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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, I hope the summer is

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Speaker 1: treating you well and that you're taking some time off

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Speaker 1: to rest and recover. I've been on a bit of

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Speaker 1: a vaca myself, but the team and I will soon

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Speaker 1: be back at work preparing the next season of this show.

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Speaker 1: We'll be sending you back to school Happiness Lab style

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Speaker 1: as I review some of the must read psychology books

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Speaker 1: of the year. So stay tuned for lots of well

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Speaker 1: being wisdom coming your way this September. But I won't

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Speaker 1: be abandoning you until then. Over the next few weeks,

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Speaker 1: I'll be sharing some episodes from other podcasts, and the

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Speaker 1: common thread is that I appear as a guest in

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Speaker 1: all of them. First on the list, The Daily Stoic,

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Speaker 1: Brian Holiday's hit show is all about what the ancient

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Speaker 1: Stoic philosophers can teach us about living better today. I

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Speaker 1: was invited on the show to talk about death, but

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Speaker 1: don't let that topic scare you, because, as you'll hear,

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Speaker 1: my conversation with was actually kind of fun. If you

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Speaker 1: like what you hear, you should check out The Daily

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Speaker 1: Stowing wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Hey, it's Ryan Welcome. To another episode of the Daily

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Speaker 2: Stoic podcast. I was swimming in Barton Springs yesterday and

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Speaker 2: I'm swimming I kind of see this movement. It's like

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Speaker 2: a weird thing with Barton Springs where you know there's

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Speaker 2: like huge fish in there, and you know there's turtles.

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Speaker 2: You don't see them as much, not as much as

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Speaker 2: like Balmore or whatever. But I see this sort of

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Speaker 2: soft shelled turtle just start to head up to the

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Speaker 2: surface and then just like takes off like a rocket,

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Speaker 2: just and it it almost hits me. It was dodging turtles,

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Speaker 2: surfacing turtles from the depths of Barton Springs, and I

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Speaker 2: just I was like, ah, man, life is absurd and

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Speaker 2: life is good even just like the light in the

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Speaker 2: pool was amazing where you could actually see everything because

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Speaker 2: it's brighter in the mornings. I don't know, it's just

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Speaker 2: a great day. And so I'm excited to tell you

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Speaker 2: about today's episode. Actually this goes back a couple months now.

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Speaker 2: My research assistant Billy Oppenheimer, who you've heard me talk

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Speaker 2: about before. Many of you get his Sunday newsletter, which

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Speaker 2: I highly recommend. You can find that at Billy Oppenheimer

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Speaker 2: dot com. He is working on a book, which I'm

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Speaker 2: very excited about. I'm sure he'll be on the podcast

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Speaker 2: when that eventually comes out, though he has not sent

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Speaker 2: me a copy of it. And I'm saying this here

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Speaker 2: on the episode to jostle him a little bit so

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Speaker 2: he'll finish it up and get it into the publisher.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 2: But anyways, Billy sent me a clip. He's like, hey,

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Speaker 2: did you see this? And it was a clip of

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Speaker 2: the Human Lab podcast where this woman, doctor Lori Santos,

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Speaker 2: is talking about Memento mori. And I was like, oh wow,

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Speaker 2: that's so cool, and let me actually play the clip, professt.

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Speaker 1: It's useful to remember, like, you know, this is limited, right,

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Speaker 1: this is temporary. I should enjoy this now while it's happening.

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Speaker 1: The most extreme version of this, of course, is with

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Speaker 1: our own lives, right, contemplating our mortality. There's this idea

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Speaker 1: of to Maury, which is a common phrase, actually have

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Speaker 1: my ring has Memento mori on it, which is morbid. Right,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to die, I'm not going to be here.

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Speaker 1: But when you recognize that, you know the old school

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Speaker 1: folks thought, and I think it's true, Like you realize,

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Speaker 1: like I can't take any of this stuff for granted.

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Speaker 1: I have to pay attention now. This is not, you know,

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Speaker 1: the kind of thing that's going to last forever.

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Speaker 2: And then so we reached out and we found out

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Speaker 2: that doctor Santos would be in Austin for south By

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Speaker 2: Southwest and she came to the studio. I was like, Hey,

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Speaker 2: what are you in town for south By? This is

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Speaker 2: when she shows up and she's like, oh, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 2: here at south By to interview Michelle Obama. And I

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Speaker 2: was like, what that. Okay, that's a pretty good reason

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Speaker 2: to come to town. Not what I would have expected

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Speaker 2: to bring someone to Central Texas, but here we are,

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Speaker 2: and it does make sense. Doctor Santos is an expert

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Speaker 2: on happiness. Her Yale course, The Psychology and the Good Life,

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Speaker 2: teaches students how the science of psychology can make you

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Speaker 2: happier and live a more fulfilling life. They've told me

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Speaker 2: the most popular class in Yale history, and Yale has

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Speaker 2: a pretty decent history. I mean, it is three hundred

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Speaker 2: years old. So to have the most popular class at

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Speaker 2: one of the most prestigious universities in the world is

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Speaker 2: a pretty incredible accomplishment. And you know it makes me

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Speaker 2: think like I was introduced to the Stoics while I

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Speaker 2: was in a class in college called Aristotle and the

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Speaker 2: Meaning of Life. So you know, I just love that

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Speaker 2: this stuff is so popular, and I love that she

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Speaker 2: is bringing the Stoics into her courses. She is, as

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Speaker 2: you will see in this episode, very well versed in

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Speaker 2: the Stoics. We share a lot of ideas and strategies

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Speaker 2: that we both try to apply in our personal life.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I just I really like this interview. It

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Speaker 2: was really exciting. Her work is, of course, incredibly popular.

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Speaker 2: You've seen it all over the world. She has an

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Speaker 2: online version of the class called The Science of well

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Speaker 2: Being on Cours Sera, which has had more than four

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Speaker 2: million students go through it. Her podcast, The Happiness Lab,

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Speaker 2: where she interviews people like Michelle Obama, is one of

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Speaker 2: the most popular podcasts anywhere they are a podcasts. So

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Speaker 2: it's all very impressive. You can check out her work

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Speaker 2: at doctor Lorisantos dot com. You can follow her on Instagram.

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Speaker 2: I will link to that. You can follow her on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: She has a YouTube channel and a TikTok channel. I

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Speaker 2: will link to all of this. Anyways, I was just

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Speaker 2: thinking this is a good life. Man Dodge and Turtles

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Speaker 2: in Barton Springs. Dropped my kid off from school, went swimming,

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Speaker 2: then I picked him up with went on a field trip.

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Speaker 2: I just I get to do this. This is what

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Speaker 2: my life is. It's always perfect. There was traffic, there's this,

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Speaker 2: you know, but like, by and large, this is what

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Speaker 2: the good life is. Stressful couple weeks for me, but

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Speaker 2: I don't know, more good than bad. And that's I

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Speaker 2: think basically what we're going to talk about in today's episode,

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Speaker 2: which I'm excited to bring to you. Now.

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Speaker 1: This is my favorite thing in the live studio podcast

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Speaker 1: is like, tell me your table story.

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Speaker 2: Well, okrarect, this is Joan Didon's table. Oh my god,

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Speaker 2: that's a really good name.

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Speaker 1: All right. You in.

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Speaker 2: People are like it's kind of a weird table, but

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Speaker 2: it's like I bought it this auction and these are

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Speaker 2: these this was like a dining room table Joan Didion's house. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and that cool.

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Speaker 1: That's super cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Normally I'm not like a coaster person. I'm like

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Speaker 2: no stress. I'm like no, no, yeah. And then sometimes

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Speaker 2: I'll go like, oh, you can just put that down there,

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Speaker 2: and then they'll think it's like a suggestion get it table.

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Speaker 2: I think at some point I'll probably because it's I

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Speaker 2: mean at the table had history before, but now all

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Speaker 2: these people have sat at it. Yeah yeah yeah, Like

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Speaker 2: I thought it was a charity thing and so I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, but maybe I could just we donate

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Speaker 2: it like ten years from now all these other people

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Speaker 2: have sat at the table and then all.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Joan would be happy you bring all.

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Speaker 2: Maybe she seemed pretty judgmental.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's true. She'd probably just like anything.

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Speaker 2: So and like everything. She's like this tiny lady, you know,

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Speaker 2: so like sometimes like like we have like an athlete

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Speaker 2: coming in soon, and I'm like, I don't know, we

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Speaker 2: might have to get a different chairs. This is me

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Speaker 2: ye small person. Well thank you for coming.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks so much. I've been a fan for a while.

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Speaker 1: So really I was when I got this and I

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Speaker 1: was like, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well I thought you might have your memento Mori ring off.

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Speaker 1: I took it off to travel because I'm scared I'm

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Speaker 1: going to lose it, so, which is dumb. I also

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Speaker 1: have another second arrow, so it's an arrow. So that's

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Speaker 1: my Buddhist one, my mentor more I want and a

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Speaker 1: Buddhist one.

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Speaker 2: Well, tell me the story on both. Well, ye, memento more,

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Speaker 2: remember you will die? Why is that something you want

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Speaker 2: to wear on your person?

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Speaker 1: Because it's nice to remember that you're going to die, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean no, seriously, I mean I think it like

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Speaker 1: causes you to live better. And there's research showing this too, right,

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Speaker 1: that fast forwarding to your death, this idea of death awareness,

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Speaker 1: noticing that things might go away soon, you wind up

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Speaker 1: like enjoying things more. Whether it's like a local thing

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Speaker 1: like they do this with like college seniors who are

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Speaker 1: about to graduate and just notice, hey, you're going to

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Speaker 1: graduate really soon. They spend their time differently when you

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Speaker 1: remind them. Really, but I think for bigger things for

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Speaker 1: life too. This is like, I mean, this is what

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Speaker 1: the Stoics were on top of, like before anybody did

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Speaker 1: these social science studies about this stuff.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, isn't it interesting how much social science studies

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Speaker 2: confirm just hypotheses or arguments from ancient philosophy that they

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Speaker 2: were just making up two thousand years ago.

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Speaker 1: And even still, Like I have a colleague, Hetty Kober,

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Speaker 1: who studies meditation and a lot of kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: ancient practice from Buddhist and I was like, you need

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Speaker 1: to go do stoicism. So she's doing a negative visualization. Oh,

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Speaker 1: studies now to try to see if that also can

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Speaker 1: Like she just studies like craving and these kinds of things.

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Speaker 1: Can it reduce craving? Can it can make me feel better?

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Speaker 1: And so on? But I'm like, still new insights from

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Speaker 1: them are coming in.

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Speaker 2: And so do you just kind of fiddle with the

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Speaker 2: ring and idea?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And the reason I don't take it to podcasts

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Speaker 1: is I with whack it, you know out, Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: notice it every once in a while and then you

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Speaker 1: this is another one I got. She just came from

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Speaker 1: Arthur Brooks, so I know you had in your show.

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Speaker 2: I think he was wearing a very similar Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So his work with the Dalai Lama. He hangs out

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Speaker 1: with these monks.

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Speaker 2: Who did you go on that trip?

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Speaker 1: I did not. I had a wedding and I was like,

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Speaker 1: can you move the wedding? But I met one of

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Speaker 1: my who's there and because of the work, they gave

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Speaker 1: me this and so it's, you know, blessed by a

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Speaker 1: Dalai Lama, and it's meant to remind you that you're

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Speaker 1: on the path to being a body sofa, And it

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Speaker 1: is true that I'll be like like literally today driving

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Speaker 1: over here, trying to get out of the main part

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Speaker 1: of Austin City, and I looked at it. It was

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Speaker 1: about to road rage and I was like, no, I

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Speaker 1: want a path to being a body safah control over this.

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, so the reminders help.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't know if people agree. People find

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Speaker 2: momentum more a morbid, people find it disconcerting, depressing. There's

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Speaker 2: a reason that people don't do it. They don't want

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Speaker 2: to think about it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's disturbing. I mean, I think it's partly the

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Speaker 1: disturbingness that makes it so powerful. Yes, right, It makes

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Speaker 1: me a little want to like vomit in my mouth

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Speaker 1: every time I think about it, But it also makes

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Speaker 1: me want to put my phone away and notice the

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Speaker 1: things around me and have a conversation with someone. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it works because it's really discombobulating and you.

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Speaker 2: Can get desensitized to it itself a little bit. And

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Speaker 2: what I think is interesting which has never been desensitized

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Speaker 2: for me, is the one that marks it talks about

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Speaker 2: in meditations, which is cribbing from epictitis. He says, as

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Speaker 2: you tuck your child in at night, say to yourself,

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Speaker 2: they will not make it till the morning. Yes, so

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Speaker 2: there's something about momental money for yourself. You just be like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: of course I'm gonna die. I always knew this, hopefully.

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Speaker 2: But it's when if you have to meditate on losing

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Speaker 2: someone or something so precious to you, you never become

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Speaker 2: desensitized to that. It is always a very powerful, sobering,

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Speaker 2: humbling and a little bit terrifying thought to run through

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Speaker 2: your mind. And there's something about the human mind that

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Speaker 2: doesn't want to consider it precisely because of all those things.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, But what's amazing about the human mind

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Speaker 1: is that you can just instantly switch your reference point

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Speaker 1: with a little bit of imagination, right, And I think

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Speaker 1: this was one of the stoic insights, like if you

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Speaker 1: actually have a bad thing happened to you that changes

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Speaker 1: your reference point, Like I actually lose my phone, like

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Speaker 1: while in this trip, Oh my god, this is a

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Speaker 1: pain in the ba I gotta get I never realized

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Speaker 1: how much I appreciated my phone. But I get a

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Speaker 1: new phone. It's like a phone, it's so useful. I

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Speaker 1: can look at the map and so on. Yes, But

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Speaker 1: what's amazing is we don't actually have to go through

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Speaker 1: the actual terrible thing. We can just simulate it very briefly.

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Speaker 1: And this is I think Marcus Early is insight right,

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Speaker 1: Like every morning you should wake up and think, I

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Speaker 1: might you know, get shunned, I might lose my job,

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Speaker 1: I might lose my legs, won't work and stuff. And

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Speaker 1: I think that that's amazing that we have the power

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Speaker 1: to do that. Then we don't actually have to face

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Speaker 1: the real consequences, but we can psychologically reset our reference point.

