1 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine, Hey fam Today on the bright Side, we're 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: kicking off a week of love and romance ahead of 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: Valentine's Day, and today's show is a must listen. Throw 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: out every piece of advice about love you've ever been given, 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: because today we're learning how to be our own best life. 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,159 Speaker 1: Partner with writer Megan Cain. Her new book Party of 7 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: One is a fearless approach to self love. She'll dish 8 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: on how to shed the stigma of being alone, build 9 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: a life you love, and the power of building community. 10 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: It's Monday, February tenth. I'm Simone Voice, I'm. 11 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 2: Danielle Robe and this is the bright Side from Hello Sunshine. 12 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: On my Mind Monday is brought to you by Lareel Paris. 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 3: Okay, Danielle, So what is on your mind? Loven Maris? Okay, 14 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 3: here's why. 15 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: I read a piece in the Atlantic called America's marriage 16 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 2: material shortage. Whooh do you think we have one? 17 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 4: Anecdotally? 18 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 2: Yes, right, My friends and I talk about this all 19 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 2: the time because it feels like there's not enough good 20 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: men for all the great women we know. 21 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 3: So but like you said, it's all anecdotal. 22 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: So this article says that a lot of young people 23 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 2: are not even dating anymore. There's a significant decline in 24 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 2: youth romance. There's even a decline in twelfth graders dating. 25 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 2: It's fallen from about eighty five percent in the nineteen 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 2: eighties to less than fifty percent in the twenty twenties. 27 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 3: What is this shark decline about. 28 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 2: It can't just be self love, Like love is such 29 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 2: a human instinct. 30 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, what is this about? I mean, the first thing 31 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: that comes to mind for me. I can only think 32 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: about it from a woman's perspective, right, because that's my experience. 33 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:52,559 Speaker 1: Women are increasingly living bigger and bigger lives and doing 34 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: so outside of the context of a partnership. You know, 35 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: women are postponing child rearing and marriage and all these 36 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: traditional deadlines that society has imposed upon us. 37 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 3: And I wonder if that's part of it. 38 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 4: If in that shift. 39 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: Towards these these bigger lives, women are just deprioritizing and 40 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: decentering relationships. 41 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think there's an economic factor here too. 42 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 2: Women don't really need a partner anymore. But what's interesting is, 43 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 2: like these studies talk about twelfth graders in general, so 44 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 2: it's not just women. I don't know it feels like 45 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 2: the world is really renegotiating what love and relationships look like, 46 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 2: what marriage looks like. And I think it's an interesting 47 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: topic to think more deeply about as Valentine's Day is approaching, 48 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,839 Speaker 2: when people are really thinking and focusing on love. 49 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 3: Right, Yes, our guest today is here to flip the script. 50 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: She's offering a different perspective on the way we value relationships, 51 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: and really she's challenging us to rethink everything we know 52 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: about romance, partnership, and love. She's here to remind us 53 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: that the most important relationship we'll ever have, the one 54 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: that shape every other connection, is the one we have 55 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: with ourselves. 56 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: And our guest today just wants to toss out the 57 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 2: rule book on love. At a time when everyone is 58 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 2: obsessing over dinner reservations and the perfect Valentine's Day plans, 59 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,839 Speaker 2: She's inviting us to do something completely opposite, to look 60 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 2: inward and maybe even redefine what love and relationships mean 61 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: and look like. 62 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:22,679 Speaker 3: Our guest is Megan Kin. 63 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: She's the writer of a book called Party of One, 64 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: Be your own best life Partner, and she's also the 65 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: founder of NPR's Life Kit podcast, which brings listeners advice 66 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 1: about personal finance, health, and of course, relationships. 67 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 2: After a couple of really rocking breakups, Megan decided to 68 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 2: look at her life and approach love completely different. She says, 69 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: it's really important to spend some time alone. 70 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: Yes, and what's kind of sweet about her story is 71 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: that she now has a partner. So I'm really curious 72 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: to hear how embracing this idea ended up leading her 73 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: to potentially the love of her life. Danielle, I know 74 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: you had a wonderful conversation with her, and I'm really 75 00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: excited to hear. 76 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely my conversation with Megan Kin right after the break 77 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: Thanks to our partners at Lorel Paris, because you're worth it. 78 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: From skincare to hair care and everything in between, Loreal 79 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: Paris delivers expert backed beauty that empowers confidence. Discover your 80 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: perfect routine at Lorel Paris USA dot com. 81 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 3: Megan, Welcome to the bright Side. 82 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. 