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Speaker 1: Now tear gas canisters were plummeting everywhere behind the barricade

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Speaker 1: through the trees. A huge cloud of gas rolled over

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Speaker 1: the barricade, and cops with gas masks on came over

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Speaker 1: the barricade in an assault wave with shotguns and rifles,

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Speaker 1: using the butts as clubs on anyone in sight, knocking

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Speaker 1: people down and standing on them. Gas gas was the cry,

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Speaker 1: as if poisonous snakes had been loosed in the area.

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Speaker 1: Thousands streamed across the park toward Clark Street, and panic

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Speaker 1: started headlong, running the sudden threat of being trampled by

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Speaker 1: your own people. The tear gas was catching up with us,

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Speaker 1: a sharp menthol sort of burning on the cheeks and

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Speaker 1: burning in the eyes, but though some people ran from it,

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Speaker 1: most of us kept on walking. Now the tear gas

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Speaker 1: began really burning, making the eyes twist tightly closed, and

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Speaker 1: if you rubbed it, the burning got worse, as if

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Speaker 1: your eyeballs were being rolled in fire. The medics were shouting,

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Speaker 1: keep your eyes open, let it tear away. Water, Wash

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Speaker 1: your eyes with water. The information on how to handle

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Speaker 1: the tear your gas passed rapidly and with a warm feeling,

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Speaker 1: from one person to another. The gas drifted over Old

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Speaker 1: Town and the citizens came out of their houses, coughing

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Speaker 1: and gritting their eyes angrily.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh. That was excerpted from a book that was

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Speaker 2: published in nineteen sixty nine called No One Was Killed

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Speaker 2: by John Schultz, and it's about the nineteen sixty eight

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Speaker 2: protests and the in Chicago at the Democratic Convention, the

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Speaker 2: National Democratic Convention, and in which police tear gas was

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Speaker 2: used extensively by police along with other forms of violence. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so it.

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Speaker 1: Feels like it could be from any old day these days.

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Speaker 2: Erin, it does it does.

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Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Aaron Welsh and I'm Erin Alman Updike.

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Speaker 2: And this is this podcast Will Kill You.

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Speaker 1: And today we're talking about tear gas.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about tear gas not just a timely topic,

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Speaker 2: a timely topic for any part of well almost the

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Speaker 2: entire twentieth century, twenty first century. Yeah, so we will

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Speaker 2: learn to Yeah, as we'll learn. We really wanted to

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Speaker 2: kind of get into what it is we know about

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Speaker 2: tear gas and why men any countries allow its use

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Speaker 2: on its own citizens despite the fact that it is

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Speaker 2: banned in international warfare.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so kind of a big deal.

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Speaker 2: Kind of big deal. There's a lot to a lot

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Speaker 2: to care from. Yeah good, Yeah, well we'll get there.

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Speaker 2: But first, but first it's time. What are we drinking

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Speaker 2: this week?

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Speaker 1: This week we're drinking the tear Jerker.

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Speaker 2: We are drinking the tear Jerker. It's got elderflower syrup,

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Speaker 2: lemon juice, club soda, sprig of rosemary. It's pretty good.

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Speaker 1: It's a nice little bev for a not nice topic.

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Speaker 2: Yep, there sums up most of our quarantines. I think

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Speaker 2: that's so true. But you can find the quarantine on

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Speaker 2: our website, this podcast wikill you dot com on all

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Speaker 2: of our social media channels. Check us out if you're

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Speaker 2: not following us, We've got some great content. If you're like, hey,

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Speaker 2: what are you doing? I missed an episode? What's going on? What?

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Speaker 2: What do you want?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 2: There?

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Speaker 1: There?

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Speaker 2: Do do that? What numer do you have?

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Speaker 1: I don't know what touch we have, but we do

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Speaker 1: have it on our website this podcast will kill you

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Speaker 1: dot com along with Bloodmobile, who does the music for

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Speaker 1: all of our episodes, a bookshop dot org affiliate account,

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Speaker 1: a good Reads list which Aaron curates and is phenomenal.

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Speaker 1: We've got transcripts from all of our episodes, we've got

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Speaker 1: all of the sources first hand, account form, contact est form.

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Speaker 2: I will say I no longer curate the Goodreads list

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Speaker 2: because it stops the number of submissions that you're allowed

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Speaker 2: to add to a list. And so like years ago,

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Speaker 2: probably like three years at this point, I haven't been

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Speaker 2: like three years old.

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Speaker 1: So we need another good Reads list.

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Speaker 2: We need a good Reads list, or we need somebody

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Speaker 2: else to add to them. But if you want to

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Speaker 2: see like the full list, anytime that I read a

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Speaker 2: book or reference a book on the podcast in any

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Speaker 2: episode or for a book club episodes or whatever. Bookshop

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Speaker 2: dot org has a bunch of lists. It has the

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Speaker 2: Kid's book Club TPWKY Kids book Club, So if you're

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Speaker 2: not following us on social media, you're missing out on that.

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Speaker 1: You don't even know what we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: There our book our TPWKY book Club books. There's and

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Speaker 2: then there's like podcasts related books in general. So that

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Speaker 2: includes nonfiction, memoirs, fiction even so, but anyway, you should

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Speaker 2: check all that out. And I think that's it. Are

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Speaker 2: we ready to get started?

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Speaker 1: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Let's do it. Tear gas is prohibited in war, yet

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Speaker 2: many countries, including the United States permit tear gas to

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Speaker 2: be used against their own citizens.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like more countries than not.

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Speaker 2: It was zinc surprisingly hard. I was googling, like tear

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Speaker 2: gas band and it you can't. No, yeah, there's not

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Speaker 2: like a curated list right all of the.

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Speaker 1: No, it's used like extensively across the globe for crowd

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Speaker 1: control purposes.

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Speaker 2: And proponents of tear gas claim that it is a

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Speaker 2: safe and more humane tool to control riots, while opponents

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Speaker 2: of tear gas question its alleged harmlessness and point towards

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Speaker 2: the many instances where tear gas is deployed as a

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Speaker 2: weapon to quell legal and peaceful protests, not a tool

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Speaker 2: of de escalation, used as a last resort, but a

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Speaker 2: frontline weapon of political suppression, one that is not evenly

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Speaker 2: utilized across the political spectrum. So there are statistics I

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Speaker 2: found from the US Crisis Monitor that showed that in

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Speaker 2: the early twenty twenties, can we say that yet? Yeah, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: from like twenty I don't remember the exact years, but

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Speaker 2: in the early twenty twenties, police were three times more

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Speaker 2: likely to use force in protests organized by left leaning

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Speaker 2: groups such as Abolish Ice and Black lives matter three

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Speaker 2: times more is more likely. And this is not just

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Speaker 2: about tear gas. This is just the use of force

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Speaker 2: in general, in general in general.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, huh uh.

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Speaker 2: And also this uneven use, like we're going to call

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Speaker 2: out the US a lot throughout this, but this uneven

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Speaker 2: use is not restricted to the US alone. No, our

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Speaker 2: mental image of protest today is incomplete without a police

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Speaker 2: officer spraying a demonstrator in the face with pepper spray.

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Speaker 2: That infamous image that they tried to get wiped from

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Speaker 2: the internet, and it had the opposite effect to stressand

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Speaker 2: effect as it happens, or you know, these these images

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Speaker 2: of launching a canister of tear gas into a crowd

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Speaker 2: of peacefully and legally assembled citizens, those thick, choking clouds

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Speaker 2: are chilling reminders that quote unquote peaceful assembly is in

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Speaker 2: the eye of the beholder.

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Speaker 1: Oh god, Aran, was.

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Speaker 2: This the intention of tear gas when it was invented?

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Speaker 2: If not, what was the claimed intention and why has

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Speaker 2: tear gas followed such a different trajectory than other agents

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Speaker 2: of chemical warfare. That's the story that I want to

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Speaker 2: tell today.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I can't wait.

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Speaker 2: Tear gas is not, in fact a gas. I know

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Speaker 2: you're going to get into this in more detail later

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Speaker 2: on aaron, but and it's also not one thing at all.

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Speaker 2: It is an umbrella term that encompasses chemical compounds that

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Speaker 2: are lacrymatory agents, as in they produced tears, and historically

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Speaker 2: they were also referred to as harassing agents. And I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to go into the individual histories of each

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Speaker 2: of the different compounds that make up this tear gas category,

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Speaker 2: but rather I want to take us through the overall

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Speaker 2: history of tear gas as one discrete unit and how

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Speaker 2: it's idealized image of a safe, non toxic tool to

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Speaker 2: protect citizens is rarely born out in reality.

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Speaker 1: It's just the idea of it being non toxic entirely.

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Speaker 2: Right to protect citizens is the other to protect kills me. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The history, this history begins in World War One, when

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Speaker 2: chemical weapons, including tear gas, chlorine, phosgene, mustard gas, and

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Speaker 2: others were first developed and used extensively. While chemical warfare

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Speaker 2: had been utilized as early as four hundred BCE in

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Speaker 2: the Peloponnesian War between the Spartans and the Athenians.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god, four hundred.

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Speaker 2: People have been trying us for ages, just like we'll

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Speaker 2: throw things or like what else can we do? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: But it was really only in the early twentieth century

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Speaker 2: that the scientific and technological advancements made during the Industrial

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Speaker 2: Revolution could actually be applied to war. So it's like,

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Speaker 2: let's use all this new scientific and technical knowledge to

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Speaker 2: better kill.