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Speaker 1: It's such a good hack.

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Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting is we use our imagination in a

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Speaker 2: way that's not helpful all the time totally. So we

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Speaker 2: imagine a bunch of extremely unlikely, you know, fake things.

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Speaker 2: We're ruminating on stuff that nobody's thinking about, and we're

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Speaker 2: torturing ourselves with our imagination instead of using our imagination

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Speaker 2: to prepare for things. Like oftentimes, if you act like that,

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Speaker 2: if you just kind of have this vague imagining of

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Speaker 2: a terrible thing, you feel unpleasant. But if you can

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Speaker 2: get specifically, then you what would I do. Here's what

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Speaker 2: my plan. Actually it has the exact opposite effect, So

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Speaker 2: it's you sort of decide how you're going to use

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Speaker 2: your imagination.

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Speaker 1: And this is a critique that I sometimes get from

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Speaker 1: my students, So I shiok talk about these negative visualization

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Speaker 1: psychology studies and my happiness class, and I'll always give

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Speaker 1: you a whose days after class. And it's like, but wait,

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Speaker 1: isn't rumination terrible? Isn't that like the worst symptom of

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Speaker 1: you know, depressive episodes? And I'm like, Marcus Aurelius didn't say,

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Speaker 1: like do that fourteen hours a day. He said like

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Speaker 1: first ten minutes right before the world all you know,

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Speaker 1: like do that quickly and then recognize that that's not true,

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Speaker 1: appreciate and move on. And I think that's where we

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Speaker 1: get stuck, right, is that we have to know the

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Speaker 1: dosage of some of these practices, and that can get

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Speaker 1: a little tricky, including memento may right, a terrible health

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Speaker 1: anxious paranoia that you're going to die is not awesome.

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Speaker 2: Right, Hypochondria is not the supposed to be the result.

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Speaker 1: Correct. I think the Stoics were good about giving us

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Speaker 1: that sort of dosage, but in practice, that's that's where

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Speaker 1: the rubber.

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Speaker 2: Meus software SINA is like the right amount, yes, right,

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Speaker 2: like no the ability to discern this is also it's

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Speaker 2: interesting that the line between like where is sort of temperance,

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Speaker 2: where's wisdom? But they're the same, that they're related. It's like,

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Speaker 2: what is the golden mean of this exercise, this truth,

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Speaker 2: this idea? Because when you hear Seneca, on the one hand, say,

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Speaker 2: you know, we suffer more in imagination than in reality,

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Speaker 2: and then he also says he suffers before it is necessary,

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Speaker 2: suffers more than is necessary. He says, like the unexpected

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Speaker 2: blowlands heaviest. And then he's also saying like, don't torture

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Speaker 2: yourself with every possible thing that could happen. People feel

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Speaker 2: like that's a contradiction, and I think oftentimes that is

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Speaker 2: a critique of the Stoics, that they contradict each other

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Speaker 2: when they're actually saying is not too much over here

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Speaker 2: and not too little over here, get the right amount.

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Speaker 2: Even on something like hey, am I prepared for things

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Speaker 2: to not go my way? Is very different than ruminating

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Speaker 2: on how they're never going to go your.

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Speaker 1: Way exactly exactly. And I think, you know, if this

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Speaker 1: is I love the Stoics, but I also like bringing

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Speaker 1: in these other kinds of traditions to you, right like

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Speaker 1: if you look to Aristotle, this was something that Aristotle

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Speaker 1: was really worried about, the kind of right amount. Like

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Speaker 1: virtue isn't one thing or the other. It's not kind

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Speaker 1: of bravery or cowardice. It's this lovely sweet spot in

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Speaker 1: the middle. And so yeah, so I think the right

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Speaker 1: amount is something that we should be thinking about a lot.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's the problem with the word temperance is that

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Speaker 2: temperance in America, not even in English, but the temperance

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Speaker 2: movement became the abstinence movement exactly. I mean none not

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Speaker 2: What is the right amount? What is a moderate, safe,

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Speaker 2: reasonable amount? And that's a hard look, there's something there.

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Speaker 2: It's not at all. Some things you should definitely not do.

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Speaker 2: There's probably not a moderate amount of heroin that you

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Speaker 2: should be doing, yeah, but or a fentanyl or something.

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Speaker 2: But there are other things that if you can do

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Speaker 2: them in moderation, it's solely fine. And I think ruminating

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Speaker 2: is probably one of those things, because there's a fine

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Speaker 2: line between ruminating and being ignorant.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think you know, one of the things

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Speaker 1: I think the Stoics would say is that you're the

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Speaker 1: main principle of like finding agency over your own mind,

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Speaker 1: finding agency over your own emotions, finding agency of your

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Speaker 1: own actions. Like they almost want you to be probably

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Speaker 1: in that hard sweet spot of sorting it out for yourself.

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Speaker 1: That's a kind of virtue that the Stokes want you

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Speaker 1: to cultivate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you want to be prepared for things to go wrong,

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Speaker 2: but also not a cynical miserable, you know, because I

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Speaker 2: don't believe in manifestation, but I do believe like, if

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Speaker 2: you have a fundamentally negative worldview, the world will be

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Speaker 2: negative to you. I don't think you're changing reality, but

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Speaker 2: if you only look for the worst, you're going to

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Speaker 2: find a lot of bad stuff.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but this is a spot where my students also

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Speaker 1: get it confused, and I think it is really confusing psychologically, right,

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Speaker 1: because on the one hand, we know thinking about the

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Speaker 1: worst helps you a little bit, and all the ways

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Speaker 1: we were just talking about. We also know that optimism

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Speaker 1: helps you a little bit, but it also has these

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Speaker 1: interesting downsides. Right in the manifesting work, there's lots of

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Speaker 1: work why folks like Gabrielle oting in that if you

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Speaker 1: fantasize about a positive future, a lot you take less

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Speaker 1: action towards that positive future. Yeah, so she has these

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Speaker 1: studies were like, you know, you fantasize about getting fit

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Speaker 1: and going to the gym all the time. You think,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, it's gonna be so great, I'm a

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Speaker 1: fit in my clothes and look right whatever. But then

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Speaker 1: the more you fantasize about it, the less you actually

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Speaker 1: go to the gym. And this too comes from a

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Speaker 1: weird feature of imagination, which is that if we've imagined

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Speaker 1: a goal, we don't want that goal as much anymore.

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Speaker 1: There's this lovely study with this guy Carrie mor Wedge

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Speaker 1: who has people either imagining putting quarters into a vending

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Speaker 1: machine over and over again, really slowly or slowly eating

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Speaker 1: m and ms one by one, and then at the

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Speaker 1: end of the study people come out and there's a

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Speaker 1: big va of eminems. What does he find. He finds

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Speaker 1: the people that imagine the quarters eat less eminems because

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Speaker 1: they kind of feel like, if you imagine eating all

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Speaker 1: the eminems, you're kind of satisfied by them. You don't

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Speaker 1: need them anymore. And this is what happens with certain

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Speaker 1: kinds of positive fantasies. We imagine that we already went

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Speaker 1: to the gym and got all the benefits it's like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: don't need to put action into that.

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Speaker 2: I think it's kind of like you took like obviously

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Speaker 2: the engines were saying, like, you should do things for

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Speaker 2: the right reasons, not for necessarily the external rewards. But

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Speaker 2: if part of what is motivating us is the reward

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Speaker 2: and you have stolen it, like you've taken it on credit,

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Speaker 2: you've fantasized it into existence, you have decreased some of

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Speaker 2: your motive to do that thing. Like I've always I

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Speaker 2: try not to talk about like a book that I'm

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Speaker 2: working on. I'd prefer to spend all the energy doing it, yes,

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Speaker 2: because I find that that depletes the motivation to do

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Speaker 2: the hard, uncomfortable day to day and nous of the thing.

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Speaker 2: It's easier to live in the fantasy world than the

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Speaker 2: messy making it world.

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Speaker 1: Right or or you can use your imagination to recognize, Okay,

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Speaker 1: if that's my goal, what's it really going to take? Right?

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Speaker 1: This is kind of like you know when you go

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Speaker 1: to the baths, like, know what's going to happen at

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Speaker 1: the baths? Right? If you have this goal, know what

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Speaker 1: it takes to get there. And I think that was

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Speaker 1: another really rich I associate that with epictitis. But correct

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Speaker 1: me if I'm getting the wrong stoic here. Yeah, where

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like, you know, if you want that

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Speaker 1: goal you want to be like the fit person, imagine

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Speaker 1: the plan to get there. And it turns out from

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Speaker 1: the research that that's a thing that works really well.

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Speaker 1: If you imagine, okay, I want to get fit, say well,

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Speaker 1: then I have to go to the gym every day

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Speaker 1: to put my sneakers out. I really have to commit

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Speaker 1: to this. That helps you know what the plan is

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Speaker 1: because you kind of rehearsed it. It's not as bad

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Speaker 1: or not sure as much of a pain in the butt.

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Speaker 1: But also sometimes you do that and you're liketually there's

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Speaker 1: no way I'm going to get my act together to

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Speaker 1: do that. And then you can have a more appropriate goal, right,

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Speaker 1: You can kind of use your imagination to figure out

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Speaker 1: which goals are appropriate.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think of we were talking about testing the

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Speaker 2: stoic ideas like in the laboratory. Person who did that

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Speaker 2: most recently is Stockdale. Stockdale gets a graduate degree in

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Speaker 2: ancient philosophy at Stanford. The Navy sends him and then

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Speaker 2: he gets thrown into a real Stanford prison experiment.

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Speaker 1: To be fair, most psychologists don't go as hardy.

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Speaker 2: And there he's basically testing a lot of these ideas.

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Speaker 2: He's also really well steeped in the sort of literature

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Speaker 2: as well. By what I think is fascinating is they

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Speaker 2: asked him after, you know, who had the hardest time,

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Speaker 2: and he said it was the optimists, because there was

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Speaker 2: this sense that they would get out by they were

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Speaker 2: always falling for the hey by Christmas or you know,

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Speaker 2: news stories would trickle back to them, or they'd hear

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Speaker 2: things in letters, you know, and arms, justice is coming,

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Speaker 2: and then when that wouldn't happen, they were crushed. And

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Speaker 2: what's interesting in his memoirs he wrote after the fact,

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Speaker 2: but you can even see it in some of the

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Speaker 2: letters you wrote at the time. He kept saying, like,

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Speaker 2: it's going to be at least another two years, it's

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Speaker 2: going to be at least like he was, as it

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Speaker 2: turned out, underestimating how long it would take. But he

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Speaker 2: was not at all convinced that this would happen quickly.

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Speaker 2: And so there's something about optimism that can set you

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Speaker 2: up to be crushed by a world you don't control.

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Speaker 1: Because again, what our mind is doing is it's setting

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Speaker 1: up these reference points, and if we set up a

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Speaker 1: reference point like by Christmas, everything is going to be

428
00:19:37,796 --> 00:19:39,276
Speaker 1: great and it's going to be perfect, and we don't

429
00:19:39,316 --> 00:19:42,796
Speaker 1: get there, you know, we feel terrible, even if objectively

430
00:19:42,836 --> 00:19:44,236
Speaker 1: we probably could have made it. I mean, we're talking

431
00:19:44,236 --> 00:19:47,796
Speaker 1: about terrible. Vietnamese prison is probably you know, bad extreme case.

432
00:19:47,996 --> 00:19:49,876
Speaker 1: But the idea is if you set your reference point

433
00:19:49,996 --> 00:19:53,716
Speaker 1: too high, then even getting the second best possible thing

434
00:19:54,876 --> 00:19:57,316
Speaker 1: feels kind of crappy. Here's another one of my favorite

435
00:19:57,316 --> 00:20:02,116
Speaker 1: psych reference point studies. So researchers analyze people's smiles on

436
00:20:02,156 --> 00:20:05,196
Speaker 1: the Olympic metal stand right, and that's who's happiest, right,

437
00:20:05,276 --> 00:20:06,796
Speaker 1: So you look at the gold medal, is he's that

438
00:20:06,876 --> 00:20:09,316
Speaker 1: person you know, best in the world, really happy? What's

439
00:20:09,316 --> 00:20:11,596
Speaker 1: going on with the silver metallist. Turns out they're not

440
00:20:11,676 --> 00:20:15,556
Speaker 1: showing expressions of happiness. They're showing expressions of things like grief, contempt,

441
00:20:15,676 --> 00:20:18,636
Speaker 1: deep sadness. And that's because, like, you know, their reference

442
00:20:18,636 --> 00:20:20,996
Speaker 1: point was like I almost got gold, So they're objectively

443
00:20:21,076 --> 00:20:23,556
Speaker 1: second best in the world, but feeling really crappy about it.

444
00:20:23,596 --> 00:20:25,236
Speaker 1: That kind of makes sense. But the reason I love

445
00:20:25,276 --> 00:20:28,756
Speaker 1: the studies they also analyze the smiles of the bronze.

446
00:20:28,396 --> 00:20:29,956
Speaker 2: Medallist, right, happy to be there.

447
00:20:30,196 --> 00:20:31,796
Speaker 1: They're so happy to be there. In fact, in some

448
00:20:31,876 --> 00:20:34,516
Speaker 1: cases their smiles are bigger than the gold medalist because like,

449
00:20:34,556 --> 00:20:37,276
Speaker 1: oh my god, my alternative, my negative visualization is like

450
00:20:37,316 --> 00:20:40,236
Speaker 1: I almost didn't get up here at all. And that

451
00:20:40,236 --> 00:20:41,956
Speaker 1: study has always been really powerful to be.

452
00:20:42,036 --> 00:20:43,996
Speaker 2: And I love that because I think there's a Seinfeld

453
00:20:43,996 --> 00:20:48,396
Speaker 2: bit about that that predates the syce yes intuitive just

454
00:20:48,596 --> 00:20:51,116
Speaker 2: as a as a student of human nature, and that's

455
00:20:51,156 --> 00:20:54,476
Speaker 2: the best studies confirm kind of what's we obviously know,

456
00:20:54,796 --> 00:20:58,236
Speaker 2: or it confirms like the opposite of what we think

457
00:20:58,316 --> 00:21:01,196
Speaker 2: we know. But that one so he nails, that's exactly

458
00:21:01,316 --> 00:21:01,756
Speaker 2: what it is.

