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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm great, Paul, how are you?

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Speaker 3: I am doing good? What's going on?

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Speaker 1: Have you done very much ancestry stuff? And I don't

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Speaker 1: mean Golden State killer genealogy stuff. I mean you Paul Holes.

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Speaker 1: Have you traced any ancestors using ancestry at all?

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Speaker 3: No? I definitely have.

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Speaker 1: Okay, did you find anything interesting?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: You know it's as you go back in time, the

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Speaker 2: family spreads out, if that makes any sense. My dad's

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Speaker 2: side of the family. You know, the Hole's surname. When

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Speaker 2: you go back several centuries. We actually came from England

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Speaker 2: and it wasn't holes, it was whole as in singular,

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Speaker 2: which was interesting to me because I worked with a

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Speaker 2: da by the name of Bob Hole and we always

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Speaker 2: just kind of chuckled because you never run across people

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Speaker 2: with the whole surname or whole surname, and good chance

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Speaker 2: Bob and I are probably related. Unfortunately he passed away

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Speaker 2: quite a few years ago now, but you know, going

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Speaker 2: back on my dad's mom's side, that's a very Germanic lineage.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: Also finding you know, a town in Germany where at

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Speaker 2: least the Wolf side of the family originated out of,

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Speaker 2: you know, so things like that. It's pretty cool to

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Speaker 2: get that kind of information about your your ancestors.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever uploaded your DNA or are you against that?

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Speaker 2: When I was trying to figure out how to do

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Speaker 2: the genealogy with a Golden State killer case, my parents

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Speaker 2: had actually tested themselves at Ancestry, and you can't upload

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Speaker 2: a profile from some other place into Ancestry. You have

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Speaker 2: to send your DNA to Ancestry to have it go

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Speaker 2: into Ancestry, but they allow you to download those profiles,

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Speaker 2: so I downloaded both my parents' profiles and put it

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Speaker 2: into a website called jedmatch, And jed match is the

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Speaker 2: one that you can upload profiles if you've been tested

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Speaker 2: at twenty three and meters or ancestry, et cetera. And

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Speaker 2: so I did that and of course got the you know,

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Speaker 2: the various distant relatives that share a percentage of their

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Speaker 2: DNA with my parents. And then ultimately I put my

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Speaker 2: DNA up there because I want to be able to

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Speaker 2: help cases, you know, And so I opted in so

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Speaker 2: law enforcement can use my DNA in case, you know,

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Speaker 2: somebody that's related to me is responsible for a crime.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm relieved you're not a hypocrite. First of all,

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Speaker 1: jet Match is the one that law enforcement are able

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Speaker 1: to use directly, Right do they have to get like

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Speaker 1: subpoenas or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: So you have two websites that law enforcement can use,

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Speaker 2: and that is jetmatch and Jetmatch. The users have to

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Speaker 2: explicitly opt in to allow law enforcement to search their profiles.

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Speaker 2: If they don't opt in, they can still utilize jet

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Speaker 2: Match for genealogy purposes, and their profiles are not searchable

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Speaker 2: for law enforcement. The other database law enforcement uses is

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Speaker 2: Family tree DNA, and that's something that is now being

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Speaker 2: managed by my employer author. The other websites like ancestry

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Speaker 2: and twenty three and meters do not permit law enforcement

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Speaker 2: to search their databases.

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Speaker 1: Got it, Well, this was all a big lead up

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Speaker 1: to a funny story. I think it's funny, at least

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Speaker 1: from the listener's last viewer. Her name's Ellen, and she

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Speaker 1: seems lovely. She emailed me very early, or I received

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Speaker 1: it very early, a couple of weeks ago, and it

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Speaker 1: was like a I searched ancestry. I'm trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out what happened to my I think it was her

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Speaker 1: great great grandfather. He came from Sweden, went to New

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Speaker 1: Orleans and then sort of vanished. And the family rumor,

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Speaker 1: and we know all about family rumors here, the family

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Speaker 1: rumor was that he was murdered and then tossed off

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Speaker 1: a doc in New Orleans. So I said, okay, let

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Speaker 1: me dig around because a lot of people, you know,

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Speaker 1: they'll look on ancestry and they'll do the general search.

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Speaker 1: But I subscribe to newspapers dot Com. Huge shout out

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Speaker 1: to newspapers dot com. Love him, love him, love him.

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Speaker 1: I've been using it. For I think probably about ten years.

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Speaker 1: So I just hopped on and this guy's first name

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Speaker 1: is Axel, and then there was a middle name and

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Speaker 1: then a last name that were way too complicated for

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Speaker 1: me to even pronounce here. So I looked nothing, nothing

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Speaker 1: from this guy with the first and named Axel middle

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Speaker 1: last name in newspapers dot com, which was really unusual

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Speaker 1: for me. I usually can dig up something. And then

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Speaker 1: she said, this is when he was born, and you

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Speaker 1: know all of this and this is where. So what

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Speaker 1: she knew from ancestry was where he was born in Sweden,

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Speaker 1: the year and the approximate birthday, and that was basically it.

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Speaker 1: She couldn't find immigration papers or anything like that. So

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Speaker 1: from my time writing American Sherlock, I was going crazy

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out why my forensic scientist Oscar Heinrich

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Speaker 1: couldn't stand his father. He was so mad at his father,

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't figure out what was happening. And about

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Speaker 1: two weeks before my deadline to send American Sherlock to

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Speaker 1: my editor, I was futson around at three in the

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Speaker 1: morning like I do sometimes, and I misspelled his father's

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Speaker 1: name in newspapers dot com and up pops all this information.

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Speaker 1: His father took his own life because of the family finances.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I mean all of this, just because

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Speaker 1: they spelled his last name wrong. So I misspelled this

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Speaker 1: guy Axel's middle name, and up pops a treasure trove

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Speaker 1: of information. Most importantly, the first thing I saw was

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Speaker 1: a prison photo of this guy. Oh really, I know,

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Speaker 1: you said. You think that he came to America in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen or maybe before. He was in prison in

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Speaker 1: Sweden in nineteen fourteen. I don't know why, but it

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Speaker 1: was a you know, very menacing photo. When I sent

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Speaker 1: it to her, and because of the last it was

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Speaker 1: literally one letter. It was the letter R that I changed.

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Speaker 1: She was able to trace everything. And she said, I

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Speaker 1: don't think he was tossed off a dog. I think

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Speaker 1: he died at sea because he served in the I

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Speaker 1: think she said the Navy, maybe, so all of it.