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Speaker 1: People or harmon better kill people. Yeah, to kill people

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Speaker 1: more efficiently.

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Speaker 2: To kill the more efficiently. And when chemical weapons were

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Speaker 2: introduced in the First World War, the reaction was one

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Speaker 2: of utter A military chaplain describes what he saw in

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Speaker 2: April nineteen fifteen during the first use of chlorine by

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Speaker 2: German troops in Epra, Belgium on French forces. Okay quote,

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Speaker 2: a greenish gray cloud had swept down upon them, turning

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Speaker 2: yellow as it traveled over the country, blasting everything it touched,

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Speaker 2: shriveling up the vegetation. No human courage could face such apparel.

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Speaker 2: Then they're staggered into our midst French soldiers blinded, coughing,

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Speaker 2: chest heaving faces and ugly purple color lips, speechless with agony,

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Speaker 2: and behind them in the gas choked trenches, we learned

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Speaker 2: that they had left hundreds of dead and dying comrades.

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Speaker 2: The impossible was only too true. It was the most fiendish,

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Speaker 2: wicked thing I have ever seen. End quote. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: and that's horrific. There are so many accounts. We really

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Speaker 2: should do some of these other gases day as well.

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Speaker 2: But like the accounts were like something out of a

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Speaker 2: horror book. Like it was unsound, Like it was like unimaginable,

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Speaker 2: I mean at first unless I think so many people

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Speaker 2: until they saw it themselves or were part of it themselves,

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Speaker 2: did not know the scale of I guess, just agony

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Speaker 2: and terror.

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Speaker 1: And it's hard to I think, even imagine or conceptualize

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Speaker 1: when it's just that. I mean, it's it's everywhere, right,

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Speaker 1: It's not like you control where a gas or a

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Speaker 1: smoke or whatever goes when you when it's released. It's

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Speaker 1: just everything in its path.

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Speaker 2: I mean. And that's a big part of like tear

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Speaker 2: gas today is that it's it's indiscriminately applied, and as

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Speaker 2: affected by it is also indiscriminate. It's the wind changes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll get there now.

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Speaker 2: The Ibrah gas attack with chlorine was the first to

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Speaker 2: garner widespread attention due to its extreme lethality, and it

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Speaker 2: prompted the development and distribution of protective equipment like gas masks.

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Speaker 2: It would not be the last attack, nor would chlorine

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Speaker 2: be the only chemical agent deployed. Mustard gas and fog

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Speaker 2: gene also contributed to the ninety one thousand gas deaths

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Speaker 2: in World War One. Wow, ninety ninety one thousand. It's

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Speaker 2: a lot, and it's it's interesting, like there are so

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Speaker 2: many of these chemical warfare books that were published either

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen twenties or in during World War Two

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Speaker 2: period that were still like, we chemical warfare is the

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Speaker 2: best path forward. This statistic is positive for them. They're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: it caused twenty five percent of all of the casualties,

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Speaker 2: all of the injuries, all of the things that kept

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Speaker 2: people from being able to be in battle. But it

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Speaker 2: only caused this many deaths.

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Speaker 1: And it's just like it incapacitated, itepacitated and long term effects.

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Speaker 2: Forget about it. No one died, you know. It's like

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Speaker 2: that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Oh God, okay.

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Speaker 2: But before there was chlorine, foggene or mustard gas, there

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Speaker 2: was tear gas before those. Before those. The first use

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Speaker 2: of gas in battle in World War One was in

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Speaker 2: August nineteen fourteen, when French troops fired tear gas grenades

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Speaker 2: into German trenches. Huh yeah uh. And apparently the amount

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Speaker 2: of chemicals was so low that no one noticed. But

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Speaker 2: it set off an arms race where different countries sought

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Speaker 2: to outcompete each other in devising more and more deadly

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Speaker 2: gases and better protective equipment. It was just like all ripes.

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Speaker 2: And that's yeah. Strictly speaking, the use of asphyxiating agents

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Speaker 2: like chlorine was against the Hague Conventions that had been

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Speaker 2: set in place in the late eighteen nineties. Tear gas

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Speaker 2: was not banned under this agreement.

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Speaker 1: Okay, only because it's like assiciating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, But these agreements were so vague as to

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Speaker 2: be taken as suggestions at best. Like the loophole was

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Speaker 2: absolutely enormous. It was just like, well, you could argue

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Speaker 2: your way out of any of it, right. And when

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Speaker 2: World War One concluded in November of nineteen eighteen, the

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Speaker 2: perception of chemical warfare was divided along two very different lines.

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Speaker 2: It was either the most humane form of weaponry ever

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Speaker 2: created or the least. Yeah, I just I know. The

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Speaker 2: argument is mental gymnastics at a.

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Speaker 1: Humane weaponry period, Like, uh, sorry, and that's that's what

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Speaker 1: really kills me about some of these arguments that people

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Speaker 1: made then and still make today, and they're like, listen,

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Speaker 1: if we're going.

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Speaker 2: To have war, war is unavoidable, and you can't say

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Speaker 2: that one weapon is right, right, So that's like, first

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Speaker 2: of all, how many assumptions are you asking us to?

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Speaker 1: So many? So we've already had to leap. Okay, the

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Speaker 1: start down the line.

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Speaker 2: It's all it's all inhumane. But yeah, anyway, so we've

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Speaker 2: got these two different camps. Chemical warfare is humane. Chemical

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Speaker 2: warfare is not humane. And those who experienced gas attacks firsthand,

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Speaker 2: which was many veterans often more often fell into the

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Speaker 2: latter camp that it's the least humane weaponry. It's horrible,

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Speaker 2: with some expressing that they were more afraid of gas

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Speaker 2: than of shell fire. The effective gas was not only physical,

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Speaker 2: but it was hugely psychological. Caused widespread panic and chaos,

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Speaker 2: which often left troops more vulnerable to artillery fire. And

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Speaker 2: this was often again like a feature, not a bug.

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Speaker 2: This is the intention, and this is later on it

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, but it's not harmful, and it's like, no,

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Speaker 2: but we you introduced tear gas to then.

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Speaker 1: Kill, to do harm in order to do harm.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, protective equipment didn't always live up to its promise either.

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Speaker 2: The unwieldy, awkward masks made it more difficult to maneuver.

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Speaker 2: And then you've got something like mustard gas, which will

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Speaker 2: burn your skin through clothing. Yeah, it's awful, okay. Gas. Overall,

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Speaker 2: gas weapons were designed to induce suffering, or at the

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Speaker 2: least harm for those who believed it to be the

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Speaker 2: most humane form of weaponry. These qualities were points in

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Speaker 2: favor of chemical warfare, and among these proponents was US

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Speaker 2: General Amos Freese, pro military, anti communist, xenophobic, racist, white supremacist,

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Speaker 2: champion of the Chemical Warfare Service, and author of the

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty one book Chemical Warfare, in which he played

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Speaker 2: to Thoks about it. Oh yeah, it's a really dark read.

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Speaker 2: It's a how to. It's like a oh, how you

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Speaker 2: want to try? Yeah, it's a little bit of a

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Speaker 2: persuasive argument. At the beginning, it's like, this is the

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Speaker 2: best thing that's ever happened. And then yeah, let's go

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Speaker 2: through them all, and how do you recognize them? I'm

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Speaker 2: pretty sure it's that one. I read another book on

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Speaker 2: chemical warfare, or not all of it, but like I

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Speaker 2: found another book on chemical warfare from nineteen forty four.

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Speaker 2: One of them has a poem that's supposed to help

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Speaker 2: you remember how to detect the different.

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Speaker 1: The different types. Yeah, that's gross.

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Speaker 2: It's really grim. It's really grim. But anyway, So in

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Speaker 2: Amos Freeze chemical warfare, he says at one point, quote

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Speaker 2: instead of gas warfare being the most horrible, it is

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Speaker 2: the most humane where both sides are prepared for it.

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Speaker 2: While against savage or unprepared peoples, it can be made

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Speaker 2: so humane that but very few casualties will result. End.

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Speaker 3: Quote there's a lot in that savage against Okay, yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: It's cool to use it in war. Everyone's got a

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Speaker 1: gas mask, and it's cool to use it against.

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Speaker 2: Against people not in war, even if they don't have

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Speaker 2: a gas mask.

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Speaker 1: Even if they don't have a gas mask. It's all good, right.

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Speaker 2: The ends justify the means.

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Speaker 1: Of course, they always do right, right.

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Speaker 2: And so for Freeze and others in the pro gas camp,

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Speaker 2: chemical weapons presented the future of war, and the anti

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Speaker 2: gas sentiment that emerged after World War One threatened Freeze's

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Speaker 2: relevance and his career. Nevertheless, many world leaders disagreed, and

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Speaker 2: this was in alignment with the overall anti war sentiment

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Speaker 2: that prevailed throughout many countries after the horrific loss of

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Speaker 2: life from World War One. Discussions over the future use

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Speaker 2: of chemical and biological warfare in this interwar period led

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Speaker 2: eventually to the Geneva Protocol, which was signed in nineteen

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Speaker 2: twenty five, and it prohibited the use of both biological

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Speaker 2: and chemical weapons in international armed conflicts. Ok The language

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Speaker 2: here is kind of important, So I'm going to break

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Speaker 2: apart these a little bit so we understand what's being

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Speaker 2: prohibited and what's not. Okay, Okay. It prohibits, specifically, number one,

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Speaker 2: the first use in war of quote, asphyxiating, poisonous or

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Speaker 2: other gases and of all analogous liquids, materials, or devices

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Speaker 2: end quote.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: And number two the first use of bacteriological methods of warfare.

