1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to Ruthie's Table four, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: Adamized Studios. 3 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 2: I'm often asked if it's intimidating cooking for celebrities who 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 2: come to the River Cafe. My response is that the 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 2: guests who really worry me are other chefs. It's a 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 2: bit like that today, as I'm about to interview the 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: interviewer mary Ella Frostrop, especially since I was watched the 8 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 2: subject for the Guardian's Lunch with mary Ella, Mariella wrote, 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 2: despite such eloquence that Ruthie is a disaster of an interview. 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: My questions get longer as her answers get shorter and 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 2: inevitably end with a question for me. She's all, don't 12 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 2: you think? And do you find? And have you noticed? 13 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 2: But I'm reminding myself that I'm not here with Marielle 14 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 2: the journalist, but Mariella, my good friend. When Mariella books 15 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 2: a table in the River Cafe, it's most often for two, 16 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 2: usually with her husband, human rights lawyer Jason mccute. Watching 17 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: her is watching someone who's diverted only by what she 18 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: is eating and drinking, as she's entirely focused to the 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 2: person she's with, sitting close, talking, smiling, laughing and listening. 20 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 2: Her daughter Molly, who's working here as a bar back, 21 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 2: told me about growing up with her mother, cooking together, 22 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 2: eating together, traveling together to Norway, to Greece, all over 23 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 2: the world. Now, Mary Elle and I will do the same. Intimidated, 24 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 2: why would I be? Don't you think? Do you find? 25 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: Do you notice? 26 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 3: Oh, Ruthie, that's the best introduction I've ever had, ever, 27 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 3: ever in my entire life. Don't you think? How would 28 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 3: you like to be described? Ruth I'm sorry I said that, 29 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 3: but it is true. 30 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 2: That's true, said, it is really sweeter, he said, you 31 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 2: just kept turning the questions back coming. So today I'm 32 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: just going to listen to you and not tell you, 33 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: don't you think? But before we do, first of all, 34 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 2: I'm so happy you're here. I love having Molly here. 35 00:01:58,360 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 2: She's just fantastic. 36 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 3: I think she feels like she's at a West End 37 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 3: show every night of her life because. 38 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 4: She's a bar back. So she's behind the candy. 39 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 2: Who did the cooking? When you were in your house, well. 40 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 5: In our house, it's very it was very fifty to fifty. 41 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: Do you have Sunday lunches? Was the one meal that 42 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 2: you would have. 43 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 5: That would be we would have Sunday lunches, and I'd 44 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 5: say the most important thing of our Sunday lunch was 45 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 5: probably the Yorchhire puddings. My dad was obsessed with them. 46 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 5: He'd have like fifty. 47 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: At least your mom grew up in Norway. Do you 48 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: have a connection food connection to Norway? 49 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 5: So we go to Norway sometimes on holiday because I mean, 50 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 5: it's so beautiful and obviously, like mum likes the fact 51 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 5: that we all get to see we sort of web. 52 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: We're from and stuff. 53 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 5: But I wouldn't really say that that was a sort 54 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 5: of dish. But that's this sort of cheese that Mum's 55 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 5: obsessed with, but none of us. 56 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 4: Like so much. 57 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's something it's like and it's a very brown color, 58 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 5: and it's very smelly and sweet and weird. 59 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: It's not for me. 60 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 3: I can't understand none of my family of conversion to 61 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 3: all with them. I think it's probably heavily processed and 62 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 3: not necessarily good for you. But it is a taste 63 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 3: of childhood. It's called ya toast and it's a goats cheese. 64 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 3: But it's I'm going to make it sound disgusting. It 65 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 3: looks sort of caramel color. 66 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: It's a caramel. 67 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 3: Broone cheese. Because the thing about Norwegian is that it's 68 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 3: very literal. You know, if you pass a lake and 69 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 3: it's got brown water, it'll be called Brune Lake. You know, 70 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 3: if you pass a house and it's the first one 71 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 3: in the road, it'll be called Who's one, And so 72 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 3: Brune cheese cheese called okay. 73 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: This gives us a chance to start at the beginning, 74 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 2: at the very beginning, Norway. You were born now. 75 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 3: Where born in Oslo in nineteen sixty two, where my 76 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 3: dad had moved back. He and my mother met at Edinburgh. 77 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 3: She was a very young art student. She was sixteen 78 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 3: when they first met. She started Dark College two years early. 79 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 3: She was an incredible talent, but this was the end 80 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 3: of the nineteen fifties. He was studying English at Edinburgh University, 81 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 3: as a lot of Scandinavians so they still do. But 82 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 3: a lot of Norwegians particularly go to Edinburgh. So they 83 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 3: met there and when she was eighteen she gave up 84 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 3: Art college and went back with him to Norway, where 85 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 3: I was born, and then my brother and then my 86 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 3: sister in fairly quick succession. 87 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 2: Do you remember the food that you ate when you 88 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: were in Norway. What age did you live? 89 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 4: Six? 90 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 2: Oh, so you might not remember. 91 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know, there's a really weird thing I 92 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 3: think that happens. I mean, firstly, my main food memory 93 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 3: of Norway is actually because at that time, in the 94 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 3: nineteen sixties, they really didn't have many ingredients at all. 95 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 3: You know, there wasn't this sort of globalization of food, 96 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 3: and you know, you'd get strawberries, but only in midsummer. 97 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 3: There was a lot of pickling fish and vegetables, salt cord, 98 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 3: which I didn't like at all, but I do remember, 99 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 3: and I still love it. There's an arctic charred Arctic 100 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 3: chard that they did. That's just I mean, I think, 101 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 3: one of the most delicious pieces of fish or fishes 102 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 3: in the world. But because of that, I think most 103 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 3: I do remember things like cheese. We would always have 104 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 3: cheese at breakfast. And strawberry jam wasn't like strawberry jam 105 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: that you get here in jars and things. It would 106 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 3: be fresh made strawberry jam. They'd make it and then 107 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 3: it would last until the next summer, and so you 108 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 3: would have a saucer full of it and you would 109 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 3: just spoon it onto your cheese, on your crackers, or 110 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 3: on your rye bread. 