83 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: I'm so excited to talk to you today, not just 84 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 2: because I'm single, but also because you were on a 85 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: mission to challenge popular conventions about love and relationships, and 86 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 2: I think that this message is so needed in our culture. 87 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: Inciting makes us feel that we have to be in 88 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: a relationship to feel complete, and you're saying it's okay 89 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 2: to be single. What made you want to challenge the 90 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 2: conventional ideology around relationships and love? 91 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 3: Why take this on? 92 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 5: Well, in my mid to late twenties, I was thinking 93 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 5: a lot about how I didn't have a boyfriend, how 94 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 5: I had been in a serious relationship. And now, of 95 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 5: course I've had plenty of different types of relationships. I 96 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 5: had friendships, I had relationships with mentors and coaches and 97 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 5: all these other people in my life, but of course 98 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 5: what culture puts on a pedestal is the romantic relationship. 99 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,799 Speaker 5: So I was really in my head about what that meant. 100 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 5: And even though I knew that being on your own 101 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 5: was very valid, there was nothing to be ashamed of it. 102 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 5: I had a hard time bridging my head in my heart. 103 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 5: I wanted to kind of slow things down and understand 104 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 5: where exactly this pressure was coming from, even though I 105 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 5: knew about it, How do I actually start to feel 106 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 5: in my body that I could take down the pressure 107 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 5: and have a calm no matter what my relationship status 108 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 5: would be. 109 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 2: I actually think that your late twenties are often the 110 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: time where you start thinking about that because you've had 111 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 2: maybe some good relationships, some bad relationships, some people none 112 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: at all, and you start really taking stock. I'm curious 113 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 2: how things like movies and books and romance novels sort 114 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 2: of impacted your view on these relationships. Yeah. 115 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 4: Absolutely so. I'm an elder millennial. 116 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 5: So I came up in the Disney you know, renaissance 117 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 5: of you know, the Little Mermaid beating the Beast, and 118 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 5: you know, of course there's so much good social criticism 119 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 5: about why those are flowed. Right, I'm not making anything 120 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 5: new here, of course, it's like your princess that needs 121 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 5: to be saved, and then the rest of your life 122 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 5: starts at this like adult coronation of a wedding, right, 123 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 5: and then again after that, good luck. 124 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 4: We don't know really what happens to you after that. 125 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 5: And you know, but I think by the time I 126 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 5: got to middle school, high school, I knew I didn't 127 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 5: want to be a princess. 128 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 4: I was like, that's not me. I'm independent. 129 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 5: But then like even movies like the kind of like 130 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 5: team rom coms of the early two thousands that were 131 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 5: so based on like you're a loser if you're you know, 132 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 5: pursuing art, like Rachel Lee Cook and you know, shoes 133 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 5: all that and have like glasses in a ponytail that 134 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 5: if you are somehow not conforming to the absolute norm, 135 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 5: you're seen as an outcast. 136 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: Do you remember the moment you realize no one was 137 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 2: coming to save you. 138 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 4: I think pretty early in my twenties, I. 139 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 5: Would say I had like needed someone that was like 140 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 5: my friend's realm me, you know how it is in 141 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 5: your early twenties. And we went on like a handful 142 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 5: of dates, if you could even call them that. 143 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 4: Like, it was all very like unclear, and I could. 144 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 5: Tell he was starting to really distance himself and maybe 145 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 5: not really fully goes me because we had mutual friends, 146 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 5: but be like, this is not happening anymore. And I 147 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 5: remember sitting on the floor of my kitchen like just crying, 148 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 5: and I was like, I know, breakup suck. 149 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 4: Is this even a breakup? 150 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 3: I don't know. 151 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 4: There was no labels, but I was like. 152 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 5: Oh, I can't depend on other people to make me 153 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 5: feel a certain way, because if anyone's ever done a 154 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 5: group project, working with other people or depending on other 155 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 5: people to achieve a goal can be very hard. So 156 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 5: I think that was the beginning seeds of like I 157 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 5: need to figure out how this works in my life, 158 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 5: in my body, in my psyche, so I can feel 159 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 5: at least stable, not even just good, I would say, 160 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 5: like stable. 