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Speaker 2: We're not going to pay attention to that in this episode.

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Speaker 1: Still interesting bacteria, Okay, exactly.

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Speaker 2: That's one of the things I was like, hmm, But

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Speaker 2: what the Geneva Protocol, this this version of it, did

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Speaker 2: not do was prohibit the research, development, testing, or stockpiling

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Speaker 2: of such weapons chemical or biological, or the domestic use

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Speaker 2: of tear gases or herbicides of course not, nor did

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Speaker 2: it prohibit things like concealment, smoke or incendiary weapons like napalm.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Tear gas was a more contentious issue like did it

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Speaker 2: fall under other gases or analogous liquids, materials or devices?

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Speaker 1: That's it, I mean yes, it could be.

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Speaker 2: Argued either way, right, like something, It just depends on

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Speaker 2: do you want to do you like tear gas or

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Speaker 2: do you not like your gas? So some said of

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Speaker 2: course it does. Others were like no, that's it needs

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Speaker 2: to be banned, right, or someone's like, yeah, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't count. And so because there was such confusion

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Speaker 2: over this and just making sure that the precision in

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Speaker 2: language was there, in nineteen thirty a conference was convened

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Speaker 2: in which all but one country that attended, which I

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Speaker 2: think was like thirteen countries overall, all but one country

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Speaker 2: agreed that tear gases were covered by the ban because

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Speaker 2: it was difficult to draw a line between lethal and

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Speaker 2: incapacitating gases. Okay, So going back to the language of

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Speaker 2: that protocol, the protocol prohibits it forbade the first use

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Speaker 2: of these gases, and so that means that retaliation is permitted.

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Speaker 1: So if someone gases you, you can go ahead and

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Speaker 1: gas them, yep. But they were the ones who did

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Speaker 1: wrong in the first place. But two rungs make it right.

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Speaker 2: So two rungs make it right. All's fair and war

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Speaker 2: and war, yeah, and so and so like. They essentially

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Speaker 2: that a lot of the countries who were like, no

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Speaker 2: tear gases also need to be banned were imagining a

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Speaker 2: scenario in which, let's say that a class out of

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Speaker 2: choking gas is released over a group of soldiers. They

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Speaker 2: are they don't know how to discern between tear despite

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Speaker 2: the lovely little rhymes that are in credit and textbooks,

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Speaker 2: but they don't know how to discern between tear gas

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Speaker 2: versus chlorine versus you know, it's not something that maybe

359
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,200
Speaker 2: immediately you are able to you're able to tell it,

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Speaker 2: or just one of the band gases or not one

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Speaker 2: of the band gases, And so before you even find out,

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Speaker 2: because you're allowed second year to retaliate, to retaliate, you

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Speaker 2: could then retaliate with a more lethal, deadly gas like

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Speaker 2: mustard gas chlorine, even if tear gas was the first

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Speaker 2: use one of the allowed gases allowed gases.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense where it's like if you don't know.

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Speaker 1: Then it's just tit for tat, and you're going higher

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Speaker 1: and higher each time.

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Speaker 2: Right, Tear gas would easily escalate or start a conflict

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Speaker 2: in that way, Okay, And so that is why its

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Speaker 2: use is banned in war.

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Speaker 1: That is why that is why it's use is banned

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Speaker 1: in war. Okay. Well that's an answer, at least.

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Speaker 2: It's an answer. But you know how I said, all

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Speaker 2: but one country agreed to this. Guess who? Guess who objected?

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Speaker 1: How what a hard guess?

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Speaker 2: The United States? Yeah, Yeah, the.

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Speaker 1: Country that likes to say no to all the things.

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Speaker 2: Mom tell me what to do, what to do?

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Speaker 1: I can use two your guys if I want to.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's basically how I imagine the US, especially Ams Freeze,

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Speaker 2: who had campaigned very hard by this point, like by

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Speaker 2: the by nineteen twenty five, he had campaigned so hard

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Speaker 2: to make tear gas acceptable. And so the US is.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm just imagining the slogans reco today.

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Speaker 2: Oh, there will be some slogans in here. But the

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Speaker 2: US's response was was was that they were unwilling to

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Speaker 2: bind themselves quote, to refrain from the use in war

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Speaker 2: against any enemy of agencies which had been adopted for

390
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Speaker 2: peacetime use against our own population agencies adopted on the

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Speaker 2: ground that while causing temporary inconvenience, they cause no real

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Speaker 2: suffering or permanent disability end quote.

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Speaker 1: We're using it against the people.

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Speaker 2: It's fine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're already are using it's it's not funny.

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Speaker 2: None of this is not None of this is funny.

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Speaker 2: It's just I don't even know. Yeah, the fact that

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Speaker 2: like that, that's not the argument that you think it is.

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Speaker 1: You're missing the point.

400
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Speaker 2: You're missing the point, you're yeah, yeah, So, but I

401
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 2: will say that, like, the discussion of whether domestic use

402
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Speaker 2: of tear gas should or should not be banned was

403
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Speaker 2: never on the table for this protocol, or or a

404
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Speaker 2: protocol like this. Really, it wouldn't be, from my understanding,

405
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Speaker 2: for a country to agree to external policing by another.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: So, So to me, the question is not why didn't

408
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 2: the Geneva Protocol also banned domestic use of tear gas,

409
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Speaker 2: but instead, why did these countries permit the use of

410
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Speaker 2: this chemical weapon against its own citizens in.

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Speaker 1: The first place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as you just heard, By nineteen twenty five, the

413
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Speaker 2: US had already begun transforming tear gas from a war

414
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Speaker 2: weapon to one that police could wield against citizens in peacetime.

415
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Speaker 2: They were not alone in this. Many countries would have

416
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Speaker 2: not only also refused to ban domestic use from if

417
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 2: it had been on the table in these discussions, but

418
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Speaker 2: these countries also many countries continue to use tear gas

419
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Speaker 2: today against their citizens. As we said, it's harder to

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Speaker 2: find countries that have banned it than those who have not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah period.

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Speaker 2: And in the US, leading the charge was General Freeze, who,

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Speaker 2: within months of the war ending, embarked on a campaign

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Speaker 2: to make over the reputation of tear gas, singling it

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Speaker 2: out as a safe and humane policing tool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

427
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Speaker 2: Tear gas was one of the earliest recipients of the

428
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Speaker 2: pr treatment, with public demonstrations, marketing campaigns, paid spokespeople like

429
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Speaker 2: doctors saying like I attest to the safety of this

430
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Speaker 2: tear gas.

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Speaker 1: Why we can't have doctors promoting things okay, thank.

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Speaker 2: You, yeah, and smear tactics against those who questioned its safety,

433
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 2: who were like, uh, this is bad. I've experienced this firsthand,

434
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Speaker 2: and I this is not acceptable to use. So there's

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00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 2: a nineteen twenty one profile that was written about freeze,

436
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 2: and it described how he was quote firmly convinced that

437
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 2: as soon as officers of the law and colonial administrators

438
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 2: have familiarized themselves with gas as a means of maintaining

439
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 2: order and power, there will be such a diminution of

440
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 2: violent social disorders and savage uprising as to amount to

441
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: their disappearance. The tear gases appear to be admirably suited

442
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: to the purpose of isolating the individual from the mob

443
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 2: spirit grown into a condition in which he can think

444
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 2: of nothing but relieving his own distress. An advantage of

445
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: the milder form of gas weapons in dealing with a

446
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: mob is that the responsible officer need not hesitate to

447
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 2: use his weapons.

448
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 1: End quote Oh my god, Aaron like, not only do

449
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: they just make it so clear that we will use

450
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: this to shut up anyone who is fighting against us,

451
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: right any descent, who voices of any descent, we can

452
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 1: shut it down. And also we can just use our

453
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: weapons much more freely.

454
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 2: That because I feel like so much of the time

455
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 2: the proponents of tear gas, whether you know, since the

456
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 2: nineteen sixties and beyond, tear gas has always been framed

457
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 2: and today is framed as a weapon of last resort,

458
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 2: of like a not even a weapon, a tool of

459
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 2: last resort, right, Like, it's not friendly when we are

460
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 2: worried about bodily harm. It's only we're worried about the

461
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: safety of our citizens and private property, natural property, property damage,

462
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 2: private property. So it's only when these things are on

463
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 2: the table is tear gas ever used, And that has

464
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 2: never It's like it is literally that. This is what

465
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: he was pushing for, is that you don't have to

466
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 2: hesitate to use it. This is a frontline weapon to

467
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 2: be used.

468
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: Rist. This is the first thing you can do.

469
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 2: This is the first thing. Don't worry about.

470
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: Won't do damage, Yeah, lasting damage, that's an air just listening. Yeah.

471
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: There was pushback against the military the use of military

472
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 2: weapons against citizens, and many veterans strongly objected to the

473
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: characterization of any gas as humane, but they were dismissed

474
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 2: as liars or exaggerators. These were the people that Freeze

475
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 2: was like, smear campaigns, smear campaigns. Oh they just want benefits.

476
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 2: Oh they just do whatever. They don't know what they're

477
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 2: talking about.

478
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

479
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 2: Freeze was strongly in favor of using military tactics to

480
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 2: quell dissent domestic but it was more than that. There

481
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: was a whole industry to consider, a purgeoning industry aaron.

482
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: The late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries were witnessing a

483
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 2: chemical revolution, not just in scientific knowledge but also industry.