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Speaker 1: It was one letter that changed all of this and

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Speaker 1: sort of I think she was able to put together

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Speaker 1: some pieces about this part of the family, and the

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Speaker 1: family still talks about this, and this happened in you know,

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifteen, nineteen sixteen. So when I say it's important,

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Speaker 1: the work we do is important to people. Even though

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Speaker 1: this is generations back, the family's still talking about it

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Speaker 1: over Thanksgiving. They're talking about this guy. It has been

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Speaker 1: dead for more than one hundred years. So please to

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Speaker 1: the listeners. I don't do this for many people. I

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Speaker 1: think I was just bored this morning when I did it,

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Speaker 1: just like, okay, whatever, what the hell help is it?

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Speaker 1: But it was so funny to just see this prison photo.

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Speaker 1: She wasn't phased by that, but you know, I mean

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Speaker 1: that little bit. And I know you probably know this

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Speaker 1: from law enforcement too. Just you know, people when they're

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Speaker 1: using a different name, and man, you can be really stymied.

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Speaker 1: I was so frustrated. But then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: I get all of this information with just one letter,

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Speaker 1: which was crazy for me.

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Speaker 2: Well, and I've experienced that myself when I was, you know,

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Speaker 2: doing the genealogy and would rely on newspapers dot com

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Speaker 2: in order to flesh out family trees. And what what

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Speaker 2: I have found is, you know newspapers, you know, they

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Speaker 2: scan those old papers and then they optical character recognition

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Speaker 2: OCR and some letters or some fonts. It doesn't do

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Speaker 2: a good job. So I have run into the same

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Speaker 2: situation where now I'm trying different permutations of the spelling

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Speaker 2: of the name, and then we'll have success. And I

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Speaker 2: don't know if newspapers dot Com allows for wild card searching,

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Speaker 2: where you can put like the asterisk in for it

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Speaker 2: could be any letter at this location in the name.

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Speaker 2: If they don't do that, that is actually very helpful

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Speaker 2: because of this ocr problem that I've run across.

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Speaker 1: Well, it was a huge deal to me with American Sherlock,

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Speaker 1: because you know, it answered so many questions that were

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Speaker 1: important to me in the book. But I think for Ellen,

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Speaker 1: she was pleased to receive all less information. And I

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Speaker 1: knew something was wrong because everybody, even in the eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: everybody showed up in the newspaper one way or the other.

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Speaker 1: And I think I found his subsequent children or grandchildren

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Speaker 1: or something because that exact kind of name with a

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Speaker 1: different middle name was popping up. But anyway, I thought

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Speaker 1: that was a funny story, just about searching for family members.

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Speaker 1: And you know, if you thought that people complain about

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Speaker 1: the inaccuracy of newspapers, now you should try doing what

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Speaker 1: I do in reading eighteen hundreds newspapers. Man, I mean,

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Speaker 1: just the wildest names.

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Speaker 2: Every no for sure, you know, but it really just underscores,

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Speaker 2: you know, how technology is giving access to data that

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Speaker 2: before you'd have to go into a library and flip

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Speaker 2: through paper copies of newspapers if they even had, you know,

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Speaker 2: the addition that you needed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Mike Rafficha, I've done that many times too, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: so this was this was quite an experience. It was

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Speaker 1: another good reminder of just trying to stick with something,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of the perseverance. It wasn't my family,

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Speaker 1: but it was fun to do.

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Speaker 3: No, very cool.

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Speaker 1: Well, talk about media, we are getting rend to step

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Speaker 1: into a media circus here with the story that we're

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Speaker 1: going to do. It's going to be a two parter

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Speaker 1: because it's a pretty big story and it was a

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Speaker 1: really big deal when it happened. Where we're heading is

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Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, almost mid nineteen twenties England, which sounds

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Speaker 1: very romantic to me. It was not, I think at

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Speaker 1: this time period, certainly World War One. This story I

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Speaker 1: think really gets to the heart of relationships and trying

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Speaker 1: to sort out what happened to our victim, because it's

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Speaker 1: a big question mark for me right now.

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Speaker 3: All right, So England, that's one of your favorite.

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Speaker 1: Places it is, So get some tea and a crumpet

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Speaker 1: if you've ever had you had a crumpet before. I

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Speaker 1: love them, love them, No, I don't think, so I'll

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Speaker 1: make you some some time. Okay, let's set the scene. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Like I said, the case is in England and it's

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen twenties, and we have two main players

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Speaker 1: here and we have to sort out. This is a

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Speaker 1: I feel like the smallest cast of characters we might

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Speaker 1: have worked with here, but we'll see what you think.

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Speaker 1: And then a very very very very famous pathologist that

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Speaker 1: you'll recognize immediately because we've talked about them before. So

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Speaker 1: this is an intriguing case. So one of our main

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Speaker 1: people is named Norman Thorn, and in the nineteen twenties,

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Speaker 1: very early nineteen twenties, he meets a young woman named

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Speaker 1: Elsie Cameron and she's a typist. So Norman and Elsie

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Speaker 1: and they meet at church. They are now falling in love.

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Speaker 1: And Norman, just so we know about kind of ages

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Speaker 1: and stuff, Norman's about twenty and Elsie is about two

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Speaker 1: years older. So at this point, if you want to

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Speaker 1: go ahead and open up your photos, you can see

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Speaker 1: a photo of the two of them. I will say

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Speaker 1: I am struck by. I feel like they both look

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Speaker 1: a little older than twenty and twenty two.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm looking at I'm assuming this is this

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Speaker 2: is a Norman and Elsie.

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Speaker 3: Norman is seated, Elsie is standing.

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Speaker 2: It's just like a typical family, you know, portrait with

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Speaker 2: this couple.

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Speaker 3: Norm's got a three.

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Speaker 2: Piece suit on Elsie's you know, just got a dress.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I would not have expected that they were

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Speaker 2: as young as they are by looking at their photos.

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Speaker 3: They do look more mature.

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Speaker 2: But you know, that's what it seems like if you

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Speaker 2: ever look at like I look at my parents' yearbooks,

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Speaker 2: and everybody in there, even though they're.

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Speaker 3: High schoolers, look like they're in their thirties.

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Speaker 1: What do you think that was? Like just a hard

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Speaker 1: life or I.

