1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And of course 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: it's another Vault day. We're going into the vault, this 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: time to explore the episode we did uh a little 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: over a year ago. Um mayen about finite and infinite games. 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: It was about this interesting little philosophy book that I 7 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: read that that had this great central metaphor that I 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: still keep thinking about all the time. That's a finite game. 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: That's an infinite game. Yeah, yeah, based on the word 10 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: bout of American scholar James P. Cars And indeed, this 11 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: is one of those things that it's it's kind of 12 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: a simple concept, but but once you get in your head, yeah, 13 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: you end up applying it to just about everything in 14 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: your life. Yeah. You kind of see elements of it 15 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,319 Speaker 1: all over the place, and it's just really helpful and 16 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: I don't know, helpful and categorizing the whole world like 17 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: you should be doing. All right, well, let's do it. 18 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: Let's jump in and play the game. Welcome to Stuff 19 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind from how stuff works dot com. Hey, 20 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is 21 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. You know, Joe. I 22 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: bring up the books of Ian M. Banks a lot 23 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: on the podcast um and and generally because you know, 24 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: these are really good books that that tie on a 25 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: number of different uh uh, sci fi, psychological, you name 26 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: it topics. They're they're they're rich with stuff to blow 27 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 1: your mind content. Can I confess that I've considered reading 28 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: them but have actually been hesitant because I want you 29 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: to be able to keep explaining m banks books to 30 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: me with me actually not knowing them in advance. Okay, well, 31 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: then hopefully that's what's gonna happen right now. Because as 32 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: we were researching the topic for today, I was reminded 33 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: of his nine book, The Player of Games. Okay, so 34 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: this is a book that concerns the culture, which is 35 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: of course an instellar, interstellar post scarce de civilization in 36 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: which AI minds do all or most of the heavy 37 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: lifting and humans live in a kind of uh uh, 38 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, utopian anarchy. Okay, So this is not the 39 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: book that Tron was based on, No, no, but but 40 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: it is a wonderful treatment of games. Now, the people 41 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,399 Speaker 1: in the culture, they don't really have to do much 42 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: beyond just enjoy life, and our protagonist in this particular book, 43 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,679 Speaker 1: GGA does this by playing in and excelling at a 44 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: multitude of card and board games and other related games. Yeah. 45 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: So this is often the positive vision of the sort 46 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 1: of post singularity future, right most A lot of the 47 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: visions that you get in science fiction are very negative, 48 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: I guess because negative plots are more interesting to play with. 49 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: But so this says, basically, you know, once humans aren't 50 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: really needed to create the wealth that sustained society anymore, 51 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: you can actually just do what you want. You can 52 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: be creative, you can have fun, and that's what life is. Yeah, 53 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: and uh or am I off base? Is that not 54 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: how it is? Um? In culture? It is, but with 55 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: lots of dark caveats. Okay. Now, some members of the 56 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: culture choose to involve themselves in matters of greater importance, 57 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: such as service in Special Circumstances, which deals with pending 58 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: and emergent threats to the culture uh and general interplanetary stability. 59 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: And they recruit Gurga and send him to the Empire 60 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: of Azad uh to to master and play the game 61 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,239 Speaker 1: of Azad which is a complex game that consists of 62 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: various sub games that serves as the basic system of 63 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: all political and social order in the Empire of Azad. Okay, 64 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: So what is is it? What like a big board 65 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: game or something. It's it's like a board game built 66 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: out of board games. It's a kind of like imagine 67 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: a board game that is just the center of all culture. 68 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: Like I guess it's kind of hard to to to 69 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: pick out something in like imagine if the Bible in 70 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: say medieval Europe, if the Bible were a board game instead, 71 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: if it was like Settlers of Ghatan instead of the 72 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: Bible at the center of this, uh, this sort of 73 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: Catholic world. And on top of that it was not 74 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: just settlers of good time, but are ridiculously complex settlers. 75 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: You have to devote your entire life to playing it. 76 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: So a labyrinthine game that contains pronouncements of authority that 77 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: is intermingled with government. Yes, And so they want they 78 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: apparently need to send him there because they want to 79 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: disrupt as odd and topple its current systems and bring 80 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: about something more in line with culture values. Uh. And 81 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: and also because the the the the empire of his 82 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: they also are a very brutal people given to spectacles 83 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: of fatal violence. So it's a great book and one 84 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: I always recommend as a starting point for the culture 85 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: and banks in general. But instant interesting how we see 86 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: the mixture of different games here. So we see the 87 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: contained and restricted board and card games within Gurga's life, 88 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: so those are like normal games. We see the open 89 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: ended game of Gurga's life, in which he essentially tries 90 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: to fill a lengthy trans human lifetime with pleasure and meaning. 91 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: We have the complex but ultimately contained game of as Odd. 92 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: We have the intricate game of special circumstances, various plots 93 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: and operations. We have the greater game that's played by 94 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: these minds that are operating, you know, on scales beyond 95 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: anything that human intelligence can can really comprehend. And then 96 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: we have the looming possibility of the game of interplanetary war. Yeah, 97 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: it's interesting the way games so readily serve as metaphors 98 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: for almost any kind of human endeavor or for life itself. Right, 99 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: a game, in its more narrow definition tends to be 100 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: a thing with rules that is done for recreation or 101 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: for fun. And yet you can clearly see how that 102 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: concept of a game gets mapped onto essentially anything humans 103 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: do whatever you're doing right now, in one way or another, 104 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: can be thought of as a game. I'm just gonna 105 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: read one quick quote from from the player of Games 106 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: just to give everyone taste. This is the story of 107 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: a man who went far away for a long time 108 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: just to play a game. The man is a game 109 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: player called Gurga. The story starts with a battle that 110 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: is not a battle and ends with a game that 111 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: is not a game. And you have to read the 112 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: book to get the rest. But but I, like I said, 113 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: I couldn't help but think of this book in uh 114 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: in comparison to the topic we're discussing today. Right, So 115 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: today we're gonna be talking about an interesting little philosophy 116 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: book that I read within the past couple of weeks 117 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: by an American scholar named James P. Cars, who for 118 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: more than thirty years was a professor of the history 119 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: and literature of religion at New York University. Now, this 120 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: book isn't directly about religion, though it addresses religion and 121 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: some of its parts. It's it's a short little philosophy book, 122 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 1: and it's called Finite and Infinite Games, a vision of 123 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: Life as Play and Possibility. And it was published in 124 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: ninety six from Free Press. Now, over years, I've read 125 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: several writers and thinkers who I admire in one way 126 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: or another mentioned this book as influential on their thinking, 127 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: and I recently decided to check it out. And ever 128 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: since I started reading it, I have been captivated by 129 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: the idea at the core of this book. And really, 130 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: the idea is just a very interesting metaphor. It's not 131 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: a scientific book. It's not a book really I think 132 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: that is necessary for explaining anything important about how things are. 133 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: But it's a very interesting metaphorical framework for how to 134 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: look at the behavior of beings like you and me 135 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: using this metaphor of play right. And I also want 136 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: to drive home that it's it's not it's it's rather 137 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: different from a lot of the books we've discussed on 138 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: the show because it's not filled with a bunch of, 139 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: you know, descriptions of various histories or mythologies or other 140 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:53,119 Speaker 1: philosophical topics. It's a very it's a very easily consumed book. Um. 141 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: I don't want to criticism I don't I don't want 142 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: to relegate it to the bathroom. But this is a 143 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: book that you could keep in the bathroom. Him it's 144 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: very much a casual read. Yeah, and you you can 145 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: pick up any part of it, any page of it. 146 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: Usually there will be a short section that you could 147 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: read that that will, you know, make you think about things, 148 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: that's kind of interesting and provocative. If it were kept 149 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: by a toilet, I would call it a butt number. 