1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio. Hi everyone, 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: I'm Jason Kelly, and I'm Mike Lynch and I'm MICHAELA. 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: Bar And this is the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: where we explored big money issues in the world of sports. 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: And I'm really excited about this conversation today because we're 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: talking about the evolution of sports and business through the 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: lens of America's pastime right at the midseason break. There's 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: no one better to take us through that history, the 9 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: really important history of the integration of baseball, just a 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: fascinating time. We're joined by Luke Eplin. He's the author 11 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: of Our Team, The Epic Story of Four Men and 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: the World Series that Changed Baseball. Luke, Welcome to the podcast. 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. All right, Well, first of all, 14 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: congratulations on the book. It really is amazing. And you know, 15 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: you read the introduction to this and for anybody who's 16 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: followed baseball, you know these names jump out at you. 17 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: You know, the Cleveland, I mean, are a storied franchise 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: for so many ways. Take us back to this idea 19 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: sort of germinating into a book. Well, I was interested 20 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: always and in a character named build back. He was 21 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: an owner of various teams, the Cleveland Indians, the St. 22 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: Louis Browns, and the Chicago White Sox. And I think 23 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: that he is more importantly the inventor of the modern 24 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: stadium experience. He is somebody who was one of the 25 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: first people to really think about ways to combine sort 26 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: of entertaining side shows with competitive play on the field. 27 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: And so he was shooting off fireworks, giving away sort 28 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: of wild promotional things to fans, doing staging sort of 29 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: quiz shows and races and weddings and all these sorts 30 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: of things on the field that we now take for 31 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: granted whenever we go to a baseball game. Um. But 32 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: more importantly, he was also somebody who, along with Branch 33 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: Ricky and the late ninet forties, was interested in integrating 34 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: the the national pastime. And so he integrated the Cleveland Indians, 35 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: of which he was the owner, uh mirror, weeks after 36 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: Ricky had integrated the Dodgers. And I was kind of 37 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: looking at these people that came together on the Indians 38 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: bills that Larry Dobe Satchel Page, Bob Feller, big Hall 39 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: of Fame names, and thinking about how these four people 40 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: really shaped the modern game and formed sort of an 41 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: alternate integration story than the one that we normally hear 42 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: about Jackie Robinson and branch Rickey. I want to go 43 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: more into that, because, yes, everybody has heard the name 44 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: Jackie Robinson, but uh, many casual baseball fans have not 45 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: heard the name Larry Dobe. The second black player in 46 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: the majors, and he was a soft spoken guy according 47 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: to what you see in the book that and his 48 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: first year wasn't the greatest, but then he got it going. 49 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: Can you talk more about Larry Dobie? Yeah, Larry Dobe 50 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: is kind of the answer to a trivia question to 51 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people. He is the second black player 52 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: in Major League baseball in the twentieth century. But I 53 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: think that his journey is sort of equally as meaningful 54 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,399 Speaker 1: and significant as Jackie Robinson's, and more importantly, it's very 55 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: different than Robinson. Robinson comes into major league baseball after 56 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: having spent a year in the minor leagues. He had 57 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: time to acclimate, to sort of adjust himself to these 58 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: all white spaces, and his teammates also had time to 59 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: sort of wrap their minds around integration that was happening 60 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,399 Speaker 1: Robinson was twenty eight years old. He was also nationally 61 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: known from having been a college football star. Larry Adobe 62 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: was much younger at age twenty three. He did not 63 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: get this sort of opportunity to spend time in the 64 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: minors when Bill Beck signed him. Larry Adobe play one 65 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: final game for his team in the Negro Leagues, boarded 66 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: a train, and the very next afternoon he was on 67 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: the Cleveland Indians. He went literally overnight from the negro 68 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: Leagues to the major leagues, the first player to have 69 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: done so, and he really struggled in that transition. He 70 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: did not perform well. Seven, he barely got any at 71 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: bats and he batted below two hundred. He really looked 72 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: like kind of a failure. But then in eight he 73 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: had this miraculous turnaround where he bats over three hundred 74 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: and is really the catalyst and the spark plug that 75 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: gets the Indians into the World Series. They really he 76 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: really sort of demonstrated to major league owners that if 77 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: you have patients and if you disegregate your roster and 78 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: allow a black player to find his footing on these 79 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: these teams, the rewards can be immense. What was the 80 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: economic and social climate in Cleveland and ninety eight, and 81 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: was that city ready to embrace integration on a Major 82 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: League baseball team. Well, Bill Zack certainly had his doubts. 