161 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: As horrible as breakups are, you know, I don't wish 162 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: them on my worst enemy. You are broken open in 163 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: a way that I think there's so much room for 164 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: incredible growth and self reflection. Would you categorize your relationships 165 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 2: as having been good or bad? 166 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 3: Or where do you see them? 167 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 5: When I look back up my relationships in my twenties 168 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 5: that I write about in the book, I would not 169 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 5: call them bad. 170 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 4: I was not showing up authentically in them. I thought 171 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 4: I was because I was. 172 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 5: Feeling like myself in those relationships and that I had chemistry, 173 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 5: because there is such an emphasis when you're dating on 174 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 5: your chemistry in chemistry's important, right, Like you want to 175 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 5: feel that you know that sparkin that flow with someone. 176 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 5: But I think I thought chemistry alone would take me far. 177 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 5: And what I didn't realize was I had to I 178 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 5: was silencing myself in a lot of ways where I 179 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 5: was not saying, actually, I don't like it when we 180 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 5: interact in this way, or why did we have this fight, 181 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 5: like that's it's weird to me, or do you even 182 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 5: want kids? 183 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 4: Like even but like I'm trying to figure it out 184 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 4: myself too. 185 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 5: We need to figure that out if we're getting past 186 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 5: a certain point, because I need to know one way 187 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 5: or the other. 188 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 4: And so I don't think they were bad and necessarily in. 189 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 5: Terms of relationship, I wasn't my full authentic self in 190 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 5: them because I was so conditioned like some many of 191 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 5: us are, to just see, hey, you check the box. 192 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 4: Great, Now shut up. You're in a relationship. And that's so. 193 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 5: Unfortunate because in the best case scenario it was, you know, 194 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 5: for me that like nothing really necessarily bad, cap But 195 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 5: in the worst case is that you say, with that 196 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 5: person for a very long time or something much darker happens. Right, 197 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 5: So it's not to say this is anyone's fault necessarily, 198 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 5: But looking back on those relationships, I'm glad that they happen. 199 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 4: I'm glad they're in the rearview mirror. 200 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 2: You mentioned in your book that you feel like you 201 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 2: were part of this rare club in your twenties. 202 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 3: What does that mean. 203 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 5: Yeah, so it really feels like between singles and those relationships, 204 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 5: there's like this like kind of like divide right where 205 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 5: you're like, if you're single, like you're in a waiting 206 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 5: room almost, and then like through this door, this magical 207 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 5: door is the club of couple people, right. And once 208 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 5: I crossed that threshold, I had this ugly confidence about 209 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 5: what it meant to be in a relationship. I felt 210 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 5: very proud and kind of like, look at us for 211 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 5: holding each other's hands in public. I'm in a relationship, 212 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 5: like kind of very performative and like not really focusing 213 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 5: on again, things that are actually important in a relationship, 214 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 5: just kind of showing off the sense of a relationship 215 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 5: for folks. And the club felt like, you know, it's 216 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 5: exactly that, it's an exclusion you know, it's an exclusionary right. 217 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 5: Clubs are inherently closed off. And what I begin to 218 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 5: see is like we don't service anybody when we think 219 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 5: about singles versus married people. Right, So when we turn 220 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 5: down the pressure on what it means to be single, 221 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 5: when we destigmatize what it means to be single, I 222 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 5: think what it does is it has an interesting impact 223 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 5: on couples, because what it does is it shows couples, hey, 224 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 5: I can think about my own personhood within a relationship. 225 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 5: I can think about how single people are part of 226 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 5: my community who would have thought right, and then those 227 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 5: single people feel like treated better by people who are 228 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 5: coupled off in their life. 229 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 4: So there's less of this like versus each. 230 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 5: Other kind of dynamic, and I think a more colistic 231 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 5: community can come into play. 232 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 2: I'm really interested and something that you write about in 233 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: your book called the haze, and you say that it 234 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: contributes to the way that we see relationships. What is 235 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 2: the haze and how does it play out in the 236 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: way that we think about what we should want? 237 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 5: So the Hayes is my metaphor for all the societal 238 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 5: messages that we receive that can really engulf us and 239 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 5: make us think that that's our whole reality. Right, Like, 240 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 5: think about driving like a car through fog. It feels like, ah, 241 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 5: you can't even see two feet in front of you, 242 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 5: and it feels suffocating. 