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Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: Talking to people who talk to other people for a

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Speaker 1: living can be challenging, especially if that person is David Letterman,

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Speaker 1: a legendary comedian and late night talk show host, is

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Speaker 1: always somewhat guarded and never assuming the faux familiarity that

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Speaker 1: some of his contemporaries do, so when he sat down

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Speaker 1: with me to do my show, I wasn't sure what

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Speaker 1: to expect. However, early in our talk, Letterman discussed his

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Speaker 1: college years in the nineteen sixties and now once the

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Speaker 1: draft was changed, Letterman avoided going off to Vietnam. In

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Speaker 1: those days, you get the student deferment, and Balsa was

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Speaker 1: prinsipally a teacher's college in those days, and so they

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Speaker 1: wanted teachers. He was chock full of guys who wanted

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Speaker 1: that student deferment and also the teaching deferment. I was

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Speaker 1: not studying teaching, so the minute I graduated was reclassified

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Speaker 1: one A went for my pre draft physical in April

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Speaker 1: and they said, okay, we'll call you. And then in

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Speaker 1: the meantime before I was called, Nixon announced the National

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Speaker 1: Lottery they were going to end the draft. They were

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Speaker 1: trying to step down the Vietnamese War. My birthday was

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Speaker 1: three forty two or something like that, at A three

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Speaker 1: undred fifty six, So that meant even though I was

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Speaker 1: one A and had my pre induction physical and was

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Speaker 1: ready to go, it was over for me. At the time,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know how lucky I was. I felt guilty

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Speaker 1: because I had friends who had gone, and I had

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Speaker 1: friends who had been in the Marine Corps, and I

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Speaker 1: just felt like, well, why met these guys went, Why

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Speaker 1: shouldn't I go? And then it dawned on me pretty quickly.

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Speaker 1: I had been among the really really lucky. Yeah, what

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Speaker 1: was the political landscape like at Ballston when you went there? Well,

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Speaker 1: it was just starting to Uh. I used to make

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Speaker 1: jokes that they would have student protests, but it was

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Speaker 1: to get the cafeteria cooks to wear hairnets. But it was.

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Speaker 1: It was creeping in. It was not a hot bed.

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Speaker 1: It was not Madison, Wisconsin. It was Muncie, Indiana. But

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Speaker 1: it was starting and there were sit ins and demonstrations,

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Speaker 1: and you know, Bobby Kennedy had spoken on campus, so

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Speaker 1: it was starting, but I wouldn't say it was. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't quite lit up the way it might have been

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Speaker 1: in other regions. You mentioned booth announcers, and I remember

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Speaker 1: I did a YouTube search. I wanted to find this

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Speaker 1: guy that was literally the voice of my childhood w

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Speaker 1: r Andy come on and say, you know, uh next

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Speaker 1: on Million Dollar Movie, Barbara stan mctells Gary Cooper where

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Speaker 1: he Can Go? And Ball of Fire and he just

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Speaker 1: said this voice, it was just it just haunted me. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting. You mentioned that guy I had the little

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Speaker 1: kid voice from Indiana. I wasn't that guy, but I

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Speaker 1: still had to do the job. And I can't impress

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Speaker 1: upon you enough how tedious it is to sit there

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Speaker 1: for eight hours watching programming and logging everything that happens.

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Speaker 1: If you lose audio, you have to log that. If

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Speaker 1: you lose video, you have to log that. You have

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Speaker 1: to log sign on, sign off, every commercial, every station break.

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Speaker 1: And at first I was scared, silly, but then, like

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Speaker 1: everything else, you get accustomed to it and you become blase.

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Speaker 1: And so I would just start wandering the building. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was so embarrassing. They would will the booth announcer

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Speaker 1: please report to the announced booth, and oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I've missed the so and so. The main announcer was

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Speaker 1: a guy named Rob Stone. Tremendous voice and hopeless alcoholic,

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Speaker 1: I mean a real alcoholic, go hand in hand, yeah,

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Speaker 1: kind of. Certainly in those days it was not uncommon.

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Speaker 1: He would come in and he would bring a point

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Speaker 1: with him. And so in the spirit of this, we

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Speaker 1: who were working the sign off shift, we would always

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Speaker 1: send somebody out for beer, and we would be at

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Speaker 1: the station late at night signing off, and myself and

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Speaker 1: the director and whomever else was there, we'd be drinking beer.

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Speaker 1: Oh my, with this fun. In those days, you would

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Speaker 1: do a five minute new summary before sign off nightcap news,

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Speaker 1: and then you would do the the broadcast statement. You'd

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Speaker 1: read that over the slide of the station, and then

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Speaker 1: they would go to the national anthem with the waving flag.

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Speaker 1: One night, a guy in the props department said, I

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Speaker 1: can reconstruct exactly the station is pictured on the slide.

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Speaker 1: We can make it blow up. So as you're as

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Speaker 1: you're reading the thank you and good night and why

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Speaker 1: not tune in w LW overnight and blah blah this

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Speaker 1: and so until tomorrow, good night and good luck, I

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Speaker 1: have the thing come home. And so we did. Oh god,

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Speaker 1: we were proud of ourselves. You know, we really thought

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Speaker 1: we had done something. Geez. Nobody ever said anything. No,

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Speaker 1: it was bizarre. Nobody got fired. Nobody asked a question

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Speaker 1: about it. You know. It was this cult of four

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Speaker 1: or five guys who had pulled this off, and we

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Speaker 1: just thought, well, this is one. It was fun, but

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Speaker 1: too you wanted but no, nobody nobody said anything. But

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Speaker 1: but what's interesting is from school and then doing the

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Speaker 1: job and so forth in the booth thing the comedy

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Speaker 1: gland is secreting through the entire time. What are you

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Speaker 1: doing for that? Meaning? Other than blowing up the studio

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Speaker 1: and in the sign off or yes, I was looking

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Speaker 1: for any outlet, and it came for me doing the weather.

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Speaker 1: I knew nothing about whether you'd go downstairs and I'd

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Speaker 1: have the A P machine and the map would come over,

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Speaker 1: the national map, and you would go to the big

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Speaker 1: magnetic board in the studio and you put the low system,

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Speaker 1: and you put the high system, and you put the

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Speaker 1: occluded front, and you put the rain showers, and so

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Speaker 1: it told you everything any time at all that I

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Speaker 1: could monkey with that, I was very happy. I can

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Speaker 1: remember two episodes. One I was had forecast sunny and

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Speaker 1: dryet and we we go off the air and blah blah,

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Speaker 1: and I go outside this this is horrible thundershower. The

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Speaker 1: rain is coming down in sheets, and I was just

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Speaker 1: twenty ft away, just oblivious of this. This uh dangerous

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Speaker 1: is coming through this one of these violent Midwestern summer

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Speaker 1: thunderstorms coming attacking the station. I got to be well

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Speaker 1: known because this Sunday Night show was on after the

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Speaker 1: ABC Sunday Night Movie, and in those days that was

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Speaker 1: big programming. Yeah, we got a bunch of complaints. And

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Speaker 1: this was when people were wearing a bell bottom pants.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he could buy regular pants. Got a

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Speaker 1: lot of calls about he's either not wearing underpants or

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Speaker 1: he needs to wear underpants. That's how I distinguished myself.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to clear that up now? Were you

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Speaker 1: wearing a pan? Of course I was where it was Indianapolis.

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Speaker 1: We were not talked to go out without our It's

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Speaker 1: whatever problem was perceived was not mine, I assure you.

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Speaker 1: And then where do you go from there in terms

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Speaker 1: of underpants, and well, if you wish. I got tired

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Speaker 1: of sitting in the booth and tired of working weekends.

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Speaker 1: And also they didn't. They didn't want me there. They

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Speaker 1: would keep bringing in auditions for my job. That really

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Speaker 1: hurt my feelings, but I couldn't argue with them because

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was doing. But the cumulative

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Speaker 1: effect of being on TV a lot there, we get

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Speaker 1: this memo once from the search department and of all

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Speaker 1: of the people, the the anchor team and whomever else,

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Speaker 1: I had the highest queue rating of anybody there, and

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Speaker 1: it was only by accident, really, So I started looking

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Speaker 1: for a job, couldn't get hired out of the market.

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Speaker 1: Some people I knew were coming in to start up

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Speaker 1: a talk radio station, so I went to work at

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Speaker 1: the new talk radio station in that format. It was

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Speaker 1: news talks for us w NTS. When I resigned to quit,

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Speaker 1: give my notice to the general manage, the guys ad

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Speaker 1: and it chilled me at the time. He said, really,

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Speaker 1: you're leaving this TV station to go work for a

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Speaker 1: brand new radio station. And I said yeah, and he

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Speaker 1: said you will never be heard of again. So I

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Speaker 1: went to the station, worked there for a year, realized

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Speaker 1: that I had to make a move. Nobody would would listen.

