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Speaker 1: It's April twenty fourteen, and hundreds of protesters are gathered

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Speaker 1: near a dusty Nevada overpass about eighty miles northeast of

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Speaker 1: Las Vegas. Some wave American flags from their saddles. Others

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Speaker 1: the yellow don't tread on any flag. It's like a

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Speaker 1: scene out of High Noon.

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Speaker 2: Cowboy hats, cowboy boots, jeans, shirts on the back of forces.

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Speaker 1: Michael Serich is working for the Bureau of Land Management

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Speaker 1: at the time, very agency. These protesters have come to

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Speaker 1: stare down. By the afternoon singing turns into something more serious.

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Speaker 1: A man in a black ball cap in tactical vest

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Speaker 1: is belly flat on the overpass. The barrel of his

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Speaker 1: military style rifle is threaded through a gap in the

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Speaker 1: concrete barrier.

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Speaker 2: He's looking down on the LM rangers that had beads on,

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Speaker 2: essentially federal BLM officers.

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Speaker 1: It's officially an armed standoff in all of this over

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Speaker 1: some cows. The standoff started with Cliven Bundy, a rancher

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Speaker 1: who was grazing cattle on government land.

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Speaker 2: He had used this land for decades and decades and decades.

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Speaker 1: And had paid fees to the federal government.

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Speaker 2: In religiously for decades upon decades, but.

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Speaker 1: After some permit disputes in the early nineties, he decided

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Speaker 1: that Washington no longer had the right to charge him,

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Speaker 1: that he had an ancestral right to the land because

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Speaker 1: his Mormon ascendants had it before the federal government did.

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Speaker 3: The money's not to dale, the cows are not to

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Speaker 3: dale his freedom and liberty and get rid of this

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Speaker 3: amusing government.

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Speaker 1: Over twenty years, Bundy ignored court orders to relocate his herd.

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Speaker 1: He racked up more than a million dollars in unpaid fees.

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Speaker 1: By April twenty fourteen, the Bureau of Land Management had

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Speaker 1: come to collect, rounding up nearly four hundred of Bundy's

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Speaker 1: cows in arresting Bundy's son. Then the situation escalates. Another

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Speaker 1: one of Bundy's sons kicks a police dog, rangers tays him,

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Speaker 1: which riles Bundy supporters, who muster a full on militia

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Speaker 1: to converge on the ranch in face off against the Feds.

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Speaker 1: Men on horseback against men with ear pieces, And then

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Speaker 1: came the news trucks.

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Speaker 2: Tensions reached the boiling point earlier this week a real

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Speaker 2: Wild West Showdown.

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Speaker 1: How cows in our militia and Fox News turned one

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Speaker 1: man into a modern folk hero.

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Speaker 2: Huge media interests followed from that.

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Speaker 1: People want answers, and more than two thousand miles from Nevada.

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Speaker 1: At the Washington, d C. Headquarters of the Bureau of

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Speaker 1: Land Management, questions start pouring in.

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Speaker 2: What's going on here in Nevada? Why are there armed

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Speaker 2: agents here standing off with with Americans also armed over

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Speaker 2: some cows.

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Speaker 1: These information requests are piling up at the Bureau of

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Speaker 1: Land Management's Freedom of Information Act office. The foyer officers

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Speaker 1: need help, and they find Mike, a recent law school

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Speaker 1: grad and fellow at the BLM.

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Speaker 2: I was very happily working as a realty specialist working

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Speaker 2: on high priority transmission lines. As a presidential management they

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Speaker 2: had some FOI experience. The foyer shop was like many understaffed,

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Speaker 2: and they said, hey, Mike, we need a lawyer. Come

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Speaker 2: down here and help us out.

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Speaker 1: So he does, but he has his work cut out

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Speaker 1: for him.

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Speaker 2: There was three hundred plus media requests, tons of citizen interest.

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Speaker 1: The office is chaos, and Mike dives right in fielding

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Speaker 1: request after request, even the odd ones from anti government

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Speaker 1: types who were galvanized by the event.

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Speaker 2: We get requests asking if the president at the time

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Speaker 2: was really a space alien covered in human skin, and

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Speaker 2: our response to the Foyer shop we were like, well, yes,

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Speaker 2: we've been covering up this secret forever, and all the

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Speaker 2: presidents are just human skin covered reptiles that are from

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Speaker 2: outer space, and we know it here at the Bureau

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Speaker 2: of Land Management, the small component of the Department of Interior.

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Speaker 2: And now that you've submitted this Foyer request, here's the

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Speaker 2: record you got us.

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Speaker 1: As Mike would learn over the next decade fielding Foyer

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Speaker 1: requests in several government agencies. That's all in a day's

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Speaker 1: work for a public records officer.

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Speaker 2: I owe my FOYA career in large part to mister

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Speaker 2: Bundy and the great cattle Trespass Gather of twenty fourteen

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Speaker 2: hit It.

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Speaker 3: I'm investigative journalist Jason Leopold. I spent most of my

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Speaker 3: days getting documents from the government.

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Speaker 1: I'm attorney Matt Tapik, and I fight them in court

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Speaker 1: to open their files when they don't want to.

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Speaker 3: From Bloomberg and no Smiling, This is Disclosure, a podcast

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Speaker 3: about buying loose government secrets, the Freedom of Information Act,

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Speaker 3: and the unexpected places that takes.

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Speaker 1: Us well I don't often say this about government officials,

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Speaker 1: but Michael Sirich is a FOYA warrior. He's a guy who,

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Speaker 1: for a long time was on the inside of federal government,

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Speaker 1: yanking the curtains open so we all could get a

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Speaker 1: better view inside. For more than a decade, he worked

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Speaker 1: his way up through FOYA posts at four agencies, from

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Speaker 1: an officer at the Bureau of Land Management in the

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Speaker 1: Social Security Administration to director of the Veterans Health Administration

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Speaker 1: and the Department of Veterans Affairs. And that's a big

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Speaker 1: deal because the VA's FOYA program is the third largest

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Speaker 1: in the entire federal government. So Mike has accomplished something

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Speaker 1: really impressive. He's reduced the VA's FOYA backlong by ninety percent,

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Speaker 1: which basically means if you're trying to get your records

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Speaker 1: from the VA, Mike is the reason they show up

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Speaker 1: in months instead of never. Mike left the government in

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Speaker 1: September and now he's working on the outside on a

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Speaker 1: new program dedicated to government transparency and training. Michael, welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast. Very glad to have you here.

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Speaker 2: Pleasure to be here, and thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: I noticed behind you, what does that sign it's kind

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Speaker 3: of lurking out.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh sure, sure. So peace love and Foya, that's

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Speaker 2: is what it says. Yeah, says peace love and FOYA.

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Speaker 2: And it's just a nod to the fact that FOYA

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Speaker 2: became operative in nineteen sixty seven, the summer of love

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Speaker 2: and so peace love and Foya is all about, ah,

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Speaker 2: you know, hey, we need to be peaceful with our requesters.

