WEBVTT - How Donald Trump Changed Washington | A Conversation with McKay Coppins

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<v Speaker 1>This is the warning. I'm Steve Schmidt. Welcome. I'm here

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<v Speaker 1>with Mackay Coppins, who is an Atlantic magazine staff writer,

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<v Speaker 1>is the author of a great biography of Willard Mitt Romney,

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<v Speaker 1>the former governor of Massachusetts, the United States Senator from Utah,

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<v Speaker 1>the two thousand and twelve Republican nominee for President of

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<v Speaker 1>the United States. The name of that book is Romney

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<v Speaker 1>The Reckoning, and he has written recently for The Atlantic,

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<v Speaker 1>a long form profile of James Murdoch, The Murdoch Children,

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<v Speaker 1>about the Murdoch family, all of the considerations of the

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<v Speaker 1>children with regarding the news empire that has, in my

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<v Speaker 1>view done so much damage to the country. Two concepts

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<v Speaker 1>of truth and what will happen to it as the

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<v Speaker 1>inevitable happens, and Rupert Murdoch passes from this world to

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<v Speaker 1>the next sometime before not too very long at age

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<v Speaker 1>ninety five. We have McKay Coppins with us, who I

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<v Speaker 1>just want to say to everybody that he is an

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<v Speaker 1>extremely talented writer, probably in my view, one of the

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<v Speaker 1>two or three very very best of the best long

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<v Speaker 1>form magazine profile writers of the country. In the country.

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<v Speaker 1>You back and look at a masterpiece of writing for

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<v Speaker 1>those of you who are interested in writing as a

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<v Speaker 1>form of expression and read his profile I think in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty with Steve Bannon at Steve Bannon's head Orders

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<v Speaker 1>on the night of the Biden election, extraordinary portrait of

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<v Speaker 1>the MAGA movement at a low move at a low moment.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm really thrilled today to have Mickay Coppins joining

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<v Speaker 1>me again. One of the best buy the book. You'll

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<v Speaker 1>learn a lot about a compelling figure over this last

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<v Speaker 1>decade and a half who is a deeper person than

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<v Speaker 1>you may suspect, but with no further ado McKay coppins welcome.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Steve, and thank you for that very kind,

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<v Speaker 2>too kind introduction. But I'm glad to be here. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>glad to be talking to you.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the odd things about this moment is that

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<v Speaker 1>people like me, all of a sudden get to ask

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<v Speaker 1>journalists like you questions and do so in front of

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<v Speaker 1>an audience that is sizeable and has a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>curiosity about what journalism has become, what it is. What

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<v Speaker 1>I hope to do today is to expose them really

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<v Speaker 1>to a world class practitioner. As we kind of get

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<v Speaker 1>into Fox News and the story. I just want to

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<v Speaker 1>start out, how do you assess what is happening in Washington?

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<v Speaker 1>What is the mood in Washington, DC? Right now? What

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<v Speaker 1>is at a top level explaining beyond what I would

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<v Speaker 1>say are the contours of a television production, a manifestation

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<v Speaker 1>of reality show theater projected as the workings of the

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<v Speaker 1>presidency to create responses, feelings, and effects. Take us into

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<v Speaker 1>the cavern if you will a little bit.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I always struggle to answer the question of, like,

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<v Speaker 2>what's the vibe in Washington, because it really depends on

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<v Speaker 2>who you are, Right, There's certainly a contingent of Republicans,

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<v Speaker 2>Trump supporters, MAGA types, for whom this is like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>their emotional apex. This is like the triumph they have

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<v Speaker 2>been working toward for in some cases decades. Right, This

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<v Speaker 2>mass disruption of the federal government, this dismantling of federal agencies,

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<v Speaker 2>the replacement of civil servants and nonpartisan bureaucrats with Trump loyalists,

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<v Speaker 2>like this is a project that has been in the

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<v Speaker 2>works for a very long time, you know, way before

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<v Speaker 2>Project twenty twenty five became a kind of talking point.

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<v Speaker 2>And so for some conservatives, Andublicans. This is a kind

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<v Speaker 2>of joyful moment. I would say, if you tried to

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<v Speaker 2>take the temperature of the Washington metropolitan area in general,

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's hard to overstate how much the early

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<v Speaker 2>weeks of trumps second term have kind of upended things,

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<v Speaker 2>right and how unnerving it is right now. To me,

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<v Speaker 2>the most unnerving thing about the early weeks of the

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<v Speaker 2>Trump presidency hasn't really been the Trump Show that you're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about, you know, the post untruth social and the

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<v Speaker 2>press conferences and Elon and the Oval Office and stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, your mile wage may vary on that stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>but like to me, it's kind of a piece with

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<v Speaker 2>what Trump has been for since twenty fifteen, right for

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<v Speaker 2>the past decade and maybe even longer you could go

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<v Speaker 2>and do his reality TV days. What's unnerving to me

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<v Speaker 2>is the culture of fear and self censorship and silence

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<v Speaker 2>that is becoming pervasive among large segments of Washington d C.

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<v Speaker 2>I personally know people who work in the federal government,

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<v Speaker 2>work in the State Department, Justice Department, places like that,

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<v Speaker 2>who are fundamentally not partisans. They are not political creatures

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<v Speaker 2>in any meaningful sense. They've worked under administrations from both parties,

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<v Speaker 2>and they are terrified, right, and they are looking over

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<v Speaker 2>their shoulders constantly. They're afraid of ever expressing any kind

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<v Speaker 2>of political opinion, even in private among friends at church,

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<v Speaker 2>at dinner, because it might be overheard and make its

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<v Speaker 2>way back to the White House, and you know, they

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<v Speaker 2>could lose their jobs over it. People can't make long

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<v Speaker 2>term or even short term plans about their families' lives,

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<v Speaker 2>their professional lives. You know, some people listening to this,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, if you're like a Trump Trump fan, you

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<v Speaker 2>might say, well, that's good. I want I want federal

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<v Speaker 2>bureaucrats to be looking over their shoulders, right, And I

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<v Speaker 2>think that's just the point. That is what Trump has

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<v Speaker 2>tried to accomplish, and he has accomplished it. I think

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<v Speaker 2>it'll take some time for us to really see what

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<v Speaker 2>the long term consequences are of this kind of upending

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<v Speaker 2>of the federal bureaucracy. But at least right now, if

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<v Speaker 2>you're asking for like a temperature check, the mood is

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<v Speaker 2>very unnerved, very frightened, and the chaos, I think is

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<v Speaker 2>doing what it's intended to do.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to dig in a little bit deeper on

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<v Speaker 1>the question of fear and I want to do so

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<v Speaker 1>superficious excuse me superficially, and it just asks your valuation,

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<v Speaker 1>not putting you on the spot of trying to own

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<v Speaker 1>something that's complex with a with a simple declaration, but

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<v Speaker 1>just as a general statement, I'm going to give you

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<v Speaker 1>some categories and ask you to valuate those institutions as

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<v Speaker 1>whether they're filled with people as you described in the

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<v Speaker 1>federal government with fear. Does that hold inside the Republican

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<v Speaker 1>House conference? Are they afraid of Donald Trump?

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<v Speaker 2>I would say almost categorically yes. I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>they're living in fear day to day, but certainly it

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<v Speaker 2>is true, and I've done reporting on this. It was

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<v Speaker 2>actually in my book. It is certainly true that Republicans

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<v Speaker 2>in the House are afraid of political repercussions for crossing Trump.

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<v Speaker 2>Some are even afraid of, you know, the potential for

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<v Speaker 2>violence against them or their families if they cross Trump

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<v Speaker 2>and an especially highly visible way. So fear is definitely

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<v Speaker 2>a component of some Republicans that now some Republicans are

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<v Speaker 2>just fully on board with the Trump project and agenda,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't think they're operating from fear, but I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's you know, it would be hard to say

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<v Speaker 2>that fear doesn't play a part in Trump's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>stranglehold on House Republicans.

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<v Speaker 1>I would I would argue that they're all fully on

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<v Speaker 1>board with the project. Whether they get there, and how

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<v Speaker 1>they get there and down which tributary they flow into it,

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<v Speaker 1>I think is debatable, but let me let me, let

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<v Speaker 1>me keep going. So I think that's an interesting constituency

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<v Speaker 1>because they are beneficiaries of staying in line, probably at

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<v Speaker 1>a high level on the proverbial pyramid, and they face

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<v Speaker 1>real repercussion forever objecting to anything in the fear of

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<v Speaker 1>understanding that the benefit in everything goes away if they

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<v Speaker 1>if they do so. Is there a climate of fear

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<v Speaker 1>amongst House Democrats.

