1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: It was near sunset when the old man looked up 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,479 Speaker 1: from his labors and saw the stranger approaching from the west, 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: And though his eyes were weaker than they once were, 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: he soon saw that the stranger carried himself like a soldier, 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 1: though he bore no weapon that could be seen, and 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: so the old man continued scraping his hides till the 7 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 1: stranger approached close enough to greet him. Hello, grandfather, Oh, 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: please don't let me disturb your labor. I just wanted 9 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: to ask, is this the way to the greenwood path? Hey? 10 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: It is, But what business have you in the woods? 11 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: Not the woods, grandfather, the lands on the other side. 12 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: You see, I'm returned from the war and I seek 13 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,959 Speaker 1: my family's farm. It's been five long years, and I'm 14 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: eager to aid them with the harvest. There's no path 15 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: through the green forest, at least none blazed by the 16 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: likes of you or me game trails. Then, well, so happens. 17 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: I'm a gifted tracker and can make my own way, 18 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: your own way. If there are any land marks, you 19 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: might a lurt me too, well, I'd be most gracious. 20 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: But the old man didn't answer right away. He looked 21 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: out to the woods, and instead motioned back towards his hut, 22 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: where the old woman would have supper ready soon enough. 23 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,559 Speaker 1: Tell you what stay with us tonight, and I'll tell 24 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: you of the forest. What the young soldier lacked in 25 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: caution he made up for in politeness. When he had 26 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: finished his bowl of rabbit stew, he thanked the old 27 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: man and woman a half dozen times. He cleaned the 28 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: bowls and scrubbed the pot. He split more wood for 29 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: the fire, and even produced a bottle of spirits, which 30 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: he shared with the old man. So tell me of 31 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: the forest, grandfather. You'll not find your own way through 32 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: the green forest, not by moonlight and not by day. 33 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: What little of either filters down to the tree tops. 34 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: The animal paths won't help you either. That only winds 35 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: you down into greater depths. There is neither your way, 36 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: you nor my way in the green forest. There is 37 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: only the law of the woods. And there is a leshy. 38 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: I don't think I'll be troubled by some forest dwarf 39 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: tis no dwarf. The less she has always been in 40 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: the old forest. He was there before human tribes roamed in. 41 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: He was there when strange animals still range these parts 42 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 1: and he is no man nor dwarf, but a shaggy 43 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: figure that casts no shadow, that stares straight through the 44 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: forest depths with eyes that burn like green fire. He 45 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: passes gigantic behind the great trees and sneaks meekly behind 46 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: the nearest blade of grass. Like that, he is on you. 47 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: And he who breaks the forest law is broken. Well, 48 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: then tell me the forest law so that I might 49 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 1: avoid him. The forest law is not like man's lot, 50 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: can't be told or written down. A very nature breaks 51 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: it as much as our acts. But you're a trapper, 52 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: how do you avoid the less? She's wrath. I do 53 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: not trap in the woods, but at its border, And 54 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: for that the less she spares me, and asked, but 55 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: one more thing that I worn wanderer, such as yourself. 56 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: The young soldier nodded and smiled, but the old man 57 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: could tell he was only being mannerly. He did not 58 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: believe his tale of the leshy, and would not be 59 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: swayed from his shortcut through the woods. And so the 60 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: next morning he thanked the old man and woman yet 61 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: again and departed into the green forest, no doubt, thinking 62 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: he'd found the makings of a path, or discovered some logic, 63 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: and the dead leaves beneath his feet. The old man 64 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: went back to his traps and snares near the forest edge. 65 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: He flinched when he heard the first startled scream from 66 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: the forest depths, then the howl of the leshy as 67 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: it wore the young soldier limb from limb. As he 68 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: walked back home, his spirit sapped by the sounds, he 69 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: caught once more the sense of something vast and shaggy, 70 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: walking just behind the great tree trunks, yet tiptoeing impossibly 71 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: behind the smallest shrub or mushroom, not like a thing 72 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: that moved through the woods, but like something reflected in 73 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: its substance. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production 74 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow 75 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. 76 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: And hey it's still October. We are still going strong 77 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 1: with the monster stuff. And boy, I'm I'm excited about 78 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: today's episode. So, Rob, if it's okay with you, I 79 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: want to begin by reading reading a quote. You you 80 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: cool starting this way? Yes, let's do it. Okay. So 81 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: this quote is recorded in a nineteen book called Russian 82 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: Folk belief by a Penn State professor of Russian and 83 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: comparative literature named Linda j Ivantas. And this quote is 84 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 1: attributed to an old woman from the Kluga Province of 85 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: Russia describing what she believed to have witnessed during the 86 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: height of a forest fire. So she says, I looked 87 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 1: and bears and with them wolves, foxes, hairs, squirrels, elk, goats, 88 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: in a word, every sort of forest life, and each 89 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: in his own group, not mixing with the others. Thronged 90 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: out of the forest and passed me and the horses, 91 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: not even looking at us. And behind the beasts with 92 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: his knout over his shoulder and horn in his hands, 93 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: was he himself, and he was the size of a 94 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: bell tower. He himself tall as a bell tower, dragging 95 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: the horn and the nowt, and a nowt means a 96 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: whip or a scourge. Who is he? Who is she 97 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: talking about? She's talking about the leshy and awesome monster 98 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: of Slavic mythology, the demon of the woods, sort of 99 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: a malevolent trickster. NT. Yeah, I was, I was reading 100 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: about the leshy. I was not not really familiar with 101 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: it prior to our research. Here But according to Carol 102 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: Rose in her Excellent Spirits Fairies, lepre cons and Goblins 103 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: and Encyclopedia, uh, they're they're numerous different versions of the 104 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: spelling and and or pronunciation of the name. You see 105 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: it kind of like leshy but also lessovic or less 106 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: shak or less nor. Uh. So there are several different 107 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: variations on it. But just as just as the name 108 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: is kind of a morphous, uh, the you know, the 109 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: actual substance of the creature is also a fair bit 110 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: of morphous, to which one might expect with folklore, traditions 111 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: and any kind of entity that arises out of out 112 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: of out of old beliefs and old legends, old mythologies. Right. Yeah, 113 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: so the Leshy is not something that comes originally from 114 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: one canonical source. It it is a folk belief and 115 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: thus you're going to get lots of different versions of it. 116 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: And I think it's gonna be really fun to explore 117 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: where a lot of these different stories overlap and then 118 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: what the differences are. Yeah. So Rose points out that 119 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: the less She is essentially a Ussian nature spirit and 120 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: forest guardian. He's often described as a pale humanoid figure 121 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: with green eyes, green beard, and long straggly hair. He 122 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: wears a pair of of of boots, often made from bark, 123 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: which an he wears them on the wrong feet. It's 124 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: often said that he cast no shadow, and he's also 125 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: a shape shifter. And as we tried to reflect in 126 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: our opening, a bit of narration there a little or 127 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: dramatic opening. Uh. It's said that he can be as 128 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: tall as a great tree or as small as a 129 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: blade of grass. Likewise, he can mimic any sound in 130 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: the forest, which is a tool he might use to 131 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: lead humans astray. Sometimes, yes, and this is one of 132 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: the main threats that the less she represents that. There 133 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: again a number of stories, but the most common ways 134 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: that he represents a threat to human existence are in 135 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: making sounds or in laying sort of traps and tricks 136 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: that lead travelers off the path and get them lost 137 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: in the woods to wander hopelessly until they die in 138 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: the woods or die in a swamp. Or The other 139 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: thing is that he's often said to kidnap babies at 140 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: the edge of the forest, or to kidnap children, especially 141 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: unbaptized babies and children. Uh. And a lot of sources 142 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: mentioned this this idea of him luring wanderers off the 143 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: forest path by making noises. One of the sources I 144 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: was reading for this episode is a book by Elizabeth 145 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: Warner called Russian Myths from the University of Texas Press 146 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 1: in two thousand two, and Warner says, the less She 147 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: would quote hoot, roar, and howl, and the voices of 148 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: birds and beasts emit wild bursts of laughter, blood curdling shrieks, 149 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: and clap his hands loudly. Uh So, so it seems 150 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: like there are a couple of different ways that you 151 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: might catch the less She making sounds in the forest, 152 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: sometimes maybe mimicking the voice of an animal or human 153 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: in order to lure somebody off the path, or sometimes 154 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: just making a lot of noise, maybe to mess with 155 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: your head, kind of scare you or make you laugh. 156 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: Now picking up in the lessis appearance, there are several 157 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 1: sources that summarize the folklore. Again this is from Warner 158 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: and Russian Myths. Uh. The less She may and often 159 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: does look and dress like an ordinary human being. Like 160 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: there are some stories where the less She leaves the 161 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: forest and interacts with humans as if he looked like 162 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: any other human. But in fact, again, he is a 163 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: shape shifter, so he can mimic the appearance of not 164 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: just all the animals of the forest. Those are common 165 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: forms he takes, especially the form of a wolf or 166 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: a bear, But he can also mimic the appearance of 167 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: any particular person. So a child might be lured into 168 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: the forest by a vision of their own grandfather offering 169 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: them fruits and sweets. Or a person might be you know, 170 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,839 Speaker 1: antagonized or lured off the path in the woods by 171 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: the shape of their own father or mother, or husband 172 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: or wife, or even their child. But much like the 173 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: succubus who appears as a seductive, beautiful woman but with 174 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: say a duck's foot, the less she in disguise will 175 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: usually have a detail out of place, and that detail 176 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: will be noticeable to the observant. Hero you mentioned the 177 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: idea that the less she might cast no shadow, or 178 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: have their shoes on the wrong feet or backwards. Warner 179 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: gives the examples that the less she might be wearing 180 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: a calf tan like a like a Russian traveler might wear, 181 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: but the calf tan would be buttoned backwards, or his 182 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: eyes might be extremely pale, or he might have no 183 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: eyebrows I like that one, or again, he might cast 184 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: no shadow. And and and then finally, this one seems particularly 185 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: relevant in his role in confusing travelers in a forest, 186 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: he might leave no footprints. I love how common this 187 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: detail is across so much different folklore, that the monster 188 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: or the trickster demon will have some kind of detail 189 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: wrong that allows you to spot it. Yeah. And it's 190 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: the kind of myth, that kind of legend that that 191 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: appeals well to our our nature, you know, because when 192 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: when we're just encountering people for the first time, situations 193 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: for the first time, the suspicious mind is always looking 194 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: for for some sort of a tell, right, like what's 195 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: weird about this person, what's weird about this place? Yeah? 196 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: And and it also it makes the myth more fair, 197 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: I mean, unlike just the less she being a a 198 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: power that cannot possibly be overcome, and it just takes 199 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: whoever it wants and does whatever it wants. The fact 200 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: that there's some detail often wrong with it allows the 201 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: observant hero, the virtuous protagonist of the story, to to 202 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: catch them, to be like, hey, wait a minute, there's 203 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: something wrong with you. It makes you It makes you 204 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: think that maybe if you are clever enough, if you're 205 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: observant enough, then you could best the leshy. Now, Warner 206 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: agrees with what we already talked about about the less 207 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: She being able to dramatically change size, and it's often 208 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: reported in these stories that he can become taller than 209 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: the tallest tree tops. Remember the story at the beginning 210 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: of the woman who says the less She is like 211 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: a bell tower. Or he can be small, small enough 212 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: to hide behind grass or behind a mushroom. Now in 213 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 1: his true form, Warner says that the leshies appearance betrays 214 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: his affinity for the vegetation of the forest. So his 215 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: skin might very much resemble the bark of a tree. 216 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: It will be rough and gnarly. And sometimes he's said 217 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: to be completely covered in hair, But sometimes he's just 218 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: got hair on his head and a beard, and in 219 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: those cases his hair and beard might be as green 220 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: as the vines and the grass. But some imagery of 221 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: the leshy is more classically devilish in the Christian sense, 222 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: or at least in the syncratistic Christian sense that that 223 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: combines sort of Satan with the god pan uh Warnt. 224 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: Warner says that many descriptions include shaggy hair, almost like moss, 225 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: but also cloven hoofs and horns on his head and 226 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: a tail like the devil's tail. And then finally she 227 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: mentions that the horns are golden in the case of 228 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: one particular killer Lessi known as the leshy Czar. Uh. 229 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: But anyway, I think this devilish appearances is interesting because 230 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: it uh, it makes sense based on something that Warner 231 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: talks about in her book, which is called the dual Faith. 232 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: This idea that after Christianity took over the Kiev and 233 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 1: Ruth state in the tenth century, Christianity and old pagan 234 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: practices kind of mesh together. They coexisted for hundreds of years. Yeah, 235 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: and we've discussed examples of this before with other other 236 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 1: legends and folklore and and even mythologies. Um where Yeah, 237 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: the new, a new faith comes along and it doesn't 238 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: just wipe out the old. It adds new wrinkles to 239 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: the old or and or exist alongside the old uh 240 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: in ways that that might not make sense if you 241 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: were to say, write them out or discuss them. You know. 242 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: It's it's always fascinating how even as modern humans, the 243 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: various conflicting worldviews and ideas of the natural and the 244 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: supernatural that can simultaneously exist in our minds. It can 245 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: be hard to enforce the borders of one supernatural picture 246 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: of the world, Like it can be hard to sort 247 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: of like beat into people like no, no, no, like 248 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: this part these supernatural beliefs are acceptable. But these other 249 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: ones that your grandparents believed and their grandparents before them, 250 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: you can't believe those anymore. Yeah, Like, I remember, when 251 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: I was younger, there was a time when I was 252 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: at least a bit afraid of the prospect of both 253 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: aliens and ghosts, which rationally, it seems like, you know, 254 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: now I'm looking back and like, well, surely I should 255 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: have just picked one or the other, like one would 256 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: seem more likely than the other, and that should be 257 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: the one to be afraid of. I can't be, you know, 258 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: I can't just be afraid of everything that's on Unsolved Mysteries. 259 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: I have to pick, you know, like obviously be afraid 260 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: of the criminals, but then choose aliens or ghosts Like 261 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: I shouldn't have to, I shouldn't take both on. But no. 262 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: Unsolved Mysteries presents a perfect synchrotistic view of the world, 263 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: where all paranormal phenomena exists simultaneously now. Additionally, as Rose 264 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: points out, each forest is said to have its own leshy, 265 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: unless it's a very large forest, and then then you 266 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: can have more than one lessie. I guess it just 267 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: comes down to It's kind of like having park rangers, right, 268 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: depends just how big the park is, right. They gotta 269 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: like a range a territory, right. Furthermore, the less she 270 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: may have a wife in some traditions, which is a lessovica. 271 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: And then there are sometimes leshy children or l shunky. 272 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: And there's also a variety of leshy sometimes described as 273 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: a as a zoi, a bots schnick that takes on 274 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: the guys and sound of a baby gurgling in the treetops. 275 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: So in that in that case, a quality that is 276 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: sometimes ascribed to the leshy in general is sometimes pulled 277 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: out and made its own particular thing. Yeah, and I 278 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: think it's interesting the idea of giving a leshia family 279 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: allows you to to sort of add in more dynamics 280 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: that would explain natural phenomenon potentially, Like, for example, one 281 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: of our sources was saying that if you saw a whirlwind, 282 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: I think mean you know, whirlwind or even a tornado, 283 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: that was the leshy dancing with his wife, so adding 284 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: the wife in you know, they're twirling through the forest. 285 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: But this dovetails with another interesting belief, which is that 286 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: sometimes fallen trees found in the forest were said to 287 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: have been knocked over by fights between leshies. But you know, 288 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: you put those two things together kind of dovetails into 289 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: this interesting idea that I wonder if people at some 290 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: point maybe came across the path that a tornado or 291 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: whirlwind had cut through a forest, and you know, it 292 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: looks like something is just like come through and mode 293 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: this this shaved line out through the middle of the woods, 294 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: and what happened here? What was less She's fighting or 295 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: it was less she's dancing. Yeah, because there are no tracks, 296 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: and you know, there's no there's no sign that animals 297 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: did this, and yet something large has has trampled the 298 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: woods now like the forest itself. You know, at least 299 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: from a folkloric standpoint, the less she is said to 300 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: die with the advent of winter and then emerge from 301 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: his winter death in the spring. And it's during this 302 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: time and once the lessies have come back that has 303 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: said that the that the leshies of the forest rage 304 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 1: over their autumn deaths. They realize that they had died previously. 305 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: Now they're mad about it, and this raging produces storms 306 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: and floods in the process, but then all that settles 307 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: down again. So here we see an idea of the 308 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: leshy is a way to explain not only specific storm 309 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: damage but also just the general pattern of like spring storms. 310 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: On top of that, the the lesh she is a 311 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: bit of a bit of a trickster again, sometimes calling 312 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: out to human travelers with the sounds of the forest 313 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: to lead them astray, even taking the form of a 314 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: fellow traveler to give them bad advice or guidance, disappearing 315 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: and laughing once they managed to get them lost in 316 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: a bog or worse. Um, and uh, you'll have other 317 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: individuals though, that are wise to the ways of the leshy, 318 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: that they'll know how to out smart them or and 319 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: we'll get into an example of that. It's smart them 320 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,360 Speaker 1: in a bit, but also making offerings to them such 321 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: as salt and bread. Yeah, Elizabeth Warner points out how 322 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: there was some kind of division. Like She starts by 323 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: saying that, of course, you know, for many Russian people 324 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: living at the edge of the forest, the forest was 325 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: itself an image of of great bounty but also great 326 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: chaos and great danger, and that is of course true, 327 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: Like you know, becoming lost in the forest, you can 328 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: quite easily die. This is something I think a lot 329 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: of people don't really remember these days. Maybe they go 330 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: out and experience the forest in say nature trails that 331 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: have forged paths that you can follow, but like, it's 332 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: really easy to get lost and die in the woods. 333 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: And I want to talk more about the science of 334 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 1: that later on. But but then there are these professions 335 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 1: where people would have to go into the woods in 336 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: order to make a living, for example, and there would 337 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: be herdsman and hunters like you mentioned, and herdsman very 338 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: often in medieval Russia would not graze their cattle in 339 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,239 Speaker 1: open pastures, but would graze them through the woods. They 340 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: would have to find, you know, like little patches and 341 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: openings throughout the trees, and so it would require them 342 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: to go into the domain of the leshy and and 343 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: risk risk all these dangers. And so Warner writes, quote, 344 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: protective measures could be taken against the leshy, making the 345 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: sign of the cross, uttering a prayer or spell, and 346 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: more interestingly, reversing one's clothing or retracing one's steps backwards 347 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: out of the forest, reversal of the normal back to frontness, 348 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: upside downness, left as opposed to right. We're all signs 349 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,719 Speaker 1: of the supernatural and Russian tradition. Yes, I I absolutely 350 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 1: love this. Uh this example, the idea of wearing your 351 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: clothes backwards or walking backwards as a way to to 352 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: outsmart the leshy um and we see we see versions 353 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: of this pop up in other traditions as well. For instance, Uh, 354 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: I read that you see this in Irish folklore, sometimes 355 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: concerning encounters or potential encounters with dangerous varieties of fairy um. Uh. 356 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: And the idea here, it seems, and this is gonna vary. 357 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: There's not like you know, anybody wrote wrote this down 358 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,719 Speaker 1: and came up with necessarily a straightforward reason that this works. 359 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: But one one interpretation is that it's just about confusing 360 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: the spirit. Like the spirits like, oh, I'm gonna I'm 361 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: gonna get this woodsman now, and then he realizes, oh 362 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: that what's going on here? His clothes are on backwards. 