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Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust me?

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Speaker 2: I ever lead you astray?

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Speaker 1: Trust?

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Speaker 2: This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 3: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 3: welcome to trust me. The podcast about colts, extreme belief

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Speaker 3: and manipulation from two Dark Tourists who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 3: I am low La Blanc of course, and I'm Meg

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Speaker 3: and Elizabeth of course. Questions, Sorry, it's a question, who

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Speaker 3: are you really, Megan?

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Today our guest is David Ferrier, journalist and filmmaker known

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Speaker 3: for documentaries like Tickled and the Netflix series Dark Tourists.

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Speaker 3: He'll tell us about some of his work studying strange

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Speaker 3: subcultures and conspiracy theorists and what he's learned along the way,

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Speaker 3: and then he'll delve into his investigation into a Rised Church,

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Speaker 3: the largest megachurch in New Zealand, and its former leader,

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Speaker 3: John Cameron.

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Speaker 5: He'll explain how his interviews with ex members revealed the

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Speaker 5: church's systemic patterns of demanding unpaid internships with extreme work

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Speaker 5: hours that led to multiple memory having mental breakdowns, and

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Speaker 5: the financial exploitation and sexual assault cover ups that occurred.

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Speaker 5: Will learn how it all got exposed and what became

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Speaker 5: of the church afterwards.

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Speaker 3: Plus a couple of tangents, including one about Hell House,

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Speaker 3: the evangelical run haunted house that simulates how to scare

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Speaker 3: you into joining. There's so much to get into, and

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Speaker 3: we have to go there. We will talk more about it,

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Speaker 3: but before we do, Megan, what's your cultiest.

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Speaker 2: Thing of the week.

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Speaker 5: Well, my cultiest thing this week is actually kind of

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Speaker 5: pro cults, okay, go on, which growing up, you know,

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Speaker 5: felt a little sad, but as an adult, I've just

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Speaker 5: kind of kept it. And reflecting on this past holiday season,

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Speaker 5: I realized I kind of love it. Why because I

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Speaker 5: can go to some a few Christmas parties I accidentally

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Speaker 5: missed yours, actually, but I can like go to some

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Speaker 5: Christmas parties, get a few things, you know here and there,

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Speaker 5: enjoy lights and stuff. But like, I don't have to

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Speaker 5: buy my family Christmas gifts. They don't have to buy

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Speaker 5: me Christmas grifts. I just tell my friends, don't get

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Speaker 5: me a Christmas gift. I don't want it, I don't care.

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Speaker 5: Just the financial strain people go through for Christmas actually

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Speaker 5: breaks my heart.

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Speaker 4: So I've bout out of it.

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Speaker 5: Thank you two by twos for giving me one perk

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Speaker 5: in life, which is that I don't have to buy

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Speaker 5: what essentially is.

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Speaker 4: A car every year.

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Speaker 3: For people, I think I forgot you were like Jehovah's witnesses,

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Speaker 3: Like you just didn't do Christmas.

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Speaker 4: No Christmas, no Easter.

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Speaker 5: We were allowed to do holidays that didn't have to

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Speaker 5: do with Jesus, like we had birthdays and stuff. But okay,

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Speaker 5: the two by twos would say, every day is Jesus's birthday,

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Speaker 5: and I celebrate him every day. But oddly I was

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Speaker 5: allowed And I don't know if this was for most

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Speaker 5: people and the two by twoes, but I was allowed

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Speaker 5: to celebrate Halloween. Thank gosh, thank gosh, thank God, thank gosh.

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Speaker 5: You know, like a lot of people who weren't even

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Speaker 5: that Christian weren't allowed to love he Alloween.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, Harry Potter.

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Speaker 5: I was allowed to dress like a wedge and like,

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Speaker 5: that's so surprising, it's so strange. But like as soon

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Speaker 5: as Christmas rolled around, it was like, no, no to that.

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Speaker 2: Well, I love that for you.

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Speaker 5: Thinks I am free from the financial burden of Christmas

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Speaker 5: and that, my friend, is gift enough for me.

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Speaker 2: Oh it's beautiful.

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Speaker 5: What about you? What's your cultist thing.

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Speaker 3: Well, I learned about a cult that I did not

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Speaker 3: know about. I mean, and tell me if I'm wrong

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Speaker 3: and just completely eracist from my memory? Have we talked

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Speaker 3: about the Summum cult in Utah?

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Speaker 4: Okay?

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Speaker 3: I was at a party, randomly walked by some girl

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Speaker 3: and I hear her saying do you know what the

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Speaker 3: Zizzians are? To someone else? And I stopped and interrupted

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Speaker 3: and was like.

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Speaker 2: Oh, the Cizians. That cult would kill people.

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Speaker 3: And then we started talking about cult and she was like,

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Speaker 3: what about the some you guys know about that? And

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Speaker 3: I was like, well, I don't know what that is.

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Speaker 3: And it's this new religious movement in Salt Lake that

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Speaker 3: has a fucking pyramid, because okay, let me let me

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Speaker 3: give you an overview here.

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Speaker 2: It began in nineteen seventy five.

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Speaker 3: The owner, of course, had an encounter with beings he

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Speaker 3: described as Samma individuals blah blah blah. They gave him

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Speaker 3: mama individual no idea, but I think it's like an

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Speaker 3: alien or an angel or whatever the fuck like as mystical.

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Speaker 2: But those are the same thing. Okay, gat got you.

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Speaker 3: So their advanced beings is what they are. So he

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Speaker 3: founded the someone in order to share this gift with others,

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Speaker 3: and they began selling wine they call the Wine Nectar publications.

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Speaker 3: But one of the primary tenets of this group is mummification,

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Speaker 3: and he himself was mummified by the group. He died

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and eight. His body is encased inside

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Speaker 3: a bronze mammaform casket that's covered in gold and stands

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Speaker 3: inside the group's pyramid. If you go on their website,

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Speaker 3: it offers mummification as an option for your loved one,

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Speaker 3: and I'm going to read some of the offerings to

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Speaker 3: you right now. A very thorough detailed, yet gentle process

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Speaker 3: that allows one to be memorialized for eternity. Mummification is

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Speaker 3: the only form of permanent preservation. The rights of mummification

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Speaker 3: of transference allow you to leave this life in as

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Speaker 3: beautiful a manner as possible.

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Speaker 2: Blah blah blah.

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Speaker 3: A synthesis of medical technology, modern chemistry, and esoteric art. Oh,

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Speaker 3: they have a rights preserved symbol after what they've termed

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Speaker 3: modern mummification. And the current costs for a human is

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Speaker 3: sixty seven thousand dollars. Within the continental US. You have

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Speaker 3: the option of choosing an artistic mamma form or a

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Speaker 3: capsule mammiform. They vary widely in costs, from tens of

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Speaker 3: thousands of dollars to well over one hundred thousand dollars,

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Speaker 3: depending on how elaborate it is.

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Speaker 5: Why wouldn't you just get yourself taxi dermaid? Right, I've

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Speaker 5: thought about that. I feel like that'd be a fun

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Speaker 5: way to go. Yeah, it's like, what six hundred dollars? Okay,

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Speaker 5: that'st effective.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 5: Why do they think the mummification process matters? It's like

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Speaker 5: a spiritual, like kind of Egyptian thought process. I don't know,

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Speaker 5: it's all this is an episode. It seems like, yeah.

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Speaker 3: They're just like that's what they that's what the beings

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Speaker 3: told them, and that's what they landed on. And so

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Speaker 3: you can drink their wine or you can purchase their

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Speaker 3: mummification services, and that is how they are surviving as

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Speaker 3: a group.

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Speaker 5: You know what, I'm going to start with the wine,

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Speaker 5: even though I'm sober. Oh, I'm going to start with

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Speaker 5: the momification.

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Speaker 2: What I mean?

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Speaker 3: But I think you can like visit and like see

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Speaker 3: the pyramid. I'm like, how, as a person partially from Utah,

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Speaker 3: did I not know this existed?

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Speaker 2: This is like a place in Salt Lake.

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Speaker 5: I think we should go visit it called road trip. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: road trip, I think that should be one of our

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Speaker 5: first YouTube's. Oh, our first YouTube.

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Speaker 4: Let's do it.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna do YouTube, you guys, it's gonna happen.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, let's do that.

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Speaker 5: And then I just wanted to shout out, are you

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Speaker 5: done talking about this pyramid? Or yeah, I'm so done

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Speaker 5: talking about this, because I just wanted to say that

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Speaker 5: David's a part of something that I've been really interested in.

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Speaker 5: It started last year a few two by twos, I know,

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Speaker 5: talk Data. It's the Decult Conference in New Zealand. It's

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Speaker 5: the first cult awareness summit in the region, bringing together

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Speaker 5: survivors and researchers. So, you know, New Zealand's pretty isolated.

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Speaker 5: It's pretty easy for some cults to gain a lot

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Speaker 5: of traction there because isolation is one of the first

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Speaker 5: things colts right off of. So David so cool, He's

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Speaker 5: part of it. He's such an interesting dude. And yeah,

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Speaker 5: what a what a life, what a career, what a

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Speaker 5: crazy fascinating I'm excited for you all to hear them.

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Speaker 4: Should we jump in with them?

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Speaker 2: Let's jump on in welcome David Ferrier to trust me

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Speaker 2: in person.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, it's nice to be here.

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Speaker 2: Nice to have you here.

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Speaker 1: I love your space, I love your bookshelf. I love

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Speaker 1: the plants.

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Speaker 3: Oh god, thank you so much. We're not responsible for

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Speaker 3: most of those things, but.

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Speaker 1: Just take credit for it.

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Speaker 2: The one thing he didn't say was the people.

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Speaker 1: So I'm about to learn about the people, you know.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to go too soon.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, you have so much rich career history. We

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Speaker 3: have to talk a little bit about that. How did

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Speaker 3: you start doing journalism on weird dark Shit?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it started in as you can tell from the accident,

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Speaker 1: it started in New Zealand, probably in about two thousand

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Speaker 1: and five when I graduated from journalism school. And I

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Speaker 1: was super lucky in that New Zealand is so small.

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Speaker 1: We have five million people, so we only have two newsrooms.

