaker 2: if I was a good enough Cinophile in two thousand
Speaker 2: and two to really think in those terms. In fact,
Speaker 2: I know I wasn't because I went back and looked
Speaker 2: at my review and I at least admitted that, you know,
Speaker 2: I had seen the Evil Dead Ones but mostly watched
Speaker 2: it through my hands because it scared me so much
Speaker 2: as a junior high kid, and I definitely didn't feel
Speaker 2: like I could speak in any terms about Rami as
Speaker 2: an O tour, so that was something that was lost
Speaker 2: on me completely back in O two, and this time
Speaker 2: you could see some of those horror elements really come through,
Speaker 2: including in those green Goblin scenes where he is by
Speaker 2: himself talking to himself.
Speaker 3: Those are legitimately.
Speaker 2: Creepy, and it takes an actor of Defoe's caliber to
Speaker 2: make them work and to make them as sinister and
Speaker 2: creepy as they actually are. I also really liked that scene, Josh,
Speaker 2: because that moment with aunt May, and it closes with
Speaker 2: an exchange between Harry and Kirsten Dunts Mary Jane as well.
Speaker 2: It gets at something this film is dealing with, which
Speaker 2: is masculinity, something that definitely wasn't a prism I was
Speaker 2: watching movies.
Speaker 3: Through twenty years ago.
Speaker 2: But that look he gives Aunt May is a look
Speaker 2: he would give anybody who's sort of standing in his
Speaker 2: way of anything, but I think it's heightened by the
Speaker 2: fact that she's a woman. Thanks for sticking up for me, Harry.
Speaker 3: You heard everyone heard that creep. Creep is my father.
Speaker 3: All right, If I'm lucky, I'll become half of what
Speaker 3: he is.
Speaker 2: So just keep your mouth shut about stuff you don't understand.
Speaker 1: Harry awespored very fair to call James Franco's Harry toxic.
Speaker 1: Think how about when he's approving MJ's dress for meeting
Speaker 1: his father, worried about, you know, if he'll find her pretty. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of nasty stuff like this in here.
Speaker 3: There is.
Speaker 2: I mean, the movie is filled with bad guys. And
Speaker 2: I don't mean bad guys like villains, though there's villains
Speaker 2: here too. It's full of bad guys doing bad things.
Speaker 2: My number four is here's where we really get into spoilers.
Speaker 2: It's the end or that scene right before the final
Speaker 2: swing and the Empire State Building shot. It's the scene
Speaker 2: at the cemetery for Norman Osborne, and it's the choice
Speaker 2: Peter makes, which I of course completely remembered. I knew
Speaker 2: that that's how it ended, with this kind of crushing Oh,
Speaker 2: he wants her so badly and now she wants him
Speaker 2: so badly, And is he actually going to say no?
Speaker 2: Is he actually going to do what he thinks he
Speaker 2: has to do, accepting his role, accepting his responsibility, and
Speaker 2: he's going to give up on happiness, he's going to
Speaker 2: give up on love, give up on MJ.
Speaker 3: And he does. And when he.
Speaker 2: Does, because we're invested enough in this story, in these characters,
Speaker 2: when he does it, it crushes you. But what I forgot
Speaker 2: is that touch as he walks away, where we get
Speaker 2: MJ's recognition that Peter is Spider Man. And that's a
Speaker 2: case of the screenplay and the direction having it both ways,
Speaker 2: but I think in a really good successful way.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we and all set up by that kiss, right.
Speaker 3: That's it.
Speaker 2: We understand his sacrifice, and since we see the movie
Speaker 2: through his eyes, we feel the weight of it, like
Speaker 2: we know something Spider Man doesn't, and he will continue
Speaker 2: to go through life into that second film not knowing
Speaker 2: what she knows, and so we'll continue to have that
Speaker 2: hanging over him. But the fact that we as an
Speaker 2: audience know that she really knows somehow does soften it
Speaker 2: while also putting it back on her.
Speaker 3: In a way.
Speaker 2: She has to maintain the secret and she has to
Speaker 2: wrestle with why he's making that decision. So I love
Speaker 2: that that choice and specifically MJ's recognition, So then I'll
Speaker 2: get to here, the last one before the two you mentioned.
Speaker 2: I think that that bridge fight showdown is really spectacular,
Speaker 2: and it's another choice right where Spider Man has to
Speaker 2: make one and he gets to have it both ways.