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Speaker 1: It was a daytime station. This was tremendous. They had

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Speaker 1: a daytime license, which meant the radio station come on

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Speaker 1: when the sun came up and went off when the

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Speaker 1: sun went down. Literally. Yeah. And then the winter we

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Speaker 1: were off at three in the afternoon. I had the

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Speaker 1: midday shift, and I come in at noon and two

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Speaker 1: hours later I'd be going home. It was it was afternoon.

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Speaker 1: And then in the summer. Conversely, you were on the

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Speaker 1: like nine thirty or ten. It was awful. It was Watergate,

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Speaker 1: and and people assumed, well, the guy's got a talk

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Speaker 1: show on the radio, but he knows everything there is

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Speaker 1: to know about Watergate, and I knew nothing, and people

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Speaker 1: wouldn't call in, and I'd have to read endless pages

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Speaker 1: of wire copy. I remember reading it sorry about Gordon

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Speaker 1: strachan str A c h A N. His name kept

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Speaker 1: I'm going up a special counsel, so and so Gordon

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Speaker 1: Stratch and adviser of the White House, Gordon Stratch. And

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Speaker 1: finally the phones light up and I, thank god, did

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Speaker 1: I say yes, He says, it's not Stratching, it's Strang

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Speaker 1: You're mispronouncing the guy's name. I said, okay, thanks you everything,

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Speaker 1: no click buzz, So there you go. Were you ambitious

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Speaker 1: during this time? Did you have an ambition. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to. I really thought, Um, I really thought I

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Speaker 1: could write half hours situation comedies. I thought I could.

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Speaker 1: What did you watch one? In my childhood it was

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Speaker 1: completely different. It would have been stuff like Saturday Morning Nonsense.

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Speaker 1: Then as I grew older, you get Mayberry, the Andy

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Speaker 1: Griffs Show, Ozzie and Harriet, Nelson and Nelson's and that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And then later on and in those days,

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Speaker 1: it was all the Mary Tyler More things, the Bob

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Speaker 1: Newhart Show, on the Mary Tyler More Show. And I

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Speaker 1: really thought, oh, I can write one of those Mary

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Speaker 1: Tyler Moore shows. And it turned out I couldn't. As

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a template for writing those things. They

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Speaker 1: used the template because it's successful. And if you don't

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Speaker 1: know the template and you think you can make a

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Speaker 1: or version of it, it's a very foreign object to them.

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Speaker 1: To you, you think, look, I've improved on the template,

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Speaker 1: but they don't want that. They want something to Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's right. I mean we're talking about Mary Tyler Moore.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty good stuff. Smart and you're in l A

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Speaker 1: at that time. No, I'm still in Indianapolis, and I

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Speaker 1: would be sending scripts and looking for an agent. Finally

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Speaker 1: a guy said, yeah, if you come to Los Angeles,

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Speaker 1: he said, I'll be your agent. So with that encouragement,

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Speaker 1: I just left. And I don't know about you, but

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Speaker 1: you know your friends say, okay, here you can meet

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Speaker 1: with so and so, and and you can meet mel

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Speaker 1: Blank's son, you can meet with him and and I

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Speaker 1: know this one, and I know that one, and so

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Speaker 1: you go out there with high hopes. I guess it's

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Speaker 1: like the Pioneers and the kind of Stoga wagon and

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Speaker 1: they run out of beans. You know, they're in Salt

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Speaker 1: Lake and they got nothing need. So within the first

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Speaker 1: week you run through all of your appointments and then

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Speaker 1: you've got nothing. Then your Shanghai. That's right on the

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Speaker 1: show was there in l A. Remember when I went

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Speaker 1: to l A. I did a soap opera at thirty Rock.

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Speaker 1: The show is about to go off the air and

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Speaker 1: on every forget this guy that was the producer. Here,

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Speaker 1: we're in the hallway and they asked me to extend

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Speaker 1: my contract for a few months, and he says that

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Speaker 1: line to me. He says, what do you think you're

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Speaker 1: gonna do? Go out the Hollywood, become a star in

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Speaker 1: the movies. I'm walking down the hollies going do listen

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Speaker 1: to me? Come back here? You you don't walk away

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Speaker 1: from me? And I walk away from the guy and

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Speaker 1: I go to l A. Now, were you ever haunted

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Speaker 1: by that? Did you? Honestly? Did you? Did you? Because

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Speaker 1: in my case, I thought the guy was. I said, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I haven't considered that. Of course you do. Did you

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Speaker 1: ever think you were going to be? I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to get you know, crass about it, but

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Speaker 1: you live a very very good life. You've been an

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Speaker 1: enormously successful man. Did you ever dream you would be

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Speaker 1: as successful as you are? Never? No, And I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you the same for you, same for most people in

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Speaker 1: this uh in show business. You're just lucky enough to

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Speaker 1: get to do exactly what you want to do all

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Speaker 1: your life. So that's the success, you know. I always

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Speaker 1: thought there was some commission that was going to come

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Speaker 1: to my door of my apartment I was living in

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Speaker 1: and West Hollywood, and there were not. They're going where

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Speaker 1: the Motion Picture Acting Commission? And we've got the reports,

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Speaker 1: Mr Bob. We're gonna take it to the airport. By

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Speaker 1: the way back to me. I think you're not gonna

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Speaker 1: get into. I know the origin of this is is

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Speaker 1: your personal fear, But I think that commission is not

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Speaker 1: a bad idea long overdue, honest to God. Can we

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Speaker 1: get that up and on its feet? Can we get

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Speaker 1: a bill? I remember there was a guy, a writer

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Speaker 1: for the Old Tonight Show, somebody calling his His listing

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Speaker 1: in the white pages was it's Marty Cohen. It was

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Speaker 1: not Marty Cohon, Marty Cohen, president of show Business. Just

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Speaker 1: oh that's lovely. So were you? Were you doing stand

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Speaker 1: up every in Indiana? Uh? No, never did. In fact,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I didn't like doing was

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Speaker 1: when I was at the radio station. Part of the

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Speaker 1: deal was we just sold a thing to Kroger grocery stores.

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Speaker 1: But part of the deal is we want you to

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Speaker 1: go out there and m see the song songs. And

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Speaker 1: I hated it, and I finally told the guys that

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Speaker 1: I can't do this. So one of my big built

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Speaker 1: in fears was getting up in front of people that

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Speaker 1: I didn't know and trying to, you know, hold their attention.

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Speaker 1: Let alone be funny, But for me, the road map

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Speaker 1: to pursue was handed to you via Johnny Carson and

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Speaker 1: The Tonight Show. They would have comics on it would

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Speaker 1: be David Brenner and they would say, and there will

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Speaker 1: be appearing at the Comedy Store. And it seemed to

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Speaker 1: be that the connection between the Comedy Store and the

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Speaker 1: Tonight Show was pretty close. So even though I mind

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Speaker 1: that facility that particularly, it was the farm system for

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Speaker 1: the Comedy Store, and great guys were coming out and

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Speaker 1: getting on and Steve Landisberg and on and on. I

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Speaker 1: say on and on because I can't remember the name,

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Speaker 1: so I just yeah, even though I wanted to be

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Speaker 1: a writer, because I didn't have the courage to tell

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Speaker 1: my family and friends that what I really want to

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Speaker 1: do is, you know, somehow get famous and beyond TV.

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Speaker 1: So when when I went out there the first monday

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Speaker 1: I was in California when I moved in, I wrote

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Speaker 1: down some stuff and went to the Comedy Store and

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Speaker 1: got on stage. It was it was awful. I've never

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Speaker 1: been in a darkened room with the spotlight and it

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Speaker 1: was just like a train coming at me. So I

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Speaker 1: did my little five minutes from route left and then

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Speaker 1: the owner of the place, yeah, you should come back

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Speaker 1: and do some more. So I thought, are you kidding me?

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Speaker 1: And she's no, you can mc so I came back

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Speaker 1: and I was the fantastic Yeah, Derek. So that was

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Speaker 1: nine seventy eight. Three years later I was on the

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Speaker 1: Tonight Show. That worked so much better than it should have.

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Speaker 1: I think it must be harder now, Beau wasn't three

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Speaker 1: years of just work in that room and work in

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Speaker 1: the mic and working stand up. But it was. I

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Speaker 1: mean it was fun because every night you go there

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Speaker 1: and you were hanging around guys Jay Leno and Robin

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Speaker 1: Williams and George Miller and Tom Greson and Jeff Altman

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Speaker 1: and anybody now who's you're aware of you would see

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Speaker 1: every night. And it was great fun. I mean, my god,

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Speaker 1: it was great fun. Didn't make any difference what you

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Speaker 1: did during the day. You knew that when it got dark,

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Speaker 1: you'd be on Sunset Boulevard. The place would be packed.