111 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 4: And I remember things like that. 112 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 3: But the thing I remember most was I think it 113 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 3: was difficult times, and I think it was difficult with 114 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 3: my parents, and they weren't very happy in Norway, very young, 115 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 3: and my mom had sort of given up all of 116 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 3: her artistic expression to go there, and suddenly she had 117 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 3: three children. And it was the nineteen fifties and Norway 118 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 3: was very very conservative then, and my father used to 119 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 3: travel a lot because heat of his work. He was 120 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 3: a journalist. And he came back from Tanzania, a trip 121 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 3: to Tanzania, and he arrived back and this will show 122 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 3: you how long ago it was, with a box full 123 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 3: of fruit. It had things we'd never seen before. It 124 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 3: had mangoes and these extraordinary melons and then breadfruit and 125 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: just all of these things, and it was like a miracle. 126 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 3: It was like sunshine had just it was like all 127 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 3: the windows had opened and sunshine just blazed into our apartment. 128 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 3: And I'll never forget it, you know. It was a 129 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 3: really really strong and striking memory from a period of 130 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 3: time where I don't have. 131 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 4: That many memories. 132 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 3: But what I was going to say about sense memory 133 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 3: to do with food is I don't remember much about 134 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 3: the food there, but when I go back, I'm like 135 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 3: the you know, the woman in the tin drum in 136 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 3: the film, I'm like her, the one who can't stop 137 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 3: eating fish. I'm sat there with jars of herrings. I 138 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 3: can't get enough sourcial. You know, I can't pickle everything, 139 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 3: pickled gerkins, everything. 140 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 2: And did your father miss it? Do you think did 141 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 2: you have any of it in Ireland? 142 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 3: Or oh, we used to get suits, We would get 143 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 3: pickled fish and jars because you couldn't get that in Ireland. 144 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 3: Then I'm not sure that he missed it. He was 145 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 3: never much of a food man, my father. He was 146 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 3: more of a drink man, okay, so his interest in 147 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 3: food was sort of minimal. 148 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: Can you remember sitting down at nels with them? And 149 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 2: as a child, and was for dinners and lunches. 150 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 3: It was the nineteen seventies, really, and I don't think 151 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 3: we did a lot of sitting down for meals, And 152 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 3: also because it was always complicated, they split up when 153 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 3: I was eight, so I think those sort of family 154 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 3: moments were very few and far between, which is probably 155 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 3: why Jason and I have been so kind of committed 156 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 3: to creating them to appoint where my children are like. 157 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 4: Oh no, not Sunday lunch please. 158 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 2: But as you grew up in Ireland, so what was 159 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: it like growing up? You were quite poor? You said 160 00:07:58,520 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 2: that you had very little money. 161 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, and so food. 162 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 3: You know, in terms of, you know, defining childhood food memories, 163 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 3: they tend to be not very. 164 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 4: Not very warm and cozy ones. 165 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 3: I mean the awful, awful memory ones when we really 166 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 3: had run out of food. And my brother, who was 167 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 3: always the one who tried to beat emmolient, he is 168 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 3: still the kindest man you'll meet, and he was trying 169 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 3: to make light of the fact that there literally was 170 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 3: nothing in the cupboard, and he was like, look, look 171 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 3: I've got spaghetti and I've got golden syrup. 172 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 4: It'll be delicious. 173 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 2: So you wouldn't have he wasn't going to have the 174 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: golden syrup. After the spaghetti he made it for us 175 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 2: with the golden syrup. 176 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 3: Was one of the most disgusting combinations I've ever come across. 177 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 3: Did you say that at the time, No, No, we 178 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 3: grained him and yeah, this is good lovely sugar, sugar 179 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: and starch I can have. 180 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: It's like rice pudding. I suppose how long did you 181 00:08:58,760 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 2: live in Ireland. 182 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 4: For till I was sixteen? 183 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: So your father died? 184 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 3: He died when I was fifteen, he was forty six. 185 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 3: He had a heart attack for years seventy eight, and 186 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 3: then I moved to London in seventy nine. 187 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 2: So when you came to after the tragedy of your 188 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 2: father's death, is that when you moved from Ireland right 189 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: after that? The whole all three of you and your mom? 190 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 4: No, no me? 191 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 2: What by yourself? Yeah? How old were you? 192 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 3: Well, I'd already left home. I left home when I 193 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 3: was fifteen. I lived with my mom for quite a while, 194 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 3: but my stepfather and I didn't get on and he 195 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 3: was not nice, okay, And so then I went to 196 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 3: live with my father, but that was very difficult because 197 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 3: he was by then a sort of fully fledged alcoholic, 198 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 3: and when my stepmother left him with the two children 199 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,839 Speaker 3: that they'd had, and I ended up living with him 200 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 3: on my own and trying to go to school and 201 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 3: kind of manage what was really a fast deteriorating situation. 202 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 3: And he and I were living in some rented house 203 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 3: in the far reaches of Dublin, and i'd get home 204 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 3: from school and there would just be stuff piled in 205 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 3: the in the kitchen and everything, and so I decided 206 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 3: I had to leave. But going back to my mother's 207 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 3: wasn't really an option. So a very nice pair of 208 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 3: lesbian sisters, not a couple, but they said I could 209 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 3: rent a room from them. I'd met them working in 210 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 3: a restaurant in Dublin called the Blackboard where I used 211 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 3: to work at weekends. 212 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 2: And there as. 213 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 3: A waitress, yeah, and or a waiter as we say now, 214 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 3: And that was for too, A lovely gay couple called 215 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 3: Peter and Melvin, who really looked after me very well, 216 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 3: because I mean, what kind of a state I must 217 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,599 Speaker 3: have been in? No idea, but apparently I was a 218 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 3: very good waitress, I can imagine. 219 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:52,839 Speaker 4: I loved it. It was my favorite jodea. 220 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: What did you love about it? 221 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 3: I loved the interaction, and I loved that it made 222 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 3: me feel quite efficient, and I loved the whole I 223 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 3: think the theater Robert actually really drama. Yeah, And I 224 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 3: just used to love get But I think maybe I 225 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 3: also just loved getting to work because it was it was. 226 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 2: Spike, you were still going to school but working. 