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<v Speaker 2>Hmmm, that's a more complicated question. I mean, I would

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<v Speaker 2>say fear. The fear there is not fear of Donald

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<v Speaker 2>Trump per se, more a fear born out of a

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<v Speaker 2>kind of general aimlessness or feeling of like not knowing

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<v Speaker 2>exactly how to respond to this moment. Again, it's hard

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<v Speaker 2>to say anything too sweeping, because I think there are

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<v Speaker 2>Democrats who are operating very boldly. I think there are

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<v Speaker 2>Democrats who are playing a long game. I think there

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<v Speaker 2>are also democrats a lot of Democrats, And you sense

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<v Speaker 2>this across in conversations with democratic political thinkers strategists that

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<v Speaker 2>just don't kind of know how they get out of

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<v Speaker 2>this moment, right they try. The feeling is, at least

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<v Speaker 2>among some we tried resistance politics all through the first

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<v Speaker 2>Trump term, and Trump is back right, and so should

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<v Speaker 2>we be triangulating? Should we be appeasing should we be

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<v Speaker 2>ignoring him? I mean, James Carville famously said recently that

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<v Speaker 2>Democrats should lay over and play dead for a while

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<v Speaker 2>and let the Trump administration implode on its own. I

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<v Speaker 2>think there are just a lot of different voices, a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of confusion about how to respond. So I think

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<v Speaker 2>that to the extent that fear is an element there,

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<v Speaker 2>it would be more about a fear of doing the

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<v Speaker 2>wrong thing right, of kind of taking the wrong political

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<v Speaker 2>course and seeing it backfire. And certainly I think you

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<v Speaker 2>sense that among House Democrats.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that there are House Democrats that are

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<v Speaker 1>afraid of Trump's mob, either online through a psychological prism

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<v Speaker 1>of wow, I'm constantly abused, and or the presence of

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<v Speaker 1>that mob manifesting crowd boys pardoned January sixth, rioters that

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<v Speaker 1>we read about some stories that have been published in

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<v Speaker 1>the last ten days talked about the anxiety of members.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there fear amongst our elected officials of the Trump mob.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it would be hard to be a member

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<v Speaker 2>of Congress who lived through January sixth and not have

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<v Speaker 2>some kind of trauma associated with that.

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<v Speaker 1>Not.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's kind of rational to take away from

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<v Speaker 2>that experience some base level fear of that happening again,

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<v Speaker 2>or something similar to it happening. I would also say

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<v Speaker 2>that there has been a general, a gradual rise, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm afraid to say it, but almost kind of normalization

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<v Speaker 2>of political violence in this country over the last decade

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<v Speaker 2>decade and a half that that has resulted in elected

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<v Speaker 2>officials and politicians walking around every day with the constant

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<v Speaker 2>fear in the back of their mind that they might

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<v Speaker 2>somebody might be trying to kill them. And I remember,

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<v Speaker 2>after even you know, the the assassin assassination attempt on

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<v Speaker 2>Trump last year, talking to Republicans and Democrats who said,

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<v Speaker 2>this is kind of the new reality that we all

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<v Speaker 2>live in. We're all afraid of somebody coming after us,

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<v Speaker 2>right like. And you know, certainly you could go back

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<v Speaker 2>to periods in American history where that was pretty normal,

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<v Speaker 2>and then we went through a period where it was not.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's a general fear that we might be going

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<v Speaker 2>back toward an era of political violence, assassination attempts, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think that fear is constantly lurking in the back

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<v Speaker 2>of our political leader's mind.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to specifically exempt The Atlantic in this next question,

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<v Speaker 1>even from consideration. I don't want to put you on

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<v Speaker 1>the spot there, but you're deeply respected, very established by

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<v Speaker 1>merit and earned reputation in Washington amongst journalists. Is their

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<v Speaker 1>fear of Donald Trump in the Washington newsroom of many

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<v Speaker 1>organizations by journalists.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean.

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<v Speaker 2>I I again don't want to speak categorically. There are

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<v Speaker 2>too many data points over the last few months that

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<v Speaker 2>you could point to without sensing that there is fear

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<v Speaker 2>guiding decisions being made at news organizations at some levels.

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<v Speaker 2>Right I would argue that more of that fear is

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<v Speaker 2>being sensed at the ownership and executive level than at

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<v Speaker 2>the newsroom and journalist level. I think we've seen, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>too many frankly, owners and executives at news organizations kind

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<v Speaker 2>of sweatily looking for ways to uh, you know, appease

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<v Speaker 2>or cozy up to the new administration, and uh, and yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's unnerving. That's unnerving for journalists. In my experience talking

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<v Speaker 2>to my fellow journalists in Washington, there's more fear about

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<v Speaker 2>what the bosses will do, their their own bosses will do,

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<v Speaker 2>and how that will affect them as opposed to you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Trump coming after them. There is there is talk about that.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, let's let's be real, like, of course, there's

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<v Speaker 2>talk about what especially, you know, as we were leading

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<v Speaker 2>up to the election, in the weeks after, there was

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<v Speaker 2>there was plenty of discussion in newsrooms about what precautions

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<v Speaker 2>should we be taking, how should we protect ourselves against

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the Justice Department for example, coming after us,

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<v Speaker 2>or Trump putting us on our enemies list. I think

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<v Speaker 2>if you're an especially high profile political journalist who's tangled

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<v Speaker 2>with Trump, you have reason to be concerned. So, no question,

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<v Speaker 2>those those those conversations are happening. But but I would

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<v Speaker 2>say that the what what kind of amplifies that fear

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<v Speaker 2>and what spreads it is the feeling that your owners

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<v Speaker 2>and bosses don't have your backs, right that that's where

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<v Speaker 2>you get really worried. Speaking as a reporter who's worked

0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.560
<v Speaker 2>at a bunch of places and for a bunch of

0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:54.480
<v Speaker 2>editors and owners who I really did feel had my back.

0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.440
<v Speaker 2>I can tell you like that is a crucial component

0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:02.760
<v Speaker 2>to being able to do, you know, fearless adversarial journalism

0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:09.639
<v Speaker 2>against you know, against the backdrop of powerful and illiberal

0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.400
<v Speaker 2>leaders who are who are calling out the media every day.

0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.199
<v Speaker 2>But you need you need that support. You need to

0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.199
<v Speaker 2>feel like your owners are going to spend money to

0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:23.360
<v Speaker 2>uh and you know, against a frivolous lawsuit or whatever.

0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:27.600
<v Speaker 2>You need to feel like you're the top editors have

0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.960
<v Speaker 2>your back, that they're not gonna kind of cowtow to

0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.480
<v Speaker 2>somebody who complains about your reporting. You just need to

0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:36.400
<v Speaker 2>have that sense of support. And I think too many

0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:38.359
<v Speaker 2>journalists right now don't have that feeling.

0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:44.080
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to put words in your mouth at all. Well,

0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:48.000
<v Speaker 1>what I just heard you say is that there is

0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:53.000
<v Speaker 1>a chill in the air in America's newsrooms, and it's

0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:59.400
<v Speaker 1>driven by two factors, maybe three. The first is Trump's

0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:06.480
<v Speaker 1>aggress and his aggressive statements of retaliation and retribution made

0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:16.080
<v Speaker 1>against the ownership of media companies, who regard those media

0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:24.040
<v Speaker 1>companies as appendages to great empires that are at the

0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:34.000
<v Speaker 1>periphery that were totems of ego and then until they

0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:42.080
<v Speaker 1>became liabilities of empire. And now the journalist does not

0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:45.920
<v Speaker 1>feel like that they have their back covered by management,

0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:55.800
<v Speaker 1>and that, combined with Trump's arbitrary aggressiveness, there's been a

0:18:55.960 --> 0:19:00.679
<v Speaker 1>very acute change in media culture very quickly in the

0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:08.919
<v Speaker 1>country that people are now very conscious of if I

0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:15.080
<v Speaker 1>write something, there's a consequence. So what you're saying, you put.

0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:17.560
<v Speaker 2>It that way, I would say, and I think that's

0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.240
<v Speaker 2>that's a totally fair way of describing what's happening.

0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:20.760
<v Speaker 3>I guess my.

0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:24.320
<v Speaker 2>The the only caveat I'd add is that while there

0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:28.000
<v Speaker 2>may be a chill in the air as you put it,

0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:33.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to overstate overstate this because I still

0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:37.879
<v Speaker 2>think there are so many reporters doing really good challenging uh,

0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:43.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, reporting, holding power to account, UH, documenting what

0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.800
<v Speaker 2>the administration is doing, what dog is doing, UH, doing

0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.159
<v Speaker 2>tough stories. There are a lot of newsrooms, even in

0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:51.480
<v Speaker 2>some of those same newsrooms, where there is a fear

0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.439
<v Speaker 2>of what management is up to and UH and you know,

0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:56.560
<v Speaker 2>a fear that they might not have their back. Some

0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:58.920
<v Speaker 2>of a lot of reporters are still willing to take

0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.800
<v Speaker 2>the risk to to do solid reporting because they care

0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.080
<v Speaker 2>about it that much. Right, So I don't want to

0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:08.879
<v Speaker 2>say that our whole you know, journalistic class has sold

0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.560
<v Speaker 2>out and is terrified and you know, cowering and fear.