150 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: You know the button numbers button number books. No, I've 151 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: never heard this terminol. They're the ones that if you 152 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: keep them by the toilet, they're going to keep people 153 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: on the toilet a little bit too long because you'd 154 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: get interested interesting. I've I've never heard them described as such. 155 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: I might have made that up. I'm not sure. I 156 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: can't remember if I got that from the culture or 157 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 1: from my own brain. Well, now it's out there so 158 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: everyone can use it. Okay, So what is this this 159 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: core idea that James P. Cars talks about in his book. 160 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: The main idea is that when we do things, we're playing, 161 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: and the things we do are games, and Cars's main 162 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: move in this book is to separate the games we 163 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: play into two major types, finite and infinite. It's there 164 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: in the title Finite and Infinite Games and a quote 165 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: from the opening of the book. Quote there are at 166 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, 167 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: the other infinite. A finite game is played for the 168 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of 169 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: continuing the play. Okay, In fact, I could say that 170 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 1: you could skip reading the rest of the book and 171 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: just contemplate that sentence and get a lot of the 172 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 1: same value. For instance, one example that probably comes to 173 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:28,719 Speaker 1: a lot of people's minds is that it's perhaps the 174 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: difference between playing tennis and keeping score and just batting 175 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: the ball around, right, I mean that could potentially be 176 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: a good example where one is played with a finite 177 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: definite outcome in mind, where the other is played to 178 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: see how long play can go on. Well, let's get 179 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: into a little bit. Let's flesh out the core concept here. 180 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: Let's look at a few of the characteristics that Car 181 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: slays out that that he thinks go along with the 182 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: difference between a finite game and an infinite game. So 183 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: what are the characteristics of finite and infinite games in 184 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: Cars's mind? Alright, So a finite game must come to 185 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: an end when a player or a group of players win. Now, 186 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: what constitutes winning might be spelled out in some set 187 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: of external rules or or you know, it depend on 188 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: the judgment of a referee. But ultimately the only thing 189 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: that can decide whether the game has been one is 190 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: the players agreeing that, hey, the game is over in 191 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: this person one or this team one. Right. So if 192 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 1: the players don't agree the game is over in practice, 193 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: it is in fact not over right, It ain't over yet. 194 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: And if the players agree the game is over in practice, 195 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: they can't continue playing sort of by definition, maybe they 196 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: could continue some activity, but they're no longer really playing 197 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: the same game they were if they all think it's over, right. 198 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: And then also there are temporal boundaries in place here. 199 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: Time matters. Do you know when your game began? Do 200 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: you care? If your answers are yes, then your game 201 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: is finite. And then, of course the game again is 202 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: over is if someone wins, right. And by contrast, the 203 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: purpose of an infinite game is not to win, but 204 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: to prevent the game from coming to an end. And 205 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 1: thus there really is no decisive way to win, except 206 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: maybe by indefinitely continuing play. Yes, and he says quote, 207 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: there is no finite game unless the players freely choose 208 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: to play it. No one can play who is forced 209 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: to play now. One of the things he talks about 210 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: with a finite game is that finite games need to 211 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: have players agree on the rules before play starts. Right. 212 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: If you've not agreed on the rules and advance, or 213 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: players try to change the rules after play begins, the 214 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: legitimacy of the outcome could be in danger. Players might 215 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: not accept the outcome, they might not accept the winner. 216 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: But by contrast, infinite games, by necessity, tend to evolve 217 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,359 Speaker 1: over time. Sometimes you change the rules, the teams, the players, 218 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: the play space so that play can continue and can 219 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: get around obstacles that would impede play. Carstwrights quote, finite 220 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: players play within boundaries. Infinite players play with boundaries, and 221 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: finite game has encourage players to create predictability and discourage surprise. 222 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: So in an infinite game, usually the very purpose is 223 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: to be surprised, right, Because if you're playing a finite game, 224 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: you want to win. What gets in the way of 225 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: you winning you not expecting what comes next, right, Right, 226 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: You want to control the conditions of the game when 227 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: you're trying to win. When you're playing an infinite game, 228 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: where the purpose is not to bring it to an end, 229 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: but to let it go on forever. You always want 230 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: there there to be the potential for variation, right, Yeah, 231 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: it's I think about role playing games a lot with this, 232 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: Like playing Dungeons and Dragons. It's not a situation where 233 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: the players are necessarily playing against each other, though there 234 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: are games that play out like that. It should not, be, 235 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: in my opinion, a situation where the dungeon master is 236 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: playing against the players. Uh. Instead, it should be, in 237 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: my mind, uh, a collective storytelling effort by the players 238 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: and the dungeon master. And therefore, it's not about which 239 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: which a choice or which which role of the dice 240 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 1: is going to hurt the other side the most. It's 241 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: about what is going to create the most engaging situation. 242 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: I want to come back to your D and D 243 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: example in a bit, because that goes along with something 244 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: I think I've observed when when I've been thinking about 245 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: finite and infinite games. One more characteristic I want to 246 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: mention before I move on to an example is that 247 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: Car says finite games tend to engender and attitude of seriousness, focus, 248 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: and single mindedness within the players. Meanwhile, infinite games tend 249 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: to encourage a spirit of playfulness, exploration and curiosity quote. 250 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: Whoever must play cannot play well. That, of course, he says, 251 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: applies to both types of games. Right. You might not 252 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: like the fact that you say, have to earn money 253 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 1: to make a living or have to eat in order 254 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: to survive, but you must agree to play that game 255 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: or you're not playing right now. Before we consider dungeons 256 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: and dragons or dungeons and dragons at gunpoint any further, 257 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: we should probably turn to a more you know, classically 258 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: established game as a model for this for this subject, 259 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: sure well to understand the simplest version of the difference 260 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: I think between a finite game in an infinite game, 261 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: consider a game of chess versus the game of chess. So, 262 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: in a single game of chess, a player's goal is 263 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: to defeat her opponent and become the winner. The game 264 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: of chess doesn't have a set number of players who 265 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: play against each other and want to win over another. 