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Speaker 1: You can really work in television, and I ended up

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Speaker 1: in one of those, and I ended up with basically

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Speaker 1: the job of filling in the sort of late news

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Speaker 1: arts and entertainment slot, which is basically means I could

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Speaker 1: do a two minute story on whatever I wanted, And

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Speaker 1: so I just gravitated down to sort of like do

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Speaker 1: you know Louis throw do you know who work? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So I obsessively watched his stuff around this time, and

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Speaker 1: so my whole brain is just like, yeah, why I

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Speaker 1: do a similar thing to Louis but in New Zealand,

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Speaker 1: and so I gravitated to those kind of stories.

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Speaker 4: Who is Louis?

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Speaker 1: He's like British me, He's he's much better. I'm not

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Speaker 1: being modest. He's really good at what he does. And

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Speaker 1: he makes these documentaries where he's very he's in the

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Speaker 1: scene and he's When he started doing his work, there

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Speaker 1: was this idea in documentary that he had to be

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Speaker 1: the sort of gods I view and not be too

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Speaker 1: like participatory in it, whereas he would get involved. So

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Speaker 1: he would go to a swingers party to learn about

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Speaker 1: swingers and he would join in, or he'd learn about

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Speaker 1: porn stars in LA and he'd go and audition to

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Speaker 1: be a porn.

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Speaker 2: He was with the Westboro Baptist Church, recalling he was.

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Speaker 1: The one that really put Westboro Baptist on the map,

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Speaker 1: like his documentaries were the ones that put them out there.

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Speaker 1: So I love his work so much, and he gets

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Speaker 1: very culty and very very niche kind of subjects.

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Speaker 3: And he's so cute, non threatening that everyone just like

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Speaker 3: takes to him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly it. Because he's got this really soft

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Speaker 1: British voice, and so when he comes to America to

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Speaker 1: do his work, people don't really know what to make

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Speaker 1: of him, and so he can put forth really offensive,

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Speaker 1: intense questions to a Nazi, say, and they don't know

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Speaker 1: that he's being confrontational. They just think, oh, he's this

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Speaker 1: cute little British man, okay, which is kind of what

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Speaker 1: I do in America a little bit as well. Now,

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Speaker 1: whereas I think my New Zealand accent, some people don't

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Speaker 1: know what to do with it, and it can be

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Speaker 1: really helpful when you're in confrontational situations. So fast forward

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Speaker 1: to twenty fourteen. I've been in the newsroom for maybe

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Speaker 1: almost a decade, and I left to make my first

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Speaker 1: feature documentary, Tickles, and that was kind of where I

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Speaker 1: went really leaned into that Louis way of just trying

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Speaker 1: to be never confrontational but just curious. And I was

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Speaker 1: up against some sort of pretty horrific Americans and I

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Speaker 1: was in their faces, but I was doing it in

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Speaker 1: a very gentle way, and that kind of made the

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Speaker 1: whole documentary work.

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Speaker 5: I mean that was about my ex boyfriend was obsessed

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Speaker 5: with that documentary.

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Speaker 2: Everybody was yeah, yeah, it was like, I mean.

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Speaker 5: I liked it, it was great, but like he was

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Speaker 5: obsessed with.

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Speaker 4: Tickle.

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Speaker 3: It was about competitive tickling, right for people who was

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Speaker 3: kind of yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: It was essentially I noticed it was a very it's

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Speaker 1: a very strange story to explain, but essentially, young men

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Speaker 1: from all around the world were being flown to Los Angeles.

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Speaker 1: So there were New Zealanders being flown in and they

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Speaker 1: would take part in competitive endurance tickling. So they were

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Speaker 1: all in Adida Sports where they'd tie each other down

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Speaker 1: and they would tickle, and the whole thing was marketed

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Speaker 1: as this sort of sport. And I reached out from

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Speaker 1: New Zealand, going I'd love to do a little story

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Speaker 1: on this interesting thing because New Zealand is a taking

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Speaker 1: part and really quickly I got a response, we will

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Speaker 1: never deal with a homosexual journalist, and so that obviously

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Speaker 1: googled me, seeing that I was in a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a man at the time, and we're like and so

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Speaker 1: I was like, this is the gayest shit I my life,

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Speaker 1: Like what And so I was like Oh, there's something

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Speaker 1: weird going on. It's not just a tickling competition. And

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Speaker 1: so I started sort of pushing deeper in and then

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Speaker 1: about a month into that, they said, we're flying two

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Speaker 1: lawyers from New York to New Zealand to talk with

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Speaker 1: you about why you shouldn't do this documentary.

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Speaker 2: Wow, two straight lawyers, too straight?

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Speaker 1: You're very straight? Now, very straight? One of them did

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Speaker 1: seem quite gay, actually, but I didn't bring that up.

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Speaker 1: So that started this really insane journey that ended up

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Speaker 1: with me coming to America my tiny little crew and

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Speaker 1: having some really intense you know, this movie got to

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Speaker 1: be about not just tickling. It goes like quite dark,

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Speaker 1: and again that Louis throa thing of just trying to

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Speaker 1: be disarming and just being like, hey, this seems like

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Speaker 1: a really abusive situation happening right now, and sort of

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Speaker 1: doing it in a very low key way that seemed

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Speaker 1: to work for the tone we ended up with.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so then you created a series where you got.

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Speaker 2: To do more of that.

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Speaker 1: I did. Yeah. So out of that, out of Tickled

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Speaker 1: made Darkturist for Netflix, which was basically a show looking

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Speaker 1: at dark tourism, where the whole concept of dark tourism

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Speaker 1: being instead of going on a beautiful holiday somewhere to

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Speaker 1: a resort, people get a kick out of going somewhere

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Speaker 1: where something awful has happened. So they might go to

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Speaker 1: you know, Chernobyl, or they might go to somewhere where

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Speaker 1: there's been some horrific massacre, or we ended up in

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Speaker 1: a radioactive zone in Japan, and so we were looking

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Speaker 1: at the types of people attracted to these places and

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Speaker 1: also the type of people monetizing these tragedies to make

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Speaker 1: a tourist attraction out of them. And so that was

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Speaker 1: an eight part show which was insane to make and

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Speaker 1: I feel incredibly lucky to have made it. And then

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Speaker 1: from there, I made another documentary about a strange, kind

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Speaker 1: of unusual man called Michael Organ in New Zealand, and

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Speaker 1: I made that for Netflix, and that's another kind of

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Speaker 1: story about a man who's kind of pulling the strings,

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Speaker 1: which is very similar to what Tickled was. Yes, And

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Speaker 1: now I make a podcast called Flight This Bird about

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Speaker 1: the weird parts of America. And when I'm not doing that,

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Speaker 1: I write an investigative journalism newsletter which kind of delves

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Speaker 1: into stuff that I feel you guys talk a lot

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Speaker 1: about which is a lot of culty, mainly within religion

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Speaker 1: and specifically within Christianity, because that was my background. I

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Speaker 1: grew up in the church, and so and where brom

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Speaker 1: I started exploring some sort of high control religions, specifically

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Speaker 1: in New Zealand, because those churches mimicked a lot of

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Speaker 1: American models. There was a lot of crossover, I think,

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Speaker 1: and so my readership on webwerem as i'd say, half

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Speaker 1: New Zealand half American.

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Speaker 3: Oh interesting, Yeah, you have written so much about conspiracy theories.

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Speaker 3: I clicked on that sort of page you have of

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Speaker 3: all of the articles.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there were so many. Yeah, that's the other thing

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Speaker 1: that's right. Before sort of high control religions, webworm was

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Speaker 1: very focused on conspiracy content. And that's because I was

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Speaker 1: in New Zealand when COVID hit and New Zealand took

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Speaker 1: a very lockdown approach. So our government was very like,

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Speaker 1: let's not let COVID in. Let's try and keep this

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Speaker 1: away for as long as possible and save as many

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Speaker 1: lives as possible. And when that happened, a bunch of

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Speaker 1: little factions sort of popped up in New Zealand of

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Speaker 1: really extreme what we saw the world over but really

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Speaker 1: extreme skepticism towards vaccines, And then we saw things like QAnon.

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Speaker 1: Deep into New Zealand, people were attacking five G cell

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Speaker 1: towers because they thought that COVID was combining with five

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Speaker 1: gs somehow magically, and that was the vector. So I

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Speaker 1: got really intrigued by looking at you know, why are

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Speaker 1: New Zealanders who are these really seen as quite rational,

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Speaker 1: sort of down to earth people. Why are we getting

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Speaker 1: no offense to Americans, but why are we going Americas americanized?

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Speaker 1: So I was really curious about that.

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Speaker 4: Interesting.

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Speaker 3: What is it in you like what draws you to

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Speaker 3: these topics?

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Speaker 1: I think I So I grew up in quite a

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Speaker 1: like a very not very like a reasonably conservative kind

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Speaker 1: of Christian home. So I had a very sheltered upbringing,

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Speaker 1: so I wasn't really exposed to like a lot of

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Speaker 1: secular music, and it was a very kind of black

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Speaker 1: and white world. And so when I went to university

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Speaker 1: to study journalism, I just it's a typical thing. You

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Speaker 1: go to university and you discover there's a whole other

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Speaker 1: world out there.

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Speaker 2: You heard a rock song for the first time.

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Speaker 1: Kind yeah, to be honest, kind of it was a

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Speaker 1: bit like that, and I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: there's this whole other world. And I think instead of

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Speaker 1: just sort of dabbling, I sort of combined that with

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Speaker 1: my interest in journalism of being like, this is an

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Speaker 1: amazing way to tell stories about these really niche areas

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Speaker 1: of society and I get to selfishly dabble in those

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Speaker 1: and sort of see what they're all about. I found

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Speaker 1: that really fun. I love the idea of bringing those

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Speaker 1: things to a screen in New Zealand. And then that

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Speaker 1: just kind of snowballed into almost everything I do, which is, yeah,

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Speaker 1: just treating everything with curiosity and every day I kind

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Speaker 1: of can't believe. I mean, you just would be the

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Speaker 1: same thing with what you do. It's that you can't

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Speaker 1: believe what you're seeing in front of you. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: how is this happening? Like why is it happening? And

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Speaker 1: I just kind of want to get to the bottom

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Speaker 1: of all of.

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Speaker 4: That stuff totally.

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Speaker 3: Well, we want to ask you about a rised church,

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Speaker 3: but I just feel because there's so much conspiracy content

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Speaker 3: on your website, like, yeah, do you have any per

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Speaker 3: particular thoughts on how to engage with conspiracy theorists or

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Speaker 3: why or how it happens a big question.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the stuff we're all kind of

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Speaker 1: trying to grapple with. And I think I think it's

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Speaker 1: most simple. Like people that are drawn into these conspiracy

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Speaker 1: kind of rabbit holes, I see it as in a

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Speaker 1: very similar way to people that are drawn into certain religions.