0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:15.600
<v Speaker 2>I just think that we're up against different dynamics than

0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:17.960
<v Speaker 2>we were in the first Trump term, where we had

0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.879
<v Speaker 2>the same kind of rhetoric coming out of the White House.

0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:26.720
<v Speaker 2>But back then it felt like that rhetoric was emboldening

0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:30.520
<v Speaker 2>publications and even their owners right like it. It was

0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:34.040
<v Speaker 2>kind of a dare to like go to to really

0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:36.920
<v Speaker 2>do great work, and a lot of great work was done.

0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:41.200
<v Speaker 2>And my fear is that this time around, at the

0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:44.440
<v Speaker 2>ownership level of management level, there is not the same

0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:49.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of defiance that's motivating the decisions that are being made.

0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:55.680
<v Speaker 1>There is a seminal quote that will be at the

0:20:55.800 --> 0:21:00.200
<v Speaker 1>front of history's recollection of this era when it comes

0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:05.720
<v Speaker 1>to any study of journalism and the collapse of integrity

0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:11.320
<v Speaker 1>that so many American people feel and the disorientation around fact,

0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:16.600
<v Speaker 1>and it will be what Selena Zito said very famously,

0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:25.280
<v Speaker 1>which is about some people take Trump literally and others

0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:30.879
<v Speaker 1>taking him seriously, and the difference between the two. And

0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:35.320
<v Speaker 1>so what I just heard you described is that Trump

0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:43.520
<v Speaker 1>was taken literally but not seriously at one point by

0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:50.080
<v Speaker 1>the American media. But Trump is now taken literally and

0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:56.520
<v Speaker 1>seriously by the American media and probably more importantly by

0:21:56.560 --> 0:22:00.080
<v Speaker 1>the ownership groups of the American media the corporate me

0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:04.800
<v Speaker 1>today than he was then. And that's all the difference

0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:05.919
<v Speaker 1>in the moment.

0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:09.160
<v Speaker 2>I would also add that I'm not sure that they're

0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:13.200
<v Speaker 2>wrong to take him more seriously now than they did

0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:15.440
<v Speaker 2>in the first term. That doesn't mean they're making the

0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:19.040
<v Speaker 2>right decisions or calculations based on that. But he clearly

0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:23.560
<v Speaker 2>is His administration manifestly is more serious in the second

0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:25.879
<v Speaker 2>term than it was in the first term. He has

0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:28.479
<v Speaker 2>spent a lot of time, He and the people around

0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:31.000
<v Speaker 2>him spent a lot of time making plans. You know,

0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:34.320
<v Speaker 2>we see this from all the executive orders he signed

0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:36.960
<v Speaker 2>in the first week's Project twenty twenty five, et.

0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:37.879
<v Speaker 3>Cetera like it.

0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:42.439
<v Speaker 2>It is manifestly, self evidently clear that he is a

0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:49.200
<v Speaker 2>more serious political figure. Whether you find him seriously threatening

0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:54.920
<v Speaker 2>to American democracy or you know serious, you know, champion

0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:58.160
<v Speaker 2>of whatever you believe in, he is a more serious figure.

0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:00.840
<v Speaker 2>His administration is more serious, and there is a reason

0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:04.560
<v Speaker 2>to take his threats more seriously this time than the

0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:06.000
<v Speaker 2>first four years he was president.

0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:12.919
<v Speaker 1>Objectively what you just said, and it seems right to

0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:21.399
<v Speaker 1>me by way of observation analytically, which is that any

0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:31.280
<v Speaker 1>person rationally observing what's happening has to impose a lot

0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:38.879
<v Speaker 1>of weight of denial into the analysis to come to

0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:43.920
<v Speaker 1>a conclusion that Donald Trump does not mean the things

0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:48.000
<v Speaker 1>that he is doing. Yeah, fair point.

0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:51.480
<v Speaker 3>No, Yeah, I think that I would fully agree with that.

0:23:52.240 --> 0:23:56.240
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I have one last question about about fear, and

0:23:56.280 --> 0:23:57.679
<v Speaker 1>then I want to I want to get into the

0:23:57.720 --> 0:24:01.280
<v Speaker 1>Fox News stuff because I think fear is in the

0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:05.920
<v Speaker 1>end the commodity of Fox News. And there's this tremendous

0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:11.960
<v Speaker 1>family drama, ammorality play that you wrote about so exquisitely,

0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:14.880
<v Speaker 1>and I want to get get into talking about it.

0:24:14.920 --> 0:24:20.080
<v Speaker 1>But Didmitt Romney leave Washington DC afraid?

0:24:20.640 --> 0:24:23.439
<v Speaker 2>You'd have to ask him that question. If you asked him,

0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:25.560
<v Speaker 2>or if I asked him, he would say no, he

0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:30.119
<v Speaker 2>would say that he was not afraid that you know,

0:24:30.160 --> 0:24:32.879
<v Speaker 2>he had his own perfectly legitimate reasons for retiring. Is

0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:35.560
<v Speaker 2>an ins late seventies, His wife is you know, has

0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:38.120
<v Speaker 2>multiple sclerosis. He wants to spend his last good years

0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:42.720
<v Speaker 2>with her and his family. All that that said, I

0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:45.960
<v Speaker 2>know people around him, very close to him, who are

0:24:46.000 --> 0:24:50.800
<v Speaker 2>afraid for him and who believe that I don't know

0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:53.639
<v Speaker 2>that he that would say that. Maybe he wouldn't be

0:24:53.960 --> 0:24:57.320
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't describe himself as acting out of fear. But he's acting.

0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:04.480
<v Speaker 2>He is pragmatically and practically practically aware of the political

0:25:04.520 --> 0:25:07.600
<v Speaker 2>situation that we're in with a president who has an

0:25:07.720 --> 0:25:11.959
<v Speaker 2>enemy's list and a willingness to use the levers of

0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:16.280
<v Speaker 2>government power to go after those those enemies, and that Romney,

0:25:16.720 --> 0:25:19.879
<v Speaker 2>while maybe not at the top of that list, is

0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:23.159
<v Speaker 2>probably somewhere on that list as a Republican apostate, and

0:25:23.480 --> 0:25:26.240
<v Speaker 2>I should mention in my book the paperback edition of

0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:29.399
<v Speaker 2>my book, I interviewed him again last year. I was like,

0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:33.400
<v Speaker 2>I think last spring, and I asked him about kind of,

0:25:33.880 --> 0:25:36.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, if Trump wins, what does this mean for you,

0:25:36.280 --> 0:25:38.359
<v Speaker 2>what does it mean for your family? And he tried

0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:40.320
<v Speaker 2>to downplay it at first, and he said, you know,

0:25:41.760 --> 0:25:43.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, I'm not spending a lot of time

0:25:43.960 --> 0:25:46.879
<v Speaker 2>thinking about that. But then I kept pushing it, and

0:25:46.880 --> 0:25:49.640
<v Speaker 2>then he kind of got a little upset and like irritated,

0:25:50.080 --> 0:25:53.119
<v Speaker 2>and he finally kind of just snapped at me and said,

0:25:53.240 --> 0:25:55.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, I don't know what you want me to say.

0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:59.720
<v Speaker 2>I have five kids, five daughters in law, you know,

0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:04.400
<v Speaker 2>dozens of grandkids, like I can't protect all of them.

0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:06.239
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how to protect all of them. And

0:26:06.280 --> 0:26:08.920
<v Speaker 2>it was an interesting kind of window, just a glimpse

0:26:09.000 --> 0:26:12.560
<v Speaker 2>into the psychology of somebody who has been taken pretty

0:26:12.560 --> 0:26:16.600
<v Speaker 2>courageous independent stands in the Trump era as like a

0:26:16.640 --> 0:26:21.200
<v Speaker 2>dissident in the party, kind of reckoning with the reality

0:26:21.800 --> 0:26:24.800
<v Speaker 2>of where we're at and realizing that there's only so

0:26:24.960 --> 0:26:28.560
<v Speaker 2>much he can do to protect the people he cares about.

0:26:29.080 --> 0:26:31.800
<v Speaker 2>With somebody like Trump in the Oval office.

0:26:31.440 --> 0:26:34.280
<v Speaker 1>Do you think that there is any chance we will

0:26:34.400 --> 0:26:39.760
<v Speaker 1>see in the next two years time? In address by

0:26:39.920 --> 0:26:45.120
<v Speaker 1>Mitt Romney somewhere in the country, rising to meet this

0:26:45.320 --> 0:26:50.479
<v Speaker 1>moment as a matter of conscience outside the realm of

0:26:50.560 --> 0:26:57.200
<v Speaker 1>his political ambitions, now in the past, where he simply

0:26:58.119 --> 0:27:03.800
<v Speaker 1>as a man who any millions of people regard as

0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:11.720
<v Speaker 1>a person of tremendous stature and rected to speak in

0:27:11.800 --> 0:27:15.840
<v Speaker 1>what many scores of tens of millions, I suggest will

0:27:16.160 --> 0:27:21.720
<v Speaker 1>we'll soon regard together as a as a really deep crisis.