227 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 3: When I first started working there, and then I worked 228 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 3: there full time for about four months, and then a 229 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 3: friend of mine gave me a job in his recording 230 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 3: studio and so I did that until I left for London. 231 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 3: In Dublin, yeah, that's when I met, you know, all 232 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,719 Speaker 3: of the people that we have in common. I recorded 233 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 3: U two's first demo tapes when I was, yeah, fifteen 234 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 3: and he was seventeen. 235 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 4: He hates it when I remind him that he's older. 236 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 3: But yeah, that was all when I was working at 237 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 3: Keystone Studios. But after my father died, Dublin started feeling 238 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 3: I don't know. I think my father got off at 239 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 3: a job at the Sunday Times, probably about four years 240 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 3: before he died, and I think in my head that 241 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 3: lodged as that would have been the moment that he 242 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 3: could have changed his life. That was the pivotal moment 243 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 3: where things could have changed for the better, and he 244 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:08,839 Speaker 3: didn't take the job. And I think he didn't take 245 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 3: the job because he was afraid and because he was 246 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 3: an alcoholic, and so I think for me that always 247 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 3: represented this sort of golden light that you could you 248 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 3: could fly towards. And so after he died, I became 249 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 3: quite resolute about getting out, So I took the ferry 250 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 3: from dune Leary with my friend. 251 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: Oh you had another friend. 252 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 4: She didn't know. She just had an address for us. 253 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 3: There was a she had some Irish friends who were 254 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 3: living in a squat or friends of friends who were 255 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 3: living in a squat in Stoneleigh Street in West London, 256 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 3: actually not very far from here, off Latimer Road. And 257 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 3: we arrived there on a bright summer sunny morning and 258 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 3: were greeted at the door by just this crowd of 259 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 3: Irish men mostly, And I was like, married, what was 260 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 3: the point in coming all the way here if we're 261 00:12:58,559 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 3: just going to live with the whole house full of 262 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 3: Irish people. But they were incredible to us and made 263 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 3: they were so hospitable. Sixteen sixteen, she's eighteen, and they 264 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 3: gave us a room that there was already two of 265 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 3: them living in, but we were allowed to share it. 266 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 4: I mean, there were. 267 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 3: Amazing days, you know, I think it was It was 268 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 3: a really great time to be young. You know, there 269 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 3: was huge adversity, but at the same time life just 270 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 3: felt full of possibility and you could afford to rent 271 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 3: places for cheap. You know. We were only in the 272 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 3: squad for about three months, and then I got a 273 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 3: job at Blushes on the King's Road. I don't know 274 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 3: if it's still There was a wine bar and it 275 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 3: used to be so amazing on a Saturday. Then you 276 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 3: know Bob Geldof and Paula because they live right around 277 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 3: the corner from and they used to arrive on a 278 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 3: Saturday morning at about eleven o'clock at the tube station 279 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 3: on the King's Road and then they would promenade up 280 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 3: the King's Road and they would be followed by this 281 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 3: sort of retinue of It was like a medieval you know. 282 00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 3: It was like Henry the Eighth that arrived and all 283 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 3: these people would following along in their wake. And again 284 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 3: it was like theater watching, you know, and it was 285 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 3: punk and it was just incredible and exciting. 286 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 2: Do you remember what you ate at the time? Would 287 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: you would you go to restaurants or would you cook 288 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 2: at home? Or would you I'd cook at home. 289 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 4: I'd cook at home. 290 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 3: Food wasn't great in London then, you know, it wasn't 291 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 3: and I didn't really care so much. I mean, I 292 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 3: was so obsessed with just survival and getting on, survival 293 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 3: and getting on. I mean, it was the nineteen seventies, 294 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 3: it was quite a bit of sort of beef Burgignon 295 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 3: and you know, black Forest ghetto, nothing to write home about. 296 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 3: Everyone was eating spaghetti bolonnaise because that was very exotic 297 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 3: and Italian, but not. 298 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 4: Baudelais Nouver. That was always quite exciting. 299 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember that through the eighties, but not so 300 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 3: much the food really. 301 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're you're a sixteen year old in London, 302 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: You're working in blushes, you're living in the Irish house, 303 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: You're father has just died, and and you have a vision. 304 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: Did you know what you did? You know you wanted 305 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 2: to be the writer or the journalist or did you 306 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: did you go back to school? So you left school 307 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: at fifteen? 308 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, I did my you know, the equivalent of 309 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 3: GCSEs And then yeah, it just wasn't possible. And for 310 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 3: a while I thought I'll go back to school, and 311 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 3: then I just realized that that wasn't going to happen. 312 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 3: And then I didn't really have a dream, you know, 313 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 3: because it was very much about survival really, and it 314 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 3: was day to day and I think I was just 315 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 3: very lucky, you know, I had lots. 316 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: I think you probably must have been fantastic kid. Just 317 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: to have that courage and to you know that. 318 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 3: They had courage when you're that age, don't you. I 319 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 3: think maybe because you don't know you know, now I 320 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 3: think I'm much less brave than I was when I 321 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 3: was sixteen years old or eighteen years old, because now 322 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 3: you have the benefit of or not of having, mean 323 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 3: what the world can do risk for risk and the 324 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 3: risk and the jeopardy, whereas then it's just about you know, possibility, 325 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 3: isn't it. And I felt possibility in London, you know 326 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 3: that energized me and just kept me going, you know, 327 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 3: I mean it was it wasn't of course, it wasn't easy, 328 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 3: you know. And I missed my dad so badly, you know, 329 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 3: because I think as a daughter, when you lose your 330 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 3: father at that age, you kind of deify them, and 331 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 3: so I'd elevated him to this impossible. 332 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 4: Kind of Olympian height. 