459
00:21:02,036 --> 00:21:04,516
Speaker 1: Jerry Seinfeld was such a great psychologist and so many,

460
00:21:04,596 --> 00:21:05,556
Speaker 1: so many deferent debats.

461
00:21:05,636 --> 00:21:09,076
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think for me, the momentum morey thing

462
00:21:09,436 --> 00:21:12,796
Speaker 2: is it's not that you are going to die tomorrow,

463
00:21:13,036 --> 00:21:17,756
Speaker 2: but that you could, Yes Couldness puts a level of

464
00:21:17,996 --> 00:21:22,156
Speaker 2: uncertainty and then it forces you to make some decisions.

465
00:21:22,236 --> 00:21:23,676
Speaker 2: I think that's kind of how I think about it.

466
00:21:23,716 --> 00:21:26,316
Speaker 1: That's right, And I think those decisions ultimately are ones

467
00:21:26,356 --> 00:21:28,996
Speaker 1: that make us a lot happier. Right. The decisions are

468
00:21:29,036 --> 00:21:31,796
Speaker 1: usually to be a little bit more present to not

469
00:21:31,956 --> 00:21:34,516
Speaker 1: fall for the like you know, low value you know

470
00:21:34,596 --> 00:21:36,516
Speaker 1: don't mean hit in the current parlance, even though it's

471
00:21:36,516 --> 00:21:37,956
Speaker 1: not really don't mean hit, but like like does the

472
00:21:38,036 --> 00:21:39,956
Speaker 1: kind of low value quick like I'm looking at my

473
00:21:39,996 --> 00:21:42,116
Speaker 1: phone rather than hang out with a kid right before

474
00:21:42,116 --> 00:21:45,316
Speaker 1: he goes to bed, right, And those changes matter a lot.

475
00:21:45,396 --> 00:21:47,876
Speaker 1: Those changes matter a lot for our moment to moment happiness.

476
00:21:47,876 --> 00:21:50,156
Speaker 1: But I think those changes matter a lot for really

477
00:21:50,236 --> 00:21:52,596
Speaker 1: appreciating the stuff we have in life, which again, you know,

478
00:21:52,636 --> 00:21:55,036
Speaker 1: is this so lovingly pointed out, like is not guaranteed

479
00:21:55,196 --> 00:21:55,876
Speaker 1: at any point?

480
00:21:55,956 --> 00:21:58,716
Speaker 2: Yeah, the like, hey should we extend the vacation one day?

481
00:21:58,796 --> 00:22:01,396
Speaker 2: Or hey should I blow off work and go spend

482
00:22:01,436 --> 00:22:03,036
Speaker 2: an extra bit of time for this word? Should I

483
00:22:03,076 --> 00:22:05,956
Speaker 2: take this phone call? It's the it could be the

484
00:22:06,036 --> 00:22:08,396
Speaker 2: last time that you get that thing correct, and so

485
00:22:08,436 --> 00:22:11,396
Speaker 2: you should pa sees it while it's here. That is,

486
00:22:11,676 --> 00:22:13,676
Speaker 2: I think just a real practical way of momentum more

487
00:22:14,156 --> 00:22:16,236
Speaker 2: helps you make better day to day decisions.

488
00:22:16,556 --> 00:22:18,756
Speaker 1: It also changes our time horizon, right like as a

489
00:22:18,836 --> 00:22:22,116
Speaker 1: psychologists often worry about these cases of myopia right where

490
00:22:22,116 --> 00:22:24,236
Speaker 1: you're not saving enough, you're not eating helpy enough, you're

491
00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:27,236
Speaker 1: not protecting your future self. I from a happiness standpoint,

492
00:22:27,276 --> 00:22:30,156
Speaker 1: worry a lot about the opposite, which is hyperopia, which

493
00:22:30,196 --> 00:22:33,236
Speaker 1: is like we're constantly saying I'm doing something for my

494
00:22:33,316 --> 00:22:36,356
Speaker 1: future self, right, but we both get our future self wrong.

495
00:22:36,476 --> 00:22:39,156
Speaker 1: And sometimes like the future isn't guaranteed, so you know,

496
00:22:39,236 --> 00:22:41,636
Speaker 1: take the reward, take that fun thing now, you know

497
00:22:42,036 --> 00:22:44,356
Speaker 1: you know how many times, like do people not end

498
00:22:44,436 --> 00:22:46,876
Speaker 1: up spending their Frequent Flyer miles and they expire or

499
00:22:46,956 --> 00:22:48,756
Speaker 1: you know, buy this nice bottle of wine that you

500
00:22:48,796 --> 00:22:50,156
Speaker 1: and your partner are gonna have one day and then

501
00:22:50,156 --> 00:22:52,756
Speaker 1: you finally find it and it's like corked or something. Right,

502
00:22:53,036 --> 00:22:57,036
Speaker 1: I feel like we're constantly in danger of quirking our lives. Yes,

503
00:22:57,076 --> 00:22:58,996
Speaker 1: even in these local domains. I mean, I've heard you

504
00:22:59,076 --> 00:23:00,996
Speaker 1: use the example of your you know, kids going to

505
00:23:01,076 --> 00:23:03,836
Speaker 1: bed and that you know stoic mantra helping you notice

506
00:23:03,876 --> 00:23:05,716
Speaker 1: and be present. What would you be doing if you

507
00:23:05,716 --> 00:23:07,916
Speaker 1: weren't being present? We'll probably be checking an email for.

508
00:23:07,876 --> 00:23:10,476
Speaker 2: Such like future you is it's not important at all?

509
00:23:10,556 --> 00:23:14,436
Speaker 1: Exactly? Yes, And so fighting our hyperopia and making sure

510
00:23:14,956 --> 00:23:17,476
Speaker 1: you know, we're prioritizing things in the present so that

511
00:23:17,516 --> 00:23:19,956
Speaker 1: we get the right future benefit I think is important.

512
00:23:20,396 --> 00:23:23,676
Speaker 2: I've never met someone who's not saving for retirement, not

513
00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:27,636
Speaker 2: taking care of themselves because they have philosophically worked themselves

514
00:23:27,676 --> 00:23:30,196
Speaker 2: into that position. Yes, they're not doing that because they're

515
00:23:30,236 --> 00:23:31,156
Speaker 2: just not responsible.

516
00:23:31,356 --> 00:23:32,676
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right.

517
00:23:33,116 --> 00:23:35,396
Speaker 2: I do think there's the trouble with some philosophy and

518
00:23:35,436 --> 00:23:39,236
Speaker 2: some people people like they try to like overthink it

519
00:23:39,836 --> 00:23:43,636
Speaker 2: and for these edge cases that aren't real or would

520
00:23:43,636 --> 00:23:46,156
Speaker 2: affect such a minority of the It's like it's like

521
00:23:46,196 --> 00:23:47,636
Speaker 2: people don't want to work out because they don't want

522
00:23:47,636 --> 00:23:50,796
Speaker 2: to be too fit. Yeah, yeah, you're you're not going

523
00:23:50,876 --> 00:23:52,436
Speaker 2: to get there. Don't worry about it, you know. And

524
00:23:52,516 --> 00:23:55,396
Speaker 2: it's like, you know, if everyone actually put in this

525
00:23:55,476 --> 00:24:00,196
Speaker 2: ancient philosophical practice, social security would go bankrupt. And it's like, no, okay,

526
00:24:00,316 --> 00:24:02,796
Speaker 2: first off, it's automatically taken out of everyone's account that

527
00:24:02,836 --> 00:24:05,516
Speaker 2: it's not a choice, that's why. But like, no, the

528
00:24:05,556 --> 00:24:07,436
Speaker 2: people that are not doing it are are doing it

529
00:24:07,476 --> 00:24:11,916
Speaker 2: for other irresponsible reasons, for an extreme philosophical principle.

530
00:24:12,236 --> 00:24:14,556
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do feel like hyperopia is one of

531
00:24:14,556 --> 00:24:17,076
Speaker 1: the you know, people who are a little philosophically informed

532
00:24:17,116 --> 00:24:19,316
Speaker 1: are thinking about how to live a good life. They're

533
00:24:19,356 --> 00:24:22,436
Speaker 1: often the ones that are pretty good at like discounting, right,

534
00:24:22,476 --> 00:24:24,716
Speaker 1: like you know, withholding. But then if you do that

535
00:24:24,796 --> 00:24:26,676
Speaker 1: too much, you know, again, none of us know what

536
00:24:26,796 --> 00:24:28,636
Speaker 1: our moment is, and the momental worry is just a

537
00:24:28,636 --> 00:24:31,036
Speaker 1: reminder of like could be tonight, what I want to

538
00:24:31,036 --> 00:24:32,396
Speaker 1: do different if it was well?

539
00:24:33,156 --> 00:24:34,956
Speaker 2: How many of these people that are obsessed with sort

540
00:24:34,996 --> 00:24:39,116
Speaker 2: of radical life extension have a life worth extending. Seneca

541
00:24:39,156 --> 00:24:41,996
Speaker 2: talks about this story about this emperor, this criminal sort

542
00:24:41,996 --> 00:24:44,196
Speaker 2: of begging to be spared, like don't put me to death,

543
00:24:44,756 --> 00:24:46,996
Speaker 2: and he says, oh, you're really alive. That's what the

544
00:24:47,036 --> 00:24:49,996
Speaker 2: emperor says to him. He's like, you have wasted your life.

545
00:24:50,076 --> 00:24:52,716
Speaker 2: You're a shitty person doing shitty things, and now you're

546
00:24:52,716 --> 00:24:54,916
Speaker 2: begging to be spared to do what so you can

547
00:24:54,956 --> 00:24:57,636
Speaker 2: go back to your life of crime. This is not

548
00:24:57,676 --> 00:25:00,076
Speaker 2: a statement on the justice of the death penalty. The

549
00:25:00,116 --> 00:25:03,756
Speaker 2: point is when I look at the life that these

550
00:25:03,756 --> 00:25:07,436
Speaker 2: people are trying to extend, I'm like, what, you're living

551
00:25:07,476 --> 00:25:09,996
Speaker 2: like a monk, but not in a philosophic yeah, you know.

552
00:25:10,156 --> 00:25:12,836
Speaker 1: Like getting you have random injections and you can't hang

553
00:25:12,836 --> 00:25:14,316
Speaker 1: out with people because when you hang out with people,

554
00:25:14,356 --> 00:25:15,676
Speaker 1: you're going to have drink or go out.

555
00:25:15,596 --> 00:25:17,996
Speaker 2: And have some food. You're gonna in the sun because

556
00:25:18,036 --> 00:25:20,316
Speaker 2: you're worried about this, Like, what you're doing is stripping

557
00:25:20,356 --> 00:25:23,276
Speaker 2: all the reasons for existence out of existence to then

558
00:25:23,356 --> 00:25:26,436
Speaker 2: prolong the existence. So maybe in the future you'll someday

559
00:25:26,476 --> 00:25:27,876
Speaker 2: be happy. You could be happy now.

560
00:25:28,036 --> 00:25:29,956
Speaker 1: And I think they're getting the evidence wrong. I think

561
00:25:29,956 --> 00:25:32,156
Speaker 1: a lot of the evidence for that form of longevity

562
00:25:32,196 --> 00:25:34,636
Speaker 1: comes from, like I don't know, supplement research, like what.

563
00:25:34,836 --> 00:25:37,036
Speaker 1: But if you look psychologically at the kinds of things

564
00:25:37,076 --> 00:25:40,756
Speaker 1: that extend longevity, it is happiness in the moment, your

565
00:25:40,876 --> 00:25:43,716
Speaker 1: social connections, right, the good that you're doing in the world,

566
00:25:43,796 --> 00:25:46,036
Speaker 1: the sense of purpose and value. Right, these are the

567
00:25:46,076 --> 00:25:48,516
Speaker 1: things that extend life when you're faced with terminal illnesses

568
00:25:48,556 --> 00:25:50,396
Speaker 1: and so on. And so it's like, I think they're

569
00:25:50,396 --> 00:25:52,076
Speaker 1: doing it for the wrong reasons. They're going to get

570
00:25:52,076 --> 00:25:53,916
Speaker 1: a long life that's not very valuable. But I also

571
00:25:53,956 --> 00:25:56,396
Speaker 1: think they're missing out. If really what your goal was longevity,

572
00:25:56,396 --> 00:25:58,316
Speaker 1: you might actually just want a happy life in the moment,

573
00:25:58,356 --> 00:25:59,356
Speaker 1: because that would work for you.

574
00:25:59,436 --> 00:26:01,116
Speaker 2: Have you ever talked to someone who's really old, like

575
00:26:01,236 --> 00:26:04,196
Speaker 2: ninety two hundred or whatever. I've talked to many of them,

576
00:26:04,316 --> 00:26:06,836
Speaker 2: and first if they don't talk about being old, they

577
00:26:06,836 --> 00:26:09,596
Speaker 2: don't talk about wanting to live longer, and they're not

578
00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:13,076
Speaker 2: even particularly pumped that they're still alive. To be perfectly honest,

579
00:26:13,076 --> 00:26:15,836
Speaker 2: I don't mean like their life is depressing. But one

580
00:26:15,836 --> 00:26:18,396
Speaker 2: of the striking things about someone you meet, anyone over

581
00:26:18,436 --> 00:26:21,236
Speaker 2: a hundred, they are not clinging to life. They are

582
00:26:21,236 --> 00:26:23,036
Speaker 2: not like I hope I make it to one hundred

583
00:26:23,036 --> 00:26:25,396
Speaker 2: and twelve. I need two more years to get this

584
00:26:25,396 --> 00:26:28,996
Speaker 2: stuff done. What they actually are is day to day.

585
00:26:29,516 --> 00:26:31,836
Speaker 2: And like I just met Richard Overton and Austin. He

586
00:26:31,916 --> 00:26:33,316
Speaker 2: was one hundred and twelve, and I asked him if

587
00:26:33,316 --> 00:26:34,996
Speaker 2: he takes it day by day and he said, at

588
00:26:34,996 --> 00:26:38,036
Speaker 2: my age, you take it day by night. He's like, look,

589
00:26:38,236 --> 00:26:40,116
Speaker 2: I just if I live through the evening, if I

590
00:26:40,156 --> 00:26:43,356
Speaker 2: wake up tomorrow, that's like defying the odds once again.

