WEBVTT - From the Vault: Finite and Infinite Games 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:07.960 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:10.760 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And of course 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:13.560 it's another Vault day. We're going into the vault, this 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:16.640 time to explore the episode we did uh a little 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:21.759 over a year ago. Um mayen about finite and infinite games. 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:24.599 It was about this interesting little philosophy book that I 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:27.080 read that that had this great central metaphor that I 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:30.160 still keep thinking about all the time. That's a finite game. 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:32.760 That's an infinite game. Yeah, yeah, based on the word 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.559 bout of American scholar James P. Cars And indeed, this 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:38.080 is one of those things that it's it's kind of 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:42.040 a simple concept, but but once you get in your head, yeah, 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:44.080 you end up applying it to just about everything in 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:47.080 your life. Yeah. You kind of see elements of it 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:49.319 all over the place, and it's just really helpful and 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:52.839 I don't know, helpful and categorizing the whole world like 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:55.280 you should be doing. All right, well, let's do it. 0:00:55.360 --> 0:01:01.600 Let's jump in and play the game. Welcome to Stuff 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:10.600 to Blow your Mind from how stuff works dot com. Hey, 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:12.600 welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.040 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. You know, Joe. I 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.440 bring up the books of Ian M. Banks a lot 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:21.319 on the podcast um and and generally because you know, 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:23.720 these are really good books that that tie on a 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:28.720 number of different uh uh, sci fi, psychological, you name 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:31.840 it topics. They're they're they're rich with stuff to blow 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.479 your mind content. Can I confess that I've considered reading 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:38.000 them but have actually been hesitant because I want you 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:40.600 to be able to keep explaining m banks books to 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:43.679 me with me actually not knowing them in advance. Okay, well, 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:46.720 then hopefully that's what's gonna happen right now. Because as 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.280 we were researching the topic for today, I was reminded 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:55.240 of his nine book, The Player of Games. Okay, so 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:57.400 this is a book that concerns the culture, which is 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:01.240 of course an instellar, interstellar post scarce de civilization in 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:04.960 which AI minds do all or most of the heavy 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:07.480 lifting and humans live in a kind of uh uh, 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.080 you know, utopian anarchy. Okay, So this is not the 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.680 book that Tron was based on, No, no, but but 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:17.440 it is a wonderful treatment of games. Now, the people 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:19.399 in the culture, they don't really have to do much 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.640 beyond just enjoy life, and our protagonist in this particular book, 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:27.679 GGA does this by playing in and excelling at a 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:31.800 multitude of card and board games and other related games. Yeah. 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.680 So this is often the positive vision of the sort 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.639 of post singularity future, right most A lot of the 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:39.840 visions that you get in science fiction are very negative, 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:42.880 I guess because negative plots are more interesting to play with. 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.640 But so this says, basically, you know, once humans aren't 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:50.160 really needed to create the wealth that sustained society anymore, 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:52.360 you can actually just do what you want. You can 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.640 be creative, you can have fun, and that's what life is. Yeah, 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:57.840 and uh or am I off base? Is that not 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:01.600 how it is? Um? In culture? It is, but with 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:05.480 lots of dark caveats. Okay. Now, some members of the 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:09.440 culture choose to involve themselves in matters of greater importance, 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:13.120 such as service in Special Circumstances, which deals with pending 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:17.880 and emergent threats to the culture uh and general interplanetary stability. 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:21.520 And they recruit Gurga and send him to the Empire 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:25.480 of Azad uh to to master and play the game 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.239 of Azad which is a complex game that consists of 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:31.560 various sub games that serves as the basic system of 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:36.040 all political and social order in the Empire of Azad. Okay, 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:38.520 So what is is it? What like a big board 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:42.160 game or something. It's it's like a board game built 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:44.360 out of board games. It's a kind of like imagine 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.520 a board game that is just the center of all culture. 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.120 Like I guess it's kind of hard to to to 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:52.960 pick out something in like imagine if the Bible in 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:57.440 say medieval Europe, if the Bible were a board game instead, 0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.840 if it was like Settlers of Ghatan instead of the 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.640 Bible at the center of this, uh, this sort of 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:06.600 Catholic world. And on top of that it was not 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.360 just settlers of good time, but are ridiculously complex settlers. 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.720 You have to devote your entire life to playing it. 