363 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. I guess I'll just 364 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: watch him for a bit. Or it tricks the spirit 365 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: or fairy or leshy in this case, into thinking you're 366 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: leaving rather than arriving. And I love the twisted logic 367 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: of this, where it's like the lest She shows up, 368 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: it's like, all right, it's time to time to to 369 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: to unleash some havoc. Well, look at this guy coming 370 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: into my far Wait. Oh, the way they're clothes are 371 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: or are based. I can tell it looks like he's 372 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: walking away. All right, He's good, he's leaving. Carry on. 373 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: You know, it's just fabulous. This is really funny because 374 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: it kind of connects to the idea of wearing eye 375 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: spots on your back to deter preditors in the forest. Yeah, yeah, 376 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: which is which is something that has been been done. 377 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: We've discussed this in the show before too, with varying 378 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: degrees of success with both humans and also putting eye 379 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: spots on the back of cattle to deter lion attacks 380 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: and in parts of Africa. Now, as Rose points out 381 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 1: that the lest She can be very generally classified as 382 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: a guardian spirit, which we see in various and far 383 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: flung cultures. Many versions of this revolve around the protection 384 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: of individuals, uh, and these should be pretty familiar with 385 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: a lot to a lot of people. You have like 386 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 1: the guardian angels of Latin, Greek and Russian, Orthodox and 387 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: Anglican churches. These are assigned from the hour of an 388 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: individual's birth. Uh. Interestingly, one that Rose describes in her 389 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: book is the grind a gin of in the folklore 390 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: of Morocco. That's described as kind of inhabiting a parallel world. 391 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: So it's not that they're assigned to an individual, but 392 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: they're they're born at the same moment in this other world, 393 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 1: and so there's this bond between the two. Likewise, you 394 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: also have just Damon's and lend Lars, you know, getting 395 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: into ancient Greek and Roman tradition, and one also sees 396 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: this concept in the traditions of say Uh in Native 397 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: American tribes, Native Australian cultures as well. There there are 398 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: a lot of these to list, and she has a 399 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: lot a lot of them in the book, ranging from 400 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: the ab gal to the zoa. But then as an 401 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: extension of this, there's the idea of a protector spirit 402 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: that looks after particular places such as standing stones or mounds, 403 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: or certain natural places and or animals. And so clearly 404 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: this is going to be the kind of guardian or protector, 405 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: that the lesti is not of a person, but of 406 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: a place, which is the woods. Right, Yeah, the protector 407 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: of the forest very very much in keeping with such 408 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: woodland or vegetation spirits as the Gandharva's of India, which 409 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: are described as being like shaggy half animal beings and 410 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: some tellings, or the green Man of ancient European traditions, 411 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: a quote pagan image of a grotesque severed head with 412 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: emergent foliage from the mouth, beard, and hairline. We find 413 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: him in Christian churches from the sixth century onward. He's 414 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: a he's a wild man of the woods, a guardian 415 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: spirit of the forest, and like the leshy, is prone 416 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: uh you know to two tricks and meanness in the 417 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: woods and you know, leading people astray, etcetera. He is 418 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: also the genesis of both the Green Knight of Authoritian 419 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: legend and of Robin Hood. Yeah. I think one traditional 420 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: interpretation of the story of Sir Gawain and the Green 421 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: Night is of a conflict between the Christian chivalric virtues 422 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: represented by the Arthurian Chord and by Sir Gawain, and 423 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: then on the other hand, the sort of pagan embodiment 424 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: of nature and the wilderness, that is the Green Knight 425 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: a k a. The Green Man. Now, of course, we 426 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: have various modern versions of this tale as well, the 427 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: most the most obvious, at least to me, being the 428 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: character swamp Thing UH, which is very much a guardian 429 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: spirit and the tradition of the green Man and the 430 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: Leshy the more of a noble twist as a pure 431 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: protector as opposed to a trickster. And this is especially 432 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: the case and the Alan Moore run of the character 433 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: UH in the comic books, but you also see it 434 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: in most UH cinematic and TV incarnations like that. I 435 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: kept thinking back this time and time again reading about 436 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: the Leshy Uh. The nine nineties TV show version of 437 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 1: Swamp Thing had this um, this catchphrase that that the 438 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: swamp Thing would always say at the end of the 439 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: intro to the TV episode. It was do not bring 440 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: your evil here. What was the evil? It was like 441 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: a like a polluting factory or something. Oh yeah, polluting factory, 442 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: just general mad science from Dr Anton Arcane, you know 443 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Um. But but yeah, the swamp 444 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: Thing is very much in line with this tradition. I 445 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: think one of the interesting things if you start thinking 446 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: about modern standards versus um versus these more archaic versions 447 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: of the myth. And this is something I tried to 448 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: just sort of get at in that dramatic opening, the 449 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: idea of to what extent humans can understand the law 450 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: of the forest. And I think these these more recent versions, 451 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: like swamp thing, they tend to imply they kind of 452 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 1: take on, I think this environmental message of like, yes, 453 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: we can understand the law of the forest at least 454 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: to some extent, and we can do good for the forest. 455 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: And and I and I believe I agree with that. 456 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: I think that is part of our responsibility to the 457 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: forest as as protectors. We are kind of we have 458 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: to take on the mantle of the swamp thing and 459 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: the leshy and the green man, but the are I 460 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: think the more archaic version of this is again, like 461 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: you said, the forest is a place of chaos. If 462 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: it has a law, it is a law that we 463 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: cannot really understand, and it's a law that is not 464 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: written and maybe you know, it can't even be comprehended 465 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: by us, and therefore there's even more danger in running 466 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: a foul of it, because you you can't really comprehend 467 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: all the details of that law. Yeah. I think it's 468 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: kind of like the law of the hidden folk. It's 469 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: the law of the other world, and these uh, these laws, 470 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: I think sometimes in a lot of folk traditions can 471 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: be understood by but only by certain special kinds of people, 472 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: people who have a often people who are in some 473 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: way considered otherwise not normal. Yeah. Like another modern take 474 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 1: that gets into this is um Miyazaki's My Neighbor Totoro, 475 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: which of course is inspired by Japanese and Shinto traditions, 476 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: but the totoro that we encounter, they're very much forest 477 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: guardian spirits, and in Miyazaki's version of this, the only 478 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: ones who can really who can certainly see them and 479 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: to a certain extent understand them, are children. Like children 480 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: have that privileged insight into the rules and laws and 481 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: existence of this other world. It's almost like we're born 482 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: with an understanding of the law of the forest, but 483 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: the process of socialization and maturing beats it out of us. Yes, 484 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,719 Speaker 1: uh yeah, So this is one of the reasons at 485 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 1: the beginning I said that the less she is kind 486 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: of like a malevolent trickster. Int It's like if the 487 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: nt were a demon, because it makes me think of 488 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: the scenes in Lord of the Rings where the orcs 489 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: are punished for hacking down the trees of Fangorn Forest. 490 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: You know, the the trees get revenge and the ants 491 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: get very angry to see their forests destroyed. This is 492 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: something that that does come through in some of the 493 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 1: folk tales. For example, Warner talks about how there were 494 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 1: certain things you could do in the forest or near 495 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: the forest to really especially bring on the leshies wrath. 496 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: And these things might involve whistling, swearing, making a noise, 497 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: willful damage of flowers or trees, or hunting on certain 498 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: church festivals, which that last one seems kind of incongruous 499 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: with the other, isn't. Maybe it's tacked on a bit 500 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: by the by the by the priests. I agree with 501 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: all of those go ahead and going on a lot 502 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 1: of nature hikes these days. I feel like, I like 503 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: we need a leshy enforcing all of those rules plus 504 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: social distancing norms. Yeah, but that's just me. No. I 505 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: wonder if I ever needed to get another job, could 506 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: I get a job as a kind of leshy, like 507 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: in a state park or something. I just wander around 508 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: the forest. If I find somebody carving their name into 509 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: a tree or some you know, littering or whatever, I 510 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: make them wander off the path into a bog, you know. 511 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: I had my family actually had a very recent experience 512 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: on a hike which kind of felt akin to running 513 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: a foul of the forest. We never got off of 514 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: a paved path because it had just been a very 515 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: rainy weekend and uh, and so we knew that, you know, 516 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: we needed to get like a paved path to walk on. 517 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: But we still on this one particular road, we encountered 518 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: first a stretch of the road where mud had washed 519 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: over everything, so suddenly we were tramping through mud. And 520 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: then immediately we were set up on by by by 521 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: a whole cloud of mosquitoes, despite being kind of late 522 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: in the year, and I could you not. At the 523 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: very same moment, two deer showed up and a snake 524 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: crossed the road in front of us, like very close 525 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: to us, so like suddenly it just felt like like 526 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: the woods were opening up and speaking to us and 527 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: saying that we should not proceed any further, and in fact, 528 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: we turned back. He's about to come out in belltower 529 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: form with the nowt over his shoulder. Yeah, leave this place. 