Speaker 2: He successfully again manages to save both all of those
Speaker 2: kids and all of those New Yorkers on the cable car,
Speaker 2: and he also gets to save MJ. But it's a
Speaker 2: moment that only just has great action, and despite there
Speaker 2: clearly being some CGI, this whole film uses practical effects
Speaker 2: and stunts to such good effects that nothing really about
Speaker 2: that sequence really feels false or artificial at all, and
Speaker 2: it keeps it contained. It's not just about chaos in
Speaker 2: destruction like these movies so often devolve into. And what
Speaker 2: I think that sequence also encapsulates is the DNA of
Speaker 2: super hero movies that came before it and that came
Speaker 2: after it. It it gets it right. It's all there
Speaker 2: on the screen where I'm sure most people were watching
Speaker 2: it and hearing his line where Defoe says something like,
Speaker 2: you know, if you're a hero, you're a good person,
Speaker 2: you're moral. At some point a lunatic is going to
Speaker 2: force you into making a difficult choice. And I'm thinking
Speaker 2: about Heath Ledgers, The Joker and The Dark Knight and
Speaker 2: the Sure you Know, and I feel like that DNA,
Speaker 2: that blueprint, as I said, is there for those movies
Speaker 2: that came but also many of those ones that came before.
Speaker 2: It has the sensibility of a Donner Superman and of
Speaker 2: Burton's Batman at times, versus going for total realism. There
Speaker 2: is a sense of humor, there is a likeness to it,
Speaker 2: a sweetness. The camp factor is in play in some
Speaker 2: scenes and just the right amount, I would say. And
Speaker 2: while that's the big showdown that any of these action
Speaker 2: movies are leading to, how about the fact that the
Speaker 2: final brawl is just that it's a mono almano fight between.
Speaker 3: Two characters where you have a reveal.
Speaker 2: You know that Peter is now having to be responsible for,
Speaker 2: even though he doesn't actually committed himself, be responsible for
Speaker 2: the death of a man he actually admires. And it's
Speaker 2: just hand to hand combat. It's not at all four
Speaker 2: thousand characters on screen and you're trying to keep up
Speaker 2: with the action and you feel it. You feel the
Speaker 2: intensity of that fight and the intimacy of it.
Speaker 1: If I prefer the one that you made as your pick,
Speaker 1: which I think is right. It's probably because it's free
Speaker 1: of the sort of I mean the thing I talk
Speaker 1: about when it comes to the MCU films, the punch plosions, right,
Speaker 1: they're punching each other through walls and that mono amano
Speaker 1: and I agree with you that it's personal and so
Speaker 1: it works on that level. But what I really like
Speaker 1: about your pick sequence on the bridge is that it's
Speaker 1: a confrontation, but it's more about acrobatics and the choices
Speaker 1: you're talking about and is he going to be able
Speaker 1: to hang on to this? Is he going to be
Speaker 1: able to spin around you know quickly enough? Those are
Speaker 1: the things that we're worried about, not really how hard
Speaker 1: is this next punch going to be? Okay? How hard
Speaker 1: is the next punch going to be? Okay? How hard
Speaker 1: is the next punch? Gon? You know, that's where a
Speaker 1: lot of Superhero and I would say more the DCEU
Speaker 1: films actually had this way where we're just more invested
Speaker 1: in the brute strength, and that sequence you picked is
Speaker 1: about so many other things, which is why I think
Speaker 1: it's such a highlight.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2: So then let's talk a little bit more about the
Speaker 2: two scenes you mentioned that are a top my list
Speaker 2: as well, because that upside down kiss in the rain
Speaker 2: is probably the most iconic moment from this film, and
Speaker 2: for good reason. It's enjoyable on some level cinematically the
Speaker 2: same way all of these scenes we're discussing are, but
Speaker 2: in terms of what that scene expresses about what works
Speaker 2: about this film overall. Yes, there is this sweetness that
Speaker 2: we've mentioned, the wholesomeness and innocence of this film overall.
Speaker 2: But think about this film and that relationship in comparison
Speaker 2: to the superhero movies we get today that are so well,
Speaker 2: they're not only sexless, but they don't express anything that
Speaker 2: even resembles any sexual heat. There is no sensuality to
Speaker 2: these films whatsoever. And here we absolutely get it. It
Speaker 2: doesn't shy away from Kirsten Dunn's character playing MJ as
Speaker 2: probably the quote unquote hottest girl in school, and in
Speaker 2: a way that doesn't make it to this male anyway
Speaker 2: feel too male gazy. You know, she's thirsting for Spider Man,
Speaker 2: she makes the moves, she makes the move with Peter.