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Speaker 1: It's a simple answer to something that's incredibly complicated, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's I feel like that's an idea that

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Speaker 1: we've sort of gotten a bit more used to now

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Speaker 1: since the pandemic, and I think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: have sort of taken more interest in going, why are

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Speaker 1: people talking about these crazy things? And I think it

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Speaker 1: really is that simple. I think it's just people look

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Speaker 1: at this very scary, confusing world and it's much easier

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Speaker 1: to go, oh, there's this giant thing behind the scenes

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Speaker 1: pulling all the strings, and that is an explanation that

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Speaker 1: kind of lets you off the hook for how crazy

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Speaker 1: the world is. And then I think once you go

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Speaker 1: down that road, it's a bit like religion, where once

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Speaker 1: you're kind of locked into it, it's really hard to

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Speaker 1: get yourself out of it, because to get yourself out

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Speaker 1: of it, you've got to admit that maybe some of

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Speaker 1: my ideas were not correct, and that's really embarrassing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like it's really embarrassing to come out of that.

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Speaker 4: We had an ex q and on remember was he

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Speaker 4: from New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: Oh god, he might have been let's just say Australia.

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Speaker 4: Put it on in Australia.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but he you know, it was something he really

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Speaker 5: bonded with his father over. So then to say, oh,

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Speaker 5: I don't believe this anymore was like a fraction in

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Speaker 5: that relationship that he at the time of our interview

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Speaker 5: was not able to repair.

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Speaker 1: So he's like lost his father exiting from that, which

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Speaker 1: is like horrific. That stuff horrible and people are it

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Speaker 1: is also that thing of it is a social thing.

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Speaker 1: I think, especially during the pandemic, people found themselves on

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Speaker 1: message boards and group chats and it was something we

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Speaker 1: have all got this common language to talk about out.

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Speaker 1: And also I think it's this idea that you're solving

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Speaker 1: a puzzle, because once you go down a conspiracy rabbit hole,

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Speaker 1: it's like you're being a detective and you're trying to

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Speaker 1: like solve the and you're swapping information. It's so exciting.

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Speaker 3: It seems exciting to me, Yeah, I'm going to solve

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Speaker 3: the like all of the world's problems with one easy answer,

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Speaker 3: which ends up being actually many complicated answers because of

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Speaker 3: the mental gymnastics that you have to do.

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Speaker 2: But like, yeah, it seems fine.

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Speaker 1: Speaking about mental gymnastics. I feel like the way I've

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Speaker 1: noticed people get out of it mainly, you know, often

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Speaker 1: it's just coming to these conclusions on your own. And

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Speaker 1: what it feels like to me with people i've observed

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Speaker 1: sort of snapping out of it is the logic just

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Speaker 1: goes a step too far, Like it literally gets a

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Speaker 1: bit too crazy, and if one bit of information gets

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Speaker 1: a bit too intense, the rest of that kind of

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Speaker 1: structure can shatter. And so there's a technique that I

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Speaker 1: was told sort of if you've got a friend or

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Speaker 1: a loved one that's deep down the rabbit hole, instead

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Speaker 1: of just sort of arguing with them endlessly. I believe

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Speaker 1: I might be wrong on this. I think the term

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Speaker 1: is like steel manning, and so instead of like trying

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Speaker 1: to like poke holes in their argument, you basically just

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Speaker 1: you just ask some questions, like it's straw manning, that's the.

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Speaker 5: Usual everyone, Yeah, that's steel is like building up their argument.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, you lean into it and you go, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: so nine to eleven, you know, you know, so how

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Speaker 1: were the bombs planted in the building? You know, the

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Speaker 1: steel being just you just get them to explain things

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Speaker 1: more and more, and the more people explain it, eventually

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Speaker 1: they might get to a point where as they try

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Speaker 1: and explain this thing in this conspiratorial way, their own

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Speaker 1: explanation is a step too far for them when they

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Speaker 1: start to kind of like get stumped.

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Speaker 3: It is interesting how once something is verbalized, it becomes

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Speaker 3: more real in a way, a completely When you're just

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Speaker 3: in your head, it seems more plausible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, completely one. And I think you can have things

440
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,400
Speaker 1: buzzing around in your head that seem logical. You try

441
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 1: and explain it to someone and that's where you see

442
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 1: your arguments starting to fall over.

443
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,880
Speaker 2: Therapy.

444
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's journalists journal to be doing.

445
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 3: Well, look at what I've written, I'm like, I am

446
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 3: kidding myself, ridiculous.

447
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, totally.

448
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 2: Well love that insight, thank you.

449
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good one.

450
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, So tell us how you came to investigate a

451
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 3: Rise church.

452
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 1: So a Rise is New Zealand's or was New Zealand's

453
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 1: biggest megachurch. So you've got Hillsong here in America that

454
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 1: was is do you know Hillsong. Oh, yeah, it's a

455
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: big one. It's less big now, it's kind of fracturing.

456
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 1: But Hillsong was actually founded by originally by a New

457
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 1: Zealander and so the model of Hillsong was a New

458
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 1: Zealand idea got exported to America kind of came back

459
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 1: to New Zealand. And so in New Zealand, we have

460
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 1: a bunch of these big charismatic Pentecostal churches and they're

461
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 1: largely seem pretty like not very offensive. From the outside.

462
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: They look very like the congregations families. It's a lot

463
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,439
Speaker 1: of white people. It's very generic, and they're not particularly

464
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,239
Speaker 1: loud about anything politically. They're just getting on with what

465
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: they do. And so in New Zealand there's a few

466
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 1: churches that do get criticized. One of them is an

467
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 1: incredibly culty church called Destiny Church, which is it's largely

468
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 1: not white, so it's a large Maldi population in there

469
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 1: and Pacific population, and so that church sort of because

470
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 1: they're loud, because they stand out and they're not generically white,

471
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 1: they get criticized by the media all the time for

472
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: some of their some of they are incredibly the leadership

473
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 1: is incredibly manipulative and awful. And so while that criticism

474
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: was happening, I was looking at these other churches that

475
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 1: were much bigger that we're getting zero criticism, and I

476
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: sort of became curious about what those churches were doing

477
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: and whether their behavior was like hell Song, And so

478
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: I started talking to x men and certainly interns that

479
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: had volunteered and given their time, and just found this

480
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: incredibly manipulative system where the leaders of that church was

481
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: the leader John Cameron and his wife. They were so manipulative,

482
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: and they had church members so under their fingers they

483
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 1: people felt they couldn't leave. The interns were burning out

484
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: and giving so much of their time. There were sexual

485
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: assault allegations just being swept under the carpet, all the

486
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: stuff that you probably if you've looked at these churches,

487
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: you're kind of like, oh, of course, But at the

488
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: time in New Zealand three years ago, it was just

489
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: completely unknown. And so when I started writing about that,

490
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: the whole thing kind of blew up and it became

491
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 1: a big story in New Zealand. It was on the

492
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 1: six o'clock news, was in all our newspapers as more

493
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: and more interns came out going yeah that we had

494
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 1: a horrific time here and this was awful and it

495
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 1: led to the resignation of the leadership. John Cameron left,

496
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 1: which was great, and that church's fractured. But of course

497
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: what has happened and literally in the last six months

498
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 1: is those leaders have now opened up churches across the

499
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 1: ditch in Australia and they're using the same model just

500
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: to start again, which is I feel like something we

501
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: see in so many of these places right again and again.

502
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 2: And what is the model? Is it like a lot

503
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: of live music.

504
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 1: It's yeah, so's it's happy clappy, very modern. They have

505
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: a really slick band. So you walk into this church

506
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: and they're very targeted at youth, and so they do

507
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: a lot of their recruitment at university open days. They'll

508
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 1: get students who are maybe a bit like lost and

509
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: looking for a community and they'll say, hey, we're having

510
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: like a big pizza night this night down the road,

511
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: come and join in, and.

512
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 5: So they joined it, yep, going yeah, So it's.

513
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: Like it's that thing. It's like, oh, yeah'll do this thing.

514
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: It seems cool and fun, and so they have a

515
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: huge turnover. But they basically get young people and they

516
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,959
Speaker 1: use them to staff all of their church services and

517
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: do all the hard work for no money. And they're

518
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: just getting volume in, just more and more people, and

519
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 1: then of course pressuring them to tithe ten percent, because

520
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: that's what the Bible says, you know, And these are

521
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: students that have student loans and can't afford it. Some

522
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: of them stay and keep tithing for years and get

523
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 1: taken into church leadership. And I would see it as

524
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: a slow brainwashing essentially that happens over time. And so

525
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: some of the people I spoke to had been at

526
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: a Rise for almost two decades and they're just left

527
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: and we're like, this is just my whole life was

528
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: this place, Yeah, and I don't know what I am

529
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: without it.

530
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 3: Did you write that not only were they unpaid, but

531
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 3: they were paying separate from the tithing as well.

532
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: Some of them were paying for leadership courses within the church,

533
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: so they're like paying in for that.

534
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 4: I hate, I hate, I hate it.

535
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: It's a whole Yeah, it was just a whole built

536
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: in system that no journalists in New Zealand had really

537
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: looked at before. It was very critical of these other

538
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: smaller churches that were like much. They stood out because

539
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: they were minorities that were there, and so you know,

540
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: the media always tends to focus on those kinds of people,

541
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: whereas this white, seemingly perfect place was never touched. It

542
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: was much worse and much higher volumes than the other

543
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: churches that were typically criticized.

544
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 4: This is just an aside.

545
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 5: Is it harder to get into these communities in New

546
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 5: Zealand where you can't use the accent as like a.

547
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: The trouble I have in New Zealand is because it's

548
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: so small, and because I've been in the media for

549
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: a long time, people sort of know who I am,

550
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: and so yeah, walking into these churches becomes more difficult.

551
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: These people are going to close up. So with my

552
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: reporting and to a rise, it was mostly talking to

553
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: former members, meeting up with them, not actually going into

554
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: the church itself, but really talking to people that had

555
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: been in there or that were still in there and

556
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: thinking of leaving, and getting the story out of them

557
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: that way.

558
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 3: Well, tell us a little bit more about the internships,

559
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 3: because you know, most churches I know have like volunteering

560
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 3: that some people are doing, but rarely do I hear

561
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 3: about this many people having like mental breakdowns due to

562
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 3: the amount of time they're spending.