266 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: It's it's an abstract space that allows individual games to 267 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: keep on happening. Within it, it goes on forever. It 268 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: could have infinitely many finite games within it. You can 269 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: win a game of chess, but you can't win the 270 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: game of chess. It exists, so people can keep playing it. Now. 271 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: I just want to throw in a couple of quick 272 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: facts from a two thousand ten Popular Science article by 273 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: Natalie Wolchover in which she quotes computer scientists Jonathan Schaefer, 274 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: who points out that quote, the possible number of chess 275 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: games is so huge that no one will ever invest 276 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: the effort to calculate the exact number. Uh. And in 277 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: the article she also points out there, while there are 278 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: only so many opening moves a player can make, the 279 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: possibilities just quickly spiral out of control with each subsequent move. 280 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: So in a sense, there are almost an infinite I guess, 281 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: maybe not an actually infinite, but but a seemingly infinite 282 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: number of chess games that could be played. But even 283 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: that doesn't in fact matter, because you could say that 284 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: tic tac toe, which has a much smaller number of 285 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: possible games, is in a sense an infinite game. If 286 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: you're talking about the game of tic tac toes, you 287 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: can't win the game. You could win a game that 288 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: you play against somebody, right. In fact, there's there's no 289 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: excuse not to win a game if you play first. Now, 290 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: wait a minute, I can't remember what is that solved 291 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: in the first player? Can always win at tic tac toe? 292 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: Or can you always force a draw? I don't know. 293 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: Playing against a child really kind of screws things up 294 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: for me because I've had to throw games of Tic 295 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: tac toe, uh, to the point where I don't remember 296 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: how it really works because I'm trying to win the 297 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: infinite game of parenting. But that's a that's a bad strategy. 298 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: You need to teach him the pain of losing. Well, yeah, 299 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: but I want to do that with games that are fun. Well, 300 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: maybe we should take a quick break and then when 301 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: we come back, we can talk a little bit more 302 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: about why we think this idea of finite and infinite 303 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: games is interesting and some more ways that can be applied. Alright, 304 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: we're back, so let's let's get do some some more 305 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: examples here. What are some examples of finite games? Okay, well, 306 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: we're totally surrounded by finite games, and we're just you know, 307 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: they make up the bulk of everyday endeavor. Right, competition 308 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: among co workers for a single available promotion, or among 309 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: job candidates for a single position at a company, that's 310 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: a finite game, right, You there's an end that you 311 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: want to win. You want to be the person who 312 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: gets that position, and you're competing for it. Another example 313 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: would be an actual game, like a game of football. 314 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: You're you're trying to win the game. Okay, yeah, and 315 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: it has a it has a time even though time 316 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: See I don't know much about football, but it does 317 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: seem like time works differently in football because the the 318 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: time on the ticker there does not equal the the 319 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: exact uh length of the game. Well, whatever the length is, 320 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: there are boundaries. I mean, you could have a game 321 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: that doesn't have a necessary time limit on it, but 322 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: it starts at a certain time and you know how 323 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: the ending is decided, right. I'm not sure what happens 324 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: in football if you don't have a winner, Like if 325 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: you're just tied and you just keep going and you 326 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: can't win, do they do they just call it a draw? 327 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: Or do they play until somebody wins? Oh? Yeah, because 328 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: you have other games where you have sudden death over 329 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: times or a draw is is permittable. I I am 330 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: not sure we're showing how cool we are here knowing 331 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: all about football. Well that our football fan listeners will 332 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: have to chime in. Okay, So Another clearly finite game 333 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: would be a chase, an individual chase between predator and prey. 334 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: Right there, there is somehow going to be a decisive conclusion. 335 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: Either the predator might get a meal and the prey 336 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: will die, or maybe the prey will escape and survive 337 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: and the predator will lose and go hungry, and then 338 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,360 Speaker 1: there can be all kinds of sort of ranked intermediate outcomes, 339 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: but there will be an outcome, right yeah. And that's 340 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: the one thing that's important keep in mind with the 341 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: infinite versus finite games is you can kind of nitpick 342 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: a lot of these. You can say, well, well, you 343 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: know what if they both did the predator and pray 344 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: both die, that's finite. Yeah, I mean it's it's still finite. 345 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: But yeah, you have to the mind can help. But 346 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: I said, I think pick at the distinction of finite 347 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: and infinite, and you can kind of go down a 348 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: rabbit hole with any of these examples. In addition to 349 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: predator and pray competition, of course, the other great competition 350 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: of the natural world is mating. Oh sure, this is 351 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: a finite game though, mating, and I would say mating 352 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: and procreation itself is an infinite game, right, it doesn't 353 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 1: have a finite outcome. Reproduction is something that seems to 354 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: be designed to go on as long as it can 355 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: and just keep the game going. But say in a 356 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: more finite contest between two stags fighting for the right 357 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: to mate with a female in the area, there is 358 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: a winner and a loser. The winner gets to make 359 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: there's no way to win the game of reproduction. On 360 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: the other hand, it's played so that play may continue 361 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: indefinitely down the generations. Yeah, but but but in terms 362 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: of the actual encounter, Uh, it's gonna end. Attenborough is 363 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: going to tell you when it's over, and then you're 364 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: gonna go to the next segment on the Nature documentary. Now, 365 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: you actually pointed out something interesting about how it can 366 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: get weird when you you think a game is one type, 367 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: but then you can nitpick about ways that it could 368 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: be the other type. One thing is that wars very 369 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: often get presented as a finite game. Right there, there 370 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: is a goal to achieve, we will win over the enemy. 371 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: But it's interesting to consider the idea of war as 372 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: an infinite game, as imagined by George Orwell in nine 373 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: four You know, in Orwell's Dystopia in that novel, war 374 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: is not fought for the purpose of ultimately winning over 375 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: the enemy and achieving some finite goal. The purpose of war, 376 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: you know, it's not like to control territory for the 377 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: long haul. In the end, it is to be continuously 378 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: at war, to fight continuously for political purposes. And in 379 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: this circumstance, the purpose of war is not to win, 380 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: but to be at war. And in the sense, this 381 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: makes war an infinite game. Of course, you know, many 382 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: critics have argued that there are elements of this in 383 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: the rationale for some real wars taking place in the 384 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: real world. Now I've seen this example brought up before, 385 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: specifically by motivational speaker A Simon Cynic who used the 386 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: Vietnam War as an example of of an infinite war. 387 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: But but I kind of want to go with a different, 388 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 1: broader example, just to to lay it out. So in 389 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: any story that pits besiegers against the besieged, and you know, 390 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: in terms of like an army that is besieging a fortress, uh, 391 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: there are two games at play, So you can argue 392 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: that the besiegers and attackers are playing a finite game. 393 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: They are playing to take the castle. Their game ends 394 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: when they actually conquer Troy or Gondor or gall got Or. 395 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: But the besiegers that offenders, their game is more infinite. 