0:27:21.760 --> 0:27:26.000
<v Speaker 1>Will we ever hear from him again in any consequential way,

0:27:26.560 --> 0:27:31.440
<v Speaker 1>or is Mitt Romney in a state of retirement and repose.

0:27:31.880 --> 0:27:33.080
<v Speaker 3>It's a good question.

0:27:33.160 --> 0:27:35.280
<v Speaker 2>I feel like ever since my book came out in

0:27:35.320 --> 0:27:38.520
<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty three, every interview I do, people are asking,

0:27:38.560 --> 0:27:40.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, what's he going to do next? Is he

0:27:40.200 --> 0:27:42.879
<v Speaker 2>going to say something? Is he going to speak out again?

0:27:42.960 --> 0:27:46.479
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I don't know, is the short answer.

0:27:46.720 --> 0:27:51.760
<v Speaker 2>We actually saw him make his first public statement since

0:27:52.080 --> 0:27:56.679
<v Speaker 2>leaving the Senate just a week or two ago, after

0:27:56.760 --> 0:28:02.960
<v Speaker 2>that Oval Office meeting with Zelensky and with Trump and Vance,

0:28:02.960 --> 0:28:06.480
<v Speaker 2>and you know, he said, we must not let petty

0:28:06.600 --> 0:28:09.639
<v Speaker 2>personal differences get in the way of the reality that

0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:14.320
<v Speaker 2>we're facing, which is an autocratic regime invading a sovereign

0:28:14.400 --> 0:28:18.119
<v Speaker 2>nation and this country deserves our protection, et cetera. It's

0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:22.040
<v Speaker 2>all the things you would expect him to say. I

0:28:22.080 --> 0:28:25.119
<v Speaker 2>don't know exactly what compelled him in that moment to

0:28:25.160 --> 0:28:28.720
<v Speaker 2>speak out. It probably was some combination of just repulsion

0:28:29.040 --> 0:28:31.520
<v Speaker 2>at what he was seeing in the Oval Office and

0:28:31.880 --> 0:28:35.280
<v Speaker 2>a strong feeling that he needed to say something. I

0:28:35.280 --> 0:28:37.919
<v Speaker 2>think at the same time, He's always weighing does this

0:28:37.920 --> 0:28:39.320
<v Speaker 2>stuff make any difference?

0:28:39.400 --> 0:28:40.160
<v Speaker 3>Right? He put that.

0:28:40.080 --> 0:28:43.640
<v Speaker 2>Statement out, it got some coverage, Did it move the

0:28:43.680 --> 0:28:46.760
<v Speaker 2>needle at all? You say that millions of people look

0:28:46.840 --> 0:28:48.440
<v Speaker 2>up to him, and I think that's true. I mean,

0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:52.480
<v Speaker 2>I also think that he believes he has never had

0:28:52.600 --> 0:28:55.760
<v Speaker 2>less influence in Republican politics than he does now, and

0:28:55.840 --> 0:28:59.440
<v Speaker 2>so he asked a way that reality against the costs

0:28:59.440 --> 0:29:03.400
<v Speaker 2>of speaking out. But my guess is, if you were

0:29:03.440 --> 0:29:06.440
<v Speaker 2>asking me to take bets, I'm I'm not a gambling man,

0:29:06.520 --> 0:29:08.680
<v Speaker 2>but I would guess that it's not the last that

0:29:08.680 --> 0:29:10.720
<v Speaker 2>we've heard of Met Romney. I would I would guess

0:29:10.720 --> 0:29:12.120
<v Speaker 2>that we'll we'll hear from him again.

0:29:13.360 --> 0:29:15.240
<v Speaker 1>I just want to say before we turn to the

0:29:15.840 --> 0:29:19.040
<v Speaker 1>to the story of Fox News that Romney a reckoning

0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:25.000
<v Speaker 1>I think is interesting, a psychological portrait that you can

0:29:25.120 --> 0:29:29.520
<v Speaker 1>read of a complex person in public life. I think

0:29:29.560 --> 0:29:34.000
<v Speaker 1>it's an extraordinary portrait of a man in a season,

0:29:34.640 --> 0:29:39.200
<v Speaker 1>but also the institution of the US Senate in a

0:29:39.240 --> 0:29:45.320
<v Speaker 1>particular moment in time, just on the edge of what

0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:50.120
<v Speaker 1>I would argue is a real fundamental collapse now into

0:29:50.200 --> 0:29:55.480
<v Speaker 1>a pile of bureau at least temporarily of both privilege

0:29:55.840 --> 0:30:00.160
<v Speaker 1>and control by the executive branch to which it it's

0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:05.280
<v Speaker 1>a coequal check and balance against, at least within the

0:30:05.320 --> 0:30:10.360
<v Speaker 1>constitutional imagination of our of our of our ancestors. And

0:30:10.440 --> 0:30:13.040
<v Speaker 1>so it's a it's an incredible book. But one of

0:30:13.080 --> 0:30:17.160
<v Speaker 1>the things I walked away from that book astonished by

0:30:18.040 --> 0:30:22.959
<v Speaker 1>was that point that Mitt Romney has a lack of

0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:31.920
<v Speaker 1>self awareness about how much Mitt Romney's words could mean

0:30:33.920 --> 0:30:39.400
<v Speaker 1>to so many people after so much time in office,

0:30:39.640 --> 0:30:45.680
<v Speaker 1>that something more down and edging him like water on

0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:52.040
<v Speaker 1>a rock, that created this doubt in his mind, this

0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:59.080
<v Speaker 1>voice of doubt inside of Mitt Romney's mind about the

0:30:59.120 --> 0:31:03.120
<v Speaker 1>ability of Admit Romney to roar like a lion. And

0:31:03.240 --> 0:31:08.520
<v Speaker 1>I don't doubt it right that he could have that

0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:12.160
<v Speaker 1>he can, and he's got a couple of roarers left.

0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:18.600
<v Speaker 1>But that doubt I found just to be fascinating. I

0:31:18.680 --> 0:31:22.520
<v Speaker 1>want to get into this Atlantic piece that you did,

0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:31.360
<v Speaker 1>which is another astounding piece of psychological portraiture, family portraiture

0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:37.600
<v Speaker 1>or portraiture of power. This is real life succession, This

0:31:37.640 --> 0:31:43.720
<v Speaker 1>is the Murdoch family. And to set the stage that

0:31:44.640 --> 0:31:50.680
<v Speaker 1>very wealthy people have organized their affairs in series of

0:31:51.240 --> 0:31:57.360
<v Speaker 1>inner linking financial arrangements that seek to avoid taxes and

0:31:57.480 --> 0:32:03.920
<v Speaker 1>allow for the salubrious intergenerational transfer of wealth. And there

0:32:03.960 --> 0:32:09.280
<v Speaker 1>are revocable trusts, and there are irrevocable trusts. And one

0:32:09.320 --> 0:32:15.400
<v Speaker 1>of the features of an irrevocable trust is its irrevocability.

0:32:16.080 --> 0:32:21.480
<v Speaker 1>And so there is an irrevocable trust that Rupert Murdoch

0:32:22.520 --> 0:32:28.360
<v Speaker 1>litigated against his children in court and lost the case,

0:32:29.680 --> 0:32:34.000
<v Speaker 1>meaning that upon the death of this ninety five year

0:32:34.040 --> 0:32:41.360
<v Speaker 1>old man, he is unable to fulfill his living intention,

0:32:42.720 --> 0:32:48.480
<v Speaker 1>which is to bestow control of it to the child

0:32:48.760 --> 0:32:53.479
<v Speaker 1>he has selected as his business heir, which is his

0:32:54.240 --> 0:33:04.040
<v Speaker 1>son Lachlan, and not his dissident James, who now with

0:33:04.240 --> 0:33:10.560
<v Speaker 1>the other children. If I understand your story correctly, at

0:33:10.600 --> 0:33:17.400
<v Speaker 1>the moment the Pope dies, blessings will be said, and

0:33:17.520 --> 0:33:23.240
<v Speaker 1>the fisherman's ring, Peter's ring will be taken from his singer,

0:33:23.560 --> 0:33:27.440
<v Speaker 1>from his finger, and the seal of Saint Peter cracked

0:33:27.440 --> 0:33:31.760
<v Speaker 1>from it. And this scene is played out in conclave.