484
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 2: Many chemical companies stood a lot to gain by keeping

485
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: gas on the table, and if they couldn't get approval

486
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 2: to keep manufacturing all wartime gases, then maybe tear gas

487
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 2: could still be a nice revenue streams. Where would that

488
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 2: revenue come from, Well, we've got police departments, prisons, the

489
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: National Guard, and private security. Ample opportunity there, And I

490
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: mean it wasn't a hard sell at all. The incorporation

491
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: of tear gas essentially began the militarization of police in

492
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 2: this country. Ugh, tear gas. Yeah, tear gas was framed

493
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 2: in a positive light as the best and safest alternative

494
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: to lethal force, as though if tear gas were taken away,

495
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 2: the only option would be to use lethal force against

496
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: a crowd, not non violent, non lethal de escalation techniques,

497
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: just lethal force. And so yeah, it's it's this false

498
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: dichotomy between It reduces the options down to two tear

499
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: gas or lethal.

500
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: For lethal force.

501
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: That's it.

502
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: Those are our only two options in dealing with crowds

503
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: or anyone saying anything that we don't want. We can

504
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: either kill you or quote unquote not harm you that

505
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: that incapacitate incapacitate we can those are our only two options.

506
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's horrific.

507
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: Tear gas lowered the threshold for deciding to use force.

508
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 2: The development of tear gas technology reveals that the intention

509
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 2: for harm was built into the devices themselves. Tear Gas

510
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 2: shells were meant to be fired directly in someone's face

511
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 2: to be quote unquote effective for best efficacy fire this

512
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 2: into someone's face. They were desirable, written about as desirable

513
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 2: for their ability to cause quote unquote walloping pain. Tests

514
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 2: measuring the efficacy of tear gas were deployed specifically against

515
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 2: unarmed individuals, again demonstrating that causing injury was not a

516
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 2: bug but a feature. By the end of the nineteen twenties,

517
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: tear gas had been heartily embraced by many policing forces

518
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 2: in the United States, and it had begun to be

519
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: used to suppress labor movements such as in the Panama

520
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 2: Canal and political protests like when the Bonus Army lobbied

521
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: outside the White House to demand their overdue wartime payments.

522
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 2: The publicity surrounding the use of tear gas served, like

523
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: in these specific instances, served as advertisements for many policing forces.

524
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: It normalized its use and it demonstrated how effective it

525
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: could be.

526
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: Oh wow, look how great we did with tears. How great, Yeah,

527
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: getting these veterans to get down.

528
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. The tagline of lake Erie Chemical Company, which was

529
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: a there was their line of tear gas products. They

530
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 2: were one of the biggest manufacturers of tear gas products

531
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: was quote one man with chemical warfare gas can put

532
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: to flight a thousand armed men and the ear resistible

533
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: blast of blinding, choking pain, no permanent injury.

534
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: End quote no permanent injury, No permanent injury.

535
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 2: That promise did not reflect reality. Severe head injuries were

536
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 2: not uncommon after protests or strikes were tear gassed. And

537
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: this wasn't just about you know, long term effects in

538
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 2: terms of it. I know you're going to talk about

539
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: this being you know, effects on or damage to vision,

540
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: damage to your lungs, GI tract burns, but also the

541
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 2: canisters themselves can often cause tremendous harm. They still had

542
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: head injuries. Yes, Yeah, And even though at the time,

543
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: there were supposed to be restrictions on who could actually

544
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: buy tear gas, those were often ignored, and a committee

545
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 2: that was investigating the Chemical Warfare Service found that between

546
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty three and nineteen thirty seven, over one point

547
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: twenty five million dollars worth of old time money of

548
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: tear gases was sold in anticipation of strikes. Wow, labor

549
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 2: movements man dangerous things.

550
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: Ooh so dangerous to demand equal pay.

551
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 2: Days off, disrupting labor disputes and breaking up political protests

552
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 2: they were just two demonstrated uses of tear gas. The

553
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 2: weapon was also readily wielded by colonial administration, particularly in

554
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: British colonies. It didn't start out that way. Following World

555
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 2: War One, Britain was actually opposed to the use of

556
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 2: tear gas, feeling that it was uncivilized and could not

557
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: possibly be used against citizens when its use in war

558
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 2: was prohibited. So logical, like what yeah, But after a

559
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: few violent suppressions of colonial uprisings in which colonial authorities

560
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: killed at least four hundred and possibly fifteen hundred unarmed

561
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 2: people in India protesting new authoritarian legislation, and there was

562
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 2: a lot of outcry, public outcry, shame, negative public opinion

563
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: that followed this, and so they were like, you know what,

564
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 2: maybe this blanket ban on chemical warfare it's a bit extreme.

565
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 2: Maybe the use of tear gas could help us out

566
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 2: in this way public image versus safer. I don't know.

567
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: I was not there to but again, it's the same

568
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: thing that we already talked about. It's this fullosnachotomy. Oh well,

569
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: we accidental killed too many people. We better find a

570
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: way to get these people in line without killing them all.

571
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: Killing them without changing the who's wielding the force the

572
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:18,439
Speaker 2: weapon right without yep, oh god, yeah. And so they

573
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: began to adopt the use of tear gas in there

574
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: in British colonies beginning in the nineteen thirties, and then

575
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 2: later they were used in tear gas was used in

576
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 2: Northern Ireland during the troubles. And while England or the

577
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 2: UK did not play a big role in the manufacture

578
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: of tear gas, unlike the US, they did do extensive

579
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: research on deployment strategies. You know, how much to use,

580
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 2: when to use, just like how best to gas people,

581
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 2: how to guide here's a pamphlet. And the US found

582
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 2: this extremely helpful throughout the nineteen sixties, particularly in the

583
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 2: later half of the decade with the civil rights movement

584
00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 2: and anti war protests, tear gas was extensively deployed on

585
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 2: so many peaceful demonstrations, disrupting sit ins, marches, assemblies at

586
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: meeting halls. It was not used, as it was claimed

587
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 2: to be, to put a stop to violence, but rather

588
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,479
Speaker 2: it introduced. It forced people to run wildly and flee

589
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 2: in terror as they struggled to breathe. So I read

590
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 2: a book for this called Tear Gas by Anna Fagenbaum,

591
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 2: And there's a quote I'm going to read that describes

592
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 2: the psychological impact of tear gas quote in escalating force

593
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: and arousing derision from onlookers. Tear gas implicates protesters and

594
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 2: often bystanders in a violent and chaotic scene. It turns

595
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 2: civilians into criminals. End quote. Yeah, when people are bombarded

596
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 2: by tear gas and they begin to run in panic,

597
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 2: some police then might feel justified to beat them, taser them,

598
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 2: shoot them in order to restore the piece that they

599
00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 2: themselves had destroyed. Right so wielded in this way, tear

600
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 2: gas became the grounds for police violence, a punitive weapon

601
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 2: to threaten what would happen if you dared to challenge

602
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 2: the political authority, just like we see with abolish ice

603
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 2: protests and Black Lives Matter marches today, if what you

604
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: stood up for was not in line with what was

605
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 2: deemed politically acceptable, your action, legal or peaceful though it

606
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 2: may be, would be deemed illegitimate or violent through the

607
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 2: use of tear gas. And in the nineteen sixties in

608
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 2: the US, things kind of came to a head in

609
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight at the Democratic National Convention held in Chicago,

610
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 2: So this is where our first hand account comes from.

611
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 2: Ten thousand people marched on the city for civil rights

612
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 2: and to put an end to the war in Vietnam.

613
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 2: Police deployed staggering amounts of tear gas, so much so

614
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: that it warmed its way into buildings, covered entire city blocks.

615
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 2: There was no escape, not from the tear gas and

616
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 2: not from police bing and estimated four hundred people were

617
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: treated for injuries from tear gas, but no one was killed.

618
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: No one was killed, so this event was later described

619
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 2: in an official report as a quote unquote police riot

620
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: due to the excessive violence, and the entire event captured

621
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 2: headlines across the country. It was on like so many

622
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 2: news reports. It was like one of the biggest demonstrations

623
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 2: of the excessive use of force and tear gas. The

624
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 2: whole world is watching. The whole world is watching, and

625
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 2: it didn't slow down the use of tear gas. In fact,

626
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: it wasn't that much longer afterwards that Reagan, who was

627
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 2: governor of California at the time, ordered a military helicopter

628
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 2: to drop a bunch of tear gas on protesters at

629
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 2: a park in Berkeley. So there you go. And it's

630
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 2: just it is really interesting because the increased visibility did

631
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 2: it what did it? Don't? I don't know, I don't.

632
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, it's like the same thing today where

633
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: we have cell phones and we can capture the fact

634
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,919
Speaker 1: that people are just sitting at a protest, they're dressed

635
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,879
Speaker 1: like frogs for goodness sake, for chickens, and there's tear

636
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: gas being deployed for absolutely no reason and.

637
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 2: It's reason reason.

638
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, exactly, Yeah, and yeah we can see it

639
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 1: and it still is, it still is ongoing.

640
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is an interesting outcome, like the increased visibility

641
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: should lead to increased accountability, but it almost just like

642
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 2: normalizes its use in a way because if like you

643
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 2: see it, no one does something about it. You see

644
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 2: it again, no one does something about it again. You

645
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,399
Speaker 2: just expect that no one will ever do something about this.