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Speaker 1: And in those days, the only room she had was

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Speaker 1: this tiny, little original room and it was next door

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Speaker 1: to U Art Labelle's. He would have a fifties dance

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Speaker 1: party in the next room on the weekends and you

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Speaker 1: would get a lot of gang guys going to Art Label's.

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Speaker 1: Guys non U barrio. Um is that all right? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Low Riders. Yeah, and uh, one night, a friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: Johnny Dark, is on stage and a guy comes up

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Speaker 1: and he's got a gun and he's standing next to

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Speaker 1: Johnny while Johnny is doing his little singing impressions of whomever,

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Speaker 1: and and he had to quietly, you know, talk his

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Speaker 1: way out of the guy using the gun. And it

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Speaker 1: was exciting. Sivan Richard Pryor would come in, and Freddie

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Speaker 1: Prince would come in, So you say, yeah, night after night.

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Speaker 1: But still in all, how could that not be fun?

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Speaker 1: So did Carson find you there? Well, they had a guy,

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Speaker 1: you know, they had a team of guys when I

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Speaker 1: was there that would come in. Uh. And in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: I got on this Mary Tyler Moore show, uh to

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Speaker 1: write and perform and that was it was me and

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Speaker 1: Michael Keaton, Jim Hampton and Dick Shawn and Susy Kurtz

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Speaker 1: and uh, Julie con Judy con Judy con thank you

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Speaker 1: very much. So from that show, uh, they said, oh,

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Speaker 1: well we'll put you on because you're on that show.

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Speaker 1: You can come out and do stand up and then

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Speaker 1: you go sit down and talk to Johnny. And without

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Speaker 1: that you never know what the formula is. You could

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Speaker 1: be on nine times and never get to sit on

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Speaker 1: with Johnny. You could be on for six years and

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Speaker 1: every or you could be bumped forty times never But

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Speaker 1: because of this, Oh and he's appearing on the so

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Speaker 1: and so Show, the Mary Tyler Moore Show, I got

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Speaker 1: to sit down with Johnny and and that was again,

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Speaker 1: that was craziness. That was That was another one of

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Speaker 1: those you know what. Oh yeah, it's such a jolt.

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Speaker 1: The material is so committed. You don't have to think

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Speaker 1: about anything, You just have to start talking and it

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Speaker 1: all comes out. The adrenaline takes days to burn out

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Speaker 1: of you. Holy God, you're sitting next to Johnny Carson.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you just can't believe it. I mean to me,

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Speaker 1: and I think most guys my age who were out

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Speaker 1: there doing that one. The fact that it worked. You know, really,

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Speaker 1: I drove in a pickup truck with my wife to

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Speaker 1: l A and three years later I'm sitting next to

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Speaker 1: Johnny Carson. That's not supposed to happen, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: just not supposed to happen, but it did. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that Carson was someone who do you think he

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Speaker 1: saw himself? And you do you think he saw the

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Speaker 1: midwestern boy. I don't know, Jean and you, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was so easy for other people to

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Speaker 1: make that comparison. Uh, and that seemed to be the formula.

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Speaker 1: But I don't I don't know if he felt that

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Speaker 1: way or not. Um, I don't. I can't answer that.

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Speaker 1: And then what happened after that, Well, your life changed immediately.

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Speaker 1: Suddenly you weren't just a guy who was at the

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Speaker 1: comedy store. You were the guy that had been on

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Speaker 1: with Carson. And then I was on I think two

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Speaker 1: or three more times, and then I started hosting the show,

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Speaker 1: and again that was another you know, you just feel

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Speaker 1: like it's like it's like winning the World Series or

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Speaker 1: your rookie season. What's the gap of time between when

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Speaker 1: you first sat down with him when you started hosting.

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Speaker 1: The first time I was on was November of seventy eight,

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Speaker 1: and I think I hosted. Uh. It was Monday night

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Speaker 1: opposite the Academy Awards. It was the Good Spring, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in April, I have in April of March April, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it was I was frozen. I was as frozen

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Speaker 1: as I can remember. Peter Losally coming up to me

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Speaker 1: during the commercial break and he said, you've got to

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Speaker 1: loosen up. You've got to loosen up. Thanks that tip page.

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Speaker 1: I remember the first night I was saw on the

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Speaker 1: Tonight Show and I'm I'm telling you, four guys at

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Speaker 1: the comedy store, this was it. This was like people

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Speaker 1: lining up to squeeze through a funnel, you know. This

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Speaker 1: was it the Tonight Show. Fighting in competition and backstabbing

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Speaker 1: in bad mouthing to get to the Tonight Show. It

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Speaker 1: is gonna make or break you if if you don't

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Speaker 1: do well, you'll never be heard of again. There's there's

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Speaker 1: no such thing as a guy bombings first time on

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Speaker 1: the Tonight Show and then having a delightful career that

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Speaker 1: just doesn't happen. You're gone. So there's a lot of pressures.

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Speaker 1: So I am getting ready to go out there just

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Speaker 1: behind the curtain. And my manager at the time, Buddy Mora,

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Speaker 1: who was with Jack Rollins and uh Charles Joffey. They

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Speaker 1: handled Robin Williams and Woody Allen and Dick Cabint and

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Speaker 1: some other guys. So that was a big deal for

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Speaker 1: me to be with these people. And Buddy and I

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Speaker 1: nice enough guy, but we never I never saw Ey'd

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Speaker 1: eye on much. And I think a lot of it

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Speaker 1: was my immaturity about show business or just ignorance. Not immaturity.

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Speaker 1: I you know, I had no time to be immature.

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Speaker 1: I was ignorant. So we're standing there and Johnny saying,

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Speaker 1: our next guest as a young blah blah blah blah,

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Speaker 1: and Buddy says to me, and any Buddy always whispered.

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Speaker 1: Everything was a whisper it. But he says, Robin got popeye,

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Speaker 1: and I said, what are you talking about? His final

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Speaker 1: words to me, as I'm going on the tonight show

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Speaker 1: from the first time, telling me about a booking for

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Speaker 1: one of his other clients, you know, And I just

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Speaker 1: never got over that. My thanks to David Letterman for

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Speaker 1: giving me some of his valuable time. Some talk show

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Speaker 1: guests arrived with a predetermined almost Arthur Murray asked pattern

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Speaker 1: of stories and anecdotes, and many shows in fact encourage

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Speaker 1: that on. Here's the thing. Some of my guests showed

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Speaker 1: up to have a genuine conversation and during that time

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Speaker 1: discussed very personal, even raw moments in their careers and lives.

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Speaker 1: Such was the case with Audre McDonald, who spoke movingly

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Speaker 1: about the difficulties she found as an artist studying and

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Speaker 1: then launching her career in New York. This was my

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Speaker 1: third year and it had been just yet another year

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Speaker 1: of floundering and doing poorly in all my classes, and

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Speaker 1: teachers just saying, you know, you've got to get give

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Speaker 1: over to your operatic sound, and me not wanting to,

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Speaker 1: not knowing what that was. Um. And when I would

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Speaker 1: get close to an operatic sound, I'd say, I don't

405
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Speaker 1: want to sound like that. So I felt like I

406
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Speaker 1: was just being pushed and they were doing their job rightfully.

407
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Speaker 1: So this is like, this is your Juilliard to study.

408
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Speaker 1: This is what you're gonna do to push me into

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Speaker 1: a place that just wasn't me artistically. So that coupled

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Speaker 1: with being one by yourself in New York and being

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Speaker 1: treated poorly by um whatever his name was, what's his name?

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Speaker 1: I were so good to say that no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: he's he's fine. He's a great guy now, but in

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Speaker 1: any rate, um. So all of that combined with me

415
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Speaker 1: being sort of like the great hope from my my

416
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Speaker 1: hometown too. You know, Ordre is gonna make it if

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Speaker 1: anybody's gonna make it on Broadway it's gonna be Audre.

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Speaker 1: I the boy was the catalyst. That's sort of like

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Speaker 1: sort of broke that. It was the straw that broke

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Speaker 1: the camel's back. But it was three years of I'm

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Speaker 1: in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing. I'm failing miserably,

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Speaker 1: but I'm here in Disneyland where I'm supposed to be,

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Speaker 1: where I said I wanted to be. So I I

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Speaker 1: I slit my wrists one night. What happened? And you

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Speaker 1: write about this? Have you written about this? I haven't.

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Speaker 1: I guess I should. I speak about it all the time,

427
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,160
Speaker 1: but maybe one day I'll write about it. And found you. Um.