530 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: Do not bring your evil here. All right, Well, I 531 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: think we need to take a break, but when we 532 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: come back, let's talk about Grandfather Mushroom. Thank thank, thank, Alright, 533 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: we're back. So we know as usual that the listeners 534 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: to our episodes, you know, are far flung, and some 535 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: of you are going to have a great deal of 536 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: familiarity with these various Russian folk tales that were discussing here. 537 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: For for others of you, though, you might only be 538 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: familiar with them through some of the more popular, you know, 539 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: mainstream Western treatments. Like one thing that comes to mind 540 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: is once Again Jim Hinson's Storyteller series. The first season 541 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: of that relied heavily on and folk tales. I actually 542 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: haven't seen that first season. I've only watched some of 543 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: the Greek episodes, so maybe I should go back check 544 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: that out. It's like it's like Slavic folklore. Yeah yeah there, um, 545 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: you know, the czar shows up in one of them. 546 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: So there's several really good good tales in there, like 547 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: that whole season is worth watching. But there are some 548 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: really good ones like The Soldier and Death is a 549 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: great one. That that one in particular is wonderful. But 550 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: another place that a lot of you might be familiar 551 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: with Russian folklore is from a particular nineteen sixty five 552 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: film titled Moral's Goal or Jack Frost. And there's a 553 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: very good chance you're familiar with this film because Mystery 554 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: Science Theater three thousand famously featured it in one of 555 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: their episodes. So this is how it's certainly how I 556 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: discovered it, but I've I've had conversations with people like 557 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: I was this is years and years ago. I was 558 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: talking to someone from the Czech Republic and they pointed out, oh, yeah, 559 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: they would show that every year for Christmas. That was 560 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: our Christmas film, Like is that is a part of 561 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: our holiday culture? And uh and and and and at 562 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: this point I would say Jack Frost is also part 563 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: of my holiday culture. I rewatch it every year. But 564 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's a little bit different coming 565 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: at it from this lampooning direction, but it is a 566 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: very beautiful film. And if you've only seen, like, you 567 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: know this this really degraded quality version of it as 568 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: far as like the video quality goes on Mystery Science 569 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: three Mystery Science Theater three thousand. I I challenge everyone 570 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: out there to check out a pristine cut of this. 571 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: Either I think there's a version as of this recording 572 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: available on Amazon Prime, or you can also sometimes find 573 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: uh you know, versions of it on YouTube that have 574 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: just the full glorious quality of the film. It is 575 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: a beautiful movie and even without the riffing, extremely watchable 576 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: and extremely enjoyable. This is why I've never thought about 577 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: the idea that this was a commonly viewed Christmas film 578 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: for lots of people. So like here in America we've 579 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: got bumbles balance, and then maybe throughout Eastern Europe they've 580 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: got we will rob them. We won't rob them, we 581 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: will beat them. We will be beaten. Yes, yeah, I 582 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: mean really, it's it's not fair because we have like 583 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: Charlie Brown Christmas, which is awful, but but they have 584 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: Jack Frost, which is wonder Oh man, we're we're going 585 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: to get hate mail now. It's it's fine, I risk 586 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's perfectly okay. It's just not my thing. 587 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: I mean no, this is a wonderful movie. It's got 588 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: it's it's so imaginative. I love when Ivan gets the bearhead. 589 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: I love Grandfather Mushroom, I love the bandits, I love 590 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: the the creepy girl. It's it's fantastic, Yeah, it's it 591 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: has so many It actually has so many wonderful elements 592 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: of Russian folk tales, so just straight out of Russian 593 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: folk tales that really you could you could watch that 594 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: film and you already are in a great place to 595 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: begin reading more Russian tales and exploring them from yourself, 596 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: because it has you know, you have the the you 597 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: have Ivan Tsarovich is the you know, the blonde guy 598 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: who gets his head turned into a bear in the film. 599 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: He is a staple of Russian folk tales. You have 600 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: Boba Yaga, the the evil woodland witch. Again, just a staple, 601 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: the easy time and time again. Now you might be wondering, Okay, well, 602 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: where's where's the leshie in Jack Frost and I don't 603 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: We don't have a direct leshie, and we'll get into 604 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: some of the reasons for this, but we do have 605 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: an interesting character that pops up that I instantly thought 606 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: about in reading all of that this, and that is, uh, 607 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: the little grandfather Mushroom Father Mushroom character, the little diminutive 608 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: old man with a mushroom cap that shows up and 609 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: uh has a little bit of mischief in him and 610 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: teaches Ivan a lesson. Yeah, he is portrayed as sort 611 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: of a wise figure, a figure of the force, but 612 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: also like the less a trickster. You know, he's playing, 613 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: he's like doing, he's disappearing, playing hide and seek, sort 614 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: of taunting Ivan. Um. I don't know if we said 615 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: his his Russian name. I guess in Russian he's known 616 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: as Starry Chalk Borovia Chalk. Yes, that's what I've read 617 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 1: as well, you know, father grandfather mushroom. Uh. And and 618 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: again he has a very memorable um appearance in that film. Now, 619 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: one of the lingering questions that I'll get back to 620 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: again is I was never able to determine if he 621 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: has an existence outside of this film, like if he 622 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: if he pre existed as part of Russian folklore. I 623 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: did not run across him in any of the stories 624 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: I read, though I did not read all written accounts 625 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: of Russian folklore. And I didn't find him mentioned in 626 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: any of the academic papers we were looking at. But 627 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: that that doesn't mean anything either. Uh. And certainly that 628 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: film was such a big part of of several cultures 629 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: in sixty five of hints that you look and you 630 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: find like countless Christmas ornaments of him. So like now, 631 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: he is definitely a part of of our understanding of 632 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: Russian folklore to a certain extent. But I wasn't. I 633 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: was never sure if he was authentically something that existed. 634 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,320 Speaker 1: But for that film, you know, there are some interesting 635 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: connections I was thinking about between this, this mushroomy character 636 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: and the leshy. Beyond just the fact that he is 637 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: sort of a a trickster guardian of the forest in 638 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: a way, uh, there are some other things. Like for example, 639 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: I was reading in one of our sources that the 640 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: wrinkles on a mushroom are often said to be the 641 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: marks of the Leshy's whip, remember the less she carries 642 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: the now it or the whip to show his dominion 643 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: over the forest. You know, it's like the I'm the 644 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: Boss stick. But apparently the all the little ribs and 645 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: wrinkles on the mushrooms are from him flicking the lash. Yeah. 646 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: I ran across that as well. Um, that that's that's interesting, 647 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: that that seems to be the that was the only, like, 648 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 1: I think, one of the only true leshy mushroom connections 649 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: I came across, but I was reading a fung Guy 650 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: folk Ways and Fairy Tales, Mushrooms and Nildews and Stories, 651 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: Remedies and Rituals from Oberon to the Internet by Frank M. Duggan, 652 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: which was published in North American Fun Guy in two 653 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: thousand eight, and Duggan rights that Eastern Europe and Russia 654 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: are generally microphilic in nature. Again going back to we 655 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: discussed this in a previous episode. How broadly speaking, some 656 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: cultures are microphilic and some are microphobic, and this is 657 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: often based just in how they describe and broadly view mushrooms. 658 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 1: Um uh and uh, and certainly listen to our Mushroom 659 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: Foraging episode for more insight on that. But yes, uh, 660 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: Slavic culture is Eastern Europe, from you know, Poland, through 661 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: Russia and Finland. I think it's widely viewed as uh 662 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: as a totally common and desirable thing to go out 663 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 1: in the forest looking for mushrooms. And yet at the 664 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: same time Dugan points out that there were there was 665 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: still often a taboo against speaking about certain kinds of 666 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: mushrooms due to sexual connotations associated with them. Huh. Likewise, 667 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: some sorts of mushrooms were also heavily associated with Baba Yaga. 668 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: That uh that that evil m haggish um which that 669 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: lives in the would uh in that that fabulous hut 670 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: with the chicken leg. There's a story about her hunting 671 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,919 Speaker 1: for mushrooms and running into a hedgehog that was doing 672 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: the same thing. So the Bobby Yaga and the hedgehog, 673 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: they reach an understanding, and she later turns him into 674 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: a boy hero. And then there's also this really interesting 675 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: bit in light of mysilia. Quote Baba Yaga, he's also 676 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: an associate of magic and benevolent spirits who dwell under mushrooms. 677 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: Under mushrooms. Well, so you mentioned the massilia. Yeah, the 678 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: fibers that stretch out underneath the soil that are in 679 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: many ways the actual body of the the fungus, whereas 680 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 1: the mushroom part is just the fruiting body is the 681 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: reproductive part. Yeah. So I can't help but wonder if 682 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: that little nugget of folkloric wisdom is is touching on 683 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: this understanding that there's a you know, this is vast 684 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: network beneath the visible mushroom. I don't know. Now, speaking 685 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: of of Bobby Yaga, according to Andrea's John in Baba 686 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: Yaga the Ambiguous Mother and Which of the Russian folk tale. 687 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: In various Slavic languages and dialects, Baba derived words serve 688 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: as names for the butterfly, cake, types of cake, pears, 689 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 1: and certain kinds of mushrooms, as well as the pelican, 690 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: and she is sometimes associated with the Leshi. The author 691 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: points out that in the Mezen region, the less She's 692 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: wife is often said to be the yaga Baba. Wait, 693 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: did you mean to say baba or well, it was 694 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: written as jaga baba, so I'm not entirely sure if 695 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: we're I mean it's it seems very close. We either 696 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: either dealing directly with Bobba Yaga or some regional twist 697 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: on it. I'm imagining the inverted Baba Yaga. Yeah. John's rights. 698 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: Uh Melantinski, referring to an author and his colleagues feel 699 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: that Babba Yaga became associated with a forest hut later 700 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,919 Speaker 1: than figures such as the forest spirit or the bear. Presumably, 701 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 1: Baba Yaga is a later kind of forest demon because 702 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: of her anthropomorphic and therefore less archaic form, whether or 703 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 1: not she is the original owner. Baba Yaga is probably 704 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: the most frequent and popular inhabitant of the forest hut 705 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: in Eastern Slavic fairy tales, so in that you know 706 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 1: the author is talking about like forest huts, and now 707 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: they factor into these various folk tales. But it also 708 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: points to this idea that that that you have the 709 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 1: Bobba Yaga coming along after pre existing ideas of forest spirits, 710 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: because she's very much a forest spirit. She's very much 711 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: an encounter you have when you go into the magical 712 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: Russian forest. But there seems to be this idea that 713 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: the leshy is in essence something more archaic, and perhaps 714 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,320 Speaker 1: I see this reflected in other sources, perhaps less story shaped, 715 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 1: less less fitting for a proper narrative, and therefore you 716 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: actually see less leshy than you might think in in 717 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: at least known and recorded Russian tales. Maybe the less 718 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,479 Speaker 1: she more often a figure than a character. Yeah, yeah, 719 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: you do see see him pop up, but less as 720 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: like a key antagonist. But we will touch on some 721 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: examples here in a debt. Now. I also looked around 722 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: for tales concerning Ivan Tsarevich, the hero in Jack Frost, 723 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: and a traditional Russian character, and I did find a 724 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: tale concerning concerning Ivan and the leshy. Yeah yeah, and 725 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: this is collected in a fabulous collection titled an Anthology 726 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: of Russian Folk Tales by Jack V. Hainey. Okay, let's 727 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: hear it all right. So the story mainly concerns Ivan 728 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: and the immortal antagonist uh Cosha, the deathless who's this 729 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: this like evils are like being that is encountered in 730 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: a lot of these tales, Like he's he's kind of 731 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,919 Speaker 1: the big bad. For instance, Boba Yaga is sometimes sometimes 732 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,239 Speaker 1: like you know, more of the primary villain, but she's 733 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 1: often just this weird character you encounter on the way. 734 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,320 Speaker 1: But but the death List is just all evil and 735 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 1: and and terror and uh and and it's just you know, 736 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: the ultimate bad is he's sort of sort of a 737 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,479 Speaker 1: low pan sort of yeah, just you know, he can't die, 738 