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Speaker 2: Do this work in a sense of love and it's

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Speaker 2: FOY it it's about the freedom information and having that

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Speaker 2: relationship with the American people who pair sellaries. You need

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Speaker 2: to have FOYA stock baxactly.

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Speaker 3: So, Mike, you didn't see the detail working on the

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Speaker 3: FOYA as a step down, because sometimes I will read

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Speaker 3: that people who are detailed to FOYA, they've sometimes looked

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Speaker 3: at it as like this is a punishment if you're

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Speaker 3: detailed to the FOYA. You've heard those stories before, right,

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, for sure, in particular State Department where someone

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Speaker 3: said it was a kin to being stationed to Siberia.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, why do they say that? I don't know, to

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Speaker 2: be honest, because when I got down to the Foyer shop,

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Speaker 2: I saw an opportunity to tell the story that the

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Speaker 2: agency was doing to the American people who were paying

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Speaker 2: for that story. The bureauland Management, like all federal agencies,

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Speaker 2: exist to serve the American people. And here in Foyer,

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Speaker 2: you have this tremendous opportunity, indeed obligation to tell the

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Speaker 2: story through records of what the agency is doing on

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Speaker 2: behalf of the American people. So the way I saw

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Speaker 2: this incredib opportunity to go down and work in the

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Speaker 2: Foya shop was to help tell the story of why

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Speaker 2: did the Bureau of Land Management feel the need to

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Speaker 2: protect in this case, this endangered species, the land was

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Speaker 2: being preserved for the desert towards and why we needed

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Speaker 2: to take this action, and also in this case in

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Speaker 2: the cat standoff, to really demonstrate the years and years

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Speaker 2: and years of work that the Bureau Land Management engaged

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Speaker 2: until it got to this point. Because really, at this point,

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Speaker 2: every reasonable step had been taken to effectuate court orders,

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Speaker 2: every reasonable step had been taken to work with the

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Speaker 2: lease holders, every reasonable step had been taken to compensate

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Speaker 2: folks for you know, maybe lost revenue. And this was

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Speaker 2: the final straw. This was the absolute last thing that

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Speaker 2: the federal government could do in this instance. And this

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Speaker 2: is what got the most attention.

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Speaker 3: So I need to ask this this question and then Matta,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to bump it over to you. Okay, you

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Speaker 3: get over to the Bureau of Land Management, you're working

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Speaker 3: in the FOYA shop, You're bombarded with requests from the media,

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Speaker 3: from the public. When you start to see all the records,

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Speaker 3: you get access to what happened there?

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Speaker 2: What was that like?

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Speaker 3: Because I've always thought about, Gee, what would happen if

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Speaker 3: I was a FOI officer And suddenly I get to

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Speaker 3: see all of these emails unredacted, get full access, Mike,

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Speaker 3: No B five's right, nob six is get them?

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Speaker 2: Nont be five?

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Speaker 3: No B seven A yeah, just raw naked documents exactly.

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Speaker 2: So I liken this to being a parish priest. You

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Speaker 2: get all of the parish's deepest, darkest secrets, right like,

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Speaker 2: everybody comes in and tells you everything. And I've never

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Speaker 2: been a priest, or very unlikely to become one, but

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Speaker 2: I imagine it's similar in that the first couple of

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Speaker 2: weeks are probably intoxicatingly fun, like, oh my gosh, I

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Speaker 2: know everything, and then by week three or four you're

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Speaker 2: just worried about communicating this parishioner's needs upstairs and moving

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Speaker 2: on to the next center, if you will, and finding

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Speaker 2: resolution that way. It is a fantastic and sacred obligation

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Speaker 2: and trust that you're given. Make no mistake about it.

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Speaker 2: Boy officers must be some of the most trusted people

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Speaker 2: in any organization because exactly what you said, they have access,

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Speaker 2: complete access to literally every record that the agency has,

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Speaker 2: and it is their obligation to provide as much of that,

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Speaker 2: like literally everything that they can possibly provide to the

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Speaker 2: request while protecting the agency. And so it's critically critically

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Speaker 2: important that they're well helps to speed on all the exemptions,

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Speaker 2: all the laws, all of the regulations. But it's pretty fun,

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Speaker 2: There's no two ways about it. It's pretty fun for sure.

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Speaker 1: I may have done like hundreds of FOIL lawsuits, including

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Speaker 1: I think maybe some against agencies you've been at, but

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Speaker 1: I don't think our paths have crossed before, have they.

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Speaker 2: I think I've tiptoed through the lightning and been able

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Speaker 2: to avoid that. So no, but definitely well aware of

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Speaker 2: your work and appreciate the work that you're doing in

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Speaker 2: the boy community, not just here in the Disclosure podcast,

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Speaker 2: but in the FOIA field. Thank you. Jason. Are there

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Speaker 2: any Bundy foyas in your archive? Do you remember?

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Speaker 1: Were you making foyas for Bundy stuff?

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Speaker 3: So that's what I was thinking about it, and I was

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Speaker 3: so because one I totally remember it. Two it's definitely newsworthy,

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Speaker 3: so I would have most certainly have filed the Foyer,

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Speaker 3: but I can't find it. Mike, do you remember if

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Speaker 3: I filed? Do remember? I do remember that you were

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Speaker 3: one of the names Greenwald all of the Oh Greenwald?

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Speaker 3: Is that John Greenwald? Yeah, John Greenwald? So John Greenwald

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Speaker 3: is another frequent FOYA filer. And just a quick backstory,

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Speaker 3: John and I had filed numerous Foyer requests and sometimes

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Speaker 3: they are identical. And years ago I obtained some documents

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Speaker 3: from the Justice Department's Office of Information Policy, right, that's

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Speaker 3: the shop that handles oversees the Foyer operations, and I

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Speaker 3: think I asked for records on myself and anything related

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Speaker 3: to FOYA, and I got this set of emails from

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Speaker 3: the Justice Department's Office of Information Policy where they were

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Speaker 3: talking about me and John Greenwald and they referred to

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Speaker 3: us as a Foyer posse.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's the Foya possey.

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Speaker 3: That's the Foyle Posse and they said some other Justice

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Speaker 3: Department attorney said, oh, that should be their band name.

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Speaker 3: They were they were kind of criticizing us because like

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Speaker 3: they thought that we were sort of, you know, conspiring

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Speaker 3: not to pay fees.

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Speaker 2: I think it was the Foya Tang clan or something

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Speaker 2: like that. It was I like that clan. Oh that's

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Speaker 2: ft FTC, FTC, you know me.

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Speaker 3: So I filed a fouer request, and I'm sure I

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Speaker 3: did because of the you know, high profile nature of

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Speaker 3: this topic. But does my foyer request stand out? Was

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Speaker 3: there anything special about it?