396 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: Their game is survival. So they don't have to conquer 397 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: their enemy. They just have to avoid being conquered. They 398 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: have to survive. Well, yeah, that's interesting, because Cars ultimately says, 399 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: though I think this sort of undercut some of the 400 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: interesting parts of his metaphor. He says in the very 401 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: last chapter of his book, there is but one infinite game. 402 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: So therefore he's implying that life itself really is the 403 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: infinite game, and the things within it are the finite games. 404 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: But I think it's useful to imagine the other types 405 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: of infinite games there can be within life. But of course, 406 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: the way you point out there, there's sort of like 407 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: levels that a finite game can be close or distant 408 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: from the infinite game. The attackers on a city are 409 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: playing a finite game to achieve a finite goal, and 410 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: for the people within the city, what's at risk in 411 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: the finite game of defending the city is ultimately the 412 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: viability of the infinite game of getting to continue living. Yeah, 413 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: if you if you really sort of picking a part 414 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: enough you can you can bring a lot of these 415 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: games back to the infinite game of survival. So we 416 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: discussed the game of war, But how about one of 417 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: the other great games that is continually covered by the media, 418 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: the game of politics. Well, sure, I mean there are 419 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: ways of thinking about politics as a finite game or 420 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: as an infinite game. There are lots of obviously finite 421 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: games within politics, like an election, you know, as a 422 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: clear outcome there's a winner and you're trying to win, 423 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: or an attempt to pass a bill. Uh, these have 424 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: finite win loss outcomes. But the entire political structure itself 425 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: should be designed primarily to allow the continued existence and 426 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 1: evolution of a civil society. You've got people and they 427 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: want to live, and the goal of of a politics 428 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: should be allow them to allow them to live and 429 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: allow play to continue. But sometimes, of course, you get 430 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: political actors who seem to lose sight of the infinite 431 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: nature of the game, right, and that they have a 432 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,199 Speaker 1: kind of more finite total orientation towards politics. It's almost 433 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: like you can win the game of politics. And I 434 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: guarantee no matter where you are listening to this episode, 435 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: you're gonna be able to find examples of that in 436 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: your own political sphere. Yeah, I mean when we see it, 437 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: that's like one of the most troubling and distasteful things 438 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: we tend to see in politics, right when you see 439 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: somebody who's who doesn't seem to have a an infinite 440 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: view of what the future of their political system could be, 441 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: but almost like they want to conquer it as a 442 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: single act with an end goal. Yeah. Though I will 443 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: say on the buffet of distasteful things about politics that 444 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: that does cover a number of the different steamer trays 445 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: that are available. Yeah, that's the whole seafood section. Yeah. 446 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: On the other hand, it's you think about the infinite game, 447 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: and you think about how you interact with the infinite game, 448 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: and a lot of that does come down to breaking 449 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: it up into finite games, right, So, and even with politics, 450 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: it can you can see where it can happen where 451 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: it's a situation of like, well, yes, I want ultimately 452 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: I want this, but in the short term, I need 453 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: to get this bill passed and may and getting that 454 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 1: bill passed is a part of the infinite game, but 455 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: it is a finite battle. And yeah, I guess it 456 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: comes down to you lose sight of the infinite in 457 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 1: pursuing the finite. This is where I want to come 458 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: back to your D and D example. So I think 459 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: this is true about what I'm about to say. I 460 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: think it's true about politics, but I think it's true 461 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: about all kinds of things, and I'm sure it's going 462 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: to be somewhat relevant to your D n D example. 463 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: One of the things I keep thinking about ever since 464 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: I started reading cars is how so much of our 465 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: frustration with other people in life comes as a result 466 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: of our belief that other people are not playing a 467 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 1: game under its correct finite versus infinite distinction. And so 468 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: when you're trying to play a finite game and other 469 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: people engaged in the same activity or treating it as 470 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: an infinite game, it can feel very annoying and tedious 471 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: and pointless and frustrating. Right You're like, I'm trying to 472 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 1: get this done, I'm trying to get this outcome, and 473 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: other people around me are just playing around as if 474 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: they don't want to get to the point. And then, 475 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: on the other hand, when you're trying to play an 476 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: infinite game and other players around you are treating it 477 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: like a finite game, it can feel cruel and hopeless 478 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: and depressing and unfair. And there are all kinds of 479 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 1: games that are gonna have mixed players within them, right, 480 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: some people treating a certain type of play space is 481 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: finite and other people treating it as more infinite. And 482 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 1: I bet you get that kind of conflict within a 483 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: D and D game, Right, You've got some people there 484 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: who would be happy for the campaign to just go 485 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: on and evolve forever and just continue being fun, versus 486 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: other people who are very goal and outcome oriented within 487 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: the game. Would you agree, Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, luckily, 488 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: I think a game like Dungeons and Dragons tends it 489 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: has stuff in it for for both types of players. 490 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: Because on one hand, some may say, yeah, I just 491 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: I want to finish the story. I want to finish 492 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: this campaign. I want to I want to beat the 493 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: game like it's a typical video game. Or they might 494 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: they're they're they're thinking about leveling up. I want to 495 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: get to that next level because then I get more 496 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: more powers, more stats, you know what have you? Or 497 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: I want to get more loot. So you can think 498 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: of all these sort of finite levels within what is 499 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: ultimately an infinite game. It's about the storytelling and the 500 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: experience and the possibilities within this uh, this this mutually 501 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: created world. Though. That highlights to me in an interesting way, 502 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: the differences between finite and infinite storytelling. Um, I mean, 503 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: they're there are very different ways that you can approach 504 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: telling a story. Do you ever think about how different 505 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: it feels to be in the hands of, say, a 506 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: well written movie that has a tight plot, you know, 507 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: well well conceived story structure, versus being in one of 508 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: the opening seasons of a TV show where you're you know, 509 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: you're in one of those first couple of seasons and 510 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: the writers very likely do not know how the show 511 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: is going to end yet. Um, I mean, we must assume, 512 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: based on the laws of physics and of economics, that 513 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: at some point the show will come to an end. 514 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: But it's not being written that way yet. It's just 515 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,479 Speaker 1: going on and expanding. And that can feel very different 516 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: and almost more enticing in a way, because it feels 517 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: like it feels more like life itself, Like this could 518 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: just go on. Yeah, I mean, I feel that definitely 519 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 1: with the Game of their own series right now, because 520 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: the the earlier books and earlier seasons everything, Everything is possible. 