0:33:32.200 --> 0:33:39.520
<v Speaker 1>When his Majesty the King passes in an instant, the

0:33:39.680 --> 0:33:47.560
<v Speaker 1>sovereign is dead, Long live the King at that instant

0:33:49.520 --> 0:33:56.240
<v Speaker 1>which all of humanity shares. When Rupert Murdoch's brain fires

0:33:56.280 --> 0:34:01.160
<v Speaker 1>its last electrical impulse, heart beats a final time, his

0:34:01.600 --> 0:34:07.440
<v Speaker 1>lungs fill in exhale, his last raph. He is gone.

0:34:09.640 --> 0:34:16.279
<v Speaker 1>It seems to me reading your story, Jesse Waters is

0:34:16.360 --> 0:34:22.120
<v Speaker 1>gonna wind up like a park Ranger underdoge scrutiny.

0:34:28.680 --> 0:34:32.200
<v Speaker 2>I won't make quite that bold of prediction, but I

0:34:32.239 --> 0:34:39.080
<v Speaker 2>will say that it does look like as things stand now,

0:34:39.280 --> 0:34:44.719
<v Speaker 2>pending appeals in the litigation and various other possibilities, if

0:34:44.719 --> 0:34:46.919
<v Speaker 2>things play out the way we think they'll play out,

0:34:47.360 --> 0:34:50.800
<v Speaker 2>change will be coming to Fox News when Rupert dies.

0:34:51.440 --> 0:34:53.320
<v Speaker 3>I think that is fair to say yes.

0:34:53.960 --> 0:34:57.400
<v Speaker 2>And the reason is you alluded to it that the

0:34:57.480 --> 0:35:00.400
<v Speaker 2>way that the fam the Murdoch Family trust is currently

0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:04.399
<v Speaker 2>set up, when Rupert dies, control of the empire that

0:35:04.440 --> 0:35:07.480
<v Speaker 2>includes Fox News. It also includes Dow Jones, the Wall

0:35:07.480 --> 0:35:10.200
<v Speaker 2>Street Journal, a bunch of British and Australia newspapers, and

0:35:10.200 --> 0:35:13.480
<v Speaker 2>TV channels, et cetera. The you know, the Fox network,

0:35:14.520 --> 0:35:18.719
<v Speaker 2>but the empire will be split. The control of the

0:35:18.760 --> 0:35:23.440
<v Speaker 2>empire will be split four ways, equally among Rupert's four

0:35:23.480 --> 0:35:28.400
<v Speaker 2>oldest children, Lachlan, James, Elizabeth and Prudence.

0:35:28.160 --> 0:35:28.560
<v Speaker 1>And.

0:35:30.239 --> 0:35:35.359
<v Speaker 2>The current kind of makeup of those four. Lachlan is

0:35:35.400 --> 0:35:39.839
<v Speaker 2>the Rupert's mini me. He is a conservative ideologue by

0:35:39.840 --> 0:35:43.719
<v Speaker 2>all accounts. He believes in the way that his father

0:35:43.760 --> 0:35:47.200
<v Speaker 2>has built the empire, and that's why Rupert chose him

0:35:47.239 --> 0:35:52.799
<v Speaker 2>as his successor. James and his two sisters are much

0:35:52.880 --> 0:35:56.759
<v Speaker 2>less conservative and to varying degrees centrist to liberal, and

0:35:56.880 --> 0:36:00.399
<v Speaker 2>more importantly, are appalled by some of the things that

0:36:00.480 --> 0:36:04.560
<v Speaker 2>Fox News has done and other elements of the Empire

0:36:04.560 --> 0:36:07.719
<v Speaker 2>have done, and they believe serious reforms need to be

0:36:07.840 --> 0:36:12.960
<v Speaker 2>made to these businesses to make them responsible participants in

0:36:13.000 --> 0:36:18.960
<v Speaker 2>the public discourse, international politics, media, et cetera. And it

0:36:19.000 --> 0:36:21.040
<v Speaker 2>looks like the three of them will be able to

0:36:21.120 --> 0:36:25.160
<v Speaker 2>outvote Lachlan on major decisions. And so that is why

0:36:25.640 --> 0:36:28.360
<v Speaker 2>there's been so much attention paid to this family drama,

0:36:28.440 --> 0:36:32.080
<v Speaker 2>why The Atlantic put this thirteen thousand words story on

0:36:32.120 --> 0:36:36.760
<v Speaker 2>the cover, Because while it is a very juicy family drama,

0:36:36.800 --> 0:36:39.680
<v Speaker 2>a morality play, like you said, and I think there's

0:36:39.680 --> 0:36:41.919
<v Speaker 2>a lot of pathos and really tragedy in it. It's

0:36:42.200 --> 0:36:47.160
<v Speaker 2>almost Shakespearean in nature, it has very real stakes for

0:36:47.640 --> 0:36:52.239
<v Speaker 2>American politics and American democracy, and we're going to find

0:36:52.280 --> 0:36:54.120
<v Speaker 2>out what that means pretty soon.

0:36:54.200 --> 0:36:56.440
<v Speaker 1>Probably what is his condition?

0:36:57.400 --> 0:37:02.160
<v Speaker 2>Ruberts, Yes, as far as I know, healthy or as

0:37:02.200 --> 0:37:04.319
<v Speaker 2>healthy as he can be. But he's ninety four years old,

0:37:04.600 --> 0:37:09.040
<v Speaker 2>so you know, I mean, just actuarily speaking, it's only

0:37:09.080 --> 0:37:12.080
<v Speaker 2>a matter of time before he passes away. But I

0:37:12.120 --> 0:37:14.840
<v Speaker 2>don't know of any imminent illness that is threatening his

0:37:15.280 --> 0:37:17.040
<v Speaker 2>life right now?

0:37:17.080 --> 0:37:21.280
<v Speaker 1>Do the children? When you talk about the four parts,

0:37:21.320 --> 0:37:29.480
<v Speaker 1>are they apportioning as these trusts or structured pieces of

0:37:29.640 --> 0:37:34.360
<v Speaker 1>bricks and mortar in an empire between themselves one part

0:37:34.440 --> 0:37:36.879
<v Speaker 1>for you, one part for you, one for you, one

0:37:36.960 --> 0:37:40.959
<v Speaker 1>for you, or is it three against one seventy five

0:37:41.080 --> 0:37:44.759
<v Speaker 1>percent control of the vote, where fifty plus one is

0:37:44.800 --> 0:37:45.760
<v Speaker 1>the magic number.

0:37:45.840 --> 0:37:46.239
<v Speaker 3>That's right.

0:37:46.520 --> 0:37:55.440
<v Speaker 2>So there's the board that constitutes the trust currently includes Rupert,

0:37:55.480 --> 0:37:58.359
<v Speaker 2>who has four votes, and then each of his four

0:37:58.400 --> 0:38:02.120
<v Speaker 2>oldest children has one. Once Rupert dies, his four votes

0:38:02.200 --> 0:38:06.360
<v Speaker 2>go away, and those the one vote that each of

0:38:06.400 --> 0:38:09.719
<v Speaker 2>the four has belongs to them, and so they have

0:38:09.800 --> 0:38:13.480
<v Speaker 2>supervision over the entire empire. And it's a little more

0:38:13.480 --> 0:38:16.719
<v Speaker 2>complicated than that, but basically, yes, it's not like you

0:38:16.800 --> 0:38:19.319
<v Speaker 2>get this fiefdom, I get this one. It's more that

0:38:19.520 --> 0:38:24.080
<v Speaker 2>decisions are made by the four of them together and

0:38:24.280 --> 0:38:27.600
<v Speaker 2>right now, just looking at it, it looks like James

0:38:27.600 --> 0:38:30.280
<v Speaker 2>and his sisters are on one side on most issues.

0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:31.359
<v Speaker 3>Lachlan is on the other.

0:38:31.760 --> 0:38:35.040
<v Speaker 1>So I have an ambition. I've never expressed it before,

0:38:35.800 --> 0:38:38.960
<v Speaker 1>and since these companies are all dying, I'm not going

0:38:39.040 --> 0:38:41.959
<v Speaker 1>to get to live it. But I think I would

0:38:41.960 --> 0:38:45.200
<v Speaker 1>have been a great president of a cable news company.

0:38:47.680 --> 0:38:51.840
<v Speaker 1>But what you're saying, uh huh, is that the Murdoch

0:38:52.000 --> 0:38:55.879
<v Speaker 1>siblings could say, at the moment of death, we want

0:38:55.960 --> 0:38:59.200
<v Speaker 1>to make Steve Schmidt the president of Fox News.

0:38:59.320 --> 0:39:04.400
<v Speaker 2>Are you your application right are to them?

0:39:04.640 --> 0:39:07.880
<v Speaker 1>I would, I would, but but that's what we're talking about.