428
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 1: I slit my wrists and then realized what I had

429
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,239
Speaker 1: done and called the student affairs director who I had

430
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 1: become close with, and said, I helped me. Someone came

431
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:31,880
Speaker 1: and helped you, and they helped me, and they took

432
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 1: me to a mental hospital. Um. It's interesting this mental

433
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:42,160
Speaker 1: hospital still there. Um Gracie Square Hospital. It's next door

434
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 1: to um my uh my O B G y N

435
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 1: who delivered my six month old. Uh what a circuit.

436
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,200
Speaker 1: So I almost didn't make it, and now I made

437
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,640
Speaker 1: it and I had to pass it. You know, every

438
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,360
Speaker 1: week to go to my O. B. G. Y N appointment,

439
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,640
Speaker 1: I had to pass Gracie Square Hospital and every time

440
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 1: I passed it, there was a part of me just

441
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 1: you know, waddling down the street. Pregnatives can be some

442
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 1: twenty nine years later, I would, um, I would. I

443
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 1: felt such relief and joy and you know, a sense

444
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,239
Speaker 1: of yes, I I get I get the big picture. Now,

445
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 1: one month in the school year was that that that happened.

446
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 1: It was January or February, So it's at the midpoint.

447
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 1: Let's say, and you take off oficusly and you come

448
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 1: back when you come back the following fall, you don't.

449
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: I came back, um the following fall for a little bit,

450
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: and then I got an opportunity to audition for something

451
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: that ended up being the Secret Garden actually, and I

452
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 1: asked the you know, administration office and my the dean,

453
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: what I should do, and they said, you know, go

454
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 1: do that. It's okay, take the time off to go

455
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 1: do that. It seems like that's where you want to be.

456
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 1: So and they they probably didn't want to disappoint you

457
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 1: at that point. At that point, you want to go,

458
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 1: sing on, bro, go do it. Yeah, we don't ever

459
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 1: want to get your way. You know. The thing is

460
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 1: there was actually a lot, not a lot, but they

461
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,199
Speaker 1: had a special arrangement with Gracie Square Hospital. They were

462
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 1: a couple of other Juilliard students there that I had

463
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 1: wondered what had happened to I was there. I was

464
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,679
Speaker 1: at the hospital for I mean Gray Square, I think

465
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,640
Speaker 1: is private hospital. I was there for a month. Um.

466
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 1: They evaluated me and said, you you're not going anytime soon? Um,

467
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 1: And did that change you? I was so heavily medicated.

468
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 1: They I was heavily medicated. And when you say that,

469
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 1: it's so compelling to me because when I see you,

470
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 1: I think of you. I think of you like you know,

471
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 1: you're so strong your personality and perform I view you

472
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 1: as a person that's going to go. I'm going back

473
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 1: into the burning building to save the baby. Well that

474
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: is me now, But I think maybe that experience helped

475
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: make me that now. I mean, look, I'm still a met.

476
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 1: I mean everybody's a mess, always a mess. I you know,

477
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 1: and I what I understood at going on, Yeah, and

478
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 1: I realized, you know, I'm someone who suffers from depression.

479
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: And but I've learned in the years a how to

480
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 1: deal with it, be to find, you know, find my

481
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: joy and see you to realize that, like alcoholism, it's

482
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 1: something that you wake up every day and you say, yeah,

483
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: that's still something that I have to deal with, as

484
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 1: opposed to saying oh I'm just not depressed anymore. Just

485
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: but to learn how to cope with that and my

486
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: my art gives me a lot of joy and keeps me,

487
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: keeps me strong. So what's the first job you do?

488
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: This is a tired question, but I can't help back

489
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 1: asking upposedly something like you, what's the first job when

490
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,239
Speaker 1: you do? When you sit there and go, I got this.

491
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: I think I got this, Like I'm over the no

492
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: no meaning you know that the sky is the limit

493
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: for you. You're out there and you're doing it and

494
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: you're connecting to that material you know, and you go,

495
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: I think I really really have a shot at my

496
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 1: dream coming true. Here it was Sally Murphy and I

497
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 1: she was she was Julie Jordan, and I played Carrie Pippridge.

498
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: And who was the guy Michael Hayden was Yes, yes, yes,

499
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: Nicker Lincoln Center, which is also crazy for me to

500
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 1: then open in in Carousel at Lincoln Center, where at

501
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: Vivian Momont Theater where you can look up and I

502
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: can see the school that I, you know, had a

503
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 1: hard time in and and I remember standing in those

504
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 1: in those windows at Juniyard, looking at Vivian Beaumont, seeing

505
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: Patti Lapone performing there, and going why am I not

506
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: doing that? And then how do you feel? Um like

507
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: luckier survivor in the world. I mean, and I felt

508
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: a sense of gratitude, a sense of relief, and a

509
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: sense of Okay, I get it, I now get that

510
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: I was on my paths you greet. That was certainly

511
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: one of the most moving conversations I've had during my

512
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: run on Here's the Thing, Thank you, Ordre McDonald. Some

513
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: artists have come on my show, and although I am

514
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: a fan and thrilled to meet them, there aren't necessarily

515
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: any surprises. There were, however, some wonderful surprises. When I

516
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: sat down with Carly Simon, one of the greatest singer

517
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: songwriters in history. Carly revealed her wide ranging knowledge of

518
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: all types of music and music history, and also identified

519
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 1: the man who may be the most important man in

520
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: her life. And no it's not who you think. I

521
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: met Jake at summer Camp. We were both counselors at

522
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 1: Indian Hill Camp in the Berkshires, and Jake was the

523
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: swimming counselor and he also taught literature. These were very

524
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: arty kids, and I was the guitar teacher. All all

525
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: the kids met me for the first time. They had

526
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: known each other from them before. Jake wasn't there yet

527
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: because he had hepatitis and was in the hospital. But

528
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,239
Speaker 1: they said, oh wait till you meet Jake, you'll be

529
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 1: You'll just fall in love with each other or be

530
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: friends for the rest of your life. I don't think

531
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: anybody had ever ever quite introduced me to somebody before

532
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: I actually met them with those terms that they would

533
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: be lifelong friends. And the day that he got there,

534
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: they prepared to cook out. The campers did, and they said,

535
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 1: now we want you to come down to the cookout,

536
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: and Jake will come down to the cookout, and you'll

537
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: stand opposite each other, but with with your backs to

538
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: each other, and at the kind of three, you'll turn

539
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 1: toward each other and light and you'll see what we

540
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 1: mean about that, your two halves of one person. And

541
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: so it was one to three. We turned across this

542
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: fire which was raging between us and we both smiled

543
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: and we recognized each other in ourselves and vice versa,

544
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: and it was quite amazing. And Jake just dropped me

545
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: off here today. What was it about him? Was he

546
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: writing songs? And was he he was a musician and

547
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: into songwriting, And no, Jake was at that point he

548
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: had just graduated from Harvard. He was the editor of

549
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: The Crimson and he went in he was writing for

550
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: Newsweek magazine, he was writing for Talk of the Town,

551
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: and he was he was the young writer on the scene.

552
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: He was the young prose writer on the scene when

553
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: we started writing songs together. He then also got into

554
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: to working with Terence Malock and he worked on Days

555
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 1: of Heaven and on bad Lands, and he wrote King

556
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: of Marvin Gardens with Jack with Jack Nicholson in that.

557
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: And so he's he's a man of all words, most

558
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: of them quite quite funny. He's an unusual beyond journalism

559
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: and screenwriting. He was a lyrict as he was writing lyrics. Well,

560
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: he had never written lyrics before. But I had this

561
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: melody da da da da Da Da Da Da da

562
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: da and the whole song because I've written that for

563
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: an NBC special called Who Killed eerie. That was the

564
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: background music for that. So when I was going to

565
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: make this demo, I couldn't get lyrics for it, because

566
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: if I write a melody first, I can't seem to

567
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: find lyrics to it. It's got to be the other

568
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: way around. I write lyrics first. And so I had

569
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: this melody, and Jake was by then my best friend,

570
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: and I said, do you want to try to write

571
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: a lyric? So I gave him on a little cassette.

572
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: I gave him that melody and he came back a

573
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: day or two later with with a full lyric, except

574
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: for one verse, which we edited out. My friends from college,

575
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: they're all they have their houses and there they have

576
00:29:46,560 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: their silent news tea for saying readin and hate them

577
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: for the things. They hate themselves, Oh what they and

578
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: yet they drink they laugh. Close the wound hid the

579
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: lyrics because there's very pungent lyrics in that song. They

580
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: hate themselves for what they are. Who is he talking about? Well,

581
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: his girlfriend was just about to move in with him.