83 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: Whenever he was thinking about integrating the Indians. He thought 84 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: that Brooklyn, which had a more sort of multi ethnic 85 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: character to it, was the ideal place for integration to 86 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: play out. First of all, he thought that Cleveland, which 87 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: was not as sort of multi ethnic was is perhaps 88 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: one that needed to wait for this experiment to play out. 89 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: But he was kind of wrong on that count. Cleveland 90 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: by mid century had sort of African American residents that 91 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: had gained footings in their industrial base through the war, 92 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: and they used that sort of footing to fight for 93 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: better rights, to be able to bring up issues of 94 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: work plicked workplace discrimination, to be able to talk about 95 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: sort of segregation and its lingering effects. And so there 96 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: were city council meetings that were that were brought up 97 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: to address these issues. Um there were there were committees 98 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 1: formed to figure out how to ease uh discrimination and 99 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: segregation and all these sorts of things. So much so 100 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: that by nineteen fifty Ebony magazine declared Cleveland to be 101 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: the most progressive city in the United States on race 102 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: relations UM. So by the time the Indians integrates in UM, 103 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: the he is primed for that. The they have a 104 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: driving African American community. And you will also have to 105 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: remember that the football team, the Cleveland Browns, had also 106 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: integrated earlier that that year and uh they had a 107 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: few ill effects from that. So Cleveland was really at 108 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: the forefront of the integration process in sports. And tell 109 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: us more about ve in terms of his his character, 110 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: his motivations, all of that. As a business person, I 111 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: feel like we in some ways he feels more like 112 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: a an owner in one In some ways you know 113 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,799 Speaker 1: that we he's not what we would necessarily or normally 114 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: or historically associate with an owner of that vintage. Tell 115 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 1: us about that, Yeah, builds that kind of his His reputation, 116 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: I feel like is not what it should be. People 117 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: think of him as more of a P. T. Barnum character, 118 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: shooting off fireworks, sending little people to the plate, doing 119 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: these wild stunts that are everybody sort of now remembers 120 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: him for. But he was doing these things for a reason. 121 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: He sort of thought that owners at that time really 122 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: just catered solely to people that were big fans of 123 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: the game. They didn't do a lot to sort of 124 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: drive interest in their sport and bring out people that 125 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: were either casual fans or not yet fans at all. 126 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,679 Speaker 1: And so he really thought that there was this whole 127 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: sort of uh swath of people that could be sort 128 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: of induced to come to the ballgame if only the 129 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: owners gave them reason to. And so he put on 130 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: sort of shows for these fans. He made them feel 131 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: like if they didn't come to the game, they might 132 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: be missing out on something extremely fun. And then once 133 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: they were there, they could sort of watch the game 134 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: and be like, you know what, I actually enjoyed this. 135 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: And he was also catering to families. He put in 136 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: nurseries at the Cleveland Stadium, and he was catering to women. 137 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: He was a big proponent of ladies days UM, and 138 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: so he drove attendance at Cleveland to not only the 139 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: highest point ever in the city, but also the highest 140 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: point in Major League Baseball history and shatter the attendance 141 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: record in a city that is about one six the 142 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: size of New York City. So the results kind of 143 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: speak for themselves. Beck also believed that UM that that 144 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: integration would not necessarily hurt attendance at all. He thought 145 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: that for every sort of white fan that decides not 146 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: to go because they're uncomfortable with the idea, he would 147 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: gain a member of the black community in Cleveland. And 148 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: he's proven right. The attendants did not dip after integration. 