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Speaker 2: You know? I would love to tell you that I

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Speaker 2: have it, you know, printed out and framed. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: what I was hoping, you'd say. At my last duty station,

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Speaker 2: we did one hundred twenty thousand four years that year

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Speaker 2: or so. Sadly, sometimes the you know, I hear you

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Speaker 2: lost in the sea of incredible request.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, very tactful. So let's get back to Bundy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, because you got a lot of requests, right,

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Speaker 1: were there any that did stand out? Because I think

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Speaker 1: there was some kind of wacky stuff going on.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you take the the good with the bad

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Speaker 2: and the funny with the with serious and we had

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Speaker 2: a lot, a lot of requests along those lines, and

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Speaker 2: you know, you get a whole mix of public comment

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Speaker 2: disguised as for you. Sometimes in this case, the land

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Speaker 2: was protected for the deaths records. Sometimes you would get

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Speaker 2: things who would just say I like turtle soup. People said, well,

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Speaker 2: you know what, I like to eat turtle soup. So there,

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Speaker 2: I mean, were there for the turtle soup? And I

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Speaker 2: guess for the space aliens? Were there actual requests.

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Speaker 1: Or were people just yeah, and what was it like

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Speaker 1: all documents showing whether the president's an alien or how

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Speaker 1: did they how did they structure those.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you would be surprised at how sophisticated a requests

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Speaker 2: like that could could be where they want.

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Speaker 3: All.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm not surprised, Mike, this doesn't surprise me at all.

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Speaker 2: It would continue, you know, all emails, limericks and assorted

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Speaker 2: things that would shed light on the fact that the

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Speaker 2: president is from outer space, along with his cabinet. Oh,

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Speaker 2: the cabinet too, okay, Oh yeah, I mean the president

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Speaker 2: couldn't exist on his own as a reptile. He would

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Speaker 2: need a whole colony of fellow reptiles too. But wait, Mike.

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Speaker 2: So here's a question. You get these requests, sure, and

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Speaker 2: you do what do you process the requests? Oh, certainly

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Speaker 2: you don't necessarily have to do a full record, you know,

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Speaker 2: exhaustive search. But you did a search? Did you do

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Speaker 2: a search? That's the question. I'm going to be very

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Speaker 2: thankful for the six year record retention schedule on Foye's

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Speaker 2: and note that this was longer than six years ago.

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Speaker 2: So I can't attest to the fulsomeness of the search.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that we went to sixteen hundred Pennsylvania

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Speaker 2: and asked the president to affirm his Keepman, that's hilarious.

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Speaker 1: So I've always wondered this, Mike, is who gets to decide,

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Speaker 1: especially if it's something that's like kind of sensitive. Do

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Speaker 1: the FOYA officers get to decide what to release? Or

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Speaker 1: does that have to go up through like chains of

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Speaker 1: command you know, then end with like political appointees making

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Speaker 1: those decisions.

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Speaker 2: The foy Offsker has the delegated authority to make these

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Speaker 2: decisions on behalf of the agency, and it must always

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Speaker 2: be this person with the delegated authority. Now that said,

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Speaker 2: there are certainly many organizations, if not all, that have

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Speaker 2: a process to review and quality control things that are

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Speaker 2: really important. The FOY officers not omniscient. The foyofsker can't

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Speaker 2: know all of the impacts for every record. So those

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Speaker 2: types of reviews help ensure that information goes out in

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Speaker 2: a fulsome way, and that it is all the information

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Speaker 2: that can go out. It's never the case in a

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Speaker 2: good FOYA program where a political appointee who you know

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Speaker 2: may not have that subject matter expertise, is going to

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Speaker 2: make that call. It's going to be the FOY officer

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Speaker 2: who signs the release saying, hey, this is my name

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Speaker 2: on this release letter. It is my responsibility, my obligation,

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Speaker 2: and my delegated authority to do so. Certainly input is taken,

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Speaker 2: but ultimately the FOY officer's decision. Who's the person who's

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Speaker 2: signing that lit.

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Speaker 1: I did notice in your answer you talked about a

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Speaker 1: good FOYA office. So I got to ask, so, I mean,

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Speaker 1: are there bad FOY offices? You don't have to name anybody.

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Speaker 2: There's a what regarded phrase and Floyd and went into

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Speaker 2: out black it out.

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Speaker 1: Ooh, went in out black it out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Because if you don't have confidence, because you don't

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Speaker 2: feel confident, then you end up doing things like, well,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, so I won't get in trouble for

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Speaker 2: blacking it out, but I will get in trouble for

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Speaker 2: releasing it. So I'm in doubt, I'm going to block

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Speaker 2: it out.

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Speaker 1: What's so interesting about that, and I guess disappointing about

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Speaker 1: that is that's the exact opposite of how it's supposed

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Speaker 1: to work. It's supposed to be if in doubt, produce it,

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Speaker 1: Like if if you can't prove it's exempt, then it's

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Speaker 1: got to be released. If the scope of the exemption

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Speaker 1: is wishy washy, well you're supposed to interpret it in

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Speaker 1: favor of disclosure. So it's totally understandable why this happens.

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Speaker 1: But like, are there some shops where it's the political

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Speaker 1: appointees who are really, you know, have more control And

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Speaker 1: what you're calling QC is really sort of like saving

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Speaker 1: embarrassment and you know, because is not. The exemptives are

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Speaker 1: not meant to be there to protect agencies from embarrassment.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes we see this when we sue things were redacted,

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Speaker 1: we win and redactions get lifted, and you kind of wonder,

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Speaker 1: this really should not have ever been redacted. And I

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Speaker 1: can see why they tried to get away with holding it.

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Speaker 1: But like, are there some shops where it's more there's

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Speaker 1: more political involvement in what gets released than others.

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Speaker 2: You know with eight hundred like individual reporting units, you

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Speaker 2: know they go go up to doj in terms of

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Speaker 2: reporting their metrics. It's certain that there's probably a reporting

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Speaker 2: unit or two where maybe there is a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a heavier hand or not. But I think what

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Speaker 2: ultimately you see in those when reactions get lifted like that,

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Speaker 2: it's really just a training situation where a FOY officer

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Speaker 2: may be new, there's really high turnover and a lot

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Speaker 2: of Foyer shops. Sometimes, as Jason pointed out, it's not

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Speaker 2: considered the most incredible career move to be in that

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Speaker 2: Foya shop. So normally, I think that's a reflection of

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Speaker 2: inconsistencies in training versus situation where or someone's maliciously going

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Speaker 2: in and saying, hell, we're not going to give Leopold anything.

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Speaker 2: That Voyd terrorist is not getting a thing out of us.

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Speaker 2: So if he prints this request, he's gonna use all

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Speaker 2: of his toner right like, because it's just gonna be

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Speaker 2: black sheet after black sheet after black sheet, and maybe

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Speaker 2: if you does, and ads will leave in there just

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Speaker 2: to tease them. But yeah, I think in most cases

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Speaker 2: it's an issue where the FOY officer isn't maybe very

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Speaker 2: well trained or very confident in their training, so they're

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Speaker 2: not confident, they're gonna tend to overreact. And if they're

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Speaker 2: very confident and they can articulate the reasons behind why

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Speaker 2: they're releasing overholding, then they're in a much better spot.