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:16.960 So a labyrinthine game that contains pronouncements of authority that 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.039 is intermingled with government. Yes, And so they want they 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:23.200 apparently need to send him there because they want to 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:26.320 disrupt as odd and topple its current systems and bring 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:30.800 about something more in line with culture values. Uh. And 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.600 and also because the the the the empire of his 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:36.680 they also are a very brutal people given to spectacles 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.520 of fatal violence. So it's a great book and one 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.400 I always recommend as a starting point for the culture 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:45.919 and banks in general. But instant interesting how we see 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:49.039 the mixture of different games here. So we see the 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.960 contained and restricted board and card games within Gurga's life, 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.880 so those are like normal games. We see the open 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.640 ended game of Gurga's life, in which he essentially tries 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.640 to fill a lengthy trans human lifetime with pleasure and meaning. 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:08.200 We have the complex but ultimately contained game of as Odd. 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:12.039 We have the intricate game of special circumstances, various plots 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:15.240 and operations. We have the greater game that's played by 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.560 these minds that are operating, you know, on scales beyond 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:22.160 anything that human intelligence can can really comprehend. And then 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:27.320 we have the looming possibility of the game of interplanetary war. Yeah, 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:32.479 it's interesting the way games so readily serve as metaphors 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:36.120 for almost any kind of human endeavor or for life itself. Right, 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.520 a game, in its more narrow definition tends to be 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.840 a thing with rules that is done for recreation or 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.200 for fun. And yet you can clearly see how that 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:50.680 concept of a game gets mapped onto essentially anything humans 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:53.520 do whatever you're doing right now, in one way or another, 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.160 can be thought of as a game. I'm just gonna 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:59.000 read one quick quote from from the player of Games 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.839 just to give everyone taste. This is the story of 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.400 a man who went far away for a long time 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.000 just to play a game. The man is a game 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.159 player called Gurga. The story starts with a battle that 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.800 is not a battle and ends with a game that 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:17.200 is not a game. And you have to read the 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:20.560 book to get the rest. But but I, like I said, 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:22.720 I couldn't help but think of this book in uh 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:26.120 in comparison to the topic we're discussing today. Right, So 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.840 today we're gonna be talking about an interesting little philosophy 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:32.440 book that I read within the past couple of weeks 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.440 by an American scholar named James P. Cars, who for 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.440 more than thirty years was a professor of the history 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.560 and literature of religion at New York University. Now, this 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:46.000 book isn't directly about religion, though it addresses religion and 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:49.520 some of its parts. It's it's a short little philosophy book, 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:53.359 and it's called Finite and Infinite Games, a vision of 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:56.680 Life as Play and Possibility. And it was published in 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:00.640 ninety six from Free Press. Now, over years, I've read 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.680 several writers and thinkers who I admire in one way 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.920 or another mentioned this book as influential on their thinking, 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:09.640 and I recently decided to check it out. And ever 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.440 since I started reading it, I have been captivated by 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:15.840 the idea at the core of this book. And really, 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:18.920 the idea is just a very interesting metaphor. It's not 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:22.560 a scientific book. It's not a book really I think 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:27.240 that is necessary for explaining anything important about how things are. 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:31.120 But it's a very interesting metaphorical framework for how to 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:33.960 look at the behavior of beings like you and me 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.000 using this metaphor of play right. And I also want 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.080 to drive home that it's it's not it's it's rather 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:40.720 different from a lot of the books we've discussed on 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:43.640 the show because it's not filled with a bunch of, 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:48.160 you know, descriptions of various histories or mythologies or other 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:53.119 philosophical topics. It's a very it's a very easily consumed book. Um. 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:55.640 I don't want to criticism I don't I don't want 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.160 to relegate it to the bathroom. But this is a 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:00.640 book that you could keep in the bathroom. Him it's 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:03.200 very much a casual read. Yeah, and you you can 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:05.320 pick up any part of it, any page of it. 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:07.520 Usually there will be a short section that you could 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.840 read that that will, you know, make you think about things, 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:14.400 that's kind of interesting and provocative. If it were kept 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:16.320 by a toilet, I would call it a butt number. 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.640 You know the button numbers button number books. No, I've 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.880 never heard this terminol. They're the ones that if you 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:24.720 keep them by the toilet, they're going to keep people 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:26.840 on the toilet a little bit too long because you'd 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.360 get interested interesting. I've I've never heard them described as such. 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:32.080 I might have made that up. I'm not sure. I 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.560 can't remember if I got that from the culture or 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:37.079 from my own brain. Well, now it's out there so 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:40.360 everyone can use it. Okay, So what is this this 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.920 core idea that James P. Cars talks about in his book. 