WEBVTT - Flew the Coop PT 1 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:06.960 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:09.760 last twenty five years writing about true crime. 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:13.040 And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.639 worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:20.040 Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:21.880 compelling true crimes. 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.479 And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:26.280 new insights to old mysteries. 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:31.880 Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:34.600 cases through a twenty first century lens. 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.000 Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:45.680 This is buried bones. 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:02.320 Hey, Kate, how are you? 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:04.120 I'm great, Paul, how are you? 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:06.320 I am doing good? What's going on? 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.080 Have you done very much ancestry stuff? And I don't 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:14.280 mean Golden State killer genealogy stuff. I mean you Paul Holes. 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.679 Have you traced any ancestors using ancestry at all? 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:19.120 No? I definitely have. 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:21.160 Okay, did you find anything interesting? 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:21.640 Yeah? 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:23.880 You know it's as you go back in time, the 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:28.080 family spreads out, if that makes any sense. My dad's 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.800 side of the family. You know, the Hole's surname. When 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:35.160 you go back several centuries. We actually came from England 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.560 and it wasn't holes, it was whole as in singular, 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.160 which was interesting to me because I worked with a 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.920 da by the name of Bob Hole and we always 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:46.360 just kind of chuckled because you never run across people 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:50.120 with the whole surname or whole surname, and good chance 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:53.280 Bob and I are probably related. Unfortunately he passed away 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:56.400 quite a few years ago now, but you know, going 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:01.559 back on my dad's mom's side, that's a very Germanic lineage. 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:01.880 You know. 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:05.560 Also finding you know, a town in Germany where at 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.560 least the Wolf side of the family originated out of, 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:11.880 you know, so things like that. It's pretty cool to 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.680 get that kind of information about your your ancestors. 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:17.680 Have you ever uploaded your DNA or are you against that? 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:20.240 When I was trying to figure out how to do 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:24.920 the genealogy with a Golden State killer case, my parents 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:28.760 had actually tested themselves at Ancestry, and you can't upload 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.760 a profile from some other place into Ancestry. You have 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.040 to send your DNA to Ancestry to have it go 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:38.079 into Ancestry, but they allow you to download those profiles, 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:40.840 so I downloaded both my parents' profiles and put it 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.000 into a website called jedmatch, And jed match is the 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:46.519 one that you can upload profiles if you've been tested 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:50.200 at twenty three and meters or ancestry, et cetera. And 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:53.160 so I did that and of course got the you know, 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:57.200 the various distant relatives that share a percentage of their 0:02:57.280 --> 0:02:59.920 DNA with my parents. And then ultimately I put my 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:01.840 DNA up there because I want to be able to 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.400 help cases, you know, And so I opted in so 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:07.360 law enforcement can use my DNA in case, you know, 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:11.240 somebody that's related to me is responsible for a crime. 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.160 Well, I'm relieved you're not a hypocrite. First of all, 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.639 jet Match is the one that law enforcement are able 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:20.520 to use directly, Right do they have to get like 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:21.880 subpoenas or anything like that. 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.600 So you have two websites that law enforcement can use, 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:30.240 and that is jetmatch and Jetmatch. The users have to 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:35.040 explicitly opt in to allow law enforcement to search their profiles. 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.360 If they don't opt in, they can still utilize jet 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:42.640 Match for genealogy purposes, and their profiles are not searchable 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:46.280 for law enforcement. The other database law enforcement uses is 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:48.960 Family tree DNA, and that's something that is now being 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:53.240 managed by my employer author. The other websites like ancestry 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:55.920 and twenty three and meters do not permit law enforcement 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:56.920 to search their databases. 0:03:57.560 --> 0:03:59.520 Got it, Well, this was all a big lead up 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.120 to a funny story. I think it's funny, at least 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:07.000 from the listener's last viewer. Her name's Ellen, and she 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:11.000 seems lovely. She emailed me very early, or I received 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.360 it very early, a couple of weeks ago, and it 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:17.359 was like a I searched ancestry. I'm trying to figure 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.280 out what happened to my I think it was her 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:23.080 great great grandfather. He came from Sweden, went to New 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.440 Orleans and then sort of vanished. And the family rumor, 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:29.120 and we know all about family rumors here, the family 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.559 rumor was that he was murdered and then tossed off 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:37.040 a doc in New Orleans. So I said, okay, let 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:39.800 me dig around because a lot of people, you know, 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:42.599 they'll look on ancestry and they'll do the general search. 