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Speaker 3: Over the years, as I interacted with more FOYA officers,

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Speaker 3: Matt and Mike, I definitely understand what goes on behind

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Speaker 3: the scenes and the agencies much better as it relates

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Speaker 3: to the processing. I've definitely dealt with, and you know this, Matt,

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Speaker 3: agencies that are just terrible with FOYA. And you know,

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Speaker 3: the first one that always comes to mind for me

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Speaker 3: is the FBI. I just think that their FOYA operations

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Speaker 3: leave a lot to be desired. And then another agency

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Speaker 3: is State Department, and that may be due to the

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Speaker 3: fact that they are bombarded with requests and they just

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Speaker 3: have a massive backlog, you know, just trying to get

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Speaker 3: through it. But the most part, when I interact with

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Speaker 3: FOYA officers, they absolutely are dedicated to the work passionate

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Speaker 3: about it and want to get the records out. So

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Speaker 3: I've always been curious about where's that hiccup where the

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Speaker 3: sort of adversarial relationship between request an agency or FOYA

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Speaker 3: officer comes in. And that's actually I want to segue

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Speaker 3: to that question, Mike, because there is sort of this

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Speaker 3: belief that FOYA officers and requests have an adversarial relationship.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think that is? I don't know, but

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Speaker 2: I think it's grounded in why anyone has an absurd

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Speaker 2: relationship with anyone else, And that's communication and understanding of

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Speaker 2: where the other person's coming from. I view foy's role

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Speaker 2: as an opportunity to tell the agency story. And I'm

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Speaker 2: always happy to tell the agency story at whatever agency

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Speaker 2: I'm working at. Whether that's the Bureau of my Management,

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Speaker 2: the Social Security Administration BAPHA, doesn't matter. There's a good

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Speaker 2: story to be told. Also, trying to understand what the

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Speaker 2: requests point of view is, What is the request you're

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Speaker 2: trying to get At a lot of times, requesters will

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Speaker 2: kind of bury their motive, like they won't really tell

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Speaker 2: you why they're looking for something, then they don't have to.

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Speaker 2: But if they do tell you what exactly they're looking for,

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Speaker 2: the exact needle that they're looking for, A fuy officer

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Speaker 2: can often find it much faster than a request or can,

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Speaker 2: and so instead of asking for every record related to this,

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Speaker 2: say hey, I'm really interested in this piece, if you

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Speaker 2: know what you're interested in, and then the boy officer

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Speaker 2: can take that targeted request and provide a timely response.

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Speaker 2: So that's an area that I think reeds a little

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Speaker 2: bit of animosity because the fuy offser may feel like

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Speaker 2: she's on a wild goose chase and the play requestion.

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Speaker 2: I feel like, well, why is the staking hundreds and

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Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of days when it's supposed to take twenty.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the number of days. So

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Speaker 1: I want, I do want to talk about backlogs because

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Speaker 1: you know, I noticed that one of the things you

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Speaker 1: achieved at VA was like a ninety percent reduction in backlogs,

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Speaker 1: right like that. First, thank you for that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that really is a service to our country to do that.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Mike.

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Speaker 1: So I'm looking at that and I'm scratching my head

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Speaker 1: and I'm wondering. We talked about the Office of Information

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Speaker 1: Policy for a minute so this is an office within

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Speaker 1: the Justice Department. They process Feyer requests for the Attorney

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Speaker 1: General and some other kind of departments and divisions within

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Speaker 1: the DOJ. If there's any agency that should have their

401
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Speaker 1: FOYA house in order, I would contend it's OIP because

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Speaker 1: they also have this sort of widespread federal leadership role

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Speaker 1: where they issue guidance. And OIP is not getting it done,

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Speaker 1: then all these other agencies can really easily say, well,

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Speaker 1: we're no worse than op. So every year, agencies have

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Speaker 1: to report their backlogs in the average response times, and

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Speaker 1: the statue requires twenty to thirty business days to issue

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Speaker 1: a determination, and the courts say that typically the production

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Speaker 1: of records should occur days or weeks, not months or

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Speaker 1: years after that. So we're talking about like a couple

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Speaker 1: of months of time for the typical request to be

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Speaker 1: processed and complied with. But if you look at OIP

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Speaker 1: for say twenty twenty four complex requests, that average response

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Speaker 1: is six hundred and fifty days. It's in order of

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Speaker 1: magnitude larger than what the statute is calling for. This

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Speaker 1: is what I find the most difficult to accept. That

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in your views on it for expedited requests,

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Speaker 1: ones in which the agency admits that there's an urgency

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Speaker 1: to inform the public. It's basically the same six hundred days.

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Speaker 1: This is OIP saying, we recognize that there's an urgency

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Speaker 1: to inform of the public, but we're going to take

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Speaker 1: almost two years to respond to the requests. Like you

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Speaker 1: could understand why people get really frustrated and say, the

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Speaker 1: government's not doing its jobs.

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Speaker 2: So what's your reaction to that? So when my wife

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Speaker 2: asks me for my phone, I hand it over to

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Speaker 2: her if we're on a trip or something like that,

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Speaker 2: like right away, you know, like, hey, I hear you

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Speaker 2: go whatever you need. But if I told her it's

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Speaker 2: going to be two hundred business days and we're equivalent

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Speaker 2: on fees, and it's a different conversation, right, that trust

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00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 2: factor is going to go way down. So the faster

433
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,479
Speaker 2: that you can give people information, the more reliably they

434
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 2: will trust you, because they then aren't going to fill

435
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,639
Speaker 2: in the blanks of time absolutely with like why is

436
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 2: this taking so long? Right, Well, this is just a memo,

437
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 2: this is just a file. What is the deal here?

438
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 2: You know, a reasonable interregnum is fine, but six hundred

439
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,399
Speaker 2: days four hundred days for expierty requests especially, it just

440
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense.

441
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 1: How were you able to reduce by ninety percent, but

442
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,880
Speaker 1: OIP has got these massive backlogs still.

443
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: The way that VHA first and then VA at large

444
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 2: was able to reduce our FOY backlogs because the people

445
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 2: that we have committed to the mission. I'm a veteran

446
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,160
Speaker 2: and there's a lot of veterans at VA and BHA,

447
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 2: and it's very easy to get super motivated about that

448
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 2: mission working largely for folks that are trying to get

449
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 2: access to things like healthcare, home loans, student benefits, you

450
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 2: name it. So a huge credit to the nine hundred

451
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 2: or so folks scattered across twelve time zones at the

452
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 2: VA who made that happen. Wow, nine hundred amazing. A

453
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 2: lot of requests that VA are driven by veterans seeking

454
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 2: access to an earned benefits, so it's really easy to

455
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 2: be motivated for that. There's a lot of ways to

456
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,439
Speaker 2: unpack how we got there. The really important metric in

457
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,959
Speaker 2: my view is average processing time. Yes, how long does

458
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 2: it take an average veteran to get what she's requesting,

459
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 2: what he's requesting in order to obtain that earned benefit.