333 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 3: And so I spent an awful lot of my late 334 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 3: teens in early twenties, you know, finding really broken men 335 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 3: and trying to fix them because I felt guilty that 336 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 3: I hadn't fixed my dad. And I really think it 337 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 3: took me till my thirties really to escape from the 338 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 3: kind of tyranny of his perfection, which you know and 339 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 3: realize who he was, you know, which doesn't make me 340 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 3: love him any less, but it certainly helped to create 341 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 3: a more functional life for myself. 342 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 2: And did you drink? It was the fact that he 343 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 2: died of sort of alcohol? 344 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 4: No, I think I drank, but I don't think. 345 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 3: I mean, I've never I'm not a very addictive apart 346 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 3: from cigarettes, which I was hopelessly addicted to for sort 347 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 3: of all of my twenties and early thirties, which is 348 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 3: mad because my father died of a heart attack and 349 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 3: was chainsmoker. But drink, I mean, you know, it was 350 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 3: the nineteen eighties. I was in the music business. I 351 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 3: had a lot of fun then, Yes, because the next 352 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 3: thing I did was get a job at a record 353 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 3: company because of the studio that I'd worked in in Ireland. 354 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 3: You know, it was always people who you'd met who 355 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 3: then would introduce you to somebody else, and you know, 356 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 3: sometimes you'd get a little chink of an opportunity and 357 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 3: you would grab that and then you would and the 358 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 3: journalism and the television only happened again just by accident, 359 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 3: you know, I worked for this record company, worked with 360 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 3: Bob Geldof. I worked on band aid and live Aid, 361 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 3: and he stole my desk to sort out band Aid 362 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 3: from and you know, I was there on the day 363 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 3: when we all went to that studio in West London 364 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 3: and all of those people. It was a kind of amazing, 365 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 3: magical time. Then I set up my own little PR company. 366 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 3: But at the same time they were looking for a 367 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 3: TV presenter for a music program that Channel four were making, 368 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 3: and it was going to be all world music. And 369 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 3: that was what was really exciting about it to me 370 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 3: because it was my father always used to bring back 371 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 3: amazing records from Africa, Miriam mckeeba and just incredible music, 372 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 3: and so I was really excited to get involved in it, 373 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 3: and they gave me the job. 374 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 4: I was appalling. 375 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 3: I mean, someone sent me like a YouTube clip the 376 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 3: other day, you know how everything lives on. 377 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 4: YouTube of me presenting. 378 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was called Big World and I spoke in 379 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 3: a monotone like that, and I was clear, just shit scared, 380 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 3: really self to do that. But but so I did 381 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 3: that recovery years and then it. 382 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 2: Just did you have a domestic life as well? Did 383 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 2: you live with anybody and have to think about a 384 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 2: kitchen or food or bringing shopping home or did you 385 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 2: just basically food was smoked and. 386 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 4: Smoked and drag. 387 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 3: But I did get married when I was eighteen to 388 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 3: another lost soul who's a wonderful and old friend of 389 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 3: mine now called Richard Jobson, who was the lead singer 390 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 3: in this punk band called the Skids. 391 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 2: Yeah Skids, great. 392 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, into the valley working for the Yankee dollar, come on. 393 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 2: Anywhere. 394 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 3: But Richard was a really interesting and unusual character. He 395 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 3: was another lost kid. He's left home at sixteen. He had, 396 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 3: you know, huge intellectual aspirations, many of which he went 397 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 3: on to realize a huge determination. And I think we 398 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 3: sort of fell together out of loneliness and we tried, 399 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 3: you know, we gave it our best shot for two kids, 400 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 3: and we stayed together till I was twenty one. 401 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 2: Wow, so young. 402 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 3: So we had a domestic life then and very rudimentary. 403 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 3: I used to make things like grilled pork chops with 404 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 3: mustard on them, and a lot of potatoes, spaghetti, bolinnaise. 405 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 2: Cookbooks do you remember using. 406 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 3: I had the Constant Spry cookbook that my mum had 407 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 3: given me because that was sort of her bible. So 408 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 3: she did yeah, she used to bake more than cook. 409 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 3: I mean, when I think about food that my mum made, 410 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 3: she used to make incredible gingerbread. She did make a 411 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 3: mean spaghetti. Bolonnaise she used to make. She made really 412 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 3: good normal food. You know, she'd make a great shepherds. 413 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 2: Part did she come from. She came from an English family. 414 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 3: She's half Scottish, half English Scottish. She was Scottish really, 415 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 3: but she learned, you know, we used to. 416 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 4: She used to. 417 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 3: She taught me how to make love scass, which is 418 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 3: a it's a very rudimentary Norwegian stew, which is beef 419 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 3: and potatoes but cubed very small and cooked in their 420 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 3: own broth for quite a long period of time. And 421 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 3: she used to make these things called milkering, which are 422 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 3: that's sort of yogurts basically that Norwegians used to make. 423 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 3: And it was very weird because both she and my 424 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 3: stepmother used to make these yogurts. Once I left her 425 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 3: house and went went to live with my dad, every 426 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: cupboard you opened would have yogurt. You know. 427 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 2: Breeding was your father's second wife. 428 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 4: She wasn't. 429 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 3: They weren't married, but I mean, no, she was Irish, 430 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 3: but I think had an influence. 431 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 4: No, they all wanted to impress them. 432 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 3: He had this thing, you know, which clearly worked for 433 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 3: every woman in his life. And I don't think my 434 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 3: mum and my stepmother were the only ones either. 435 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 4: So yeah, he has a thing of. 436 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 2: Cooking for you know, seduction as well, something that people 437 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 2: can remember. She can you remember meal where you wanted 438 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 2: to impress somebody and you cooked. 439 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 4: I've never cooked when I wanted to impress. 440 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 2: Well, you're joined by Judy Dad, she said the same thing. 441 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 2: He might be came down and he said something to 442 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 2: her like you know. She said, this agent is coming, 443 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 2: so I'm going to make him the best omelet. She 444 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 2: tried to figure out how to make the best omelet 445 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 2: and he ate it and she was looking and he said, 446 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 2: I think you should stick to acting or something like that. 447 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: Right now, I'm going to ask you your shares of 448 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 2: all the recipes that we have in all our books. 