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:47.679 The main idea is that when we do things, we're playing, 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.600 and the things we do are games, and Cars's main 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:53.880 move in this book is to separate the games we 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:58.360 play into two major types, finite and infinite. It's there 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:01.280 in the title Finite and Infinite Games and a quote 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.000 from the opening of the book. Quote there are at 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:07.280 least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:10.600 the other infinite. A finite game is played for the 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:13.960 purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:18.520 continuing the play. Okay, In fact, I could say that 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:21.439 you could skip reading the rest of the book and 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:24.120 just contemplate that sentence and get a lot of the 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.959 same value. For instance, one example that probably comes to 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:28.719 a lot of people's minds is that it's perhaps the 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:32.920 difference between playing tennis and keeping score and just batting 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.400 the ball around, right, I mean that could potentially be 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:37.960 a good example where one is played with a finite 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.520 definite outcome in mind, where the other is played to 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.040 see how long play can go on. Well, let's get 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:45.600 into a little bit. Let's flesh out the core concept here. 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.560 Let's look at a few of the characteristics that Car 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.240 slays out that that he thinks go along with the 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.800 difference between a finite game and an infinite game. So 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:56.640 what are the characteristics of finite and infinite games in 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.280 Cars's mind? Alright, So a finite game must come to 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:03.880 an end when a player or a group of players win. Now, 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:06.640 what constitutes winning might be spelled out in some set 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.439 of external rules or or you know, it depend on 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.600 the judgment of a referee. But ultimately the only thing 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.040 that can decide whether the game has been one is 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.000 the players agreeing that, hey, the game is over in 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:20.320 this person one or this team one. Right. So if 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:23.079 the players don't agree the game is over in practice, 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.480 it is in fact not over right, It ain't over yet. 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.640 And if the players agree the game is over in practice, 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.920 they can't continue playing sort of by definition, maybe they 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:35.840 could continue some activity, but they're no longer really playing 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.040 the same game they were if they all think it's over, right. 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:41.960 And then also there are temporal boundaries in place here. 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.320 Time matters. Do you know when your game began? Do 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:49.040 you care? If your answers are yes, then your game 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:51.600 is finite. And then, of course the game again is 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:54.800 over is if someone wins, right. And by contrast, the 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:58.400 purpose of an infinite game is not to win, but 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.000 to prevent the game from coming to an end. And 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:04.559 thus there really is no decisive way to win, except 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:09.000 maybe by indefinitely continuing play. Yes, and he says quote, 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:12.320 there is no finite game unless the players freely choose 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.440 to play it. No one can play who is forced 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:17.960 to play now. One of the things he talks about 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.320 with a finite game is that finite games need to 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:25.400 have players agree on the rules before play starts. Right. 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:28.000 If you've not agreed on the rules and advance, or 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:31.160 players try to change the rules after play begins, the 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:34.280 legitimacy of the outcome could be in danger. Players might 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.320 not accept the outcome, they might not accept the winner. 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:42.120 But by contrast, infinite games, by necessity, tend to evolve 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:46.359 over time. Sometimes you change the rules, the teams, the players, 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.760 the play space so that play can continue and can 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:54.520 get around obstacles that would impede play. Carstwrights quote, finite 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:59.319 players play within boundaries. Infinite players play with boundaries, and 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:03.400 finite game has encourage players to create predictability and discourage surprise. 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:07.320 So in an infinite game, usually the very purpose is 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:10.280 to be surprised, right, Because if you're playing a finite game, 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.520 you want to win. What gets in the way of 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:16.040 you winning you not expecting what comes next, right, Right, 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:18.640 You want to control the conditions of the game when 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.240 you're trying to win. When you're playing an infinite game, 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.280 where the purpose is not to bring it to an end, 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.760 but to let it go on forever. You always want 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.839 there there to be the potential for variation, right, Yeah, 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.480 it's I think about role playing games a lot with this, 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.319 Like playing Dungeons and Dragons. It's not a situation where 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:36.760 the players are necessarily playing against each other, though there 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:39.880 are games that play out like that. It should not, be, 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.280 in my opinion, a situation where the dungeon master is 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.640 playing against the players. Uh. Instead, it should be, in 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.720 my mind, uh, a collective storytelling effort by the players 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.000 and the dungeon master. And therefore, it's not about which 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:56.640 which a choice or which which role of the dice 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:58.719 is going to hurt the other side the most. It's 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:03.000 about what is going to create the most engaging situation. 