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 1: but there's some sort of secret to his immortality that 739 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: the hero has to figure out, and in this case, 740 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: that's what Ivan is doing, trying to figure out how 741 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,839 Speaker 1: he can deal with this deathless enemy. But in one 742 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: part of the story, Ivan and basically Ivan goes into 743 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: the forest and his typical in Russian tales, has encounters 744 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 1: in the forest that help and hinder. So in the forest, 745 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 1: Ivan encounters three leshy in the woods who are searching 746 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: for their grandfather's buried treasure. And these three treasures are 747 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 1: an animate fighting club. So it's like a club and 748 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,359 Speaker 1: you say, hey, go hit that guy over the head, 749 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: and the club goes and does it. Um there's a 750 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,479 Speaker 1: hat of invisibility, which I don't have to describe because 751 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 1: we have versions of this in every folk lord tradition 752 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 1: I believe. And then you have the fabulous self laying 753 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: table cloth that seems not as good as the other two, 754 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: and yet it's it's amazing thing, especially I guess if 755 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,439 Speaker 1: your dungeon master is very particular about making sure you're 756 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,800 Speaker 1: you're you're eating properly, because the self laying table cloth 757 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 1: is a table cloth that you whip out and spread 758 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,320 Speaker 1: on the ground and it is instantly set with food 759 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 1: and beverage. Oh so it's it's kind of like a 760 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: Loaves and Fishes multiplayer absolutely. So the less she are 761 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: fighting over the rights to these treasures, which Ivan has 762 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 1: already found, by the way, and and Ivan tricks them 763 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 1: into running a foot race instead of fighting. He says, hey, 764 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: don't fight each other over this, Why don't you run 765 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: from here to that? See that far tree that you 766 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 1: can barely see over there and mid the horizon, go 767 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 1: run at that. Whoever gets to that first wins and 768 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: the less you're like, that's great, let's do it, And 769 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,800 Speaker 1: they go off to run the race, and so Ivan 770 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,399 Speaker 1: slips away while they're far away from him. From there, 771 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,799 Speaker 1: he encounters the Baba Yaga at her hut, who he 772 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,279 Speaker 1: who's seeking for answers on how to achieve cos the 773 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: deathless how to achieve death? And of course the the 774 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:03,720 Speaker 1: answer ends up that there's an egg in a box 775 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: hidden under a mountain that he has to gain access too. 776 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,400 Speaker 1: So anyway, this is a fun encounter in and of itself, 777 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,760 Speaker 1: but it also makes me think back to the Jack 778 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: Frost film and remember the sort of dwarf like bandits 779 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,399 Speaker 1: that Ivan encounters and I can't help but wonder if 780 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,240 Speaker 1: they are sort of serving as a version of Leshi 781 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 1: in that regard. Yeah, like a dangerous chaotic force in 782 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: the forest that that Ivan has to interact with. And 783 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,760 Speaker 1: Trick I can't remember in the movie, doesn't he Arthur 784 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,239 Speaker 1: clubs in their scenes as well? Like they have to 785 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: they end up throwing clubs up in the air and 786 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 1: then later the clubs come back down and hit them. Yes, 787 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,839 Speaker 1: they do. That seems to connect to like the automatic 788 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: fighting club that the less she was arguing over. Yeah, 789 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,399 Speaker 1: I was, I was wondering the same thing. Um now 790 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: now again this this. I read this in the Anthology 791 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 1: of Russian Folk Tales by Jack V. Haney, who I 792 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: believe that this particular volume has ninety nine different folk tales, 793 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,359 Speaker 1: some very small, someome a little bit longer, and also 794 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: commentary on them, and it's it's a wonderful read. I 795 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: recommend it. But he also had like several volumes on 796 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,319 Speaker 1: top of this that he had compiled and these were 797 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 1: just like the best or most, you know, helpful to 798 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: share with readers. But he adds later in in this 799 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,279 Speaker 1: particular volumes, his stories featuring the forest speech, spirit, the 800 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 1: leshy are uncommon, and perhaps this again speaks to the 801 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 1: more archaic take on this being a more archaic take 802 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,840 Speaker 1: on spirits of the forest, which are less narrative compared 803 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 1: to other embodiments of the forest and wildness, such as 804 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:45,280 Speaker 1: Baba Yaga or even you know, Father Frost Morosco himself, 805 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: you know, who's very much an embodiment of of the 806 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,600 Speaker 1: winds of winter. So it seems that maybe the less 807 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: She and these stories are less going to be like 808 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: the main villain of the story and more kind of 809 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,960 Speaker 1: an environmental threat. I mean, the less She might be 810 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 1: something kind of like a like a particular monster encountered 811 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: along the way, or almost like a like a pit 812 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: of quicksand like just something that you've got to worry 813 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: about in the in the wild environment. Yeah, yeah, I 814 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,360 Speaker 1: think so. Now I want to share some other points 815 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,160 Speaker 1: that that Haney makes about Russian folk tales in general, 816 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,320 Speaker 1: because I think these can help us understand Russian folklore 817 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,560 Speaker 1: a bit more and also understand the less She's place 818 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: in these tales. So Haney contends that there are there 819 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 1: are more folk tales that may have emerged out of 820 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,520 Speaker 1: the Russian people than any other. He says, due in 821 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,280 Speaker 1: part to the fact that well into the twentieth century, 822 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:40,399 Speaker 1: Russia quote remained in illiterate and basically peasant country where 823 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 1: folk traditions were strong and carefully maintained. Okay, so is 824 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 1: the idea that if the culture was more literate, the 825 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 1: folk tales would have been less less retold. Um Well, 826 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: I guess the idea is like, once you start writing 827 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: them down right, then you have like a total a 828 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:02,239 Speaker 1: different energy takeover regarding the folk tales, and then you 829 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,920 Speaker 1: also have different influences on the shape of those tales. 830 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,200 Speaker 1: But in Russia, he's arguing that they remained um like 831 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,680 Speaker 1: the property of of the common Russian people, and they 832 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,239 Speaker 1: were speaking of this sort of Russian existence that had 833 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 1: not changed a whole lot, you know, throughout their history. 834 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,200 Speaker 1: But then he points out that the twentieth century comes 835 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,719 Speaker 1: along and this is an exceedingly hard time on the 836 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,400 Speaker 1: Russian people and it ends up disrupting their storytelling traditions. 837 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: He also points out that Russia has the second largest 838 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,760 Speaker 1: number of tale types according to the International Classification System 839 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 1: for Folk Tales UH. And this gets you know, when 840 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,400 Speaker 1: you get into the the scholarly study of folk tales, 841 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: you find it, ye other, there are all these different 842 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,640 Speaker 1: classifications for the different types of tales you encounter in 843 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,239 Speaker 1: cultures around the world. He points out that there are 844 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,360 Speaker 1: a lot of animal tales. UH. The frequent villains you 845 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 1: encounter are, of course the Baba Yaga, which is nasty dwarves, 846 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,960 Speaker 1: shape shifting the shins. However, Bobby Yaga is also sometimes 847 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: a donor or helper. Frequent characters in general, you have 848 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 1: Bobby Yaga and or Hut, you have the Firebird, the 849 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 1: deathless Prince, Ivan's are of Itch. We already mentioned Princess Elena, 850 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,839 Speaker 1: and of course generic Czar is often involved as well. Uh, 851 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,400 Speaker 1: you know, the king that is. And I believe that 852 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,320 Speaker 1: the exact nature the king depends, uh, you know, sometimes 853 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 1: a little more on the cruel side, sometimes a little 854 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,879 Speaker 1: more in the bedevolent side, kind of like just sort 855 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:33,399 Speaker 1: of the generic king you encounter in other folkloric traditions. Now, 856 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 1: it does seem that a huge number of these tales 857 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: do involve having to travel through the forest, right, absolutely 858 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,399 Speaker 1: that the hero frequently wanders through the woods and at 859 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,360 Speaker 1: some point receives help in his quest from an animal 860 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,360 Speaker 1: or some other sort of supernatural aid. And uh, and 861 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,320 Speaker 1: sometimes the charactery encounters is a devil or the devil 862 00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:59,440 Speaker 1: or the devil's offspring. Uh. This this was interesting. Um, 863 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,200 Speaker 1: this is a whole category of tale. Ivan the fool 864 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,200 Speaker 1: versus the devil or the devil's offspring. And it's not 865 00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,759 Speaker 1: really Ivan as a fool, but Ivan. I think it's more. 866 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,640 Speaker 1: You know, he's clever, but in kind of a a 867 00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:16,400 Speaker 1: roguish way. And in these tales, Hainey writes, it's important 868 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,279 Speaker 1: to recognize first the satire, but then also that the 869 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 1: devil is not really a Christian devil, but quote rather 870 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 1: a figure derived from the various malevolent spirits that inhabited 871 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:32,759 Speaker 1: the Russian peasants universe, the forest spirit or Leshy, the 872 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: water spirit or Vodiana, and others too numerous to mention. 873 00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,319 Speaker 1: So again the idea of the devil comes along and 874 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,719 Speaker 1: it ends up kind of absorbing these other ideas of 875 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,960 Speaker 1: evil things in the wild wood. This is just another 876 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,960 Speaker 1: one of the many interesting ways that the concept of 877 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,920 Speaker 1: Satan or the devil has evolved over the centuries. I mean, 878 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,840 Speaker 1: like if you go back to the earliest versions of Satan, 879 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,719 Speaker 1: even like in the in the Jewish tradition, Satan then 880 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 1: is not even presented as as monstrous or evil, like 881 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,319 Speaker 1: in the Book of Jobs. Seems to be one of 882 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,480 Speaker 1: the earliest references to Satan. Satan is like one of 883 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,359 Speaker 1: God's angels, you know, he kind of works for him. 884 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,279 Speaker 1: He he's sort of like a prosecutor or a like 885 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:19,400 Speaker 1: a detective doing you know, trying to sniff out disloyalty. 886 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,279 Speaker 1: But later on you incorporate more and more into this 887 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,319 Speaker 1: adversary figure of the monstrous, of the evil, of the 888 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,400 Speaker 1: all that's wrong with the world. And I think this 889 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,960 Speaker 1: is one of the reasons that the devil figure accumulates 890 00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,880 Speaker 1: the monstrosity of every particular location and every culture that 891 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,120 Speaker 1: absorbs him. Now hany does have some some other stories 892 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,560 Speaker 1: with Leshy popping up. One of them that that was 893 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,280 Speaker 1: really good is a story called A Prince and his Uncle, 894 00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,200 Speaker 1: which features an old trapper in the woods who serves 895 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,640 Speaker 1: the farest spirit or leshy. When a greedy king shows 896 00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,200 Speaker 1: up looking to squeeze more money out of the commoners, 897 00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,960 Speaker 1: he asked the old man how he catches his beasts, 898 00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,479 Speaker 1: and the old man says, well, the forest spirit sets 899 00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,240 Speaker 1: out snares and the beast is stupid and gets caught. 