563
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 2: Can you talk about that?

564
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: It was just they really, you know, what they had

565
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: over these young people sort of you know, seventeen eighteen, nineteen,

566
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: twenty years old, is that they had convinced them that

567
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: this church was going to get them into heaven and

568
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: it was going to give them a better life, and

569
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: to have the best life you could have, you had

570
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: to follow their leader, John Cameron, Like everything he said

571
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,719
Speaker 1: was you know, godlike almost you know, and at conferences

572
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: he'd have his own green room and you weren't allowed

573
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: to look them in the eye. Everything was like insanely structured.

574
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: So he almost had the celebrity status within the church,

575
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: which in New Zealand is so unusual because we're so

576
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: low key. We don't really do celebrity. We have some

577
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: famous rugby players maybe, but like people don't really care otherwise,

578
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: And so the fact you had that power over them

579
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: was kind of amazing. And then you know, when you're

580
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: told by your church that the way to serve God

581
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: and to make God happy is to give you your

582
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: Monday night and your Tuesday night and your Wednesday night,

583
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: and you're setting up before services on a Sunday and

584
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: after into the night, and when conferences are coming, you've

585
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: got to be there for the whole four days. You

586
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: just you do it. And these were kids who you

587
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: know what it's like being a teenager. Life is kind

588
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: of busy. You've got school and sport and your personal stuff,

589
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: and then suddenly this church comes in and takes over

590
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: most of your life and you're trying to hold down

591
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: a job to pay for your school fees, but then

592
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: you're also doing all the stuff for the church for free.

593
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: People were just hitting burnt out. They were exhausted physically

594
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: and mentally, and then add to that, various kind of

595
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: coercive sort of things were being run behind the scenes.

596
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: People just cracked, and a lot of them cracked.

597
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 5: It seems like how they cracked too as seen as

598
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 5: almost godly. You know, like somebody burst into tears and

599
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 5: it's like, oh, you're having a release.

600
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,479
Speaker 1: Kind of and if you're not, and you know, if

601
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: people were breaking down as well and starting to complain,

602
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: the thought was no, like you've got to like, don't

603
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: be weak for God. You have to like push through this,

604
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: and if you push through this, that's when you know

605
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: you're holy and like God loves you. So it was

606
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: all this kind of spiritual manipulation to get these kids

607
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: just doing so much work. And I should say these

608
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: churches had campuses all over New Zealand, so you know,

609
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: there was a really big one and all the main

610
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: centers and then smaller ones and smaller towns, so it

611
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: was a really big network and a lot of people involved.

612
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you went public with some initial stories at first,

613
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: and then stories were flooding in right.

614
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: It was crazy. Yeah, I did sort of. I did

615
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: my first story where I've spoken to a few people,

616
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: and my whole idea was like, this is the biggest

617
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: church in New Zealand you haven't heard of, and they're

618
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: doing some incredibly dicey things. And since I published that

619
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: on Webraam, I just started yet the floodgates opened. So

620
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: many people started emailing in with stories. It was almost

621
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: like they've been waiting to have a vector to basically

622
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: tell their story, and so I was getting these You know,

623
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: when people are very passionate, they will they will write

624
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: for a long amount of time, and so I was

625
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: getting these, you know, two three four page emails from

626
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: people just outlining their year at the church, or some

627
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: of them had been there for ten years, and just

628
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: these stories, and they all started following the same kind

629
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: of pattern. I've got a Google doc of all of

630
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: these and it's four hundred and fifty pages long, just

631
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: to people writing in with their experiences. And so I

632
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: started feeding some of them into my other reporting, and

633
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: of course, you know, the church just closes ranks. And

634
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: that's when I really got to see how these places

635
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: operate in this megachurch structure where there's no real accountability

636
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: from the leadership. It operates purely to protect the people

637
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: at the top. And you know, they ended up commissioning

638
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: an external report to look at the culture. And when

639
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: that report came back incredibly negatively because they started talking

640
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: to the sorts of people that were talking to me,

641
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: the church then attempted to bury it. So they buried

642
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: their own report that commissioned. I ended up leaking that report,

643
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: which was full of more horrific information. The church didn't

644
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: like that very much, and then they ended up taking

645
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: legal action against the person that hired to write that report,

646
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: and so they ended up being out of pocket I

647
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: think about ten or twenty thousand dollars and had to

648
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: do a fundraiser to make the money back.

649
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

650
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: So it's just every level of a rised church was

651
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: just horrific. And I guess the overriding thing I kind

652
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: of took from it is that these churches, who individuals

653
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: at the church, they justify it because they are there

654
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: to bring forth the Kingdom of God, like they have

655
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: a higher purpose. And so so what if Sophie and

656
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: Mark are complaining about this thing at this church, if

657
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,719
Speaker 1: we have saved twenty people that night who have come in,

658
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: you know, because they're going to heaven forever, We've saved

659
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: them from hell, and so that becomes the important thing.

660
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: So someone moaning about sexual assault from a youth leader,

661
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: or someone saying I've almost had a breakdown, no, yeah,

662
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: but stop complaining because this is important for the cause,

663
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: which for the cause.

664
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 4: Saving souls, saving souls. Yeah, when you believe.

665
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 3: You're saving souls, everything will seem petty comparatively completely.

666
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: I mean, this is I'm going to do a tangent now,

667
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: but I have have you heard about hell houses? Do

668
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: you know what these are? Are?

669
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 4: These the Christian haunted houses.

670
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: Yes, oh my god, what, Yes, sir, I knew about

671
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: this back in New Zealand that these are things that existed.

672
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: I didn't think they were running them anymore. But I

673
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: went to one and I'm going to mispronounce this Wittier.

674
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 1: It's between La City and Orange County. Sorry and Wittier.

675
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: So a Christian hellhouse is essentially because Christians aren't allowed

676
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: to celebrate Halloween because it's evil. Evil spirits will escape

677
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: and will haunt you or whatever. So Halloween is off.

678
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: So what some Christian churches do, especially sort of the

679
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: more conservative Pentecostal evangelical ones, they'll put on a hell

680
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 1: house and that is essentially it's marketed as a normal haunt.

681
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: So secular Joe blogs will come and going, oh, what

682
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: is this thing that's popped up in my neighborhood that

683
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: sounds really scary, But when you get in there, what

684
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 1: it is. It's a whole lot of really graphic and

685
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: really high production values of youth doing sinful things. And

686
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: so when you walk in, there's a club. You walk

687
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: into a club, and I walk in there's a bar

688
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: that there's beautiful woman and hot men coming out to

689
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,959
Speaker 1: me offering me drinks, and you walk through that room. See, okay,

690
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: people drink. This sounds amazing. Yeah, let me stay here.

691
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: The next room horrific drink driving car crash. Kid's got

692
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: his head split open, he's screaming. The next room, you know,

693
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: I'll summarize as a heroine drug room. So a lot

694
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: of people are shooting up, some of them are overdosing

695
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: on the floor. You walk into a domestic violence room,

696
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 1: women are getting beaten by I suppose that that partners.

697
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 1: There's an OnlyFans room, a sex workers room, and it

698
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 1: sounds so silly, but the production values are really high.

699
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: They are really shocking.

700
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 2: And the actors are good.

701
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 1: The actors are doing it. A suicide room. Someone shoots

702
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: themselves in the head. Someone else has got open wounds

703
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: on their arm, and they've got a knife in the bathtub.

704
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,359
Speaker 1: The idea being you walk through all these scenarios and

705
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: then you end up in Hell, which is a very

706
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: intense room full of demons, and it's this giant it's

707
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: like a big holl that sort of looks like rock.

708
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 1: It's like you're in a cave. There's demons, there's people

709
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: screaming in cages, the soundtracks really loud, and the idea

710
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: being that all those people that you saw die in

711
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,879
Speaker 1: these hideous ways, they weren't saved, and so they all

712
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: died horribly and they went to hell.

713
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 2: Wow.

714
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: And then you emerged into this big auditorium. We were

715
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: showing YouTube footage and news clips of real deaths. So

716
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 1: there was five minutes of suicides, five minutes of murder,

717
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,479
Speaker 1: five minutes of drug overdoses. And then a pastor comes

718
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: out and he's like, hey, we showed you those clips

719
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 1: just to show you everything in the Hell House happens.

720
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 1: Only way you could drive home tonight, die on the

721
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: street in a car crash, and you're going straight to

722
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: hell if you're not saved, So come up the front.

723
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 2: Wow.

724
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: I would say about between fifty and seventy people went

725
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: up from my group that had just gone through the

726
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: Hell House, arms up, converted, got let off to a corner. Really,

727
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it. It works and it's huge, and

728
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: I would say they'd probably be about one thousand people

729
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: a night going through in different groups. So I'm just

730
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: ramming on about.

731
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 4: How much is it.

732
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: It was twelve dollars seventy five to get in I

733
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: bought two tickets because I hope a friend would go

734
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: with me or my friends were like, we're not going

735
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 1: to that. I wouldn't come with Next time, you're both

736
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: coming with me. And if you go in as an

737
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: outsider and you know what to expect, you know it's fascinating,

738
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: but you know the way. I should also say, twelve

739
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,879
Speaker 1: and up is the age limits. So there were kids

740
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: going through seeing the stuff, and again it works like

741
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: you've put the fear of Hell in someone and they

742
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: will follow along, like that old fashion thing works.

743
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

744
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 5: Like the cult that I grew up in, the two

745
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 5: by Tiars is just there's no real doctrine. It's just

746
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 5: don't go to Hell because Hell is so scary, Like yeah,

747
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 5: it's just all that we learn about is Hell.

748
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 2: Essentially.

749
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: That's because I grew up in a f I had

750
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: a really great family life, but Hell was certainly want

751
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: my church to have taught us. And so I'm this.

752
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: I thought that Hell until I was about twenty was

753
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 1: a real place, and so the Hell House was surreal

754
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: because by the time we got to Hell, I was like, oh,

755
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: this is what I actually pictured this place.

756
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: As you described it.

757
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 4: I was like precisely.

758
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: I should also say the two by two's I believe

759
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: are in New Zealand.

760
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 4: Oh, there's like a PM.

761
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: And there's a there's a we've got a member of

762
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: parliament who really is a member.

763
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 4: Yes, and that was.

764
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: A big story from I believe last year. Yeah, I

765
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: didn't realize it. It's spread out that far.

766
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's everywhere.