0:39:08.000 --> 0:39:13.560
<v Speaker 1>Whomever it is now, Juseanne Scott, you're fired, right, you're

0:39:13.640 --> 0:39:19.879
<v Speaker 1>coming in. And so, for example, the new Fox News could,

0:39:20.640 --> 0:39:26.240
<v Speaker 1>if the siblings decided, open up the files of every

0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:32.880
<v Speaker 1>sexual harassment settlement misconduct case of every Fox News anchor

0:39:32.960 --> 0:39:37.360
<v Speaker 1>famous person going back twenty years. You know, whether it's O'Reilly,

0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:41.600
<v Speaker 1>you know, fifty sixty million in settlements, Kimberly Guilfoil. I

0:39:41.600 --> 0:39:45.240
<v Speaker 1>mean they could if they so chose, and their council

0:39:45.400 --> 0:39:50.280
<v Speaker 1>let them, Hey, we are going to open up open

0:39:50.400 --> 0:39:56.640
<v Speaker 1>kimono this institution and let everybody have the peakaboo inside

0:39:57.120 --> 0:40:00.520
<v Speaker 1>of what went on here. They will have that type

0:40:00.560 --> 0:40:04.480
<v Speaker 1>of revelatory power should they choose to do it. They

0:40:04.520 --> 0:40:10.960
<v Speaker 1>could ask, for example, if they wanted to at Fox News,

0:40:12.520 --> 0:40:15.040
<v Speaker 1>say to the Wall Street Journal, we'd like you to

0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:19.680
<v Speaker 1>investigate this organization, open kimono and report back.

0:40:20.120 --> 0:40:23.960
<v Speaker 2>In theory yes, and I'm you added in boring caveat,

0:40:24.120 --> 0:40:26.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, depending on what their council says, I'm sure

0:40:27.000 --> 0:40:29.719
<v Speaker 2>that there are all kinds of legal complexities involved here.

0:40:30.040 --> 0:40:31.839
<v Speaker 2>What I will say, though, having spent a lot of

0:40:31.840 --> 0:40:36.080
<v Speaker 2>time talking to James, who, by the way, spent twenty

0:40:36.160 --> 0:40:40.680
<v Speaker 2>years working for the family business before his eventual falling

0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:43.839
<v Speaker 2>out an estrangement from his father, is that I don't

0:40:43.880 --> 0:40:48.080
<v Speaker 2>see him as like an as a particularly activist figure

0:40:48.600 --> 0:40:52.840
<v Speaker 2>in this sense, right. I don't see him going taking

0:40:52.880 --> 0:40:58.000
<v Speaker 2>over and trying to sabotage Fox News or you know,

0:40:59.080 --> 0:41:03.440
<v Speaker 2>meaningfully hurt these companies to make a point about how

0:41:03.440 --> 0:41:07.880
<v Speaker 2>they've been run. As disillusioned as he is by the

0:41:07.880 --> 0:41:11.279
<v Speaker 2>way that they've been run, I think that what's more

0:41:11.400 --> 0:41:14.880
<v Speaker 2>likely is there would be leadership changes in key ways.

0:41:15.239 --> 0:41:20.480
<v Speaker 2>There would be you know, kind of company wide reforms

0:41:21.480 --> 0:41:25.920
<v Speaker 2>that deal with things like corporate governance and editorial guard rails,

0:41:26.040 --> 0:41:29.560
<v Speaker 2>journalistic guard rails. He would want to see Fox News

0:41:29.680 --> 0:41:35.480
<v Speaker 2>run like a true news organization that didn't, for example,

0:41:36.000 --> 0:41:40.600
<v Speaker 2>broadcast lies about who won the last election, or put

0:41:40.640 --> 0:41:45.279
<v Speaker 2>on quack doctors to spread vaccine misinformation during a pandemic,

0:41:46.000 --> 0:41:50.000
<v Speaker 2>or platform an oil shill and let them pretend that

0:41:50.000 --> 0:41:53.319
<v Speaker 2>they're an expert on climate change. Like those things, to

0:41:53.400 --> 0:41:57.120
<v Speaker 2>him are not political things. And he's been clear every

0:41:57.200 --> 0:41:59.520
<v Speaker 2>time we've talked about this that he doesn't want to

0:41:59.520 --> 0:42:02.319
<v Speaker 2>turn Fox News into MSNBC. He's not saying Fox News

0:42:02.360 --> 0:42:06.120
<v Speaker 2>should become a liberal network. He thinks Fox could continue

0:42:06.120 --> 0:42:10.360
<v Speaker 2>to report from a center right perspective, but do it responsibly,

0:42:10.880 --> 0:42:17.440
<v Speaker 2>with responsible corporate leadership and newsroom, you know, principles and

0:42:17.520 --> 0:42:21.080
<v Speaker 2>values that they abide by. And would that mean some

0:42:21.320 --> 0:42:25.440
<v Speaker 2>change in the way that the coverage is done. Absolutely,

0:42:26.239 --> 0:42:29.479
<v Speaker 2>Would that mean change in talent? He wouldn't go there

0:42:29.600 --> 0:42:32.680
<v Speaker 2>with me, but we've seen reporting elsewhere. I think Brian

0:42:32.760 --> 0:42:37.000
<v Speaker 2>Stelter reported that many of the Fox News stars have

0:42:37.080 --> 0:42:40.560
<v Speaker 2>already started to kind of make plans amongst themselves for

0:42:40.640 --> 0:42:43.120
<v Speaker 2>what to do in the event that James takes over.

0:42:43.400 --> 0:42:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Or James and his sisters are in control, so that

0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:48.319
<v Speaker 2>I would imagine there would be changes at the talent

0:42:48.400 --> 0:42:52.600
<v Speaker 2>level too, But to be clear, that's me speculating. James

0:42:52.680 --> 0:42:56.160
<v Speaker 2>was always careful about going into too much detail about

0:42:56.200 --> 0:42:58.839
<v Speaker 2>what changes he'd want to make, first because he thinks

0:42:58.880 --> 0:43:02.719
<v Speaker 2>it's not appropriate yet. The second because he also he

0:43:02.800 --> 0:43:05.840
<v Speaker 2>recognizes that it's something that his father could weaponize and

0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:11.000
<v Speaker 2>the litigation that's going on because basically Rupert's chief argument

0:43:11.280 --> 0:43:15.479
<v Speaker 2>in this attempt to rewrite the family trust is that

0:43:16.560 --> 0:43:19.960
<v Speaker 2>if Lachlin isn't allowed to have full control of the empire,

0:43:20.120 --> 0:43:23.400
<v Speaker 2>when Rupert's gone, James and his sisters will take the

0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:27.479
<v Speaker 2>value of the companies by moderating its politics, defanging them,

0:43:27.960 --> 0:43:32.760
<v Speaker 2>and making them more responsible, basically, and so so James

0:43:32.840 --> 0:43:36.480
<v Speaker 2>is wary of giving too much detail that Rupert could

0:43:36.520 --> 0:43:38.400
<v Speaker 2>then use in this ongoing litigation.

0:43:39.840 --> 0:43:41.560
<v Speaker 1>Is James ashamed of his last name?

0:43:43.360 --> 0:43:46.400
<v Speaker 3>I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I don't know. You'd have to

0:43:46.440 --> 0:43:47.920
<v Speaker 3>ask him, But I can say.

0:43:47.719 --> 0:43:49.720
<v Speaker 1>That he's James ashamed of his father.

0:43:50.920 --> 0:43:54.520
<v Speaker 2>I think he is ashamed of some of the associations

0:43:54.640 --> 0:43:57.719
<v Speaker 2>that the Murdoch name now has and the things that

0:43:57.760 --> 0:44:01.960
<v Speaker 2>have been done under the banner of his last name,

0:44:02.200 --> 0:44:03.400
<v Speaker 2>the Murdoch Empire.

0:44:03.920 --> 0:44:16.960
<v Speaker 1>Does James Murdoch appreciate that a majority to a substantial plurality,

0:44:18.120 --> 0:44:22.880
<v Speaker 1>depending on how you look at it, views his last

0:44:22.960 --> 0:44:23.759
<v Speaker 1>name shamefully?

0:44:24.760 --> 0:44:27.640
<v Speaker 3>Is he aware of that? Did you ask? Yeah?

0:44:27.920 --> 0:44:32.719
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure he is. I mean I didn't ask him

0:44:32.800 --> 0:44:36.920
<v Speaker 2>quite that question, but I think it was pretty much understood.

0:44:38.880 --> 0:44:46.279
<v Speaker 1>James Murdoch and his siblings live very well. They're billionaires.

0:44:47.160 --> 0:44:50.719
<v Speaker 1>Has James Murdoch ever earned and died doing anything in

0:44:50.760 --> 0:44:55.200
<v Speaker 1>his life that's not associated with the company or his inheritance.

0:44:55.960 --> 0:45:02.279
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, he's in right now, for example, building a

0:45:02.360 --> 0:45:04.080
<v Speaker 2>media empire in India.