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Speaker 3: Don't know, it seems consistent too, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. You know when we do these stories from

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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, and it's always when they're on a farm,

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Speaker 1: boy they look rough, and I know it's sun exposure

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Speaker 1: and just hard work and stuff. But I sort of

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Speaker 1: picked up on that they both look a little older

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Speaker 1: than what they are. But anyway, so we've got Norman

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Speaker 1: and we've got Elsie and they meet at church they

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Speaker 1: fall in love. So in nineteen twenty one, Norman is working.

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Speaker 1: He's either an engineer or kind of an electrician in

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Speaker 1: training one or the other. But he's he has a

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Speaker 1: good job, it sounds like. But he loses that job

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Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty one and no word on why, but

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Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like anything controversial. He loses this job

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Speaker 1: so he has to get back on his feet. So

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Speaker 1: his parents want to help him out. He's close with

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Speaker 1: his parents and they give him some land in an

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Speaker 1: area called crowbro which is in East Sussex, and this

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Speaker 1: is about a train ride away from London. He is

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Speaker 1: not particularly close physically to Elsie. She's staying with her parents.

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Speaker 1: She's also remember quite young, but they're able to see

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Speaker 1: each other. So this guy who had gone from being

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Speaker 1: an engineer or an electrician now starts his life over

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Speaker 1: as a chicken farmer, which seems pretty different. Yes, So

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Speaker 1: he is living in a tiny hut on the property.

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Speaker 1: It is eighty five square feet. Oh wow, my cottage

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Speaker 1: is I think about one seventy five square feet, so

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Speaker 1: you know he's living in half the space of where

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Speaker 1: I am right now, which is very small. I was

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Speaker 1: going to ask you this. You know, I lived in

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Speaker 1: a very small space when I lived in New York.

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Speaker 1: I was in the Greenwich Village. I was, you know,

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Speaker 1: literally right on where NYU is, and my bathroom was

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Speaker 1: so small, was literally in a closet. My bathroom was

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Speaker 1: so small that you could pee and brush your teeth

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Speaker 1: at the same time because the sink was right there.

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Speaker 1: That's probably Tami. And then our kitchen was also in

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Speaker 1: a closet, and you could have your foot on the

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Speaker 1: bathtub actually in the bathtub, all at the same time

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Speaker 1: if you needed to. So have you lived in a

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Speaker 1: small space before?

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Speaker 3: You know, the.

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Speaker 2: Smallest space was when I was living in It's actually

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Speaker 2: a relatively upscale town called Wamut Creek in the East Bay.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I love Walnut Creek.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an amazing town. And I rented a small

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Speaker 2: studio which it did have a small kitchen. It had

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Speaker 2: just a single room that doubled as the bedroom and

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Speaker 2: then a small bathroom. Now I couldn't pee and brush

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Speaker 2: my teeth in this bathroom, nor would I want to

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Speaker 2: try to do that.

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Speaker 1: But I never tried. Paul I'm just saying that that's

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Speaker 1: how small it was.

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Speaker 2: So that's probably in terms of me individually, that's probably

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Speaker 2: the smallest space that I've personally lived in.

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Speaker 1: Norman's in a very small space, so eighty five square feet,

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Speaker 1: and I've been calling it a cottage. I don't think

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Speaker 1: it is. They're calling it the hut. He's not making

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Speaker 1: very much money as a chicken farmer. It doesn't sound

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Speaker 1: like he had that much experience to begin with, but

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Speaker 1: he's making a go of it because I don't think

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Speaker 1: he feels like he has much of a choice. Why

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Speaker 1: don't I show you what the farm looks like. So

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Speaker 1: if you scroll down past that photo of Norman and Elsie,

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Speaker 1: you'll see the farm on the second page, and you'll

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Speaker 1: see the hut. I think that's the hut. Tell me

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Speaker 1: what you see?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, So this is a photo.

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Speaker 2: It looks like it's taken from the perspective of a

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Speaker 2: road and possibly just a dirt road, and then there's

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Speaker 2: a gate that in essence is in between the road

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Speaker 2: and where the structures are, and behind this gate appears

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Speaker 2: to be just a drive area that goes back to

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Speaker 2: where now I see, I mean, it looks like a

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Speaker 2: log cabin, you know, from this photo, it's it's not

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Speaker 2: more much more than that, Yeah, you know, surrounded by

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Speaker 2: some land and some equipment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it looks and you see the chicken

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Speaker 1: coops kind of around. It looks like there might be

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Speaker 1: one attached to the cabin thing.

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Speaker 3: What do you think I can see that? Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: think that's right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is pretty small. So, you know, this seems

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Speaker 1: like a big difference, lifestyle difference for Norman. But like

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Speaker 1: I said, he's making a go of it. He and

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Speaker 1: Elsie are still together and actually a year after they

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Speaker 1: sort of you know, separate, physically separate, they get engaged

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Speaker 1: by nineteen twenty two. But it seems like this distance

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Speaker 1: is sort of getting to Norman and he is starting

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Speaker 1: to cool on the relationship by you know, shortly after

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Speaker 1: when they get engaged. So I think Elsie is feeling

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Speaker 1: like there's a growing disconnect between the two of them,

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Speaker 1: and it sounds like Elsie was really in love with him,

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Speaker 1: but Norman was keeping his distance alone a little bit

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Speaker 1: to keep the relationship alive. Elsie takes the train to

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Speaker 1: visit Norman much more often than he goes to visit her,

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Speaker 1: so November of nineteen twenty four. I mean, remember that

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Speaker 1: this has been a year and a half that she's

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Speaker 1: been trying to keep this relationship going because she really

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Speaker 1: loves him and they're both, you know, part of a church.

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Speaker 1: It sounded like actually that they were both Sunday school

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Speaker 1: teachers at one point, so having a relationship with him

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Speaker 1: and getting married is really important to her. In November

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Speaker 1: of nineteen twenty four, Elsie writes to Norman that she's pregnant.

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Speaker 1: So the way this would have gone in quote unquote

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Speaker 1: proper society in this time period is they would not

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Speaker 1: have had sex. Then he asked her to marry him,

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Speaker 1: and then quite possibly she said okay, because you're committing

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Speaker 1: to me. So that's how I think we get around

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Speaker 1: the whole idea that you know, she seemed devout, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe a devout Christian. But then then, of course, this

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Speaker 1: is where we've talked about the Heartbahm lawsuits that come

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Speaker 1: out when a man says, marry me, and then they

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Speaker 1: have sex and then he's tired of her, and then

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Speaker 1: he leaves and she's sort of quote unquote ruined. So

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Speaker 1: she says that she's pregnant. I mean, I don't know

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Speaker 1: how many times I can say this that the number

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Speaker 1: one reason pregnant women die is murder and postpartum also,

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Speaker 1: so you know already, even though I haven't told you

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Speaker 1: who the victim is, we have somebody who is at risk.