767
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And you just wanted to like, you have

768
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: this thing and you just want it to collapse, right,

769
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: you just want to pull everyone out, Yes, but it

770
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: just keeps.

771
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 5: These systems are perfectly created to keep repeating.

772
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: Because if you leave, how hell?

773
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Hell is the period period?

774
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,919
Speaker 1: How better? Yeah? Yeah? And again real place, physical place

775
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: that you go, oral eternity not good.

776
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 3: I feel so blessed that I didn't grow up with

777
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 3: hell mythology, none of it, because I was Mormon, and

778
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 3: Mormons have a different.

779
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 2: Conception of totally Hell goes, yeah, not about other things.

780
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: Weird from it's the craziest.

781
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 3: Hell house sounds like the Museum of Psychiatry for scientology,

782
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 3: like a that's ostensibly a tourist attraction.

783
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: Totally it tricks you. Yeah. And obviously there were some

784
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: church people that were in the hell House because I said,

785
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: I listened to some of the conversations, some of them new,

786
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: but there were definitely some people entering that place that

787
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: had no idea it was a religious thing because on

788
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 1: the outside there's no crosses or Jesus stuff. It's just

789
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: like some skeletons. No, it's just around Halloween. I'll send

790
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: you the info because you should go. You should do

791
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 1: an episode around it because it is wild.

792
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, we should do it.

793
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 2: We should bring like a recorder or something.

794
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: No photograph, not very edman secret, take a little secret in.

795
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 2: Yeah that's illegal.

796
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: Just do it. It is. You're right. That's what I

797
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: found out and tickled is that recording did both parties

798
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 1: very annoying when you're trying to make a documentary.

799
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 3: It's weird that there are states where only one party

800
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 3: needs to consent.

801
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: In New Zealand, it's a one party system. And if

802
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: you're that you can be the one party. So if

803
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: we're in New Zealand, I could meet up with either

804
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 1: of you and be secretly recording because I know I'm

805
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: recording completely legal.

806
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,240
Speaker 3: So if anyone present knows that the recording is happening,

807
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 3: it's legal.

808
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 2: No matter what.

809
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 3: It's so crazy to be really, especially with the advent

810
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 3: of did you guys see this Doja cat ad with

811
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 3: for the for the meta glasses?

812
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: Have they done an ad with them? Yeah? I like

813
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 1: I like her?

814
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 2: I like her so much. I was so bummed.

815
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 3: And the ad is just her like riding around on

816
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 3: her bicycle with these meta glasses looking cute, and it's like,

817
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 3: you realize, this is an ad for a surveillance state, right,

818
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,399
Speaker 3: this is not ah.

819
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 1: So I always look at I'm just you know, they

820
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: don't need she doesn't need the money. Yeah, And if

821
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: you're going to get them get the money for something else.

822
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: It would be a lot of money though, wouldn't it.

823
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be a lot of money. So much

824
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 2: trying to get a celebrity. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, but depressing.

825
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: Just read there's some sort of security software that's coming

826
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: out now which automatically stops the recording in someone's classes

827
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: if they're in the room, because they're having problems now

828
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: with people wearing these glasses and recording and message parlors

829
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: and intimate moments.

830
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: Of course they are, because how would that not be what.

831
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 4: It's used for?

832
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: Exactly? Humans can be the worst We suck any new

833
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: technology or use it for something awful.

834
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much.

835
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 1: Of course, chet GPT was always going to end up

836
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,720
Speaker 1: having an adult's only version, which is just hawny chet CHPT.

837
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: You know, there's always going to be the endgame of

838
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: all of this stuff that's.

839
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 3: The least harmful. I mean, they're a lot worse things happening. Yeah,

840
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 3: But anyway, back to the church, back to another horrible person,

841
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 3: you know.

842
00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 2: Other horrible things.

843
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 3: So you post did on your website a checklist of

844
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 3: things for members to renounce if they had become more

845
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 3: important to them than God.

846
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 2: Oh wow, I'm going to read some of this list.

847
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 3: Okay, here's what it says, as the Holy Spirit brings

848
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 3: to your mind the things or people that have become

849
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 3: more important to you than the true God Jesus. Christ

850
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 3: thought God and Jesus were separate. Okay, use the prayer

851
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 3: following the checklist to renounce them. It might be helpful.

852
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah. Okay, Ambition, food or any substance, money, possessions, computers,

853
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 3: game software, financial security, rock stars, media celebrities, themes. Sure,

854
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 3: not sure why those are in the same.

855
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 2: Church.

856
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 3: Activities, sports or physical fitness, fun, pleasure, appearance, image, work, busyness, activity, friends, popularity, spouse, knowledge, children.

857
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 5: Honestly, I appreciate them writing it out. I would have

858
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 5: appreciated something like this as a two by two child,

859
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 5: so I the OCD wouldn't have completely taken over and

860
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 5: I could have just been like, none of this.

861
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,439
Speaker 3: Every everybody is every single thing I could possibly enjoy

862
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 3: or derive meaning from other than God.

863
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 1: Pretty incredible.

864
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 3: How do you know when you've crossed the line of

865
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:10,399
Speaker 3: something being more important to you than God?

866
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: That's the thing, It's like, it's it's they play so

867
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: well with guilts. Yeah, you know, that's all they want

868
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: is just to elicit that guilt response, and so you're

869
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: always just feeling like anything you're thinking about that's any

870
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 1: of those things. You're thinking about those too much? Then

871
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: oh no, I'm not cold enough. I must get out

872
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: my Bible, I must go to church more, I must

873
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: volunteer more. It just goes back into all of that.

874
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a completely unattainable list of things to

875
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: not have to think about and to deal with, because

876
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: they're literally the things that make us a human on

877
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: the planet, and they're wanting to get rid of all

878
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: of that yeah stuff, you know.

879
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 2: So it's just a constant threat.

880
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I don't know if y'all experience this dichotomy

881
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 5: of like being told nothing on Earth matters, but then

882
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 5: also having to go to school and like worrying and

883
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 5: getting your homework. Yeah, it's like so odd and like

884
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 5: really confusing, very because you have to live and that

885
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 5: includes this list.

886
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well it's the whole thing of I mean, you're

887
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: not allowed to be of the world, right, Like everything

888
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: has to be focused on God, and yet we're here

889
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: on earth, right. But it's almost like it's that idea

890
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: of year none of this stuff matters, which is why

891
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 1: it's sort of a sidetrack. But climate change is such

892
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 1: a non starter for the conservative Christian movement because in

893
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 1: their minds, like they're out of here and like we're

894
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: going to a much better place, so let's not worry

895
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 1: about this environment.

896
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 2: Think he cares.

897
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: It becomes so damaging. But yeah, when you're a kid

898
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: growing up in this stuff, but it is super confusing, yeah,

899
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 1: because it's like you do your homework, but at the

900
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 1: same time you're being told nothing on Earth matters.

901
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm like, I don't want to learn math.

902
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,399
Speaker 1: What do we Yeah, why are we doing this? Yeah,

903
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: it's very confusing a lot of weird hoops to jump through.

904
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 3: Yes, I don't really know why I didn't have that,

905
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 3: because we also believed that, well prior to my like

906
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 3: proper cult guy or whatever it means stream Mormonism, we

907
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 3: also believed that the Second Coming could be at any moment.

908
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 3: But also I feel like there's a strong culture and

909
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 3: Mormonism of like going to college and having a career

910
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 3: in a future. I think maybe I remember people in

911
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 3: church being like, it could be tomorrow, or it could

912
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 3: be one hundred years from now, So you don't really

913
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 3: it doesn't It didn't necessarily feel like it was definitely

914
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 3: going to happen tomorrow.

915
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 5: I feel like your attitude might have been more like, well,

916
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 5: it might be in one hundred years then, whereas mine

917
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,240
Speaker 5: might be more like it'll be tomorrow.

918
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: Right. I was definitely brought up with thea it might

919
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: be tomorrow kind of philosophy because it definitely keeped john

920
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 1: your toes. Yeah, and it was also quite quite a

921
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: stressful thing.

922
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it was very literal, Like I remember my

923
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 5: dad and I were once sitting I don't know if

924
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 5: I've ever told you the story of my ad half.

925
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 5: But my dad and I were once sitting there and

926
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 5: we saw the northern lights when we didn't know what

927
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 5: they were, and I do not know why we saw

928
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 5: them in the state but where my dad, highly educated man,

929
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 5: said Megan, I think Jesus is coming back.

930
00:45:58,280 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: I've never heard this story.

931
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 4: Like, I don't think so.

932
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: But you're smarter, you excited or you instantly like no, Oddly,

933
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: I was like.

934
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 3: Dad, you're such a skeptical child. It's so impressive to me.

935
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 5: It always But it was like freaky to me because

936
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 5: I knew he said these things.

937
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 4: But I was like, I was like, are you okay?

938
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 2: Oh my god?

939
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 5: But but like also there was another side of me

940
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 5: that was like, you should be freaking out right now.

941
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:25,720
Speaker 4: This could be Jesus. I don't know. Anyway.

942
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, I'm on.

943
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 3: The dance floor on December thirty first, nineteen ninety nine,

944
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 3: thinking the world is for sure about to end.

945
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 4: What are you dancing to? Surely not primis?

946
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 2: I do remember?

947
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 1: Oh fuck.

948
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 3: There was one song where my crush wasn't dancing with me,

949
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 3: and then he chose to dance with me, and I

950
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 3: was like, like, mid dance, he left the girl he

951
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:45,839
Speaker 3: was dancing with to dance with me.

952
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 2: And I was like, this is how the world dramatic.

953
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: That's like a movie. I almost want the world to end.

954
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 4: Should have it, should happen, saying.

955
00:46:58,160 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 2: The girl gets left behind crying.

956
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 3: I will remember the song because whenever it comes on,

957
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, that's the song, but I can't remember.

958
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: It's so interesting that you looking at your dad and

959
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 1: kind of not believing it, because I do. I do

960
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: wonder with the people, including a Rise church and the

961
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: beliefs of the leaders, how much of them really believe

962
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: that stuff and how much of them are doing it

963
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:19,760
Speaker 1: just to fleece the flock.

964
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 4: I wanted to ask you that as I.

965
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 1: Still haven't really figured it out. You know John Cameron,

966
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: who you know left or eyes disgraced now trying to

967
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: start a new church in Australia. I could never figure

968
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 1: out whether he really believed in the stuff or whether

969
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: it was just a convenient thing for him to have

970
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: that's made him very wealthy and popular. Yeah, certain number

971
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: of people, and I don't know.