591
00:26:43,876 --> 00:26:46,556
Speaker 2: In fact, it can sometimes be painful. If you love

592
00:26:46,596 --> 00:26:49,396
Speaker 2: these people. They're like, I'm ready to go, and you're like,

593
00:26:49,436 --> 00:26:53,116
Speaker 2: don't say that, because you're not ready for them to go. Yes,

594
00:26:53,156 --> 00:26:55,316
Speaker 2: but they've gotten to a place where life is no

595
00:26:55,436 --> 00:26:58,716
Speaker 2: longer so precious to them, and that's probably part of it.

596
00:26:58,756 --> 00:27:00,756
Speaker 2: But it's just interesting to me that when you talk

597
00:27:00,756 --> 00:27:02,876
Speaker 2: to the people who have it's like, I guess this

598
00:27:02,996 --> 00:27:05,036
Speaker 2: is also true for wealth. When you talk to the

599
00:27:05,076 --> 00:27:07,156
Speaker 2: people who have it, they're like, it's not that great.

600
00:27:07,236 --> 00:27:10,996
Speaker 2: I'd trade it for X, Y or z. And then

601
00:27:11,156 --> 00:27:14,876
Speaker 2: the people that are obsessed with life expectancy are often

602
00:27:15,156 --> 00:27:19,476
Speaker 2: neglecting the present moment at the expense of some omied future.

603
00:27:19,516 --> 00:27:22,396
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and ultimately like, when you get there, you

604
00:27:22,476 --> 00:27:25,636
Speaker 1: might be happier than you think, no matter what you optimized, right.

605
00:27:25,676 --> 00:27:27,916
Speaker 1: I think this is another stunning thing is that as

606
00:27:27,956 --> 00:27:30,596
Speaker 1: people are will as people get older, but a specifically,

607
00:27:30,596 --> 00:27:32,836
Speaker 1: as people get closer to death, they wind up being

608
00:27:32,876 --> 00:27:35,236
Speaker 1: more positive rather than less. And one of the cute

609
00:27:35,236 --> 00:27:36,996
Speaker 1: studies that looked at this, I mean just talk about

610
00:27:36,996 --> 00:27:39,116
Speaker 1: a structural issue that we should talk about and fight about,

611
00:27:39,116 --> 00:27:41,676
Speaker 1: but it looked at people on death row, right, where

612
00:27:41,756 --> 00:27:44,636
Speaker 1: for older individuals, probably they're getting closer to that last moment,

613
00:27:44,636 --> 00:27:46,516
Speaker 1: but we don't know what it's going to be. Unfortunately,

614
00:27:46,516 --> 00:27:48,916
Speaker 1: with individuals on death row, we can measure it, and

615
00:27:48,956 --> 00:27:52,276
Speaker 1: so researchers look at people's journals, their expressions and things

616
00:27:52,316 --> 00:27:55,876
Speaker 1: as they get closer, and rather than getting more negative,

617
00:27:56,156 --> 00:27:58,676
Speaker 1: they actually get substantially more positive.

618
00:27:58,316 --> 00:28:02,036
Speaker 2: Because the anger, the frustration, the fear just dissipates. Because

619
00:28:02,076 --> 00:28:04,996
Speaker 2: what's you're working at right? I think we don't actually know.

620
00:28:04,916 --> 00:28:07,316
Speaker 1: Why it is, but it seems like psychologically what happens

621
00:28:07,356 --> 00:28:09,556
Speaker 1: is you wind up kind of happier if you look

622
00:28:09,556 --> 00:28:12,556
Speaker 1: at kind of death row notes, because often people will write,

623
00:28:12,596 --> 00:28:16,116
Speaker 1: you know, know, about their situation whatever, like way more strongly,

624
00:28:16,236 --> 00:28:19,756
Speaker 1: like two to one, strongly positive words and other oriented

625
00:28:19,756 --> 00:28:23,036
Speaker 1: words like kindness and their connection and the meaning they've

626
00:28:23,076 --> 00:28:25,676
Speaker 1: gotten and so on, like it's not like me, And he.

627
00:28:25,876 --> 00:28:27,876
Speaker 2: Turns down the noise on the trivial shit. They're not

628
00:28:27,916 --> 00:28:30,276
Speaker 2: like this guy stole this thing from my bunk, you know,

629
00:28:30,436 --> 00:28:34,436
Speaker 2: like just the things you're holding on to when there's

630
00:28:34,516 --> 00:28:38,636
Speaker 2: an eternity. There's a story Lincoln tells this guy in

631
00:28:38,676 --> 00:28:41,956
Speaker 2: his town who hated this other guy. They hated each other,

632
00:28:41,956 --> 00:28:44,596
Speaker 2: and he finds out he has some terminal illness, and

633
00:28:45,116 --> 00:28:47,276
Speaker 2: so he reaches out and says, I want to make amends.

634
00:28:47,716 --> 00:28:49,676
Speaker 2: And so the guy comes in and sees them, and

635
00:28:49,716 --> 00:28:53,916
Speaker 2: they make amends. And as the former enemy is leaving,

636
00:28:53,956 --> 00:28:55,476
Speaker 2: he says, Hey, I just want you to know, if

637
00:28:55,516 --> 00:29:00,196
Speaker 2: I survive this, the grudge is back. And there's something

638
00:29:00,236 --> 00:29:04,036
Speaker 2: about the silliness of what we cling to that the

639
00:29:04,076 --> 00:29:08,756
Speaker 2: ephemorality of life renders insignificant. And I imagine whether you're

640
00:29:08,756 --> 00:29:10,876
Speaker 2: sitting on death row you just found out you have cancer,

641
00:29:10,956 --> 00:29:13,076
Speaker 2: or you're ninety five, you're just like.

642
00:29:13,756 --> 00:29:15,716
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. Yeah, I mean, this is one of

643
00:29:15,716 --> 00:29:18,316
Speaker 1: the benefits of awful situations like finding out you have

644
00:29:18,316 --> 00:29:21,316
Speaker 1: a terminal illness or going through terrible trauma or cancer scare.

645
00:29:21,436 --> 00:29:25,356
Speaker 1: Something is like you wind up more positive, more likely

646
00:29:25,396 --> 00:29:27,916
Speaker 1: to kind of drop the bs. There's lots of evidence

647
00:29:27,916 --> 00:29:30,676
Speaker 1: for what researchers call post traumatic growth, which is kind

648
00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:32,156
Speaker 1: of just what it sounds like, right, You go through

649
00:29:32,156 --> 00:29:34,916
Speaker 1: this traumatic experience and you're like, I feel more connected

650
00:29:35,276 --> 00:29:37,756
Speaker 1: to my purpose, I feel more connected to other people.

651
00:29:38,116 --> 00:29:40,236
Speaker 1: I feel it's much easier to kind of do you

652
00:29:40,236 --> 00:29:42,076
Speaker 1: know what the stoics said a lot about, which is like,

653
00:29:42,156 --> 00:29:43,996
Speaker 1: just don't deal with the you know, just drop the

654
00:29:44,036 --> 00:29:47,556
Speaker 1: boring stuff, right, And that seems to come naturally when

655
00:29:47,596 --> 00:29:50,916
Speaker 1: you face something kind of existential in this rich way

656
00:29:51,196 --> 00:29:53,556
Speaker 1: you have been listening to me chatting with Ryan Holliday

657
00:29:53,596 --> 00:29:56,636
Speaker 1: on the Daily Stoic podcast. We'll get to more conversation

658
00:29:57,036 --> 00:29:57,796
Speaker 1: after the break.

659
00:29:58,996 --> 00:30:01,276
Speaker 2: To me, the essence of wisdom is like knowing what

660
00:30:01,316 --> 00:30:04,516
Speaker 2: matters and what doesn't matter, and mental more is obviously

661
00:30:04,556 --> 00:30:07,436
Speaker 2: a shortcut to like the ultimate wisdom of like, hey,

662
00:30:07,476 --> 00:30:11,236
Speaker 2: basically nothing matters. Accept this present moment and the people

663
00:30:11,276 --> 00:30:14,356
Speaker 2: you love, but just yeah, the faster and better you

664
00:30:14,396 --> 00:30:16,876
Speaker 2: can get it, being like I have no control over that,

665
00:30:17,036 --> 00:30:20,116
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. Like Seneca talks about paying the taxes

666
00:30:20,116 --> 00:30:23,396
Speaker 2: of life gladly yes, we post as a daily stoke,

667
00:30:23,476 --> 00:30:26,396
Speaker 2: like every April fifteen, and the irony of the people

668
00:30:26,396 --> 00:30:29,036
Speaker 2: who get angry and think it's making a political point

669
00:30:29,036 --> 00:30:32,676
Speaker 2: and there's you know, taxation is theft, and it's like no,

670
00:30:32,756 --> 00:30:35,756
Speaker 2: he's saying that taxes are an unavoidable part of life,

671
00:30:36,236 --> 00:30:39,076
Speaker 2: not just from the government, but like delays or a

672
00:30:39,196 --> 00:30:42,676
Speaker 2: tax on travel, Rainy days are a tax on you know,

673
00:30:43,036 --> 00:30:46,276
Speaker 2: living in the tropics, right, Like they're just every rose

674
00:30:46,316 --> 00:30:49,076
Speaker 2: has its thorn, That's what he's saying. And I think

675
00:30:49,836 --> 00:30:52,436
Speaker 2: the element of what philosophy is supposed to get you

676
00:30:52,476 --> 00:30:56,116
Speaker 2: to what wisdom and it's sort of these practices. Okay,

677
00:30:56,156 --> 00:30:58,796
Speaker 2: this is just a fact. This is just a thing,

678
00:30:59,316 --> 00:31:02,036
Speaker 2: and my opinion about it doesn't matter. Fighting about it

679
00:31:02,076 --> 00:31:04,716
Speaker 2: doesn't matter. I just accept it and move on. And

680
00:31:04,716 --> 00:31:07,116
Speaker 2: that's how you know you're making progress is the less

681
00:31:07,196 --> 00:31:10,316
Speaker 2: hung up and resentful and bend out of shape you

682
00:31:10,356 --> 00:31:13,916
Speaker 2: are about those things that just don't matter or are inalterable.

683
00:31:14,316 --> 00:31:16,156
Speaker 1: And I think if you understand a little bit about

684
00:31:16,196 --> 00:31:18,996
Speaker 1: the psychology, you can realize that like, not only do

685
00:31:18,996 --> 00:31:21,796
Speaker 1: you have some agency in that, but there's learning that

686
00:31:21,836 --> 00:31:24,076
Speaker 1: goes on, right, there's growth. Right if you take this

687
00:31:24,196 --> 00:31:26,836
Speaker 1: mindset of like I'm not gonna let the BS destroy me,

688
00:31:27,276 --> 00:31:29,996
Speaker 1: then when the BS shows up, you're like, oh, hang on,

689
00:31:30,476 --> 00:31:32,716
Speaker 1: this is my time to level up, Like this is

690
00:31:32,756 --> 00:31:36,036
Speaker 1: some really good BS to like achieve. My comments on

691
00:31:36,356 --> 00:31:38,396
Speaker 1: and that reading the Stoics has been kind of a

692
00:31:38,436 --> 00:31:40,996
Speaker 1: game changer for me is to remember that when the

693
00:31:41,036 --> 00:31:43,836
Speaker 1: tax shows up, you're like, oh, good thing. This is

694
00:31:43,836 --> 00:31:46,236
Speaker 1: how I build up my like life tax resilience, and

695
00:31:46,276 --> 00:31:48,036
Speaker 1: this is actually good. This is a chance for me

696
00:31:48,076 --> 00:31:50,796
Speaker 1: to like show my metal or something. And I think

697
00:31:50,876 --> 00:31:53,476
Speaker 1: that kind of stance can be really powerful because it

698
00:31:53,516 --> 00:31:55,636
Speaker 1: means you almost not only are you like, I'm just

699
00:31:55,716 --> 00:31:58,036
Speaker 1: accepting of the bs. When it shows up, you're almost like,

700
00:31:58,676 --> 00:32:00,156
Speaker 1: bring it. You know. I go to the airport and

701
00:32:00,236 --> 00:32:01,716
Speaker 1: I'm like, is this going to be like when you

702
00:32:01,716 --> 00:32:04,836
Speaker 1: go to the bath situation? Like let's you know, you know, yeah.

703
00:32:05,076 --> 00:32:06,796
Speaker 2: I remember when I moved to New York a friend

704
00:32:06,876 --> 00:32:08,436
Speaker 2: who lived there a long time, He's like, look the

705
00:32:08,476 --> 00:32:11,996
Speaker 2: secrets in you is you gotta you gotta understand that

706
00:32:12,396 --> 00:32:14,916
Speaker 2: it costs what it costs. You come from somewhere else.

707
00:32:14,956 --> 00:32:17,356
Speaker 2: You're like, this is insanely expensive, this is insanely dirty.

708
00:32:17,796 --> 00:32:19,876
Speaker 2: You just have all these objections that this isn't how

709
00:32:19,876 --> 00:32:22,796
Speaker 2: it should be. And he was basically saying like, look,

710
00:32:22,796 --> 00:32:24,276
Speaker 2: if you're gonna go out for drinks in New York City,

711
00:32:24,276 --> 00:32:25,596
Speaker 2: it's gonna cost a lot of money. You're gonna go

712
00:32:25,596 --> 00:32:27,836
Speaker 2: out to breakfast, your apartment is gonna That's just what

713
00:32:27,876 --> 00:32:30,756
Speaker 2: it is. And the more, the sooner you accept that.

714
00:32:31,556 --> 00:32:33,396
Speaker 2: And he wasn't making a financial point he was saying.