243 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 4: But when reality on the other side of that fog, 244 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 4: when you drive out. 245 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 5: Of the haze and the clouds, you see so much 246 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 5: around you, like the world gets bigger again, right, And 247 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 5: I was trying to think of something that really felt like, 248 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 5: something that doesn't necessarily feel that invasive or harmful but 249 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 5: it kind of does envelop you and sneak up on 250 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 5: you and literally clouds your judgment about. 251 00:12:58,400 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 4: What you want. 252 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 5: I think what I chose the metaphor of the Hayes 253 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 5: is because you can always kind of like poke your 254 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 5: head out if you want, right, all you have to 255 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 5: do is be aware of it, like the kind of 256 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 5: classic therapy talk of name entertainment. 257 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 4: Right. 258 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 5: And so for me, the Hayes is it's just exactly 259 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 5: how I felt, was like I feel consumed by all 260 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 5: these messages that are telling me you need to have 261 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 5: a relationship, you need to have a romantic relationship, you 262 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 5: need to get married, without me thinking for myself, well 263 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 5: what do I actually want? 264 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 4: Even if I do want. 265 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 5: To have a partner and get married, what does that 266 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 5: actually look like to me? Not what everyone else is 267 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 5: telling me? And the whole process of the book was 268 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 5: kind of just picking off that haze and like stepping 269 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 5: through and out of it so I could think, Okay, 270 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 5: what do I actually want? 271 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 4: Not just what is right in front of me? 272 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 2: How did you step out of it? Was it therapy? 273 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: Did you ask yourself questions? Definitely a lot of therapy. 274 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 5: I think what it was the mission for me in 275 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 5: this book too, Again was really how do I internalize 276 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 5: these messages of living day to day of it's okay 277 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 5: to be single, because again I knew intellectually that was 278 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 5: the case, but sometimes you just feel sad, right because 279 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 5: you feel sad? And I had to think about what 280 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 5: was making me over the top upset, and what I 281 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 5: kept coming back to was shame. 282 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 4: Was the shame that was. 283 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 5: Being layered onto feeling frustration or upset or that date 284 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 5: didn't go well, or man, I thought this was promising. 285 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 5: We had five dates, it's not great, and then damn, 286 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 5: like everything just. 287 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 4: Bought himed out from me. 288 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 5: And when in fact, you can just focus on I 289 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 5: feel sad because I feel sad, you can really boil 290 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 5: it down because the layer of shame that gets kind 291 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 5: of vacillined over all of the rest of that is 292 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 5: the thing that actually is creating the upset. I was 293 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 5: thinking a lot about how I also like live in 294 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 5: my head right, how we all do, and the kind 295 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 5: of story I was telling myself, and how I could 296 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 5: you know, rain those back in to get down to reality. 297 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: My best friend from college just said something so similar. 298 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 2: We were at dinner the other night and she's thirty three. 299 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 2: I'm thirty four, and she was like, can you believe 300 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: this is our life? Like I never thought we would 301 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 2: both all three of us were sitting there, single, and 302 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 2: she was like, the weird part is that I'm having 303 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 2: this dissonance that I'm actually the happiest I've ever been. 304 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: I wake up really happy, really self assured. I have 305 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 2: a career, I like, I have friends, I love. I 306 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 2: don't necessarily feel like I need this thing, and yet 307 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 2: I feel like I need this thing. 308 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, because the conditioning is very, very strong. 309 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 4: I think it is. 310 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 5: Great to see that there is such a wave of 311 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 5: support for platonic love and you know, really appreciating all 312 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 5: the different types of love in one's life. There's this 313 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 5: Harvard study that I write about. It's like one of 314 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 5: the longest studies on human development. And they tracked like 315 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 5: something like seven hundred men over like decades and decades, 316 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 5: and they watched their relationships, their work, their health, all 317 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 5: these their hobbies, all these different factors. 