449 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 2: You said that you wanted to make spaghetti bongolay, So 450 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 2: would you like to read the recipe for spaghetti vongolai. 451 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 3: I will read the recipe for you. Four tablespoons of 452 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 3: extra virgin olive oil, four clothes of garlic finally chopped, 453 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 3: three dried red chilies crumbled, three kilos of small clams, 454 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 3: a bunch of flat leaf parsley finally chopped, and then 455 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,719 Speaker 3: brackets divided. Talk about organization, sea salt and freshly ground 456 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 3: black pepper. Four hundred grams of spaghetti, one lemon quartered 457 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 3: fairly precise. I think only listeners will realize that serves four. 458 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 3: You heat the oil in a large frying pan over 459 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 3: a medium heat, Add the garlic, and fry over a 460 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 3: medium heat for one minute until just beginning to brown. 461 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 4: That's where I go wrong. Often did you just. 462 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 2: Have bigger pieces of garlic and then you can take 463 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 2: them out or just cook it slowly? Yeah? 464 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 3: Maybe add the crumbled chilies, clams, and two tablespoons of water. 465 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 3: Cover and fry over a high heat for about five 466 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 3: minutes until all the clams open, discarding any that don't. 467 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 3: Add half the parsley to the clams. Season with salt 468 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 3: and pepper. Drain the spaghetti and add to the clams. 469 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 3: Serve with the remaining parsley and the lemon quarters. 470 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 2: And invade it with Carlota. Hi, I'm carloying with shap 471 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 2: at the River Cafe. 472 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 3: So I'm going to start sweating off the garlic with 473 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 3: Passley sports, so it's sweating rather than frying. I think 474 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 3: that's the important thing exactly. 475 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. Now a bit of chili, now, flick of chili. 476 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 3: Dried chili, dry chili, yes, always dried chili. So that's 477 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 3: starting to cry off. 478 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 4: And at this stage I'm going to add the clams. 479 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 3: You so you've scrubbed that, you've done all the hard 480 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 3: work with them, because that is the boring thing, isn't it? 481 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 3: And these clams are from where because the tastiest clams 482 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 3: I think comes from the Bay of Naples, and I 483 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 3: think it's far. 484 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 4: It's a bit rubby, are they sorry? 485 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 2: So this. 486 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 3: This point we just want to get a little bit 487 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 3: more heaty to the plan and then I'm going to 488 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 3: so usually here we use. 489 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,120 Speaker 4: Savee to put the bongola in. 490 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 3: Nice to sort of drink it and deleting the dish 491 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 3: as well. It's multi purpose. You can overcook the clams 492 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 3: as well, can't you. So what's too long? 493 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 4: You want to catch them just as they're opening up? 494 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 3: And will they if you stop the heat when they're 495 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 3: opening up? Will they keep opening up the way you 496 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 3: want them to? 497 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,239 Speaker 4: So they say they're starting to oisten up. 498 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 2: So I'm going to finish and the start you wore 499 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: to the wine and the oils are going to come 500 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 2: together and sticking the saws. 501 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 3: So listening, I bet you can. She's got a brilliant 502 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 3: hand tipping technique. 503 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 2: You need to finish it with parsley freshness. 504 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 4: So there we have it. Oh my god, the most 505 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 4: spectacular thing. And now I feel confident my love it. 506 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 4: Thank you very much. 507 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 2: Related well, first of all, why did you choose us? 508 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 3: It's entirely my favorite dish, mussels and clams. And there 509 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 3: was a period in my childhood when we lived on 510 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 3: the west coast of Ireland in Connemara, and it was 511 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 3: on one of my mother's kind of escapes from realities, 512 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 3: which used to happen quite often, and we went to 513 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 3: live there for six months and we were very poor, 514 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 3: and for about a three month period we just ate 515 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 3: potatoes that we could dig up and mussels which we 516 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 3: picked from the rocks. And you'd think that actually that 517 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 3: would have kind of knocked any desire to eat them 518 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 3: ever again out of me. But I think there was 519 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 3: a sort of four or five year hiatus, maybe a 520 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 3: bit longer. I think probably till I first came to London, 521 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 3: and then I re embraced them. And then I used 522 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 3: to go to Naples with my best friend and we 523 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 3: used to have spaghetti with Cottsen Fassolaris from the Bay 524 00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 3: of Naples, and I mean ever since then. And then 525 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 3: Molly weirdly, my daughter, from when she was a toddler, 526 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 3: her absolute favorite thing was muscles and clams, and it's 527 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 3: quite odd to see a little toddler there kind of 528 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 3: throwing the shells over a children and digging into a 529 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 3: plate of seafood. So I think many influencers have combined 530 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 3: to make it my favorite, but I think it's really 531 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 3: difficult to make because it's so simple. 532 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 2: There's no hiding. 533 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 3: It is there, there's no hiding, and I really loved that. 534 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 3: I love food like that. I don't really like very 535 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 3: complicated food, you know, sort of very French high end. 536 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 4: Never really enjoyed it much much. 537 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 3: Prefer you know, really great fresh ingredients and a simple recipe, 538 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 3: which is probably why I've been found here for the 539 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 3: last you know, I used to see. I first came 540 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 3: to the River Cafe when you first opened virtually in 541 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 3: the nineteen eighties. 542 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, nineteen eighty seven reopened and when we were only 543 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 2: opened for lunch. Do you remember we. 544 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 4: Were only opened for lunch. 545 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 3: I think when I first started coming and used to 546 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 3: have a wine from Antsi of Venice called I obviously 547 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 3: wasn't paying the bills then that was the beginning of 548 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 3: my career. But I used to come with a friend 549 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 3: and we used to have this wine called Where Dreams. 