460
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 2: That's what really matters to me. The most important thing

461
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 2: here is that we're continuing to drive our average processing

462
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 2: time down to your point, FOYE should be about a

463
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,479
Speaker 2: month long process. And this is why I'm so fashionate

464
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 2: about technology tools that largely barred from the discovery world,

465
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 2: that enable you to look at large spasset documents, get

466
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 2: to the meat of the matter, find out what's protected

467
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 2: and what's not, and then move move forward. You know,

468
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 2: you have FOY requests that are toddlers. Mine have master's degrees.

469
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: I mean, would you agree with me that six hundred

470
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: plus days to respond to requests like that, especially urgent requests.

471
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 1: This is not what Congress had in mind.

472
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 2: Right when the President signed this law in nineteen sixty

473
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: six and it became operative in nineteen sixty seven. No

474
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 2: one envisioned that the request would be like this, And

475
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 2: how could they have, right, like, there's there's no way

476
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 2: that you know, Lbj's on his ranch signing this and

477
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 2: thinking that this is going to be anything anything like this,

478
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: reluctantly signing it at that Yeah, exactly, very exactly on

479
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 2: July fourth, though we have an actual document signed on

480
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 2: July fourth, which you know is distinguishes it from the declaration.

481
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: So that's a good deal, right. So the idea that

482
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 2: every single person in those toy shops virtually also want

483
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 2: to get those FOI requests out not in six hundred

484
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 2: and fifty days, but they all want to get them

485
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 2: out in twenty or thirty days. They want to get

486
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 2: these things moving so they can move on to the

487
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 2: next one, largely because there's no end in requests. You know,

488
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 2: millions of requests a year now, and so people want

489
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,959
Speaker 2: to move these requests as quickly as as possible. And

490
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 2: that's you know, that's why you see the push to attack.

491
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: You mentioned technologies some agencies have maybe not quite stated

492
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: the are a pretty current systems. They're used in litigation

493
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: context for dealing with massive amounts of documents. I've seen

494
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 1: other agencies with very archaic systems in understaffing and all that.

495
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 1: So I've always wondered, like our FOYA offices trying to

496
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: get the money into their budgets to pay for these things,

497
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: or are they like whenever I try to foile my

498
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: way into that answer, I never seem to get documents

499
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 1: or it ironically takes like years. But are agencies actually

500
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: trying to get more money to comply, or they just

501
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: because you could see how if you thought that the

502
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: political heads were perfectly fine with long backlogs because it

503
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: just means they'll be out office by the time anything

504
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 1: comes out, you could see why they wouldn't have much

505
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: incentive to try to fix the problem.

506
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 2: Right, There's a reason the twenty sixteen FOY amendments where

507
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 2: it'signed at the end of the administration, at the beginning

508
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 2: of an administration. Like, that's not a coincidence, right, Like

509
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 2: that is I design? Yeah, And to be fair, it

510
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: doesn't matter if it's an R or a D. This

511
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 2: I would have expected the same outcome. Totally agree. Yeah,

512
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: you know, that's just the way it is, right.

513
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: A phrase that I throw around a lot in Please

514
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 1: don't take this as disparagement. If government officials were inclined

515
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: to be transparent, we wouldn't need a FOYA statue.

516
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 2: They would just be doing it right. So, yeah, it

517
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 2: is fascinating. Some of the work that I'm doing right

518
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 2: now on the consulting side is finding out that the

519
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: answer to this exact question, what is a total addressable

520
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 2: market of FOYA? What are people using? And it is

521
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 2: astonishing that people are proud to say that we use

522
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: Adobe and the Microsoft suite of tools, and that's what

523
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 2: they use. And it is impossible to imagine running any

524
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: type of FOYA program with more than a few requests

525
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 2: a year. So if you're the Truman Scholarship Foundation and

526
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: you're getting fifteen or FOY requests here, got it, no problem.

527
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 2: If you're over fifty or one hundred requests and you're

528
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 2: not using a tool purpose built for FOYA, then you're

529
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 2: really missing out. And I think that's part of the

530
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 2: FOY Advisory Committee's movement towards a common case platform where

531
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 2: the entirety of the federal government could be on on

532
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 2: a system that A talks to each other B has

533
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 2: a commonality of training, so that if a FOY officer

534
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 2: works at Agency A and they move to Agency B,

535
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 2: there's no learning curve. They are working in the same

536
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 2: optimized system that is affordable across the federal government. The

537
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: real challenges if you foid the contracts for a department

538
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 2: like HHS where people are choosing different FOYA platforms, you'll

539
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 2: see that they're paying different prices even if they're buying

540
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: the same platform.

541
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: You're seeing inside of one department. Sure there are different

542
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 1: technology stacks that are being used to process fluyerws within

543
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: the same department.

544
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 2: Yep. Absolutely, and that's crazy. There's some great leadership going

545
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 2: on at HHS and other places to move away from that.

546
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 2: This is the current action in the foyer world where

547
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 2: people are looking to platforms, discovery platforms that can provide

548
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 2: some kind of commonality for the foy officers and moreover

549
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: to provide quality control and oversight. We're in a world

550
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: now where the tools have gotten better, better and better

551
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: and better. In fact, I think the real answer for

552
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: FOYA is going to be small language models, not large

553
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 2: language models. The technology that's specifically trained in this area

554
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 2: to be able to work in the foyer space where

555
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 2: there's a lot of nuance, to be able to move

556
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,479
Speaker 2: these cases much quicker, So not the six hundred day cases,

557
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 2: but the twenty or thirty day cases and get them

558
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 2: out the door in a much much faster way. And

559
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 2: so when you're litigating, you're not looking at three hundred

560
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 2: pages a month. You can genuinely and reasonably get thousands

561
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 2: on thousands of pages a month and get these things done.

562
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, by the way, Mike, that's and Matt, wouldn't

563
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 3: that be amazing if the FBI were like, all right,

564
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 3: we have eighteen million pages and we could actually get

565
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 3: thousands a month.

566
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: I mean, that's it's like a cash machine.

567
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 3: That's like an ATM, Like every month, every month, I'm

568
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 3: going to get thousands of pages. So, you know, you

569
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 3: talked about HHS and like some of the good leadership

570
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 3: going on there and the various technologies that are in

571
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 3: place now. But there's also an elephant in the room here,

572
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,719
Speaker 3: which is FOYA offices have been decimated this year, right,

573
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 3: they're just have It's documented CDC's FOYA staff gone, and

574
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 3: at other agencies that we've seen a reduction in the

575
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 3: FOYA staff. When Matt and I were sort of discussing, like,

576
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 3: all right, what's FOYA going to look like in twenty

577
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 3: twenty five, we actually thought, and I don't want to

578
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 3: speak format, but I thought that it would more or.

579
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: Less look the same as it did in years past.