0:45:04.120 --> 0:45:07.319
<v Speaker 1>Has James Murdoch and I just asked this right by

0:45:07.800 --> 0:45:16.440
<v Speaker 1>any reasonable definition, right, discounting nepotism, Have they accomplished anything

0:45:17.440 --> 0:45:21.839
<v Speaker 1>on their own name? When, for example, Teddy Roosevelt's son,

0:45:22.920 --> 0:45:27.880
<v Speaker 1>Teddy Roosevelt Junior, was a young man, he said that,

0:45:28.640 --> 0:45:32.400
<v Speaker 1>lamenting his name, that he would never be judged on

0:45:32.480 --> 0:45:36.719
<v Speaker 1>his own merit. Well, he became the Governor General of

0:45:36.760 --> 0:45:42.440
<v Speaker 1>the Philippines, the board chairman of American Express, He founded

0:45:42.480 --> 0:45:48.400
<v Speaker 1>the American Legion, and he led American Forces Ashore on

0:45:48.560 --> 0:45:51.040
<v Speaker 1>d Day as the only father who had a son

0:45:51.080 --> 0:45:55.000
<v Speaker 1>in the first wave, as the oldest man in the

0:45:55.040 --> 0:45:58.280
<v Speaker 1>first wave, is the only general officer in the first wave,

0:45:58.800 --> 0:46:02.000
<v Speaker 1>and he received them of honor that day for his valor.

0:46:02.640 --> 0:46:08.040
<v Speaker 1>What I'm trying to establish, right other than live lives

0:46:08.080 --> 0:46:15.600
<v Speaker 1>of extraordinarily gilded privilege and desecrate what it is that

0:46:15.640 --> 0:46:19.200
<v Speaker 1>their father built that I think is monstrous. Have they

0:46:19.239 --> 0:46:22.719
<v Speaker 1>ever done anything that any of them can point to

0:46:23.440 --> 0:46:26.600
<v Speaker 1>that I did this? I took a stand on this

0:46:26.880 --> 0:46:31.360
<v Speaker 1>somewhere anywhere in the world. I dug a ditch in

0:46:31.600 --> 0:46:36.160
<v Speaker 1>Suriname so that human feces could blow away from the

0:46:36.239 --> 0:46:41.600
<v Speaker 1>water supply to your knowledge, have any of Rupert Murdoch's

0:46:41.760 --> 0:46:49.239
<v Speaker 1>kids ever accomplished anything of note or worth anywhere, not

0:46:49.400 --> 0:46:56.520
<v Speaker 1>attached to his money, not attached to their name, or

0:46:56.880 --> 0:47:00.279
<v Speaker 1>taken a stand on anything other than saying, we don't

0:47:00.360 --> 0:47:02.799
<v Speaker 1>like how my dad runs the company that gave us

0:47:02.840 --> 0:47:06.640
<v Speaker 1>our billions to enjoy our lives with.

0:47:07.800 --> 0:47:10.359
<v Speaker 2>I will give you the answer that James would give,

0:47:10.920 --> 0:47:14.799
<v Speaker 2>which is that he, like I said, he spent twenty

0:47:14.880 --> 0:47:18.440
<v Speaker 2>years in the family business, mainly over maybe mainly internationally

0:47:18.560 --> 0:47:24.839
<v Speaker 2>right so Asia, and then London, he would say that.

0:47:25.040 --> 0:47:28.880
<v Speaker 2>So each of the kids walked away from the twenty

0:47:28.960 --> 0:47:32.799
<v Speaker 2>nineteen deal where Fox twenty first century, Fox Film and

0:47:33.160 --> 0:47:36.520
<v Speaker 2>TV Studios were sold to Disney with two billion dollars

0:47:36.560 --> 0:47:40.960
<v Speaker 2>in their pockets. Right, James helped orchestrate that deal. He

0:47:41.040 --> 0:47:43.359
<v Speaker 2>landed the plane on that deal. Lachlan was against it.

0:47:43.680 --> 0:47:47.160
<v Speaker 2>He would say he earned He helped earn that money

0:47:47.480 --> 0:47:50.399
<v Speaker 2>for him and his siblings by doing that deal, which

0:47:50.440 --> 0:47:54.600
<v Speaker 2>now most analysts would say Disney wildly overpaid for. Setting

0:47:54.600 --> 0:47:58.960
<v Speaker 2>that aside. Since then, since he's left the company, resigned

0:47:58.960 --> 0:48:03.600
<v Speaker 2>from the board, he's done a number of things. He's donated,

0:48:03.760 --> 0:48:07.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, hundreds of millions of dollars to various democratic causes,

0:48:07.239 --> 0:48:11.080
<v Speaker 2>climate change. He's bought, you know, like I said, a

0:48:11.080 --> 0:48:14.840
<v Speaker 2>bunch of media art Basel for example. He's building a

0:48:14.840 --> 0:48:19.320
<v Speaker 2>media empire in India. Now, can you disentangle that stuff?

0:48:19.360 --> 0:48:23.720
<v Speaker 2>This is me speaking now from the obvious head start

0:48:23.800 --> 0:48:26.680
<v Speaker 2>that he got by being born a murdoch. I don't

0:48:26.719 --> 0:48:28.799
<v Speaker 2>know if you can. I think that's part of what

0:48:28.840 --> 0:48:31.600
<v Speaker 2>made him, though, such a compelling interesting subject, is that

0:48:31.680 --> 0:48:35.400
<v Speaker 2>he was grappling with that those questions that you're asking

0:48:36.200 --> 0:48:38.759
<v Speaker 2>in real time as we talked over the course of

0:48:38.760 --> 0:48:41.839
<v Speaker 2>a year, right, Like, he has spent most of his

0:48:41.920 --> 0:48:47.239
<v Speaker 2>life kind of drafted into this family drama, this kind

0:48:47.280 --> 0:48:53.080
<v Speaker 2>of like very Shakespearean, you know, psychodrama about who is

0:48:53.120 --> 0:48:55.759
<v Speaker 2>the father's favorite and who is going to be the successor,

0:48:56.320 --> 0:48:59.440
<v Speaker 2>and spent almost his whole life playing this specific part

0:48:59.520 --> 0:49:02.920
<v Speaker 2>that he was casting as the dissidence on the rebel,

0:49:03.080 --> 0:49:06.279
<v Speaker 2>the black sheep, whatever. And only now that he's in

0:49:06.320 --> 0:49:10.560
<v Speaker 2>his fifties is he trying to kind of figure out

0:49:10.640 --> 0:49:14.000
<v Speaker 2>what his identity is apart from that whole drama, right,

0:49:14.360 --> 0:49:18.080
<v Speaker 2>And you know, you can make a lot of criticisms

0:49:18.080 --> 0:49:20.239
<v Speaker 2>of him, and I think they're fair. I'm not here

0:49:20.280 --> 0:49:22.759
<v Speaker 2>to defend him. I think that there's a lot of

0:49:23.400 --> 0:49:27.680
<v Speaker 2>kind of pathos in seeing somebody like him who has

0:49:27.719 --> 0:49:31.440
<v Speaker 2>a functioning conscience and is trying to figure out the

0:49:31.560 --> 0:49:34.239
<v Speaker 2>right thing to do in a system that he was

0:49:34.320 --> 0:49:37.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of born into and doesn't have a lot of

0:49:38.400 --> 0:49:41.960
<v Speaker 2>right things to do as obvious options.

0:49:42.360 --> 0:49:46.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm not criticizing him. I'm trying to understand him, to

0:49:47.000 --> 0:49:51.920
<v Speaker 1>be clear, and I want to bring it back, you know,

0:49:51.960 --> 0:49:54.879
<v Speaker 1>as we start to wrap up here, because I think

0:49:54.920 --> 0:49:59.640
<v Speaker 1>this is where I see a gap in the proverbial

0:49:59.719 --> 0:50:04.600
<v Speaker 1>bri ridge across the canyon and trying to understand who

0:50:04.640 --> 0:50:07.359
<v Speaker 1>this person is. Right as a as a reader of

0:50:07.400 --> 0:50:11.360
<v Speaker 1>your story, that I think fleshes out a great, a

0:50:11.440 --> 0:50:16.320
<v Speaker 1>great deal of this right. But the missing the missing

0:50:16.520 --> 0:50:24.120
<v Speaker 1>gap for me is will he is he on a

0:50:24.280 --> 0:50:31.200
<v Speaker 1>journey to fully recognize? Is he's somewhere in root to

0:50:31.320 --> 0:50:42.280
<v Speaker 1>a destination that ends inevitably with him staring into a

0:50:42.440 --> 0:50:49.759
<v Speaker 1>mirror and seeing at some degree, like every son will

0:50:49.760 --> 0:50:55.960
<v Speaker 1>see their father's face and time etched in a genetic familiarity,

0:50:57.800 --> 0:51:01.840
<v Speaker 1>does he see evil in the face of his father?