149 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: That brings up an important point. And you stated about 150 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: the importance of examining racial injustice through the lens of sports. 151 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: Can you express why these stories are very poignant and 152 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: why they need to be heard well. I think that 153 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: in today's climate, you often hear the sentiments that people 154 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: want to get politics out of sports, that people should 155 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: just stick to the game, aim that sports have become 156 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: to politicize things like this, And I think that by 157 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: telling stories like this one about the nineteen forties and 158 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: maybe an integration story that not everyone has heard before, 159 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: you see that sports have always been politicized and that 160 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: what VEC was doing was was couched in very political 161 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: terms at the time. This is not a new complaint 162 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: that was going on, and you can see the way 163 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: that that VEC himself leaned into it. He joined then 164 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: double a CP. He was a very vocal advocate for 165 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: um for desegregation, not only in sports, but in housing 166 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: and other sorts of issues, And then you can see 167 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: the way that Larry Dobe in Central Page became sort 168 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: of spokespeople, uh for black athletes and things like that. 169 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: So it's, uh, it's it's a way of sort of 170 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: reminding us that these issues that we're talking about today 171 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: have very long tales and history. Did people around Major 172 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: League Baseball think it was just another stunt when he 173 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: signed Satil Page, who allegedly was forty one years old 174 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: at the time, he could have been fifty one for 175 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: any anyone knows. Absolutely, Bill Veck had known Central Page 176 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: since the sort of early nineteen thirties that could grown 177 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: up in Chicago. He knew a lot about the Negro 178 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: leagues at the time by attending games there. He had 179 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,559 Speaker 1: always had a sort of dream of bringing Satil Page 180 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: into the majors. He didn't do so immediately after buying 181 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,839 Speaker 1: the Indians because he did do all of these other 182 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: sorts of stunts with putting clowns in the coaching boxes 183 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: and fireworks and all that. So he was worried that 184 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: if he brought Central Page first onto the Indians that 185 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: people would really think, oh, well, this is just a stunt. 186 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: This is not serious. But Vic knew that Page had 187 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 1: more to him, and so he did kind of slow 188 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: walk it a little bit. In uh, the Indians were 189 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: sort of neck and neck with the Red Sox and 190 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: the Yankees, and so by mid season, Vic realized that 191 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: they needed more pitching. And since free age and see 192 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: what wasn't really a thing back then, and and pitchers 193 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: were hard to find, he looked to the Negro League 194 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: and realized that Satil Page was the man. And even 195 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: though he got a lot of golf from it from 196 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: the Sporting News and other major publications at the time, 197 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: Satil Page won six games in July and August and 198 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: really carry the Indians through a stretch of the season 199 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: that otherwise might have sunk them. So, Luke, you know, 200 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: fast forward back to today, where you know baseball and 201 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: sport overall, you know, continues to as Michael Barr said 202 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: a few minutes go wrestle with a lot of these issues. 203 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: You know, when when you think about how far baseball 204 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 1: has come or not come candidly in wrestling with this, 205 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, there is some recognition in the record books now, 206 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: you know, Satil Page will now be much more included 207 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: for the for the excellence that he demonstrated on the field, 208 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: not just in you know, for the Indians, but for 209 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: his prior prowess. Where are we in that process? Do 210 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: you think you know? Here? Well, it certainly is a 211 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: sport that has dipped in popularity among black audiences, and 212 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: you see the dip also among black players in the 213 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 1: sport um and I think the reasons for that are myriad. 214 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: I think that you could look at someone like Larry Adobe, 215 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: who in high school was a four four letter athlete. 216 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: Some people thought that baseball wasn't Evendobe's best sport. He 217 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: got a scholarship to play basketball in college at one 218 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: of the top programs, And I had talked to one 219 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: of his old teammates who's in his nineties, and he 220 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: said that Dbe was doing things on the basketball court 221 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: that nobody had ever seen. People are shooting set shots then, 222 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: and Adobe was flying through the air like Elgin Baylor. 