646
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 2: It's dangerous, yeah, and so tear gas. That is what

647
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 2: happened to tear gas in the nineteen sixties. It emerged

648
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 2: from this decade as a weapon that framed protesters as

649
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 2: dangerous enemies, not as citizens exercising their rights, and because

650
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 2: its use had become so normalized, alternatives like negotiation and

651
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 2: nonviolent de escalation were rarely pursued. Resources instead went into

652
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 2: producing more and more tear gas and better ways to

653
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 2: efficiently deliver it.

654
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: More tear gas weapons, more tear gas weapons.

655
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 2: With all of these resources pouring into the optimization of

656
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 2: tear gas, was there any leftover to look into its

657
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 2: helf effects? There actually was a small amount, at least

658
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,280
Speaker 2: there was research carried out in the UK, but few,

659
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 2: if any, just guess worse, Of the twenty thousand military

660
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 2: volunteers who underwent testing at the Ministry of Defenses potting

661
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 2: Down Research facility, few of these volunteers were told what

662
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 2: substances they were being exposed to, which included tear gas

663
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: but also the nerve agent serin, mustard gas and smoke bombs.

664
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, just without knowing what it is that you're

665
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 1: being exposed to cool cool, cool, and you have a

666
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: lot of control over that, I'm sure, being in the military.

667
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 2: YEP. By the nineteen seventies, with the news reports of

668
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 2: tear gas being used against protesters, a renewed call for

669
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 2: its ban was made by many countries, and so there

670
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 2: was some like anger. This did incite some like hey,

671
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,919
Speaker 2: wait a second, let's reconsider this. Yeah, but the US

672
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 2: and the UK resisted, and in February nineteen seventy British

673
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 2: Foreign Secretary Michael Stewart announced that quote CS smoke is

674
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 2: considered to be not significantly harmful to man in other

675
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 2: than a wholly exceptional circumstances, and we regard CS and

676
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 2: other such gases accordingly as being outside the scope of

677
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: the Geneva Protocol. Right, so it's just like this is

678
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:57,800
Speaker 2: our We decided, this is the truth.

679
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 1: We decided that it's fine.

680
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: It's fine.

681
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 1: So it's fine, it's fine.

682
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: It was not received well that that conclusion, that declaration

683
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 2: quite good, But then came the argument that not only

684
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 2: was tear gas not harmful, it was actually life saving,

685
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 2: because who knows how many people would have been killed

686
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 2: in protests by police if not for tear gas.

687
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: Aaron, that's the same thing all over again, the same thing.

688
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 2: The argument is still in use today, and it implies

689
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 2: that we should accept police violence as inevitable, and so

690
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 2: it's on us to choose the lesser of two evils.

691
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 2: Here you go, here are your two options. Oh, you're

692
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 2: gonna choose gun violence. No, we don't choose.

693
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 1: No, it's ridiculous. That's a ridiculous argument to make. I

694
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: know so much is ridiculous in this world, likes utterly ridiculous.

695
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 1: Those are your only two choices? A gun in your

696
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:56,879
Speaker 1: face or a tear gun? Right?

697
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 2: And it's also like, this is why I was I

698
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 2: was trying to figure out when I was looking up

699
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 2: like countries that had banned tear gas, I was trying

700
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 2: to be like, is there any data even to support

701
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 2: this argument? Yeah? And I know there's a lot of

702
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 2: other factors in terms of is there an authoritarian government,

703
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 2: how much of this would be silenced just in general,

704
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 2: any sort of state sponsored violence. But I don't, I

705
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 2: don't know. I just it's a it's a shockingly horrible argument.

706
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: It really is. Yeah.

707
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 2: But going back to the medical research on tear gas,

708
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,879
Speaker 2: what did they find. Many of the early reports, such

709
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 2: as the Hymnsworth Report, which is still referenced today, were

710
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 2: carried out in an official governmental capacity, and they were

711
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 2: largely unreliable. So, for instance, people with epilepsy who had

712
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 2: a seizure after exposure to tear gas, it was concluded

713
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 2: often that like, well, we don't really know that it

714
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 2: was tear gas. It's probably that they just forgot to

715
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: take their meds. We can't tell.

716
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: We can't tell, you can't you can't do that study, really, right,

717
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: So cool cool, cool, Yeah, sort of, that's just a

718
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:14,879
Speaker 1: little sample of that.

719
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 2: There were also there were reports like people were instructed

720
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,879
Speaker 2: to follow up on reports where people had died after

721
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 2: tear gas exposure and they found it impossible to find

722
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 2: any more information. The police were like, Nope, nothing to

723
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 2: see here, move on, there's nothing. Just don't worry about it.

724
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 2: Just we swept it under the rug, under the right. Yeah.

725
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 2: The incentives for downplaying the medical effects of tear gas

726
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 2: were just too great as a political and policing weapon.

727
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 2: It discouraged political protests or labor strikes, and it painted

728
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 2: peaceful protesters as violent dissidents. And as a product, it

729
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 2: was very lucrative. The United States exports both the substance

730
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 2: itself as well as the weapons to deploy it. So,

731
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 2: for instance, in nineteen eighty nine, the US exported six

732
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 2: and a half million dollars worth of tear gas and

733
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 2: tear gas weapons to Israel, where it was thrown into

734
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 2: Palestinian homes and hospitals and schools and mosques. But the

735
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 2: US is far from the only country to profit from

736
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 2: this weapon. I came across a new phrase in my

737
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 2: research for this, the riot control industrial complex.

738
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: Gosh very grim, very grim, grim and specific.

739
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:32,240
Speaker 2: It is an incredibly profitable international venture of which tear

740
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 2: gas is a substantial part. Tear gas is manufactured in

741
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 2: most countries in Europe. It's manufactured in Canada, Turkey, India, Pakistan, China,

742
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 2: and South Korea. That's not all, There's many more. I

743
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 2: looked up the current projections for the tear gas market,

744
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,919
Speaker 2: which was projected to be in twenty twenty six one

745
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 2: point four five billion dollars, and guess what erin It's

746
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 2: predicted to experience robust growth because of increasing civil unrest.

747
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: Are you serious? Yeah, that we have statistics like that,

748
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: and I bet the economists are like, woho, right, this

749
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:10,800
Speaker 1: sector is growing.

750
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. That's I know, dystopian isually it's the

751
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: bottom line. That's what I have written, truly dystopian.

752
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: That really is.

753
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, projected to increase because of growing civil unrest.

754
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:24,399
Speaker 1: What a great sector to be in.

755
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, Okay, We're almost done.

756
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: I'm almost done.

757
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I know, I mean. And this is

758
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 2: that's the thing is that, like the history of tear

759
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 2: gas is still being written today every single day. It

760
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 2: is an indelible mark of protests around the world, where

761
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,399
Speaker 2: it is increasingly used against people exercising their legal right

762
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:53,439
Speaker 2: to assembly. What I have presented here is far from

763
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 2: a comprehensive history of its use, which is largely as

764
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 2: a weapon of political oppression and state endorsed violence. But

765
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 2: there are glimmers of hope in this history as well.

766
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 2: Scientists who fight for objective research on the harms of

767
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: tear gas, street medics that attend protests and have extensive

768
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 2: firsthand knowledge of these chemicals and how to treat them immediately,

769
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 2: people who design better masks or treatments, to protect from

770
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 2: tear gas exposure and then make that information freely available

771
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 2: groups that disseminate this information and pave the way for

772
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:31,800
Speaker 2: collective resistance artists turning tear gas canisters into exhibits. Cities

773
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 2: like Berkeley banning the use of tear gas, which happened

774
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 2: in June twenty twenty, although they've considered rolling it back. Today,

775
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 2: with the advent of social media and basically everyone carrying

776
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 2: a camera with them at all times, the use of

777
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 2: tear gas is more publicized. Just like we talked about,

778
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 2: these images are shared and shared again around the world

779
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: and can act as powerful icons of unity or resistance,

780
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 2: and hopefully they will be used to increase accountability and

781
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 2: change things for the better. The jury is out on

782
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 2: that one. That maybe makes me a little cynical, but

783
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: I'm just like, who's ever going to be held accountable

784
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 2: for anything ever? Right now?

785
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: That's a valid question.

786
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, But at the very least, what these images

787
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: do is they serve to question the status quo, the

788
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,720
Speaker 2: normalization of tear gas, even at a legal, peaceful protest,

789
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 2: and questioning is what we should be doing. We should

790
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: be asking why the threshold for tear gas deployment is

791
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 2: so low, who is making money off of tear gas production?

792
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 2: And what harm it can cause? Most of all, though,

793
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 2: we should be questioning the reasons that we have been

794
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 2: given for why tear gas is legal in this country

795
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 2: to use against its citizens when it is outlawed in

796
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 2: international warfare. And so now, Aaron, I'll turn it over

797
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 2: to you to tell me what we know about the

798
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 2: health effects of tear gas.

799
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: Oh, let me tell you. It's a lot to cover

800
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: here erin.

801
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:10,320
Speaker 2: Oh, I know, there's.

802
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: Tear gas, like you mentioned, Aaron, it's one of several.

803
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: It's not one thing. It is one of several riot

804
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: control agents. They're called or sometimes they're called harassing agents.

805
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: There's lots of other names for them as well. And

806
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: there's several different types of chemicals that make up this

807
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: umbrella term tear gas. I'm going to mention three of

808
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: them by name, but then I am going to just

809
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:05,280
Speaker 1: kind of lump them all together because we can. Okay, Yeah,

810
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 1: So the three that are most common. One is called

811
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: cn or one chloro acida finone. It's also known as MACE.