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:45.440 But I subscribe to newspapers dot Com. Huge shout out 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:47.760 to newspapers dot com. Love him, love him, love him. 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:50.880 I've been using it. For I think probably about ten years. 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.000 So I just hopped on and this guy's first name 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:56.359 is Axel, and then there was a middle name and 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:58.760 then a last name that were way too complicated for 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:02.560 me to even pronounce here. So I looked nothing, nothing 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.440 from this guy with the first and named Axel middle 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:09.680 last name in newspapers dot com, which was really unusual 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.720 for me. I usually can dig up something. And then 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:14.560 she said, this is when he was born, and you 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:16.479 know all of this and this is where. So what 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:19.720 she knew from ancestry was where he was born in Sweden, 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:23.159 the year and the approximate birthday, and that was basically it. 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.360 She couldn't find immigration papers or anything like that. So 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:31.200 from my time writing American Sherlock, I was going crazy 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.680 trying to figure out why my forensic scientist Oscar Heinrich 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.280 couldn't stand his father. He was so mad at his father, 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:39.960 and I couldn't figure out what was happening. And about 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.599 two weeks before my deadline to send American Sherlock to 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.560 my editor, I was futson around at three in the 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:50.000 morning like I do sometimes, and I misspelled his father's 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:54.480 name in newspapers dot com and up pops all this information. 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.520 His father took his own life because of the family finances. 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:00.279 And that's why I mean all of this, just because 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:04.120 they spelled his last name wrong. So I misspelled this 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:08.159 guy Axel's middle name, and up pops a treasure trove 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:11.360 of information. Most importantly, the first thing I saw was 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:17.040 a prison photo of this guy. Oh really, I know, 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.920 you said. You think that he came to America in 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.680 nineteen seventeen or maybe before. He was in prison in 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:26.280 Sweden in nineteen fourteen. I don't know why, but it 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.479 was a you know, very menacing photo. When I sent 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.760 it to her, and because of the last it was 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:33.440 literally one letter. It was the letter R that I changed. 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:35.680 She was able to trace everything. And she said, I 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:37.320 don't think he was tossed off a dog. I think 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:39.520 he died at sea because he served in the I 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:42.520 think she said the Navy, maybe, so all of it. 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.280 It was one letter that changed all of this and 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.320 sort of I think she was able to put together 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.359 some pieces about this part of the family, and the 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:54.000 family still talks about this, and this happened in you know, 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:58.719 nineteen fifteen, nineteen sixteen. So when I say it's important, 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:02.200 the work we do is important to people. Even though 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:06.160 this is generations back, the family's still talking about it 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.160 over Thanksgiving. They're talking about this guy. It has been 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:11.760 dead for more than one hundred years. So please to 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:14.480 the listeners. I don't do this for many people. I 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:16.720 think I was just bored this morning when I did it, 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.680 just like, okay, whatever, what the hell help is it? 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:23.760 But it was so funny to just see this prison photo. 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:26.400 She wasn't phased by that, but you know, I mean 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:28.240 that little bit. And I know you probably know this 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:30.640 from law enforcement too. Just you know, people when they're 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.440 using a different name, and man, you can be really stymied. 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:35.400 I was so frustrated. But then all of a sudden, 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:37.800 I get all of this information with just one letter, 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:38.840 which was crazy for me. 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.240 Well, and I've experienced that myself when I was, you know, 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:46.160 doing the genealogy and would rely on newspapers dot com 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:49.120 in order to flesh out family trees. And what what 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:53.040 I have found is, you know newspapers, you know, they 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:57.800 scan those old papers and then they optical character recognition 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:02.320 OCR and some letters or some fonts. It doesn't do 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:04.320 a good job. So I have run into the same 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.520 situation where now I'm trying different permutations of the spelling 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.320 of the name, and then we'll have success. And I 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:14.600 don't know if newspapers dot Com allows for wild card searching, 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:18.040 where you can put like the asterisk in for it 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.560 could be any letter at this location in the name. 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:23.840 If they don't do that, that is actually very helpful 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:27.679 because of this ocr problem that I've run across. 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.520 Well, it was a huge deal to me with American Sherlock, 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.520 because you know, it answered so many questions that were 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:37.199 important to me in the book. But I think for Ellen, 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:39.839 she was pleased to receive all less information. And I 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:43.440 knew something was wrong because everybody, even in the eighteen hundreds, 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:46.040 everybody showed up in the newspaper one way or the other. 