223 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: He was so far ahead of his time. And it 224 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: just kind of leads you to believe that if Adobe 225 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: were around now, he probably would have chosen basketball then 226 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: as his sport. But there wasn't a lot of future 227 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: in that for players because the leagues were so uh 228 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: so nascent at the time, and you couldn't make as 229 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: good of a living. So there are certainly more options now. 230 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: And baseball hasn't done a good job for competing for 231 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: these sorts of athletes, and they also haven't done a 232 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: good job of sort of outreach at certain points. But 233 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: who knows. I mean, these things could be cyclical. I 234 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: know that based Major League Baseball is now investing a 235 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: lot and and sort of programs that are gonna be 236 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: aimed toward minority communities in the United States. Um, they're 237 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: investing a lot of money. So it's my hope that 238 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: it picks back up at some point. We got to 239 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: talk about Bob Feller, just phenomenal picture and sadly he 240 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: just died about a year ago. God rest his soul. 241 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: I think Feller probably as a picture. Probably people saw 242 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: Feller in their thought, oh my goodness, what is this? 243 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: God made a picture and here it is right here. 244 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: Can you talk about Bob Feller? Yeah, Bob Feller probably 245 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: has the greatest athlete origin story ever. I mean, you 246 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: can look across sports. He was somebody who grew up 247 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: at a in a farm in central Iowa. His dad 248 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: sensed a rare ability in him from a very early age. 249 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: So he cleared off a portion of their farmland and 250 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: built him at baseball diamond right there. It is essentially 251 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: the original field of dreams. Um Feller makes the Indians. 252 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: At the age of seventeen, He and his very first 253 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: start ever in the Major's ties the American League recorded strikeouts, 254 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: and then four four starts later, he ties the Major 255 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: League record in strikeouts. He is such a phenom that 256 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: his high school graduation the next year is broadcast live 257 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: on NBC Radio from coast to coast. He he goes 258 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: on to set numerous records before even the age of twenty. 259 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: But I think the thing that and this ties into 260 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: the theme of the podcast. I think that the thing 261 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: that really people I wanted to get from this book 262 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: is just what an incredible businessman Feller was. He was 263 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: somebody that recognized the value of his name. He recognized 264 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: the value of the narrative of the young boy coming 265 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: from the corn fields into the Major League, and he 266 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: cashed in on it repeatedly throughout his life. He became 267 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: the most paid player in baseball history. He beat Babe 268 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: Ruth single season record of most money he earned by 269 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: an athlete in a season. He was somebody who really 270 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: knew how to capitalize on his fame. He had a 271 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: radio show, he had a syndicated column, He endorsed whatever 272 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: he could, and he did massive barnstorming tours with Satchel Page, 273 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: who was also an incredible businessman and entrepreneur, somebody who 274 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: really built himself up during the time when the Negro 275 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: leagues were in collapse into a one man franchise that 276 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: was making as much money as any white superstar in 277 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: Major League Baseball. And Feller and Page came together during 278 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: the off season on these barnstorming tours and dueled against 279 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: each other and drew such an amount of fans that 280 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: it lined their pockets to a tremendous extent. Of these 281 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: two men were really the forerunners of the athlete as 282 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: brand and the athlete as businessmen. And so if I 283 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: made Luke, why what what inspired them to do that? 284 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: Because that was not the that was not how people 285 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: did things back then in many ways, No, it wasn't. 286 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: I mean, there's certainly precedence to some of these things. 