Speaker 2: She's in control and back to the masculinity point when
Speaker 2: she's mistreated by Harry, when she hears the conversation between
Speaker 2: Harry and Norman and he doesn't defend her at all.
Speaker 2: She calls him out on it. But there's sensuality in
Speaker 2: the exchange you mentioned that line. That's all subtext for
Speaker 2: the actual heat that is starting to emerge between these
Speaker 2: two people. That great bit of dialogue you mentioned where
Speaker 2: he says that he hunches and she tells him not to.
Speaker 2: You know what's starting to come through there. And then
Speaker 2: in that kiss, it's a hot kiss. We get nothing
Speaker 2: like that any other superhero movie of recent vintage I
Speaker 2: can think of.
Speaker 1: Josh, Well, Adam, that's because you missed the eternals Where
Speaker 1: or just eternals? I think I should say where, you
Speaker 1: know Marvel really really moved into that. No, I'm just joking.
Speaker 1: There is a sex scene, but it is kind of
Speaker 1: it doesn't really work. Yes, you're right about the hotness
Speaker 1: of it, and it's something that I wondered watching at
Speaker 1: this time, is if this came from a comic book,
Speaker 1: you know, was this an image that was well known
Speaker 1: to Spider Man fans? Was it invented for the movie?
Speaker 1: Was it in the script? So did a little googling,
Speaker 1: and actually the Ringer just published something today I was
Speaker 1: reading at lunch, so this was perfect works out great
Speaker 1: for us. It's by Jake kring Screefles Shriefoles. Not sure
Speaker 1: how to pronounce that, but basically when Mary Jane kiss
Speaker 1: Spider Man is what it's titled. We'll link to it
Speaker 1: in the show notes because there's so many great details here,
Speaker 1: but just briefly, turns out, the basic idea came from
Speaker 1: Doug Leffler, who was the movie's second unit director and
Speaker 1: storyboard artist. He had stage scenes with characters upside down
Speaker 1: in his previous work as a TV director, so not
Speaker 1: necessarily kisses, but just this idea of having two characters
Speaker 1: in the frame, one of them upside down. So Leffler
Speaker 1: presented some sketches to Ramy Raymie loved it, and then
Speaker 1: producer Laura Ziskin actually is the one who suggested the
Speaker 1: crucial element of having MJ pulled down his mask just
Speaker 1: enough to reveal the lips. So all of that comes
Speaker 1: together to make this moment that I agree is legitimately iconic,
Speaker 1: and again we'll link to that in the show notes
Speaker 1: on the Ringer, but it's wonderful in so many ways.
Speaker 1: The ones you described. I like how it just uses
Speaker 1: the mask and you can sense that it's a real mask.
Speaker 1: You know, there's no cgi hear either on his face.
Speaker 1: It's something that is actually wet that has to be
Speaker 1: pulled down. I think that adds a lot to it.
Speaker 1: Going back to my Neighborville Sun review, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: skeptical about puns, Adam, but I did pull one out.
Speaker 1: I think I think this was me might have been
Speaker 1: our great JJ are great copied desk chief, but swinging
Speaker 1: in the rain not bad? Right? The headline for my
Speaker 1: review in two thousand and two. You pretty proud of me.
Speaker 3: You're okay with puns and titles, right or headlines?
Speaker 1: Titles and headlines, that's what you save them for. You
Speaker 1: have a knack for getting in trouble.
Speaker 3: You have a knack for saving my life. I think
Speaker 3: I have a superhero stock I was in the neighborhood.
Speaker 3: You are amazing.
Speaker 2: Some people don't think so, but you are nice to.
Speaker 1: Have a fan.
Speaker 3: Do you want to get to say thank you this time?
Speaker 1: Wait?
Speaker 2: So?
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a wonderful moment and it makes me
Speaker 1: think of a question. I want to get your take
Speaker 1: on do you think it was smart? It sounds like
Speaker 1: you do, and maybe you don't see it this way,
Speaker 1: but for this Spider Man to frame itself first and
Speaker 1: foremost as a romance, so rather than an action movie,
Speaker 1: rather even than an origin story. You know, you have
Speaker 1: that opening voiceover, we're told, this is about a girl.