0:51:02.880 --> 0:51:10.799
<v Speaker 1>And does he see the damage that that evil did

0:51:10.840 --> 0:51:18.560
<v Speaker 1>to the most incandescenly perfect idea ever put to paper

0:51:18.640 --> 0:51:22.719
<v Speaker 1>by the mind of man in human history? Is that

0:51:22.920 --> 0:51:27.920
<v Speaker 1>something that he has the depth to reckon with, and

0:51:28.040 --> 0:51:38.759
<v Speaker 1>that he has the deserve shame to face and the

0:51:38.920 --> 0:51:47.600
<v Speaker 1>strength to try to make right by ending an existential

0:51:47.800 --> 0:51:52.880
<v Speaker 1>threat that pounds on by the moment. And even since

0:51:52.880 --> 0:51:56.800
<v Speaker 1>you wrote your story has announced itself in a way

0:51:56.960 --> 0:52:05.200
<v Speaker 1>that is almost incomprehens answible in that it's become the

0:52:05.320 --> 0:52:12.280
<v Speaker 1>government of the United States. That's what his father created,

0:52:13.440 --> 0:52:20.880
<v Speaker 1>and that's what has taken over politically and at this

0:52:21.160 --> 0:52:30.239
<v Speaker 1>moment is working continuously to tear down the institutions that

0:52:30.320 --> 0:52:35.520
<v Speaker 1>emerged from the Second World War that's saved during that war,

0:52:36.960 --> 0:52:43.960
<v Speaker 1>Australia from whence Rupert came by the country that rebuilt

0:52:43.960 --> 0:52:50.879
<v Speaker 1>the world, and any talk about that, and then I'll

0:52:50.880 --> 0:52:55.560
<v Speaker 1>turn it over. I'll ask you one last thing and

0:52:55.840 --> 0:52:56.680
<v Speaker 1>we'll wrap it up.

0:52:57.360 --> 0:52:59.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't think I have a satisfying answer

0:52:59.239 --> 0:53:03.040
<v Speaker 2>for you, because the truth is, I don't know, and

0:53:03.080 --> 0:53:07.719
<v Speaker 2>I don't know that anyone apart from the person himself,

0:53:08.160 --> 0:53:11.680
<v Speaker 2>can ever know. You know, the kind of depths of

0:53:11.800 --> 0:53:16.000
<v Speaker 2>courage you're able to summon, the depths of self awareness

0:53:16.000 --> 0:53:18.520
<v Speaker 2>and recognition. I spent a lot of time with him.

0:53:18.560 --> 0:53:19.640
<v Speaker 2>I found him impressive in.

0:53:19.640 --> 0:53:21.000
<v Speaker 3>A lot of ways. He is.

0:53:21.400 --> 0:53:25.320
<v Speaker 2>He's a deep thinker, he's a deep reader. He references history,

0:53:25.480 --> 0:53:29.320
<v Speaker 2>he references philosophy, uh classic works of literature.

0:53:30.080 --> 0:53:31.200
<v Speaker 3>He he he is.

0:53:31.200 --> 0:53:36.240
<v Speaker 2>Not a you know, kind of an unthinking, diletent billionaire.

0:53:36.320 --> 0:53:38.239
<v Speaker 2>I've I've interviewed plenty of those as well.

0:53:38.520 --> 0:53:42.719
<v Speaker 1>I think he's he.

0:53:43.400 --> 0:53:50.000
<v Speaker 2>Is somebody who thinks a lot and where that that

0:53:50.000 --> 0:53:55.160
<v Speaker 2>that kind of depth of historical knowledge and philosophical thinking

0:53:55.760 --> 0:53:58.200
<v Speaker 2>will lead him. I just don't know. I don't know,

0:53:58.200 --> 0:54:00.600
<v Speaker 2>and that, but that, but that's part of again, part

0:54:00.640 --> 0:54:03.360
<v Speaker 2>of what made him so compelling to me as a

0:54:03.360 --> 0:54:06.759
<v Speaker 2>subject is that he does have enough self awareness to

0:54:06.840 --> 0:54:09.640
<v Speaker 2>be grappling with some of the questions you just laid out.

0:54:09.680 --> 0:54:11.239
<v Speaker 2>Maybe not quite in the way you laid them out,

0:54:11.280 --> 0:54:15.400
<v Speaker 2>but he's grappling with these things. But I don't know

0:54:15.400 --> 0:54:17.680
<v Speaker 2>where that grappling will will ultimately lead him.

0:54:18.239 --> 0:54:24.000
<v Speaker 1>It is a fascinating story in a fascinating moment. You know,

0:54:24.239 --> 0:54:30.400
<v Speaker 1>listen again, everybody. Romney a reckoning is a masterpiece of

0:54:30.640 --> 0:54:35.840
<v Speaker 1>political portraiture. It is laugh out loud funny. There is

0:54:35.880 --> 0:54:39.520
<v Speaker 1>something that I'll just say about Mitt Romney that I

0:54:39.600 --> 0:54:42.399
<v Speaker 1>know to be true, having spent enough time around him.

0:54:43.040 --> 0:54:50.040
<v Speaker 1>He has an author's eye for absurdist detail. Mitt Romney

0:54:50.600 --> 0:54:53.600
<v Speaker 1>when he walks into a room, and no one would

0:54:53.600 --> 0:54:57.000
<v Speaker 1>suspect us about Mitt Romney. But Mitt Romney is a

0:54:57.160 --> 0:55:02.000
<v Speaker 1>genuinely funny guy and and his there's different types of

0:55:02.120 --> 0:55:07.440
<v Speaker 1>humor and Mitt Romney's humor. If you think Jerry Seinfeld

0:55:07.560 --> 0:55:11.040
<v Speaker 1>is funny, and I think Jerry Seinfeld is funny, The

0:55:11.080 --> 0:55:17.239
<v Speaker 1>basis of Mitt Romney's humor is his keen eye for absurdism,

0:55:17.880 --> 0:55:23.600
<v Speaker 1>and it conveys so deeply in McKay Coppins's book about

0:55:23.640 --> 0:55:29.880
<v Speaker 1>the Senate about this moment. And McKay coppins, because he

0:55:30.760 --> 0:55:34.759
<v Speaker 1>is the best at what he does, has some license

0:55:34.840 --> 0:55:37.520
<v Speaker 1>at the place he works, which is he gets to

0:55:37.640 --> 0:55:43.040
<v Speaker 1>pick out the things that interest him, and I suspect

0:55:43.120 --> 0:55:46.279
<v Speaker 1>has a long leash in pursuing them. And so when

0:55:46.360 --> 0:55:50.480
<v Speaker 1>you read this story in The Atlantic, we'll share as

0:55:50.520 --> 0:55:57.120
<v Speaker 1>we go out about the Murdoch family. It was brilliant,

0:55:57.480 --> 0:56:06.120
<v Speaker 1>It's consequential, It is Shakespearean, uh, it is biblical and astonishing.

0:56:07.640 --> 0:56:11.799
<v Speaker 1>And the drama that begins to play out at the

0:56:11.920 --> 0:56:16.800
<v Speaker 1>instant of Rupert Murdoch's death is something that every person

0:56:16.880 --> 0:56:21.520
<v Speaker 1>in this country is a stakeholder in. And let me

0:56:21.600 --> 0:56:24.440
<v Speaker 1>say I've never said this about another human being. When

0:56:24.440 --> 0:56:27.640
<v Speaker 1>the moment this monster draws his last breath, good reredditence,

0:56:28.680 --> 0:56:35.759
<v Speaker 1>and let the drama begin. And James Murdoch has a

0:56:35.760 --> 0:56:38.840
<v Speaker 1>lot to answer for, as every one of those kids

0:56:38.840 --> 0:56:43.120
<v Speaker 1>does in my view, and we'll see and and you

0:56:43.320 --> 0:56:48.360
<v Speaker 1>begin to see the contours of how they'll approach a

0:56:48.440 --> 0:56:55.160
<v Speaker 1>decision that will redeem a rotten name or dig a

0:56:55.200 --> 0:57:00.040
<v Speaker 1>deeper grave for it. And with that McKay coppins, the

0:57:00.200 --> 0:57:03.240
<v Speaker 1>very best journalist in America. Thank you for joining the Warning.

0:57:03.840 --> 0:57:08.280
<v Speaker 3>Thanks Steve, and I'm Steve Schmidt. This is the Warning.

0:57:08.400 --> 0:57:11.280
<v Speaker 1>I invite you to join this community where I promise

0:57:11.520 --> 0:57:15.400
<v Speaker 1>to be honest, blunt and direct about what is happening

0:57:15.440 --> 0:57:19.960
<v Speaker 1>in this country. America is in crisis. Follow and subscribe

0:57:20.040 --> 0:57:24.600
<v Speaker 1>to this channel on YouTube and on substack. Thank you,