715
00:32:33,436 --> 00:32:35,636
Speaker 2: He was saying like, don't don't add on top of

716
00:32:35,676 --> 00:32:41,676
Speaker 2: this resentment and bafflement and and shock, don't you spend

717
00:32:41,676 --> 00:32:43,916
Speaker 2: a ton of energy trying to think you can beat

718
00:32:43,956 --> 00:32:46,276
Speaker 2: the system. It costs what it costs. And to me,

719
00:32:46,356 --> 00:32:49,556
Speaker 2: that's like just a really basic philosophical like life is

720
00:32:49,556 --> 00:32:51,916
Speaker 2: what it is. People are people. When you go to

721
00:32:51,956 --> 00:32:56,156
Speaker 2: the baths, expect this thing. That's what it is. And

722
00:32:56,396 --> 00:32:57,876
Speaker 2: that was true in ancient Rome, it was true in

723
00:32:57,876 --> 00:33:00,556
Speaker 2: ancient Greece, it was true in this or that dynasty

724
00:33:00,596 --> 00:33:03,396
Speaker 2: in China. It's just how it is. Like the sooner

725
00:33:03,436 --> 00:33:05,636
Speaker 2: you go it costs what it costs, I'm just gonna pay,

726
00:33:05,676 --> 00:33:08,196
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna pay it gladly, the happier you can

727
00:33:08,236 --> 00:33:08,916
Speaker 2: be as a person.

728
00:33:09,116 --> 00:33:11,316
Speaker 1: And this, I think is where imagination can help us,

729
00:33:11,356 --> 00:33:14,516
Speaker 1: because you can help yourself. Remember, ooh, this is a

730
00:33:14,516 --> 00:33:17,476
Speaker 1: situation coming up where like it's a bath situation. My

731
00:33:17,836 --> 00:33:20,436
Speaker 1: husband's philosopher also a big stoic stand like me, and

732
00:33:20,476 --> 00:33:22,996
Speaker 1: he constantly is reminding me, like this is a bath situation.

733
00:33:23,196 --> 00:33:25,316
Speaker 1: He lives in the Midwest, which means we're constantly flying

734
00:33:25,316 --> 00:33:28,276
Speaker 1: through oahair Airport, and I think, like, you know, Epictitis

735
00:33:28,316 --> 00:33:30,316
Speaker 1: wasn't talking about hairport, but it could have been when

736
00:33:30,316 --> 00:33:32,476
Speaker 1: he was talking about the bath. And like literally when

737
00:33:32,556 --> 00:33:34,156
Speaker 1: we when I'm about to book a flight and I'm like,

738
00:33:34,196 --> 00:33:36,396
Speaker 1: here's our labor over here. My husband will be like,

739
00:33:36,596 --> 00:33:38,596
Speaker 1: remember we go to the bath. Like when you go

740
00:33:38,596 --> 00:33:42,156
Speaker 1: to O'Hair, flights get canceled. There is no read and

741
00:33:42,196 --> 00:33:45,236
Speaker 1: you just have to And I'm like, oh yeah, me through.

742
00:33:45,116 --> 00:33:47,516
Speaker 2: O hair a week and a half ago. And even

743
00:33:47,556 --> 00:33:50,156
Speaker 2: though as I was looking at the flight on flight

744
00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:53,316
Speaker 2: to where it's like average flights out of O'Hair are

745
00:33:53,396 --> 00:33:56,676
Speaker 2: thirty two minutes delay, right, and I get there and

746
00:33:56,756 --> 00:33:59,396
Speaker 2: I was flying from Dubai and so it's like all

747
00:33:59,436 --> 00:34:01,036
Speaker 2: I wanted to do was get home. You know, it's

748
00:34:01,076 --> 00:34:03,756
Speaker 2: like the last two and a half hour leg and

749
00:34:04,356 --> 00:34:08,516
Speaker 2: get there board the plane mediate thirty two minute delay,

750
00:34:09,156 --> 00:34:11,836
Speaker 2: and I'm surprised by it. I'm like, what you know?

751
00:34:12,116 --> 00:34:14,836
Speaker 2: And it's like, no, no, they told you on average

752
00:34:14,836 --> 00:34:17,556
Speaker 2: this is gonna happen. It could actually be worse that

753
00:34:17,716 --> 00:34:20,156
Speaker 2: it was almost certainly not going to be better. And

754
00:34:20,236 --> 00:34:23,556
Speaker 2: here you are, you have the information, you know what

755
00:34:23,556 --> 00:34:26,076
Speaker 2: O'Hara is like, and you know what o'haa is like

756
00:34:26,156 --> 00:34:29,676
Speaker 2: right now, and then you're disappointed, caught off guard, and

757
00:34:29,716 --> 00:34:33,236
Speaker 2: you are like frustrated as if something's being done to you,

758
00:34:33,316 --> 00:34:35,556
Speaker 2: as if it's not being done to everyone, and they

759
00:34:35,596 --> 00:34:36,676
Speaker 2: didn't warn you in advance.

760
00:34:36,876 --> 00:34:40,756
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, but for me that advanced simulation when

761
00:34:40,796 --> 00:34:42,556
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm going to it. You know, we're here

762
00:34:42,596 --> 00:34:45,636
Speaker 1: in Texas having this conversation. I'm in Austin. The relative

763
00:34:45,676 --> 00:34:47,836
Speaker 1: to the Northeast, there's just a lot of traffic. There's

764
00:34:47,876 --> 00:34:49,996
Speaker 1: a lot of like, you're just gonna not go very

765
00:34:49,996 --> 00:34:51,396
Speaker 1: far and you're gonna sit in traffic. And I just

766
00:34:51,436 --> 00:34:54,156
Speaker 1: have to Yes, when you're in Austin, you just you know,

767
00:34:54,316 --> 00:34:54,556
Speaker 1: do it.

768
00:34:54,716 --> 00:34:57,156
Speaker 2: You go, Hey, at least it's not sell polo or something.

769
00:34:57,236 --> 00:34:57,396
Speaker 1: Right.

770
00:34:57,596 --> 00:35:01,276
Speaker 2: Yes, what the perspective goes is, hey, would you rather

771
00:35:01,796 --> 00:35:02,476
Speaker 2: be canceled?

772
00:35:02,956 --> 00:35:05,556
Speaker 1: You know? And that and that moment of negativetion, like

773
00:35:05,676 --> 00:35:08,036
Speaker 1: recognizing you have the agency to pick a different reference

774
00:35:08,076 --> 00:35:10,916
Speaker 1: point is so. So a couple of years ago, broke

775
00:35:10,956 --> 00:35:12,916
Speaker 1: my knee on the ice for the second time. So

776
00:35:12,956 --> 00:35:14,476
Speaker 1: I broke my knee in ice first time, and then

777
00:35:14,516 --> 00:35:16,556
Speaker 1: a few years later broke my knee again. And it

778
00:35:16,636 --> 00:35:18,476
Speaker 1: was like right at the beginning of this very busy

779
00:35:18,516 --> 00:35:20,156
Speaker 1: period of my life, and I was so bummed out

780
00:35:20,156 --> 00:35:22,036
Speaker 1: about it, and I was like, this is a time

781
00:35:22,116 --> 00:35:24,756
Speaker 1: for the stoics. And I picked up Bill Ravine in

782
00:35:24,756 --> 00:35:26,196
Speaker 1: The Philosopher. I think You've had him on the show

783
00:35:26,276 --> 00:35:28,596
Speaker 1: this book Stoic Challenge, and he was like, you know,

784
00:35:28,676 --> 00:35:30,916
Speaker 1: this is Stoic Challenge, but the book is awesome because

785
00:35:30,916 --> 00:35:33,076
Speaker 1: it goes through like you know, you broke your leg.

786
00:35:33,076 --> 00:35:35,116
Speaker 1: I was like, well that really bummer. But then he's like,

787
00:35:35,236 --> 00:35:37,596
Speaker 1: but you could be you know, blind, like you could

788
00:35:37,596 --> 00:35:39,556
Speaker 1: have had your leg chopped off. You could be locked

789
00:35:39,556 --> 00:35:42,596
Speaker 1: in right where like you know, you literally can't communicate

790
00:35:42,636 --> 00:35:45,236
Speaker 1: with anybody except blinking your eyes and drooling. And I

791
00:35:45,276 --> 00:35:48,196
Speaker 1: was like, oh, that's knee is great. I can deal

792
00:35:48,236 --> 00:35:51,076
Speaker 1: with me, It's like and so just having that power,

793
00:35:51,356 --> 00:35:53,396
Speaker 1: like taking the agency to remember that you can find

794
00:35:53,396 --> 00:35:55,316
Speaker 1: this reference point that makes you feel not that bad.

795
00:35:55,916 --> 00:35:57,516
Speaker 1: That for me has been a real game changer.

796
00:35:57,676 --> 00:35:59,916
Speaker 2: Well, Epiced, you just said, you know, we choose which

797
00:35:59,956 --> 00:36:02,756
Speaker 2: handle we're going to grab, that every situation has two handles,

798
00:36:02,756 --> 00:36:05,116
Speaker 2: and I actually I don't disagree with the Stokes too much,

799
00:36:05,156 --> 00:36:07,676
Speaker 2: but I would say, actually, every situation has an infinite

800
00:36:07,756 --> 00:36:10,276
Speaker 2: number of hands, and you get to choose which one

801
00:36:10,276 --> 00:36:12,436
Speaker 2: you're going to go. So, hey, it's broke your knee

802
00:36:12,436 --> 00:36:16,236
Speaker 2: instead of you know, an amputation. That's one. The other

803
00:36:16,436 --> 00:36:18,836
Speaker 2: is what are the fucking chances that I broke my

804
00:36:18,916 --> 00:36:22,836
Speaker 2: knee twice the same way. Isn't this hilarious? You know?

805
00:36:24,236 --> 00:36:25,996
Speaker 1: Did the Stoics talk about humor a lot? Because I

806
00:36:25,996 --> 00:36:27,676
Speaker 1: feel like that's where my mind goes to you with

807
00:36:27,716 --> 00:36:29,796
Speaker 1: some of these negative visualizations, but I don't see that

808
00:36:29,916 --> 00:36:30,876
Speaker 1: as much. Well.

809
00:36:31,676 --> 00:36:34,436
Speaker 2: Seneca says that there's two schools of thoughts. He says,

810
00:36:34,476 --> 00:36:39,716
Speaker 2: there's Democritus, who basically despaired and cried over the awfulness

811
00:36:39,716 --> 00:36:42,396
Speaker 2: of life, and Heraclius, who laughed at it. And which

812
00:36:42,516 --> 00:36:45,156
Speaker 2: which are you going to choose? So again, that's the handle, right,

813
00:36:45,236 --> 00:36:47,876
Speaker 2: You're going to choose the depressing cynical handle. Are you

814
00:36:47,956 --> 00:36:52,236
Speaker 2: going to, you know, choose the absurdity laughter handle? We

815
00:36:52,316 --> 00:36:54,836
Speaker 2: know that one of the stokes, Chrysippus, dies of laughter.

816
00:36:54,916 --> 00:36:58,436
Speaker 2: He's actually on the Wikipedia page for unusual deaths. And

817
00:36:58,476 --> 00:37:00,876
Speaker 2: the joke is he was sitting on his front porch

818
00:37:01,476 --> 00:37:04,516
Speaker 2: and a donkey runs away from its owner and runs

819
00:37:04,556 --> 00:37:06,916
Speaker 2: up and begins eating like figs out of his garden,

820
00:37:07,556 --> 00:37:10,676
Speaker 2: and Chrysippus says, you should get that donkey some wine

821
00:37:10,716 --> 00:37:13,436
Speaker 2: to wash down those figs, and then starts to laugh

822
00:37:13,436 --> 00:37:16,396
Speaker 2: at his own joke, which, as I do not understand, like,

823
00:37:16,436 --> 00:37:18,516
Speaker 2: I don't get the joke, what does it mean? And

824
00:37:18,556 --> 00:37:22,076
Speaker 2: he laughs so hard that he dies beautiful, which I

825
00:37:22,156 --> 00:37:24,236
Speaker 2: love because first off, we had this idea of the

826
00:37:24,316 --> 00:37:25,196
Speaker 2: humorless stoics.

827
00:37:25,356 --> 00:37:27,076
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and then in and.

828
00:37:26,996 --> 00:37:30,516
Speaker 2: Of itself is funny, what a ridiculous way to die?

829
00:37:30,876 --> 00:37:32,196
Speaker 1: Like probably if you could have told him that was

830
00:37:32,236 --> 00:37:34,116
Speaker 1: how he's going to die, He's like, that's beautiful. It's

831
00:37:34,116 --> 00:37:35,196
Speaker 1: a legacy, o one, and it's.

832
00:37:35,116 --> 00:37:37,116
Speaker 2: Kind of a memento more thing to like, you know,

833
00:37:37,156 --> 00:37:38,916
Speaker 2: you look at like famous people who died on the

834
00:37:38,916 --> 00:37:41,516
Speaker 2: toilet or you know, like just like you think life

835
00:37:41,596 --> 00:37:44,116
Speaker 2: is so dignified and in your control and you're going

836
00:37:44,156 --> 00:37:46,836
Speaker 2: to die with your boots on, and it's like, actually, no,

837
00:37:46,916 --> 00:37:49,516
Speaker 2: you're gonna sneeze too hard and have a stroke. You know,

838
00:37:50,596 --> 00:37:53,756
Speaker 2: like human body is so lame and stupid and you're

839
00:37:53,876 --> 00:37:56,436
Speaker 2: not any bit above that.

840
00:37:56,756 --> 00:37:58,956
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when you ultimately look at that, it's kind

841
00:37:58,956 --> 00:38:01,036
Speaker 1: of funny, right, It's kind of it's like connect you

842
00:38:01,076 --> 00:38:02,236
Speaker 1: with everything, right, yeah.

843
00:38:02,156 --> 00:38:04,356
Speaker 2: Yes, you see like, oh, there's a deer, got an

844
00:38:04,356 --> 00:38:06,596
Speaker 2: antler stuck in a tree they'll find or have you

845
00:38:06,596 --> 00:38:08,716
Speaker 2: ever seen where it's like too like a deer with

846
00:38:08,756 --> 00:38:11,476
Speaker 2: another deer's heads. Oh yes, ah, yes, you're just like

847
00:38:11,876 --> 00:38:15,356
Speaker 2: that's so dumb. And then you're like human history is

848
00:38:15,396 --> 00:38:18,076
Speaker 2: in full of dumber ways that we've killed each other

849
00:38:18,556 --> 00:38:22,036
Speaker 2: or accidentally killed ourselves. You know, it's just like life

850
00:38:22,076 --> 00:38:23,796
Speaker 2: is pathetic in that way.