900 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,240 Speaker 1: So the king hears this and he gets an idea. 901 00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,200 Speaker 1: He bribes the old man with wine and money for 902 00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:14,040 Speaker 1: the location of these snares that again were set by 903 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,759 Speaker 1: the leshy, and then the king orders the less she 904 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,840 Speaker 1: caught and fettered to an iron post. Meanwhile, the prince 905 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:22,920 Speaker 1: is a decent lad and listens to the less She's 906 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:26,000 Speaker 1: please for release. He instructs the prince in how to 907 00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,799 Speaker 1: obtain the key to his irons and distracts the others 908 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,520 Speaker 1: uh while he's being released. Afterwards, the king is enraged 909 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,600 Speaker 1: and sends the Prince out on an excursion into the 910 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,080 Speaker 1: far corners of the world his punishment, and he sends 911 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,359 Speaker 1: his old uncle with him to guide him. This uncle 912 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,880 Speaker 1: figure who it's always in quotations, so it's like not 913 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,280 Speaker 1: really his uncle, um, but then again it's not super 914 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,600 Speaker 1: important to the story. Seemingly, eventually, the prince and the 915 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,160 Speaker 1: uncle switched places, and at one point the less She 916 00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,080 Speaker 1: meets the prince again and gives him some magical items, 917 00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,400 Speaker 1: which include once more the self setting table cloth, but 918 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:02,799 Speaker 1: also a magic mirror that shows you whatever you want 919 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,799 Speaker 1: to see and a magical musical instrument that kind of 920 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,719 Speaker 1: plays on demand. And then he later provides him with 921 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,960 Speaker 1: a horse and magical vodka to give him strength against 922 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,200 Speaker 1: a terrible monster. Now, sadly the story doesn't really involve 923 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,640 Speaker 1: the less she Be on this point, but we see 924 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,759 Speaker 1: the less She kind of serving this role uh in 925 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,880 Speaker 1: the later portions of the story as this magical forest 926 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:28,200 Speaker 1: creature that shows up and provides assistance to the hero. 927 00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:30,799 Speaker 1: But then he goes on to share what I think 928 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,680 Speaker 1: is my favorite leshy story that I read um Hain. 929 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,800 Speaker 1: He shares this story titled The Forest Spirit, which hinges 930 00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:42,040 Speaker 1: on this notion that you have a leshy or some 931 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:44,839 Speaker 1: or various other creatures like a like a coldn which 932 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,040 Speaker 1: is a type of male sorcerer. If you if they 933 00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,080 Speaker 1: are not invited to your wedding, they may show up 934 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,200 Speaker 1: anyway and find some way to spoil it. Wait, so 935 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,960 Speaker 1: you are supposed to invite them, apparently, that's that's one tradition, 936 00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,279 Speaker 1: is go ahead and invite the leshy. It's it would 937 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,280 Speaker 1: be rude not to because if you don't invite the leshy, 938 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,279 Speaker 1: he will show up and he might cause chaos. But 939 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,160 Speaker 1: I guess if you do invite him, he won't show 940 00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:12,680 Speaker 1: up there. You know, they're fickle, chaotic creatures. It's reverse psychology. 941 00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,040 Speaker 1: So this, this The Forest Spirit, is a fun little tail. 942 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:17,719 Speaker 1: There's not much to it, but this is how it 943 00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,920 Speaker 1: goes down. Basically, So there's an old peasant who grows 944 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,000 Speaker 1: and threshes grain, but then he suddenly keeps coming into 945 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,200 Speaker 1: the drawing shed to find that the grain he just 946 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,080 Speaker 1: harvested is already threshed. Now, basically this means somebody is 947 00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,000 Speaker 1: doing half his work for him for free. But you 948 00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,840 Speaker 1: know he's he's he's an old cadger, you know, probably 949 00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:37,960 Speaker 1: a bit grumpy about things. He wants to get to 950 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,960 Speaker 1: the bottom of this. He doesn't want unexplained threshing going 951 00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,839 Speaker 1: on and his his his drawing shed. So he asked 952 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:45,879 Speaker 1: an old woman for help, and she says, well, I'm 953 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:47,919 Speaker 1: just an old woman. I can't help you. You're gonna 954 00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,000 Speaker 1: have to go ask the local witch. So he goes 955 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,520 Speaker 1: to the local witch and she says, well, look, it's 956 00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,440 Speaker 1: a leshie that's doing this. Uh, but if you want 957 00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:57,319 Speaker 1: to stop him, you want to catch the leshie. This 958 00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,480 Speaker 1: is what you do. Stake out your shed and then 959 00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,080 Speaker 1: you sneak up on him and you loop a necklace 960 00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:04,960 Speaker 1: with a cross around on it around his neck and 961 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,719 Speaker 1: that'll capture him, making him your servant. And so the 962 00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,920 Speaker 1: old man does just that. Uh. The lessie, of course 963 00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:14,640 Speaker 1: immediately asked for release and offers to help the old 964 00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,360 Speaker 1: man build a new slip to haul grain on in 965 00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:21,520 Speaker 1: exchange for his freedom. The old man agrees, but then 966 00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,480 Speaker 1: keeps asking for more work in exchange for the less 967 00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,880 Speaker 1: she's release. So he's like, yeah, well I need some firewood. 968 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,560 Speaker 1: Maybe after you get me some firewood. And he's like, well, 969 00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:32,680 Speaker 1: you know I need the firewood chopped up as well. 970 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,279 Speaker 1: I am altering the deal. Pray I alter it no further, right, 971 00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,399 Speaker 1: But then finally he says, you know, Lee, she says, 972 00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:42,960 Speaker 1: all right, how about now can I go free? I've 973 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,839 Speaker 1: chopped your wood. I made you this slip. You know what, 974 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:47,880 Speaker 1: what else do you want? He's like, no, my niece 975 00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,480 Speaker 1: is getting married next week and you're coming to the 976 00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:55,920 Speaker 1: wedding with me. So the old man is just straight 977 00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,040 Speaker 1: up taking the less she to a family wedding as 978 00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,800 Speaker 1: his plus one. Does it explain why he wants the 979 00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:04,440 Speaker 1: less she to go to the wedding? Is he just 980 00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,520 Speaker 1: trying to like pad out the attendants. I don't know, 981 00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:11,520 Speaker 1: Like he doesn't expressly say in this book, or doesn't 982 00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:13,680 Speaker 1: you know, interpret it expressly in this book. So I 983 00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:15,880 Speaker 1: don't know if it's a sense where like I'm supposed 984 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:17,640 Speaker 1: you're supposed to invite unless you to the wedding, So 985 00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,520 Speaker 1: I will I'll just straight up bring him Like maybe 986 00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,640 Speaker 1: he is misinterpreting the tradition being an old man who 987 00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:27,520 Speaker 1: lives in the woods or um or maybe maybe he's lonely. 988 00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,080 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I kind of like the idea that 989 00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:32,480 Speaker 1: he's lonely, and it's just like he's spending so much 990 00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,960 Speaker 1: time with the less She's like, now, I'm come to 991 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,879 Speaker 1: this wedding with me. Come hang out. I may need 992 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:44,640 Speaker 1: you to chop some wood during the ceremony. Yeah. So, anyway, 993 00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,719 Speaker 1: they attend. The less she seems at first to be 994 00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,480 Speaker 1: standing back and minding his own business in the corner 995 00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:52,839 Speaker 1: of the room, standing by the doors, out of sight, 996 00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,239 Speaker 1: not even partaking of the food in the drink. But 997 00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,959 Speaker 1: then the less she sees a pretty maid bringing out 998 00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,200 Speaker 1: the soured milk the cup, which, by the context of 999 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,360 Speaker 1: the story seems to be just part of the ceremony. 1000 00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:09,360 Speaker 1: So the less she immediately takes her, spins her around, 1001 00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,040 Speaker 1: and then she falls down, spilling the milk all over 1002 00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,640 Speaker 1: the place. And unless she begins to clap and laugh 1003 00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:18,560 Speaker 1: at this loudly so everybody hears it, the guests do 1004 00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:21,520 Speaker 1: not find this amusing at all, and they chastise the 1005 00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,000 Speaker 1: old man for bringing such a guest with him to 1006 00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,560 Speaker 1: the event. Oh so this is the first time they've 1007 00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,040 Speaker 1: noticed there's a Lessi here at the wedding. Well, yeah, 1008 00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:32,320 Speaker 1: he's standing over there by the door. Nobody noticed until 1009 00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,440 Speaker 1: he started, you know, making a spectacle and spoiling the wedding. 1010 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:40,239 Speaker 1: So everyone is displeased, and they curse him and all 1011 00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,240 Speaker 1: and cuss at him. Uh, the old man and unless 1012 00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,880 Speaker 1: she go home the less she asked once more for 1013 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,759 Speaker 1: his release, and the old man grants it to him. 1014 00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,839 Speaker 1: And I love the way that Haney winds this up. Uh. 1015 00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,319 Speaker 1: He attributes this tale the telling him this tale to 1016 00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,000 Speaker 1: a sixty two year old peasant who related it in 1017 00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,239 Speaker 1: n and the The final quote at the end of 1018 00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,480 Speaker 1: the tale is in olden times, they believe this, but 1019 00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:09,960 Speaker 1: now they don't believe anything. Those darned kids no longer 1020 00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,839 Speaker 1: believe in the leshy. Yeah, I just yeah, I love 1021 00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,799 Speaker 1: the the grumpiness of the tale, like the tale that like, 1022 00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:18,319 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you this story. Kids don't believe 1023 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,239 Speaker 1: it anymore, but it happened. This is actually similar to 1024 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:25,160 Speaker 1: another tale that I was reading, at least summarized in 1025 00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:26,880 Speaker 1: in one of the sources we were looking at for 1026 00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:29,840 Speaker 1: this episode, which is the Encyclopedia of Russian and Slavic 1027 00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:33,920 Speaker 1: myth and legend by Mike Dixon Kennedy. And in this 1028 00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:37,359 Speaker 1: entry there was a story where there's a there's an 1029 00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,120 Speaker 1: old man who lives by the forest, and one day 1030 00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:43,040 Speaker 1: a traveler appears and asks if he can rest in 1031 00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,840 Speaker 1: his hut, and the old man says, yeah, sure, you 1032 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,000 Speaker 1: can rest in my hut. Now, the old man is 1033 00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,160 Speaker 1: a is a cattle herdsman who has to, you know, 1034 00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,560 Speaker 1: take his herd of cattle through the forest to graze. 1035 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:57,360 Speaker 1: And after giving the traveler a good night's rest in 1036 00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,319 Speaker 1: his home, he is told it's like review old that 1037 00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:03,120 Speaker 1: the traveler was a leshy and was like, you know what, 1038 00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:05,520 Speaker 1: You're not going to have to worry about your cattle anymore. 1039 00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:07,799 Speaker 1: You don't have to follow them around. You just let 1040 00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:09,719 Speaker 1: him go out and roam in the morning, and then 1041 00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:11,960 Speaker 1: they'll come back full of and and give plenty of 1042 00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,760 Speaker 1: milk at the end of the day. And this happens 1043 00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,680 Speaker 1: for a while until the traveler gets curious about what's 1044 00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,760 Speaker 1: happening during the day, so he follows his cattle out 1045 00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:24,680 Speaker 1: and then finds that they are being shepherded in in 1046 00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:26,520 Speaker 1: or I guess not shepherded. I don't know. What the 1047 00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:28,800 Speaker 1: term for a person who heards cattle would be a 1048 00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,479 Speaker 1: cat cattle herded by some old crone. I guess the 1049 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:34,760 Speaker 1: the ideas that she's a witch or a helper of 1050 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,600 Speaker 1: some kind of the leshy and when he finds her 1051 00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:40,160 Speaker 1: and tries to speak to her in the forest, she vanishes, 1052 00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:43,600 Speaker 1: and then the basically the blessing is lifted and he 1053 00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:46,120 Speaker 1: has to keep toiling with his cattle again after that, 1054 00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:49,160 Speaker 1: like they're no longer self servicing cattle. Uh, and so 1055 00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:54,000 Speaker 1: his curiosity breaks the leshies goodwill. Yeah, yeah, that does 1056 00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,120 Speaker 1: seem a very similar story that I did. The let 1057 00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,840 Speaker 1: she might just spontaneously start helping you. You out, but 1058 00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,520 Speaker 1: if you get too greedy about it, Uh, then it's 1059 00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:06,480 Speaker 1: going to backfire on you too greedy or too curious. Yeah, well, 1060 00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:08,760 Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately, I guess one way you could take 1061 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:10,920 Speaker 1: the moral of that story is just like, don't go 1062 00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:12,960 Speaker 1: in there, don't look too close at what's happening in 1063 00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,880 Speaker 1: the woods, don't inquire about the law of the woods. 