318 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 4: And one of the biggest things that came out. 319 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 5: Of the study was the key to live happier and 320 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 5: healthier is to have good relationships of all kinds. They 321 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 5: didn't single out romance or marriage as the magic bullet, right, 322 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 5: it was all kinds. 323 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 4: Of all different levels. 324 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: Well, as we think about happiness and look to find 325 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: our own happiness or live within the happiness we have 326 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 2: right now, you stress that the validation we're looking for. 327 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 3: Comes from us, not from another person. 328 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 2: What do you think is one thing that we can 329 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 2: do for ourselves to start practicing that mindset. 330 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 4: I'm a really big fan of values. I know I've 331 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 4: mentioned a few times here. 332 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 5: I think what helps turn down the pressure for yourself 333 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 5: about needing a relationship or like you feel like your 334 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 5: life can't start until you have a relationship, is to 335 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 5: get really clear about what values you have to certain goals. 336 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 5: Because the thing about a goal is that it's automatically 337 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 5: past fail right. Yes, if you are trying to be 338 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 5: married and that's a goal, well that you're either a 339 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 5: failure right up until you get married, and then you're 340 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 5: technically a success, and then even that feels like a 341 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 5: little backwards. 342 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 2: Right right, And then is divorce a failure or is 343 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 2: it a success of however many years in the life you. 344 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 5: Built exactly it's so fraught and like I think, not 345 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 5: very helpful, so totally what you could do is think 346 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 5: about what values you have underneath that. Well, maybe it's 347 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 5: you really value community, right, you want to you want 348 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 5: you like family. Once you see those values, you can 349 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 5: be a lot more flexible about how those things are expressed. 350 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 5: And I think when you give yourself flexibility about how 351 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 5: you show up for yourself and what you want out 352 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 5: of life, the world is going to open up so 353 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 5: much more than if you think I only need this 354 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 5: type of relationship I need to have, you know it. 355 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 4: Also when it comes to career, I need this exact 356 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 4: type of. 357 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 5: Job, right, Like, so many things are out of your 358 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 5: control about those things. 359 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 4: Whereas if you can think, okay, well I. 360 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 5: Really value creativity, right, Like, you don't necessarily have to 361 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 5: wait to get into a certain MFA program and then 362 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 5: pay a lot of money out of pocket to like 363 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 5: get an expensive degree. You could start an accountability group, 364 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 5: or you write together with friends, right, or you get 365 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 5: together to draw. Like there's I think just like kind 366 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 5: of shrinking down to a smaller scale what your values 367 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:44,719 Speaker 5: are can show you all these different paths about creating 368 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 5: a ridge. 369 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 3: Life that makes absolute sense. 370 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 2: So you debunk some really compelling myths about marriage and 371 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 2: love and there's a few that I love. 372 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 3: One is that marriage has always been for love. 373 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's something I think we all know intellectually when 374 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 5: we watch like I don't know, like thrones or anything 375 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,199 Speaker 5: that takes place in like the distant past. We know 376 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 5: that marriages are often a tool for politics and power 377 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 5: and money, right, and have been for a long time. 378 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 4: But we think we're very evolved and that it's you know, marriage. 379 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 5: Is only for love, But we forget that it was 380 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 5: a kind of recent ish invention to marry for love. 381 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 5: This idea that love is the only reason we marry 382 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 5: is relatively new, and so you know, especially in American 383 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 5: and Western life, romantic love and moderate or in love 384 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 5: marriages as they're called, didn't really come about until like 385 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 5: the Victorian era. This interesting thing happens in the Victorian ERAa, 386 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 5: where the Industrial Revolution meant that you could leave your 387 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 5: families farm right and create get a living wage outside 388 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 5: of your family. You didn't have to worry about marrying 389 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,719 Speaker 5: into another family as the main way to combine and 390 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 5: gain resources. You could actually be a little bit more independent. 391 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 5: And so I think that plus kind of pop culture 392 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 5: sensibilities kind of made it so that love marriages kind 393 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 5: of became the new thing. And then there's this also 394 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 5: this fascinating idea about how this. 395 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 4: Idea of traditional marriage. 