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Speaker 1: He's distanced himself from her, and now he believes she's pregnant.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think so far?

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Speaker 3: Well, do you know how far along she is in

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Speaker 3: the pregnancy?

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Speaker 1: She does not tell him, but it doesn't sound like

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Speaker 1: her parents know. And I would assume that she, you know,

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Speaker 1: noticed that she wasn't getting her period anymore, and that

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Speaker 1: was the conclusion. I don't hear anything about a doctor,

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Speaker 1: her going to a doctor, and you know, confirming it

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Speaker 1: that way. So she's making some assumptions. It doesn't sound

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Speaker 1: like very far along though.

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Speaker 2: I guess, you know, some of the questions that I

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Speaker 2: pop into my mind because I know this is going

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Speaker 2: to end tragically for Elsie in all likelihood. You know,

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Speaker 2: if she's indicating to Norman that she's pregnant, does he

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Speaker 2: have concern that the child is not his? Which from

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Speaker 2: a victimology standpoint, doesn't sound like Elsie would necessarily be

371
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Speaker 2: having sex with some other man. You know, so that's

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Speaker 2: probably a little bit unlikely. But does Norman feel that,

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Speaker 2: you know, as he's growing more and more distance in

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Speaker 2: the relationship, is Elsie using the pregnancy sort of to

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Speaker 2: trap him?

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Speaker 3: You know?

377
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Speaker 2: So if Elsie ultimately ends up murdered, then of course

378
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Speaker 2: there's some concern about what Norman's motive may be based

379
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,200
Speaker 2: off of his stance in this relationship and how he's

380
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Speaker 2: feeling about Elsie.

381
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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and you know, when you were saying if Norman's

382
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Speaker 1: concerned about her sleeping with somebody else, I get the

383
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Speaker 1: impression that he is ready to cut ties with Elsie.

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Speaker 1: He probably would have been happy if she had been

385
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Speaker 1: with somebody else. But I also don't know the egos

386
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Speaker 1: of men in the nineteen twenties. But I think you're

387
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Speaker 1: right kind of based on her in general. Like that

388
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 1: photo that I showed you look almost like a church photo,

389
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Speaker 1: like somebody took it posing outside of the church. I'm

390
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,680
Speaker 1: not seeing Elsie sleeping around, but you're right, who knows.

391
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Speaker 1: So she is freaking out when she finds out she's pregnant.

392
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Speaker 1: She says to Norman, I want to get married as

393
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Speaker 1: soon as possible, which, of course makes sense because this

394
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Speaker 1: would not be a good thing socially for her, and

395
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Speaker 1: I'm assuming her parents would not approve of this, and

396
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,520
Speaker 1: she lives with them. But Norman is characteristically of Norman,

397
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Speaker 1: very wishy washy with her, and he says that I've

398
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Speaker 1: got some news for you. Instead of saying this face

399
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Speaker 1: to face, he sends her a letter, which to me

400
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,480
Speaker 1: is like a low budget text. He sends her a

401
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,919
Speaker 1: letter that says, I know you say you're pregnant, but

402
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 1: I'm seeing another woman and her name is Elizabeth Caldecott.

403
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 1: He says, Elizabeth thinks I am to marry her, and

404
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,240
Speaker 1: I have a strong feeling for her. So now what's happening?

405
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Speaker 1: What do you think?

406
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Speaker 2: Well, now you see where Norman is probably feeling even more.

407
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 2: I guess the term is trapped in terms of he's

408
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 2: developed feelings for Elizabeth. He's probably excited about that relationship.

409
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,360
Speaker 2: And then Elsie pops up and is like, oh, I'm

410
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Speaker 2: pregnant and he's seeing, you know, sort of the complication

411
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Speaker 2: in his life.

412
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Speaker 3: So now how does Norman respond?

413
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Speaker 2: You know, he is, I guess in some ways, you know,

414
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 2: even though it's an indirect method using the letter, but

415
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,159
Speaker 2: he's being upfront. But it's also possibly Norman's way of

416
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 2: just trying to push Elsie away, you know, hoping that well,

417
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Speaker 2: she'll just go away on herself, you know, by herself,

418
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Speaker 2: and he can, you know, continue to pursue the relationship.

419
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Speaker 1: With Elizabeth m And in some ways this made me

420
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Speaker 1: think that Norman is as good a chance of being

421
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Speaker 1: a victim as Elsie is, because this would have put her,

422
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Speaker 1: that news would have put her in a pretty desperate situation.

423
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Speaker 1: You know, not only has she had premarital sex with

424
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Speaker 1: this man, who it sounds like is breaking all the engagement,

425
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:06,160
Speaker 1: but being pregnant, she could have terminated the pregnancy many times.

426
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 1: That was dangerous and this is probably not something Elsie

427
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 1: would have done. Anyway, She's living with her parents, and

428
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 1: Norman is not near his parents. He is on his

429
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 1: own island as a chicken farmer, and I think Elizabeth

430
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,640
Speaker 1: is close by. And you'll see why in a little bit.

431
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 1: So he has a woman right here versus Elsie who

432
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Speaker 1: lives a long train ride away, and now she's saying,

433
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Speaker 1: I'm pregnant and at age somewhere between twenty and twenty two.

434
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Speaker 1: Even though men in that time period, many of them

435
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 1: did take responsibility. I mean, they understood this is you know,

436
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,680
Speaker 1: now I'm going to get married and this is kind

437
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 1: of what society expects of me. Of course, an equal

438
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: amount were deadbeat dads. So I don't know where Norman

439
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 1: stands right now, but Elsie seems to be really getting

440
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: upset over all of this.

441
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, in some ways, I think I made

442
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 2: an assumption that Elsie was going to be the victim.

443
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 2: You know, right now, with the details that you've told

444
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 2: in the story, you could see where Elsie would be

445
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: jealous of Elizabeth, you know, and Elsie could strike out

446
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 2: either at you know, Elizabeth, or could strike out at Norman. Yeah,

447
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 2: I could see it going either direction. And then you

448
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: got Elizabeth Elizabeth. You know, Norman's telling Elizabeth, hey, Elsie

449
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: is pregnant, and Elizabeth is seeing that jeopardizing her relationship

450
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 2: with Norman.