287 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: Babe Ruth and Dizzy Dean, to a certain extent, we're 288 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: pretty good businessmen. Um, you know, I think that Feller 289 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: because he came from a farming background, people sort of 290 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: interpreted him as kind of a bucolic, simple sort of person, 291 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: almost out of the eighteenth century or whatever. But like 292 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: he wasn't. His dad was a tremendous businessman who had 293 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: one of the first tractors in Iowa. He built. He 294 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: bought a lot of land during the depression when other 295 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: farmers were losing it. He was a cold hearted businessman, 296 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: and I think he passed it along to his son. 297 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: Satchel Paige grew up in extreme poverty in Mobile, Alabama 298 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: and had to work at a train station when he 299 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: was young. He got his name Satchel because he would 300 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: bring a rope and a long stick to the train 301 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: station and just kind of put passengers bags over the 302 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: stick so he would carry more of them that at 303 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: a time, people said that he carried so many satchels 304 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: all you could see was Satchel, and so that's how 305 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: he got his name. So the sort of d n 306 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: A of both of these people is in business, and 307 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: they recognize in each other that they were the best 308 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: sort of black and white pictures of that time. And 309 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: if they sort of faced off against each other in 310 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 1: these off season bar storming contests. They could draw as 311 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: many white plans as they could black, and that would 312 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: swell the ticket coppers and thus swell their pockets. And 313 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: so they they sort of formed this financial relationship amongst 314 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: themselves before integration. That was a partnership of you know, 315 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,959 Speaker 1: like minded business people. So look, just to follow up 316 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: on that, was Feller a welcoming teammate when Page actually 317 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: they joined the Indians. Feller Page had a complicated personal relationship. 318 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: In six bomb Feller organized the Barnstorming tour that spanned 319 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: the country. He used airplanes, they played in stadiums, and 320 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: he made more than eighty thousand dollars on that tour, 321 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: which was a tremendous sum of money back then. Satchel 322 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: Page was the sort of partner in this for the 323 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: opposing team, the only other picture that really the only 324 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: other player that got billing for this barnstorming tour. But 325 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: by the end, Page felt that Feller was not keeping 326 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: up his end of the bargain and he sued Bob 327 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: Feller in court and I think he ended up winning 328 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: a couple of thousand dollars from Feller for not paying 329 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: him out as much as they did. So I wouldn't 330 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: say these two men were buddy buddy, but they I 331 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: think that they certainly respected each other and appreciated their abilities. Um, 332 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: Bob Feller in the late forties was so involved in 333 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: his own business ventures and all that sort of thing 334 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: that Larry Adobe would later say that it wasn't that 335 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,719 Speaker 1: Seller was necessarily opposed integration or cold or anything like that. 336 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: He was just in his own world. He was such 337 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 1: a superstar that he didn't really have time to to 338 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 1: sort of bother with not only you know, the the 339 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: entrance of players from the Negro leagues onto his team, 340 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 1: but really his other teammates. He was just kind of 341 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: uh in in a different plane. So, Luke, we're talking 342 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: about this very progressive moment in the history of the 343 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: Cleveland franchise, and yet here we are and the team 344 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: is under fire, many would say, quite rightly for its name, 345 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: and at a time when the Washington football team is 346 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,640 Speaker 1: in the process of changing its name. Uh, what happens 347 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: in the interim and tell us how you think this 348 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: will go for for the Cleveland Indians. Well, Bill Zeck 349 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: was somebody who um very much played up the Native 350 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: American imagery of the Indians, and you saw this a 351 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: lot in the times, in the archives at the Times, 352 00:19:54,760 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 1: where there would be grossfully offensive stereotypes and aricatures of 353 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: Native Americans using to describe the Indians. And I personally 354 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: think it's it's long overdue to to think about these 355 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: these these issues around Native American mascots, and I think 356 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: to the Indians credits, they're finally recognizing that and they 357 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: are changing the name, and from what I understand it 358 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: will it will happen in the next year or two. 359 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: I know that some fans are very opposed to it, 360 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: but as as has happened in sort of college athletics, 361 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: whenever they changed a lot of these names and mascots, um, 362 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: they'll be a sort of rage period followed by a 363 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: long cool down. So I'm hoping that that's what happens 364 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: with the Indians. I have to bring something up about 365 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: Bob Feller, and I'm speaking as old man bar and 366 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: the Detroit Tigers fan. And when I was a little 367 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: kid in school, we'd learned about about Bob Feller. He 368 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: was the starting pitcher against the Detroit Tigers. I want 369 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: to say it was or something and our Hank Greenberg. 