1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: This is the warning. I'm Steve Schmidt. Welcome. I'm here 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: with Mackay Coppins, who is an Atlantic magazine staff writer, 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: is the author of a great biography of Willard Mitt Romney, 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: the former governor of Massachusetts, the United States Senator from Utah, 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: the two thousand and twelve Republican nominee for President of 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: the United States. The name of that book is Romney 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: The Reckoning, and he has written recently for The Atlantic, 8 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: a long form profile of James Murdoch, The Murdoch Children, 9 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: about the Murdoch family, all of the considerations of the 10 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: children with regarding the news empire that has, in my 11 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: view done so much damage to the country. Two concepts 12 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: of truth and what will happen to it as the 13 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: inevitable happens, and Rupert Murdoch passes from this world to 14 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: the next sometime before not too very long at age 15 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: ninety five. We have McKay Coppins with us, who I 16 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: just want to say to everybody that he is an 17 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: extremely talented writer, probably in my view, one of the 18 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: two or three very very best of the best long 19 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: form magazine profile writers of the country. In the country. 20 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: You back and look at a masterpiece of writing for 21 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: those of you who are interested in writing as a 22 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: form of expression and read his profile I think in 23 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: twenty twenty with Steve Bannon at Steve Bannon's head Orders 24 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: on the night of the Biden election, extraordinary portrait of 25 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: the MAGA movement at a low move at a low moment. 26 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: But I'm really thrilled today to have Mickay Coppins joining 27 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: me again. One of the best buy the book. You'll 28 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: learn a lot about a compelling figure over this last 29 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: decade and a half who is a deeper person than 30 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: you may suspect, but with no further ado McKay coppins welcome. 31 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: Thank you, Steve, and thank you for that very kind, 32 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 2: too kind introduction. But I'm glad to be here. I'm 33 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: glad to be talking to you. 34 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 1: One of the odd things about this moment is that 35 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: people like me, all of a sudden get to ask 36 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: journalists like you questions and do so in front of 37 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: an audience that is sizeable and has a lot of 38 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: curiosity about what journalism has become, what it is. What 39 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: I hope to do today is to expose them really 40 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: to a world class practitioner. As we kind of get 41 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: into Fox News and the story. I just want to 42 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: start out, how do you assess what is happening in Washington? 43 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: What is the mood in Washington, DC? Right now? What 44 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: is at a top level explaining beyond what I would 45 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: say are the contours of a television production, a manifestation 46 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: of reality show theater projected as the workings of the 47 00:03:53,680 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: presidency to create responses, feelings, and effects. Take us into 48 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: the cavern if you will a little bit. 49 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I always struggle to answer the question of, like, 50 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 2: what's the vibe in Washington, because it really depends on 51 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: who you are, Right, There's certainly a contingent of Republicans, 52 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 2: Trump supporters, MAGA types, for whom this is like, you know, 53 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 2: their emotional apex. This is like the triumph they have 54 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: been working toward for in some cases decades. Right, This 55 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 2: mass disruption of the federal government, this dismantling of federal agencies, 56 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 2: the replacement of civil servants and nonpartisan bureaucrats with Trump loyalists, 57 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: like this is a project that has been in the 58 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: works for a very long time, you know, way before 59 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 2: Project twenty twenty five became a kind of talking point. 60 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: And so for some conservatives, Andublicans. This is a kind 61 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 2: of joyful moment. I would say, if you tried to 62 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 2: take the temperature of the Washington metropolitan area in general, 63 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 2: I think it's hard to overstate how much the early 64 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,239 Speaker 2: weeks of trumps second term have kind of upended things, 65 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 2: right and how unnerving it is right now. To me, 66 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 2: the most unnerving thing about the early weeks of the 67 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 2: Trump presidency hasn't really been the Trump Show that you're 68 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: talking about, you know, the post untruth social and the 69 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: press conferences and Elon and the Oval Office and stuff. 70 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 2: I mean, your mile wage may vary on that stuff, 71 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 2: but like to me, it's kind of a piece with 72 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 2: what Trump has been for since twenty fifteen, right for 73 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 2: the past decade and maybe even longer you could go 74 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: and do his reality TV days. What's unnerving to me 75 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 2: is the culture of fear and self censorship and silence 76 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 2: that is becoming pervasive among large segments of Washington d C. 77 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 2: I personally know people who work in the federal government, 78 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 2: work in the State Department, Justice Department, places like that, 79 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 2: who are fundamentally not partisans. They are not political creatures 80 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 2: in any meaningful sense. They've worked under administrations from both parties, 81 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: and they are terrified, right, and they are looking over 82 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 2: their shoulders constantly. They're afraid of ever expressing any kind 83 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 2: of political opinion, even in private among friends at church, 84 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: at dinner, because it might be overheard and make its 85 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 2: way back to the White House, and you know, they 86 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: could lose their jobs over it. People can't make long 87 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 2: term or even short term plans about their families' lives, 88 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: their professional lives. You know, some people listening to this, 89 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 2: you know, if you're like a Trump Trump fan, you 90 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: might say, well, that's good. I want I want federal 91 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: bureaucrats to be looking over their shoulders, right, And I 92 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 2: think that's just the point. That is what Trump has 93 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: tried to accomplish, and he has accomplished it. I think 94 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: it'll take some time for us to really see what 95 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: the long term consequences are of this kind of upending 96 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 2: of the federal bureaucracy. But at least right now, if 97 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: you're asking for like a temperature check, the mood is 98 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: very unnerved, very frightened, and the chaos, I think is 99 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 2: doing what it's intended to do. 100 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: I want to dig in a little bit deeper on 101 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: the question of fear and I want to do so 102 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: superficious excuse me superficially, and it just asks your valuation, 103 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: not putting you on the spot of trying to own 104 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: something that's complex with a with a simple declaration, but 105 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: just as a general statement, I'm going to give you 106 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: some categories and ask you to valuate those institutions as 107 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: whether they're filled with people as you described in the 108 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: federal government with fear. Does that hold inside the Republican 109 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: House conference? Are they afraid of Donald Trump? 110 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: I would say almost categorically yes. I don't know if 111 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 2: they're living in fear day to day, but certainly it 112 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 2: is true, and I've done reporting on this. It was 113 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: actually in my book. It is certainly true that Republicans 114 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 2: in the House are afraid of political repercussions for crossing Trump. 115 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 2: Some are even afraid of, you know, the potential for 116 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 2: violence against them or their families if they cross Trump 117 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 2: and an especially highly visible way. So fear is definitely 118 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 2: a component of some Republicans that now some Republicans are 119 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 2: just fully on board with the Trump project and agenda, 120 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: and I don't think they're operating from fear, but I 121 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 2: think it's you know, it would be hard to say 122 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: that fear doesn't play a part in Trump's kind of 123 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: stranglehold on House Republicans. 124 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: I would I would argue that they're all fully on 125 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: board with the project. Whether they get there, and how 126 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: they get there and down which tributary they flow into it, 127 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: I think is debatable, but let me let me, let 128 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: me keep going. So I think that's an interesting constituency 129 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: because they are beneficiaries of staying in line, probably at 130 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: a high level on the proverbial pyramid, and they face 131 00:09:53,800 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: real repercussion forever objecting to anything in the fear of 132 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: understanding that the benefit in everything goes away if they 133 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 1: if they do so. Is there a climate of fear 134 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: amongst House Democrats. 135 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 2: Hmmm, that's a more complicated question. I mean, I would 136 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 2: say fear. The fear there is not fear of Donald 137 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 2: Trump per se, more a fear born out of a 138 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 2: kind of general aimlessness or feeling of like not knowing 139 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 2: exactly how to respond to this moment. Again, it's hard 140 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 2: to say anything too sweeping, because I think there are 141 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 2: Democrats who are operating very boldly. I think there are 142 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: Democrats who are playing a long game. I think there 143 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 2: are also democrats a lot of Democrats, And you sense 144 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: this across in conversations with democratic political thinkers strategists that 145 00:10:55,720 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 2: just don't kind of know how they get out of 146 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 2: this moment, right they try. The feeling is, at least 147 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 2: among some we tried resistance politics all through the first 148 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: Trump term, and Trump is back right, and so should 149 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 2: we be triangulating? Should we be appeasing should we be 150 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 2: ignoring him? I mean, James Carville famously said recently that 151 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 2: Democrats should lay over and play dead for a while 152 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: and let the Trump administration implode on its own. I 153 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 2: think there are just a lot of different voices, a 154 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 2: lot of confusion about how to respond. So I think 155 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: that to the extent that fear is an element there, 156 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: it would be more about a fear of doing the 157 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 2: wrong thing right, of kind of taking the wrong political 158 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: course and seeing it backfire. And certainly I think you 159 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 2: sense that among House Democrats. 160 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: Do you think that there are House Democrats that are 161 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: afraid of Trump's mob, either online through a psychological prism 162 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: of wow, I'm constantly abused, and or the presence of 163 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: that mob manifesting crowd boys pardoned January sixth, rioters that 164 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 1: we read about some stories that have been published in 165 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: the last ten days talked about the anxiety of members. 166 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: Is there fear amongst our elected officials of the Trump mob. 167 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: I think it would be hard to be a member 168 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 2: of Congress who lived through January sixth and not have 169 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 2: some kind of trauma associated with that. 170 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: Not. 171 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of rational to take away from 172 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 2: that experience some base level fear of that happening again, 173 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 2: or something similar to it happening. I would also say 174 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 2: that there has been a general, a gradual rise, and 175 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 2: I'm afraid to say it, but almost kind of normalization 176 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 2: of political violence in this country over the last decade 177 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 2: decade and a half that that has resulted in elected 178 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: officials and politicians walking around every day with the constant 179 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,719 Speaker 2: fear in the back of their mind that they might 180 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 2: somebody might be trying to kill them. And I remember, 181 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 2: after even you know, the the assassin assassination attempt on 182 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 2: Trump last year, talking to Republicans and Democrats who said, 183 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: this is kind of the new reality that we all 184 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 2: live in. We're all afraid of somebody coming after us, 185 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: right like. And you know, certainly you could go back 186 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 2: to periods in American history where that was pretty normal, 187 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 2: and then we went through a period where it was not. 188 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 2: And there's a general fear that we might be going 189 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 2: back toward an era of political violence, assassination attempts, and 190 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: I think that fear is constantly lurking in the back 191 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 2: of our political leader's mind. 192 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: I want to specifically exempt The Atlantic in this next question, 193 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: even from consideration. I don't want to put you on 194 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: the spot there, but you're deeply respected, very established by 195 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: merit and earned reputation in Washington amongst journalists. Is their 196 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: fear of Donald Trump in the Washington newsroom of many 197 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: organizations by journalists. 198 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 3: I mean. 199 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: I I again don't want to speak categorically. There are 200 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: too many data points over the last few months that 201 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 2: you could point to without sensing that there is fear 202 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 2: guiding decisions being made at news organizations at some levels. 203 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 2: Right I would argue that more of that fear is 204 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 2: being sensed at the ownership and executive level than at 205 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: the newsroom and journalist level. I think we've seen, you know, 206 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 2: too many frankly, owners and executives at news organizations kind 207 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 2: of sweatily looking for ways to uh, you know, appease 208 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 2: or cozy up to the new administration, and uh, and yeah, 209 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: that's unnerving. That's unnerving for journalists. In my experience talking 210 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: to my fellow journalists in Washington, there's more fear about 211 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 2: what the bosses will do, their their own bosses will do, 212 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 2: and how that will affect them as opposed to you know, 213 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 2: Trump coming after them. There is there is talk about that. 214 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: I mean, let's let's be real, like, of course, there's 215 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: talk about what especially, you know, as we were leading 216 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 2: up to the election, in the weeks after, there was 217 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 2: there was plenty of discussion in newsrooms about what precautions 218 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 2: should we be taking, how should we protect ourselves against 219 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 2: you know, the Justice Department for example, coming after us, 220 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: or Trump putting us on our enemies list. I think 221 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: if you're an especially high profile political journalist who's tangled 222 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: with Trump, you have reason to be concerned. So, no question, 223 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 2: those those those conversations are happening. But but I would 224 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 2: say that the what what kind of amplifies that fear 225 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 2: and what spreads it is the feeling that your owners 226 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: and bosses don't have your backs, right that that's where 227 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 2: you get really worried. Speaking as a reporter who's worked 228 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 2: at a bunch of places and for a bunch of 229 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 2: editors and owners who I really did feel had my back. 230 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 2: I can tell you like that is a crucial component 231 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: to being able to do, you know, fearless adversarial journalism 232 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 2: against you know, against the backdrop of powerful and illiberal 233 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 2: leaders who are who are calling out the media every day. 234 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 2: But you need you need that support. You need to 235 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 2: feel like your owners are going to spend money to 236 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 2: uh and you know, against a frivolous lawsuit or whatever. 237 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 2: You need to feel like you're the top editors have 238 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: your back, that they're not gonna kind of cowtow to 239 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 2: somebody who complains about your reporting. You just need to 240 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 2: have that sense of support. And I think too many 241 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 2: journalists right now don't have that feeling. 242 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: I don't want to put words in your mouth at all. Well, 243 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: what I just heard you say is that there is 244 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: a chill in the air in America's newsrooms, and it's 245 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 1: driven by two factors, maybe three. The first is Trump's 246 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: aggress and his aggressive statements of retaliation and retribution made 247 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: against the ownership of media companies, who regard those media 248 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: companies as appendages to great empires that are at the 249 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: periphery that were totems of ego and then until they 250 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: became liabilities of empire. And now the journalist does not 251 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: feel like that they have their back covered by management, 252 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: and that, combined with Trump's arbitrary aggressiveness, there's been a 253 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: very acute change in media culture very quickly in the 254 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: country that people are now very conscious of if I 255 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: write something, there's a consequence. So what you're saying, you put. 256 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 2: It that way, I would say, and I think that's 257 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 2: that's a totally fair way of describing what's happening. 258 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 3: I guess my. 259 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 2: The the only caveat I'd add is that while there 260 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 2: may be a chill in the air as you put it, 261 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 2: I don't want to overstate overstate this because I still 262 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 2: think there are so many reporters doing really good challenging uh, 263 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 2: you know, reporting, holding power to account, UH, documenting what 264 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: the administration is doing, what dog is doing, UH, doing 265 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 2: tough stories. There are a lot of newsrooms, even in 266 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 2: some of those same newsrooms, where there is a fear 267 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 2: of what management is up to and UH and you know, 268 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 2: a fear that they might not have their back. Some 269 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 2: of a lot of reporters are still willing to take 270 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: the risk to to do solid reporting because they care 271 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 2: about it that much. Right, So I don't want to 272 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 2: say that our whole you know, journalistic class has sold 273 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 2: out and is terrified and you know, cowering and fear. 274 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 2: I just think that we're up against different dynamics than 275 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 2: we were in the first Trump term, where we had 276 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 2: the same kind of rhetoric coming out of the White House. 277 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: But back then it felt like that rhetoric was emboldening 278 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 2: publications and even their owners right like it. It was 279 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 2: kind of a dare to like go to to really 280 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 2: do great work, and a lot of great work was done. 281 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 2: And my fear is that this time around, at the 282 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 2: ownership level of management level, there is not the same 283 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 2: kind of defiance that's motivating the decisions that are being made. 284 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: There is a seminal quote that will be at the 285 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: front of history's recollection of this era when it comes 286 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: to any study of journalism and the collapse of integrity 287 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: that so many American people feel and the disorientation around fact, 288 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: and it will be what Selena Zito said very famously, 289 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: which is about some people take Trump literally and others 290 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: taking him seriously, and the difference between the two. And 291 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: so what I just heard you described is that Trump 292 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: was taken literally but not seriously at one point by 293 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: the American media. But Trump is now taken literally and 294 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: seriously by the American media and probably more importantly by 295 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: the ownership groups of the American media the corporate me 296 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: today than he was then. And that's all the difference 297 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: in the moment. 298 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 2: I would also add that I'm not sure that they're 299 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 2: wrong to take him more seriously now than they did 300 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 2: in the first term. That doesn't mean they're making the 301 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 2: right decisions or calculations based on that. But he clearly 302 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 2: is His administration manifestly is more serious in the second 303 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 2: term than it was in the first term. He has 304 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,479 Speaker 2: spent a lot of time, He and the people around 305 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 2: him spent a lot of time making plans. You know, 306 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 2: we see this from all the executive orders he signed 307 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: in the first week's Project twenty twenty five, et. 308 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 3: Cetera like it. 309 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,439 Speaker 2: It is manifestly, self evidently clear that he is a 310 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 2: more serious political figure. Whether you find him seriously threatening 311 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 2: to American democracy or you know serious, you know, champion 312 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 2: of whatever you believe in, he is a more serious figure. 313 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 2: His administration is more serious, and there is a reason 314 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: to take his threats more seriously this time than the 315 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 2: first four years he was president. 316 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: Objectively what you just said, and it seems right to 317 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 1: me by way of observation analytically, which is that any 318 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: person rationally observing what's happening has to impose a lot 319 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: of weight of denial into the analysis to come to 320 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: a conclusion that Donald Trump does not mean the things 321 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: that he is doing. Yeah, fair point. 322 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 3: No, Yeah, I think that I would fully agree with that. 323 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: Okay, I have one last question about about fear, and 324 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: then I want to I want to get into the 325 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: Fox News stuff because I think fear is in the 326 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: end the commodity of Fox News. And there's this tremendous 327 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: family drama, ammorality play that you wrote about so exquisitely, 328 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: and I want to get get into talking about it. 329 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: But Didmitt Romney leave Washington DC afraid? 330 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 2: You'd have to ask him that question. If you asked him, 331 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 2: or if I asked him, he would say no, he 332 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 2: would say that he was not afraid that you know, 333 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 2: he had his own perfectly legitimate reasons for retiring. Is 334 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 2: an ins late seventies, His wife is you know, has 335 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 2: multiple sclerosis. He wants to spend his last good years 336 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: with her and his family. All that that said, I 337 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 2: know people around him, very close to him, who are 338 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 2: afraid for him and who believe that I don't know 339 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 2: that he that would say that. Maybe he wouldn't be 340 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 2: wouldn't describe himself as acting out of fear. But he's acting. 341 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 2: He is pragmatically and practically practically aware of the political 342 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 2: situation that we're in with a president who has an 343 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,959 Speaker 2: enemy's list and a willingness to use the levers of 344 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 2: government power to go after those those enemies, and that Romney, 345 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 2: while maybe not at the top of that list, is 346 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 2: probably somewhere on that list as a Republican apostate, and 347 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 2: I should mention in my book the paperback edition of 348 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 2: my book, I interviewed him again last year. I was like, 349 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 2: I think last spring, and I asked him about kind of, 350 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,239 Speaker 2: you know, if Trump wins, what does this mean for you, 351 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 2: what does it mean for your family? And he tried 352 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: to downplay it at first, and he said, you know, 353 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm not spending a lot of time 354 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 2: thinking about that. But then I kept pushing it, and 355 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 2: then he kind of got a little upset and like irritated, 356 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 2: and he finally kind of just snapped at me and said, 357 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 2: you know, I don't know what you want me to say. 358 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 2: I have five kids, five daughters in law, you know, 359 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 2: dozens of grandkids, like I can't protect all of them. 360 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,239 Speaker 2: I don't know how to protect all of them. And 361 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 2: it was an interesting kind of window, just a glimpse 362 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 2: into the psychology of somebody who has been taken pretty 363 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 2: courageous independent stands in the Trump era as like a 364 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 2: dissident in the party, kind of reckoning with the reality 365 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 2: of where we're at and realizing that there's only so 366 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 2: much he can do to protect the people he cares about. 367 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 2: With somebody like Trump in the Oval office. 368 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: Do you think that there is any chance we will 369 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: see in the next two years time? In address by 370 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: Mitt Romney somewhere in the country, rising to meet this 371 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:50,479 Speaker 1: moment as a matter of conscience outside the realm of 372 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: his political ambitions, now in the past, where he simply 373 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: as a man who any millions of people regard as 374 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: a person of tremendous stature and rected to speak in 375 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: what many scores of tens of millions, I suggest will 376 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: we'll soon regard together as a as a really deep crisis. 377 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: Will we ever hear from him again in any consequential way, 378 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: or is Mitt Romney in a state of retirement and repose. 379 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 3: It's a good question. 380 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 2: I feel like ever since my book came out in 381 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, every interview I do, people are asking, 382 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 2: you know, what's he going to do next? Is he 383 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 2: going to say something? Is he going to speak out again? 384 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 2: And you know, I don't know, is the short answer. 385 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 2: We actually saw him make his first public statement since 386 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 2: leaving the Senate just a week or two ago, after 387 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 2: that Oval Office meeting with Zelensky and with Trump and Vance, 388 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 2: and you know, he said, we must not let petty 389 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 2: personal differences get in the way of the reality that 390 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: we're facing, which is an autocratic regime invading a sovereign 391 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 2: nation and this country deserves our protection, et cetera. It's 392 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 2: all the things you would expect him to say. I 393 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 2: don't know exactly what compelled him in that moment to 394 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 2: speak out. It probably was some combination of just repulsion 395 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: at what he was seeing in the Oval Office and 396 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 2: a strong feeling that he needed to say something. I 397 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 2: think at the same time, He's always weighing does this 398 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 2: stuff make any difference? 399 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 3: Right? He put that. 400 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: Statement out, it got some coverage, Did it move the 401 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 2: needle at all? You say that millions of people look 402 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 2: up to him, and I think that's true. I mean, 403 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 2: I also think that he believes he has never had 404 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 2: less influence in Republican politics than he does now, and 405 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 2: so he asked a way that reality against the costs 406 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: of speaking out. But my guess is, if you were 407 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 2: asking me to take bets, I'm I'm not a gambling man, 408 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 2: but I would guess that it's not the last that 409 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 2: we've heard of Met Romney. I would I would guess 410 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 2: that we'll we'll hear from him again. 411 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: I just want to say before we turn to the 412 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: to the story of Fox News that Romney a reckoning 413 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: I think is interesting, a psychological portrait that you can 414 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: read of a complex person in public life. I think 415 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: it's an extraordinary portrait of a man in a season, 416 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: but also the institution of the US Senate in a 417 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: particular moment in time, just on the edge of what 418 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: I would argue is a real fundamental collapse now into 419 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: a pile of bureau at least temporarily of both privilege 420 00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: and control by the executive branch to which it it's 421 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: a coequal check and balance against, at least within the 422 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: constitutional imagination of our of our of our ancestors. And 423 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: so it's a it's an incredible book. But one of 424 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: the things I walked away from that book astonished by 425 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:22,959 Speaker 1: was that point that Mitt Romney has a lack of 426 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: self awareness about how much Mitt Romney's words could mean 427 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: to so many people after so much time in office, 428 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: that something more down and edging him like water on 429 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: a rock, that created this doubt in his mind, this 430 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: voice of doubt inside of Mitt Romney's mind about the 431 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: ability of Admit Romney to roar like a lion. And 432 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: I don't doubt it right that he could have that 433 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: he can, and he's got a couple of roarers left. 434 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: But that doubt I found just to be fascinating. I 435 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: want to get into this Atlantic piece that you did, 436 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: which is another astounding piece of psychological portraiture, family portraiture 437 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: or portraiture of power. This is real life succession, This 438 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: is the Murdoch family. And to set the stage that 439 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: very wealthy people have organized their affairs in series of 440 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: inner linking financial arrangements that seek to avoid taxes and 441 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: allow for the salubrious intergenerational transfer of wealth. And there 442 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: are revocable trusts, and there are irrevocable trusts. And one 443 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: of the features of an irrevocable trust is its irrevocability. 444 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: And so there is an irrevocable trust that Rupert Murdoch 445 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: litigated against his children in court and lost the case, 446 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: meaning that upon the death of this ninety five year 447 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: old man, he is unable to fulfill his living intention, 448 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: which is to bestow control of it to the child 449 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,479 Speaker 1: he has selected as his business heir, which is his 450 00:32:54,240 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: son Lachlan, and not his dissident James, who now with 451 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: the other children. If I understand your story correctly, at 452 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: the moment the Pope dies, blessings will be said, and 453 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: the fisherman's ring, Peter's ring will be taken from his singer, 454 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: from his finger, and the seal of Saint Peter cracked 455 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: from it. And this scene is played out in conclave. 456 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: When his Majesty the King passes in an instant, the 457 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: sovereign is dead, Long live the King at that instant 458 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: which all of humanity shares. When Rupert Murdoch's brain fires 459 00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: its last electrical impulse, heart beats a final time, his 460 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: lungs fill in exhale, his last raph. He is gone. 461 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 1: It seems to me reading your story, Jesse Waters is 462 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: gonna wind up like a park Ranger underdoge scrutiny. 463 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 2: I won't make quite that bold of prediction, but I 464 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 2: will say that it does look like as things stand now, 465 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 2: pending appeals in the litigation and various other possibilities, if 466 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,919 Speaker 2: things play out the way we think they'll play out, 467 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 2: change will be coming to Fox News when Rupert dies. 468 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 3: I think that is fair to say yes. 469 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 2: And the reason is you alluded to it that the 470 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 2: way that the fam the Murdoch Family trust is currently 471 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 2: set up, when Rupert dies, control of the empire that 472 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 2: includes Fox News. It also includes Dow Jones, the Wall 473 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 2: Street Journal, a bunch of British and Australia newspapers, and 474 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 2: TV channels, et cetera. The you know, the Fox network, 475 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 2: but the empire will be split. The control of the 476 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 2: empire will be split four ways, equally among Rupert's four 477 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 2: oldest children, Lachlan, James, Elizabeth and Prudence. 478 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: And. 479 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 2: The current kind of makeup of those four. Lachlan is 480 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 2: the Rupert's mini me. He is a conservative ideologue by 481 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 2: all accounts. He believes in the way that his father 482 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 2: has built the empire, and that's why Rupert chose him 483 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 2: as his successor. James and his two sisters are much 484 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 2: less conservative and to varying degrees centrist to liberal, and 485 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 2: more importantly, are appalled by some of the things that 486 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 2: Fox News has done and other elements of the Empire 487 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 2: have done, and they believe serious reforms need to be 488 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 2: made to these businesses to make them responsible participants in 489 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 2: the public discourse, international politics, media, et cetera. And it 490 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 2: looks like the three of them will be able to 491 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: outvote Lachlan on major decisions. And so that is why 492 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 2: there's been so much attention paid to this family drama, 493 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 2: why The Atlantic put this thirteen thousand words story on 494 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,760 Speaker 2: the cover, Because while it is a very juicy family drama, 495 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 2: a morality play, like you said, and I think there's 496 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,919 Speaker 2: a lot of pathos and really tragedy in it. It's 497 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 2: almost Shakespearean in nature, it has very real stakes for 498 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 2: American politics and American democracy, and we're going to find 499 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 2: out what that means pretty soon. 500 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: Probably what is his condition? 501 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 2: Ruberts, Yes, as far as I know, healthy or as 502 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 2: healthy as he can be. But he's ninety four years old, 503 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 2: so you know, I mean, just actuarily speaking, it's only 504 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 2: a matter of time before he passes away. But I 505 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 2: don't know of any imminent illness that is threatening his 506 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 2: life right now? 507 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,280 Speaker 1: Do the children? When you talk about the four parts, 508 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: are they apportioning as these trusts or structured pieces of 509 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: bricks and mortar in an empire between themselves one part 510 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,879 Speaker 1: for you, one part for you, one for you, one 511 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,959 Speaker 1: for you, or is it three against one seventy five 512 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: percent control of the vote, where fifty plus one is 513 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:45,760 Speaker 1: the magic number. 514 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 3: That's right. 515 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 2: So there's the board that constitutes the trust currently includes Rupert, 516 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 2: who has four votes, and then each of his four 517 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 2: oldest children has one. Once Rupert dies, his four votes 518 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 2: go away, and those the one vote that each of 519 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 2: the four has belongs to them, and so they have 520 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 2: supervision over the entire empire. And it's a little more 521 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 2: complicated than that, but basically, yes, it's not like you 522 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 2: get this fiefdom, I get this one. It's more that 523 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 2: decisions are made by the four of them together and 524 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 2: right now, just looking at it, it looks like James 525 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 2: and his sisters are on one side on most issues. 526 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 3: Lachlan is on the other. 527 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: So I have an ambition. I've never expressed it before, 528 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: and since these companies are all dying, I'm not going 529 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,959 Speaker 1: to get to live it. But I think I would 530 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: have been a great president of a cable news company. 531 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: But what you're saying, uh huh, is that the Murdoch 532 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,879 Speaker 1: siblings could say, at the moment of death, we want 533 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: to make Steve Schmidt the president of Fox News. 534 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 2: Are you your application right are to them? 535 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 1: I would, I would, but but that's what we're talking about. 536 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: Whomever it is now, Juseanne Scott, you're fired, right, you're 537 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 1: coming in. And so, for example, the new Fox News could, 538 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:26,240 Speaker 1: if the siblings decided, open up the files of every 539 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: sexual harassment settlement misconduct case of every Fox News anchor 540 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,360 Speaker 1: famous person going back twenty years. You know, whether it's O'Reilly, 541 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: you know, fifty sixty million in settlements, Kimberly Guilfoil. I 542 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 1: mean they could if they so chose, and their council 543 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:50,280 Speaker 1: let them, Hey, we are going to open up open 544 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 1: kimono this institution and let everybody have the peakaboo inside 545 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: of what went on here. They will have that type 546 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: of revelatory power should they choose to do it. They 547 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: could ask, for example, if they wanted to at Fox News, 548 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: say to the Wall Street Journal, we'd like you to 549 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: investigate this organization, open kimono and report back. 550 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 2: In theory yes, and I'm you added in boring caveat, 551 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 2: you know, depending on what their council says, I'm sure 552 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 2: that there are all kinds of legal complexities involved here. 553 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,839 Speaker 2: What I will say, though, having spent a lot of 554 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 2: time talking to James, who, by the way, spent twenty 555 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 2: years working for the family business before his eventual falling 556 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,839 Speaker 2: out an estrangement from his father, is that I don't 557 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 2: see him as like an as a particularly activist figure 558 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 2: in this sense, right. I don't see him going taking 559 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 2: over and trying to sabotage Fox News or you know, 560 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 2: meaningfully hurt these companies to make a point about how 561 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 2: they've been run. As disillusioned as he is by the 562 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 2: way that they've been run, I think that what's more 563 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 2: likely is there would be leadership changes in key ways. 564 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 2: There would be you know, kind of company wide reforms 565 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 2: that deal with things like corporate governance and editorial guard rails, 566 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 2: journalistic guard rails. He would want to see Fox News 567 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 2: run like a true news organization that didn't, for example, 568 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 2: broadcast lies about who won the last election, or put 569 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 2: on quack doctors to spread vaccine misinformation during a pandemic, 570 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 2: or platform an oil shill and let them pretend that 571 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 2: they're an expert on climate change. Like those things, to 572 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 2: him are not political things. And he's been clear every 573 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 2: time we've talked about this that he doesn't want to 574 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 2: turn Fox News into MSNBC. He's not saying Fox News 575 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 2: should become a liberal network. He thinks Fox could continue 576 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,360 Speaker 2: to report from a center right perspective, but do it responsibly, 577 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:17,440 Speaker 2: with responsible corporate leadership and newsroom, you know, principles and 578 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 2: values that they abide by. And would that mean some 579 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 2: change in the way that the coverage is done. Absolutely, 580 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,479 Speaker 2: Would that mean change in talent? He wouldn't go there 581 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 2: with me, but we've seen reporting elsewhere. I think Brian 582 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 2: Stelter reported that many of the Fox News stars have 583 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 2: already started to kind of make plans amongst themselves for 584 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 2: what to do in the event that James takes over. 585 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 2: Or James and his sisters are in control, so that 586 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 2: I would imagine there would be changes at the talent 587 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,600 Speaker 2: level too, But to be clear, that's me speculating. James 588 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 2: was always careful about going into too much detail about 589 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,839 Speaker 2: what changes he'd want to make, first because he thinks 590 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,719 Speaker 2: it's not appropriate yet. The second because he also he 591 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 2: recognizes that it's something that his father could weaponize and 592 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 2: the litigation that's going on because basically Rupert's chief argument 593 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:15,479 Speaker 2: in this attempt to rewrite the family trust is that 594 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 2: if Lachlin isn't allowed to have full control of the empire, 595 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 2: when Rupert's gone, James and his sisters will take the 596 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,479 Speaker 2: value of the companies by moderating its politics, defanging them, 597 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:32,760 Speaker 2: and making them more responsible, basically, and so so James 598 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 2: is wary of giving too much detail that Rupert could 599 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,400 Speaker 2: then use in this ongoing litigation. 600 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,560 Speaker 1: Is James ashamed of his last name? 601 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 3: I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I don't know. You'd have to 602 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:47,920 Speaker 3: ask him, But I can say. 603 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:49,720 Speaker 1: That he's James ashamed of his father. 604 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 2: I think he is ashamed of some of the associations 605 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,719 Speaker 2: that the Murdoch name now has and the things that 606 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 2: have been done under the banner of his last name, 607 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:03,400 Speaker 2: the Murdoch Empire. 608 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:16,960 Speaker 1: Does James Murdoch appreciate that a majority to a substantial plurality, 609 00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 1: depending on how you look at it, views his last 610 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:23,759 Speaker 1: name shamefully? 611 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 3: Is he aware of that? Did you ask? Yeah? 612 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:32,719 Speaker 2: I'm sure he is. I mean I didn't ask him 613 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 2: quite that question, but I think it was pretty much understood. 614 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 1: James Murdoch and his siblings live very well. They're billionaires. 615 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,719 Speaker 1: Has James Murdoch ever earned and died doing anything in 616 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:55,200 Speaker 1: his life that's not associated with the company or his inheritance. 617 00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:02,279 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, he's in right now, for example, building a 618 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 2: media empire in India. 619 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,319 Speaker 1: Has James Murdoch and I just asked this right by 620 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 1: any reasonable definition, right, discounting nepotism, Have they accomplished anything 621 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,839 Speaker 1: on their own name? When, for example, Teddy Roosevelt's son, 622 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:27,880 Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt Junior, was a young man, he said that, 623 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 1: lamenting his name, that he would never be judged on 624 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,719 Speaker 1: his own merit. Well, he became the Governor General of 625 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: the Philippines, the board chairman of American Express, He founded 626 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:48,400 Speaker 1: the American Legion, and he led American Forces Ashore on 627 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 1: d Day as the only father who had a son 628 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 1: in the first wave, as the oldest man in the 629 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,280 Speaker 1: first wave, is the only general officer in the first wave, 630 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,000 Speaker 1: and he received them of honor that day for his valor. 631 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: What I'm trying to establish, right other than live lives 632 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 1: of extraordinarily gilded privilege and desecrate what it is that 633 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 1: their father built that I think is monstrous. Have they 634 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 1: ever done anything that any of them can point to 635 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,600 Speaker 1: that I did this? I took a stand on this 636 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:31,360 Speaker 1: somewhere anywhere in the world. I dug a ditch in 637 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,160 Speaker 1: Suriname so that human feces could blow away from the 638 00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 1: water supply to your knowledge, have any of Rupert Murdoch's 639 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 1: kids ever accomplished anything of note or worth anywhere, not 640 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 1: attached to his money, not attached to their name, or 641 00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 1: taken a stand on anything other than saying, we don't 642 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,799 Speaker 1: like how my dad runs the company that gave us 643 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,640 Speaker 1: our billions to enjoy our lives with. 644 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,359 Speaker 2: I will give you the answer that James would give, 645 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,799 Speaker 2: which is that he, like I said, he spent twenty 646 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,440 Speaker 2: years in the family business, mainly over maybe mainly internationally 647 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:24,839 Speaker 2: right so Asia, and then London, he would say that. 648 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,880 Speaker 2: So each of the kids walked away from the twenty 649 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,799 Speaker 2: nineteen deal where Fox twenty first century, Fox Film and 650 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 2: TV Studios were sold to Disney with two billion dollars 651 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,960 Speaker 2: in their pockets. Right, James helped orchestrate that deal. He 652 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,359 Speaker 2: landed the plane on that deal. Lachlan was against it. 653 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,160 Speaker 2: He would say he earned He helped earn that money 654 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,399 Speaker 2: for him and his siblings by doing that deal, which 655 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,600 Speaker 2: now most analysts would say Disney wildly overpaid for. Setting 656 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,960 Speaker 2: that aside. Since then, since he's left the company, resigned 657 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:03,600 Speaker 2: from the board, he's done a number of things. He's donated, 658 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:07,240 Speaker 2: you know, hundreds of millions of dollars to various democratic causes, 659 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 2: climate change. He's bought, you know, like I said, a 660 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,840 Speaker 2: bunch of media art Basel for example. He's building a 661 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:19,320 Speaker 2: media empire in India. Now, can you disentangle that stuff? 662 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,720 Speaker 2: This is me speaking now from the obvious head start 663 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 2: that he got by being born a murdoch. I don't 664 00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,799 Speaker 2: know if you can. I think that's part of what 665 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,600 Speaker 2: made him, though, such a compelling interesting subject, is that 666 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,400 Speaker 2: he was grappling with that those questions that you're asking 667 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,759 Speaker 2: in real time as we talked over the course of 668 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,839 Speaker 2: a year, right, Like, he has spent most of his 669 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:47,239 Speaker 2: life kind of drafted into this family drama, this kind 670 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:53,080 Speaker 2: of like very Shakespearean, you know, psychodrama about who is 671 00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,759 Speaker 2: the father's favorite and who is going to be the successor, 672 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,440 Speaker 2: and spent almost his whole life playing this specific part 673 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,920 Speaker 2: that he was casting as the dissidence on the rebel, 674 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,279 Speaker 2: the black sheep, whatever. And only now that he's in 675 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:10,560 Speaker 2: his fifties is he trying to kind of figure out 676 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:14,000 Speaker 2: what his identity is apart from that whole drama, right, 677 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:18,080 Speaker 2: And you know, you can make a lot of criticisms 678 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,239 Speaker 2: of him, and I think they're fair. I'm not here 679 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,759 Speaker 2: to defend him. I think that there's a lot of 680 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,680 Speaker 2: kind of pathos in seeing somebody like him who has 681 00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:31,440 Speaker 2: a functioning conscience and is trying to figure out the 682 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,239 Speaker 2: right thing to do in a system that he was 683 00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,920 Speaker 2: kind of born into and doesn't have a lot of 684 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,960 Speaker 2: right things to do as obvious options. 685 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,880 Speaker 1: I'm not criticizing him. I'm trying to understand him, to 686 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:51,920 Speaker 1: be clear, and I want to bring it back, you know, 687 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,879 Speaker 1: as we start to wrap up here, because I think 688 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:59,640 Speaker 1: this is where I see a gap in the proverbial 689 00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:04,600 Speaker 1: bri ridge across the canyon and trying to understand who 690 00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,359 Speaker 1: this person is. Right as a as a reader of 691 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,360 Speaker 1: your story, that I think fleshes out a great, a 692 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:16,320 Speaker 1: great deal of this right. But the missing the missing 693 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:24,120 Speaker 1: gap for me is will he is he on a 694 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:31,200 Speaker 1: journey to fully recognize? Is he's somewhere in root to 695 00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:42,280 Speaker 1: a destination that ends inevitably with him staring into a 696 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:49,759 Speaker 1: mirror and seeing at some degree, like every son will 697 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:55,960 Speaker 1: see their father's face and time etched in a genetic familiarity, 698 00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,840 Speaker 1: does he see evil in the face of his father? 699 00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:10,799 Speaker 1: And does he see the damage that that evil did 700 00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:18,560 Speaker 1: to the most incandescenly perfect idea ever put to paper 701 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,719 Speaker 1: by the mind of man in human history? Is that 702 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:27,920 Speaker 1: something that he has the depth to reckon with, and 703 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:38,759 Speaker 1: that he has the deserve shame to face and the 704 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:47,600 Speaker 1: strength to try to make right by ending an existential 705 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:52,880 Speaker 1: threat that pounds on by the moment. And even since 706 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,800 Speaker 1: you wrote your story has announced itself in a way 707 00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:05,200 Speaker 1: that is almost incomprehens answible in that it's become the 708 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:12,280 Speaker 1: government of the United States. That's what his father created, 709 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:20,880 Speaker 1: and that's what has taken over politically and at this 710 00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:30,239 Speaker 1: moment is working continuously to tear down the institutions that 711 00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:35,520 Speaker 1: emerged from the Second World War that's saved during that war, 712 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:43,960 Speaker 1: Australia from whence Rupert came by the country that rebuilt 713 00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:50,879 Speaker 1: the world, and any talk about that, and then I'll 714 00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:55,560 Speaker 1: turn it over. I'll ask you one last thing and 715 00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:56,680 Speaker 1: we'll wrap it up. 716 00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,200 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think I have a satisfying answer 717 00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:03,040 Speaker 2: for you, because the truth is, I don't know, and 718 00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:07,719 Speaker 2: I don't know that anyone apart from the person himself, 719 00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:11,680 Speaker 2: can ever know. You know, the kind of depths of 720 00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:16,000 Speaker 2: courage you're able to summon, the depths of self awareness 721 00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,520 Speaker 2: and recognition. I spent a lot of time with him. 722 00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:19,640 Speaker 2: I found him impressive in. 723 00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:21,000 Speaker 3: A lot of ways. He is. 724 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,320 Speaker 2: He's a deep thinker, he's a deep reader. He references history, 725 00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:29,320 Speaker 2: he references philosophy, uh classic works of literature. 726 00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:31,200 Speaker 3: He he he is. 727 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:36,240 Speaker 2: Not a you know, kind of an unthinking, diletent billionaire. 728 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,239 Speaker 2: I've I've interviewed plenty of those as well. 729 00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,719 Speaker 1: I think he's he. 730 00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:50,000 Speaker 2: Is somebody who thinks a lot and where that that 731 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:55,160 Speaker 2: that kind of depth of historical knowledge and philosophical thinking 732 00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,200 Speaker 2: will lead him. I just don't know. I don't know, 733 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,600 Speaker 2: and that, but that, but that's part of again, part 734 00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,360 Speaker 2: of what made him so compelling to me as a 735 00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,759 Speaker 2: subject is that he does have enough self awareness to 736 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,640 Speaker 2: be grappling with some of the questions you just laid out. 737 00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:11,239 Speaker 2: Maybe not quite in the way you laid them out, 738 00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:15,400 Speaker 2: but he's grappling with these things. But I don't know 739 00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,680 Speaker 2: where that grappling will will ultimately lead him. 740 00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:24,000 Speaker 1: It is a fascinating story in a fascinating moment. You know, 741 00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:30,400 Speaker 1: listen again, everybody. Romney a reckoning is a masterpiece of 742 00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:35,840 Speaker 1: political portraiture. It is laugh out loud funny. There is 743 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,520 Speaker 1: something that I'll just say about Mitt Romney that I 744 00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,399 Speaker 1: know to be true, having spent enough time around him. 745 00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:50,040 Speaker 1: He has an author's eye for absurdist detail. Mitt Romney 746 00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,600 Speaker 1: when he walks into a room, and no one would 747 00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,000 Speaker 1: suspect us about Mitt Romney. But Mitt Romney is a 748 00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:02,000 Speaker 1: genuinely funny guy and and his there's different types of 749 00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:07,440 Speaker 1: humor and Mitt Romney's humor. If you think Jerry Seinfeld 750 00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:11,040 Speaker 1: is funny, and I think Jerry Seinfeld is funny, The 751 00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:17,239 Speaker 1: basis of Mitt Romney's humor is his keen eye for absurdism, 752 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:23,600 Speaker 1: and it conveys so deeply in McKay Coppins's book about 753 00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:29,880 Speaker 1: the Senate about this moment. And McKay coppins, because he 754 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,759 Speaker 1: is the best at what he does, has some license 755 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,520 Speaker 1: at the place he works, which is he gets to 756 00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:43,040 Speaker 1: pick out the things that interest him, and I suspect 757 00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:46,279 Speaker 1: has a long leash in pursuing them. And so when 758 00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:50,480 Speaker 1: you read this story in The Atlantic, we'll share as 759 00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:57,120 Speaker 1: we go out about the Murdoch family. It was brilliant, 760 00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:06,120 Speaker 1: It's consequential, It is Shakespearean, uh, it is biblical and astonishing. 761 00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:11,799 Speaker 1: And the drama that begins to play out at the 762 00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:16,800 Speaker 1: instant of Rupert Murdoch's death is something that every person 763 00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:21,520 Speaker 1: in this country is a stakeholder in. And let me 764 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,440 Speaker 1: say I've never said this about another human being. When 765 00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:27,640 Speaker 1: the moment this monster draws his last breath, good reredditence, 766 00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:35,759 Speaker 1: and let the drama begin. And James Murdoch has a 767 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,840 Speaker 1: lot to answer for, as every one of those kids 768 00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:43,120 Speaker 1: does in my view, and we'll see and and you 769 00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:48,360 Speaker 1: begin to see the contours of how they'll approach a 770 00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:55,160 Speaker 1: decision that will redeem a rotten name or dig a 771 00:56:55,200 --> 00:57:00,040 Speaker 1: deeper grave for it. And with that McKay coppins, the 772 00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,240 Speaker 1: very best journalist in America. Thank you for joining the Warning. 773 00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:08,280 Speaker 3: Thanks Steve, and I'm Steve Schmidt. This is the Warning. 774 00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,280 Speaker 1: I invite you to join this community where I promise 775 00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:15,400 Speaker 1: to be honest, blunt and direct about what is happening 776 00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:19,960 Speaker 1: in this country. America is in crisis. Follow and subscribe 777 00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:24,600 Speaker 1: to this channel on YouTube and on substack. Thank you,