Speaker 1: That's what this is about. We get so many scenes
Speaker 1: to their developing relationship in chemistry. Sounds like you're with me,
Speaker 1: agreeing that Maguire and Dunst are very good, especially together.
Speaker 1: And you already talked about that noteed ends on. It's
Speaker 1: all about she doesn't know, but she does, and she
Speaker 1: knows that because of the kiss. So so you're with me.
Speaker 1: It sounds like that that was a good moves to
Speaker 1: kind of frame it that way.
Speaker 2: I mean, I I think it's what ultimately does make
Speaker 2: the movie special. It's why we're still talking about it
Speaker 2: twenty years later. It's not because it gets the action right,
Speaker 2: though that's part of it. It's not that it's fun
Speaker 2: and all of these elements that we've been discussing, it's
Speaker 2: part of it. But I think really at its core,
Speaker 2: it's because we respond to those characters so much and
Speaker 2: we respond to that central love story. But overall, I
Speaker 2: think that's also indicative of what generally works about this movie,
Speaker 2: and you touched on it a little bit earlier, it
Speaker 2: is that it is self contained.
Speaker 3: That's the right word for it.
Speaker 2: It does have some intimacy in a lot of these scenes.
Speaker 2: You do feel as if all of the action revolves
Speaker 2: around these four or five central characters. Though ironically it's
Speaker 2: also a movie that gets right the fact that it
Speaker 2: takes place in New York and you feel as if
Speaker 2: there are real people living lives in the city, in
Speaker 2: contrast to I'll say it and I like many of
Speaker 2: these Marvel movies. We say this all the time. We've
Speaker 2: reviewed some of the very favorably on the show. But
Speaker 2: they have so many characters in it, and there's so
Speaker 2: much going on that you don't really ever get the
Speaker 2: sense that they exist in a real world, you know,
Speaker 2: or that there's stakes that affect real people. It tries
Speaker 2: to build that, and oftentimes succeeds in the relationships between
Speaker 2: those characters, but not on the scale that a movie
Speaker 2: like This Spider Man does. And the fact that you've
Speaker 2: got just this universe of characters, everything that's happening from
Speaker 2: a plot standpoint, from a story standpoint, from a thematic standpoint,
Speaker 2: all ties back to the characters and characters that you
Speaker 2: either care about or are really curious about, and they
Speaker 2: all have depth to them. I mean, yes, this is
Speaker 2: a movie about a teen ish grappling with changes and
Speaker 2: grappling with responsibility and what it means to be a man.
Speaker 2: But he's also at the end of the day, protecting
Speaker 2: the people he loves and the city he loves from
Speaker 2: a bad guy. And even that bad guy is someone
Speaker 2: that he has a personal connection to. So I think
Speaker 2: that heart is at the heart of what makes Spider
Speaker 2: Man so good.
Speaker 1: So should we turn to your favorite the getting to
Speaker 1: know his powers? Getting to learn his Powers sequence? Because
Speaker 1: for me, that's it. I think what this does, it
Speaker 1: sort of combines two of the great things about the movie.
Speaker 1: It's Ramy's skills as a filmmaker and McGuire's abilities as
Speaker 1: a performer. For this part in particular, I talked about
Speaker 1: the camera work and how about the movement As Peter
Speaker 1: starts crawling up that brick wall in the alley, right,
Speaker 1: we're looking down at him and it kind of just
Speaker 1: slides alongside of him and then watches him. It's a
Speaker 1: perfect example of waiting for your moment and then really
Speaker 1: going for it and putting us in that experience. And
Speaker 1: then even when we get you know, Spider Man swinging
Speaker 1: around and it's a little more clumsy as it should
Speaker 1: be in these opening sequences. I like the patience Raimi
Speaker 1: has for wide screen compositions for a lot of the action.
Speaker 1: This isn't edited to death, right, and you get a
Speaker 1: little bit of that here. I think you get more
Speaker 1: of it as Peter is more confident in his abilities
Speaker 1: and we're just kind of taking in the skyline that
Speaker 1: he's swinging through without having to have it be chopped
Speaker 1: up in so many edits. So I like Raymie's camera
Speaker 1: work and filmmaking prowess here, but also McGuire, I mean,
Speaker 1: he you know, is it just nostalgia that I think
Speaker 1: he's the best Spider Man we have. I really like
Speaker 1: Tom holland you know Andrew Garfield that those films just
Speaker 1: they never quite worked for me, and as much as
Speaker 1: I like him as an actor, it didn't seem like
Speaker 1: the greatest fit. But maguire here gets the nerdiness down,
Speaker 1: which I think is the most important quality for this character.