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:05.040 I want to come back to your D and D 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:07.720 example in a bit, because that goes along with something 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.760 I think I've observed when when I've been thinking about 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.840 finite and infinite games. One more characteristic I want to 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.280 mention before I move on to an example is that 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:21.480 Car says finite games tend to engender and attitude of seriousness, focus, 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:25.800 and single mindedness within the players. Meanwhile, infinite games tend 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:30.080 to encourage a spirit of playfulness, exploration and curiosity quote. 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.800 Whoever must play cannot play well. That, of course, he says, 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.520 applies to both types of games. Right. You might not 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.000 like the fact that you say, have to earn money 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:40.959 to make a living or have to eat in order 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.520 to survive, but you must agree to play that game 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.760 or you're not playing right now. Before we consider dungeons 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:51.120 and dragons or dungeons and dragons at gunpoint any further, 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:54.680 we should probably turn to a more you know, classically 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:58.560 established game as a model for this for this subject, 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.880 sure well to understand the simplest version of the difference 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:04.960 I think between a finite game in an infinite game, 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:09.960 consider a game of chess versus the game of chess. So, 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:13.160 in a single game of chess, a player's goal is 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:16.720 to defeat her opponent and become the winner. The game 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.560 of chess doesn't have a set number of players who 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.000 play against each other and want to win over another. 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:26.360 It's it's an abstract space that allows individual games to 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.400 keep on happening. Within it, it goes on forever. It 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.600 could have infinitely many finite games within it. You can 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.040 win a game of chess, but you can't win the 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:39.080 game of chess. It exists, so people can keep playing it. Now. 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:41.200 I just want to throw in a couple of quick 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.200 facts from a two thousand ten Popular Science article by 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:50.120 Natalie Wolchover in which she quotes computer scientists Jonathan Schaefer, 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:52.880 who points out that quote, the possible number of chess 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:55.760 games is so huge that no one will ever invest 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:58.680 the effort to calculate the exact number. Uh. And in 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:00.920 the article she also points out there, while there are 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.040 only so many opening moves a player can make, the 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:08.040 possibilities just quickly spiral out of control with each subsequent move. 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:12.400 So in a sense, there are almost an infinite I guess, 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:16.360 maybe not an actually infinite, but but a seemingly infinite 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.680 number of chess games that could be played. But even 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:21.920 that doesn't in fact matter, because you could say that 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.720 tic tac toe, which has a much smaller number of 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.280 possible games, is in a sense an infinite game. If 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:30.600 you're talking about the game of tic tac toes, you 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:33.080 can't win the game. You could win a game that 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.640 you play against somebody, right. In fact, there's there's no 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.360 excuse not to win a game if you play first. Now, 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.240 wait a minute, I can't remember what is that solved 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.800 in the first player? Can always win at tic tac toe? 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:47.280 Or can you always force a draw? I don't know. 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.800 Playing against a child really kind of screws things up 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.200 for me because I've had to throw games of Tic 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:55.760 tac toe, uh, to the point where I don't remember 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.720 how it really works because I'm trying to win the 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:03.680 infinite game of parenting. But that's a that's a bad strategy. 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.920 You need to teach him the pain of losing. Well, yeah, 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:11.400 but I want to do that with games that are fun. Well, 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:13.040 maybe we should take a quick break and then when 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.080 we come back, we can talk a little bit more 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:18.120 about why we think this idea of finite and infinite 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:24.080 games is interesting and some more ways that can be applied. Alright, 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:26.160 we're back, so let's let's get do some some more 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:29.680 examples here. What are some examples of finite games? Okay, well, 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.720 we're totally surrounded by finite games, and we're just you know, 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.920 they make up the bulk of everyday endeavor. Right, competition 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:41.120 among co workers for a single available promotion, or among 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.280 job candidates for a single position at a company, that's 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:46.640 a finite game, right, You there's an end that you 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.080 want to win. You want to be the person who 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.600 gets that position, and you're competing for it. Another example 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.040 would be an actual game, like a game of football. 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.040 You're you're trying to win the game. Okay, yeah, and 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.360 it has a it has a time even though time 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:01.920 See I don't know much about football, but it does 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:06.080 seem like time works differently in football because the the 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.280 time on the ticker there does not equal the the 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:13.919 exact uh length of the game. Well, whatever the length is, 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.760 there are boundaries. I mean, you could have a game 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.080 that doesn't have a necessary time limit on it, but 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.600 it starts at a certain time and you know how 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:25.399 the ending is decided, right. I'm not sure what happens 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.520 in football if you don't have a winner, Like if 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:29.480 you're just tied and you just keep going and you 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:31.640 can't win, do they do they just call it a draw? 