451
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 3: So could Elizabeth go and take Elsie out? Yeah?

452
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 2: So you know, right now we have classic triangle going on,

453
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 2: lover's triangle, and you know, each point of the triangles

454
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 2: are the individuals, and I can't tell you right now

455
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 2: who ends up being the victim, So this will be interesting.

456
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and remember this is Elsie is not nine months pregnant.

457
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 1: She is, you know, maybe a month or two pregnant.

458
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: I'm assuming she came up with this conclusion again because

459
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 1: she missed a period or two. So you know, she's

460
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 1: perfectly capable of doing anything physical. And we know women

461
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 1: can be just as murderous as men. So we'll see.

462
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: We have an outside observer who I think is very interesting.

463
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: I could do a whole episode on this woman. Her

464
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: name was Helena Normanton and she was the very first

465
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: female barrister in the United Kingdom. And a barrister, I mean, well,

466
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 1: do you know the difference between like a lawyer and

467
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: a barrister and any other category?

468
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 3: Probably not to look at it, that would be a

469
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 3: Wikipedia search for me.

470
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: So a barrister my understanding, and certainly when I lived

471
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: in London, I asked this question quite a lot too,

472
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: because I was trying to make sure I understood. A

473
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: barrister doesn't have as much contact with clients necessarily they

474
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 1: are a trial attorney, litigator. So very very famous woman,

475
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: so she picked up on cases that she wasn't involved

476
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: when she didn't represent anybody in this case, but she

477
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: was really interested in it because of Elsie. I think.

478
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 1: Helena said that it appeared from everything that she was

479
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: reading and studying that Elsie really seemed to be struggling

480
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: with mental health issues. So this is what she said,

481
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,199
Speaker 1: and you can tell me what you think, because you know,

482
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: we are considering Elsie to be an offender, not necessarily

483
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: a victim. So Helena said between January and June of

484
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty three. So this is a year before she

485
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: says she's getting pregnant, right, because that was November of

486
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty four, she said. The year before Elsie was

487
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: under continuous medical treatment for I'm going to butcher this

488
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 1: ner asthenia. Have you heard of that before?

489
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 3: No, that's not ringing a bill at all.

490
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: A condition characterized by chronic fatigue, weakness, and other symptoms.

491
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: And this was a very nineteenth century term. So you know, irritability.

492
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 1: If she were pregnant, I'd say, well, welcome to my world.

493
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 1: I had a really hard pregnancy. But they said that

494
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: she had this sort of this listlessness, irritability, depression, loss

495
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 1: of energy, lack of self confidence, and failure in concentration.

496
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: Does any of that line up to you about either

497
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: as victimology, as Elsie as a victim or as a

498
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 1: potential offender in this case, well, at least.

499
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: With the symptoms that Elsie is being described as having.

500
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 2: You know, it sounds like she's depressed. There's definitely nothing

501
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 2: that's really alarming me at this point, like there's a

502
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 2: psychosis going on. You know, she starting to trend towards

503
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 2: maybe a form of schizophrenia. You know, at her age,

504
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 2: you know, she's twenty two. You know, she could be

505
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 2: on the front of maybe some developing mental health issue.

506
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 2: But I'm not sure with those particular symptoms that it's

507
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 2: really diagnostic as to something that would contribute to her

508
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 2: striking out, you know, And this is it's kind of

509
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 2: a it's almost the opposite, you know, but yeah, let's

510
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 2: let's see how this develops.

511
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is the time period this January to

512
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 1: June is a time period of when you know, Norman

513
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: is on the chicken farm. At this point, they're not together,

514
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: and she's traveling back and forth to see him, and

515
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: he's creating some distance. So if she had something already

516
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: happening chemically, this would have made it worse. You know,

517
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: she's invested in this guy. This is probably her first boyfriend,

518
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: maybe her first relationship, and you know, now he's you know,

519
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: putting his arm out to her. So she gets this news.

520
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 1: So remember this is November of nineteen twenty four when

521
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: she says, I'm pregnant and he writes back, and he says, well,

522
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: this is you know, the issue. I'm with Elizabeth and

523
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: I'm really interested in her. This is what Elsie says.

524
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: This is her reply. She writes in a letter. This

525
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: is quote. You have absolutely broken my heart. I never

526
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: thought you were capable of such deception. Your duty is

527
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: to marry me. I have first claim on you. I

528
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 1: expect you to marry me as soon as possible. My

529
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: baby must have a name and another thing. I love

530
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: you in spite of all. That's a lot of demands,

531
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 1: don't you think it.

532
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 3: Is a lot of demands.

533
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: But it's also I think from this timeframe, this is

534
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 2: what would be expected, you know.

535
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 3: And Enorma has got to.

536
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 2: Know this, you know, he's out there in his hut

537
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 2: and he's you know, got this relationship with Elizabeth. As

538
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,479
Speaker 2: soon as he finds out that Elsie is pregnant, he knows, Okay,

539
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 2: there's a level of expectation of commitment to Elsie and

540
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 2: his child. That's probably going to jeopardize the relationship with

541
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 2: Elizabeth moving forward.

542
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I wonder. I'm assuming he's not telling

543
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: Elizabeth any of this stuff. I think in at least

544
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: some cases now the man might disclose this and say

545
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: these days and say this is what's happening. We can't

546
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: believe this woman. It's probably not my child, you know.

547
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: But he, I'm assuming kept his mouth shut to Elizabeth.

548
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: We don't end up hearing from Elizabeth regarding any of

549
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: this stuff.

550
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 3: So well, this is definitely an no shit moment for Norman.

551
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, big time. And she's not here, you know,

552
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: for him to gauge. So she sends this letter and

553
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like he has time to respond, because

554
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: then she sends another letter in early December of nineteen

555
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: twenty four, and she says to him, talk about an

556
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: no shit moment. I'm coming December sixth. We're going to

557
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: hash this out in person. Again. He has no time

558
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: to respond or any way to get a hold of her, really,

559
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: and I'm assuming he does not have a phone, otherwise,

560
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: you know, she would have been calling him. So this

561
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: is all snail mail. She says, I'll be there December sixth.

562
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: Here's the issue also with Norman. She actually comes a

563
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: day early, so she packs up a suitcase which includes

564
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: infant sized dresses, and sets out for the chicken farm

565
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: to find him in his hut and to basically say,

566
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: we are doing this. You have done this to me,

567
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: and now you have a responsibility to fulfill.