396 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 5: Traditional two of course, you know, is how it was 397 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 5: always meant to be that kind of leave it to 398 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 5: Beaver style type of marriage, where we have the nineteen 399 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 5: fifties housewife at home with the two kids in the 400 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 5: white pig defense husband goes off. But what was so 401 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 5: helpful to learn from this historian symphony Coots is that 402 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 5: was actually a complete blip in the timeline of marriage, 403 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 5: especially in America. It was right after World War Two, 404 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 5: when wages were actually pretty. 405 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 4: High and men were coming home for war and there 406 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 4: could be one breadwinner at the home. 407 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 5: And actually women were getting married at a slightly younger 408 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 5: age around the nineteen fifties than they were even sixty 409 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 5: years prior. And I think it's really telling that from 410 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 5: nineteen sixty on in America the age of a first 411 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 5: marriage has steadily gone up. It has not gone down 412 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 5: since that time in the fifties. So it's a good 413 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 5: remind that what we think of as quote unquote traditional 414 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,479 Speaker 5: is never that, it is always evolving. In fact, that 415 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 5: very specific view of marriage was such a small timeline 416 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 5: in the history of marriage, and I think knowing that 417 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 5: is really powerful because it is marriage and how we 418 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 5: love and decide a partner is always evolving and changing 419 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 5: and bumping up against structures. 420 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 4: It is not a vacuum. 421 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 2: We have to take another short break, but we'll be 422 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 2: back in just a minute. 423 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 3: Don't go anywhere, and we're back. 424 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 2: So you really advocate for taking yourself out on dates, 425 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 2: and I have to tell you, the want to do 426 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 2: that run the gamut. 427 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 3: Some people love it. 428 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 2: And they're so good at going to a restaurant by themselves. 429 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 2: Some people are like, hell, no, I would never do that. 430 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 2: I'm okay going to a restaurant by myself. I don't 431 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 2: know if I don't go to a movie by myself. 432 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 4: Oh that's interesting. 433 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 5: I feel like the thing about dining alone is that's 434 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 5: almost like the quote unquote most vulnerable. I don't necessarily 435 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 5: agree with that, but I find most people like have that. 436 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 5: For me, I loved going to the movies by myself 437 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 5: because you don't have to talk with anybody. 438 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 2: You just sell us staring at a screen. You know 439 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 2: that's true. Yeah, And you get the snacks you want. 440 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 2: There's no compromise. Well. 441 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 5: One thing to always remember too, is like I've never 442 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 5: been out in the world and saw someone just on 443 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 5: their own and thought, oh my god, they're so sad. 444 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 5: It doesn't even cross my mind. 445 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 3: I kind of look at them and think, oh, they're 446 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 3: so awesome. 447 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, So like you could be that awesome person too. 448 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 4: So I love taking. 449 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 5: Myself to the movies, I love reading in public. I'm 450 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 5: going to go out because I'm a creative person. 451 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 4: I need more input. 452 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 5: This is the idea of the artist state, is like 453 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 5: giving yourself more input for your creativity. So that could 454 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 5: be going to a arts and supply store just seeing 455 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 5: what they have new they're browsing, doing that, go into 456 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 5: a bookstore by yourself, going to a museum exhibit by yourself. 457 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: Oh I like a museum alone. There's this really interesting 458 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 2: statistic that I want to ask you about. According to 459 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 2: a twenty twenty three US Surgeon General's Advisory, half of 460 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 2: US adults reported some measurable loneliness. Yeah, but you say, 461 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 2: there's a big difference between loneliness and being alone. This 462 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 2: is a topic that is close to my heart. First 463 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 2: of all, what is the difference between loneliness and being alone. 464 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 5: Well, you know it's interesting too because in that same 465 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 5: Surgeon General's advisory about loneliness, they even point to the 466 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 5: idea of alone versus lonely that like chronic loneliness poses 467 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 5: serious health threats, there is no getting around that that 468 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 5: is an epidemic, but adoptive loneliness and like basically being 469 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 5: I don't know a human that said, sometimes feel alone 470 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 5: can be either helpful and be even. 471 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 4: Restorative at times. 472 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 5: I know that sounds a little counterintuitive, but here's what 473 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 5: I mean by that. The difference between alone and lonely 474 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 5: is alone is just the state of being alone. I'm 475 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 5: alone in my apartment, safe for my tiny barkie, but 476 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 5: I don't feel lonely because I'm connecting with you. Because 477 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 5: loneliness is when you're dissatisfied with the state of being alone. 