Speaker 1: I love his froggy smile when he doesn't open his
Speaker 1: mouth and it just kind of like starts spreading, but
Speaker 1: he's not going to fully commit because there it's that
Speaker 1: little bit of security that he brings. And going back
Speaker 1: to your pick, this enthusiasm he has for his powers,
Speaker 1: just the excitement he's expressing, the fun. How fun would
Speaker 1: it be to be Spider Man? No one ever really
Speaker 1: thought it would be fun to be Batman when you
Speaker 1: were a kid. You know, it seemed maybe the TV
Speaker 1: show okay, yeah, you tell it about pretty cool, but
Speaker 1: you know, the comic Batman, the more intense traumatized Batman,
Speaker 1: Spider Man seemed like it would be great fun. And
Speaker 1: that's what McGuire taps into in this opening sequence or
Speaker 1: this early sequence.
Speaker 2: I should say, yeah, for sure, I remember having that
Speaker 2: same feeling you described in the theater when I saw
Speaker 2: it in two thousand and two, and I had a
Speaker 2: similar feeling watching it again, and I think it's for
Speaker 2: all the reasons that you express. I'll also say that
Speaker 2: it's another one of those scenes that gets back to
Speaker 2: the point about the DNA of what attracts us to
Speaker 2: superhero movies. In the first place, and what the best
Speaker 2: ones do and do well. It makes me think of
Speaker 2: Donner's Superman in particular, and a younger Clark Kent discovering
Speaker 2: his powers and having some fun running along the train,
Speaker 2: kicking the football, doing some of those different things that
Speaker 2: he does. We see that here in this scene with
Speaker 2: Peter Parker and the montage. I'll get away from the
Speaker 2: scene a little bit, but it follows pretty quickly as
Speaker 2: he starts to accept his responsibility, that montage of him
Speaker 2: forwarding various crimes. That's something you see in Batman two.
Speaker 2: You probably see in every superhero movie, at least every
Speaker 2: origin story to an extent, But here you've got that
Speaker 2: playfulness about it. As Sophie said, unlike watching the Batman movies,
Speaker 2: and she likes those Nolan movies too, but it never
Speaker 2: feels like a drag. In fact, it feels really fun
Speaker 2: as you watch those scenes here, and I think this
Speaker 2: is the most fun scene in the film, and I
Speaker 2: think at its core, to go back to where we started,
Speaker 2: it's the scene that encapsulates everything that drew us to
Speaker 2: Spider Man in the first place as kids. It is
Speaker 2: both the fantasy and the imagination part, the part where
Speaker 2: he gets to do things above and beyond his normal capabilities.
Speaker 2: But it also has him failing, It has him learning,
Speaker 2: It has him having to figure things out. And so
Speaker 2: that same part of us where you know you were
Speaker 2: you were climbing on the stairs a certain way. You
Speaker 2: probably fell, you know, you're climbing up the side of
Speaker 2: the stairs. Your mom told you not to, but you
Speaker 2: think you're being just like there. Yeah, the first time
Speaker 2: you fall, just like he does here, right, But then
Speaker 2: but then you figure it out and in your mind
Speaker 2: you're You're Spider Man.
Speaker 1: It's all there, It's all right, all right. So one
Speaker 1: more thing, for sure, I wanted to touch on, just
Speaker 1: because there's there was so much talk about turning red,
Speaker 1: you know, and female adolescence and puberty and are we
Speaker 1: really going to have a movie about menstruation? I can't.
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of people, including us, I think,
Speaker 1: appreciated that sort of honesty and that freshness, and other
Speaker 1: people were like, I can't believe this is happening in
Speaker 1: a movie for kids. I mean, this thing as a
Speaker 1: puberty parable is pretty incredible, right, Uncle Ben mentioning very
Speaker 1: early on hormones teenagers to May Peter alone in his room,
Speaker 1: dealing with sticky substances, and it goes beyond the physical changes, right,
Speaker 1: it's also marx the relationship. The relational changes that happen
Speaker 1: during those years are really sort of and again this
Speaker 1: is probably because I'm an older parent at this point.