1064 00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,600 Speaker 1: Just let the woods do its thing. Yeah. Alright, on 1065 00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:22,240 Speaker 1: that note, we're going to take another break, but we'll 1066 00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:28,360 Speaker 1: be right back. Than alright, we're back, so clearly a 1067 00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,600 Speaker 1: lot of the folk tales about the leshy come from 1068 00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:35,440 Speaker 1: anxieties people have about the idea of getting lost in 1069 00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:38,360 Speaker 1: the woods. Again, remember one of the main threats that 1070 00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:42,440 Speaker 1: the the leshy and his demon or monster form uh 1071 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:44,960 Speaker 1: you know, represents threats in a couple of different ways. 1072 00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:48,120 Speaker 1: One by like kidnapping children or unbaptized babies at the 1073 00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:52,360 Speaker 1: forest's edge, but also by causing people to become lost 1074 00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:54,400 Speaker 1: in the woods. You're traveling through the woods, maybe you're 1075 00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:56,440 Speaker 1: trying to stick to the path, but then you're lured 1076 00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:59,680 Speaker 1: off the path by the call of the leshy, or 1077 00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,200 Speaker 1: by the she pretending to be somebody you know or 1078 00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,120 Speaker 1: you know, or or mimicking the sound of a distressed child, 1079 00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:07,760 Speaker 1: and then you get lost in the woods. You you 1080 00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,280 Speaker 1: can't find your way home, and you perish out among 1081 00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:13,360 Speaker 1: the trees. I wanted to talk about an article that 1082 00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 1: I was reading about the real life sort of like 1083 00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,680 Speaker 1: science and history of people getting lost in the woods. Uh. 1084 00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:22,560 Speaker 1: This is an exerpt adapted from a book called From 1085 00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,080 Speaker 1: Here to There, The Art and Science of Finding and 1086 00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:29,400 Speaker 1: Losing Our Way by Michael Bond, published by Harvard University Press. 1087 00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,040 Speaker 1: This excerpt was published and wired and I thought this 1088 00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,760 Speaker 1: was really interesting. So a lot of the article focuses 1089 00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:39,760 Speaker 1: on the story of Geraldine Larkay, who was a sixty 1090 00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,280 Speaker 1: six year old retired nurse from Tennessee who died in 1091 00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:46,720 Speaker 1: the forest after becoming lost just off of the Appalachian 1092 00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:52,040 Speaker 1: Trail in and once her body was discovered, details from 1093 00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,560 Speaker 1: her diary and her phone clarified what happened. She had 1094 00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:59,600 Speaker 1: been hiking the Appalachian Trail and she moved just slightly 1095 00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:01,960 Speaker 1: off the path in order to go to the bathroom. 1096 01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,080 Speaker 1: It was that she wrote that she went no more 1097 01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:08,000 Speaker 1: than eighty paces off the path, but then afterwards was 1098 01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:12,520 Speaker 1: nevertheless unable to find the trail again. She survived for 1099 01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:17,000 Speaker 1: nineteen days before dying of the effects of exposure and starvation, 1100 01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:20,400 Speaker 1: and when her campsite was discovered, it became clear that 1101 01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,920 Speaker 1: she was actually less than half a mile from the 1102 01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:26,520 Speaker 1: trail as the crow flies, and that search and rescue 1103 01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:30,080 Speaker 1: teams with dogs had passed within a hundred yards of 1104 01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:33,720 Speaker 1: her campsite while she was still alive. She was also 1105 01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:36,439 Speaker 1: really close to some railroad tracks that could have led 1106 01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,520 Speaker 1: her out of the forest if she had known about them. 1107 01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:43,320 Speaker 1: And in this case and others like it. There are 1108 01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:46,720 Speaker 1: there's some really kind of like cruel and unsympathetic and 1109 01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:49,440 Speaker 1: and and dumb ways that people react to this by 1110 01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:52,120 Speaker 1: saying like, oh, how could you know? How dumb? How 1111 01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:54,200 Speaker 1: you know she could have survived? How could you get 1112 01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,840 Speaker 1: lost when you're that close to the trail? But Bond 1113 01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,840 Speaker 1: points out that experienced hiker don't talk like this because 1114 01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,360 Speaker 1: most of them know actually how easy it is to 1115 01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:09,440 Speaker 1: become hopelessly lost in a forest, and how powerful is 1116 01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:12,920 Speaker 1: the urge to do all of the just exactly the 1117 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:17,080 Speaker 1: wrong things in that scenario. For example, one common piece 1118 01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,360 Speaker 1: of advice is if you're lost in the woods, you 1119 01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,480 Speaker 1: should immediately stop moving, Like, as soon as you realize 1120 01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:24,280 Speaker 1: that you don't know where you are and you don't 1121 01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:26,960 Speaker 1: know how to get back where you came from, immediately 1122 01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:30,960 Speaker 1: stop moving. Stay in place, and you're more likely to survive. 1123 01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:33,680 Speaker 1: While you're in place, you can come up with a 1124 01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:36,920 Speaker 1: plan if you need to, and not exhaust yourself moving 1125 01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:40,000 Speaker 1: around or getting more lost in the process. You can 1126 01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:43,360 Speaker 1: wait for rescue without worth without wandering further and further 1127 01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:47,560 Speaker 1: away from where you were. However, the stop and wait plan, 1128 01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:53,880 Speaker 1: while actually very good advice, is extremely difficult to actually follow. Uh. 1129 01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,360 Speaker 1: What people with experience report is that the moment you 1130 01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:01,520 Speaker 1: realize you're lost in the woods, you are overcome with 1131 01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:05,720 Speaker 1: a powerful sense of panic that compels you to keep moving, 1132 01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:09,400 Speaker 1: in fact, to start running all over the place. Bond 1133 01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:13,439 Speaker 1: quotes a British psychologist named Hugo Spears from another work 1134 01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:17,160 Speaker 1: about his experience of becoming temporarily lost in the rainforest 1135 01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:21,479 Speaker 1: in Peru. So Spears writes, quote, so I didn't go far, 1136 01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:25,160 Speaker 1: but it's the jungle, and ten meters into the jungle 1137 01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:29,040 Speaker 1: is enough to be completely disoriented. I was lost in 1138 01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:32,200 Speaker 1: this jungle for two hours. They sent a dog out 1139 01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:34,560 Speaker 1: to find me. I wasn't the first person to have 1140 01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:38,240 Speaker 1: a dog sent out. It was terrifying. My brain just 1141 01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:43,000 Speaker 1: wanted me to run, just run, just keep moving. I 1142 01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,680 Speaker 1: was very aware that that was not the right strategy. 1143 01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:48,400 Speaker 1: Keeping moving in the jungle is not going to save 1144 01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:50,919 Speaker 1: your life. So I tried to calm down and think 1145 01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,760 Speaker 1: carefully and not react at high speed, and look at 1146 01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:57,560 Speaker 1: my environment. And I realized I was going in circles 1147 01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:01,120 Speaker 1: exactly like in the movies. I is using a machete 1148 01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:04,120 Speaker 1: to mark big trees, laying down a thread to know 1149 01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:07,040 Speaker 1: if i'd come that way before that was starting to work, 1150 01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:09,760 Speaker 1: I'd mark a tree with three slashes, and if I 1151 01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:12,439 Speaker 1: ended up back at that tree, I knew I'd gone 1152 01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,040 Speaker 1: in a circle. I was nearly back at the camp 1153 01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:16,800 Speaker 1: when they sent the dog out, but it was a 1154 01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:19,880 Speaker 1: huge relief. It just made me very aware that being 1155 01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,440 Speaker 1: really really lost is quite terrifying. It is not a 1156 01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:28,120 Speaker 1: normal thing. I think being lost in the woods is 1157 01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:32,600 Speaker 1: one of those types of scenarios where your imagination of 1158 01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:36,400 Speaker 1: it really does not capture what the experience would be like. 1159 01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:40,120 Speaker 1: People imagine they're like, Okay, you know, I've I've I've 1160 01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:43,560 Speaker 1: gotten turned around disoriented before, maybe you know, in a 1161 01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:45,760 Speaker 1: in a in a city or in a neighborhood or something. 1162 01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:47,680 Speaker 1: You don't know exactly where you're going, but it's pretty 1163 01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:49,880 Speaker 1: easy to find your way back when there are roads 1164 01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:54,240 Speaker 1: and sidewalks and landmarks. Oh yeah, there's that house. Being 1165 01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:57,320 Speaker 1: lost in the woods is not like that. Being lost 1166 01:03:57,320 --> 01:03:59,920 Speaker 1: in the woods, I think could it could be argued 1167 01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:02,160 Speaker 1: that it is a form of an altered state of 1168 01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:07,040 Speaker 1: consciousness that is terrifying and completely short circuits your better 1169 01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:11,240 Speaker 1: judgment in multiple ways. Oh absolutely, And you know I 1170 01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:14,200 Speaker 1: I have my friends who have been lost in the 1171 01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:19,200 Speaker 1: forest before, and they were not like as lost as 1172 01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:22,080 Speaker 1: like one can truly become lost in the forest, or 1173 01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:24,760 Speaker 1: certainly as lost as one could in the times of 1174 01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:27,320 Speaker 1: these folk tales, because they at least had not lost 1175 01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:30,200 Speaker 1: cell coverage for their phone and we're able to to 1176 01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:33,040 Speaker 1: use that. You know, they were still tethered to the 1177 01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:35,720 Speaker 1: into the civilized world via their their device, and it 1178 01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:38,960 Speaker 1: was still a terrifying experience. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, try 1179 01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:43,240 Speaker 1: to imagine it without those devices, without even a compass. Again, 1180 01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:47,200 Speaker 1: this is there are so many ways that imagining what 1181 01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:49,080 Speaker 1: it would be like to be lost in the forest 1182 01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:51,840 Speaker 1: does not really cut it. Like, you're not likely to 1183 01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:53,960 Speaker 1: predict a lot of the ways that your normal powers 1184 01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:58,760 Speaker 1: of navigation fail. For example, of course, now, uh, if 1185 01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:01,200 Speaker 1: you are lost in the woods, it is generally advised 1186 01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:04,480 Speaker 1: that you should just stop and wait for rescue. But 1187 01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:06,640 Speaker 1: if you are going to walk, you need to have 1188 01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:09,320 Speaker 1: a good idea where you're going and try to travel 1189 01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:12,240 Speaker 1: in a straight line. You might think that going straight 1190 01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:14,360 Speaker 1: is easy, right, I can walk a straight line. We all, 1191 01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:17,080 Speaker 1: you know, we walk straight lines all day, But actually 1192 01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:20,680 Speaker 1: it is not easy without landmarks, without trails or a 1193 01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:24,560 Speaker 1: compass lost people really do, and this is proven by research. 1194 01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:28,840 Speaker 1: They just walk in circles. There was research in two 1195 01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:34,040 Speaker 1: thousand nine by by Jan Suman who used GPS monitors 1196 01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:37,200 Speaker 1: to track volunteers while they tried to navigate in a 1197 01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:40,000 Speaker 1: straight line through a couple of natural environments without the 1198 01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:43,920 Speaker 1: aid of external landmarks or signs. This was the Sahara 1199 01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:47,480 Speaker 1: Desert and Germany's buy and Walled forest, and it did 1200 01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:51,080 Speaker 1: not go well. When they couldn't see the sun, people 1201 01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:53,920 Speaker 1: could not travel in a straight line at all. Small 1202 01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:58,400 Speaker 1: initial errors in orientation would just quickly grow wider as 1203 01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:02,360 Speaker 1: they piled upon themselves. And people actually truly did just 1204 01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:05,280 Speaker 1: walk in circles. I know, it sounds like that wouldn't happen. 1205 01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:06,840 Speaker 1: You're like, no, no, no, I could. I could go 1206 01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:10,000 Speaker 1: into straight line, but you probably couldn't. You just go 1207 01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:13,240 Speaker 1: in circles. Uh. And to read from the article quote, 1208 01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:16,960 Speaker 1: Sumon concluded that with no external cues to help them, 1209 01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:20,440 Speaker 1: people will not travel more than around a hundred meters 1210 01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:24,360 Speaker 1: from their starting position, regardless of how long they walk for. 1211 01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:28,760 Speaker 1: That's so hard to believe, but apparently it's true. Yeah, 1212 01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:31,880 Speaker 1: that the path in the forest is not just a 1213 01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:35,520 Speaker 1: suggestion you know it is. It is a lifeline. But 1214 01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:39,360 Speaker 1: another big part of this article, Bond talks about how 1215 01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:42,360 Speaker 1: being lost in the forest it doesn't just make it 1216 01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:45,400 Speaker 1: hard to navigate. It does that, but it also affects 1217 01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,360 Speaker 1: the way we reason. He says being lost as a 1218 01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:51,880 Speaker 1: cognitive state in that the woods make it extremely difficult, 1219 01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:54,880 Speaker 1: sometimes basically impossible, to form a mental map of your 1220 01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:57,720 Speaker 1: surroundings because woods just kind of look like woods if 1221 01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:00,000 Speaker 1: you're if you're not used to being in them, uh, 1222 01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:02,920 Speaker 1: he says, quote, nothing in your spatial memory matches what 1223 01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:06,840 Speaker 1: you see. Your normal mental equipment for navigation becomes close 1224 01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:10,560 Speaker 1: to useless. But even more so, Bond argues that being 1225 01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:14,960 Speaker 1: lost is an emotional state. Quote it delivers a psychic 1226 01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:18,160 Speaker 1: double whammy. Not only are you stricken with fear, you 1227 01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:22,160 Speaker 1: also lose your ability to reason. You suffer what neuroscientists 1228 01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:26,560 Speaker 1: Joseph LaDou calls a hostile takeover of consciousness by emotion. 1229 01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:30,880 Speaker 1: Of people make things a lot worse for themselves when 1230 01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:34,720 Speaker 1: they realize they are lost by running, for instance, because 1231 01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:37,720 Speaker 1: they're afraid they can't solve problems or figure out what 1232 01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:40,600 Speaker 1: to do, they fail to notice landmarks or fail to 1233 01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:43,600 Speaker 1: remember them. They lose track of how far they've traveled. 1234 01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:47,000 Speaker 1: They feel claustrophobic, as if their surroundings are closing in 1235 01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:49,880 Speaker 1: on them. Uh And Bond also says that there are 1236 01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:53,280 Speaker 1: chemical signatures of this lost in the woods panic. He 1237 01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:57,280 Speaker 1: quotes a search and rescue specialist named Robert Kester who 1238 01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:00,400 Speaker 1: argues that being lost is in terms of neuro by allergy, 1239 01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:04,240 Speaker 1: similar to a panic attack. The body floods with catechola 1240 01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:08,320 Speaker 1: means and the standard fight or flight behavior patterns get triggered. 1241 01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:10,960 Speaker 1: So in a subjective sense, it often feels kind of 1242 01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:13,240 Speaker 1: like a break with reality. You know, you're you're just 1243 01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:16,320 Speaker 1: kind of you feel like you're losing your mind. And 1244 01:08:16,400 --> 01:08:19,720 Speaker 1: this can even last after a person gets out of 1245 01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:23,400 Speaker 1: the state. He also quotes Ed Cornell, who's a psychologist 1246 01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:26,120 Speaker 1: who studies the behavior of people who get lost. And 1247 01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:28,160 Speaker 1: and Cornell says that it can be really difficult to 1248 01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:31,519 Speaker 1: get information out of a person who's been lost. They 1249 01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:35,719 Speaker 1: often have trouble communicating their experience and can't remember quite 1250 01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:39,400 Speaker 1: what happened to them. And uh And and the type 1251 01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:42,519 Speaker 1: of disorientation and panic and stress that's brought on by 1252 01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:46,120 Speaker 1: being lost in the woods causes people sometimes to experience 1253 01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:50,559 Speaker 1: delusions and hallucinations. Even in otherwise healthy people or seemingly 1254 01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:54,840 Speaker 1: otherwise healthy people. They will sometimes report hallucinating interactions with 1255 01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:57,640 Speaker 1: people in the forest. And given all this, it's not 1256 01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:00,360 Speaker 1: hard at all to see where stories and other oldly 1257 01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:03,320 Speaker 1: demon who lives in the forest and lures people into 1258 01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:06,080 Speaker 1: becoming lost where they would come from. You know, you 1259 01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:10,439 Speaker 1: can easily imagine somebody becoming lost in the forest in 1260 01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:14,360 Speaker 1: medieval Russia and then by chance they managed to find 1261 01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:17,680 Speaker 1: their way back or get rescued somehow, and what is 1262 01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:19,639 Speaker 1: their experience. It might be kind of hard for them 1263 01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:22,840 Speaker 1: to remember what happened, that's strange, and they may be 1264 01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:26,200 Speaker 1: experienced like stress based hallucinations while they were out there, 1265 01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:30,599 Speaker 1: hearing voices or hearing sounds, maybe even seeing people who 1266 01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:34,080 Speaker 1: were taunting them or luring them this way and that, Uh, 1267 01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:37,920 Speaker 1: it becomes quite clear how stories like this could come 1268 01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:42,240 Speaker 1: out of real experiences. Yeah, and I think it's also 1269 01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:45,160 Speaker 1: interesting how you know, we can compare this to the 1270 01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:47,760 Speaker 1: leshy and the idea of the leshy being both gigantic 1271 01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:51,479 Speaker 1: and small, hiding behind blades of glad grass, and also 1272 01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:53,920 Speaker 1: being the another size of a bell tower. There's this 1273 01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:57,080 Speaker 1: kind of this idea of the nature of the leshy 1274 01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:00,759 Speaker 1: warps physical space in a way that's ms to line 1275 01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:05,960 Speaker 1: up well with this um that the experiences we're describing here. Yeah. Absolutely, 1276 01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:09,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I gotta say researching this episode has has 1277 01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:12,559 Speaker 1: made me think kind of differently. I mean, I'm somebody 1278 01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:14,840 Speaker 1: who I love to go hiking in the woods on 1279 01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:17,599 Speaker 1: a on a path of course, and in the past 1280 01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:20,639 Speaker 1: I think I might have been, i don't know, more 1281 01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:23,200 Speaker 1: likely to to say, like, oh, there's something that looks 1282 01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:25,320 Speaker 1: cool over there, maybe I'll go off the path. I 1283 01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:28,800 Speaker 1: think that's something people should genuinely be cautious about, Like 1284 01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:31,840 Speaker 1: it is much easier to lose the path and lose 1285 01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:34,679 Speaker 1: your way in the woods than you might think. Yeah, 1286 01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:37,800 Speaker 1: certainly keep in mind for anybody who listened to our 1287 01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:40,559 Speaker 1: episode on mushroom foraging and decides to get into it, 1288 01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:43,200 Speaker 1: because you know, often is the case that you you 1289 01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:46,519 Speaker 1: spot the you know, the the tempting Chanterrell's just a 1290 01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:48,840 Speaker 1: little off the path, and you may go out to 1291 01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:51,519 Speaker 1: them and and may that may work out just fine, uh, 1292 01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:54,919 Speaker 1: you know, for you, but it also might not, especially 1293 01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:57,479 Speaker 1: if you then see the next patch of Chanterelle's or 1294 01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:00,719 Speaker 1: what might be Chanterrell's, but also might be just some 1295 01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:03,599 Speaker 1: some you know, orange ish colored leaves on the ground, 1296 01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:06,240 Speaker 1: and then before you know it, uh, the lesh she 1297 01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:09,280 Speaker 1: has led you astray. We will eat them. We won't 1298 01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:11,960 Speaker 1: eat them, we will saute them in butter. We will 1299 01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:16,599 Speaker 1: be saute in butter. I I do you know again, 1300 01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:18,840 Speaker 1: I have to to really recommend that that Haney book 1301 01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:20,680 Speaker 1: for anyone who wants to read Russian folk tales. But 1302 01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:23,559 Speaker 1: I have to drive home again just how good that 1303 01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:26,120 Speaker 1: sixty Jack Frost film. You know, it's not only in 1304 01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:29,200 Speaker 1: terms of just what a beautiful production it is, but 1305 01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:32,639 Speaker 1: it seems to really capture the nature of those Russian 1306 01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:38,120 Speaker 1: folk tales, because there's this like whimsy and danger and magic, uh, 1307 01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:40,280 Speaker 1: that is inherent in a lot of these beings, like 1308 01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:44,639 Speaker 1: for instance, the Baba Yaga herself is in the tails 1309 01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,680 Speaker 1: often described you know, is being you know, having these 1310 01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:51,360 Speaker 1: qual qualities of of a woodland monster spirit, but also 1311 01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:54,960 Speaker 1: of just like a ridiculous, farting old woman, you know, 1312 01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:58,160 Speaker 1: and and all that I think is reflected very well. 1313 01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:01,479 Speaker 1: And that whimsical performance in the sixty five film. Yes, 1314 01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:05,120 Speaker 1: Tom petty riffs society. It is haunted by peasant genius. 1315 01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:08,000 Speaker 1: It really is. You know. Another interesting point than Haney 1316 01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:11,240 Speaker 1: made in his overview of Russian folk tales is that, 1317 01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:15,599 Speaker 1: aside from the fact that the hero very frequently goes 1318 01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:19,160 Speaker 1: into the forest and has an encounter, also the hero 1319 01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:23,639 Speaker 1: always prevails, Like Haney really underlined that, like that the 1320 01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:27,040 Speaker 1: hero is going to win in these stories. So again 1321 01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:29,160 Speaker 1: we can think back to so many of these tales 1322 01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:31,879 Speaker 1: dealing with like the the chaotic nature of the woods 1323 01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:36,320 Speaker 1: and it being they being stories about how humans can 1324 01:12:36,479 --> 01:12:40,320 Speaker 1: and do overcome the chaos of the wilds. Though it's 1325 01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:44,240 Speaker 1: funny because the story is also uh, they don't encourage 1326 01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:46,360 Speaker 1: what in the modern day at least is generally the 1327 01:12:46,400 --> 01:12:48,720 Speaker 1: best behavior if you become lost in the woods, like 1328 01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:52,280 Speaker 1: the you know, Ivan Sarovitch does not sit down and 1329 01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:54,880 Speaker 1: wait for rescue. He does not hug a tree, which 1330 01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:57,000 Speaker 1: is actually the smartest thing to do if you get lost. 1331 01:12:57,040 --> 01:13:01,320 Speaker 1: He's like, no, forge ahead, Yeah, it always works out 1332 01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:04,960 Speaker 1: for him eventually. If you get lost, don't be like Ivan. 1333 01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:08,400 Speaker 1: I guess unless you've got a self setting table cloth, 1334 01:13:08,479 --> 01:13:10,559 Speaker 1: then you might be okay. Oh yeah, I mean, if 1335 01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:13,160 Speaker 1: you've got a self setting table cloth. That's really gonna 1336 01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:15,320 Speaker 1: help you out in the long run. I mean that 1337 01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:17,000 Speaker 1: that means you don't have to worry about food and water. 1338 01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:19,240 Speaker 1: Do you think the food from the self setting table 1339 01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:21,519 Speaker 1: cloth was good or was it just like you know, 1340 01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:24,880 Speaker 1: kind of yeah, you know, it's bread or whatever. Is 1341 01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:28,720 Speaker 1: it like really nice scourmet stuff? Um? I mean I'm 1342 01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:35,000 Speaker 1: assuming it was probably like basic like everyday food. Uh. 1343 01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:37,360 Speaker 1: I guess it was pretty good. I mean, there's a 1344 01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:40,640 Speaker 1: section where where Ivan's dining from it. Um, And I 1345 01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:42,320 Speaker 1: don't know, it's just not I don't think it was 1346 01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:45,320 Speaker 1: mentioned in that particular retelling of the tale, but I 1347 01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:49,599 Speaker 1: imagine it as being like typical like typical Russian people's 1348 01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:53,760 Speaker 1: food borshed in morals. Yeah, I guess. So you know, 1349 01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:56,760 Speaker 1: all right, we're gonna go ahead and close this out here. 1350 01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:59,559 Speaker 1: Obviously there there's there's so many other things we could 1351 01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:03,639 Speaker 1: talk about with Russian folklore, a tremendous amount of material 1352 01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:06,040 Speaker 1: out there. You know, who knows if if you all 1353 01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:08,559 Speaker 1: enjoyed listening to this episode, perhaps we could return in 1354 01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:11,559 Speaker 1: the future, but we would love to hear from you 1355 01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:14,800 Speaker 1: in the meantime. Some of the key questions, Um, I 1356 01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:18,080 Speaker 1: would regard, of course, did you grow up watching Jack Frost. 1357 01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:21,400 Speaker 1: If so, tell us about that and it's impact on 1358 01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:24,200 Speaker 1: your you know, your your your holidays, or your just 1359 01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:26,880 Speaker 1: a sort of appreciation of cinema in general. I understand 1360 01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:29,880 Speaker 1: it was quite influential on some filmmakers. By the way, 1361 01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:34,639 Speaker 1: I also am interested if anybody has any definite answers 1362 01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:38,959 Speaker 1: regarding father or grandfather Mushroom. Does he have an existence 1363 01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:43,040 Speaker 1: in Russian Russian folklore prior to that nine film? I 1364 01:14:43,080 --> 01:14:46,280 Speaker 1: would I would love to have some clarity on that question. 1365 01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:50,799 Speaker 1: And of course, if you have been lost in the woods, 1366 01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:54,120 Speaker 1: either just a little bit lost or like majorly lost 1367 01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:57,320 Speaker 1: in the woods, if you would like to share your 1368 01:14:57,479 --> 01:14:59,719 Speaker 1: your experience with us and tell us how it relates 1369 01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:02,519 Speaker 1: to both the you know, the studies that Joe mentioned 1370 01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:05,200 Speaker 1: and also the folklore we've discussed here. We would love 1371 01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:07,840 Speaker 1: to hear from you totally. In the meantime, if you 1372 01:15:07,840 --> 01:15:09,560 Speaker 1: would like to check out other episodes of Stuff to 1373 01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:12,040 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind, you can find us wherever you get 1374 01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:14,920 Speaker 1: your podcasts and wherever that happens to be. We just 1375 01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:17,639 Speaker 1: asked that you rate, review, and subscribe. If you want 1376 01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:19,040 Speaker 1: to just get to us quickly. You can go to 1377 01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:20,639 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com and that'll take 1378 01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:23,400 Speaker 1: you to our I heart listing for the show. And 1379 01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:26,280 Speaker 1: if you go there, there's like a store button on 1380 01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:27,920 Speaker 1: that page and that will take you over to our 1381 01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:30,280 Speaker 1: key public store where you can buy a shirt with 1382 01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:33,080 Speaker 1: a monster on it. Huge thanks, as always to our 1383 01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:36,559 Speaker 1: excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like 1384 01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:38,400 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this 1385 01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:41,240 Speaker 1: episode or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 1386 01:15:41,320 --> 01:15:43,240 Speaker 1: or just to say hi, you can email us at 1387 01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:53,960 Speaker 1: contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 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