580
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: Foolish me, I took with a grain of salt. I

581
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: took Elon Musk's comments to heart when he said that

582
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: virtually all government records should be readily available. It should

583
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: be only in very limited circumstances that anything gets withheld,

584
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: and you should barely even need to use FOYA because

585
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: I think if your political philosophy is sort of distrust

586
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: of government, distrust of agencies, in believing that we have

587
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: too much unaccountable bureaucracy, well foya's for you. I mean, right,

588
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: that's what FOYA is four is to help us understand

589
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: all these things. And you know, of course, then they

590
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: came in and decimated the Foy offices. So you know,

591
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: I know Elon must didn't run for office, but the

592
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: same idea that people run for office on these platforms

593
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: that they're going to be transparent, and then they get

594
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: in office and they're not, and they wait until the

595
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: end of their term and then and then they stick

596
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: it on the next ones.

597
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 3: And that's not unique to this administration. That's just the

598
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 3: way it's been. But I have never seen Foyer offices

599
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 3: kind of caught up in the crossfire where now you

600
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: have whole agencies FOYA offices that are just gone. And

601
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 3: so I have request sitting out there to various agencies

602
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 3: where there's either one person or there's no one there

603
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 3: and wondering, you know, what happens with the Foyer, you know,

604
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 3: with my Foyer requests. So I'm just Mike, I'm just

605
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 3: wondering what's the remedy that.

606
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: That's a great question. I well remember Elon saying exactly that,

607
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: Matt I clipped it, put it on LinkedIn very robust

608
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: conversation around it, and then does took zero FOI requests

609
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: and said that they're part of the Presidential Records Act.

610
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: So it's exactly right. And Jason, to your point, I

611
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 2: think when the stats come out, presumably in March or

612
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six, which is when they generally government wide

613
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 2: statistics come out around Sunshine Week, I think you're going

614
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 2: to be seeing just numbers that are bonkers, the increases

615
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 2: in requests, processing time, and the decreases in personnel. Provided

616
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 2: the numbers are captured accurately. Right, there's a real concern

617
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: and base in terms of whether, and that's part of

618
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: my ongoing research now is what is the true cost

619
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 2: of transparency? What are we actually paying for contract support?

620
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: What are we actually paying for the discovery solutions? What

621
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: are we actually paying for COPS products? Because the numbers

622
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: I think are going to be really surprising once all

623
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 2: this information is fully compiled what is the true cost

624
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: of transparency in the federal government. And it's clear that

625
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 2: we're not getting the bang for the buck. And I

626
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 2: think that the statistics in March are going to show

627
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: a real year over year delta that's not good for transparency.

628
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 2: And largely the brand DRAN that's shogging about is going

629
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: to be responsible for part of that that good people

630
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 2: have left solid programs and left good people behind as well. However,

631
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 2: you need a certain mass kind of colon piles doctrine

632
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 2: of overwhelming force. We don't have overwhelming force, and we

633
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 2: do need force multipliers in the Foyer community. And I

634
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: think technology will get us part of the way there,

635
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: but you can't do it without people. You know, the

636
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: best MRI is worthless if there's not a trained person

637
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: to interpret it and unprovide advice related to it.

638
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 3: So I said, you know, these offices have been kind

639
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 3: of caught in the crossfire. Do you believe that as

640
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 3: well or do you have a different take in terms

641
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 3: of how these Foyer offices ended up being more or

642
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 3: less shut down during the course of the purge.

643
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: This year of federal government workers for some of the

644
00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 2: departments and some of the agencies. The reorganization was very

645
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: necessary and will yield long term dividends. In many departments

646
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: with components act as if they're part of a confederation,

647
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: they're kind of doing their own thing, and they're not.

648
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: They don't have, you know, org line chart responsibility to

649
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 2: maybe someone in the Senior Ejective Service like they'd do

650
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 2: with the Department of Interior now, so there's not that

651
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 2: kind of command and control that can get results, and

652
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: so part of this is going to think be a

653
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: long term benefit for the federal government and transparency. Interesting, however,

654
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: when you look at Plates's most famously at oh PM

655
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: where someone tried to put in a FOY request and

656
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: the person on the phone said, hey, good luck, they

657
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: just fired everybody.

658
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 4: Good luck with that. They just fired the entire privacy team.

659
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, that actually happened to a CNN reporter earlier this

660
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 3: year when you filed a request with the Office of

661
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 3: Personnel Management.

662
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 2: I believe there was a video of it.

663
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 4: That's the email I got back when I filed a

664
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 4: pretty routine records request asking for documents related to Elon

665
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 4: musk role in the Trump administration, including his security clearance.

666
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 2: That's not helpful. Has to be a human being. There

667
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 2: a number of human beings there to provide that transparency

668
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 2: because the computers can't do it by themselves, and one

669
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: person by themselves can only triage maybe at best, but

670
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,240
Speaker 2: they're never going to get to a response. Litigation will ensue,

671
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: the fees will accrue, and the agency can can find

672
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 2: themselves paying multiple, multiple hundreds of thousands, if not to

673
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 2: the millions of dollars in FOY related fees. Because judges

674
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: will also lose their patients. I'm sure you've seen Mattin

675
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: and judges continuing to lose their patients with administrations that

676
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 2: drag their heels consistently and say we can't do this,

677
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 2: we can't do that. Then they look at the agencies

678
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: headcount and they look at the agency's budget and say,

679
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 2: well that's your problem, not mine, like you need to

680
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 2: be able to do this.

681
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,240
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought that up. I mean, I think

682
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 1: this year has been a tipping point. I think historically

683
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: courts have been very reluctant to micromanage you know, how

684
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: much money, how many resources agencies are putting into FOYA,

685
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 1: and instead what they do the further behind the agencies fall.

686
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: The courts just lower the processing rates to accommodate. I mean,

687
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: it's not really f the problem at all, it's it's

688
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: enabling the problem. I think this year has been different

689
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: because when when the answer is, oh, we fired all

690
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: the FOYA people, they've gone so far. Now the courts

691
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: are like, I gave you some leeway, but like you

692
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: cannot just fire all the FOY staff and then say

693
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: we're not going to process requires. So they went so

694
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: far that I think it has moved back, and my

695
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 1: hope is that that momentum continues and we, you know,

696
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: we continue to kind of put the emphasis on this

697
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 1: that we should.

698
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 2: There's another side to this coin that I think is

699
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 2: really worth mentioning. There's some agencies where they've got a

700
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 2: requirement for their FOY officers to put through ten thousand

701
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 2: pages a week, and some of those are checked and

702
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 2: some of those are not. So what you end up

703
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 2: having is a lot of overwork, over stressed foil officers

704
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 2: just kind of going yep yep, yep, yep yep to

705
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 2: meet a number that they have to produce without spending

706
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 2: the time. The line by line, page by page analysis

707
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 2: that by law says that has that you have to

708
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 2: accomplish well.

709
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: If a poorly trained FOY officer isn't sure what to do,

710
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: they're going to err on the side of withholding, right.

711
00:35:59,640 --> 00:35:59,879
Speaker 2: Sure.

712
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: So when you couple that with what you just said,

713
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: if you're trying to just get them to pound through

714
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: a bunch of documents as fast as possible, it seems

715
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: to me like what's going to happen is they're going

716
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: to end up over redacting and over withholding those documents.