550 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, that label wasn't it. 551 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 3: It was amazing And even then this felt like the 552 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 3: most glamorous place on earth because it felt decadent in 553 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 3: all the best ways. And actually here was one of 554 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 3: the first places, and I know it's on a different 555 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 3: level from the pub on Grafton Street or whatever, it 556 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 3: was one of the first places where I really felt 557 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 3: that sort of bubble of excitement and conversation that you 558 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 3: get on a Friday night in a pub in Dublin 559 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 3: to be passionate about something, and food is something you 560 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 3: can be really passionate about. And I mean with my 561 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 3: I was not a great sort of domestic but actually 562 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 3: to go through a long period where I had a 563 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 3: house in Sussex that I used to rent with this 564 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 3: couple friends of mine, Nicola and Helena. 565 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 4: They're still my friends and we used to cook together. 566 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, and they were some of the happiest years of 567 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 3: my life, you know, cooking together every weekend. And I 568 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 3: actually learned a lot that Nikola was a particularly good 569 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 3: cold cook, and they were very precise, even things like 570 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 3: a I remember teaching me to make a basil omelet. 571 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 3: But it's a bit like the wonga lay. It's only 572 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 3: about the ingredients because it's so yeah yeah, and you 573 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 3: have to you know, and that I think I just 574 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 3: loved the sort of satisfaction that comes from that. 575 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 4: But then when you have kids, Yeah, so what was 576 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 4: that like? Well, I loved cooking. 577 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 2: Going back to marrying Jason. Did he grow up on 578 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 2: a domestic house where meal and like yours or was 579 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 2: it the same? 580 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 4: No, very unlike mine. 581 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 3: His mum did everything and she was in she's a 582 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 3: really good cook. She still is, you know, I mean, 583 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,719 Speaker 3: very English, quite sort of nineteen seventies. She had one 584 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 3: of those trolleys that's hot that keeps things hot, and 585 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,959 Speaker 3: she would wheel it in, sit by the table and 586 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 3: you know, the plate to be in they're warming and 587 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 3: the food lots of sort of castle roles and pop 588 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 3: ghosts and things like that. But she's a really good 589 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 3: cook and it always looks perfect. She's a good baker 590 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 3: as well. And Jason is probably the better cook in 591 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 3: our house. He loves, absolutely loves cooking, and I feel 592 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 3: like I loved it during those years in Sussex, and 593 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 3: I loved the early days of cooking for my kids. 594 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 3: But then something happened when they just make faces about 595 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 3: the food you cooked and never like it, and it 596 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 3: became such a negotiation in the house that I kind 597 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 3: of lost the heart of it. I mean, now I'm back, 598 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 3: but Jason sort of took over in a lot of ways. 599 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: But do you eat really healthy? It's not consciously, it's 600 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 2: like the food that you like. 601 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 3: It's the food that I like. I love fresh things, 602 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 3: I love, you know. One of the things that gives 603 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 3: me huge satisfaction is we've got a garden which during 604 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 3: the spring period of the year is just absolutely wall 605 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 3: to all wild garlic. It can almost be noxious the smell, 606 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 3: and I just love to gather it. And I make 607 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 3: pesto in industrial quantities. 608 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 2: Good. Oh, I have to. And when you go when 609 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 2: you go to Greece, do you cook there? 610 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, we go to Greece a lot. 611 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 3: I get like a craving for I used to go 612 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 3: to Greece from the age of sixteen, and so you know, 613 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 3: Greek islands, you get there, the smell, the pine, the 614 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 3: Greek salad. 615 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 4: Again, it's everything simple. I just love it. I just 616 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 4: love it. 617 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 3: And so actually, you know there, we tend to eat 618 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 3: out quite a lot, but we'll make, you know, a 619 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 3: big lunch with Greek saladin. We'll make some dips and things, 620 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 3: and you know, we might get some. 621 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 4: Fish and grill it. You know, we keep it very simple, but. 622 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 2: You have a lot of friends over it. You do, like, 623 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 2: do you prefer going to people's houses or having them 624 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 2: come to you or do you like them? 625 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 3: I prefer going to people's houses because then I don't 626 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 3: have to clear up. Jason prefers having people over because 627 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 3: I clear up after him and he loves cooking. But no, 628 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 3: we do have people over a lot, and there's nothing there. 629 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 3: I don't think there's anything nicer than a table full 630 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 3: of people and they're all eating and talking. And you know, 631 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 3: I tend to make big stews and things that I 632 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 3: don't have to do a lot of cook Our kitchen 633 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 3: is all open, like yeah, of yours. And when people 634 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 3: talk to me when I'm cooking, I can't cope with it. 635 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 3: I can't concentrate. So I have to make things that 636 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 3: are already and I love slow cook things and osubuko 637 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 3: and things like that. 638 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 2: And yeah, so how do you combine working with cooking? 639 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 2: You know, the chad or how did you bring up children? 640 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 2: And for through your career and you know, I have 641 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 2: a home life. Did you brush from one thing to another? 642 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,959 Speaker 2: Did you have was it hard? Did you just do it? 643 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 2: Do you think? 644 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 3: I think same as every woman just you know, I mean, 645 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 3: it's so much every woman's experience these days, isn't it. 646 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 3: And it's kind of the bit that wasn't factored into 647 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 3: our great desire for you know, equality and independence. So 648 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 3: I think it's really hard. You know, it was less 649 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 3: hard for me because I had, you know, enough money 650 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 3: to have help. But I think it's a really difficult thing. 651 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 3: And I think, you know, for most women, it's a 652 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 3: burden of responsibility that you just you perform it because 653 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 3: you don't have a choice. 