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:50.160 And I think I found his subsequent children or grandchildren 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.360 or something because that exact kind of name with a 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.199 different middle name was popping up. But anyway, I thought 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.760 that was a funny story, just about searching for family members. 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.400 And you know, if you thought that people complain about 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:04.360 the inaccuracy of newspapers, now you should try doing what 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:07.120 I do in reading eighteen hundreds newspapers. Man, I mean, 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:09.360 just the wildest names. 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:12.800 Every no for sure, you know, but it really just underscores, 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:16.559 you know, how technology is giving access to data that 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:20.560 before you'd have to go into a library and flip 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:24.160 through paper copies of newspapers if they even had, you know, 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:25.440 the addition that you needed. 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:29.960 Yeah, Mike Rafficha, I've done that many times too, and yeah, 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:32.840 so this was this was quite an experience. It was 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:36.400 another good reminder of just trying to stick with something, 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.040 you know, sort of the perseverance. It wasn't my family, 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:40.000 but it was fun to do. 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:41.400 No, very cool. 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.240 Well, talk about media, we are getting rend to step 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.040 into a media circus here with the story that we're 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:50.000 going to do. It's going to be a two parter 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:51.920 because it's a pretty big story and it was a 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:55.160 really big deal when it happened. Where we're heading is 0:09:55.559 --> 0:10:00.640 the nineteen twenties, almost mid nineteen twenties England, which sounds 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:03.160 very romantic to me. It was not, I think at 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:07.120 this time period, certainly World War One. This story I 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:11.640 think really gets to the heart of relationships and trying 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:16.120 to sort out what happened to our victim, because it's 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:18.120 a big question mark for me right now. 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:21.600 All right, So England, that's one of your favorite. 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:24.559 Places it is, So get some tea and a crumpet 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:26.520 if you've ever had you had a crumpet before. I 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:28.839 love them, love them, No, I don't think, so I'll 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:34.920 make you some some time. Okay, let's set the scene. Okay, 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:38.120 Like I said, the case is in England and it's 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:40.800 the early nineteen twenties, and we have two main players 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:42.880 here and we have to sort out. This is a 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.760 I feel like the smallest cast of characters we might 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.000 have worked with here, but we'll see what you think. 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:52.160 And then a very very very very famous pathologist that 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:55.120 you'll recognize immediately because we've talked about them before. So 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.920 this is an intriguing case. So one of our main 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:01.920 people is named Norman Thorn, and in the nineteen twenties, 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.440 very early nineteen twenties, he meets a young woman named 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:09.120 Elsie Cameron and she's a typist. So Norman and Elsie 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:13.280 and they meet at church. They are now falling in love. 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:17.080 And Norman, just so we know about kind of ages 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:21.000 and stuff, Norman's about twenty and Elsie is about two 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.160 years older. So at this point, if you want to 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:26.280 go ahead and open up your photos, you can see 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:28.200 a photo of the two of them. I will say 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.640 I am struck by. I feel like they both look 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:33.520 a little older than twenty and twenty two. 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:37.199 Okay, so I'm looking at I'm assuming this is this 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:38.960 is a Norman and Elsie. 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.160 Norman is seated, Elsie is standing. 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.400 It's just like a typical family, you know, portrait with 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:46.040 this couple. 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:48.640 Norm's got a three. 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:52.760 Piece suit on Elsie's you know, just got a dress. 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.280 And yeah, I would not have expected that they were 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:57.360 as young as they are by looking at their photos. 0:11:57.360 --> 0:11:58.760 They do look more mature. 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:00.360 But you know, that's what it seems like if you 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.840 ever look at like I look at my parents' yearbooks, 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:05.320 and everybody in there, even though they're. 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.400 High schoolers, look like they're in their thirties. 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:10.199 What do you think that was? Like just a hard 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:11.400 life or I. 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:14.640 Don't know, it seems consistent too, you know. 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.719 Yeah, absolutely. You know when we do these stories from 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.559 the eighteen hundreds, and it's always when they're on a farm, 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:23.040 boy they look rough, and I know it's sun exposure 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:26.560 and just hard work and stuff. But I sort of 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:28.840 picked up on that they both look a little older 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:32.319 than what they are. But anyway, so we've got Norman 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:34.920 and we've got Elsie and they meet at church they 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:39.440 fall in love. So in nineteen twenty one, Norman is working. 