851
00:38:24,036 --> 00:38:26,676
Speaker 1: Yeah. Recognizing that humor can be part of your agency,

852
00:38:26,796 --> 00:38:29,196
Speaker 1: I think is really really, really powerful.

853
00:38:29,596 --> 00:38:32,356
Speaker 2: Do you feel like the Stokes didn't talk about happiness enough?

854
00:38:32,716 --> 00:38:34,916
Speaker 1: Well, I think, I mean, their whole point was getting

855
00:38:34,956 --> 00:38:36,596
Speaker 1: to a happy life. I think they didn't define it

856
00:38:36,636 --> 00:38:38,116
Speaker 1: that much because I think they were kind of like,

857
00:38:38,236 --> 00:38:40,076
Speaker 1: what you want is like not to be bothered by

858
00:38:40,116 --> 00:38:42,396
Speaker 1: the bs of life. Like I think they didn't state

859
00:38:42,396 --> 00:38:44,316
Speaker 1: that out because they just thought it was so self aware.

860
00:38:44,516 --> 00:38:47,476
Speaker 2: Let's eliminate all the pointless causes of unhappiness.

861
00:38:47,596 --> 00:38:50,356
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, And ultimately I think you know, they're

862
00:38:50,556 --> 00:38:53,036
Speaker 1: channeling something I think is really important in the happiness science,

863
00:38:53,036 --> 00:38:56,476
Speaker 1: which is like, even in extreme circumstances, like it doesn't

864
00:38:56,476 --> 00:38:59,076
Speaker 1: define your happiness in the way that you think, right,

865
00:38:59,356 --> 00:39:01,996
Speaker 1: and all the good stuff definitely doesn't define your happiness,

866
00:39:02,076 --> 00:39:05,276
Speaker 1: like getting more money, getting more prestige, that stuff, it

867
00:39:05,276 --> 00:39:07,596
Speaker 1: doesn't make you happier and I think the Stoics were

868
00:39:07,636 --> 00:39:09,476
Speaker 1: onto that, but also for a different reason, just like

869
00:39:09,516 --> 00:39:11,316
Speaker 1: at any point it could go away, right, And so

870
00:39:11,356 --> 00:39:13,356
Speaker 1: if you're going for that and you tend not to

871
00:39:13,356 --> 00:39:16,476
Speaker 1: have control over that stuff as much, right, So leading

872
00:39:16,476 --> 00:39:18,436
Speaker 1: a life where you really don't want to be perturbed,

873
00:39:18,636 --> 00:39:20,156
Speaker 1: just go for the stuff that you can control, and

874
00:39:20,196 --> 00:39:21,596
Speaker 1: you make it much easier on yourself.

875
00:39:21,716 --> 00:39:23,836
Speaker 2: Well, Cistero's question was like, can you be happy on

876
00:39:23,876 --> 00:39:24,276
Speaker 2: the rack?

877
00:39:24,636 --> 00:39:24,916
Speaker 1: Yes?

878
00:39:25,156 --> 00:39:27,836
Speaker 2: And that seems like, you know, is that like a

879
00:39:27,836 --> 00:39:30,716
Speaker 2: philosophical question like the trolley problem? And then it's like, well,

880
00:39:30,756 --> 00:39:33,516
Speaker 2: this dude did get his head and hands chopped off, yes,

881
00:39:33,516 --> 00:39:38,636
Speaker 2: by a vindictive you know enemy, so it wasn't so

882
00:39:38,796 --> 00:39:41,756
Speaker 2: abstract like he did me. And can you be happy

883
00:39:42,156 --> 00:39:44,356
Speaker 2: when you're grieving the loss of a child? Can you

884
00:39:44,396 --> 00:39:47,036
Speaker 2: be happy when your your government has fallen? Can you

885
00:39:47,076 --> 00:39:50,076
Speaker 2: be happy when you're in exile? I do think the

886
00:39:50,156 --> 00:39:56,676
Speaker 2: Stoics specifically had a more robust and resilient happiness in mind.

887
00:39:56,796 --> 00:40:02,196
Speaker 2: They weren't talking about laughter and fun much as it's

888
00:40:02,236 --> 00:40:04,996
Speaker 2: not smiling happiness, but it's something more profound.

889
00:40:04,716 --> 00:40:07,596
Speaker 1: Your diamondeir right, They're like stealing from these other ancient concepts.

890
00:40:07,636 --> 00:40:10,676
Speaker 1: So it's really about kind of having a flourishing life.

891
00:40:10,876 --> 00:40:12,596
Speaker 1: But I think the difference of a flourishing life for

892
00:40:12,596 --> 00:40:15,036
Speaker 1: the Stoics is like, Okay, have the flourishing life and

893
00:40:15,076 --> 00:40:17,636
Speaker 1: do all the good, valuable moral things, but also don't

894
00:40:17,716 --> 00:40:20,276
Speaker 1: let the BS get you down. Yes, like don't experience

895
00:40:20,316 --> 00:40:22,596
Speaker 1: the perturbations. If we could just get or just not

896
00:40:22,636 --> 00:40:24,636
Speaker 1: get rid of the negative emotions but use them in

897
00:40:24,676 --> 00:40:27,436
Speaker 1: ways to get you towards your values and regulate them

898
00:40:27,476 --> 00:40:30,236
Speaker 1: as quickly as possible. Yeah, part is like you can, right,

899
00:40:30,276 --> 00:40:33,196
Speaker 1: And so I think what the stoics are really focused on,

900
00:40:33,316 --> 00:40:34,996
Speaker 1: or at least my root of the Stoics is focused on,

901
00:40:35,156 --> 00:40:37,796
Speaker 1: is like regulating that negative emotion so that you feel

902
00:40:37,796 --> 00:40:40,516
Speaker 1: happy kind of in your life. Modern day psychologists tend

903
00:40:40,516 --> 00:40:42,596
Speaker 1: to think about happiness as having these two parts, sort

904
00:40:42,636 --> 00:40:45,036
Speaker 1: of being happy in your life, so ideally lots of

905
00:40:45,076 --> 00:40:48,396
Speaker 1: positive emotion, the laughter and so on, but less negative emotion,

906
00:40:48,596 --> 00:40:51,516
Speaker 1: not none, but less negative emotion. And then second, being

907
00:40:51,556 --> 00:40:53,636
Speaker 1: happy with your life, which is kind of like you

908
00:40:53,636 --> 00:40:56,716
Speaker 1: think your life is going well. It has valuepose having enough,

909
00:40:56,836 --> 00:41:00,516
Speaker 1: having enough of you, eating some conditional future thing to

910
00:41:00,596 --> 00:41:02,956
Speaker 1: go a certain way to become happy then, but you

911
00:41:03,036 --> 00:41:05,196
Speaker 1: have it now, yeah, And I think the Stoics tapped

912
00:41:05,236 --> 00:41:07,556
Speaker 1: into both of these. Often psychologists talk about these two

913
00:41:07,556 --> 00:41:09,636
Speaker 1: parts as sort of the affective part of happiness, how

914
00:41:09,676 --> 00:41:12,436
Speaker 1: your life feels, versus the cognitive part of happiness, how

915
00:41:12,436 --> 00:41:14,596
Speaker 1: you think your life is going right, And I think

916
00:41:14,596 --> 00:41:17,356
Speaker 1: the Stoics wanted to kind of achieve both, Right, you

917
00:41:17,396 --> 00:41:19,996
Speaker 1: regulate your negative emotions, you come with all these strategies

918
00:41:19,996 --> 00:41:22,636
Speaker 1: to have control over them, but you also have control

919
00:41:22,676 --> 00:41:24,596
Speaker 1: over your thoughts and how you think it's going right,

920
00:41:24,636 --> 00:41:27,116
Speaker 1: And so even in a bad situation, you can think

921
00:41:27,116 --> 00:41:29,756
Speaker 1: it's going well because you have a mechanism of appreciating it.

922
00:41:30,276 --> 00:41:32,636
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's tough though.

923
00:41:32,996 --> 00:41:33,716
Speaker 1: It's tough though.

924
00:41:33,796 --> 00:41:38,156
Speaker 2: How many how many powerful, successful, important people would we

925
00:41:39,316 --> 00:41:41,196
Speaker 2: would we say we're happy?

926
00:41:41,596 --> 00:41:43,516
Speaker 1: Very few? Right, Yeah, But I think the Stoics would

927
00:41:43,516 --> 00:41:45,476
Speaker 1: be like yep, because like they're going after all these

928
00:41:45,516 --> 00:41:49,636
Speaker 1: things that they ultimately can't control, right, right. But I

929
00:41:49,676 --> 00:41:52,836
Speaker 1: think also so that's another big principle of the happiness science,

930
00:41:52,956 --> 00:41:57,076
Speaker 1: Like you can definitely become happier, you can't become infinitely happier.

931
00:41:57,236 --> 00:41:59,876
Speaker 1: Like most of the modal size of most of the

932
00:41:59,916 --> 00:42:02,396
Speaker 1: effects in the field are about ten percent. Dan Harris

933
00:42:02,436 --> 00:42:04,196
Speaker 1: is this idea of ten percent happier and it's really

934
00:42:04,356 --> 00:42:05,876
Speaker 1: is really built on the evidence because you can go

935
00:42:05,956 --> 00:42:07,956
Speaker 1: up about a point on a ten point happiness scale.

936
00:42:07,996 --> 00:42:10,356
Speaker 1: But most of these interventions to do right so you

937
00:42:10,396 --> 00:42:13,436
Speaker 1: can get happier, well, ultimately it takes some work. Yeah,

938
00:42:13,476 --> 00:42:16,036
Speaker 1: and I think those stoics knew about you know. I

939
00:42:16,036 --> 00:42:18,676
Speaker 1: mean some of the most painful passages in the stoics

940
00:42:18,716 --> 00:42:21,316
Speaker 1: for me, or when they're just like laying out like yeah,

941
00:42:21,396 --> 00:42:23,636
Speaker 1: you know, your your kid could go and you got

942
00:42:23,636 --> 00:42:25,516
Speaker 1: to like just be like, yep, he didn't belong to

943
00:42:25,556 --> 00:42:28,316
Speaker 1: me anyway. And you're like yeah, but like, yeah, you know,

944
00:42:28,436 --> 00:42:29,996
Speaker 1: it didn't belong to me. So if I really want

945
00:42:29,996 --> 00:42:31,556
Speaker 1: to be happy, I just have to not I have

946
00:42:31,636 --> 00:42:34,836
Speaker 1: to you know, the day after your spouse dies, you're like, yeah,

947
00:42:34,876 --> 00:42:37,396
Speaker 1: I'm not perturbed because my goal is to live unperturbed.

948
00:42:37,396 --> 00:42:40,116
Speaker 1: And you're like, oh man, that's rough. That takes a

949
00:42:40,156 --> 00:42:40,716
Speaker 1: lot of work.

950
00:42:40,916 --> 00:42:43,916
Speaker 2: It's a lot to ask. It's a bit much to be. Like,

951
00:42:43,956 --> 00:42:46,276
Speaker 2: you know, Mark s Realis his meditation is a little depressing.

952
00:42:46,476 --> 00:42:49,516
Speaker 2: It's like, Okay, this guy was the most powerful person

953
00:42:49,516 --> 00:42:52,396
Speaker 2: in the world, Yeah, he spent his whole reign at war.

954
00:42:52,516 --> 00:42:54,316
Speaker 2: There was a flood, there was a famine, there was

955
00:42:54,356 --> 00:42:58,916
Speaker 2: a coup attempt. Some historians think his wife was repeatedly unfaithful.

956
00:42:59,196 --> 00:43:02,756
Speaker 2: He buried more than half of his children, He lost

957
00:43:02,756 --> 00:43:05,076
Speaker 2: his father as a young man. You know, just think

958
00:43:05,076 --> 00:43:09,076
Speaker 2: of the conniving, awful, disingenuous people he would have had

959
00:43:09,196 --> 00:43:11,196
Speaker 2: to deal with on a day to day basis. And

960
00:43:11,236 --> 00:43:13,716
Speaker 2: by the way, what he really liked was books and

961
00:43:13,876 --> 00:43:16,236
Speaker 2: he never had a time like it's a lot to

962
00:43:16,276 --> 00:43:18,916
Speaker 2: be like, well, you know, he could have been more

963
00:43:18,956 --> 00:43:21,636
Speaker 2: fun like that this guy got out of bed in

964
00:43:21,676 --> 00:43:25,636
Speaker 2: the morning was a profound statement about his happiness and

965
00:43:25,676 --> 00:43:29,956
Speaker 2: hopefulness and you know sort of character and resilience. Like

966
00:43:30,276 --> 00:43:33,396
Speaker 2: I think it would have wrecked most people. Yeah, it's

967
00:43:33,396 --> 00:43:36,636
Speaker 2: insane that he didn't kill himself, to be quite honest, Like,

968
00:43:37,876 --> 00:43:40,036
Speaker 2: how did he not stagger under those bulls? And I

969
00:43:40,076 --> 00:43:44,636
Speaker 2: would say he probably did. But there was some fundamental

970
00:43:44,796 --> 00:43:48,956
Speaker 2: love of life and the day to day that kept

971
00:43:48,996 --> 00:43:49,396
Speaker 2: him going.