582
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: Jake and I lived apart, lived one block away from

583
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: each other, but we shared each other's lives and our

584
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: friends were each other's friends. And I met most of

585
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: the people that I know today through through Jake or

586
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: vice versa. So, his girlfriend Rickie was just about to

587
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: move in with him, and he realized that she was

588
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: going to be moving into his rooms. And that's an

589
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: invasion of territory for certain people, And I mean it

590
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: means a whole lot. It means not only are you

591
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: going to be in my rooms, but you're I'm not

592
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: going to be able to get you out of my

593
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: rooms if you're living with me. So, from Jake's point

594
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: of view, that that song was, you know, are we

595
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: going to marry? Are we not going to marry? And

596
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: we had talked a lot about marriage and a lot

597
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: about the fact that being in love with somebody, living

598
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: with somebody didn't necessarily indicate that you had to get married,

599
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: as it had a situation for our years. We're different.

600
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: Um what what what? What? What situation of yours? Were

601
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: you referring the men in your life? Every man that

602
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: I was that I was with, I felt I had

603
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: to marry if I was going to sleep with them,

604
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: or if I was going to have sex with him.

605
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: In any way, I felt as if I as if

606
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: I had to marry them and have children yeah, and

607
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: so times were changing, and this was this was a

608
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: very different era that Kennedy years were upon us and

609
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: the hippie doom, the Woodstock era. The times were hugely changing.

610
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't didn't necessarily have to marry the

611
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: person that you were living with and raise the family

612
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: of our own, you and me. Um, that's the way

613
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: they I've always heard it should be you want to

614
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: marry me, and then oh, will marry you, but with

615
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: resignation exactly. And so that's how the song really came

616
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: to life. Was about the disillusionment of my parents marriage,

617
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: which was about walking home at night and tiptoeing by

618
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: my mother's bedroom and she she calls out, sweet dreams,

619
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: but I forget how to dream, and my father sitting

620
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: in the living room with his cigarette cigarette glows in

621
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: the dark, and so it's it's it's all about the

622
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: separation of the people who are supposed to be married

623
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: or supposed to live in one happy house together for

624
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: really not happy and live being in that house, and

625
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: how that affects you when you see them. You wrote

626
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: a book, and a lot of it includes some of

627
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: your childhood and your marriage and everything you know. You're

628
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: both your marriages, and you I think your book only

629
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: goes up through your first marriage. But the idea being

630
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,479
Speaker 1: that you know, what do you leave in and what

631
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: do you leave out? Well, you know, this was very important.

632
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: When I first got asked to write my memoir was

633
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: six and I was and I was called on the

634
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: phone by Jacqueline Onassis and she said, Carley Carling, you

635
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: would make a wonderful writer of a memoir. And so

636
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: that's how I started, and I wrote about sixty pages

637
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: at that point, and realizing that I was leaving out

638
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: the very nucleus of the story, which was about my

639
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: parents and their marriage and the the thing that happened

640
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: to their marriage, which was that which was the great

641
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: divide of having my brother's tutor come to live with us,

642
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,479
Speaker 1: and he and my mother fell in love, and that

643
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: was a separate relationship which existed in the same house

644
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: that she lived in with my father and us and

645
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: and all and all of the kids. So trying to

646
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: leave that out was almost impossible when that formed the

647
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: very essence of me that I was trying to write

648
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: about in the first place. Everything was a lie. Everything

649
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: that I saw as the truth, I was denied the

650
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: veracity of And so when I said, well, Mom and

651
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: Dad are still in love, aren't they, to my older

652
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 1: sisters that say, yes, they are. They're very much in love.

653
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: And then I would ask my mother and father, you

654
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: know you don't ever kiss? Can I see you kiss?

655
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 1: And my father would bend my mother down in a

656
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: theatrical kind of bogus bogus kiss bous and u. And

657
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: it looked strange to me. There was something very awfu

658
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: about it. But I was supposed to believe that they

659
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: were in love. Perform for you, tend to mollify you

660
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: well once and then she was off with what was

661
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: what was her name, Ronnie? Where was Ronnie from? Ronnie

662
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: was um a teacher or he was going to teaching

663
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: school at Columbia at the time. He was nineteen and

664
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: she was forty two. Where he was from Pittsburgh, Ronnie

665
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: from Pittsburgh, and they were they were in love for

666
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: many years. It killed my father a combination of that

667
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: relationship that she had with Ronnie and the fact of

668
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: his relationship at Simon and Schuster, where he he started

669
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: to do things in a in a way that the

670
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: accountant who they had brought on board in the company,

671
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: this guy named Leon Schuster didn't want him to do

672
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: and said, therefore, my father. At the same time, as

673
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: as he became sort of sick with grief over his

674
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: relationship with my mother, he got more and more out

675
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: of the loop at Simon and Schuster, and they sort

676
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: of tried to move him up or out of the

677
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: mainstream with Max and Leon and and that kind of

678
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: killed him all further. And then he drank too much,

679
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 1: too much, he ate too much ice cream and smoked

680
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: too many cigarettes, and that made him ill. And so

681
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: it was a perfect storm and he got and he

682
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: died at the age of sixty. No sign from people

683
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: who don't know the Simon and Simon and Schuster was

684
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: your father. And yes, at the met Max Schuster, his

685
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: old college friend from Colombia. They met. They were both

686
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 1: selling pianos Steinway, I guess at steinwan Son. And they said,

687
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: let's let's go out to lunch and let's let's go

688
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: into business together. Oh what shall we do? What about books?

689
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: And so they made a little sign which they put

690
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: on the office at the office space that they had rented,

691
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: saying Simon and Schuster publisher What books? And the first

692
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: book that they published was the Crossrood Puzzle Book, which

693
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: made them a fortune and which started them off with

694
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 1: great footing. With good footing, great speed, opportunities galore, and

695
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: they were the very center of the publishing world. And yes, yes,

696
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 1: and your mother where My mother was from Germantown, Pennsylvania.

697
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: Her mother, she by, was Cuban and came to the

698
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: United States on a banana boat. She was Cuban, but

699
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 1: she was from Africa, but her grandmother had spent some

700
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: time in Cuba. I have the whole lineup, or your

701
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 1: part black or you part of Cuban or both. I'm black.

702
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 1: She's an African Africa, Yes, your maternal grandmother. Yes, and

703
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: she was African and went to Cuba. That's right, that's right.

704
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: And then she was schooled in England, and so she

705
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 1: spoke with an English accent, and she was ashamed of

706
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: what she probably didn't even know she was, but she

707
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,720
Speaker 1: bleached her skin her whole life, and so she passed

708
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: as white. But she spoke with an English accent. And

709
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: we used to always ask her about what her background was,

710
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: and she would say, when I die, will find nothing

711
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 1: but nothing. And I never talked about the past. So

712
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,919
Speaker 1: we weren't able to get very much out of mother. Yes,

713
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: we weren't able to get anything out of her, but

714
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: she was such a character. Did your mother have a career?

715
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: My mother did not have an official career. Now, she

716
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: was a singer, but she and she was a wonderful singer,

717
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: but she her career was raising her four kids. In

718
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: your home and your father, from a young age becomes

719
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,959
Speaker 1: a very successful uh publisher in the name is really

720
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 1: a pianist. In fact, when he when he had a

721
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: bunch of heart attacks and strokes towards the end of

722
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: his life and he didn't have his mind and he

723
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: didn't have the capacity of the full fullness of his mind,

724
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: he always thought he was going to Carney Hall, when

725
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: in fact he was just going downtown to dinner with

726
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: my mother, and he said, Sissy, you forgot to get

727
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: off at st I'm going to be late. Because he

728
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: always thought he was going to be playing it. He

729
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 1: didn't always think, but once in a while he had

730
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 1: the fantasy that he was going to be playing at

731
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: Carney Hall. He was a great piano. Classical. Yes, so

732
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: music in your home is classical music. Santastical on the

733
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 1: part of my father and the circle of people coming

734
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: in and out of your home who were celebrities. And

735
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: I have two uncles, one on my father's side and

736
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 1: one on my mother's side, started jazz magazines, one Downbeat

737
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: and the other Metronome. So they were very good friends

738
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: and they and they had all the drummers and the

739
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: jazz players in this house that we lived on the

740
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: eleventh Street, so there was music from from the jazz era,

741
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: and then my mother always sang the show tunes because

742
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: this was the great era of of Oklahoma and Carousal

743
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: and show and Porgy and Bess was actually performed for

744
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,479
Speaker 1: my mother and father first by George and Ira Gersh

745
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: when they came over to our house, and my mother

746
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: was asked to sing summertime since she had a beautiful

747
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: soprano voice, for them to see how it would sound

748
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: in the soprano voice, or to see what it's it's.