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:42.560 He's either an engineer or kind of an electrician in 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.320 training one or the other. But he's he has a 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:47.760 good job, it sounds like. But he loses that job 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:51.560 in nineteen twenty one and no word on why, but 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.600 it doesn't sound like anything controversial. He loses this job 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:56.480 so he has to get back on his feet. So 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:58.920 his parents want to help him out. He's close with 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.240 his parents and they give him some land in an 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:06.880 area called crowbro which is in East Sussex, and this 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:10.120 is about a train ride away from London. He is 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:14.680 not particularly close physically to Elsie. She's staying with her parents. 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.960 She's also remember quite young, but they're able to see 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:21.679 each other. So this guy who had gone from being 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.440 an engineer or an electrician now starts his life over 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.600 as a chicken farmer, which seems pretty different. Yes, So 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:33.840 he is living in a tiny hut on the property. 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.240 It is eighty five square feet. Oh wow, my cottage 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:42.280 is I think about one seventy five square feet, so 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:44.640 you know he's living in half the space of where 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.560 I am right now, which is very small. I was 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:49.680 going to ask you this. You know, I lived in 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:51.640 a very small space when I lived in New York. 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.080 I was in the Greenwich Village. I was, you know, 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:59.200 literally right on where NYU is, and my bathroom was 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:01.560 so small, was literally in a closet. My bathroom was 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:05.560 so small that you could pee and brush your teeth 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:08.960 at the same time because the sink was right there. 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:12.440 That's probably Tami. And then our kitchen was also in 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:14.800 a closet, and you could have your foot on the 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:17.440 bathtub actually in the bathtub, all at the same time 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:19.640 if you needed to. So have you lived in a 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:20.680 small space before? 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:21.400 You know, the. 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:26.040 Smallest space was when I was living in It's actually 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.800 a relatively upscale town called Wamut Creek in the East Bay. 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:31.240 Oh yeah, I love Walnut Creek. 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:35.600 Yeah, it's an amazing town. And I rented a small 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.920 studio which it did have a small kitchen. It had 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:43.120 just a single room that doubled as the bedroom and 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:46.680 then a small bathroom. Now I couldn't pee and brush 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.200 my teeth in this bathroom, nor would I want to 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:50.080 try to do that. 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.320 But I never tried. Paul I'm just saying that that's 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:54.240 how small it was. 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.840 So that's probably in terms of me individually, that's probably 0:14:57.840 --> 0:14:59.720 the smallest space that I've personally lived in. 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.720 Norman's in a very small space, so eighty five square feet, 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.560 and I've been calling it a cottage. I don't think 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.560 it is. They're calling it the hut. He's not making 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:14.560 very much money as a chicken farmer. It doesn't sound 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.360 like he had that much experience to begin with, but 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:19.680 he's making a go of it because I don't think 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:22.720 he feels like he has much of a choice. Why 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.800 don't I show you what the farm looks like. So 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.720 if you scroll down past that photo of Norman and Elsie, 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.080 you'll see the farm on the second page, and you'll 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:34.920 see the hut. I think that's the hut. Tell me 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:35.520 what you see? 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:37.200 Yeah, you know, So this is a photo. 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:41.520 It looks like it's taken from the perspective of a 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:45.280 road and possibly just a dirt road, and then there's 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:50.280 a gate that in essence is in between the road 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:55.800 and where the structures are, and behind this gate appears 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.160 to be just a drive area that goes back to 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.480 where now I see, I mean, it looks like a 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.560 log cabin, you know, from this photo, it's it's not 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:07.920 more much more than that, Yeah, you know, surrounded by 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:09.360 some land and some equipment. 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:12.040 Yeah, I mean it looks and you see the chicken 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:13.840 coops kind of around. It looks like there might be 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.040 one attached to the cabin thing. 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:18.160 What do you think I can see that? Yeah, I 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:18.800 think that's right. 