972
00:43:49,476 --> 00:43:51,396
Speaker 1: And I think that this, you know, this idea of

973
00:43:51,396 --> 00:43:53,956
Speaker 1: a fundamental love of life in the day to day

974
00:43:53,956 --> 00:43:56,556
Speaker 1: that keeps you going is so powerful, right, And the

975
00:43:56,556 --> 00:43:59,636
Speaker 1: happiness space folks often talk about gratitude. I think can

976
00:43:59,676 --> 00:44:02,396
Speaker 1: sometimes sound cheesy. I wish i'd better marketing. Yeah, I

977
00:44:02,476 --> 00:44:04,956
Speaker 1: like to talk often about delights. Yes, which it was

978
00:44:05,036 --> 00:44:07,196
Speaker 1: kind of just like things in the world that you like. Delight,

979
00:44:07,316 --> 00:44:09,876
Speaker 1: Like it's just you know, sunny out cats here and

980
00:44:09,996 --> 00:44:12,036
Speaker 1: is really cute. You know, the morning coffee has a

981
00:44:12,036 --> 00:44:14,596
Speaker 1: little swirl in it and that's funny. It's like, oh, delight,

982
00:44:15,076 --> 00:44:15,796
Speaker 1: just like some of the.

983
00:44:15,796 --> 00:44:19,196
Speaker 2: Best writing and meditations. He's out like a stock of

984
00:44:19,236 --> 00:44:22,116
Speaker 2: grain bending under its own weight. He talks about the

985
00:44:22,156 --> 00:44:25,516
Speaker 2: brow of a lion. My favorite delight one he talks

986
00:44:25,556 --> 00:44:29,196
Speaker 2: about the way that you put a loaf of bread

987
00:44:29,196 --> 00:44:30,716
Speaker 2: in the oven and when it comes out, it has

988
00:44:30,756 --> 00:44:33,476
Speaker 2: this crack on the top and he's like, nobody knows why,

989
00:44:33,676 --> 00:44:36,116
Speaker 2: and it wasn't on purpose, but it's sort of pretty

990
00:44:36,556 --> 00:44:41,076
Speaker 2: and just like the poet's eye for the mundane extraordinariness

991
00:44:41,116 --> 00:44:41,596
Speaker 2: of life.

992
00:44:41,836 --> 00:44:44,076
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think you know what they're tapping into

993
00:44:44,236 --> 00:44:46,836
Speaker 1: is is a positive motion that we know is super

994
00:44:46,876 --> 00:44:48,796
Speaker 1: important for happiness. We don't talk about a lot, which

995
00:44:48,796 --> 00:44:52,076
Speaker 1: is emotion of awe. Right, it's kind of something bigger

996
00:44:52,116 --> 00:44:54,396
Speaker 1: than you. It's kind of like you don't really understand it,

997
00:44:54,436 --> 00:44:56,116
Speaker 1: so it kind of makes you feel a little bit weird.

998
00:44:56,476 --> 00:44:59,636
Speaker 1: And I think the Stoic saw that level of awe

999
00:44:59,996 --> 00:45:03,636
Speaker 1: in so many things, including the moral goodness of other people. Right,

1000
00:45:04,276 --> 00:45:06,356
Speaker 1: This guy, Dakar Keltner at UC Berkeley, does a lot

1001
00:45:06,356 --> 00:45:08,516
Speaker 1: of studies of awe, and he kind of goes through

1002
00:45:08,516 --> 00:45:10,516
Speaker 1: the different cat gorys where we experience awe. Like you

1003
00:45:10,596 --> 00:45:12,876
Speaker 1: think it's like, you know, like some spiritual moment or

1004
00:45:12,876 --> 00:45:16,436
Speaker 1: taking psychedelics or the Grand Canyon. And he's like, most

1005
00:45:16,436 --> 00:45:18,236
Speaker 1: of the ones that normal people report on a day

1006
00:45:18,276 --> 00:45:20,756
Speaker 1: to day are the moral goodness of other people. Yeah,

1007
00:45:20,876 --> 00:45:23,876
Speaker 1: just like somebody did something really amazing and good, or

1008
00:45:23,916 --> 00:45:27,236
Speaker 1: somebody achieved some really interesting thing, like and I think

1009
00:45:27,316 --> 00:45:27,636
Speaker 1: there's a.

1010
00:45:27,596 --> 00:45:30,156
Speaker 2: Pair of sunglasses and they're at the Lost and Found.

1011
00:45:30,276 --> 00:45:32,596
Speaker 1: Yeah, hear of them in or you know, you're walking

1012
00:45:32,636 --> 00:45:34,636
Speaker 1: and somebody drops their idea and you see someone else

1013
00:45:34,716 --> 00:45:36,476
Speaker 1: pick up the id for them, and you're like, that's

1014
00:45:36,516 --> 00:45:36,796
Speaker 1: just you.

1015
00:45:36,716 --> 00:45:38,956
Speaker 2: See someone help a mom down a flight of stairs,

1016
00:45:38,996 --> 00:45:41,876
Speaker 2: like carry the stroller or whatever, you know, like strangers

1017
00:45:41,956 --> 00:45:44,116
Speaker 2: when yeah, oh holding the door open.

1018
00:45:44,396 --> 00:45:46,916
Speaker 1: Yes, Yeah, they're just kind of helpers around. And I

1019
00:45:46,956 --> 00:45:50,236
Speaker 1: think that the Stoics were looking for those moments of

1020
00:45:50,276 --> 00:45:53,356
Speaker 1: moral goodness. They wanted to experience them themselves and be

1021
00:45:53,436 --> 00:45:54,916
Speaker 1: the kind of person that did that stuff. But they

1022
00:45:54,956 --> 00:45:57,956
Speaker 1: also were like open to noticing it. Plus the cracks

1023
00:45:57,956 --> 00:46:00,436
Speaker 1: on the bread, right, the little, tiny, little wonderful delights

1024
00:46:00,436 --> 00:46:00,836
Speaker 1: in the world.

1025
00:46:01,156 --> 00:46:03,356
Speaker 2: You were saying, awe, It's like, how do you find

1026
00:46:03,396 --> 00:46:04,716
Speaker 2: awe in an awful world?

1027
00:46:05,396 --> 00:46:06,036
Speaker 1: Right? Like not?

1028
00:46:06,916 --> 00:46:09,556
Speaker 2: Hey, Look, if you retreat to a monastery and you

1029
00:46:09,596 --> 00:46:12,396
Speaker 2: live in the beautiful green hills of China, you know,

1030
00:46:12,956 --> 00:46:15,076
Speaker 2: open up the window and be like, wow, this is amazing.

1031
00:46:15,116 --> 00:46:17,436
Speaker 2: That's that's one thing. And it's like, I'm gonna go

1032
00:46:17,436 --> 00:46:19,596
Speaker 2: to the beach this weekend. It's going to be wonderful.

1033
00:46:19,636 --> 00:46:22,436
Speaker 2: The ocean is the ocean, But it's can you find

1034
00:46:22,716 --> 00:46:26,196
Speaker 2: the awe in the delayed flight on the way there? Yeah,

1035
00:46:26,356 --> 00:46:29,116
Speaker 2: this is the miracle of flights. Yes, And you know

1036
00:46:29,356 --> 00:46:32,076
Speaker 2: the rude person, Hey, that we're not like stabbing each

1037
00:46:32,076 --> 00:46:34,876
Speaker 2: other to death is actually pretty incredible. That the coordination

1038
00:46:35,036 --> 00:46:37,076
Speaker 2: of all of this, and you know that, can you

1039
00:46:37,156 --> 00:46:41,596
Speaker 2: find it in the in the not so awesome thing? Yeah,

1040
00:46:41,596 --> 00:46:42,916
Speaker 2: that's where the work is.

1041
00:46:43,076 --> 00:46:46,796
Speaker 1: The anthropologist Sarah Herdi, who studies you know, primates and

1042
00:46:46,836 --> 00:46:50,476
Speaker 1: primate interactions. Has this essay about getting off a flight

1043
00:46:50,516 --> 00:46:52,996
Speaker 1: where everybody stands up and everybody's like pissy and kind

1044
00:46:53,036 --> 00:46:56,076
Speaker 1: of hungry, and she's like, if this was any other species,

1045
00:46:56,196 --> 00:46:59,036
Speaker 1: like she literally says, no one would leave with their testicles,

1046
00:46:59,196 --> 00:47:01,516
Speaker 1: Like testicles would just be all over this delta fla

1047
00:47:01,716 --> 00:47:03,596
Speaker 1: like on the chairs and killing each we'd be killing

1048
00:47:03,636 --> 00:47:05,796
Speaker 1: each other. And she's like, it is amazing that we

1049
00:47:05,876 --> 00:47:07,396
Speaker 1: have when it that we get to be in one

1050
00:47:07,396 --> 00:47:09,836
Speaker 1: of the few species that all that happens is somebody

1051
00:47:09,836 --> 00:47:11,036
Speaker 1: says a nasty thing to them, we.

1052
00:47:11,076 --> 00:47:12,956
Speaker 2: Can tend to buy and large cooperate.

1053
00:47:12,996 --> 00:47:15,396
Speaker 1: And yeah, you know, so even in like the o

1054
00:47:15,476 --> 00:47:18,396
Speaker 1: hair terribleness, you can find, you know, these moments off.

1055
00:47:18,516 --> 00:47:20,676
Speaker 1: But as we were just saying, it's hard, and it's

1056
00:47:20,716 --> 00:47:22,556
Speaker 1: hard in part because our mind is built with this

1057
00:47:22,636 --> 00:47:25,276
Speaker 1: negativity bias. We instantly go to the terrible things. It

1058
00:47:25,316 --> 00:47:27,996
Speaker 1: takes no work whatsoever to find like how mad I

1059
00:47:27,996 --> 00:47:30,636
Speaker 1: am about O'Hair? Are the flights delayed? Right? But it

1060
00:47:30,716 --> 00:47:32,876
Speaker 1: takes some work to notice the neutral stuff or the

1061
00:47:32,916 --> 00:47:35,116
Speaker 1: good stuff. But this is what I think that the

1062
00:47:35,196 --> 00:47:37,156
Speaker 1: kind of training and the practice is about, right, is

1063
00:47:37,156 --> 00:47:39,996
Speaker 1: that you build up the ability to do that better

1064
00:47:40,036 --> 00:47:42,476
Speaker 1: and better. I hope you've been enjoying my conversation with

1065
00:47:42,556 --> 00:47:46,076
Speaker 1: Ryan Holiday on the Daily Stoic podcast. We'll have even

1066
00:47:46,116 --> 00:47:47,156
Speaker 1: more after.

1067
00:47:46,916 --> 00:47:49,516
Speaker 2: The break, don't you think That's the challenge of our time?

1068
00:47:49,556 --> 00:47:49,716
Speaker 1: Though?

1069
00:47:49,716 --> 00:47:52,916
Speaker 2: It is like, how do you find in so much awfulness?

1070
00:47:52,916 --> 00:47:56,876
Speaker 2: How do you not let miserable awful people which we

1071
00:47:56,956 --> 00:48:01,036
Speaker 2: see on the headlines or in the headlines. Yeah, I

1072
00:48:01,036 --> 00:48:02,876
Speaker 2: can pick up my phone right now and change my

1073
00:48:02,956 --> 00:48:05,596
Speaker 2: mood negatively if I wanted to. How do you not

1074
00:48:05,756 --> 00:48:08,236
Speaker 2: let that make you miserable? How do you not, like

1075
00:48:08,316 --> 00:48:10,076
Speaker 2: the Stokes talk about it, the best revenge is to

1076
00:48:10,116 --> 00:48:12,556
Speaker 2: not be like that? How do you find happiness in

1077
00:48:13,196 --> 00:48:15,036
Speaker 2: profoundly unhappy times?

1078
00:48:15,196 --> 00:48:17,556
Speaker 1: That's the challenge, well, one of the insights I had,

1079
00:48:17,596 --> 00:48:20,396
Speaker 1: because I think sometimes also people think an additional challenge

1080
00:48:20,396 --> 00:48:23,116
Speaker 1: of that is people think it's not moral to find

1081
00:48:23,116 --> 00:48:25,516
Speaker 1: happiness in those times? Right? How can you be the

1082
00:48:25,516 --> 00:48:28,596
Speaker 1: person that's looking away when you know the economy is

1083
00:48:28,596 --> 00:48:31,196
Speaker 1: falling apart, the climate's falling apart, the world's falling apart.

1084
00:48:31,196 --> 00:48:33,316
Speaker 1: Like you're a bad person if you're not like the

1085
00:48:33,356 --> 00:48:35,716
Speaker 1: idea of if you're not angry, you're not paying attention, right,

1086
00:48:36,036 --> 00:48:38,636
Speaker 1: But this winds up being an interesting empirical question for

1087
00:48:38,716 --> 00:48:41,436
Speaker 1: nerdy psychologists like me. Like that has a certain hypothesis,

1088
00:48:41,436 --> 00:48:44,916
Speaker 1: which is like, if you're not violently angry and very

1089
00:48:44,956 --> 00:48:47,556
Speaker 1: perturbed in the stoic words about this, you're not doing

1090
00:48:47,596 --> 00:48:50,556
Speaker 1: anything about it. And this guy constantin Kushlav at Georgetown

1091
00:48:50,596 --> 00:48:53,116
Speaker 1: has been studying this. He actually goes out and asks like,

1092
00:48:53,156 --> 00:48:54,716
Speaker 1: who are the people who are like showing up at

1093
00:48:54,756 --> 00:48:57,116
Speaker 1: a protest for example, for like say Black Lives Matter,

1094
00:48:57,236 --> 00:48:59,916
Speaker 1: climate justice or something, And he finds it's actually the

1095
00:48:59,956 --> 00:49:03,476
Speaker 1: people who are experiencing the least negative emotion. And you

1096
00:49:03,596 --> 00:49:05,236
Speaker 1: kind of when you reflect on it, you get that

1097
00:49:05,276 --> 00:49:07,996
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, if I'm experiencing extreme negative emotion, like

1098
00:49:07,996 --> 00:49:10,276
Speaker 1: I'm not getting out of it, and under the douvet

1099
00:49:10,316 --> 00:49:11,036
Speaker 1: about like all the.

1100
00:49:10,996 --> 00:49:14,156
Speaker 2: Typical statement of hope to go to the protest exactly.

1101
00:49:13,836 --> 00:49:16,076
Speaker 1: You think that there's some agency that you can take

1102
00:49:16,116 --> 00:49:19,716
Speaker 1: to fix it. And that set of findings has helped

1103
00:49:19,756 --> 00:49:21,396
Speaker 1: me a little bit because sometimes I kind of fall

1104
00:49:21,476 --> 00:49:24,316
Speaker 1: under that like how dare I not be upset at this?