Speaker 1: But how about the moment where he and Uncle Ben are.
Speaker 1: You know, they clearly have a good connection here together,
Speaker 1: and Cliff Robertson is Uncle Ben of course, wonderful performance
Speaker 1: and they're talking about painting when he comes home from school,
Speaker 1: We're gonna paint. I think it's the kitchen or whatever, right, sure,
Speaker 1: thing that is what the afternoon he gets he discovers
Speaker 1: his powers and goes on the exact sequence we were
Speaker 1: just talking about. That's the joy ride. That's taking out
Speaker 1: the car with your friends, forgetting what you promised, the
Speaker 1: person in your life who your responsive cares about you,
Speaker 1: who cares about you, right, And to me, it was
Speaker 1: just like, oh, and then what do you get the
Speaker 1: little the note about his supper still you know, no
Speaker 1: like waiting for him to come home and screaming him
Speaker 1: out just to note your supper is still waiting for you.
Speaker 1: And you don't get the sense. It's like a guilt
Speaker 1: trip thing either, it's they wanted to make sure he
Speaker 1: ate So all of that I think is tied into
Speaker 1: this As a puberty parable is just charting, you know,
Speaker 1: some nods to the physical changes, but also noticing the
Speaker 1: relational element as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, even the last thing he says to him, his rebuke,
Speaker 2: is something you can imagine that he'd never probably said
Speaker 2: to him before, and yeah, what have said to him prior?
Speaker 2: He's accepted him as his father his entire life, and
Speaker 2: yet post change, as he's dealing with this and post
Speaker 2: his transformation, now he's standing up to him, if you
Speaker 2: will and saying, well, you're not my father and gets
Speaker 2: out of the car. So that that relationship element between
Speaker 2: the adults, between the parents in this case and the
Speaker 2: sun is very much at play. I do think it's
Speaker 2: something that works about the film. I don't think it's
Speaker 2: a big shock either. If you recall, I think that
Speaker 2: Raymi deals with to go back to turning red menstruation
Speaker 2: as a very dominant metaphor all the blood that's happening
Speaker 2: in Evil Dead. He's playing with similar ideas in that
Speaker 2: film as he is here in Spider Man. But you're right,
Speaker 2: the fact that that moment where he says, don't come in,
Speaker 2: I'm not dressed, and then he turns around and there's
Speaker 2: there's webs everywhere. I mean, that's hilarious. And the fact
Speaker 2: that he's he's generating these substances by himself the verses
Speaker 2: and of course they talk about this and no way home.
Speaker 2: The fact that he can produce that substance on his
Speaker 2: own versus it being something that he has to actually manufacture.
Speaker 2: I do like that touch for all the reasons that
Speaker 2: you articulated. There's still a part of me too that
Speaker 2: kind of puts that in the funny camp factor of
Speaker 2: the film as well, because, as I alluded to earlier,
Speaker 2: he's eighteen or something right, like he's about to graduate
Speaker 2: high school.
Speaker 3: Well, and they talk about him like he's fourteen and
Speaker 3: going through it.
Speaker 1: Well, we're definitely still in the era of like clearly
Speaker 1: thirty eight year olds playing teenagers. When it comes to
Speaker 1: like Flash in the bullying scenes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's jubaman Ganello in his first ever screen performance.
Speaker 3: Wow recognizable. I did not catch that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're wondering if Flash is is Flash like his
Speaker 1: classmate or is it grandparent s day? Not quite sure?
Speaker 3: Exactly well.
Speaker 2: We obviously had fun with Spider Man, and if you
Speaker 2: have seen the film recently, it's available to rent on
Speaker 2: most platforms. You may also find a two thousand and
Speaker 2: two era DVD is your local library.
Speaker 3: We'd love to hear your thoughts. You can email us
Speaker 3: feedback at Filmspotting dot.
Speaker 2: Mat More Spider Man Talk coming on Friday with our
Speaker 2: top five Spider Man scenes. We will have to wait
Speaker 2: in suspense to find out, Josh, whether or not any
Speaker 2: of those moments make your list.
Speaker 1: I can't wait just as long as I didn't say
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Speaker 3: This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.
Speaker 1: Good Bye
Speaker 3: Everything,