370 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: He was to home runs away Babe Ruth's then single 371 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: season record of sixty home runs. And then Feller just 372 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: messed the whole thing up because he recorded sixteen strikeouts. Uh. 373 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: It's in fact, he almost at the nine inning MLB 374 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 1: strikeout record. That's how great this guy was. Yeah, well, 375 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,959 Speaker 1: your memory is right on, but a little off. Actually, 376 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: Bob Feller did set the strikeout record that day. He 377 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: had eighteen and uh that was the last game of 378 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: the season where he did shut out the Tigers, but 379 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: he ended up losing that game. He despite his eighteen 380 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: strikeouts because there was a picture named Floyd giebel of 381 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: the or I believe that was, yeah, of the of 382 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: the Tigers that then ended up beating him, Uh in 383 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: a very close game. But yeah, I mean he was 384 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: at a time whenever the strikeout rate wasn't nearly as 385 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: high as it is now in Major League Baseball, Bob 386 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: Feller was recording extraordinary strikeout numbers. I mean, he was 387 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: throwing so hard that people they say, we're just kind 388 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: of scared to come to the plate because he also 389 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: was slightly wild, and so you couldn't you couldn't sort 390 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: of rest and just wait for the fastball. You didn't 391 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: know where the ball was going to go. I imagine 392 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: he must have been one of the most terrifying pictures 393 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: in any of these batters have ever seen. Does the 394 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: city of Cleveland appreciate of what went on in this 395 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: nineteen forty eight team or is it just Hey, the 396 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: last time the Indians won was this is just an 397 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: incredible story. I'm just completely completely grabbed by it. Yeah. 398 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 1: I mean the fact that it was the last time 399 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: that the Indians won the World Series keeps it more 400 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: sort of front and center in terms of Indian sand 401 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,239 Speaker 1: um um. It might have been slightly more diluted if 402 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: they had won in the nineties or even in sixteen 403 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: when they were in the World Series, but it certainly 404 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: is something that that Indians fans remember very fondly. I mean, 405 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: it was a time whenever, as I think I put 406 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: it in the book, sort of athletics, stardom, h civic strength, 407 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: and sort of people coming back from the war and 408 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: just wanting to to to let loose really converged. Cleveland 409 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: was at the height of its powers. It had nearly 410 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: a million people um and within its borders, uh the 411 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: the industrial base was still strong and hadn't been hollowed 412 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: out yet, and people that had spent years, you know, 413 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: suffering from the depression and then the war really looked 414 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: to the Indians a sort of a way of establishing 415 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: normalcy and a way of um, a way of sort 416 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: of letting out pent of feelings that they've been keeping 417 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: in for so long. I mean, it became sort of 418 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,400 Speaker 1: a frenzy in in Cleveland. There is just uh you'd 419 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: see sort of eighty thou people in Municipal Stadium, this 420 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: giant place on Lake Erie right there. And yeah, it 421 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: was it was a nationwide sensation that that is still 422 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: remembered today. Well, it's an incredible book, an incredible tale, 423 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: and it's amazing when someone can identify something that happened 424 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: historically that has such resonance and relevance today. So congratulations 425 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: on the book. Luke Eplin is the author of Our Team, 426 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: The Epic Story of Four Men and the World Series 427 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: that Changed Baseball. Check it out. It's a terrific read, 428 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: as as Lynch he just said, just incredibly compelling, and uh, 429 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: it's so many echoes through society and sports, and a reminder, 430 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: as Luke said earlier in the conversation of the power 431 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: that sports has economically and socially. We're reminded of that 432 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: a lot, but it's important to remember that there's a long, 433 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: long legacy and an important legacy to explore. So Luke, 434 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Thank you. 435 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: This is the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast. I'm Michael Barr, 436 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: along with Mike Lynch and Jason Kelly, and we're here 437 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: each and every Monday, Wednesday and Thursday exploring the world 438 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: of money in sports. You're listening to Bloomberg Business of 439 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: Flords on Bloomberg Radio around the world and online wherever 440 00:24:58,200 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: you get your podcast.