749
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what they went over there for,

750
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: but my mother ended up singing soprano and on summertime,

751
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: and my father ended up ended up correcting a couple

752
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: of her notes, and that embarrassed her tremendously, and she

753
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: always used that as the excuses to why she had

754
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 1: an affair and cuckolded him. No one of them. Yes,

755
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 1: that was from my interview with the brilliant, the beguiling

756
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: Carly Simon. One of the most enjoyable times in my

757
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 1: career was when the late Robert Osborne invited me to

758
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: join him on Turner Classic Movies for the Essentials, a

759
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 1: program we ended up doing a few times together. Beyond

760
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: his abundant knowledge about and passion for movies, Osborne was

761
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: one of the most elegant and gracious men I've ever

762
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 1: met in show business, so it comes as no surprise

763
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: that I did him on. Here's the thing, this is

764
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: Robert Osborne. I grew up in a small town where

765
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 1: I went to the movies a lot and fell in

766
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: love with all these people also fell in love with

767
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: the movie business. So all I saw were actors on

768
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 1: the screen. So I thought, well, that's what I have

769
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: to be if I want to be a part of

770
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: the movie business. Nobody then was talking about film editors.

771
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: There were no film schools talking about directing, you know,

772
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: any of that kind of stuff. I decidedn't want to

773
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: be an actor, and so I was doing Did your

774
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 1: parents say about that? That was fine? As long as

775
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: I got an education. People yeah, they were, they were,

776
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: They were not. People had said, you know, be practical,

777
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: get an education and something you can make a living at.

778
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: But do what you want to do. At least try it,

779
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: and then if it doesn't work out, move to something else.

780
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 1: So I started doing a little theater work in Seattle,

781
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: and one of the plays I did was a play

782
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 1: called knightmas Fall with Jane Darwell. Jane Darwell and is

783
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: the lady you would know this who played Henry Fond

784
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: his mother in the Grapes of Wraps and won the

785
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: Oscar for it. And she's the one that said, you know,

786
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: when you finished with this, what are you gonna do

787
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: when you finish your She came up to Washington to

788
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: a regional theater. Yes, And so I said, well, I'm

789
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 1: going to go to New York and she said, no,

790
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: you have more of a California. Look, you should come

791
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,240
Speaker 1: to California. And she said, you can stay at my house.

792
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: She had a staff and all of that kind of stuff.

793
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: They lived down in the valley and she said, you

794
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: can at least get your feet on the ground there.

795
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: I'll introduce you to an agent. She said, I think

796
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,399
Speaker 1: you do very well. So I did Dad with Jane

797
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 1: Darwell and her family at her house on Ethel Avenue

798
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: in the San Fernando Valley. Yes introduced me to an

799
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: agent with m c A. In those days, if you

800
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: could really walk and talk at the same time, you

801
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: could get a contract of the studio. That first one.

802
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: He took me to his Fox and they said, we

803
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 1: want you to be under contract. So I was there

804
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 1: for like six months. And during that period of time,

805
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 1: I did a television show which was a Western. That

806
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: of all, I was doing a little theater group. This

807
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: is a convoluted story, but I'm going to get to

808
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: where I'm going. And it was a theater group run

809
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: by an actor named Francis Lederer. So I was doing

810
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: some impros in the class and one of his friends

811
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 1: came to it and I was Paul Henry, you know

812
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:13,399
Speaker 1: with the two cigarettes with Navis. So Paul Henriid was saying, well,

813
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: I'm directing a western, got a part coming up. I

814
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: think you'd be right for I want you to come

815
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: over and read for it next week. So, you know,

816
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: I was kind of new to all of this, and

817
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 1: I thought, you know, I went to California and I

818
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: got a contract right away and got a part in

819
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: a TV thing right way. I thought, this is kind

820
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 1: of easy. So anyway, I did the TV show and

821
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 1: I had the lead in it for this one episode.

822
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: The stage we shot an outdoor sequence for this Western

823
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: on was where Paul Henry made the Spanish main which

824
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: meant there was also the sound stage where Fred and

825
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: jinjured at all their big dance numbers. So that was

826
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: kind of thrilling to me. Didn't mean anything to anybody

827
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 1: else in the day, Fred who So anyway, I went

828
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 1: back the next day to thank the casting man and

829
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: the people that put me in this thing for the Californians.

830
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: There was this wonderful man, Milt Lewis, who had used

831
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: to be a talent scout of Paramount Studios. He was

832
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: in the office and I thanked him, and he said, well,

833
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: do you have an appointment for the Lucy Ball auditions?

834
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 1: And I said, no, I don't know about any Lucier

835
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: Ball auditions. And he said, well, yeah, she's putting a

836
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: contract group together and so she's going to have these

837
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: auditions and I think there next week, but I'm not sure.

838
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: But let me call up to her office and find

839
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 1: out instead of a secretary answering Lucy answer, and he said,

840
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: I got this guy down here, and I thought he

841
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: might be a good bet for your contract people. So

842
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: she obviously said, well, I'm not doing anything, send him

843
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: up right now. So I went up to this office.

844
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 1: There she was. Now, I have to tell you, I

845
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: was impressed by her, but I didn't see a lot

846
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:50,760
Speaker 1: of I Love Lucy because when that was really hitting

847
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: its peak, I was in college and I was studying.

848
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: I had to study hall. I wasn't didn't watch TV,

849
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: and I loved the movies. If it had been a

850
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: Loana Turner had met her somebody, I wouldn't been able

851
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 1: to talk. But it was Lucille Ball, and she was

852
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: impressed that I'm into college because she hadn't any finished

853
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 1: high school. This I got to know about her later.

854
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: But also she was impressed by the fact I was

855
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: living at Jane Darwell's house because I had asked her

856
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: in our conversation who some of her favorite leading men were,

857
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 1: and she said, leading him in didn't mean that much

858
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: to me. I like working with talented people, but it

859
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: was the character actors I love. She said, I loved

860
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: like Edward Everett Horton and I loved Harpo Marx and

861
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: I love Donald Meek. Well I knew all those people were.

862
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: And she was impressed by that because at that time,

863
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 1: nobody knew who those people were. There was no nostalgia,

864
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: nobody cared. So it's interesting how at that point in

865
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: your life, the passion you had, that curiosity you had

866
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 1: that you've turned into a career. Yeah, the roots of

867
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 1: it were you were just impressing a smaller circle of

868
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 1: people that knowledge when you're there in and and Lucia

869
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 1: is going, God, I love Jane Darnward. Yeah. Yes. So

870
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: she had said, is there any film on you? And

871
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: I said, well, I just did this thing with Paul

872
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: Henry and I've also done a test with Anne Baker.

873
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,919
Speaker 1: And so she called over to Fox. Can I see

874
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: the Diane Baker test, Lucille Ball, how soon can you

875
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: send it over? Lucy was somebody that the minute she

876
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 1: wanted something, she did it. She hung up the phone.

877
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: She said, they're going to send it over. It'll be

878
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: here in about a half an hour. So we kept talking.

879
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: The test was made for Diane, not for me, so

880
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: there was a lot of the back of me. So

881
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: when it was over. Lucy didn't really say anything. She's

882
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: just thanked me for coming by, and I thought, well,

883
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 1: she wasn't that impressed, but at least I got to

884
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,760
Speaker 1: spend some time with Lucille Ball. Like a week later,

885
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: a message comes on my voice. Uh, you're answering service.

886
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 1: Absolutely answering service called Lucille Ball's office right away. Here's

887
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: the number. Hello Lebray and nine and calling answer phone. Yes,

888
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: I called the number, and the second he said, well,

889
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: Lucille Ball wants you to come to dinner on Friday

890
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: night if you're available, and meet DESI. I thought, well

891
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: that's interesting. So I go to Lucy's house at Friday night.

892
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: There's no Desi, but there's Lucy. There's Janet Gayner, there's

893
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: Joseph Cotton, there's Kay Thompson, Chuck Walters, Charles Walters, the

894
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: director Roger Eden's, and a couple of other people, and

895
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,320
Speaker 1: her sister Cleo, who was actually her cousin but raised

896
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 1: as her sister, and me. After the dinner, and they

897
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: were all chatting and laughing and all of that drink drinking.

898
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: Not Lucy. Lucy wasn't no drinker at that point. She

899
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: she learned how to drink a little bit later on,

900
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 1: but not at that point. So we went in the

901
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: living room and on Roxbury, right next door to Jack

902
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: Benny exactly and just down the street from Ira Gershwin

903
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 1: and around the corner from So anyway, after dinner we

904
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 1: went in the living room. She pushes the button and

905
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 1: the painting goes up. Putting another button, the screen comes down,

906
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,919
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, did you ever believe that you would

907
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: ever be? And then I thought, no, way, I always

908
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 1: knew I was going to be here. I remember that thought.