812
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: That's brand name. It used to be probably the most

813
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 1: commonly used tear gas. But it's been largely replaced by

814
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: a newer one called CS or o chloro benz lighten

815
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: mallow nitrial molono nit trial.

816
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 2: Very impressed that you were able to get through that.

817
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: I came close. I go messed it up a little.

818
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: So the reason that CN was replaced mostly by CS

819
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 1: is because CS is far more potent, meaning at much

820
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,280
Speaker 1: lower concentrations. It has an effect.

821
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 2: We love an efficient weapon, don't we.

822
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: Don't we? Although supposedly CN was more toxic, which means

823
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 1: that someone out there admitted that CN can be toxic.

824
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 2: So I wonder if it was like the competition between

825
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 2: different tear gas companies, and they're like company, really, that's

826
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 2: the only time is when you just to make more

827
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 2: money off.

828
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 1: To make another version. In any case, mostly CN has

829
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: been kind of replaced by CS, and those are what

830
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: is most most often used when people say tear gas.

831
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: But then there's also pepper spray, which I am going

832
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 1: to lump under tear gases as well, and that is

833
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: the fancy name is ola resin, cap saysum or oc

834
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: now pepper spray. The main ingredient in pepper spray is

835
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 1: cap saysin, which comes from pepper plants. Is actually extracted

836
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 1: from pepper plants, same stuff that burns your tongue. But

837
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 1: the Skullville units on cap saysin like pepper sprays are

838
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: like up to two million. And it's not just cap sayson.

839
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 1: There's like tons of active compounds that are in a

840
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: pepper plant that make up this pepper right, And because

841
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 1: like we've learned in all of our indefensive plants crossover episodes,

842
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 1: not all plants are the same. There can be really

843
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: varying concentrations of all of the different active ingredients that

844
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,240
Speaker 1: are in pepper spray essentially.

845
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:20,439
Speaker 2: So, okay, so these are not artificially manufactured. These are

846
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 2: extra they're not synthetic. Yeah, they're not synthetic derivatives.

847
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: Yeah we do. There is a synthetic derivative version of it.

848
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 1: But these are extracted from pepper plants. They know.

849
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 2: So now you know.

850
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: But I am going to lump all of these, including

851
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: pepper spray, under this tear gas umbrella. I'll probably just

852
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 1: mostly call it tear gas or maybe riot control agents

853
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: going forward, because they do share more similarities than differences,

854
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: at least when it comes to understanding what they're doing

855
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:50,760
Speaker 1: and how they cause the symptoms that they cause.

856
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:53,439
Speaker 2: Okay, so the first thing to know.

857
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 1: And you said this already, aarin tear gas is not

858
00:51:55,800 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 1: a gas. Generally, these things are solids, and they're solid chemicals,

859
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 1: and they're put into dispersal systems, either dissolved in a

860
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 1: solvent so that you end up with a liquid formulation

861
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: that you can spray from a pressurized dispenser of some kind,

862
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: like your personal pepper sprays or like pepper guns that

863
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: are you know, spraying pepper spray liquids, or it's a

864
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: powder that's put into a delivery system that includes some

865
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 1: kind of pyrotechnic that means something like what's in a

866
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:32,240
Speaker 1: gun or a grenade, something that can cause this powder

867
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 1: to be released as a smoke or a fog.

868
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 2: You've got the tear gas substance itself, and then you've

869
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 2: got all these other things that are going into the

870
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 2: air and your lungs and your eyes, and your GI

871
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 2: tract and your respiratory tract, and you sure.

872
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 1: Do aarin and very often all of these other solvents

873
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,320
Speaker 1: and chemicals that are used as part of this mixture

874
00:52:55,760 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: are also hazardous to our health. Not to mention how

875
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 1: dangerous the projectiles are if you get hit with them,

876
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: and that happens all the time, all the right people

877
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 1: lose their eyes because they got hit in the face

878
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 1: with one of these pepper balls or gas canisters or

879
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 1: whatever it is. And no one talks about the effect

880
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,760
Speaker 1: of all of those other chemicals when they're talking about

881
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 1: the toxicities of tear gas. So just throwing that out

882
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: there or off to a horrible start, we are in general,

883
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 1: all of these chemicals produce a similar suite of symptoms.

884
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: They all work really instantaneously, so either right away or

885
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:43,800
Speaker 1: within a matter of seconds. They're causing irritation of the eyes, nose, mouth, skin,

886
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: and respiratory tract. And what this leads to is pain, itching, burning,

887
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:55,760
Speaker 1: and of course lachrymation. That's tear formation, and the amount

888
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: of tears and crying can be so severe that it

889
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 1: can result in temporary blindness because of how much tears

890
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 1: you're producing, and when we inhale it, this also irritates

891
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: our respiratory tract, which leads to coughing sometimes the sensation

892
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,280
Speaker 1: that you're choking, like you cannot get air in even

893
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 1: though like if you checked an oxygen saturation, people might

894
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:21,760
Speaker 1: be technically saturating. Well, they're getting air, but it feels

895
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: like you are choking. Yeah, right, And if the exposure

896
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 1: is large enough, it can also get into your GI

897
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 1: tract and then end up causing nausea, vomiting, even diarrhea.

898
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 1: Direct contact with the skin can result in like rashes

899
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,359
Speaker 1: and burns, which can range from pretty mild to like

900
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: significant burns with like blistering like what we would consider

901
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 1: like second degree. We don't really degrees anymore. Thickness is

902
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 1: we'll get there, okay to this season will Yeah, And

903
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 1: a lot of the literature says that most of these

904
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: symptoms will last anywhere from like twenty thirty minutes to

905
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: an hour or so, But it so depends on the

906
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 1: duration and the dose of exposure, so it's not uncommon

907
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 1: that people have much more prolonged symptoms. So we can

908
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about that in a bit,

909
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 1: But I want to tell you about how these things

910
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: are actually causing the symptoms that they're causing. Yeah, Because

911
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: even though there's a lot of different chemicals then I

912
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 1: didn't even list them all that we could consider under

913
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: this tear gas umbrella, they all share a common mechanism

914
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 1: even if the specific things they're binding to are a

915
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: little different, right, and that is that they all activate

916
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 1: what are called our no susceptors, and these are our

917
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 1: pain sensory nerves. So they are literally binding to and

918
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 1: activating nerve endings in our body that are responsible for

919
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 1: sensing pain. And if we want to get more specific,

920
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: which you know I do, pepper spray activates the same

921
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: pain sensors that are activated by eat, like touching a

922
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 1: hot pain or getting burned by your toaster oven. And

923
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,280
Speaker 1: that's why when you eat a hot pepper it feels

924
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: like your tongue is burning. Right. Yeah, CS and CN

925
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: among some of the other tear gases activate pain sensors

926
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: that are also activated by cold burns, like think liquid

927
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:20,320
Speaker 1: nitrogen burn on your skin.

928
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:26,959
Speaker 2: This is diabolical. I know the fact that like, let's

929
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 2: engineer this compound to directly target pain receptors so that

930
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 2: the sensation that you feel is overwhelming.

931
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 1: Pain, pain, burning pain, right, and I mean a cold

932
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 1: burn versus a hot burn. You can't really distinguish those, right,

933
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 1: And we have these pain receptors everywhere our skin, our eyes,

934
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 1: our mucous membranes. Pain is a signal to our brain

935
00:56:55,000 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 1: that something bad is happening. Something harmful is happening, and

936
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 1: that is why activating these receptors activates these reflex loops

937
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 1: that cause things like tearing, fluid production. We're trying to

938
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: our bodies are trying to clear away, wash away this

939
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: noxious stimulus.

940
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 2: Do whatever it takes to stop this feeling.

941
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 1: Right, and we see the release of a really wide

942
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 1: variety of neurotransmitters and other inflammatory markers that are promoting inflammation,

943
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:34,439
Speaker 1: exacerbating pain because we know that inflammation can also exacerbate pain.

944
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: We see increases in things like vascular permeability, smooth muscle contraction.

945
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 1: We see fluid production which is going to then cause

946
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 1: that coughing and difficulty breathing. Some of the things that

947
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 1: are released as part of this reflex arc are actually

948
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: directly involved, we think, in the pathogenesis of asthma, which

949
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 1: is why we can see exacerbations of asthma and other

950
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 1: respiratory conditions. WHOA. So that's that is how these things

951
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 1: are working. And while one of the hallmarks of all

952
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 1: of these tear gas agents is supposed to be that

953
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 1: they have a so called wide safety margin between what

954
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 1: is considered an incapacitating dose that's what it's called the

955
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: irritant dose or the incapacitating dose, and what would be

956
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 1: considered a lethal dose.

957
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 2: How do they determine these different the ends of the

958
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 2: spectrum here.

959
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question. So the irritant doses were

960
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 1: determined either by animal models and in some cases human studies,

961
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 1: so to see like at what dosage do people detect

962
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 1: this and can they not stand it? Have to leave

963
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 1: the room, that sort of a thing. And then the

964
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 1: lethal dose that LC fifties are all based on animal

965
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 1: studies and then you extrapolate to humans. But that does

966
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 1: not mean that there can't be more severe effects, and

967
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: the idea that these are completely benign not quote unquote harmful,

968
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 1: is factually incorrect. In our eyes, these agents can cause

969
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 1: significant swelling what's called corneal edema that most of the

970
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 1: time gets better with time, but in some cases can

971
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 1: be much more severe, lead to ulceration and scarring and

972
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: eventually essentially cataract formation and blindness. And especially in people

973
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 1: who wear contacts, that's an especially big risk because the

974
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 1: contacts can trap these chemicals on your eyes for longer,

975
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 1: which can then just lead to prolonged exposure and more

976
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 1: damage to the eye. On the skin, I already said,

977
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 1: we can sometimes have really severe burns, like blistering and

978
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 1: really severe rashes. It's also thought that there's like a

979
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 1: sensitization like allergy type component, so if you're exposed once,

980
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 1: you might have an even worse reaction on any subsequent encounters.