654 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 2: You feel a kind of choice, you know, it is 655 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 2: really terry. I think also, as you say, it's economic, 656 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 2: you know, so when people say, oh, you know, there 657 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 2: are all these kids who are growing up on Peter McDonald's. 658 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 2: But the fact is that if you have a night 659 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 2: job and you have a choice, I often think I 660 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 2: like to think that maybe the mother has a choice 661 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 2: of doing homework with her kids or cooking a fresh 662 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 2: meal for them, maybe cut you know, And I think that's. 663 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 3: I think if you've done a pretty hard graph job 664 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 3: that isn't based on your passion or any of the 665 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 3: luxuries that that you know, some of us have. If 666 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 3: you've done a hard graph job all day and then 667 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 3: you get home and you've got hungry, grumpy kids, I 668 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 3: don't think you want to sit down and start creating 669 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,719 Speaker 3: a meal. I mean, for all the sense of you know, 670 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 3: holistic happiness it might offer, I don't think you're in 671 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 3: a place to actually think about or do that. 672 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, you know we saw in lockdown when 673 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 2: kids didn't go for you know, the school, they didn't 674 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 2: have their one meal the day. And I was, you know, 675 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 2: talking to Jamie the other day about you know, the 676 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: goal now is to make lunches so nutritious, because you know, 677 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 2: that's the only meal the kid's going to have. 678 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,919 Speaker 3: But we should have free school meals, I mean universally 679 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 3: across the nation, you know, And one of the first 680 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 3: things we need to do is recognize that there's real 681 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 3: hunger in this country and address it. And the idea 682 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 3: that you know, we can sit around and have our 683 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 3: amazing meals and somewhere else, just down the road, there's 684 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 3: a kid who isn't getting separate. It makes me feel 685 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 3: physically sick, and I just don't understand why we can't 686 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 3: address it, you know. I mean, I spent my whole 687 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 3: childhood worried about things like food, and I know, you know, 688 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 3: I kind of know the smell of poverty, and I'm 689 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 3: frightened to death of it, you know. And I've run 690 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 3: so far in the opposite director, but I'm still, you know, 691 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 3: rubbish at kind of handling it because it's a fear. 692 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 3: It's a deep, deep rooted fear, and we're bringing up, 693 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 3: you know, a whole generation of kids, so experiencing that. 694 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 2: When you're working your column, when you're writing on your campaigns, 695 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 2: on your books. 696 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 4: Do you eat well? 697 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 3: You Since I started my radio show at the times, 698 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 3: I've lost a lot of weight. I mean not a lot, 699 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 3: but I've definitely got thinner, not intentionally, but because it's 700 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,879 Speaker 3: a lunchtime show, and lunch is my favorite meal. Like 701 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 3: I can eat like a horse at lunchtime. 702 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 4: I love it. 703 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 3: I can still sleep at night, you know, because once 704 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 3: your menopausal and postmenopause, sleep can become a bit of 705 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 3: a challenge. And so lunch is my favorite meal. And 706 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 3: four days a week I can't have lunch, and I 707 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 3: just don't eat until after I finished my show, so 708 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 3: I end up having maybe one and a half meals 709 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 3: a day. You know, I have supper, but I have 710 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 3: a breakfast tea to you know, kids high tea suffer. 711 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 3: I always eat about six thirty or seven. I don't 712 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 3: really like breakfast very At weekends, I have breakfast. I 713 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 3: make breakfast for the kids at the weekend. I love 714 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 3: doing that. You know, it makes you feel. There's so 715 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,240 Speaker 3: few moments as a parent, I think where you feel 716 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 3: I've got this, yeah, you know, and making them breakfast 717 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 3: is one of them, you know, whether it's banana pancakes 718 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 3: or scrambled eggs and bacon or whatever avocado on toast. 719 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 3: I mean, it's ridiculous. My children in are seventeen and eighteen, 720 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 3: and they still at the weekends will come in and 721 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 3: kind of go, what's for breakfast? 722 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 2: Mum? Yeah, but that will never stop. 723 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,720 Speaker 4: I hope it doesn't because it makes me feel useful. 724 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 2: I think going home and being fed, and I think, 725 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 2: you know, we all grew up with kind of role models. 726 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 2: I certainly, you know, did, and I see myself sort 727 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 2: of acting. My mother was incredibly child oriented. You know, 728 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,919 Speaker 2: she never blamed a child, never told off a child. 729 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 2: The child was always right, oh my. You know, we 730 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 2: had a lot of way that we kind of grew up. 731 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,879 Speaker 2: But I think for somebody who didn't grow up with 732 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 2: that and then to be the way they are, it's like, 733 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 2: you know, it's so inspiring to me because it's you know, 734 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 2: so that you've come from. Maybe you know, your father's 735 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 2: but you had love. 736 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 4: You know, I had love, you know what. 737 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 3: And I always think about this because you know, they 738 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 3: say that basically we shape our children by the time 739 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 3: they're five or six. And I think I was really 740 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 3: lucky because the one thing that they were really good 741 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 3: at was they made me feel very loved. And once 742 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 3: you have that, it gives you a confidence to step 743 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 3: out into the world and you know, stick your toe 744 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 3: in the water and see what's out there, and I think, 745 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 3: you know, without that, that's when the real damage sets in. 746 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 3: And so all of the other things were pretty survivable. 747 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 3: But I think without that early love and we were definitely, 748 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 3: you know, my mum was in a amazing particularly when 749 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 3: we were little before things got difficult. 750 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 4: But I'm very injured. 751 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 3: I have to ask you one question, which is were 752 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 3: you interested in food even when you were a teenager 753 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 3: and in your twenties or was it your mother in 754 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 3: law that inspired you really with food? 755 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 2: I would say that my mother was here, we go, 756 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 2: see what was it? Don't you think? Don't you find there? 757 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 2: We go? Yeah, the stories that my father was a 758 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,959 Speaker 2: doctor and my mother was a librarian, and I think 759 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 2: they both came they were immigrants, their families were. They 760 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 2: were born in the Lower East Side and then you 761 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 2: know Jewish immigrants who came Ellis Island all that, and 762 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 2: I think that for them the whole thing was education, 763 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 2: whereas there my grandparents were very focused on food. I 764 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 2: think both my mother was trying to get it. She 765 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 2: went back to college when we were like five or 766 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 2: six to be a librarian, and my father was, you know, 767 00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,359 Speaker 2: trying to make it as a doctor. And I think 768 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 2: that we always ate fresh food. We always ate well, 769 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 2: we sat around you know that thing I was sitting 770 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 2: around the table. But probably I romanticize it. Probably the 771 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 2: food we had my sister is much more scathing. But 772 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 2: I sort of I think that the conversation was more 773 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 2: important than than what we ate. 774 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:20,359 Speaker 4: But we ate well. 775 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,839 Speaker 2: We never had dilvered or package. No, no, we didn't 776 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 2: have to get syrup for me. It all opened up 777 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 2: when I did come to Europe, going to Italy and 778 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 2: then living in Paris as we did. That was the 779 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 2: kind of food, you know, inspiration. 