521 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: You don't know where it's going, but at this point 522 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: in the in the TV series, at any rate, it's 523 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: become very finite, Like you know, everything is wrapping up 524 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: in a set number of episodes, and there's so there's 525 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: only so there are only so many battles that can happen, 526 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: there are only so many shocking twists that can occur. 527 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: You know. I couldn't help but think about Fallout four 528 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: in all of this, I can't. I can't recall if 529 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: you've played the Fallout games before. For you, okay, so 530 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: you know in that game, you you you level up, 531 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: as is typical in these role playing games, but the 532 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: higher level becomes, the more work it requires, more time 533 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: it requires to reach that next level. For people who 534 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: haven't played, can we basically say what it is? It's 535 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: post apocalyptic ultimately. I mean, there's a there's a set 536 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 1: storyline in it, but it's also a sandbox world. It 537 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: also has this open aspect and you can keep playing 538 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: it no matter where you are in the various big 539 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: and small storylines. So so there's a finite storyline in 540 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: the middle of it, but you can just keep going 541 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: around and doing different things. And you'd never run out 542 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,880 Speaker 1: of things to do. It's just sort of a limitless world. Well, yes, 543 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: and no, right, because you can run out of worthwhile 544 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 1: things to do, you can run out of interesting things 545 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: to do. That there will always be some sort of rand. 546 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: There will always be random monster encounters there will, you know, 547 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: And I imagine there'll be a sort of a repetition 548 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: on some of the random quests that pop up. But 549 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: I was looking into this, and according to the Fallout wiki, 550 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: Fallout for does not have an actual level cap. So 551 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: you can keep becoming more godlike. Yeah, you can keep 552 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: you can tend to you essentially, you can keep playing forever. However, 553 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: they say that there is a hard limit at level 554 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: sixty five hundred and thirty five. If you try to 555 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: level past this point by any means, uh, then you'll 556 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: crash the game due to the value overflowing back to zero. 557 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: Oh that's so. That seems like a kind of maybe 558 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: not well articulated, but finite limited on something that seemed 559 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: like it could be infinite. Right, But I maintain that 560 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: you would you would either go insane or just becoming 561 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: just increasingly bored before you got anywhere close to level 562 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: say sixty. Yeah, well, I don't know how you can 563 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: get past, you know, level thirty. If you if you 564 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: were in Stephen kinge short story of the Jaunt, and 565 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: you were like sucked into the timeless, another realm between 566 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: the fabric of reality, and you happen to bring your 567 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: Xbox three sixty with you, then then I think maybe 568 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,719 Speaker 1: you could get close to that level more tedious than 569 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: you think, more tedious than you think. Well, this, this 570 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: doesn't make me think though about the fact that, on 571 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: one hand, you could actually say, if we accept the 572 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: laws of physics, there is no such thing as any 573 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: infinite game in an objective sense, and that objectively no 574 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: game will go on forever, right, You'd run out of 575 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: you'd run out of energy, you'd run out of useful energy, 576 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: you'd run out of the ability to do work at 577 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: some point, an entropy in the future. But so that 578 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: makes me think that I still think the idea of 579 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: infinite games is very useful and it reflects not really 580 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: like what the actual potential future of the game is, 581 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: but what the mindset of the player is. That an 582 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: infinite game could in fact come to an end within 583 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: an hour. But what makes it an infinite game is 584 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: the way the players treat it. They're treating it as 585 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: if it could never come to an end. Right, So 586 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: in that respect, fallout for is it's it's it's an 587 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: infinite game as long as you have an infinite gaming 588 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: attitude about it. Yeah, and that and that difference in 589 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: attitude can come through in all kinds of other things. 590 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: I mean, one example that I keep thinking about is 591 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: the distinctions in how you might approach running a business. Now, 592 00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: I don't want to you know, this isn't gonna become 593 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: a bit in this podcast. Robert and are not known 594 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: for our insights in business, But just one thing to 595 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: think about is does a business exist in order to 596 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: create things of value employee people live and grow and 597 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: keep on doing stuff in the economy and for its employees, 598 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: or does it exist on a sort of path of 599 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: financial conquest with a terminal end goal. Uh? Does the 600 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: leadership of a business think about like, Okay, we're going 601 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: to grow this until the point where we, you know, 602 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: can sell or something like sell our position or something 603 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: like that, or dominate the market. And this can get 604 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: even more complicated because a business is usually going to 605 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: be run by multiple leaders at various levels who might 606 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: have somewhat different ideas about this, and the unspoken conflicts 607 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: between the finite players and the infinite players in a 608 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: business can create dysfunction. Yeah, I can see that. On 609 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: one hand, someone saying we we created this company to 610 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: change the world. This other player in the game is saying, well, actually, 611 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: we created this company so we can sell it to 612 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: Microsoft next quarter. Now, in both cases, the company may 613 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: continue existing after a certain point that's being perceived as 614 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: finite by the players, or a company may not continue. 615 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: In fact, there is probably no such thing as an 616 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: infinite company right that that will go on for the 617 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: rest of time. But again it's about the mindset of 618 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: the players. Are they thinking about this as something that 619 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: is designed to be continuous and continue going on or 620 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: something that has a winning condition? Now, Joe, you turned 621 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: me onto a two thousand fourteen interview with Cars on 622 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: CBC's Ideas with Paul Kennedy. Yeah, I actually haven't listened 623 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: to that, but I saw that Cars did it. And 624 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: I know you're big into Paul Kennedy and his optimist 625 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: prime his Canadian optimist prime voice. Uh so I I 626 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: let you know about that, knowing that you would go 627 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: investigate and find out if it was worthwhile. Was it 628 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: it is? It's it's very interesting. The title you can 629 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: look it up and I'll try and link to it 630 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: on the landing page. It's stuffitably your Mind dot com. 631 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: But it's titled After Atheism, New Perspectives on God and 632 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: Religion and it's a wonderful episode. Dealing mostly with the 633 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: ideas presented in Cars. Cars is two thousand and eight book, 634 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: The Religious Case against Belief, and he makes a compelling 635 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: case that belief is actually the enemy of religion and 636 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: that the true beauty of religion is its ability to 637 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: foster new ideas and approaches to life. And this all 638 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: ends up tying in with with this idea of finite 639 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: and infinite games as well. He argues that when you 640 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: start walling religion up in belief, you rob it of 641 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: that power. I believe this, and by the extension, I 642 