717
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: They're not just going to say, oh, here you go,

718
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: here's a bunch of documents, because like, I'm cool with

719
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: that outcome. I mean, there are certain things I recognize

720
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: agen she shouldn't be releasing, like people's social Security numbers.

721
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 1: But a whole lot of this stuff is very discretionary

722
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: and if they want to release it, they can't.

723
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: Right, And I've made so much of my career in

724
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 2: terms of discretionary release. We had a situation in California

725
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 2: at BLM where someone's pistol was stolen and later the

726
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,479
Speaker 2: weapon that was said it was dropped and the round

727
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: killed a woman and the gun was obsession with the

728
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: leage immigrant at the time. In San Francisco. Immigration Illegal

729
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 2: immigration a hot topic for sure in that community, and

730
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: so people look to the bureauland management and they're like, hey,

731
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 2: how did this happen? If you don't have any control

732
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: over your weapons. Then what we did is we showed

733
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 2: our history of gun loss relative to the rest of

734
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: the world terms of other law enforcement agencies and really

735
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 2: very very bottom in terms of guns for officer lost

736
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 2: the last the last on there and able to put

737
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 2: that in context. If more foyer shops would be more

738
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 2: fulsome with their information and discretionary release information to kind

739
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 2: of put their story in context for what the person

740
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 2: is looking for, a lot of things that may seem

741
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 2: sensational become very reasonable in terms of what has happened,

742
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 2: because in the main, you have very good people on

743
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 2: the federal side trying to do their best possible work.

744
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: And if you give the full story, if you're able

745
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 2: to actually provide all of that data on a discretionary basis,

746
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 2: you end up with, you know, hey, that's that's a

747
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 2: human being trying to do a really hard job, and

748
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 2: this is what they chose with the information that they had,

749
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: and things become more reasonable versus like, can't believe they

750
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: did that?

751
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that does a lot to turn the tide on,

752
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: you know, the distrust of government in our countries. I mean,

753
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 1: it's just continues to mount.

754
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 2: It humanizes it.

755
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So anything Foyer officers can do to release

756
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: more information you are really helping to deal with that

757
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: and to show people that they don't need to be

758
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: so distrustful that they it's and it's you know, the

759
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: classic the cover up is worse than the crime. So, Mike,

760
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: you're working now on something called Foyer University. Tell us

761
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 1: more about that.

762
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 2: We're launching that in January, full suite of FOYA trainings

763
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 2: and tools for FOYER professionals. The turnover and the FOYA

764
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: profession can be you know, thirty forty percent in some shops,

765
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 2: and want to provide an outlet and an opportunity for

766
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: people to get credentials and to get certifications in the

767
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 2: core competencies of FOYA. So we've done things like we've

768
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: released our most recent white paper on small language models.

769
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 2: We call it the slim Solution to a fat problem

770
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: of FEOYA processing and really dig down into the current

771
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 2: technology and how it can impact FOY operations. And it's

772
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,919
Speaker 2: gotten a lot of traction. We've done a few cool

773
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 2: things I can tell you that we've rewritten the DOJ

774
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 2: FOYA Guide, the one thousand page tome filled with footnotes.

775
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 2: It's under two hundred pages, it's accessible, it's graph it

776
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 2: has an opportunity to really get into it and learn.

777
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 2: So we're recording the videos that go along with that,

778
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 2: along with FOYA program management to help people that get

779
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 2: tagged to go into this FOYA field. How can you

780
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: be successful in this field?

781
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 3: I do want to ask how I become a tenured

782
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: professor at Foya University.

783
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 2: I'm looking for work after you know my my journalism

784
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 2: correct well, so many are and you'd be a very

785
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 2: welcome adjunct professor's initially at fly adjunc No. I want

786
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 2: tenure tenure, Mike. If you can bring more courses to

787
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,280
Speaker 2: the table like that Professor Leopold, we'd be delighted to

788
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 2: welcome you into our into our university. I think I may,

789
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 2: I think I may have to work on that.

790
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: You know, we people think of FOYA as like journalists

791
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: using it or maybe like companies using it. But you

792
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 1: know you've talked just now about just individual people using

793
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,879
Speaker 1: their rights to records under FOYA to get any number

794
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 1: of things. What are some other things you've seen of

795
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 1: like just individual people using FOYA.

796
00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 2: Sure, First partly, FOYA is a real thing, and I

797
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,760
Speaker 2: think it's incredibly important. For example, at VHA of woman

798
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: called and she was the former wife of a service

799
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 2: member who've committed suicides, and she was looking for his

800
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 2: last medical records to see if there's anything in there

801
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 2: that she could get some closure to because the veteran

802
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: committed suicide a few days after a VHA appointment and

803
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 2: kind of had to add some stonewall in there, had

804
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 2: it like, hey, you're not you were divorced from this

805
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 2: service member. But she was working in concert with her

806
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 2: former mother in law and she was right there with them,

807
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 2: and we were able to get her access to those records,

808
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 2: so those two women could have some closure in this

809
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: really traumatic and horrible moment in their lives. And that's

810
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 2: just one way how FOYA can impact people on a

811
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: human level and help people cope in a really awful situation.

812
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,240
Speaker 2: And that story is replicated one hundred and twenty thousand

813
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 2: times a year, not exactly, of course, but like the

814
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 2: story of humans getting access to information that can help

815
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:54,720
Speaker 2: improve their lives.

816
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: Any other examples you can share with us, whether it's

817
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,720
Speaker 1: like VA or Social Security Administration, and you know people

818
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 1: using FOYA for individual interesting things.

819
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 2: Sure social Security Administration. What you see time and time again,

820
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 2: are people really interested in, you know, where did I

821
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: come from? Where is my family from? In a great

822
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 2: way that genealogists and other people that are really interested

823
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 2: in finding their identity and figuring out where they come

824
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: from are through social Security records. Because when you get

825
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 2: an original Social Security number, yes for your place of

826
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 2: birth and that your parents made names and so there's

827
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: are really important clues for people to look back and

828
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 2: research and find where they have come from. At the

829
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: Veterans Health Administration, we saw countless times where people were

830
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 2: trying to substantiate claims, does my dad really need assistance? Here?

831
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 2: Has my mom qualified for help by virtue of her service?

832
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 2: Camp La June issues? Folks that had served and had

833
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 2: illnesses associated with water. My own uncle who was at

834
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 2: Camp La June and had significant medical issues able to

835
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 2: get access to his records through the FOYA and qualify

836
00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,919
Speaker 2: for earned benefits. Then you see these in older vetter

837
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 2: is more than anyone else. And now you're seeing that

838
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 2: cohorts your Vietnam era some of your Korean but more

839
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 2: so your Vietnam Era. Plus that maybe they don't have

840
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 2: the facility with a computer to really get into these things,

841
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: to get into the records and kind of provide self service.