972
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 5: Yeah.

973
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 3: I sometimes I feel like any anyone who starts anything

974
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 3: that they're the leader of in any way must be sociopathic,

975
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 3: which I know is.

976
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 2: Not true but only close to it.

977
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 3: But whenever, like because I feel like the strong desire

978
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 3: constantly to like create stuff and to create community and

979
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 3: to start projects. And then like a few weeks Anama

980
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 3: I was like, this fucking sucks, Like dealing with people sucks. God,

981
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 3: it is so difficult to manage personalities and to make

982
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 3: sure there's not conflict and keep the peace and also

983
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 3: have it be democratic. So everyone feels hurt, Like it's

984
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 3: so fucking difficult. I feel like you have to have

985
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 3: such a particular personality type and narcissistic to do it,

986
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,479
Speaker 3: I mean, or just really really dedicated to the thing

987
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 3: that it's sure, but I suspected attracts more people who

988
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 3: are just like I want to be on top.

989
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 2: I want to be the leader.

990
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: So it's worth it absolutely, And that's what that was

991
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 1: a power structure thing in a rised church and a

992
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 1: lot of these churches, hillsong is that people want to

993
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: be top dog and they look at, you know, the

994
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: leader wandering around and is like with his fancy watch

995
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 1: and his cool haircut and cool design of clothes, and

996
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 1: they want to be like that, and so again they'll

997
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 1: work their asses off to where they think they will

998
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 1: at some point be at that level, and of course

999
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: they never will be.

1000
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say, do they ever advance now? O?

1001
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 1: Barey takes years And if you're a woman, you don't

1002
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: stand it. Chants, you know, it's a thing, you know,

1003
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: it's such a sexist environment.

1004
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,439
Speaker 3: As well as yah, yeah, oh yeah. Can you talk

1005
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 3: to us about John's brother, Brent.

1006
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,839
Speaker 1: Oh Brent? Yeah. So John had a brother, Brent, who

1007
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: sorry and yeah, Brent led one of the other Arise

1008
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 1: churches with his wife, and so Brent was sort of

1009
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 1: struck me as more of kind of the blockheaded sort

1010
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: of brother. He was a bit more of a sort

1011
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: of a jock, you know, a bit more of a

1012
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 1: sort of a rugby sort of guy, and he was

1013
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: that kind of leader who would be The story that

1014
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: came out that kind of stood out to me at

1015
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: the time was that he would on away camps, he

1016
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: would like chase members of the church around naked, like

1017
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: as like a like a joke, you know, like a

1018
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:52,720
Speaker 1: locker room. Yeah, like my dick's out ha ha, knocking

1019
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: at their door trying to get in, very like blow key,

1020
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: you know, sort of old fashioned sort of things you

1021
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: hear about happening in yep.

1022
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 3: You know, it's one thing if you're in a frat

1023
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 3: and you are also a teenager.

1024
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: Frat behavior, yeah, from a leader of a church. Yeah,

1025
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,879
Speaker 1: and I don't imagine, you know. I talked to one

1026
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 1: of the young people that was in the hotel room

1027
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: as Brent was naked knocking on his door, and he

1028
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 1: was fucking terrified, my god, you know, and that was

1029
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: treated as lighting up. It was a joke, you know,

1030
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: don't worry about it. And so that was Brent to

1031
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,439
Speaker 1: a t. And he fortunately resigned at the same time

1032
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 1: that his brother resigned. They both went out the door

1033
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 1: and Aria started collapsing after that. But yeah, Brent was

1034
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 1: just a blockhead. He was like a blockheaded version of

1035
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 1: the main guy in John.

1036
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 3: I was reading about how he would give people dead legs,

1037
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 3: like punch people all the time.

1038
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. I loved punching people, loved whacking them on the ass,

1039
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: you know, just like low key sort of It's not

1040
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: how I can't sort of describe it because it's not

1041
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,359
Speaker 1: who I am, but just I imagine locker room kind

1042
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: of football jock behavior, you know. But he's a lead

1043
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,800
Speaker 1: of a church, right, which is just so so bizarre.

1044
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,919
Speaker 2: Right to what extent were people shunned when they would leave?

1045
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 1: Oh? Completely yeah, completely cut out. So that's the thing, right,

1046
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 1: It's like you get to this point at a rise

1047
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: church and you like, this is I want to be out.

1048
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 1: I want to be free of this. You leave, you're

1049
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: cut off from anyone inside. So you hear about this

1050
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 1: with other religions as well, but it's your friends in

1051
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: there will stop talking to you because you're now evil.

1052
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 1: Because you've left, you lose all your community support. You know.

1053
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 1: Imagine if you're like a single mum in there, a

1054
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 1: single dad, and the church was your people you'd call

1055
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 1: on if you needed help. Suddenly that's instantly cut off,

1056
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,399
Speaker 1: and so you're suddenly completely adrift in the world. And

1057
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 1: that was enough for some people to go back to

1058
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,399
Speaker 1: the church again because they just couldn't live without that,

1059
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: or it was so much of a fear that it

1060
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 1: stopped people from leaving, and some people that did leave

1061
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: just found I could eventually build a life back. It's

1062
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: just really really hard to do.

1063
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, the people who suffered from like mental breakdowns, like

1064
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,839
Speaker 3: how I mean this is I guess maybe too broad

1065
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 3: of a question, But I'm just curious about what some

1066
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 3: of those journeys have looked like after, Like did it

1067
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 3: lead most of them to leave the church?

1068
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 5: Did?

1069
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: Yeah? A lot of the people that fully broke did

1070
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: leave because they just had that breakthrough where it was like,

1071
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 1: my whole being is attached to this place that's making

1072
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 1: me feel terrible, and they left and they slowly rebuilt.

1073
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: The difficulty when you're spat out of a church like

1074
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 1: that and you're you know, late twenties, thirties, forties, you know,

1075
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,919
Speaker 1: some of the hardest stories came from people that were

1076
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: in that forties. When you're normally you know, you've sort

1077
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: of by then you built up your value system and

1078
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: your worldview and what's important to you. When you're suddenly

1079
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: ejected from one of those high control religions at that point,

1080
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: you're like you're starting from scratch, because like, what without

1081
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: a Bible, how do I know what's right and wrong?

1082
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 1: How do I even act in the world? Am I

1083
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,919
Speaker 1: what am I meant to be interested in? It all

1084
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: falls apart at once, And so that was that those

1085
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 1: are the hardest stories to hear. The people that had

1086
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,320
Speaker 1: been in there for ten fifteen years that were coming

1087
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: out that were just completely starting and you and trying

1088
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 1: to you both know this. You're trying to build up

1089
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,479
Speaker 1: your world again, and that's really really hard.

1090
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 4: Oh so sad. It breaks my heart.

1091
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 3: How to construct an identity from scratch as an adult

1092
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 3: is just.

1093
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, start again now, yeah? Yeah? And what does dating

1094
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 1: look like? What exactly what am I meant to watch

1095
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: on TV? What am I consuming like? What?

1096
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 2: What do I believe about? Whatever his life means? Anything?

1097
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: Completely, And you've been sort of had your head filled

1098
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 1: with some very specific ideas of what is evil r

1099
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 1: what is good and suddenly having to reassess all of

1100
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: that moral code again. So oh, maybe gay people aren't evil,

1101
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 1: Like maybe me being gay isn't a bad thing. Like

1102
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 1: everything just starts from scratch.

1103
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 3: I've encountered number of young women who've exited polygamous communities

1104
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 3: just through my mom and some of the work that

1105
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 3: she does, and it's very very Kimmi Schmidt in most cases,

1106
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 3: like they don't know about anything, they don't know who

1107
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 3: celebrities are, they don't know what to wear, they don't

1108
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 3: know what's normal sexually, and so there's always this awkward

1109
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 3: first two years of like going way too far, like

1110
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 3: in the opposite direction, because they just don't know what's normal.

1111
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 2: Like I just can't. I feel so lucky.

1112
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 3: That my journey like kind of culminated when I was

1113
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:36,280
Speaker 3: a preteen and then teenager because starting over in like

1114
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 3: like twenty five thirty five, Like.

1115
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 5: But it's doable, and people they do it, and there's

1116
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 5: a journey there, and there's a story there, and there's

1117
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 5: a lesson there for other people.

1118
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 2: It's not impossible.

1119
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 5: And I think one of the cool things that I've

1120
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 5: heard a lot of people do is take it. And

1121
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 5: this is like so minimizing it and sounds tripe, but

1122
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 5: like taking a class of something they're interested in is

1123
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,399
Speaker 5: just gat a quick way to kind of up into

1124
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 5: a new community and be interested in.

1125
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. It's just like not having not going

1126
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 1: out to a bar to meet people, but no meat,

1127
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 1: like have something specific that is a group of like

1128
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,760
Speaker 1: minor people, and that's I think that's so important.

1129
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, as long as it's not another cult, because that

1130
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 3: happens exactly exactly.

1131
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 1: I know. And some people do fall straight into other things.

1132
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 4: Very very common, so hard. So join a few groups.

1133
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 1: Join a few, keep an eye if any of them

1134
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 1: are a bit Colsey, then extract yourself.

1135
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 2: Take a different immediately.

1136
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 1: But there are so many people. I mean, since I

1137
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 1: wrote about a rise, I still get emails from people

1138
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,720
Speaker 1: that are discovering those articles now and are sort of going,

1139
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 1: oh shit. I think my church is doing the same thing.

1140
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: And that is the most rewarding thing because if these

1141
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: articles I wrote and kind of if people can read

1142
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 1: them and be seen in them and go, holy shit,

1143
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:54,399
Speaker 1: this sounds like what's happened to me And I had

1144
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:56,359
Speaker 1: no idea this was bad, but this is probably why

1145
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 1: I'm feeling exhausted and horrible. Then it can be the

1146
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 1: thing that starts to like snap people out of it.

1147
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: That's why what your podcast, it's like the reason you

1148
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 1: do the show right, Like people can listen and stead

1149
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: of go oh, they can latch onto this thing. It's

1150
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 1: so important, think because you're alone when you're in those places.

1151
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 5: And what they've done is so important as well. It's

1152
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 5: just we're trying exactly at least.

1153
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 2: Trying some of us are trying.

1154
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 1: It's true.

1155
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:24,360
Speaker 4: It's true.

1156
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, where did things land with the church? Ultimately, after

1157
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,320
Speaker 3: all of these came out and the investigation went.