780 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 3: But I think there's something about Italian food though as well, 781 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 3: because most of it, maybe you know, some of it's complicated, 782 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 3: but most of it is about fresh ingredients and simplicity, 783 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,320 Speaker 3: and it's very seductive. You know. I became interested in food, 784 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 3: as I said to you, when when I used to 785 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 3: go and stay with with my friend Natalie, you know, 786 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 3: because this was amazing food, Natalie from Naples. It was 787 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 3: performance food. It was just amazingly good food. And you know, 788 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 3: they wouldn't have beans on toast at four o'clock in 789 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 3: the morning, as I said, they would make a pasta. Yeah, 790 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 3: you know, and actually you know, a lot of Italian 791 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 3: men can cook as well, which you know, still find 792 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 3: really impressive. You know, I'm lucky because I married a 793 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:17,839 Speaker 3: man who can cook. But the number of my friends 794 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 3: who sort of look at Jason wistfully and go oh, yesh, 795 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 3: mine could do that exactly. 796 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 2: So we've talked about the work, we've talked about the children, 797 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:31,359 Speaker 2: we've talked about you know, the husband who cooks. Maybe 798 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 2: we should wind up on the comfort food and ask 799 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 2: you if food is is sharing and love and memories. 800 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,320 Speaker 2: Certainly memories. Your memories are about food. 801 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 4: It's about food and memory. 802 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 3: And I also think that our emotional lives are often 803 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 3: channeled through food. So when food isn't good, I mean 804 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,280 Speaker 3: it is a bit like like water for chocolate or whatever. 805 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 3: You know, when when food isn't good, it's because other 806 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 3: things aren't good. And that's why, you know, the bad 807 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 3: meals are as almost defining memories as the good meals, 808 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,720 Speaker 3: you know. And for me sitting down at the table 809 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 3: and having something simple and delicious with my kids sitting 810 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 3: opposite me and my husband sitting at the table, it 811 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 3: does feel in some ways, not to be too saccharin 812 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 3: about it, but like a sort of dream come true, 813 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 3: and and the table is the place where that theater 814 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 3: of it plays out. And I look around and think, gosh, 815 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 3: you know, un lucky I got this. 816 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we are. And do you have a comfort 817 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 2: food that you go to when you that's what you needed? 818 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 3: Well, all the way through my twenties, I used to 819 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 3: go and stay with my best friend Natalie in Maples. 820 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 2: I'm getting I'm getting friend jealous in here. 821 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:51,279 Speaker 3: I've got two best friends. Okay, that's best friends, but 822 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 3: that's really you know. I've known them since I was 823 00:41:53,560 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 3: eighteen years and we used to cook and we used 824 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 3: to cook it at four o'clock in the morning when 825 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 3: we came back from the nightclub. 826 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 4: In Carpery where we used to go. 827 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 3: We used to cook it in the middle of the 828 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 3: afternoon if we got peckish. We used to cook it 829 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 3: if one of us was sobbing, you know. And so 830 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 3: in many ways that still is my sort of go 831 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 3: to comfort food. But the other thing I've learned to 832 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,760 Speaker 3: cook quite recently is this delicious I call it porridge bread. 833 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,799 Speaker 3: It is an Irish recipe and it is very much 834 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 3: porridge bread because it's just made with oats and seeds, 835 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 3: and live yogurt and a spoon of baking powder, and 836 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 3: it's incredibly easy to make, foolproof, no yeast, no flour, 837 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:43,799 Speaker 3: and no flour, and it's so delicious. Bread well, it's 838 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 3: like soda bread. It's like the wheat and bread. It's 839 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 3: very like that, which is also another sort of comfort food. 840 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 3: So you take all these grains and the oats and 841 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,319 Speaker 3: the yogurt and the baking powder, and you just put 842 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,359 Speaker 3: it all in a bowl, mix it all together, put 843 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 3: it into a loaf tin in in baking paper, you know, 844 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,800 Speaker 3: and you have to cook it for about fifty minutes altogether, 845 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 3: called forty minutes one side, and then tip it over. 846 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,880 Speaker 3: It's rock hard on the outside. It's absolutely moist and 847 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,760 Speaker 3: delicious on the inside. And that with a thick layer 848 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:16,240 Speaker 3: of butter. 849 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 2: Okay, I love butter, Yeah, I love butter. I love butter. 850 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 2: Richard Richard's mother used to say that butter was the 851 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 2: best cheese, and she was a Northern Italian. But if 852 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 2: you think about butter like a cheese, then you can 853 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,360 Speaker 2: have that thick piece with a little thin bit of bread, 854 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 2: you know. 855 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you just want the car for the butter, 856 00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 3: isn't it I think that's and that's very irish as well. 857 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. True. And we're going to go right now into 858 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 2: the River Cafe and you're going to meet a friend 859 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 2: and have dinner, aren't you. I am. 860 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 4: I'm so excited. 861 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,959 Speaker 2: So's nice. Who are you having dinner with tonight? Then 862 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,799 Speaker 2: go on, I can allow to ask that question, you can. 863 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 3: It's not my husband, for change, I have a gentleman guest. No, 864 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 3: I'm having dinner with your friend and mine. Danny his 865 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 3: timeh fabulous and he's about to do my podcast Books 866 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 3: to Live By, And I'm so excited to talk to 867 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 3: him because you know he's going to pick his the 868 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 3: five books that have shaped his life in many ways. 869 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,240 Speaker 4: Books, it's the literary companion to this one. 870 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,040 Speaker 2: And food and reading. Yes see, Danny, And. 871 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 3: Thank you Mary, thank you, pleasure, thank you so much 872 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:21,200 Speaker 3: for having me. 873 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 1: The River Cafe Lookbook is now available in bookshops and online. 874 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 1: It has over one hundred recipes, beautifully illustrated with photographs 875 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:38,760 Speaker 1: from the renowned photographer Matthew Donaldson. The book has fifty 876 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 1: delicious and easy to prepare recipes, including a host of 877 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,240 Speaker 1: River Cafe classics that have been specially adapted for new cooks. 878 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 1: The River Cafe lookbook recipes for cooks of all ages. 879 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: Ruthie's Table four is a production of iHeartRadio and Adami Studios. 880 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:05,839 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 881 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,