842
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 2: So the FOY officers really help them and help walk

843
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 2: them through that process to help either caregivers or the

844
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 2: better than themselves get access to the documents that will

845
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 2: substantiate their service, to provide them with information that will

846
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 2: enable them to really, in many cases, live a much

847
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 2: higher quality of life where they'll have access to better care,

848
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 2: perhaps a nursing home that is for veterans, or you know,

849
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: any type of service along those lines that will provide

850
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: them some comfort in their final years. The federal government

851
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 2: touches our lives in so many ways, and there's an

852
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 2: administration for that. If you're doing it, there's someone in

853
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 2: the federal government that has a touch point and a

854
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 2: record that can help you achieve literally any goal that

855
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 2: you're trying to accomplish. My favorite FOY isn't even really

856
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 2: a FOI. The Right Brothers when they were doing or

857
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 2: an nautical experimentation in Ohio and then going to Kitty Hawk,

858
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 2: they sent a request to the Smithsonian institution, so you

859
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: can do now, you can send a foid to the Smithsonian,

860
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 2: It's no problem. And they ask for all of the

861
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 2: charts and every bit of information that they could have.

862
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 2: And even though Samuel Langley, who was the head of

863
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: the SMITHSONI at the time, was also engaged in this

864
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 2: very activity, he said send them everything. Wow. And he

865
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: also said, hey, if you want my pamphlet, it will

866
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 2: be two dollars. The right brothers sent back two bucks

867
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 2: and they got the pamphlet. Right. So even even a

868
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 2: fee use in that instance, And that's kind of part

869
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 2: of our culture. I think that's ingrained in the in

870
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 2: the American experience. We will share anything with you. If

871
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 2: you can do it, better, go for it right here

872
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 2: you go. And so that freedom of information, that transparency,

873
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 2: I feel like he is really a fundamental bedrock to

874
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 2: what our country is and FOYA really enables that.

875
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: Mike, in your experience, have you seen businesses using FOYA

876
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: to you know, help with with their business operations or

877
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: learn learn things that are good for their businesses?

878
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, not just good for the business, but also

879
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 2: good for the tax payer. What you'll see frequently is

880
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 2: five businesses or six businesses may bid for a project,

881
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 2: one will you know, certainly get it. Oftentimes the other

882
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 2: companies will make a FLOY request for that contract and

883
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,280
Speaker 2: that will give them some insight in terms of pricing

884
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: and services and other ways that they can strengthen their

885
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 2: bids in the future. Ultimately, who benefits from that the

886
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 2: American tax payer, because these businesses can come back with

887
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 2: better honed projects and responses to the request for proposals,

888
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 2: and ultimately the American tax payer should be getting a

889
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 2: better price at the end of the day. Ultimately, a

890
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 2: number of businesses use FOYA to gain information when they're

891
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: developing products, when they're trying to bring something to market.

892
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: And what this does, hopefully is it speeds a development

893
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: curve and enables the American consumer to have better products

894
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 2: at better prices. So you see a tremendous value in

895
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 2: the foyer for business information, and you see that all

896
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 2: over the place with the number of companies that are

897
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 2: making requests on behalf of say private equity or other

898
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 2: com companies in order to gain a competitive advantage. Ultimately,

899
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 2: that competitive advantage should be born out in lower prices

900
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 2: for American consumers.

901
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: And I think what gets missed sometimes is that those

902
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: types of requests, they pay additional fees to help cover

903
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: the cost of those requests. So this isn't just kind

904
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: of the taxpayers subsidizing private businesses through you know, getting

905
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 1: them records. I mean there's a process by which those.

906
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 2: Costs are largely born by those requests.

907
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: Right which is it is?

908
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 2: It should be? Yeah, they pay one hundred percent full

909
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 2: freight for search and review and right now we look

910
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 2: at a very small percentage of the FOYA operations being

911
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 2: recovered through this, and they help make that happen and

912
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 2: more to come on that for sure.

913
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for that, Mike, and thank you for

914
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: the work you've done for a veterans. Thank you for

915
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: your service as a veteran. I think it really helps

916
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: people to understand just how broad the statue is in

917
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: the many things that it can accomplish. It's not just

918
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: for journalists, it's for everybody, and there's a lot of

919
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: good that you can do. I have a final question,

920
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: what's on your music playlist right now?

921
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 2: I have a lot of Taylor Swift lately because I

922
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 2: have a children, and the Wicked playlist has been prevalent

923
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,919
Speaker 2: as we all wicked, just all Wicked too, but yeah,

924
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: my personal playlist is usually usually filled with the Doors

925
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 2: and the Allman Brothers, Leonard Skinner and NWS. So it's

926
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 2: a good mix.

927
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: Oh nice, that's a good mix. And on the Taylor's

928
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: soit point, I may you have good foya karma.

929
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 2: I appreciate that. And thank you to Jason and everybody

930
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 2: else for the work that you do on the request

931
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 2: side for helping keep the FOYD community so well engage

932
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 2: and informed of what's going on. What you're doing to

933
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,240
Speaker 2: highlight the important work that goes on across the federal

934
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 2: community is really important, and I think we're just hitting

935
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 2: the tip of the iceberg because there's also state and

936
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,839
Speaker 2: local freedom Information Acts and indeed international freedom Information Acts

937
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 2: that really help illuminate what's going on across the world.

938
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, mag this has been a wonderful discussion.

939
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 2: Thank you, Mike. Stay tuned for next week his the

940
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 2: season to be foyed. Why are you wearing an elf costume? Greetings?

941
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: I request the first twenty five pages you.

942
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 2: Locate for the term quote Santa Claus. Oh my god.

943
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: Despite what may be unauthorized violations of US airspace, violations

944
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: of eavesdropping and privacy laws involving minor children. A second,

945
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 1: and the opportunity to use his annual delivery run to

946
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: distribute narcotics manufactured by Zelms.

947
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 2: From Bloomberg and No Smiling. This is Disclosure.

948
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 3: The show is hosted by Matt Topic and me Jason Leopold.

949
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 3: It's produced by Heather Schroing and Sean Cannon for No Smiling.

950
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 3: Our editor for Bloomberg is Jeff Brocott. Our executive producers

951
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 3: for Bloomberg are Sage Bauman and me Jason Leopold, and

952
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 3: our executive producers for No Smiling are Sean Cannon, Heather

953
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 3: Schrowing and Matt Topic. The Disclosure theme song is by Nick,

954
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 3: with additional music by Nick an Epidemic Sound, sound design

955
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 3: and mixing by Sean Cannon.

956
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Mike Serich. For more transparency news and

957
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 2: important document thumps.

958
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 3: You can subscribe to my Weeklyfoya Files newsletter at Bloomberg

959
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 3: dot com slash Boy of files. That's Foia Files. To

960
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 3: get every episode early on Apple Podcasts. Become a Bloomberg

961
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 3: dot com subscriber today. Check out our special intro offer

962
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 3: right now at Bloomberg dot com slash Podcast offer or

963
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 3: click the link In the show notes, you'll also unlock

964
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 3: deep reporting data and analysis from reporters around the world.

965
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: We'll see you again next Tuesday. I thought you said

966
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 2: I was a right spidery. You are a right spider