1158
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 1: Through, so Brent the Jock and John, the main leader.

1159
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 1: They both resigned because the report they commissioned was just

1160
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,280
Speaker 1: too damning, and by then they were being talked about

1161
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 1: on the New Zealand six o'clock news and they are

1162
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 1: in all the newspapers. So they left. The church sort

1163
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 1: of splintered. A lot of people left, which I think

1164
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 1: is a very positive thing. Some of them renamed to

1165
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 1: other things and are trying to carry on with the

1166
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: same model, which is annoying, but just what they do.

1167
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 1: There was the legal spat between the church and the

1168
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 1: leader of the report that commissioned to look into how

1169
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 1: awful the church was. That turned into a thing. But

1170
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 1: where its now arise is now much smaller in New Zealand.

1171
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 1: It's much more fractured. It still exists, but I would

1172
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 1: argue it's not quite as horrific as it was. The

1173
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 1: downside to it all is what happens a lot of

1174
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: the time, which is what I talked about a little

1175
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: bit earlier. These two leaders have now started their own

1176
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 1: new churches in Australia, so they've left New Zealand and

1177
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 1: they're just starting afresh. And that's the thing with a

1178
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 1: lot of these megachurch structures. That other churches will just

1179
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 1: accept them. And you know, anything they have done that

1180
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 1: is seen as bad, that's reported on, that's seen as

1181
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 1: martyrs essentially. And so John and Cameron went to Australia

1182
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: and they were invited into these other churches that were like, oh,

1183
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 1: you poor people, you'll be martyred, come in here. And

1184
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: they have slowly grow in that church and then they've

1185
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 1: gone out inside of their own churches. And so that's

1186
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 1: the thing. These churches all just like soak each other in.

1187
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,439
Speaker 1: If one gets blown up, there'll be another horrific church

1188
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 1: that will just happily open them in with open arms.

1189
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 3: Okay, question because like, surely there are instances of churches who,

1190
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:25,919
Speaker 3: you know, whose leadership was exploiting people and then we're like, oh, fuck,

1191
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 3: we didn't realize we were doing that or whatever, like

1192
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 3: or oh.

1193
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 2: We shouldn't be doing that totally.

1194
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 3: So what do you think the recourse would be or like,

1195
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 3: are there steps that a community could actually take to

1196
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 3: repair that.

1197
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: I think in smaller congregations you might have a chance

1198
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 1: where there is more of an even structure between the

1199
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 1: people that are in the congregation and the people that

1200
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 1: are serving, and then the leadership I think in these

1201
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 1: bigger structures, I think there is nothing authentic there. I

1202
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 1: think it's all built on this system of cont and

1203
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 1: I think if there aren't people being abused in the

1204
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 1: church financially, then the church falls apart. And so I

1205
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 1: think there's no hope for like these bigger structures, whether

1206
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 1: it's a Hill Song and a Rise. There's other churches

1207
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 1: in New Zealand like Life and Equippers. These churches are

1208
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 1: just built to exploit people, and so there's no way

1209
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: for it to be fixed unless the whole thing blows up.

1210
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 3: What if the leader's like, all right, I'm cutting my

1211
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 3: salary to a fifth of what it was.

1212
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 1: That happens. I've never heard of it happening. I think

1213
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: the people that get involved in the leadership of these

1214
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 1: churches are out to make a lot of money, and

1215
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: I just I've never seen an instance of it happening. Yeah,

1216
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 1: I'd love it too, I know, but I just I

1217
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:43,919
Speaker 1: don't see it happening anytime soon.

1218
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does seem whenever the leader is being enriched

1219
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 3: to that extent over the people, well.

1220
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 4: We just thought with Doja Cat everybody.

1221
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: People will sell out so quickly, Yeah, so so quickly.

1222
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 1: And I mean I'm always wonder like if I got

1223
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 1: offered a certainly money to do like wear some metaglasses,

1224
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 1: am I going to like turn on myself righteous question?

1225
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1226
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, this is a question I've been grappling

1227
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 3: with as well, like in music whatever that's not that's

1228
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 3: not a good story.

1229
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 2: But basically just like, yeah.

1230
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 3: When you do need money or you are like seeking security,

1231
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 3: like it's understandable to make a decision that will help

1232
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 3: provide some financial security. So how do you know, like

1233
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 3: at what point is it's so unethical and do we

1234
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 3: judge people?

1235
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 1: Well, it's fascinating. I often think of it with with

1236
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 1: the podcast I make. We have ads on it, and

1237
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 1: you know, I'm always thinking about like who these companies

1238
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 1: are and what they're doing. Right, It's like this there's

1239
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 1: like a you know, I'll say a hard no to

1240
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 1: like a gambling ad for instance, I'm not going to

1241
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 1: do a read and say go and buy this alcohol

1242
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 1: or go and gamble at this online casino. It's a

1243
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 1: hard note. Then there's other things that are like more

1244
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 1: in the middle. It's like us supplements, is that like we.

1245
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 2: Have a no supplement rule.

1246
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thing you know I'm wearing that same ca. Yeah,

1247
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 1: but it's like you also need to pay your staff

1248
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 1: and keep your and keep your podcast running, right, So

1249
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 1: what are the levels? And then like what if you

1250
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 1: have a brand that was good. We had a supplement

1251
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 1: on our show called ag One, which was made in

1252
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 1: New Zealand. I thought, this is great, it's like green I.

1253
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 4: Got I've been looking into that because that guy.

1254
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, he's a horrific Yes. So ag One

1255
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 1: is marketed as it's basically like, if you don't eat

1256
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 1: your vegetables, which is me, I hate vegetables, have this

1257
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 1: green powder and it will give you a vegetable intake.

1258
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:34,920
Speaker 1: So I was like, this is great, I will This

1259
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 1: is like seems like a saying supplement you know I

1260
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 1: used it. Turns out the New Zealander that founded ag

1261
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: One had his previous businesses had left people completely decimated.

1262
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 1: He completely ripped them off, left had this whole other

1263
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 1: life a horrific business leader. And there were also questions

1264
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 1: around how valid the ag one powder actually was. Yes,

1265
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:00,920
Speaker 1: and so that's an advertiser that we I said, no,

1266
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 1: we're not going to use this anymore. So it takes

1267
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 1: like a couple of months for your deal to run

1268
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:07,920
Speaker 1: out and that advertiser goes. But my point being, you

1269
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: can have an advertiser that seems good and then suddenly

1270
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:13,240
Speaker 1: you find out their leader is like a massive con man, right,

1271
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh god, I can't win here. Yeah,

1272
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 1: you know.

1273
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 5: Because capitalism is course of control and we're all a

1274
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 5: part of it and we're born and otherwise you'll die

1275
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 5: on the side of the streets.

1276
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 3: Also, blood corporations are completely anthocholic. It's like that's the

1277
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 3: system of we're fed to our advertisers.

1278
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,760
Speaker 1: No, it's really hard. I mean I webrem. I started

1279
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 1: webrom on a platform called substack, and I left substack

1280
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,800
Speaker 1: about three months ago for another platform because substack has

1281
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 1: a really dicey moderation policy around things like having Nazis

1282
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 1: on the platform and that kind of thing, And so

1283
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 1: I felt very safe writing webrom and substack. It was

1284
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 1: like I'd build up this whole ecosystem and community there,

1285
01:02:56,600 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 1: and suddenly it was like, oh is it ethical to

1286
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 1: be on this shit? You know, everything is compromised, and

1287
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:03,919
Speaker 1: I think we all just have to make the best

1288
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 1: decisions we can along the way and compromise the best

1289
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:10,800
Speaker 1: way we can sometimes completely ditching some awful things, sometimes

1290
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 1: trying to have a relationship with it where it works

1291
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 1: and that the good offsets the bad. Ye can't what

1292
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 1: my point was, but it's hard to be a human,

1293
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 1: it really is.

1294
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 5: And then my capital is and I will take feedback

1295
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:25,720
Speaker 5: from anyone who wants to talk about this, besides rich

1296
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:26,959
Speaker 5: kids who don't have to work.

1297
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And often the people that will, the people

1298
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 1: that will write to you and sort of point out

1299
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: what ethically horrific thing you're doing. They don't have much

1300
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 1: of a leg to stand right.

1301
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 5: It seems to be the way of the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1302
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 5: so just a little.

1303
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:46,120
Speaker 2: Most of us are doing our best and trying to

1304
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 2: be ethical.

1305
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 4: Most of us, as you said before.

1306
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 1: Most of us are like we are, like most humans

1307
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:53,240
Speaker 1: are trying to do well. It's just the bad actors

1308
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 1: are the ones that get amplified and we hear from

1309
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 1: them way more than we should.

1310
01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, what are you investigating next?

1311
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm actually looking for Flightless Bird my podcast.

1312
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 1: I'm looking into First Amendment auditors. Have you heard of

1313
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 1: these people? They are a certain subset of the American culture.

1314
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:17,960
Speaker 1: It really only exists in America and they start filming

1315
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:21,120
Speaker 1: strangers at their place of work. So they will do

1316
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 1: this to prove their First Amendment rights. So they will

1317
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 1: get in people's faces, they'll latch onto a certain person,

1318
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 1: and they will just randomly, they'll just latch on. If

1319
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 1: you're unfortunate enough to become a target of a First

1320
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:37,960
Speaker 1: Amendment auditor, you have your details online, your job, your face,

1321
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 1: your actions, you at your desk, and basically from what

1322
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 1: I can tell, I'm learning about this as I'm talking

1323
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 1: to you, they're just trying to prove the point that

1324
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 1: it is my First Amendment right to be able to

1325
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 1: stand in the street and film and do this. You

1326
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 1: cannot stop me, you can't arrest me. It's my right,

1327
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 1: and that's their whole mindset, and they'll harass the shit

1328
01:04:56,720 --> 01:04:59,120
Speaker 1: out of people to prove that point.

1329
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:01,640
Speaker 3: This is just like people on Reddit like where is

1330
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 3: this coming from.

1331
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 1: They're out in the world. I'm talking to a woman

1332
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 1: whose mother is a librarian and she is currently being

1333
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 1: harassed by a First Amendment auditor outside the library every day,

1334
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 1: So her whole life is being followed and uploaded onto

1335
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 1: YouTube by this person, thank god, trying to prove a

1336
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 1: point but.

1337
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:23,360
Speaker 3: Trying to prove a point, like is there a subculture

1338
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 3: they're emerging from?