568
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting that she writes that she'll be out

569
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: there December sixth and comes a day early. You know,

570
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: it was that a planned thing on her part, possibly

571
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 2: to have that arrival be unexpected to better assess or

572
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: even catch Norman doing things that she would be upset about.

573
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: And I had wondered why number one she even gave

574
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: him a warning, and number two if she was afraid

575
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: that he was going to jet you know, and his

576
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: hut will be empty when she shows up and she's

577
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: trying to catch him. But I think that shows her

578
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: level of desperation. I don't think she's told her parents

579
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: that she's pregnant. They do know that she's going to

580
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: visit him. This has been a common thing for the

581
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: past year and a half or however long it was.

582
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: So she says to her parents, I'm leaving, I'm going

583
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: to go visit him. I don't think she's disclosed anything

584
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: about Elizabeth to them. She certainly has not said I

585
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: think he's calling off this, And so everybody's hiding stuff

586
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: from different people, which doesn't surprise me now or in

587
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, but it makes this case a little

588
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: bit more complicated coming up. So now, who are you

589
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: thinking as far as offender victim knowing the situation here,

590
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: because they're both in bad situations right.

591
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 3: Now, you know, right now, I think it could go

592
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 3: either way.

593
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 2: But Elizabeth is definitely taking a more aggressive approach to

594
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 2: the relationship.

595
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 3: But she also has the bigger burden.

596
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, she's pregnant, She has the future to

597
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: think about, and Norman is in many ways trying to

598
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 2: move away from Elsie, you know, So she's coming out

599
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: right now. All that does is it puts Norman and

600
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: Elsie and Elizabeth at least within the same geography, and

601
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 2: so that's where I think it's going to be interesting

602
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: to see what happens.

603
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: So we don't know yet when she arrives how it went.

604
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: And what we do know is that Elsie's parents expect

605
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: that they are going to hear from her via a letter,

606
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: snail mail letter, but two days past after she's supposed

607
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: to be there and nothing back home. Yeah, they're in London,

608
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: so they don't hear anything from her, and they said,

609
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: this is incredibly unusual. They live together and of course

610
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: they're very close, so they got this must have been awful, Paul.

611
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: It's all telegraphs and snail mail.

612
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 3: Sure.

613
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 2: I'm kind of curious as to why they didn't go

614
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 2: out to where Norman.

615
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 3: Was that just to see or where's our daughter?

616
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: I had wondered. I don't think propriety is the right word.

617
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: But they didn't want to panic anybody, and I don't

618
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: think they wanted to come to any conclusions. Maybe there

619
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: was a delay in the mail. I don't know. But

620
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: also I don't think they know about all of the

621
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: problems between Elsie and Norman. They are very aware, of course,

622
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: of oh the emotional turmoil that she's been going through.

623
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: So they decide to send Norman a telegraph asking if

624
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: Elsie is there. This is his response, and I don't

625
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: quite understand part of it. He says not here open

626
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: letters with a period at the end. Open letters, can't understand.

627
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: So I don't know if she has sent him letters.

628
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: He is saying, she sent me letters and I've opened them,

629
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: but it's all garble. I don't know what he's saying there,

630
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: but they seemed confused. Also, what do you think?

631
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very cryptic and Norman, you know, based off

632
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: of his you know, mechanical or electrical engineering job. I

633
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 2: mean he's, i'm assuming, fairly well educated and can articulate

634
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 2: and write well. So why is he being so cryptic

635
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 2: with that?

636
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 3: Yeah? I really don't have a guess right now.

637
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: Okay, well let's go through the timeline just real quick.

638
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: So Elsie was supposed to go on the sixth, according

639
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: to her letters, she went on the fifth, So three

640
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: days after she was last seen by her parents in

641
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: London getting on this train to go to the chicken farm,

642
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: they get two letters that show up and they're from

643
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: Norman and they're addressed to Elsie. So she was supposed

644
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: to be there on the sixth, She left on the fifth.

645
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: They call him on the seventh, the eighth, these letters

646
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: show up and he says in these letters to Elsie,

647
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: where did you get to yesterday? You did not turn up?

648
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 1: And they were written and sent after Elsie was slated

649
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,879
Speaker 1: to arrive at Norman's farm, which is concerned. Of course

650
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,399
Speaker 1: it's concerning. I mean, her parents are freaking out about this.

651
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:37,879
Speaker 3: All right. We still don't know.

652
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: You haven't told me anything about where Elsie is at

653
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 2: or what has happened to Elsie, you know. So it's

654
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: it's entirely possible that she never even made it to

655
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 2: Norman's place, right, But assuming that she did make it

656
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: to Norman's place and he has caused Elsie some harm,

657
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 2: these letters sound like he's staging. He is trying to

658
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,760
Speaker 2: make it look like she's left left, you know, the farm,

659
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: and she was supposed to meet up with them, and

660
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 2: she hasn't arrived, and now Norman is sending these letters.

661
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: It's almost like you know, grabbing the victim's phone or

662
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 2: and sending a text, you know, to make it seem

663
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 2: like they're still alive. Yeah, you know, it's just it's

664
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 2: a form of staging. But again, don't know what has

665
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 2: happened to Elsie, so I'll just kind of tuck that away.

666
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: I can't believe how many people have been caught with

667
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: the texting thing because they call a parent the wrong name,

668
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,919
Speaker 1: or they misspelled I mean, I just think I don't

669
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: want to give people hints, But why would you not

670
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: go back and at least read the way all of

671
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: these people were addressed, the way they spelled their names,

672
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: like copy their style at least. But I feel like

673
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: I've read about five or six different cases where the

674
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: offender just sort of winged it, and it seems like

675
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: a bad idea if you're trying to set up a murderer.

676
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course the people who are familiar with,

677
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 2: let's say the victim, they're going that does not sound

678
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 2: like our daughter or our son or whatever.

679
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,760
Speaker 1: So Elsie's parents, of course, are incredibly suspicious and very nervous.

680
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: They report her missing to the police, but the police

681
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: out there, not the London police, because they believe that

682
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: she's out there. I believe the police don't act with

683
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: very much urgency at all. I don't know why. I

684
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: think it's because when they talk to Norman, he says

685
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: she was crazy, she was mentally unstable. Talk to her parents.