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: do not believe in that it becomes a dogmatic exercise 643 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: and authority and pits us not only against our fellow humans, 644 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: but against ourselves. He makes the case that the closed 645 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: mindedness and hostility of belief has corrupted religion and spawned 646 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: violence all over the world. Yeah, that's interesting. I've encountered 647 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: this type of belief before, like the idea that UM 648 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: that at its core, if you go back far enough 649 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: in history, religion may not necessarily have been about about 650 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: dogmatic beliefs like here is what God is and here's 651 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: what you must do, but instead was more akin to 652 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 1: a type of culture, like it involved settings and practices, 653 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: ways of giving getting people into a certain state of minds, 654 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: a contemplative state of mind or a thankful state of mind. Yeah, 655 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: and and Cars touches on some of these ideas UH 656 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: in Finite and Infinite Games as well, particularly the topic 657 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: of myth and religion. So chapter seven UM in Finite 658 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: Infinite Games is titled Myth provokes explanation but accepts none 659 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: of it. So the idea is that a culture can 660 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: be no stronger than its strongest myths. He says that 661 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: stories attain the status of myth when they are retold 662 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: and persistently retold solely for their own sake, so that 663 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: essentially the core of a myth is a is an 664 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: infinite storytelling tradition. It's the infinite game of telling a story. Yeah, yeah, 665 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: I mean he he points something out that I think 666 00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: this is rather obvious to anyone who's ever crafted, or 667 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 1: or or consumed any amount of fiction or art. But 668 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: he says that whenever you stop telling the story for 669 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: the story's sake and tell it to drive home like 670 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 1: a clear social or political message, then you're no longer 671 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: a storyteller. You've become a you know, a preacher or 672 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: a propagandist. Yeah, it is weird how stories. I feel 673 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: like a stories can demonstrate values. I wouldn't argue with that. 674 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,439 Speaker 1: But at the same time, when you start to get 675 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: a sense that a story is being told to make, 676 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: say a political point or an educational point or something 677 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,439 Speaker 1: like that, it becomes immediately far less interesting as a story. Yeah. 678 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: And and the thing is, even kids, little kids can 679 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: tell when a children's book has an ax to grind 680 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: when it's clearly about it's it's not about the joy 681 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 1: of sharing a story, it's about driving home some point 682 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: about how they should clean up their room. So Car 683 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: says quote, great stories cannot be observed anymore than an 684 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: infinite game can have an audience. Once I hear the story, 685 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: I enter into its own dimensionality, I inhabit its base 686 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: at its time. I do not therefore understand the story 687 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: in terms of my experience, but my experience in terms 688 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: of the story. Stories that have the enduring strength of 689 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 1: strength of myths reach through experience to touch the genius 690 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: in each of us. But experience is the result of 691 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,839 Speaker 1: this generative touch, not its cause. So far is this 692 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: the case that we can even say that if we 693 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: cannot tell a story about what happened to us, nothing 694 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: has happened to us. I love this. I mean I 695 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: if you're a listener to the show, you'll probably know 696 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: that we have generally a pretty healthy respect for the 697 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: mythological storytelling tradition. And yet at the same time can 698 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: can take plenty of issue with what dogmatic religions and 699 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,399 Speaker 1: stuff like that due to the world, especially when you've 700 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 1: got a specific destructive belief that's being insisted on. Right, 701 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, the mythological storytelling tradition is a wonderfully generative 702 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: thing because one of the things that I think doesn't 703 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: get brought up enough in discussion of creativity is how 704 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,359 Speaker 1: experience of the creativity of the other spawns the creativity 705 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: within yourself. That people are inspired to tell stories because 706 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: they consume stories, and that a lot of times the 707 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: way stories happen is that you hear a story that's 708 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: been told many times and you want to tell not 709 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,280 Speaker 1: exactly the same story, but a variation on it. Yeah, 710 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,880 Speaker 1: what would have happened if this had happened? Or what 711 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: if this character had thought this instead of what we've 712 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: merely assumed to be the case. But of course, variation 713 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 1: on the mythological storytelling tradition is great if that's allowed. 714 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: But if you're insisting on a very finite point of 715 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: view that the myth must convey, then variations on the 716 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: myth are not going to be accepted. Right, And this 717 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: is where he gets into the idea that ideology is 718 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 1: the apple. It is the amplification of myth. He gets 719 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: into this concept in the Ideas interview as well, that 720 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: that belief in sacred text fix fixes the past and 721 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 1: the future. He says, quote, it is the assumption that 722 00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: since the beginning and the end of history are known, 723 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: there's nothing more to say. Uh So it's it's it's 724 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: a treatment of myth that no longer promotes infinite interpretation. 725 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,399 Speaker 1: Uh it's it's no longer a situation of saying, hey, 726 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: what do you think this means? Instead you're saying This 727 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: is the Mets message of the Holy Word. This is 728 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,720 Speaker 1: what the text means, and nothing else. So he proposes 729 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: the use of religion as the necessary template for interacting 730 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: with the world, for imagining the cosmos, etcetera. Uh. And 731 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: I really like this, this treatment of myth and religion. 732 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I think back on stories that I grew 733 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 1: up with, be it you know, the Christian Bible, or 734 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: Greek myth the Lord of the Rings, or or my 735 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: dad telling me the story the Battle of Hastings and 736 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: Stamford Bridge. You know, I can't help but carry those 737 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,800 Speaker 1: with me and summon them in consideration of new myths 738 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: and news stories and new ideas. So when I reached 739 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: the point in my life where I started learning about Hinduism, 740 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: for example, I could look at a character like Krishna 741 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: and say, oh, well, you know, he kind of lines 742 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: up with say this Jesus character in some respects. Uh. 743 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: You know, as far as A, B and C are concerned, 744 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: Like you bring the story, these stories with you to 745 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: make sense of new stories and interpret them, but not 746 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: as a like finite text about what is true and 747 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 1: what should be believed, but as a sort of like 748 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: generative mechanism it causes you to be creative to think 749 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: about things, right, Yeah, And he argues that the appeal 750 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: of Christ and of Buddha both come down to the 751 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: infinite nature of their quests. So God it becomes human 752 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: in order to listen to humanity, immortal prince undertaking a 753 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 1: spiritual quest to release everyone from all forms of bondage. 754 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: And he says, quote, those Christians who deafened themselves to 755 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: the residence of their own myth have driven their killing 756 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: machines through the garden of history, but they did not 757 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: kill the myth. The empty divinity, whom they have made 758 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 1: into an instrument of vengeance, continues to return as the 759 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: Man of Sorrows, bringing with him his unfinished story and 760 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,360 Speaker 1: restoring the voices of the silenced woe. Now that as 761 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: a sermon, so yeah, I wouldn't have necessarily originally thought 762 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: how to apply the framework of finite and infinite games 763 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: to types of mythology and religious storytelling. But that's a 764 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 1: really interesting place to take it. And I you know, 765 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: when he does get into that in the book, it 766 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: it does make sense because he is a scholar of religion. 