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:22.200 Yeah, this is pretty small. So, you know, this seems 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.800 like a big difference, lifestyle difference for Norman. But like 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:27.960 I said, he's making a go of it. He and 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:31.680 Elsie are still together and actually a year after they 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:35.560 sort of you know, separate, physically separate, they get engaged 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.640 by nineteen twenty two. But it seems like this distance 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:43.240 is sort of getting to Norman and he is starting 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:46.400 to cool on the relationship by you know, shortly after 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:50.120 when they get engaged. So I think Elsie is feeling 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.760 like there's a growing disconnect between the two of them, 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.680 and it sounds like Elsie was really in love with him, 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:00.480 but Norman was keeping his distance alone a little bit 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.040 to keep the relationship alive. Elsie takes the train to 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.560 visit Norman much more often than he goes to visit her, 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:11.280 so November of nineteen twenty four. I mean, remember that 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:13.560 this has been a year and a half that she's 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:17.159 been trying to keep this relationship going because she really 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:19.879 loves him and they're both, you know, part of a church. 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.119 It sounded like actually that they were both Sunday school 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.920 teachers at one point, so having a relationship with him 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.960 and getting married is really important to her. In November 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:35.320 of nineteen twenty four, Elsie writes to Norman that she's pregnant. 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:39.200 So the way this would have gone in quote unquote 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:41.960 proper society in this time period is they would not 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:44.600 have had sex. Then he asked her to marry him, 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.720 and then quite possibly she said okay, because you're committing 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.720 to me. So that's how I think we get around 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.479 the whole idea that you know, she seemed devout, you know, 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.359 maybe a devout Christian. But then then, of course, this 0:17:57.440 --> 0:17:59.800 is where we've talked about the Heartbahm lawsuits that come 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:01.520 out when a man says, marry me, and then they 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:03.719 have sex and then he's tired of her, and then 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.040 he leaves and she's sort of quote unquote ruined. So 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:09.480 she says that she's pregnant. I mean, I don't know 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:11.960 how many times I can say this that the number 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:15.919 one reason pregnant women die is murder and postpartum also, 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.280 so you know already, even though I haven't told you 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:21.960 who the victim is, we have somebody who is at risk. 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:26.679 He's distanced himself from her, and now he believes she's pregnant. 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:27.920 So what do you think so far? 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.679 Well, do you know how far along she is in 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:32.359 the pregnancy? 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.960 She does not tell him, but it doesn't sound like 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:41.679 her parents know. And I would assume that she, you know, 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:44.720 noticed that she wasn't getting her period anymore, and that 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:48.120 was the conclusion. I don't hear anything about a doctor, 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:51.199 her going to a doctor, and you know, confirming it 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:55.160 that way. So she's making some assumptions. It doesn't sound 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:56.960 like very far along though. 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:58.959 I guess, you know, some of the questions that I 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:01.119 pop into my mind because I know this is going 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:05.040 to end tragically for Elsie in all likelihood. You know, 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:09.720 if she's indicating to Norman that she's pregnant, does he 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:12.920 have concern that the child is not his? Which from 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:16.919 a victimology standpoint, doesn't sound like Elsie would necessarily be 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.840 having sex with some other man. You know, so that's 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:23.600 probably a little bit unlikely. But does Norman feel that, 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:26.480 you know, as he's growing more and more distance in 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:30.000 the relationship, is Elsie using the pregnancy sort of to 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:30.600 trap him? 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:30.800 You know? 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.880 So if Elsie ultimately ends up murdered, then of course 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:37.720 there's some concern about what Norman's motive may be based 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:40.200 off of his stance in this relationship and how he's 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:41.160 feeling about Elsie. 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:44.080 Absolutely, and you know, when you were saying if Norman's 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.800 concerned about her sleeping with somebody else, I get the 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:50.040 impression that he is ready to cut ties with Elsie. 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.920 He probably would have been happy if she had been 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:55.159 with somebody else. But I also don't know the egos 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:57.640 of men in the nineteen twenties. But I think you're 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.439 right kind of based on her in general. Like that 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:02.800 photo that I showed you look almost like a church photo, 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:05.920 like somebody took it posing outside of the church. I'm 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.680 not seeing Elsie sleeping around, but you're right, who knows. 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:12.440 So she is freaking out when she finds out she's pregnant. 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:16.360 She says to Norman, I want to get married as 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:19.879 soon as possible, which, of course makes sense because this 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.359 would not be a good thing socially for her, and 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.119 I'm assuming her parents would not approve of this, and 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.520 she lives with them. But Norman is characteristically of Norman, 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:32.760 very wishy washy with her, and he says that I've 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.080 got some news for you. Instead of saying this face 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:37.720 to face, he sends her a letter, which to me 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:40.480 is like a low budget text. He sends her a 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:43.919