909
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 1: I first started to say automatically, did you ever think

910
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: God and that was the beginning for you? Yeah? And

911
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: I thought, no, I always knew I was going to

912
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: be with people like this, and I relaxed. Then I

913
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: really relaxed as I thought, No, this is where you're

914
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: supposed to yeah, and when you love this is where

915
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be. Where do you remember Funny Face,

916
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: which was which was about three years old that no,

917
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: But what was great about it was there's a part

918
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: in Funny Face when Kate Thompson and Andrew Heppurn get

919
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: up and do a number called on how to Be

920
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: Lovely Together. Kay Thompson got up by the screen. I

921
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: did the number so and it was, you know, fun

922
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: watch the movie. The movie was over, everybody starts to go,

923
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: so I think, well, I'm supposed to go to I

924
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: still don't know quite why I'm here, And it certainly

925
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 1: wasn't Lucy was saying, you know, stay around a little

926
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 1: boy or anything like. It wasn't that. So we got

927
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 1: to the front door, spanking Lucy for the evening. She said, well,

928
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,280
Speaker 1: have you signed a paper yet? And I said, put papers.

929
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 1: I want you another contract. And I said, well, nobody

930
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: said we're doing business, yes, you idiot. Nobody's ever mentioned

931
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,839
Speaker 1: anything about a contract or anything. And she said give

932
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: them an address tomorrow and signed the papers anyone. So

933
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: I was under contract then to Desilu and so that

934
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 1: was for two years. The great thing about it was

935
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:34,439
Speaker 1: is that filming television. It didn't pay us much money

936
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 1: at all, but it was like a masterclass for me

937
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: because there were about twelve of us on the contract,

938
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 1: but there were three of us who were really interested

939
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 1: in the business, and she kind of recognized that right

940
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 1: away and took us under her wing. That's when I

941
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: first met Bettie Davis. Bettie Davis came to l A

942
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: in a play called the World of Carl Sandberg. So

943
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: she took us to the play and then took us

944
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 1: backstage afterwards to meet Betty Davis and Vivian Lee. Came

945
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: a duel of angels, and so she went backstage and

946
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: settled it vivianly. It took us with her. Anytime there

947
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: was somebody like that, Noel Coward or MARLENEA. Dietrich, she

948
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,919
Speaker 1: would take us there pick up the tabs because again

949
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 1: she knew she wasn't paying enough money to keep for

950
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: us to be able to do that. So we got

951
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 1: this terrific education. And she also now Desi at this

952
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: point was womanizing. He wasn't around much. So she would

953
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 1: get movies that we wanted to see or hadn't seen

954
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: because they weren't that accessible in those days and run

955
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 1: them at her house. Or she would show us I

956
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: love Lucy's show. She'd done bad ones and show us

957
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: why they didn't work, then show us a good one

958
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 1: and why it did work. Yes, she also the first

959
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 1: day any of us were in a contract there and

960
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 1: we first met she arrived. She'd just gone to a

961
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 1: bank which was right around the corner from Desilu and

962
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: she got twelve savings accounts that she opened, put like

963
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: fifty dollars in, and she gave us in each of

964
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: our name, gave us to the books. And she said,

965
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 1: every week you have to put something away. And we were,

966
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 1: as I say, making very little money, and say, Lucy,

967
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: you know we don't barely enough to to live on.

968
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 1: She said, it can be only five dollars, but every

969
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: week put something away. You won't miss it. It'll add up.

970
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: Very maternal and she said, no matter what, the thing

971
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: you must do is have enough money that you don't

972
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: have to make decisions based on money. For a kid

973
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: from Colfax, Washington, this was just invaluable. I've been to college,

974
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 1: but I never had these kind of life lessons. In

975
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 1: the course of it, she meant, my folks, and she

976
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 1: got to know me. She said to me early on,

977
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:42,320
Speaker 1: you can do this as an actor. But she said,

978
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: and I think you could do well, but it's not

979
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: gonna make you happy. This is not the right line

980
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: of work for you. And she said, you love old films,

981
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 1: you love history, you love everything about the business. And

982
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: you're a journalist and major in college. We have enough

983
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: actors you should write about movies. And the first thing

984
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: you should do is write a book. Who said this

985
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 1: to you, Lucy? She said, it doesn't even have to

986
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 1: be a good book. But find a subject about the

987
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 1: movies that nobody's done and write a book about it.

988
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: And I said why. She said, if you write a book,

989
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: it shows you have to discipline to sit down and

990
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: do that. Yes, I did. What book? It was a

991
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,919
Speaker 1: book about the Oscars? Is this the book right here? Oh?

992
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 1: My god, yeah, Academy words. I want our listeners to

993
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: know that stunned expression. I show a copy of the

994
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: book that he is amazing. Yes, there he was. I

995
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 1: know that his fans a turn of classic movies, Miss

996
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 1: Robert Osborne. I know that because I'm one of them.

997
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 1: I saved a very special guest for last. John Robin

998
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 1: Bates or Robbie to his friends, is a great writer

999
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 1: and an intoxicating racontour. This is, without a doubt, one

1000
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 1: of my all time favorite. It's the details he shares

1001
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: and the insights into his work and life are so

1002
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: beautifully crafted. His story is so smart and funny. He

1003
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,399
Speaker 1: should have his own show. I found myself very much

1004
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 1: like the character in my play played by Beth Marvel

1005
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: and Rachel Griffith at various points a writer who is

1006
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 1: a dangerous creature. And I had a note to myself

1007
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 1: play about daughter of a famous family who writes a

1008
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 1: book about her growing up in this family, something like that,

1009
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: the danger of telling the truth that turns out to

1010
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 1: be a lie. And at that moment, this lady of

1011
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: a certain age walked by me, and she looked to

1012
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:54,359
Speaker 1: me like um Pat Buckley, the old Diane of New

1013
00:53:54,440 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 1: York conservative politics, the wife of Bill Buckley. Bill Buckley

1014
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 1: and I had had lunch with her once and found

1015
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 1: her to be charming and engaged. And this woman walked

1016
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 1: by me on this beach with her hat and in

1017
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:13,320
Speaker 1: a one piece bathing suit. I immediately felt the mother

1018
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 1: in that play. And I suddenly remembered old California the

1019
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 1: way it was when I was a kid, and we

1020
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: were just in the throes of an election at the time,

1021
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: too were about to be and the Republicans of certainly

1022
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: of that period and even more so today, we're very

1023
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 1: confusing to me because deem recognizable to me as having

1024
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: a coherent, cohesive coach and argument for their principal positions,

1025
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: which had to be principled in some way. The play

1026
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 1: just came together in one fell swoop, old California conservatives,

1027
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 1: the old Hollywood system, Reagan nights. I even remembered I'd

1028
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 1: gone to high school with I think, the daughter of

1029
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: John Gavin, and I thought, you know, because I love

1030
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: Touch of Evil, and I think, isn't John Gavin. No,

1031
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: he's not in Touch of Evil. He's in Psycho case

1032
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: in all these movies. And I thought about he was

1033
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 1: the ambassador to Mexica. That's right, as is the Stacy

1034
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: Keach character in my play. And I thought about your

1035
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 1: characters based on John Gavin to some extent, they're all

1036
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 1: these archetypes. At the back of all this, of course,

1037
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 1: there's also Joe Mentello, who you know, we're no longer

1038
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 1: a couple, but he's my family, my best friend, and

1039
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 1: you see, being a couple of one year, two thousand

1040
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,879
Speaker 1: and two. So it was a while and he kept

1041
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 1: saying to me, with all possible respect, nobody's waiting for

1042
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 1: the next Robbie Bates play. And you know, these are

1043
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 1: chilling words because I have so much to say and

1044
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: it's not coming out. My equivalent of that, as my

1045
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 1: agent said to me, he goes, It's not that these

1046
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 1: people don't want to hire you because they don't like you.

1047
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 1: He says, they don't want to hire you because they

1048
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: don't think of you at all all. Jesus, Well, it's terrible,

1049
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 1: because the worst thing that can happen to an artist,

1050
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 1: I'm invisible. I no longer matter for me. Writing plays

1051
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 1: has always been very tricky. I don't know a lot.

1052
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,359
Speaker 1: I don't have a lot to say. I reached things

1053
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: very slowly, and I I sometimes it seems facile and easy,

1054
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 1: and to me some of the times my thoughts and

1055
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 1: my sort of expressed opinions in place seem hollow or naive,

1056
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: even because I know they're deeper truths always to be

1057
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 1: found and that I'm But don't you think that seeking

1058
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 1: them and being aware of that makes you more likely

1059
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 1: to find it than anybody? You didn't go to college?