686
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: She's been having problems for a very long time. He

687
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,959
Speaker 1: has no idea what happened to her. She never showed

688
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: up when she was supposed to, and the police seemed

689
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: to generally accept this. So you know, what do you

690
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: think about that? I know the police have to make

691
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: judgment calls all the time. That's why I'm not a

692
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: police officer. That would scare me. I mean, you are

693
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: making judgment calls all the time that put people's lives

694
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,919
Speaker 1: at risks, save their lives, all of that, and they

695
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: have decided in this case to believe this man who

696
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: said my fiance was having a really hard time. She

697
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: was supposed to show up. She never did. I don't

698
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: know where she is. You can look at if you want,

699
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: and they believed him.

700
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think with the facts upfront that

701
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: law enforcement would have been assessing you are dealing with

702
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 2: an adult.

703
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 3: With Elsie.

704
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 2: She has freedom of movement, she doesn't have to show

705
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 2: up at any particular location, and there's nothing about the

706
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 2: circumstances that would suggest that she's endangered outside of her

707
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: parents were expecting to be back home by a certain

708
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 2: day and she doesn't arrive. And maybe the only thing

709
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 2: that might be of concern are the letters from Norman

710
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: where he's writing to Elsie saying where are you?

711
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 3: Where were you?

712
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: You know, So now you have both the parents of

713
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 2: Norman saying this Elsie has disappeared. Yeah, but again, she's

714
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 2: twenty two years old or older.

715
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 3: At this point, she's in her mid twenties.

716
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 2: You know, she could have just decided to go somewhere

717
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 2: and cool down after finding out that Norman is having

718
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 2: a relationship with this Elizabeth.

719
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, pulled herself together to figure out what she was

720
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 1: going to do. If she actually doesn't show up, then

721
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: his letters make sense. He's saying, you were supposed to

722
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: be here on the sixth. I don't know where you are,

723
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: and the only place he can send them to is London,

724
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: her parents' house. So let's continue on. The police know

725
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: about this, and they still don't act. There are two

726
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: gardeners who see an unfamiliar woman in Crowbro, which is

727
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: apparently a small village or a small town. She is

728
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: carrying a suitcase in the town, not on his farm,

729
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: but in the town. She's carrying a suitcase that her

730
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 1: parents say matches the description of Elsie's own suitcase. This

731
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 1: is on December fifth, when she's supposed to be there.

732
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 1: If this is Elsie, this puts her in the town,

733
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: not at the farm yet, but in the town, So

734
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: that gives us a little bit more information. Nobody killed

735
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: her on the train.

736
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 2: Apparently, Okay, because earlier you said that Elsie arrived a

737
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 2: day earlier. Is that's why they know she was there

738
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,439
Speaker 2: on December fifth versus the sixth? Mm hmm.

739
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: Her parents knew that she was leaving on the fifth, Okay,

740
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, so they were the last ones to

741
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: see her. So now we've got her in the town.

742
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: And you know, you and I talk about this the

743
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: timeline and where people are, and you often ask me,

744
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: especially when we're dealing with trains and trolleys and you know,

745
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: passenger cars and stuff like that, did people see them

746
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,399
Speaker 1: on the train? Where did we last see or did

747
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: she step off the train? And did we have a

748
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: witness that's our at the train station. So if we

749
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: believe this, and this would have been I would think legitimate.

750
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: If this is a small village or a small town,

751
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 1: she probably would have stood out, especially if she's carrying

752
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: a suitcase. If this is Elsie, she's in the town

753
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: now where Norman is.

754
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 3: I have no reason to doubt these witnesses.

755
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: Police still don't act on this. Make me understand why

756
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: they wouldn't act on this? Is it yet? Again? You know,

757
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: maybe she showed up Norman wasn't home, changed her mind

758
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: and you know, went off on walk about somewhere or what.

759
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there wasn't anything that these witnesses saw

760
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 2: that's concerning.

761
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, well she's in town with a suitcase.

762
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so it doesn't change anything from law enforcements perspective.

763
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 2: It's just said, Okay, well she arrived, yeah, you know,

764
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 2: and where is she? Well, she could have left the town.

765
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 2: She could have found, you know, some other place.

766
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 3: To hold up in.

767
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: And I think reasonable doubt here will be sort of

768
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: my mindset moving forward. We're looking for reasonable doubt in

769
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 1: this case. So a few weeks later, her poor parents,

770
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,760
Speaker 1: they are not getting any information. Four weeks the police

771
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: get a tip. It's from one of Norman's neighbors, you know,

772
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 1: on one side or the other of the chicken farm.

773
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: They say that they have seen a young woman with

774
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: a suitcase walking onto his chicken farm on December fifth.

775
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: Who knows why the neighbor took so long. I mean,

776
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think it was anything nefarious. I

777
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 1: think people don't want to get involved sometimes with this story.

778
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: Maybe they hadn't heard about it yet.

779
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 2: Who knows, Yeah, you know, but that's it's several weeks later.

780
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 2: I mean, with a small town, you know, the rumor

781
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: mill is going to be going rampant, you know, So

782
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 2: is this just somebody who's decided and you know, they

783
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: may just be trying to be helpful, but how accurate

784
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 2: is this bit of information? Are they just inserting themselves

785
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 2: into the investigation because we know those types of people exist,

786
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 2: So it's kind of hard to really to truly assess

787
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: the veracity of information just based off of the statements.

788
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 2: It's like, Okay, where's the witness saying that they what

789
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 2: was their visual perspective of this woman on the suitcase?

790
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: You know, is this something that they're able to describe

791
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 2: aspects about this woman, her dress, the details about the suitcase.

792
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 2: That really kind of enhances the likelihood that these witnesses

793
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 2: actually saw Elsie and is placing Elsie on Norman's property.

794
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: And nobody's saying she's in distress or anything like that.

795
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: So it seems very matter of fact. The police are

796
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: finally alarmed. I think her parents are staying on top

797
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: of them about this and saying this is unusual. He

798
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: told us she never showed up. Now you have a

799
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: witness who says, she's on this farm. They go to

800
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: normal and they say, let's clear this all up. Let us

801
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: search the farm, the chicken farm. He says. Okay. When

802
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: they're looking, they find and they don't tell me if

803
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: it's buried or not, but they find a tin with

804
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 1: Elsie's jewelry and watch inside. Okay, and that's bad news.

805
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: Her parents later confirmed that she was wearing these pieces

806
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: of jewelry and this watch when she left London to

807
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: go to the chicken farm. So that's bad news already.

808
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: It's on the property.