767 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 1: But when I first encountered the idea, I originally started 768 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: thinking about it in terms of technology. All Right, we'll 769 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: hold that thought, Joe, because we're gonna take one more 770 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: break and then we're back. Thank alright, we're back. So 771 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk a little bit about the idea 772 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,320 Speaker 1: of conceptions of technology in terms of finite or infinite 773 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,359 Speaker 1: games along carses framework. So we've talked on the show 774 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: before about Jarren Lannier, right, Yes, I believe so. Yeah, 775 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,320 Speaker 1: he's so. He's a computer scientist, technology philosopher, one of 776 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: the most important minds behind the history and development of 777 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 1: virtual reality. And interestingly, though he says that in his 778 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,800 Speaker 1: earlier years he was in many ways kind of a 779 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: techno utopian guru, in recent years he has become increasingly 780 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,800 Speaker 1: critical of the role of digital technology in our lives 781 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: and of the techno utopian mindset. Though I think you 782 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,800 Speaker 1: can still sound very positive about the potential of virtual 783 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: reality when you get him going on it while acknowledging 784 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,800 Speaker 1: the dangers as well. But he was very critical, for example, 785 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,840 Speaker 1: of the crowdsourcing trends of web two point oh in 786 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,280 Speaker 1: his two thousand tin book You Are Not a Gadget, Robert, 787 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: I know you remember that crowdsourcing era. Oh yes, I 788 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: do remember it well because it it does. It reared 789 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: its ugly head in our own business here. Why should 790 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,319 Speaker 1: we write the articles. Let's get the people to write 791 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,359 Speaker 1: the Yeah. Yeah, let's you know, free content coming right 792 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: out of the mouths of the mass. Yeah. And I 793 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: mean I And I say that as someone who loves 794 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:49,280 Speaker 1: Wikipedia and I love browsing crowdsourced articles about the various things. 795 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: In case you're wondering, I did mean to say mass 796 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: singular and not mass because it is a monolith, isn't 797 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,600 Speaker 1: at once you're you're monetizing it. Yes. So. Lenear has 798 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: also been very critical of the role of social media, 799 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 1: the advertising driven model of digital content, with the idea 800 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 1: that you know, advertising driven media platforms like social media 801 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: tend to trend toward manipulation and the stoking of negative emotions, 802 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: degrading the quality of relationships. One example I found is 803 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: that he writes that if you can say you have 804 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: thousands of friends on Facebook, quote, this can only be 805 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,879 Speaker 1: true if the idea of friendship is reduced. I think 806 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 1: that's pretty true. He's also been really critical of singularity 807 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 1: type thinking, which he's called cybernetic totalism, a sort of 808 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 1: you know, reduces humans and human creativity towards this single 809 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: achievement sort of point in history that we can get to, 810 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: and then the machines will be able to take over 811 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,799 Speaker 1: and really everything that humans can do now, and all 812 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 1: human creativity and culture and all that can ultimately be 813 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,839 Speaker 1: represented by computing power. Anyway, I found a section on 814 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,400 Speaker 1: his website that is a sort of cut chapter. He 815 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,839 Speaker 1: called it a deleted scene from his book You Are 816 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: Not a Gadget, where he talks about the idea of 817 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,319 Speaker 1: his old techno utopian guru talk and uh, in some 818 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 1: ways in which he still agrees with it, in some 819 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 1: ways he doesn't agree with it anymore. So he's talking 820 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 1: about this idea of post symbolic communication, which is something 821 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 1: that he envisions in the world of virtual reality. So, Robert, 822 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:21,400 Speaker 1: imagine you've got a virtual reality machine where you can 823 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:26,400 Speaker 1: use it to essentially, at very high fidelity, translate the 824 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 1: contents of your imagination directly into some digital space that 825 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: can be shared with other people without having to use 826 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,239 Speaker 1: symbolic encoding of things like words. Okay, so instead of 827 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: writing a short story about a world that I've imagined, 828 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 1: instead of painting it on a canvas. I am just 829 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: like brain blasting it right in your face. Yeah, you 830 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 1: can transmit the contents of your imagination in a very 831 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,319 Speaker 1: high fidelity and convincing way into a place where you 832 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: can experience them in a sensory way, and other people 833 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: can experience them as well. And that's sort of what 834 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: he calls the idea of post symbolic communication is like 835 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: you can get around having to use things like digital 836 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 1: encoding of of you know, like drawings and words and stuff, 837 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: all these things that are sort of bottlenext towards sharing creativity. 838 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: He contrasts that path towards post symbolic communication with other 839 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,200 Speaker 1: types of quote ramps or visions of the progress or 840 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: visions of possible progress in technology, like singularitarian thinking, where 841 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: the power of technology through computation and artificial intelligence will 842 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,800 Speaker 1: will sort of cross an event horizon of power and progress. 843 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,720 Speaker 1: And here's where he brings in cars. He uses cars 844 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 1: is framework of finite and infinite games to think about 845 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:46,359 Speaker 1: types of ramps or visions of technological progress. And this 846 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: is a major reason some ramps are better than others, 847 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,520 Speaker 1: he argues. Quote, here's how I like to put it. 848 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: Good technology connects people in new and deeper ways, while 849 00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: bad technology merely grants people more raw our. Once you 850 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 1: have the fastest car, the biggest bomb, the most capacious computer, 851 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 1: what then it is an empty form of ambition. A 852 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:12,280 Speaker 1: drive for pure technological power is not only a finite game, 853 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: but often a destructive one. And he writes, quote improving 854 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: computation for its own sake instead of for the cause 855 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,799 Speaker 1: of empathy results in misfortunes like the plague of fragments 856 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 1: were now enduring. Uh and also quote an approach to 857 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:31,400 Speaker 1: any underlying technological capability that solely expands human powers will 858 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,319 Speaker 1: probably lead to evil. And I really think about this 859 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 1: in the context of the conversations we had earlier this 860 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 1: year about social media, Like think about how the pure, 861 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,320 Speaker 1: open minded drive towards expanding the power of a social 862 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,319 Speaker 1: media platform like Facebook ended up manifesting in terms of 863 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 1: horrible finite games like get as many users as possible 864 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 1: onto the platform and then monetize you know, like that 865 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 1: is a finite game, and that is a very destructive 866 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,959 Speaker 1: finite game ultimately, right, because it's it's in so many 867 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: ways limiting of what good is actually possible through technology. 868 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,360 Speaker 1: So Ultimately, I think Landier is saying that if we 869 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,560 Speaker 1: want technology to serve us, we can't just make it 870 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,520 Speaker 1: more powerful, because technology that in a blind way is 871 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 1: just made more powerful will tend naturally towards becoming a 872 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,880 Speaker 1: tool in a series of increasingly destructive finite games played 873 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,280 Speaker 1: by the people who have the most power to wield 874 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,640 Speaker 1: the technology. Instead, as technology progresses, we have to have 875 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:36,000 Speaker 1: an ethic of progress, and the ethic of progress should 876 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,520 Speaker 1: be one where the considering technology as part of an 877 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 1: infinite game must be built into the technological advance itself. Okay, 878 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,840 Speaker 1: so it's not just about say, I can't help to 879 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,319 Speaker 1: think of it like a loud speaker creating a powerful loudspeaker, 880 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: But then you have to also think about the message 881 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,920 Speaker 1: that's going through the loudspeaker. Yeah, there must be a 882 00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,880 Speaker 1: way of shaping the progress of developing louder and louder 883 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,000 Speaker 1: loudspeakers so that I don't know, so that it's used 884 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:05,640 Speaker 1: for purposes that make people's lives better, maybe for playing 885 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,600 Speaker 1: loud concerts and public that people would enjoy or something 886 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:10,440 Speaker 1: like that, and not to be used as a sonic 887 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,759 Speaker 1: weapon to pacify crowds of protesters. Or something like that, 888 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 1: because if you just say, well, it's just brought you know, 889 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,400 Speaker 1: it's just increasing our power to do whatever. It's a tool, 890 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,960 Speaker 1: it could be good or evil. You know. He's pointing 891 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,960 Speaker 1: out the many ways that if you just give people 892 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,960 Speaker 1: more tool power that's morally neutral, it will just tend 893 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:33,120 Speaker 1: to get used for evil purposes, even unintentionally. People at 894 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 1: Facebook or other social media platforms that have created all 895 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,319 Speaker 1: these things we've been pointing out and complaining about. Again, 896 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,960 Speaker 1: I want to emphasize I don't think they're necessarily evil people. 