478 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 5: And so I think that distinction is helpful because there's 479 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 5: plenty of times I feel alone but not lonely. 480 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 4: But there's also times where I'm around other. 481 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 5: People and I feel lonely, right like people who I 482 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 5: don't really connect with, or I feel like maybe an 483 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 5: outsider in some way, And so I think it helps 484 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 5: give us more. 485 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 4: Language about what we actually need in those moments. 486 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 5: But the problem with loneliness is that we get stuck 487 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 5: in a spiral and sometimes it is hard to get 488 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 5: out of that. We see other things as threats, Like 489 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 5: when you do feel lonely and you see that couple 490 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 5: holding hands walking down the stair, you're like cursing up 491 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 5: a storm in your head, like there's always all these 492 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 5: couples for in another day that might not cost your 493 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 5: mind at all. Right, So I think that helps just 494 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 5: destigmatize what it means to be lonely. If this is 495 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 5: such an epidemic, I think it gives us the tools 496 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,959 Speaker 5: to say, oh, I noticed something is changing. 497 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 4: I'm feeling lonely. I should make plans for this weekend 498 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 4: and I look forward to I should text her friend. 499 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 5: I should just call this friend. I should check on 500 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 5: in my mom. You know, I've friend who's going through 501 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 5: a hard time. Maybe I can like make them cookies 502 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 5: or something. And then, you know, all these things that 503 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 5: how can even happen in a state of being alone 504 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 5: can help feed that sense of connection. So you can 505 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 5: nurture that sense of connection even if you're on your 506 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 5: own that. 507 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 2: Day, I'm going to share a story my whole job 508 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: in Ethos is really around connection. A few months ago, 509 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 2: I started with a new therapist because my therapist who 510 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 2: I love retired. We were just a few sessions in, 511 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 2: so she's starting to get to know me. And I 512 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: was dating this guy and I was like, do I 513 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 2: break up with him? 514 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 3: Do I not? And she said, well, what's the fear. 515 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 2: I closed my eyes and I like put my hand 516 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 2: on my heart, and I said, it's loneliness. I think 517 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 2: I have a core fear of loneliness because when I 518 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: think about the saddest moments of my life, they are 519 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 2: when I was lonely. And she goes, well, that's so 520 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 2: interesting because you've built a whole career around connection. And 521 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 2: I realized that we're all sort of like chasing whatever. 522 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 2: That core wound is mine was loneliness, and I've really 523 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 2: worked on it, and I think there are ways that 524 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 2: you can be alone and not feel lonely. But it's 525 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 2: about meeting your emotional needs, yes, and no one else 526 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 2: is going to meet them for you. If you're in 527 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 2: a relationship, it's a band aid to that exactly. 528 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, as I was writing this book, I mentioned I 529 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 5: got into a serious relationship and it was really interesting 530 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 5: too in the process of writing the book, having that 531 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 5: happened because I was like, oh, yeah, I'm still anxious. 532 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 5: I'm just anxious about different things now. Like you know, 533 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 5: as supportive and as wonderful as my partner is, he 534 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 5: can't process my emotions for me, and I can't process 535 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 5: his emotions. 536 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 4: And I think understanding the. 537 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 5: Tools that we have to regulate not to necessarily be 538 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 5: happy all the time, because that's not the goal and 539 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 5: not really possis the belever to understand how to ride 540 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 5: the waves this real emotional maturity and safety. Then that 541 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 5: helps you make better decisions about should I stay with 542 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 5: this person, should I, should I continue dating. 543 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 4: Them, or should we part ways? 544 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 5: Because when you're acting out of fear, you're not acting 545 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 5: from a place always that is from a place of reality, 546 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 5: not always. 547 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 3: I think that you're acting out of need instead of want. 548 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, Yeah. 549 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 2: I think this idea is so interesting that you can 550 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 2: be in a relationship and still not be attending to 551 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 2: some of your core needs. For anyone who is in 552 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 2: a relationship, how can they embrace some of the principles 553 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 2: of the party of one in their life? 554 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 4: Absolutely? 