1060
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 1: Did you know why you wanted educating yourself? I wish

1061
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: I had gone to college. It was a depressed and

1062
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 1: unsettled kid. And why I don't. I think I wasn't

1063
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 1: at peace with probably any element of who I was,

1064
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 1: whether it was a sort of nascent intellectual or sort

1065
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: of pre expressive homosexual, kid or grew up where variously

1066
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 1: l A from you were born Where in l A

1067
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 1: and you lived seven then Brazil for three years in Rio,

1068
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 1: and then South Africa for six and a half years

1069
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 1: until I was eighteen. And your father was in the

1070
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 1: condensed milk business. My father worked for a giant multinational

1071
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: carnation milk. Yeah, it was a condensed milk business. So

1072
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 1: l A, Brazil, South Africa, and then back to LA.

1073
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:43,919
Speaker 1: When you finally get back to l A. How old

1074
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 1: are you? So high school is over? I just finished

1075
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 1: high school. I sort of lost time through all the

1076
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: travels high school in South Africa, like I couldn't get

1077
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: used to things like cricket and corporal punishment, you know,

1078
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 1: you'd get cane for, like not doing well on a

1079
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 1: spelling test literally came and I think I was so

1080
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: busy trying to be sly and charming that I forgot

1081
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: how to be me. That I think led me to

1082
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: rebel against learning itself. So I was sort of interested

1083
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 1: in the few things. I was interested in literature history,

1084
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: but I wouldn't apply myself to anything except escape, and

1085
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 1: part of escape meant not going to college. I was

1086
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 1: really lonely, and I I kind of became a depressed

1087
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 1: kid and that manifests it stuff. If you can say

1088
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: I think I did you know you were gay? Then yes,

1089
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 1: I definitely knew that. I knew that add to your

1090
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 1: depression didn't make you feel more isolated. It wasn't proactive

1091
00:58:51,000 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: the gay community there in talk about getting caned. Yeah, well, um,

1092
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,959
Speaker 1: I think my parents, who loved me very much, were

1093
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: distracted by their own terrors. There are certain families that

1094
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: are born in terror and live in terror. Um, conceived

1095
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 1: in terror? I need you to write a player for me.

1096
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 1: I want to be called conceived in terror? Go ahead, well, no,

1097
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: I mean death of a salesman is is a family

1098
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 1: that lives in terror? You were how old when you

1099
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: arrived in Durban? Ten to the eight years? Yeah? I

1100
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 1: was there almost eight years critical time, ten years or

1101
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 1: so all of your real back half of your childhood,

1102
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 1: your teenage years, especially you are in Durban. I guess

1103
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 1: it was seventeen or something when we left. But you

1104
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:46,000
Speaker 1: had finished the high school program. No, no, I finished

1105
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:50,440
Speaker 1: it in l A. You did? Where? What was that? Like? I?

1106
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 1: You know, was the only kid I knew who rode

1107
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 1: their bike to school? Because everybody else's parents had given

1108
00:59:56,680 --> 01:00:00,680
Speaker 1: them a fiad literally yeah or something. Who were your

1109
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:03,479
Speaker 1: friends then? Who did you become friends with? Anyone? Oh? Yeah?

1110
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 1: In fact, Jenny Livingston went on to make Paris Is Burning,

1111
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 1: great documentary, Tina Landau great theater director. Gina Gershawn my

1112
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: oldest friend from high school. We were in place together

1113
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 1: in the drama department. So I became friends with and

1114
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: I say this with real respect and love with fellow freaks.

1115
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 1: How are you feeling about yourself and about life that

1116
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: last year in Beverly Hills. I think I was scared

1117
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 1: to death still. I mean, it was just a new

1118
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 1: form of foreignness, but it had the pattern of something

1119
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 1: very familiar to me. But you know, I remember being

1120
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:42,439
Speaker 1: taken to a party really early on, and I had

1121
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 1: developed a kind of weird eye beforehand for art. I

1122
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 1: thought maybe I was going to be a painter or

1123
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 1: an artist storian. And I walked into this house and

1124
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 1: there is a giant David Hackney and next to it

1125
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 1: is a giant Mother. Well, I'm ending in front of

1126
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 1: this giant painting that's famous that I've looked at in

1127
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 1: books Thames and huts and art books. While I was

1128
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 1: in Durban at the Art Library of the University. I know,

1129
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 1: the world was just very real and different, and it

1130
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 1: was easier to like have sex, and it was easier

1131
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 1: to to function. Were you writing? I guess I was

1132
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:27,440
Speaker 1: sort of writing, Yeah, what were you writing? I was

1133
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: writing really bad short stories about alienated Paul Bull's kids

1134
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:39,640
Speaker 1: adrift in foreign countries, which is basically tell you that truth.

1135
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 1: Still what I'm doing. It just looks slightly the wallpapers prettier. Now,

1136
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 1: where were you living at that? I was living um

1137
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 1: on friends sofas, like the parents of children I went

1138
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:57,440
Speaker 1: to high school with. I was. I was just this freak,

1139
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 1: you know. And I was at it with my family

1140
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: at the time, you know, and I had escaped and

1141
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:07,200
Speaker 1: it was just a nightmare. How do we get from

1142
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 1: there to fair Country? Gordon Davidson, you know in Pinocchio

1143
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 1: where he falls in with actors. I'm walking around. I

1144
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 1: ran into this girl I knew from high school. She said,

1145
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 1: what are you doing? And I'm sort of looking for

1146
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 1: a job. I think I'm starving to death. I'm not sure,

1147
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 1: she said to me, And I should have known. She said, well,

1148
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:37,080
Speaker 1: my father just fired me. He needs to he needs

1149
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:39,440
Speaker 1: a new assistant and I was like, well, what does

1150
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 1: he do and she said, oh, he's a film producer.

1151
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 1: Who was the film producer. This is great guy, and

1152
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 1: he was. He a working producer. I'm only asking for

1153
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 1: a name. My first day at the office, he says

1154
01:02:56,120 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: to me, whatever you do, answer the phones, but never

1155
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 1: pick up the phone. And I was like, I don't

1156
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 1: even know what that means. And he said, you'll do fine.

1157
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 1: And he had a gang of cronies, all of whom

1158
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 1: had contempt for the studio system and had worked around

1159
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 1: the edges of it, or in it, had done well,

1160
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 1: fallen out of favor, usually had destroyed themselves through my

1161
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 1: favorite thing, their own ambivalence. I found myself at home

1162
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:31,120
Speaker 1: for the first time in my life win the nest

1163
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 1: of scorpions. Yes I did, I found myself. I said this,

1164
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:39,440
Speaker 1: I know, yeah, because nobody is trying to pass. It's

1165
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:42,280
Speaker 1: a den of thieves here. It was still the days

1166
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 1: of speaker phone and they would have fights. They had

1167
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,400
Speaker 1: a tower on Sunset Boulevard. They had a nest of

1168
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:51,280
Speaker 1: rooms in a tower and they would be fighting with

1169
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:53,440
Speaker 1: each other and then they would suddenly be a pause.

1170
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,920
Speaker 1: Someone would say, geez, if you could see what I

1171
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 1: see right now, that girl walking on sunset. She is

1172
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:07,120
Speaker 1: so beautiful. The fight was over. Yeah, nothing meant any

1173
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 1: codic of sex. That's right. One of the masks for

1174
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 1: a glass of waters. My first few weeks there two

1175
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 1: what do I know. I would go to the sink,

1176
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 1: bring a glass of waters, spit it out like practically

1177
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 1: on me and say this isn't water, and I would say, yes,

1178
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 1: it's water. What are you talking about? That's water. It's

1179
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 1: I want professional water. And the whole time became about

1180
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 1: professional water. Robbie Bates. I could listen to you talk

1181
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 1: all day long. Well that's it. We started in the

1182
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 1: fall of two thousand eleven and we've conducted over two

1183
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 1: hundred interviews since then. Thank you all for listening, and

1184
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 1: again my thanks to w n y C. But we're

1185
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 1: not done. I'm excited to announce that the podcast is

1186
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,960
Speaker 1: moving to the I Heart podcast Network. We're going to

1187
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 1: take a few weeks off, and we will be back

1188
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 1: on January twelve with new episodes. If you're already a subscriber,

1189
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 1: you don't have to do anything different to get the

1190
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 1: new episodes. You'll still be subscribed and the show will

1191
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 1: still be available wherever you listen to podcasts, whether that's

1192
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 1: the I heart app, Apple podcast, or anywhere you listen

1193
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 1: to podcasts. That's all for now. We'll be back soon

1194
01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:28,080
Speaker 1: on iHeart with more. Here's the thing.