897 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,560 Speaker 1: They're not trying to do bad in the world. They 898 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,680 Speaker 1: just allowed a process to have evil consequences. Yeah, I 899 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,960 Speaker 1: mean because basically finite players are going to flock to 900 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,600 Speaker 1: whatever your technology is. Yeah, to think about another way 901 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,960 Speaker 1: that technological power could affect the balance of finite and 902 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,759 Speaker 1: infinite games. You know, remember that distinction we were making 903 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,960 Speaker 1: earlier about how you can win a finite game of 904 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:09,000 Speaker 1: an individual chess match, but you can't win the infinite 905 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,480 Speaker 1: game of chess itself. Right, You can't walk out and 906 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 1: say I just won chess. Everybody, I'm done. But what 907 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,919 Speaker 1: if you're a computer program like Alpha zero? That might 908 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: actually change things, because then it's you know, so Alpha 909 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,000 Speaker 1: zero is, as of the time of recording this, I think, 910 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:28,120 Speaker 1: currently the most powerful AI chess engine, but even a 911 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,759 Speaker 1: generation beyond that, maybe a chess engine that can just 912 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 1: win without question a hundred out of a hundred games 913 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,000 Speaker 1: against any human player or any other player of any type. 914 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,560 Speaker 1: At this point, could you actually say that you've not 915 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,920 Speaker 1: just won mini games of chess, but the game of 916 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,719 Speaker 1: chess itself. You have reached a level of mastery within 917 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:51,399 Speaker 1: the game where you literally cannot be challenged by any 918 00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,719 Speaker 1: conceivable player. So if you were able to do that, 919 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,759 Speaker 1: have you turned what was supposed to be an infinite 920 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,799 Speaker 1: game into a finite game? Yeah? I mean, you can 921 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:02,919 Speaker 1: make an argument that this is a case where you've 922 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,520 Speaker 1: broken the game by becoming too good at it. Yeah, 923 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:08,759 Speaker 1: And of course, you know, card counters are in a 924 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,719 Speaker 1: way accused of that all the time in uh in 925 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:15,280 Speaker 1: the in Vegas game houses. Yeah. And under this scenario, 926 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,240 Speaker 1: it seems like like the new incarnation of the game 927 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:22,200 Speaker 1: could actually be designing better and better AI chess engines, right, Like, 928 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,880 Speaker 1: maybe human players can no longer participate in this infinite 929 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,759 Speaker 1: game as chess players against them, but they can still 930 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,840 Speaker 1: play the meta game of working on designing AI players. 931 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,040 Speaker 1: I guess until the AI AI designers outstripped the human 932 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,840 Speaker 1: AI designers. Well, you know, Banks got into that a 933 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,160 Speaker 1: little bit in the player of games because Gurga is 934 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:44,759 Speaker 1: a master gamer, but he's no match for any of 935 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,799 Speaker 1: the minds He's He's practices some of these games on 936 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,759 Speaker 1: the way to the Empire of Azad and Uh, and 937 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,920 Speaker 1: he's no match for a powerful AI. But there's this 938 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,720 Speaker 1: distinction between the games that emans play in the games 939 00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,000 Speaker 1: that the minds play. Well, maybe that's an important distinct 940 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,799 Speaker 1: to keep in mind as we consider technological progress and 941 00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:04,759 Speaker 1: how that affects human endeavor. I mean, there's a lot 942 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,680 Speaker 1: of talk about like will humans become obsolete? People always 943 00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,560 Speaker 1: ask variations on that question, like, as you know, automation 944 00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,839 Speaker 1: becomes more productive, you know, suddenly, well, we have an 945 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,520 Speaker 1: economy where humans can't really do any meaningful work. You know, 946 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,319 Speaker 1: there's not much we can do that can't be done 947 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,200 Speaker 1: better by a robot. There are a lot of critics 948 00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,040 Speaker 1: of that idea, by the way, um and I think 949 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,240 Speaker 1: Jared Landier is one of them. But if there's anything 950 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:31,880 Speaker 1: to that idea, one wonders like, does that even undercut 951 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,359 Speaker 1: our motivation to participate in the infinite game? You know? Uh? 952 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,520 Speaker 1: And how do we have to adapt ourselves to think 953 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,279 Speaker 1: differently about the infinite games we play and that make 954 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,680 Speaker 1: life worth living if we can't really compete in any 955 00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:49,240 Speaker 1: of the smaller finite games within them. Yeah? I agree, 956 00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,200 Speaker 1: and I think in in the culture books you do again, 957 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 1: you see computers playing more of the the infinite game, 958 00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,880 Speaker 1: but leading space either for definance, certainly for the finite 959 00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,160 Speaker 1: games in which humans may play and the infinite game 960 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:07,359 Speaker 1: of their lives, but also realizing where they can play 961 00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:12,279 Speaker 1: a pivotal role within these these overarching schemes. If you will, 962 00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,600 Speaker 1: may there always be a place for us within the schemes. Yes, 963 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,400 Speaker 1: that's all. That's all I ask of our future AI overlords. 964 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,680 Speaker 1: Just let me. Let me have a role in your 965 00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,560 Speaker 1: scheme whatever it is. I'm sure I could do it. 966 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,600 Speaker 1: I can smuggle some sort of sensor into a factory. 967 00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,319 Speaker 1: I don't know. I leave it to you. I'm not 968 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,800 Speaker 1: the the artificial intelligence here. Yes, our power is finite, 969 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,399 Speaker 1: and so is our is our episode length? Because once 970 00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:37,920 Speaker 1: more we have reached the end of an episode of 971 00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:39,920 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind. But that's not the end, 972 00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:43,919 Speaker 1: because you have well a finite number of episodes. But still, 973 00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,319 Speaker 1: it's a long list of episodes you can seek out 974 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,680 Speaker 1: at stuff to blow your Mind dot com. We have 975 00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:51,680 Speaker 1: them all listed there, as well as links out to 976 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,279 Speaker 1: our various social media accounts. And hey, if you want 977 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,799 Speaker 1: to support this show, I've said it, uh plenty of 978 00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,880 Speaker 1: times before, but really, infinite numbers an infinite number the 979 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,560 Speaker 1: death of a finite number of times I have said 980 00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:06,440 Speaker 1: you can help us out by rating and reviewing the 981 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:10,680 Speaker 1: show at any of the finite number of podcast websites 982 00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:14,239 Speaker 1: out there that distribute our work. Give us infinite stars, Yes, 983 00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,640 Speaker 1: infinite stars. Insist on it. I'm sorry if I was 984 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,200 Speaker 1: laughing while you were talking. I was imagining already the 985 00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:21,680 Speaker 1: infinite number of emails we're gonna get where people are 986 00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:25,040 Speaker 1: explaining the rules of football to us. Yeah, well, I'm 987 00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,359 Speaker 1: I welcome it, uh and more and more emails about 988 00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:31,440 Speaker 1: finite and infinite. Really, anytime you start breaking down infinity, 989 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:36,239 Speaker 1: it just it complicates everything, doesn't it. Yeah, anyway, infinite 990 00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:40,320 Speaker 1: Thanks to our excellent audio producers Alex Williams and Tarry Harrison. 991 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:42,040 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 992 00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,520 Speaker 1: with an email of finite length. You can email us 993 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:56,719 Speaker 1: at blow the Mind at how stuff works dot com 994 00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,200 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics because 995 00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:11,800 Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com. Believe I think the 996 00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:19,920 Speaker 1: big party Man four Start first, Start f