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.560 Or do they play until somebody wins? Oh? Yeah, because 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:35.240 you have other games where you have sudden death over 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:38.760 times or a draw is is permittable. I I am 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.000 not sure we're showing how cool we are here knowing 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.760 all about football. Well that our football fan listeners will 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:48.040 have to chime in. Okay, So Another clearly finite game 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.399 would be a chase, an individual chase between predator and prey. 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:55.000 Right there, there is somehow going to be a decisive conclusion. 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:57.320 Either the predator might get a meal and the prey 0:17:57.400 --> 0:17:59.840 will die, or maybe the prey will escape and survive 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:01.960 and the predator will lose and go hungry, and then 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:05.360 there can be all kinds of sort of ranked intermediate outcomes, 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:07.960 but there will be an outcome, right yeah. And that's 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.120 the one thing that's important keep in mind with the 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:12.879 infinite versus finite games is you can kind of nitpick 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:15.679 a lot of these. You can say, well, well, you 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:17.520 know what if they both did the predator and pray 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.840 both die, that's finite. Yeah, I mean it's it's still finite. 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.159 But yeah, you have to the mind can help. But 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:26.920 I said, I think pick at the distinction of finite 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:28.680 and infinite, and you can kind of go down a 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.359 rabbit hole with any of these examples. In addition to 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.520 predator and pray competition, of course, the other great competition 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:38.399 of the natural world is mating. Oh sure, this is 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.040 a finite game though, mating, and I would say mating 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:44.680 and procreation itself is an infinite game, right, it doesn't 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.919 have a finite outcome. Reproduction is something that seems to 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:51.520 be designed to go on as long as it can 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.879 and just keep the game going. But say in a 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.320 more finite contest between two stags fighting for the right 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:00.560 to mate with a female in the area, there is 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:02.360 a winner and a loser. The winner gets to make 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:04.960 there's no way to win the game of reproduction. On 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:07.600 the other hand, it's played so that play may continue 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:11.520 indefinitely down the generations. Yeah, but but but in terms 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:15.800 of the actual encounter, Uh, it's gonna end. Attenborough is 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:17.399 going to tell you when it's over, and then you're 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.920 gonna go to the next segment on the Nature documentary. Now, 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:24.560 you actually pointed out something interesting about how it can 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:27.720 get weird when you you think a game is one type, 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.000 but then you can nitpick about ways that it could 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.320 be the other type. One thing is that wars very 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:37.080 often get presented as a finite game. Right there, there 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:40.040 is a goal to achieve, we will win over the enemy. 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:42.720 But it's interesting to consider the idea of war as 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:45.480 an infinite game, as imagined by George Orwell in nine 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.880 four You know, in Orwell's Dystopia in that novel, war 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.160 is not fought for the purpose of ultimately winning over 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:56.560 the enemy and achieving some finite goal. The purpose of war, 0:19:56.920 --> 0:19:59.480 you know, it's not like to control territory for the 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:02.879 long haul. In the end, it is to be continuously 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.320 at war, to fight continuously for political purposes. And in 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:08.720 this circumstance, the purpose of war is not to win, 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.280 but to be at war. And in the sense, this 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.800 makes war an infinite game. Of course, you know, many 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.080 critics have argued that there are elements of this in 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:20.000 the rationale for some real wars taking place in the 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.680 real world. Now I've seen this example brought up before, 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:28.000 specifically by motivational speaker A Simon Cynic who used the 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:32.320 Vietnam War as an example of of an infinite war. 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:35.600 But but I kind of want to go with a different, 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.439 broader example, just to to lay it out. So in 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:42.480 any story that pits besiegers against the besieged, and you know, 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:46.480 in terms of like an army that is besieging a fortress, uh, 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.320 there are two games at play, So you can argue 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:51.960 that the besiegers and attackers are playing a finite game. 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:55.320 They are playing to take the castle. Their game ends 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:59.800 when they actually conquer Troy or Gondor or gall got Or. 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:03.920 But the besiegers that offenders, their game is more infinite. 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:06.520 Their game is survival. So they don't have to conquer 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:09.320 their enemy. They just have to avoid being conquered. They 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:13.280 have to survive. Well, yeah, that's interesting, because Cars ultimately says, 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:15.119 though I think this sort of undercut some of the 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:18.520 interesting parts of his metaphor. He says in the very 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.960