981
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 2: Okay, And that is for like any of the symptoms,

982
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 2: whether it's respiratory, skin, anything.

983
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 1: That's more specific for skin. But in theory, yes, could

984
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: happen to any but we see it. It's more visible

985
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 1: on the skin, I think with the severity of rashes. Okay,

986
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 1: But the most common severe reactions to tear gas is

987
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 1: in the respiratory system because if you think of it,

988
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 1: what tear gas is doing, like if you think what

989
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 1: it's doing to your eyes right where it's causing this

990
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:33,040
Speaker 1: intense degree of tear and fluid formation. If it does

991
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 1: that in our lungs, it's causing this intense inflammatory response

992
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 1: a lot of fluid production, and fluid in our lungs

993
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 1: is incredibly dangerous. There's nowhere for it to go. So

994
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 1: this can cause something called pulmonary edema, and that can

995
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 1: and has been fatal in cases.

996
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 2: But it's harmless, it's humane.

997
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 1: It's harmless, it's humane. It's also been shown that it

998
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 1: can put people at risk for secondary infection. Some people

999
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 1: who have asthma or COPD or other respiratory diseases. We

1000
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:09,520
Speaker 1: see that can trigger exacerbations of those diseases. And there's

1001
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 1: other like that that is not all of it. There

1002
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 1: have been some case reports of miscarriage associated with tear

1003
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 1: gas exposure, and there is other literature that suggests there

1004
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:22,560
Speaker 1: is not risk to pregnancy. So it's a little bit

1005
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 1: like the data is not entirely clear, but I will

1006
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: say there's a lot of survey studies that report disruption

1007
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 1: in people's menstrual cycles after exposure. What exactly is the

1008
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 1: cause of that, we don't really know. But the other

1009
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 1: thing that's often overlooked in descriptions of the symptoms of

1010
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 1: tear gas exposure is the intense psychological pressure that these

1011
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 1: chemicals put onto people. Huge, huge, right, the intense amount

1012
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 1: of discomfort that these cause because they are literally triggering

1013
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 1: your pain receptors, but in combination with the stress of

1014
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 1: the suit situations that they're used in, this can cause

1015
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 1: a huge amount of anxiety, which can increase your blood

1016
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 1: pressure leading to other complications and putting people at risk

1017
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 1: for things like depression, anxiety, and PTSD after the fact.

1018
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 1: So it's like, these agents are not benign and I'm

1019
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 1: not even done.

1020
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 2: The impact is not even like there are people who

1021
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 2: are more susceptible and people who are who yeah I

1022
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 2: have I tend to experience more severe outcomes.

1023
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 1: Exposure one hundred percent children and elderly. Yeah, children, the elderly.

1024
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 1: Because that's the thing about the safety studies that we

1025
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 1: do have, because it's not like we have no data, right,

1026
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 1: we have some data on this, but the vast majority

1027
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 1: of these safety studies are either in animal studies, which

1028
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 1: is just like to determine dosages, et cetera. Or they

1029
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 1: were done in young, healthy military recruits, most of whom

1030
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 1: were white males. And again this is mostly just to

1031
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 1: determine like irritant thresholds. And there's very little data that

1032
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 1: we have on long term exposures. We have some data

1033
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,920
Speaker 1: on like repeat exposures or like different durations of exposures,

1034
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,480
Speaker 1: but not much. And so what all of the data

1035
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,919
Speaker 1: that we have and what the like you know, thresholds

1036
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 1: or like what is considered safe and things like that

1037
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 1: what these short term studies don't take into account are

1038
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:21,280
Speaker 1: all of the conditions under which someone might be exposed

1039
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: and the characteristics, like you said, of the people being exposed. Yeah,

1040
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 1: so if you have asthma or COPD or any other

1041
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 1: chronic lung condition, you are at higher risk of injury

1042
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 1: if you are a child. Kids have a completely different

1043
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:40,880
Speaker 1: surface area to volume ratio than adults. Kids also breathe

1044
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 1: more than twice as much air per minute than adults do.

1045
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 2: Wild I had no idea, and it makes sense, but

1046
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 2: I just didn't think.

1047
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 1: Because they're bathing much faster. Their faces also sit lower

1048
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 1: to the ground because they are small, and these chemicals

1049
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 1: are heavier than air, they are not actually gases, and

1050
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 1: so their faces are being exposed to more of these chemicals.

1051
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 1: So they have a much higher risk of exposure and

1052
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 1: toxicity from exposure to these chemicals. And we are not

1053
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 1: studying these on children. If you're a very old person,

1054
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 1: or if these chemicals are being deployed in confined spaces

1055
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 1: with no ventilation, if you were in contact lenses. The

1056
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 1: effects of these chemicals is also amplified by certain conditions

1057
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 1: like high heat or high humidity. So the situation in

1058
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 1: which you're exposed as well as your individual characteristics are

1059
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 1: also going to affect the severity of your symptoms. And

1060
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 1: none of this is being studied in all of the

1061
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 1: data that we have, so to say that there's no

1062
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 1: long term effects, like, we don't really have data to

1063
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 1: show that there's no long term effects of these.

1064
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,919
Speaker 2: I have to wonder about the research incentives too. Who

1065
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 2: is there funding to do studies on this? Who's funding it?

1066
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 1: And yeah, exactly, these are the great questions, right. There

1067
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 1: are some studies that have been done, like there was

1068
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,320
Speaker 1: one out of Turkey that looked at people who had

1069
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 1: been repeatedly exposed to tear gases that did find higher

1070
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 1: rates of chronic respiratory illness things like COPD or asthma

1071
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:18,920
Speaker 1: developing after repeated exposure. But again these are like, these

1072
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 1: studies are few and far between. There are some animal

1073
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:26,120
Speaker 1: studies that point to potential carcinogenicity or things on some

1074
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 1: of these chemicals, but not all of them.

1075
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 2: Right then that's a whole separate dimension. Is like the

1076
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 2: different types of.

1077
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 1: Chemicals yep, and the exposure and the exact level and

1078
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 1: for how long, Like there's so many variables and we

1079
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: just we don't understand. And the thing is that these

1080
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 1: are being used in completely uncontrolled situations. Right. First of all,

1081
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 1: there are no federal regulations on the use of these chemicals,

1082
01:05:57,680 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: like there are none.

1083
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of what federal regulations would look

1084
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 2: like for this.

1085
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 1: It's a great question. I don't know, and it's but

1086
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:12,480
Speaker 1: it's not, which also means like the use of these

1087
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 1: is not reported, et cetera. Like there is a lot

1088
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:18,360
Speaker 1: that goes into that, but there's not like there is

1089
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 1: an up.

1090
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 2: That's you should what okay, okay, just keep going to.

1091
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 1: And I mean maybe it is on a local level.

1092
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know where you get that

1093
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:31,960
Speaker 1: information from. The EPA has like an exposure an acute

1094
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 1: exposure guideline only for one of the tear gases, and

1095
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 1: that is CS. But it's not a regulation on its use,

1096
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:40,600
Speaker 1: like you can't use this much of it in an

1097
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:44,439
Speaker 1: environment or anything like that. It is guidance on how

1098
01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 1: much is likely to cause an effect for emergency responders

1099
01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:50,200
Speaker 1: to be aware of if they are exposed during the

1100
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 1: course of duty. That's the only like federal level regulation

1101
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 1: that exists in all of the reading that I did

1102
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:00,680
Speaker 1: about any of these. And the thing is that it's

1103
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:05,640
Speaker 1: not just the United States tear gases. All of the

1104
01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:07,920
Speaker 1: ones that we talked about and so many more are

1105
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 1: used primarily by governments against their own citizens for so

1106
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 1: called crowd control across the entire globe. There's a couple

1107
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 1: of really great and by great, I mean horrific maps

1108
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 1: that Amnesty International put together. One that is Amnesty International

1109
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:28,000
Speaker 1: US that's just looking at places where tear gas was

1110
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:32,080
Speaker 1: used against peaceful protesters, and not just tear gas, it's

1111
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 1: other quote unquote less lethal forms of crowd control in

1112
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 1: the US in just twenty twenty during Black Lives Matter protests.

1113
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:42,720
Speaker 1: And then there's another map that they put together that's

1114
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 1: like five hundred instances of tear gas and other weapons

1115
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:52,640
Speaker 1: less lethal weapons being used against protesters for no reason,

1116
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 1: no reason right there.

1117
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 2: I'm sure that a reason exists. Say whether it's very

1118
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:04,240
Speaker 2: acceptable or logical or humane region reason is up for

1119
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:05,600
Speaker 2: debate exactly.

1120
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 1: But they documented this across like thirty one different countries,

1121
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 1: and that's just based on their reporting. Like I think,

1122
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 1: like we've talked about, it's harder to find places where

1123
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:17,600
Speaker 1: this is not allowed to be used than trying to

1124
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:20,840
Speaker 1: figure out where it is used. And it's not just governments.

1125
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 1: Tear gas is also used as an agent of terror,

1126
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:26,840
Speaker 1: And there was a paper that I found from twenty

1127
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 1: twenty that in the cases they were able to identify

1128
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 1: what agent was used. Tear gas was used in twenty

1129
01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:38,080
Speaker 1: one percent of chemical attacks. So it's like it's accessible,

1130
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:40,200
Speaker 1: and it is used across the globe.

1131
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:44,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, accessible, and yeah you can just oh my god, Okay,

1132
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:45,800
Speaker 2: And like.

1133
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:48,280
Speaker 1: We kind of already talked about, I think that being

1134
01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 1: able to witness the use of this so much over

1135
01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:55,479
Speaker 1: the last few years, because of our smartphones and because

1136
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 1: of our access to being able to video what is

1137
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:03,799
Speaker 1: actually going on, we can see with our own eyes

1138
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:07,519
Speaker 1: the circumstances under which these weapons are being deployed against

1139
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:11,799
Speaker 1: peaceful protesters, against people trying to get aid from aid trucks,

1140
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:15,559
Speaker 1: against like human beings. And I think it makes it

1141
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:20,599
Speaker 1: a lot harder to spin this narrative that protests are

1142
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:23,639
Speaker 1: violent and it is required that we use this kind

1143
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:26,439
Speaker 1: of force. It doesn't mean that the propaganda machine isn't

1144
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 1: propaganda ing.

1145
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:30,040
Speaker 2: But I was gonna say, yeah, like the narrative will

1146
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 2: be spun no matter what it's just exactly endless vomit

1147
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:41,680
Speaker 2: of complete nonsense, but harmful, malicious nonsense, exactly.

1148
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:45,920
Speaker 1: And I think everyone knows at this point unless it's

1149
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:47,479
Speaker 1: your first time tuning in. This is not a medical

1150
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 1: advice podcast, and so I'm not going to give you

1151
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:51,360
Speaker 1: medical advice, but.

1152
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:52,960
Speaker 2: You are going to tell us.

1153
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:56,800
Speaker 1: I am going to tell you about Yeah, there are

1154
01:09:56,840 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 1: no treatments, yeah we have I have no specific therapeutics.

1155
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 1: There are people who are like, we need to develop therapeutics.

1156
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:06,599
Speaker 1: Because there's also a whole discussion to be had about

1157
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:10,679
Speaker 1: how much medical professionals do not know about tear gases,

1158
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:13,680
Speaker 1: in part because when someone's exposed at a protest, we

1159
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 1: have no way of knowing what they're exposed to. Right,

1160
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:17,960
Speaker 1: It's not like the police are like, hey, guys, just

1161
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:19,719
Speaker 1: so you know today we're using pepper balls.

1162
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, everyone okay with that? Great?

1163
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:25,400
Speaker 1: Yeah right, no, so, and so it's really it's hard

1164
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:27,600
Speaker 1: to know like what people are even exposed to. But

1165
01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 1: all that said, there's also not as much data as

1166
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:34,680
Speaker 1: there should be on the best ways to decontaminate. But

1167
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:38,200
Speaker 1: many people listening might be going to protests and engaging

1168
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:40,360
Speaker 1: in lawful protests. And be exposed to these agents because

1169
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:44,560
Speaker 1: they're being used so frequently, so frequently so. Physicians for

1170
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:46,880
Speaker 1: Human Rights is one organization that I know of that

1171
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 1: has some really great like infographics and information sheets on

1172
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:55,240
Speaker 1: ways to protect yourself as a protester, which includes preventing

1173
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:58,720
Speaker 1: exposure to tear gas by having things like face masks

1174
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:02,400
Speaker 1: to cover your respiratory tre act goggles or glasses or

1175
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:06,160
Speaker 1: something to protect your eyes, ideally not wearing contact lenses

1176
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:09,879
Speaker 1: to avoid chemicals getting trapped under your contacts, long sleeves

1177
01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:15,480
Speaker 1: and gloves to prevent skin contact. And then once exposure happens,

1178
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 1: the general recommendation is that anyone who's small, like kids

1179
01:11:21,320 --> 01:11:24,240
Speaker 1: or things like that should be lifted to higher ground

1180
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:28,640
Speaker 1: in order to reduce exposure. Getting out of exposure as

1181
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:32,920
Speaker 1: quickly as possible is important, and then removing all contaminated

1182
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:36,360
Speaker 1: clothing as soon as you can after exposure. And then

1183
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:39,200
Speaker 1: for direct contact with eyes or mucus membranes, the best

1184
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:42,280
Speaker 1: recommendation is just to rinse it profusely for like ten

1185
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 1: to fifteen minutes with plain water if you have it,

1186
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,839
Speaker 1: but salty water if that's available, so like saline solutions

1187
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:53,479
Speaker 1: or some people recommend like a dilute soapy solution with

1188
01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:56,240
Speaker 1: something like a very gentle baby soap or something, because

1189
01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:59,000
Speaker 1: that can help to like bind to and wash away

1190
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:02,719
Speaker 1: any other chemicals that are there. But that's not based

1191
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:04,800
Speaker 1: on that grade of data. But that's kind of the

1192
01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:06,240
Speaker 1: best that we have right now.

1193
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:10,840
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, so it is. That's such a that's such

1194
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 2: a terrifying point about like we don't know what you're

1195
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 2: being sprayed with, so it could be their treatment might

1196
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:21,360
Speaker 2: not be. That's I know, it's just a knives home

1197
01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:24,120
Speaker 2: yet another horrific point in all of this.

1198
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:26,320
Speaker 1: And there's now like there's so many some of the

1199
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:28,000
Speaker 1: a lot of the pepper balls that they're using in

1200
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:30,519
Speaker 1: the US today are mixtures and so they have both

1201
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:33,280
Speaker 1: CS and pepper spray in them, and then of course

1202
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:37,080
Speaker 1: they're fired from a projectile which can cause damage as well. Yeah.

1203
01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:40,520
Speaker 1: So yeah, no, it's really it's really truly horrific. Yeah,

1204
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:43,120
Speaker 1: it's really awful. And that is tear.

1205
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:53,320
Speaker 2: Gas sources sources. I have a bunch of different sources

1206
01:12:53,360 --> 01:12:55,679
Speaker 2: I'm gonna shout out too. In particular, one I already

1207
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:59,719
Speaker 2: mentioned during the episode itself tear gas by Anna Fagan

1208
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 2: bom really great overview of the entire history of tear gas.

1209
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:07,280
Speaker 2: I think it's a great place to start, actually start

1210
01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 2: and end. There's a lot more out there, but there

1211
01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:13,200
Speaker 2: is also so much packed into that. And then also

1212
01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:15,600
Speaker 2: I found a paper from nineteen eighty nine that was

1213
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:20,679
Speaker 2: quite interesting called tear Gas Harassing Agent or Toxic Chemical

1214
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:23,439
Speaker 2: Weapon and that was by you at all and it's

1215
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 2: published in jama But there's more one that I have, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1216
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:29,519
Speaker 1: I also had quite a number of papers for this,

1217
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:33,200
Speaker 1: but a couple that I think were really good overviews

1218
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:35,880
Speaker 1: and things. One was by Brown at all from twenty

1219
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:39,720
Speaker 1: twenty one titled Reevaluating tear Gas Toxicity and Safety from

1220
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:43,720
Speaker 1: the Journal Inhalationian Toxicology, and then another by Rothenberg at

1221
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:47,680
Speaker 1: All from twenty sixteen called tear Gas and Epidemiological and

1222
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:50,120
Speaker 1: Mechanistic Reassessment, and that was from the Annals of the

1223
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:52,679
Speaker 1: New York Academy of Sciences. But there was a bunch more,

1224
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:55,320
Speaker 1: including I will make sure to post those links to

1225
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:58,200
Speaker 1: the two Amnesty International maps that I mentioned. And then

1226
01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:00,839
Speaker 1: I also have a few in addition to journal articles,

1227
01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:03,960
Speaker 1: just a few like news articles and things about recent

1228
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:06,960
Speaker 1: uses of to your guests in the US and abroad,

1229
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:09,679
Speaker 1: so you can find all of that on our website,

1230
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:12,000
Speaker 1: This podcast will Kill You dot Com under the episode

1231
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:12,760
Speaker 1: step you can.

1232
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 2: You can also find links to Bloodmobile, who thank you.

1233
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:18,800
Speaker 2: Bloodmobile provide the music for this episode in all of

1234
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:19,560
Speaker 2: our episodes.

1235
01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:21,840
Speaker 1: Thank you for doing that. We so appreciate it.

1236
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:22,760
Speaker 3: We do.

1237
01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:26,880
Speaker 1: Thank you also to everyone at Exactly Right, especially Leana

1238
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:30,320
Speaker 1: and Tom and Pete and Mark and Jess and everyone.

1239
01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:33,040
Speaker 2: Else, everyone, everyone, And thank you to you, Yes we do.

1240
01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:37,400
Speaker 2: And thank you to you listeners. You are the reason

1241
01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:39,439
Speaker 2: we do this. So thank you for tuning in.

1242
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:43,400
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and especially a shout out to our patrons.

1243
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:45,759
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your support over on Patreon.

1244
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:46,960
Speaker 1: It really does mean the world to us.

1245
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:51,320
Speaker 2: It does, It does, And until next time, wash your hands.

1246
01:14:51,240 --> 01:15:09,440
Speaker 1: You feel the animals. Bum bumba, bumb

1247
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:13,400
Speaker 2: Bumbu.