809
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this tin, is this something that Elsie took

810
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 2: with her that she would naturally put her jewelry in,

811
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 2: like when she's going to go to bed or is

812
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 2: this Norman's tin? And you know, now, for whatever reason,

813
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: Elsie has been relieved of her jewelry. And of course

814
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 2: it'd be very interesting to know exactly where this tin

815
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: was located at was it secreted away, because that would

816
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 2: be a harbinger of really bad news.

817
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know that. I think the ten is his,

818
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: but I don't know where it was. But in a second,

819
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,439
Speaker 1: it's not going to matter. Sorry to tell you that

820
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: they keep searching. They're most excited about an area on

821
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: the potato patch that appears to have been freshly dug up,

822
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: and they dig up Elsie's suitcase. So now we have

823
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: confirmation the jewelry and the suitcase. Before you ask about

824
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 1: the suitcase, look at the photos. Look at those two

825
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 1: photos that I sent you. It just shows an overwhelming

826
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 1: amount of material that they had to dig through. This

827
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: is not a small farm.

828
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 2: So the next photo after the photo from the road

829
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: is I'm seeing a photo where there's three men. You know,

830
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 2: they're dressed in very heavy looking trench coats.

831
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 1: It looks foggy to me.

832
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's foggy, and it's cool. It looks like it's

833
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 2: probably very very cool temperatures. It looks like the land

834
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 2: where these men are at. I can't quite tell in

835
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 2: the photo if it's been dug up or overturned, but

836
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: I'm assuming this is probably the maybe the potato patch area.

837
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 2: There's also brushes and trees in the backdrop, you know,

838
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 2: but this isn't you know, anytime you're doing a search outdoors,

839
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: even if you have let's say a small yard surrounded

840
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 2: by a fence, it's a lot of work unless there's

841
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 2: something really obvious and of course the larger the property gets,

842
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 2: you know, you hope for something like freshly turned over

843
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 2: dirt or disturbances in the botanical material, so you go, Okay,

844
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 2: there's a spot that I want to key in on.

845
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: But because of these outdoor type scenes, this is why

846
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 2: we've tried to utilize different technologies to focus our efforts,

847
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 2: like ground penetrating radar or having the dogs get out

848
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 2: there and have them alert on whatever they're trained to

849
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 2: alert on, such as decomp dogs. Because it is I've

850
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: been involved in multiple searches, most notably Phil Gurrito's property,

851
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: who was the abductor of jaz Do Guard and he

852
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,399
Speaker 2: had two acres of basically a junk yard and we

853
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 2: were trying to find evidence of other victims or evidence

854
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 2: associated with the crimes against Jace and it took what

855
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 2: I was out there for several weeks with multiple different agencies.

856
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: Well, the first book that I wrote, which was about

857
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 1: the London smog of nineteen fifty two and a serial killer,

858
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 1: John Reginald Christy, to me illustrated that he had a

859
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: very small backyard and he had a place in London.

860
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: He buried two women there and it was totally junked out.

861
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: He had garden and stuff, but there were tools everywhere.

862
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: The weeds were really high, and the police were not

863
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: searching for buried women. They were searching for a mother

864
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: and her baby. And they went straight to kind of

865
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: an outdoor lavatory, and so, you know, they did not

866
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: know that there were women buried under the ground. They

867
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: were looking specifically in this laboratory, which is where they

868
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: found the mother and the child dead. What they did

869
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: not see, which I think people thought at the time

870
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: was just inexplicable, was Christie's dog had dug up a

871
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: femur bone of one of the women a couple of

872
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: years earlier. His fence was falling down. He strapped the

873
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: femur bone to the fence to hold up the fence,

874
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: and they walked right past it. And people criticized for him.

875
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: You know, I call it Keystone cops sometimes, But then

876
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 1: when you look at photos it is so trashed. I

877
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: totally understand how they missed a bone, you know, that

878
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: is holding up part of the fence. I mean, forget

879
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: about the psychology behind Christy doing something like that to

880
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: begin with, but I think people think it must be

881
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: easy to do his search from a small backyard. But

882
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: depending on the circumstances and what you're looking for, it

883
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 1: can be a big challenge.

884
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's it's what your eyes can see. I

885
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 2: have photos of whole bodies that are on the surface,

886
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 2: and most people would never be able to pick the

887
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,399
Speaker 2: bodies because of the other debris, you know, the branches

888
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 2: and the vegetation, you know. And in this case, like

889
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 2: with Christy with this sphemur, I mean, how many people

890
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: I've run across, like in law enforcement, that do not

891
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 2: know human anatomy. You know, they may not even recognize

892
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 2: that they're dealing with a bone, let alone, you know,

893
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,399
Speaker 2: a significant bone out of a person's leg.

894
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 3: So it is it's always a challenge.

895
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: And that's where again, you know, here law enforcement is

896
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 2: they've got a suitcase, They've got a tin full of

897
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:31,280
Speaker 2: Elsie's jewelry.

898
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 3: Now it's where is Elsie? Yep?

899
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: So the suitcase is buried, nothing inside the ten has

900
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: the jewelry in it. Not long after, in a totally

901
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: different part of the farm, these cops, Boy, this was

902
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: a lot of work. They discover a human Torso there's

903
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 1: a lot of decomposition happening. Because remember this has been

904
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: two or three weeks since she went missing. They waited

905
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: a long time with the neighbor's tip and everything, and

906
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: now did you giz up? They say to Norman, you've

907
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 1: got a human torso buried. We believe it's Elsie. And

908
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: he says, okay, I'll tell you where her other parts are,

909
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 1: so he takes her to other spots on the property.

910
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 1: They find her severed arms and legs, as well as

911
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: her head. This is where Norman's story becomes very interesting.

912
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: He readily admits that he dismembered her and buried her

913
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 1: and covered all the stuff up, but he says, I'm

914
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: not the one who did it. And now I'm going

915
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 1: to have to leave you hanging for part two. This

916
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: I told you, this chicken farm, this chicken farm, and

917
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: this poor woman, this poor young woman, you know. And

918
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: now we will in the second part talk a lot

919
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: about medical stuff because now we have to determine exactly

920
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: what happened to.

921
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 2: Elsie, and depending on the state of her body, it

922
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 2: can be very difficult.

923
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 1: Yep, okay, I will see you next week.

924
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 3: Sounds good.

925
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

926
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia Dot com

927
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

928
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

929
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

930
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

931
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

932
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

933
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hart Stark and Danielle Kramer.

934
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

935
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:34,240
Speaker 1: Baried Bones Pod.

936
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,240
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

937
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

938
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

939
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,919
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

940
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now