1339
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:28,160
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, it's online. It's absolutely online. It's on forums,

1340
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 1: it's on Reddit, it's in person meetups. It's just wow.

1341
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:34,720
Speaker 1: And you'll see them around occasion if if you're ever

1342
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:37,400
Speaker 1: walking along, you see them in LA occasionally you're so

1343
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 1: usually have a handicam, sometimes just on a cell phone,

1344
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 1: but usually like a dedicated video device, and they'll just

1345
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 1: be off and outside someone's work, just standing there filming.

1346
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 1: And often you'll see someone in their face saying like

1347
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 1: please don't film me, and they'll just be standing their ground.

1348
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: You'll see them around.

1349
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:54,479
Speaker 4: Wow.

1350
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 5: One guy who kind of does that with the Scientology Center.

1351
01:05:57,640 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 5: But it's more I mean, I wish they would do

1352
01:05:59,160 --> 01:05:59,480
Speaker 5: it more.

1353
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:02,760
Speaker 1: It's the same kind of philosophy they're doing with Scientology

1354
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 1: to kind of like out the scientologists.

1355
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:08,560
Speaker 3: I wish they would do it more towards those people. Maybe,

1356
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:11,480
Speaker 3: I agree organizations that are secretive.

1357
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:13,680
Speaker 1: You know, they do it towards individuals that have just

1358
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:14,200
Speaker 1: been rare.

1359
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's what's the point, just to.

1360
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 1: Prove your First Amendment rights. So that's a subculture that

1361
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 1: I'm sort of going down that world all.

1362
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:27,880
Speaker 3: Now, do these First Amendment people care about the deportations

1363
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 3: of folks where their speaking?

1364
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, that's their interests of very specific,

1365
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 1: very very selfish. Yeah yeah, yeah, and most of them

1366
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:40,560
Speaker 1: are white. Also yeah, yeah, you've got a band trick

1367
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:42,160
Speaker 1: record of doing loopy things.

1368
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 2: God damn it.

1369
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.

1370
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 2: I can't wait to learn more about it.

1371
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 3: Thank you and about all the other weird subcultures you're

1372
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:50,720
Speaker 3: bound to be exploring.

1373
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:53,280
Speaker 1: No, thanks for having me on the show. And again,

1374
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:55,640
Speaker 1: like you, but you both do amazing work. I think

1375
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 1: like talking about the stuff as much as possible is

1376
01:06:57,800 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 1: like all we can do because I feel like the

1377
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:01,920
Speaker 1: world is getting weirder. But I think there's also more

1378
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 1: awareness of some of the weird and I think that

1379
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 1: I like to think that it is like a net

1380
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 1: good that's happening, that people being more aware of, Like

1381
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:10,360
Speaker 1: how I'm gonna.

1382
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 2: Go with that? Yeah, I'm going to join you there.

1383
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:13,560
Speaker 2: I think you're right.

1384
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:14,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're good.

1385
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 3: Okay, Well on this I'm not I'm I'm on the fence.

1386
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 3: But I appreciate you guys.

1387
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 1: I changed daily about how cynical I am about.

1388
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 2: The state of the every minute every minute. Yeah, yeah,

1389
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:27,320
Speaker 2: where can people find you?

1390
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 1: WebM is my main thing. It's www dot webworm dot co.

1391
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:37,160
Speaker 1: Because I couldn't afford the dot com. That'saw my investigative journalism.

1392
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 1: And I have a podcast about weird American things called

1393
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 1: Flightless Bird, which is on all places that you get

1394
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:45,640
Speaker 1: your things. And I think Tickled is on Netflix at

1395
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:49,480
Speaker 1: the moment. Doctoris is on Netflix, mister Organ, I think

1396
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:52,320
Speaker 1: is also on Netflix. If you google any of these things,

1397
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 1: it all pop up where it is. If you're listening

1398
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 1: in Australia, everything I've said will be incorrect because you

1399
01:07:58,000 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 1: know every country has got a different thing.

1400
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 5: Right Well, my ex boyfriend is probably watching Tickled right now.

1401
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 1: Every day he watches Ye turns it one gets into

1402
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:10,840
Speaker 1: the spirit of the day watching some competitive endurance tickling.

1403
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 2: It's super normal. Thank you for joining us.

1404
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:18,719
Speaker 3: Pleasure all right, and that's the end of our interview

1405
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:19,280
Speaker 3: with David.

1406
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:22,439
Speaker 2: Thanks to David for coming on. Megan.

1407
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:24,719
Speaker 3: I wanted to ask you about something we talked about

1408
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 3: besides the Rise Church, which is the Haunted Hell House

1409
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 3: or whatever it's called. You said the hell the Hell House,

1410
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 3: you said that you would not want to go.

1411
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 2: Please tell me more.

1412
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:41,800
Speaker 5: There's no way I'm going to any haunted house, whether

1413
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:46,400
Speaker 5: it be the Universal Studio haunted house, really never, there's

1414
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:52,080
Speaker 5: no way, much less one involving my greatest fear, which

1415
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 5: is hell. You couldn't pay me to go to a

1416
01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:00,840
Speaker 5: hell house. I know Hell isn't real, and I know

1417
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:04,240
Speaker 5: that the actors at Universal Studios also aren't real.

1418
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:09,160
Speaker 2: But there's a little part you know, they're not real characters.

1419
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 4: They're they're real actors.

1420
01:09:12,120 --> 01:09:15,680
Speaker 5: But I there's a little part of my brain that

1421
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:20,240
Speaker 5: doesn't understand what's real and what's not because it's called trauma,

1422
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:24,720
Speaker 5: and I just would not enjoy that one single bit.

1423
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:26,400
Speaker 4: It sounds horrible.

1424
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:29,920
Speaker 3: I mean, it does sound disturbing intentionally, so I get

1425
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:31,679
Speaker 3: that's that's by design.

1426
01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 5: Yes, I mean it's a haunted house, so they're supposed

1427
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:35,640
Speaker 5: to be disturbed, but.

1428
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:37,759
Speaker 3: It was one that's supposed to scare you into joining

1429
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:38,320
Speaker 3: their church.

1430
01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 2: So like that.

1431
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:43,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's weird because I love scary movies, so you

1432
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:46,200
Speaker 5: would think I would like haunted houses, but I don't.

1433
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:48,320
Speaker 2: I'm actually I didn't know that.

1434
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:51,360
Speaker 5: I'm surprised to learn this. I love haunted houses, I

1435
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:53,519
Speaker 5: don't like it. I do not like it at all.

1436
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 5: You know what, I'm going to tell you something really quickly.

1437
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:57,599
Speaker 5: I went to a haunted house when I was little,

1438
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:00,280
Speaker 5: and they did something too scary in my opinion, And

1439
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:01,599
Speaker 5: you tell me if this is too scary.

1440
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 2: Okay.

1441
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:02,920
Speaker 4: You walk through a.

1442
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 5: Tunnel to get to another part of the haunted house, right,

1443
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:07,559
Speaker 5: And as you're in the tunnel where I grew up,

1444
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 5: there was a ton of train tracks everywhere. As you're

1445
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:13,120
Speaker 5: in the tunnel, a bright light suddenly appeared and the

1446
01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:15,600
Speaker 5: sound of a train came on, so it looked like

1447
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:17,080
Speaker 5: you were about to get hit by a train.

1448
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:20,640
Speaker 3: That sounds cool to me, but I mean, it just

1449
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 3: depends on like is the child old enough to be

1450
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:25,599
Speaker 3: going to haunted houses in general, because that's.

1451
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:28,320
Speaker 5: A lot of not there is to do with like Halloween.

1452
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 5: That's just like you're actually getting hit by a train.

1453
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:33,640
Speaker 2: It's definitely very specific.

1454
01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:38,559
Speaker 5: That's like not haunted, that's not ghost like, it's not

1455
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 5: anything except just like, hey, let's make a fifth grader

1456
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 5: think she's gonna die for real.

1457
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:50,080
Speaker 4: So that was my last Turah. I'm over it. I

1458
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:51,400
Speaker 4: don't want to go to a hou house.

1459
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:54,240
Speaker 5: I'll go to a haven house with whoever wants to

1460
01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:57,280
Speaker 5: go with me. Oh that sounds nice. Yeah, I wonder

1461
01:10:57,320 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 5: if that exists. Probably not like a spot or something.

1462
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 5: I'm sure sure, I okay.

1463
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:07,120
Speaker 3: I will go to any haunted house anytime, except for

1464
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:09,280
Speaker 3: the ones that are like the extreme ones, which maybe

1465
01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 3: we should do an episode on those at one point.

1466
01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:12,000
Speaker 4: Absolutely.

1467
01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:15,320
Speaker 5: Also, one of my best friends worked at the Universal

1468
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 5: Haunted House last year, the year before last, and she

1469
01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:22,240
Speaker 5: was wearing like a mask and her crush came in

1470
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:26,000
Speaker 5: with another girl and she was bawling underneath her mask,

1471
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:29,559
Speaker 5: and it was like a haunted house inside a haunted

1472
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 5: house is so sad, but like such a good movie scene.

1473
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:36,240
Speaker 5: I'm so sorry that happened to her. I know, I

1474
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:40,559
Speaker 5: love her so much. Well, thanks again for listening to us, y'all.

1475
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:42,599
Speaker 5: We can't wait to see you again next week. Leave

1476
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:47,080
Speaker 5: us five stars if you're so inclined, and as always,

1477
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:50,839
Speaker 5: remember to follow your gut, watch out for red flax,

1478
01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 5: and never ever trust me.

1479
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:59,679
Speaker 2: Bye bye. This has been an exactly right production Hosted

1480
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:00,080
Speaker 2: by me Me.

1481
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:03,880
Speaker 5: Lola Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is G.

1482
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:04,400
Speaker 4: Holly.

1483
01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:07,759
Speaker 3: This episode was mixed by John Bradley, our associate producer

1484
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:11,120
Speaker 3: is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patrick Kottner.

1485
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:13,800
Speaker 3: Our theme song was composed by Holly Ambert Church.

1486
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:18,160
Speaker 5: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark

1487
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:19,160
Speaker 5: and Danielle Kramer.

1488
01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:21,679
Speaker 3: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

1489
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:23,959
Speaker 3: or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast.

1490
01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:27,360
Speaker 5: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

1491
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:30,759
Speaker 5: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

1492
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:33,720
Speaker 3: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1493
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:35,400
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts