1
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,600
Speaker 1: Hello, Stephanomics here, the podcast that brings you the global economy.

2
00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,520
Speaker 1: This week focused on the history of the world since

3
00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,800
Speaker 1: eighteen seventy and President Joe Biden's efforts to be the

4
00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,360
Speaker 1: most pro labor president in living memory. We're all about

5
00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:23,120
Speaker 1: variety here on Stephanomics. No. Two episodes alike. If you're

6
00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,320
Speaker 1: someone who looks at the state of the world and wonders,

7
00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,520
Speaker 1: how on earth did we get here? The economist and

8
00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,720
Speaker 1: blogger Bradford DeLong has a book to sell you, Slouching

9
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,680
Speaker 1: towards Utopia. The way he tells it, you can understand

10
00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,760
Speaker 1: most of what's happened in the world in the past

11
00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,680
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years or so with the help of

12
00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:46,640
Speaker 1: just two central European thinkers and one near universal human trait,

13
00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,479
Speaker 1: fear of freeloading or muching. He and I had a

14
00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,279
Speaker 1: long conversation about all of that recently, which you can

15
00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:56,800
Speaker 1: hear in a few minutes. But first we look at

16
00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,160
Speaker 1: one of the many factors that have made the upcoming

17
00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,360
Speaker 1: US mid To so hard to call President Biden's hot

18
00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:08,120
Speaker 1: and cold relationship with the labor unions. Bloomberg US Economy reported.

19
00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,759
Speaker 1: Molly Smith has the story much of which was reported

20
00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,360
Speaker 1: by her colleague Katy Dmitrieva in the union stronghold of

21
00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:23,400
Speaker 1: McComb County, Michigan. That's what juniors are about, my view,

22
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,800
Speaker 1: by providing dignity and respect for people from bust their neck.

23
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,240
Speaker 1: That's why I created the White House Task Force on

24
00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,240
Speaker 1: Worker Organization Empowerment to make sure the choice to join

25
00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,920
Speaker 1: a union belongs to workers alone. When President Joe Biden

26
00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,880
Speaker 1: came into office, he promised to be the most pro

27
00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,319
Speaker 1: union president in US history, and he takes a lot

28
00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 1: of boxes. In his first two years, he's been vocal

29
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,480
Speaker 1: about the importance of unions. He started a labor task

30
00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,200
Speaker 1: Force and adopted many of its proposals, and most recently,

31
00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,440
Speaker 1: his labor chief Marty Walsh, helped secure a deal for

32
00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,720
Speaker 1: railway workers threatening to strike. But several important policies, like

33
00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,840
Speaker 1: a higher federal minimum wage and laws that would make

34
00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:11,000
Speaker 1: it easier for workers to unionize, were abandoned or remain

35
00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,400
Speaker 1: stuck in Congress. Democrats labor record under Biden will be

36
00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,440
Speaker 1: one of the many things that American workers will weigh

37
00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,000
Speaker 1: as they vote in the midterm elections in November, and

38
00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,840
Speaker 1: too often workers have been uninspired by the president and

39
00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:32,000
Speaker 1: his sympathetic ear in Macomb County, Michigan, historical auto union stronghold,

40
00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,200
Speaker 1: and the sight of a renewed organizing drive among service

41
00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:40,799
Speaker 1: sector workers, things don't look good for Democrats. Here's Alyssa Cokeley,

42
00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,640
Speaker 1: a worker at Starbucks in McComb. I think when it

43
00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,960
Speaker 1: comes to labor, it's been all very for show like

44
00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,160
Speaker 1: performative a little bit. Coakeley led a campaign to unionize

45
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,440
Speaker 1: her cafe where she's a shift supervisor. While they were successful,

46
00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,639
Speaker 1: she and her colleagues say the company is dragging its

47
00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,480
Speaker 1: feet in bargaining. In other words, it's not really any

48
00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,680
Speaker 1: easier to unionize under Biden than previous presidents. Um like

49
00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:12,200
Speaker 1: I know, like recently he invited like a Starbucks worker,

50
00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,480
Speaker 1: like an Amazon worker to the White House, and it

51
00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,440
Speaker 1: was like, okay, that's cool that you got to meet

52
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,760
Speaker 1: with them, but it's like, what or are you doing

53
00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,720
Speaker 1: for for us? Showing support only goes so far. Union

54
00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,160
Speaker 1: membership has declined for decades. In the nineties, one in

55
00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,320
Speaker 1: five U S workers was part of a union. Today

56
00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,680
Speaker 1: it's one in ten. The a f l C i OH,

57
00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,040
Speaker 1: the country's largest labor union, has promised to grow union

58
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,360
Speaker 1: ranks by one million workers over the next decade. Government

59
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,040
Speaker 1: policies could prove decisive for whether or not that happens.

60
00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:57,640
Speaker 1: I think the general consensus in industry is that unions

61
00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:05,080
Speaker 1: create conflict between employees and employers. That was William mackenzie,

62
00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,880
Speaker 1: CEO of Left Coast, a cannabis company in Michigan, and

63
00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,320
Speaker 1: I think that the opposite can be true if an

64
00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:19,080
Speaker 1: employer supports a union the organizing of a workforce. So

65
00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,599
Speaker 1: by supporting the workers, supporting the union, making them feel supported,

66
00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,000
Speaker 1: we really wind up with a situation where we don't

67
00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,800
Speaker 1: have any turnover. The overall consensus is that we care

68
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:35,400
Speaker 1: about our employees, and the employees appreciate that. One thing

69
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,520
Speaker 1: workers want to see is holding companies accountable. The government's

70
00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:44,880
Speaker 1: enforcement arm, the National Labor Relations Board, remains chronically underfunded

71
00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,240
Speaker 1: even under Biden. That means fewer people to investigate companies

72
00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:54,440
Speaker 1: like Starbucks and fewer people to help workers unionize. In McComb,

73
00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,719
Speaker 1: that's important for workers like Mike Davison. He helped unionize

74
00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,680
Speaker 1: his cannabis retails to or only the second in the

75
00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:06,080
Speaker 1: state of Michigan. The n l RB was instrumental for them.

76
00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:10,239
Speaker 1: Staff answered questions, hosted the vote, and are now looking

77
00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,640
Speaker 1: into a complaint filed by workers against the company at

78
00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:19,279
Speaker 1: another location for coercive statements. Overall, though, Davison wants to

79
00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,560
Speaker 1: see the president focus more on workers and do it

80
00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,080
Speaker 1: sooner rather than later. And honestly, I'm not gonna wait

81
00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,080
Speaker 1: for somebody in a big white house to help me.

82
00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to do it right now. I would love

83
00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,200
Speaker 1: a pro union candidate. I love there beat a lot

84
00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:38,080
Speaker 1: more focus politically on workers, the working class, the people

85
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,880
Speaker 1: who show up to their job do work, as opposed to,

86
00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,880
Speaker 1: you know, benefiting the employer class that hires people and

87
00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,840
Speaker 1: makes money from them. There's enough people looking out for them.

88
00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,120
Speaker 1: They have their steak, they have their money, they have

89
00:05:52,240 --> 00:06:05,960
Speaker 1: their security. I need someone looking out for me. M

90
00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,479
Speaker 1: many listeners to this podcast will already know the economic

91
00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,200
Speaker 1: historian and commentator Bradford DeLong, professor of economics at the

92
00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,640
Speaker 1: University of California in Berkeley, an author of the long

93
00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:29,320
Speaker 1: running popular Grasping Reality blog, which I see is now

94
00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,440
Speaker 1: a sub Stack newsletter. So I'm delighted to be able

95
00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,520
Speaker 1: to talk to him about his new book, Slouching Towards Utopia.

96
00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,039
Speaker 1: Brad thanks so much for coming on Stephanomics. Um, it's

97
00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,160
Speaker 1: my great pleasure to be here. Although in this metaverse

98
00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:51,080
Speaker 1: age here is something that's brought with complications slouching towards utopia.

99
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,160
Speaker 1: Is it's a history of the twentieth century that I

100
00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,680
Speaker 1: would say speaks very directly to today's generation of politicians

101
00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,240
Speaker 1: and economists. Not is because you've actually lengthened the century

102
00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,800
Speaker 1: to include most of them, because your twentieth century extends

103
00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,720
Speaker 1: from eighteen seventy to I mean, there's a lot to

104
00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,240
Speaker 1: talk about in your book, but I guess we should

105
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,240
Speaker 1: start by asking you to explain briefly why you think

106
00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:19,360
Speaker 1: that period marks a discreete period of economic history. Because

107
00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:24,520
Speaker 1: before eighteen seventy, our global rate of technological progress was

108
00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,520
Speaker 1: less than a quarter of what it has been eighteen seventy,

109
00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,520
Speaker 1: which meant that before eighteen seventy, there was zero chance

110
00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 1: that humanity would ever be able to bake a sufficiently

111
00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:42,200
Speaker 1: large economic pie so that everyone could even possibly have enough.

112
00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,440
Speaker 1: You know, Thus, governance before eighteen seventy is how does

113
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,280
Speaker 1: an elite manage to run a force and fraud com

114
00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,080
Speaker 1: game on the rest of humanity so they at least

115
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,640
Speaker 1: can have enough. But after eighteen seventy we have the

116
00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,120
Speaker 1: possibility of having a truly human world, of baking a

117
00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,160
Speaker 1: sufficiently large economic pie. And then all we have after

118
00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,800
Speaker 1: that are the minor problems of figuring out how to

119
00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,320
Speaker 1: slice the pie, how to equitably distribute things, and then

120
00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,480
Speaker 1: how to taste the pot, you know, how to use

121
00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,280
Speaker 1: our immense wealth and technological powers to enable us all

122
00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,640
Speaker 1: to live lives wisely. And well, you make the claim

123
00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,440
Speaker 1: that eighteen seventy is the hinge of global economic history,

124
00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,280
Speaker 1: and that's obviously on the basis of what you just said.

125
00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:32,480
Speaker 1: But why um, Because that's when the last three institutions

126
00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,520
Speaker 1: needed to support economic growth that more than two percent

127
00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:41,439
Speaker 1: per year, economic growth that doubles humanities technical competence every generation.

128
00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,199
Speaker 1: Economic growth that makes us potentially twice as rich as

129
00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,720
Speaker 1: our parents were, and does that over and over and

130
00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:53,120
Speaker 1: over again. That's when the last three things fall into place. Um.

131
00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:57,400
Speaker 1: And so the doubling time of humanities technological progress is

132
00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,240
Speaker 1: no longer measured in millennia or unreds of years, or

133
00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,440
Speaker 1: even in the two hundred years it would have taken

134
00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:08,440
Speaker 1: to double humanities technological competence during the Industrial Revolution, But

135
00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,640
Speaker 1: it happens every single generation, and then it happens again

136
00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,760
Speaker 1: at again, And you say yourself that if you're focused

137
00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,800
Speaker 1: on different aspects of history, you've probably come up with

138
00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:18,800
Speaker 1: different dates. And we know that sort of famously, the

139
00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,160
Speaker 1: Marxist historian Eric Hobsborn focused on geopolitics, and then that

140
00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,120
Speaker 1: led him to shorten his twentieth century when he wrote

141
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,480
Speaker 1: about it from nineteen fourteen to nine. Now, as we

142
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,880
Speaker 1: as we've gathered, your focus is on the economic and

143
00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,280
Speaker 1: technological upheavals in this century, and you have got some

144
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,240
Speaker 1: great facts to drive that home, basically that there has

145
00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,920
Speaker 1: been as much or more technological advanced since eighteen seventy

146
00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,240
Speaker 1: as in all the years before that. But one one

147
00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,760
Speaker 1: point that comes through again and again I found reading

148
00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,440
Speaker 1: the book is that our politics are political institutions have

149
00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,520
Speaker 1: not been good at keeping up with that degree of

150
00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:04,079
Speaker 1: economic upheaval in some way. How could they whatever institutions

151
00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,720
Speaker 1: for society we had a generation to go, Even if

152
00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,920
Speaker 1: they worked then, they won't fit the economy now. And

153
00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,720
Speaker 1: whatever we managed to cobble together now, it won't fit

154
00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,760
Speaker 1: the economy in a generation. And so it's frantic attempts

155
00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,600
Speaker 1: to cobble together on the fly, a society that sort

156
00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,840
Speaker 1: of works and kind of holds together. You know, that's

157
00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:29,440
Speaker 1: I think the big story of political economy since eighteen seventy.

158
00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,960
Speaker 1: There's a sort of dialectic running through your book. But

159
00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:38,600
Speaker 1: between the two contrasting theories of actually two central European thinkers,

160
00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,280
Speaker 1: the Austrian economist Friedrich von Hayak and the less well

161
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,440
Speaker 1: known but I agree with you, I think underrated Hungarian

162
00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,800
Speaker 1: philosopher Carl Polani. So so tell us about that. Why

163
00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,800
Speaker 1: do those two thinkers help us understand that dynamic you

164
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:58,200
Speaker 1: just talked about. Friedrich van Hyaku was an absolute genius,

165
00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,960
Speaker 1: was the first person to see that if you properly

166
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,360
Speaker 1: set up the market so you align prices with social values,

167
00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,880
Speaker 1: then the market is uniquely great as a crowd sourcing

168
00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,280
Speaker 1: mechanism for mobilizing human injuruity, you know, instead of having

169
00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,560
Speaker 1: a few people at the top issuing orders, or a

170
00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:22,360
Speaker 1: bureaucracy following standard procedures um, in which case the only

171
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,400
Speaker 1: brain power that's really applied in a bureaucracy is that

172
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,920
Speaker 1: of those who set up the system. With a market,

173
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:33,080
Speaker 1: you are crowdsourcing everyone's human brain and asking everyone what

174
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,520
Speaker 1: can you think of to do to help the situation along,

175
00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,720
Speaker 1: And thus you pushed out the power to act to

176
00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,840
Speaker 1: the periphery of the society where the information is, you know,

177
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,680
Speaker 1: because I'm god knows what the people at the center

178
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,360
Speaker 1: um actually believe what is actually going on out there

179
00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,240
Speaker 1: in the real world. And you also solve the problem

180
00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,240
Speaker 1: of having the people who are actually doing the work

181
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,440
Speaker 1: doing what they're supposed to, because if things are properly aligned,

182
00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:05,760
Speaker 1: then they make a great deal of money and have

183
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,040
Speaker 1: social power as a result, if they in fact do

184
00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,440
Speaker 1: the things that advanced social values in general. UM. So

185
00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,720
Speaker 1: Friedrich von Hayek was great. He saw this. He also

186
00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,800
Speaker 1: very strongly believed to the day he died, that that's

187
00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:25,000
Speaker 1: all the market can do, right. It can't do anything

188
00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,600
Speaker 1: like social justice um. And if we ask it to

189
00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,760
Speaker 1: do social justice, we destroy its ability um to do

190
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,800
Speaker 1: the market to do to create the wealth the market

191
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:41,199
Speaker 1: can um and put us all on the road to servedom.

192
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,600
Speaker 1: So have Freedrich von Hayek, who basically says, the market

193
00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,960
Speaker 1: can be great, and we have to worship it. You know,

194
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,520
Speaker 1: the market giveth, the market taketh away. Blessed be the

195
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,559
Speaker 1: name of the market. Um, that's all we can do.

196
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,600
Speaker 1: We've got to accept that's the best we can do. Um.

197
00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,280
Speaker 1: But Carl Polani said, wait a minute, that doesn't work.

198
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:06,360
Speaker 1: You have a market society, and that dissolves every single

199
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,280
Speaker 1: form of social power other than wealth. That means that

200
00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:14,319
Speaker 1: there are no rights that are respected except for property rights,

201
00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,120
Speaker 1: and the only property rights that are worth anything are

202
00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,319
Speaker 1: those that may help you make things for which the

203
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,320
Speaker 1: rich have a serious jones, you know, and people who

204
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 1: simply will not stand for that. You're going to get

205
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,800
Speaker 1: a very powerful reaction. It may be smart, it may

206
00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,679
Speaker 1: be stupid, it may be genocidal, it may be benevolent,

207
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,679
Speaker 1: but that an attempt to impose the Van Hyaki in

208
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,600
Speaker 1: market view of the world will blow up and explode.

209
00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,720
Speaker 1: And indeed, a huge amount of the politics m of

210
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,760
Speaker 1: the world since eighteteen seventy has been various people for

211
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,319
Speaker 1: whom the market is good saying we should definitely expand

212
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,880
Speaker 1: its role, and all kinds of counter reactions of one

213
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,000
Speaker 1: sort or another. And it's a frame in which you

214
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,200
Speaker 1: can make a good deal of sense of a huge

215
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,400
Speaker 1: amount of stuff that's been going on since eighteen seventy.

216
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,480
Speaker 1: I noticed the review in the economist of your book

217
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,760
Speaker 1: was titled titled money Can't Buy You Love? I mean,

218
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,720
Speaker 1: is that basically the conclusion of the long century? We

219
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,520
Speaker 1: look at all that technological change, and then we look

220
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,920
Speaker 1: at the state of our politics, the state of our

221
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,360
Speaker 1: contentment around the world, this lack of correlation between the

222
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,360
Speaker 1: level of income and happiness. Do you think that? Is

223
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,640
Speaker 1: that that the economist has grasped the fundamental point of

224
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,000
Speaker 1: your book? I do, I do, I do. The thing

225
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,240
Speaker 1: that astonishes me is I suppose how narrow and uneven

226
00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:47,120
Speaker 1: our progress is that we've managed to boost human life

227
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,760
Speaker 1: expectancy from twenty five years to seventy years or so,

228
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:56,040
Speaker 1: and by and large spread that throughout the entire globe um.

229
00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 1: But then we also, although we have a huge world,

230
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,280
Speaker 1: the world with twelve thousand dollars per years, so as

231
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:08,960
Speaker 1: average income per capita um, it's extraordinarily unequally distributed around

232
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,360
Speaker 1: the world. Our ability to produce, even though it's mighty,

233
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:17,880
Speaker 1: the distribution is absolutely stunning the awful. Though we've solved

234
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,520
Speaker 1: the problem of public health to a great degree, we've

235
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,200
Speaker 1: solved the problem of producing enough, we definitely have not

236
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,400
Speaker 1: solved the problem of slicing of equitably distributing it either

237
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:32,880
Speaker 1: around the world or within this country, since I can

238
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:37,160
Speaker 1: go outside the door of my extremely nice house here

239
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,240
Speaker 1: in Berkeley, California, and all I have to do is

240
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,920
Speaker 1: walk a mile to find someone living in a box. Right. Um.

241
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,600
Speaker 1: And then of course the problem of actually utilizing it,

242
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,040
Speaker 1: of taking wealth and using it to create a good

243
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:56,720
Speaker 1: life for yourself, rather than a life in which um,

244
00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:58,760
Speaker 1: for some reason, of what you thought would make you

245
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:04,200
Speaker 1: happy does not UM, and in which you're the technological powers,

246
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,960
Speaker 1: the ability to manipulate nature and command the attention and

247
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,160
Speaker 1: assistance of others that you have is just more rope

248
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 1: with which you can hang yourself in some particularly, And

249
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:19,160
Speaker 1: it's that extraordinary disjunction. Um, when people back in the

250
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,840
Speaker 1: past thought the big problem was the one of production,

251
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 1: and once you would solve that, everything would be fine.

252
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,080
Speaker 1: You know that strikes me as most interesting and most

253
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,920
Speaker 1: terrible about the long twentieth century. I should say to

254
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,640
Speaker 1: anyone listening, I mean, there's what you've just said, But

255
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,160
Speaker 1: also from reading the book, I mean, you absolutely succeed

256
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,680
Speaker 1: in having very interesting nuggets as well as a driving

257
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,360
Speaker 1: narrative on pretty much every page. But that the one

258
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,320
Speaker 1: example that you mentioned Herbert Hoover. I had no idea

259
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,720
Speaker 1: that he had this whole other history um in China

260
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:58,320
Speaker 1: taking over various my im crucial bits of the mining

261
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,640
Speaker 1: industry in in in China before and where he'd come from.

262
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,159
Speaker 1: What was he son of a blacksmith or the blacksmith

263
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,080
Speaker 1: and l and Iowa. Yes, as one of my ex

264
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,120
Speaker 1: roommates said, come for the ad for the high foluting

265
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,560
Speaker 1: abstract political economy theory, stay for the Herbert Hoover gossip.

266
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:29,399
Speaker 1: If technology is to some extent driving the upheaval and

267
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,320
Speaker 1: the or the challenges to the political system, there's also

268
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,320
Speaker 1: a human nature piece that you identify. And what I

269
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:40,840
Speaker 1: thought was a pretty crucial observation towards the end of

270
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,800
Speaker 1: the book which were used, which is really comes down

271
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 1: to the fear of Moocha's being a sort of driving

272
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,440
Speaker 1: source of instability. And you say humans, at least we

273
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,960
Speaker 1: humans see society as a network of reciprocal gift exchange relationships,

274
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,919
Speaker 1: and as a general principle, we agree that all of

275
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,240
Speaker 1: us do much better if we do things for one another,

276
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,320
Speaker 1: rather than requiring that individuals do everything for themselves. We

277
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,320
Speaker 1: don't always want to be the receiver we don't always

278
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,280
Speaker 1: want to be the giver, and we tend to disapprove

279
00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,720
Speaker 1: whenever we see a situation where we think someone is

280
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,560
Speaker 1: following a strategy of always being a receiver. And I

281
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,679
Speaker 1: guess the summary of that is fear of mooching. So

282
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,760
Speaker 1: that did that was very resonant to me. I mean,

283
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,000
Speaker 1: that did seem to me a fundamental issue which has

284
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,840
Speaker 1: perhaps been exacerbated by technological change. Yes, and I am,

285
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,600
Speaker 1: in fact I think they stall this from the wonderful

286
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,080
Speaker 1: Paul cy Bright, who has an excellent book called In

287
00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,119
Speaker 1: the Company of Strangers, you know, which makes this point

288
00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:43,119
Speaker 1: among others. But there is an extremely strong sense that,

289
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,879
Speaker 1: at least those of us whose cultures bring the Indo

290
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,280
Speaker 1: European part of the tree, that the idea of a

291
00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,639
Speaker 1: guest and a host and reciprocal obligations between them is

292
00:18:53,840 --> 00:19:00,000
Speaker 1: very very very strong, um. And that means that, you know, um,

293
00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,880
Speaker 1: that we are very strongly committed to not just think

294
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,359
Speaker 1: that people deserve things, that we deserve things based on

295
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,040
Speaker 1: how we have we have acted and how we are,

296
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,359
Speaker 1: you know, but that other people deserve things based on

297
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,360
Speaker 1: how they have acted, you know, and how they are,

298
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,720
Speaker 1: and especially that other people do not should not have

299
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:27,879
Speaker 1: more than they deserve. For example, they're surprising fuss in

300
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:34,119
Speaker 1: the past two weeks over what is a small um

301
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,920
Speaker 1: shift in America's resources that moves thirty five billion dollars

302
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,840
Speaker 1: a year from the federal government to people with student

303
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,320
Speaker 1: loan balances. We have Ted Cruz. They're saying that it's

304
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,679
Speaker 1: an absolute offense to give ten thousand dollars to you know,

305
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 1: a slacker barista who majored in lesbian dance therapy. You know, now, look,

306
00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,040
Speaker 1: I mean Ted Cruz is does is in fact a

307
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:05,560
Speaker 1: second generation Cuban Canadian American immigrant who has kind of

308
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:10,399
Speaker 1: clawed himself up from a position of substantial social disadvantage

309
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,919
Speaker 1: to a position of wealth and eminence. Um and he maneuver,

310
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,879
Speaker 1: but he maneuvers in a world in which there are

311
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 1: also people like me. And my grandfather was at one

312
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 1: time the richest man between Tampa and Orlando and hired

313
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 1: the engineers who created and owned the patent for the

314
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,280
Speaker 1: technology for taking sulfur out of natural gas, so you

315
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,199
Speaker 1: can use natural gas without making your house smell like

316
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 1: the pit of hell um And from him, I've gotten

317
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars a year, not once, but it's correctively

318
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 1: every single year of my life. Um, And is Ted

319
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,440
Speaker 1: Cruz incredibly angry with me because by now I have

320
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,880
Speaker 1: gotten sixty two times what the mythical slacker barista who

321
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 1: edred and lesbian dance therapy at Sarah Lawrence. God, you know, no,

322
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 1: he isn't mad at all. It's interesting because one of

323
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 1: the what I was one of the things I was

324
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 1: going to say was that possibly the other bit of

325
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,439
Speaker 1: human nature that you're battling with often when you have

326
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,960
Speaker 1: the kind of mindset that you have when you look

327
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 1: at the world today and the desire for greater, more equal,

328
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 1: equal distribution of income and power, is you're almost always

329
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,199
Speaker 1: also battling with people's desire to help their kids. And

330
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 1: that is a basic human desire that it gets in

331
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 1: the way of otherwise quite obviously sensible taxes on capital

332
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,719
Speaker 1: and wealth and indeed on the heritance that you just

333
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 1: talked about. Even when it's attacks on wealth that is

334
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 1: affecting a very small percentage, the fear that it will

335
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,880
Speaker 1: interfere with people's efforts to improve the lives of their

336
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 1: kids and give them an upper hand is a pretty

337
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 1: potent political force. Yeah, I don't know. I mean I

338
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: I have had a debate with my friend Glenn Huggard

339
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 1: you over this at the Baker Center in Texas a

340
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,159
Speaker 1: while ago, you know, And I was pointing out to

341
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 1: him that on talking for I was strongly advocating a

342
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 1: return of the inheritance tax um, and I used Glenn

343
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 1: is an example, saying that the oss is a longtime consultant,

344
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 1: and as dean of Columbia's Business School, he's rather rich,

345
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,919
Speaker 1: and yet his parents have lots of other educational um

346
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,640
Speaker 1: and kind of educational and cultural advantages, and he has

347
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 1: raised his children very well for success in this world,

348
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 1: and so why should they also get, you know, the

349
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: privilege of a substantial inheritance from Glenn when there are

350
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 1: people for whom, you know, single mothers, for whom an

351
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 1: extra forty dollars so they can take their kids out

352
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:59,400
Speaker 1: to McDonald's one extra time would be worthwhile. And Glenn's

353
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,400
Speaker 1: reactions ruck me as very interesting, and it was you know, yes,

354
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,160
Speaker 1: that the cultural capital that you contribute to your children

355
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 1: by how you raised them is overwhelmingly by far the

356
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 1: most important part of what you do. Um. So then

357
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 1: financial inheritances are kind of a second or third order thing,

358
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,360
Speaker 1: and we shouldn't worry about them and shouldn't text them.

359
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 1: But then if they're not important, then it doesn't matter

360
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: so much to text them. And you know, I'm glad

361
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 1: it's not dumb, but still you can see, UM, you

362
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: can see his mind trying to cling to not reaching

363
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: the conclusion that he ought to be in favor of

364
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,239
Speaker 1: inheritance tances because if he were in favor of them,

365
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: he would in some way failing to failing his duty

366
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:49,160
Speaker 1: to his kids. UM. And yeah, you know we are

367
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: we are network, a network species UM, structured in guest

368
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,959
Speaker 1: host gift exchange relationships. And we are a emily species,

369
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: you know, structured across time and who is related to who?

370
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 1: You know? So much so that we find it very

371
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: hard to assemble a large scale political organization without turning

372
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: it into some kind of fictitious kinship, you know organization. UM.

373
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: That gives us hope, right because right now our economy

374
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,919
Speaker 1: is so complex and so complicated that we really are

375
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 1: engaged in a gift exchange relationship UM with the people

376
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 1: ten thousand miles away. Right there is someone whose house

377
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,880
Speaker 1: is underwater in Pakistan right now, who probably did something

378
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: we have wove the wool that could have been in

379
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: the carpet that my feet are now resting up, you know.

380
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 1: And we also are extremely closely related. Right I'm told

381
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: there's more genetic diversity in a single baboon troop than

382
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: in the entire human race as of now. So we

383
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: ought to be able to turn these things towards your

384
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: mutual benefit and social solidarity. Um, yet we have a

385
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: hard time doing so, and it seems that we've if

386
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: we need some kind of mutual respect to carve out

387
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: a different direction, we're we're quite far away from that.

388
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,199
Speaker 1: If if more, if we increasingly feel we're surrounded by

389
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: mucha's yes, yes, yes, or we're we're fear, we fear

390
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: that we are so briefly point to us some sort

391
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: of straws in the wind or chinks of light where

392
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: people have actually are recognizing that where you think there's

393
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: signs of of of hope, that we could be moving

394
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: in a better direction in some parts of the world,

395
00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: some or some battle. The incredible, um incredible technological competence

396
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 1: of humanity today absolutely astonishes me. And the extraordinarily fall

397
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: in the price of renewable energy, you know, that has

398
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: happened in the past fifteen years gives me enormous hope.

399
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: You know that it is twenty nine years ago. You know,

400
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: I was tramping through the halls of the Capitol Building, UM,

401
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: trying to help carrying spears for Larry Summers and others

402
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: as they tried to lobby and hold the Democratic Coalition

403
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: together for the Clinton Reconciliation Bill, including the BTU tax.

404
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 1: But we got within one vote of getting the BTU

405
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: tax in. And back then we strongly believed, I strongly

406
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: believed that you needed not just a characteristic in order

407
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 1: to deal with global warming. You know that it was

408
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: going to be nasty and expensive to shift the economy

409
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:04,239
Speaker 1: away to a less energy intensive configuration, simply because all

410
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 1: the stored sunlight in coal and oil is such a

411
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: great way of accessing solar power, albeit the solar power

412
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: of the sun from half a billion years ago, UM,

413
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: And that there really was going to be no substitute. Well,

414
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: lo and behold, now there is. And now we don't

415
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 1: need the stick. All we need is the carrot. All

416
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: we need is a little bit of subsidies to make

417
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: investments that make sense on their own, and we can

418
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: move extremely rapidly to keep ourselves from cooking the planet

419
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: much more. You know that gives enormous hope. Another good

420
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: straw on the wind from the Steve Jobs archive. Um,

421
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: you know a email Steve Job sent to himself in

422
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: two thousand and ten. Um, that begins, I grow little

423
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 1: of the food I eat of the little I do grow.

424
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: I do not breed or perfect the seeds. I do

425
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: not make any of my own clothing. I speak a

426
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 1: language I did not invent or refined. I did not

427
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: discover the mathematics I use. I am protected by freedoms

428
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: and laws I did not conceive of or they just

429
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: like um. And you know, here is Steve, who, in

430
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: the libertarian iconography is one of the great heroes, you know,

431
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: one of the job creators, one of the John Galts, who,

432
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,719
Speaker 1: by his sheer brain and force of personality, you know,

433
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: accomplished huge amounts of stuff. Um, you know, one of

434
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: the bosses who deserves to have as much as possible.

435
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: You know. And he did not view it this way.

436
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: He recognized that he was just you know that he

437
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: was indeed standing on the shoulders of giants, as Sir

438
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: Isaac who put it and without the giants on whose

439
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: shoulders he was standing on, he was unable to do

440
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: pretty much, and he would have not have been able

441
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: to do anything. And the fact that we have that consciousness,

442
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: that we have that powers that can we can bring

443
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: out the sides of our fear and of what otherwise

444
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: comes out as fear and suspicion of others getting above

445
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: themselves is I does I think provide great cause for hope.

446
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: Brad DeLong, thanks very much. That's it for Stephonomics next week,

447
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: more on the US and maybe Brazil too, who knows.

448
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: But check out the Bloomberg News website for a lot

449
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: more economic news and views on the global economy, and

450
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: follow at economics on Twitter. This episode was produced by

451
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: Summer Sadi Yang Yang and Magnus Henrickson. Special thanks to

452
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: Bradford DeLong, Cata Dmitrieva, and Molly Smith. Mike Sasso is

453
00:29:54,960 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: the executive producer of Stephanomics