555 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, So I would say making sure that you it's 556 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 5: not even just alone time. I do advocate for that. 557 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 5: I think making sure you have hobbies that you like 558 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,479 Speaker 5: that are just for you. You don't have to do 559 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 5: every single free activity with your partner, and kind of 560 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 5: romantic those things that feel good that are just for you. 561 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 4: I love those walks because. 562 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 5: It's very a time where I can be really internal, 563 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 5: connect with nature. 564 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 4: I get to walk as faster as slow as I want. 565 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 5: Right, So I would say, find the activities that feel 566 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 5: really special to you and make you feel like yourself 567 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 5: and hold on to those. 568 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 4: Also, just like. 569 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 5: Learning to tolerate your own emotions, thinking about how you 570 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 5: can self soothe, and then also come to a partner 571 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 5: and be like, hey, I went through this hard time, 572 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 5: thinking through this through like here's how what I need 573 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 5: your support. And then I would say the thing that 574 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 5: will be additive, and it's definitely been additive in my 575 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 5: relationship is to practice what I preach is bring in 576 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 5: my single friends into my life where I'm making sure 577 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 5: I'm making time for just them, that my partner isn't 578 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 5: always tagging along. Having different types of events. Also, we 579 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 5: love hosting, so I hosted a book swap the other 580 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 5: week where that was the whole point where just everyone 581 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 5: brought books and we just had we made dinner and 582 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 5: different groups got to meet each other. And so we 583 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 5: really like being a center of commune for a lot 584 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 5: of people in our life. And then yeah, like making 585 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 5: sure we watch your friend's dog when they go to town. 586 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 5: So we're making sure that there's a lot of community 587 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 5: care in our. 588 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 4: Life as well. 589 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: So my final question is what advice do you have 590 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 2: for someone listening who's still holding out for a partner. 591 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, totally that was me. 592 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 5: You know, I would say pursue that part of your 593 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 5: life in what is known as harmonious passion. I was 594 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 5: stuck in what's called obsessive passion, where you are living 595 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 5: or dying by the outcome of something and it's almost 596 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 5: a compulsion to participate in it, so to swipe all 597 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 5: the time, to go on as many days as you 598 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 5: can to think about what's the new way I should 599 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 5: write my profile. And harmonious passion is really thinking about 600 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 5: not letting the outcome control your own happiness, to kind 601 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 5: of be less attached to the results of it. 602 00:29:58,200 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 4: But if you were attached. 603 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,959 Speaker 5: To the outcome of every single date, it is miserable 604 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 5: because I've loved it. So if you can approach your 605 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 5: life with a harmonious passion. So it's a lot of 606 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 5: things in my book, which is making sure you have 607 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 5: a full life and you have hobbies you like, that 608 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 5: you're excited about the space you live in, that you 609 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 5: do things that you don't wait for them for a partner, 610 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 5: and then that makes going on dates or maybe just 611 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 5: waiting for someone not waiting, but like you know, maybe 612 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 5: meeting someone out in the wild, feel less like everything 613 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 5: depends on this one person. Because I think for me, 614 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 5: what was super helpful was thinking, Okay, my life could 615 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 5: go two main directions, right, I could be mostly single 616 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 5: for the rest of my life, or I could meet 617 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,719 Speaker 5: a partner. I just don't know when, and I have 618 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 5: to make sure both outcomes are great. 619 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: I think that is beautiful and spot on. Thank you 620 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 2: so much for joining us, Megan. 621 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 4: Oh, thanks for having me appreciate it. 622 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 2: Megan Kane is the author of Party of One, Be 623 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 2: your Own Best Life Partner. She's the supervising editor and 624 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 2: founder of NPR's life Kit. 625 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: That's It. For Today's Show Tomorrow, relationship guru Jillian Tareki 626 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: is here to talk all about her best selling book, 627 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: It Begins with You, Nine hard truths about love that 628 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: will change your life. Join the conversation using hashtag the 629 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: bright Side and connect with us on social media at 630 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine on Instagram and at the bright Side Pod 631 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: on TikTok oh, and feel free to tag us at 632 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: Simone Boyce and at Danielle Robe. 633 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 2: Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app, 634 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 635 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.