1105
00:49:24,356 --> 00:49:26,596
Speaker 1: How dare I not be angry or sad or whatever,

1106
00:49:27,156 --> 00:49:29,436
Speaker 1: and that research suggests like, actually, if you want the

1107
00:49:29,476 --> 00:49:32,276
Speaker 1: bandwidth to make a difference, you got a ghostoic and

1108
00:49:32,316 --> 00:49:34,596
Speaker 1: regulate some of your emotions so that you're noticing the

1109
00:49:34,596 --> 00:49:38,596
Speaker 1: bad things, yes, but you're not affected perturbed by them, right,

1110
00:49:39,036 --> 00:49:41,236
Speaker 1: And in theory, that's going to give you the psychological

1111
00:49:41,276 --> 00:49:43,796
Speaker 1: bandwidth to actually fix this stuff. So I've been helped

1112
00:49:43,836 --> 00:49:46,476
Speaker 1: by recognize like, oh, it's not just not a bad

1113
00:49:46,516 --> 00:49:48,316
Speaker 1: thing to not be pissed off at all this stuff

1114
00:49:48,396 --> 00:49:50,396
Speaker 1: or participate in it to the point that it affects

1115
00:49:50,436 --> 00:49:53,356
Speaker 1: my emotions. It's actually the most effective thing I could

1116
00:49:53,356 --> 00:49:54,956
Speaker 1: do if what I want to do is act better.

1117
00:49:55,196 --> 00:49:58,236
Speaker 2: What all comes down to efficacy, right, because if you

1118
00:49:58,316 --> 00:50:03,236
Speaker 2: are up against evil or powerful interests or intractable you know,

1119
00:50:03,396 --> 00:50:06,196
Speaker 2: complex issues, The idea that you're going to bring your

1120
00:50:06,196 --> 00:50:09,036
Speaker 2: best self while you're caught up in the passions as

1121
00:50:09,156 --> 00:50:12,076
Speaker 2: the stokes it'd say, it is preposterous. No, it's precisely

1122
00:50:12,116 --> 00:50:14,476
Speaker 2: here that you need to be the most calm, the

1123
00:50:14,476 --> 00:50:17,516
Speaker 2: most in command of yourself because they're not going to

1124
00:50:17,556 --> 00:50:20,716
Speaker 2: give you anything, right, they want you to be angry.

1125
00:50:20,756 --> 00:50:23,196
Speaker 2: That's actually, I mean part of the media strategy, as

1126
00:50:23,236 --> 00:50:25,436
Speaker 2: they have disclosed. Is this idea of flooding the zone

1127
00:50:25,436 --> 00:50:29,796
Speaker 2: with shit, making everyone confused and overwhelmed, making them believe

1128
00:50:29,876 --> 00:50:32,716
Speaker 2: they're more powerful than they are, that the resistance is

1129
00:50:32,796 --> 00:50:35,316
Speaker 2: less powerful and the you know, the powers that be

1130
00:50:35,356 --> 00:50:38,556
Speaker 2: are more powerful, to make you think it's not possible,

1131
00:50:38,636 --> 00:50:41,876
Speaker 2: that it's only going to get worse, and then you

1132
00:50:41,916 --> 00:50:44,196
Speaker 2: don't do anything. That's the whole point is to make

1133
00:50:44,236 --> 00:50:49,396
Speaker 2: you irrational so you can't rationally solve for the actually

1134
00:50:49,556 --> 00:50:50,916
Speaker 2: somewhat solvable problems.

1135
00:50:51,076 --> 00:50:53,196
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that, you know, what the research

1136
00:50:53,236 --> 00:50:55,836
Speaker 1: really shows is that we're just much better at solving

1137
00:50:55,836 --> 00:50:58,476
Speaker 1: these problems when we are not be set by our

1138
00:50:58,476 --> 00:51:00,996
Speaker 1: emotional voice, right, I mean, I think this is the

1139
00:51:01,036 --> 00:51:03,676
Speaker 1: thing you forget that, like you knows. There's other cute

1140
00:51:03,676 --> 00:51:06,956
Speaker 1: study by my former colleague Susan Nolan Huximo where she

1141
00:51:06,996 --> 00:51:09,236
Speaker 1: looks at this idea that we sometimes assume and that

1142
00:51:09,276 --> 00:51:10,876
Speaker 1: like if I ruminate about this problem, like gere really

1143
00:51:10,956 --> 00:51:12,996
Speaker 1: upset about it, if it's like really affecting me, then

1144
00:51:13,076 --> 00:51:15,276
Speaker 1: then I'll find a solution. Because I think we have

1145
00:51:15,316 --> 00:51:17,036
Speaker 1: this We're not like Massachiss of wanting to be so

1146
00:51:17,116 --> 00:51:18,676
Speaker 1: upset about stuff. I think we think that this is

1147
00:51:18,716 --> 00:51:20,676
Speaker 1: the right thing to do to get to a good solution.

1148
00:51:21,156 --> 00:51:23,876
Speaker 1: But she has people either ruminate about a particular problem.

1149
00:51:23,956 --> 00:51:25,596
Speaker 1: These are college students, so it's not like someone's not

1150
00:51:25,636 --> 00:51:27,236
Speaker 1: hanging out with you. It's like these problems that aren't

1151
00:51:27,236 --> 00:51:29,036
Speaker 1: you know, the world peace and these big things we're

1152
00:51:29,036 --> 00:51:31,116
Speaker 1: worried about. But she either has people ruminate about it

1153
00:51:31,236 --> 00:51:33,556
Speaker 1: or just distract yourself, just do something else to distract

1154
00:51:33,596 --> 00:51:35,636
Speaker 1: yourself when you're thinking about this problem. And then she

1155
00:51:35,676 --> 00:51:37,916
Speaker 1: has people go through optimal solutions, and she finds up

1156
00:51:37,916 --> 00:51:39,836
Speaker 1: people who are ruminating, people who are thinking about it,

1157
00:51:39,836 --> 00:51:41,636
Speaker 1: getting so upset about it that she came up with

1158
00:51:41,676 --> 00:51:45,076
Speaker 1: the worst solutions than somebody who just distracted themselves. And

1159
00:51:45,076 --> 00:51:47,356
Speaker 1: we're like, I'm not gonna and so this is this

1160
00:51:47,396 --> 00:51:49,396
Speaker 1: is a sort of strategy I've taken with the current

1161
00:51:49,596 --> 00:51:52,436
Speaker 1: news cycle, where there's it's one thing to be informed,

1162
00:51:52,436 --> 00:51:54,996
Speaker 1: but it's another to be like destroyed by this stuff.

1163
00:51:55,356 --> 00:51:57,436
Speaker 1: And I think that like what you actually need to

1164
00:51:57,436 --> 00:52:00,276
Speaker 1: do to get informed is not is not as much

1165
00:52:00,316 --> 00:52:03,236
Speaker 1: as we think. It's not being on social media every day,

1166
00:52:03,356 --> 00:52:06,076
Speaker 1: like you're gonna hear about what's going on in twenty

1167
00:52:06,076 --> 00:52:07,316
Speaker 1: to four to forty eight hours.

1168
00:52:07,556 --> 00:52:10,236
Speaker 2: I don't need any more information to let me know

1169
00:52:10,516 --> 00:52:13,956
Speaker 2: that what they're doing is criminal, that it's cruel, that

1170
00:52:14,036 --> 00:52:17,796
Speaker 2: it's stupid, that it violates most of the laws of economics. Also,

1171
00:52:18,156 --> 00:52:21,276
Speaker 2: like I know this by now, right, and this is

1172
00:52:21,316 --> 00:52:25,156
Speaker 2: also the fundamental idea from the agents that characterist fate,

1173
00:52:25,236 --> 00:52:27,836
Speaker 2: Like when you like, even if some of the ideas

1174
00:52:27,836 --> 00:52:30,436
Speaker 2: were good, the people who are trying to execute them

1175
00:52:30,516 --> 00:52:33,116
Speaker 2: are bad people doing them for you know, motivated by

1176
00:52:33,156 --> 00:52:37,036
Speaker 2: bad reasons. So I'm a post right, So I don't

1177
00:52:37,036 --> 00:52:39,756
Speaker 2: need to follow this day to day. Like sometimes it

1178
00:52:39,756 --> 00:52:42,156
Speaker 2: can be helpful to look back historically, Like if in

1179
00:52:42,236 --> 00:52:46,476
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four you sort of actually put some thought

1180
00:52:46,516 --> 00:52:50,676
Speaker 2: into what was happening in Vietnam and the bogus reasons

1181
00:52:50,676 --> 00:52:52,996
Speaker 2: we were there, you would go, yeah, we have no

1182
00:52:53,036 --> 00:52:55,796
Speaker 2: business being here and everything we do there is wrong.

1183
00:52:56,836 --> 00:52:58,956
Speaker 2: You didn't need to then follow it day to day

1184
00:52:58,996 --> 00:53:02,716
Speaker 2: for the next seven or eight years to update your opinion.

1185
00:53:02,756 --> 00:53:05,836
Speaker 2: Your opinion was correct from the outset. Actually you need

1186
00:53:05,916 --> 00:53:09,036
Speaker 2: you could be organizing, you could be moving, you can

1187
00:53:09,156 --> 00:53:11,716
Speaker 2: there's you know, you could you could be running for office.

1188
00:53:11,716 --> 00:53:14,276
Speaker 2: There's a bunch of things you could do. But reading

1189
00:53:14,356 --> 00:53:16,516
Speaker 2: the day to day news reports is only going to

1190
00:53:16,596 --> 00:53:17,516
Speaker 2: make you despair.

1191
00:53:18,116 --> 00:53:19,676
Speaker 1: And that was when it was day to day.

1192
00:53:19,876 --> 00:53:19,996
Speaker 2: Right.

1193
00:53:20,076 --> 00:53:22,236
Speaker 1: The problem is we like, I mean, you know, yes

1194
00:53:22,516 --> 00:53:24,836
Speaker 1: to you if you only look at this stuff.

1195
00:53:24,516 --> 00:53:27,556
Speaker 2: Like a daily newspaper, Oh my god, that would be incredible.

1196
00:53:27,876 --> 00:53:30,596
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I often think about, like what would

1197
00:53:30,596 --> 00:53:33,396
Speaker 1: the stoics think about what we are? You know, just

1198
00:53:33,476 --> 00:53:37,356
Speaker 1: like the clickbaity headlines designed to like steal your emotions,

1199
00:53:37,356 --> 00:53:39,676
Speaker 1: they would be like, what what have you done?

1200
00:53:39,756 --> 00:53:41,836
Speaker 2: Like about Mark Thrus He's the head of this empire,

1201
00:53:41,916 --> 00:53:44,996
Speaker 2: so all the news, all the important he's it's all

1202
00:53:45,036 --> 00:53:48,476
Speaker 2: his purview. He would look at your and my information

1203
00:53:48,596 --> 00:53:50,996
Speaker 2: diet and be like, how do you manage? And he

1204
00:53:51,116 --> 00:53:53,756
Speaker 2: was running an empire of fifty million people in which

1205
00:53:53,756 --> 00:53:57,036
Speaker 2: information was essential, right, And he'd be like, you're just

1206
00:53:57,076 --> 00:54:00,996
Speaker 2: getting minute to minute reports about like cabinet meetings. He'd

1207
00:54:00,996 --> 00:54:03,676
Speaker 2: be like, I mean they tell me, like I've been

1208
00:54:03,676 --> 00:54:05,676
Speaker 2: at the front for the last two years. They send

1209
00:54:05,756 --> 00:54:09,436
Speaker 2: me summaries and I read that like it's insane. How

1210
00:54:09,516 --> 00:54:14,276
Speaker 2: much information? And if you're not an intelligence operative or

1211
00:54:14,436 --> 00:54:17,676
Speaker 2: a hedge fund manager, chances are you are doing nothing

1212
00:54:17,676 --> 00:54:20,556
Speaker 2: with this information but torturing you you want to get

1213
00:54:20,596 --> 00:54:22,876
Speaker 2: just enough and you want to have rooted it enough

1214
00:54:22,916 --> 00:54:26,876
Speaker 2: in psychology and history and you know, philosophy that you

1215
00:54:26,916 --> 00:54:29,676
Speaker 2: can know what's what, like you can know what's good,

1216
00:54:29,756 --> 00:54:33,356
Speaker 2: what's bad, what's cruel, what's immoral, et cetera. But you know,

1217
00:54:33,516 --> 00:54:36,236
Speaker 2: I don't think you need You don't need the minutes

1218
00:54:36,316 --> 00:54:39,036
Speaker 2: of these meetings. You're not in the cabinet.

1219
00:54:39,196 --> 00:54:41,596
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, yeah, And I think you need to

1220
00:54:41,996 --> 00:54:44,036
Speaker 1: notice how it's affecting you. This is why I always

1221
00:54:44,076 --> 00:54:46,316
Speaker 1: love you know, stealing all the ancients and pulling them together.

1222
00:54:46,316 --> 00:54:48,556
Speaker 1: I think this was something that you know, the Buddhists

1223
00:54:48,556 --> 00:54:50,756
Speaker 1: talked about a lot, right, is this idea of noticing

1224
00:54:51,236 --> 00:54:52,956
Speaker 1: every time I pick up my phone and go on

1225
00:54:53,036 --> 00:54:56,756
Speaker 1: Blue Sky, I leave with my you know, my chest clenched.

1226
00:54:56,836 --> 00:54:58,556
Speaker 1: I'm like ready to scree. You know, my husband's been

1227
00:54:58,556 --> 00:55:01,756
Speaker 1: talking about like it's like, oh, that wasn't good. But

1228
00:55:01,796 --> 00:55:05,076
Speaker 1: I think sometimes these things happen, like our emotions change

1229
00:55:05,156 --> 00:55:08,916
Speaker 1: so unconsciously, and then we can unconsciously affect other people's

1230
00:55:09,236 --> 00:55:12,036
Speaker 1: real skill to be noticing what this stuff is doing

1231
00:55:12,076 --> 00:55:14,676
Speaker 1: to you. And so I think just notice, like, you know,

1232
00:55:14,756 --> 00:55:17,036
Speaker 1: did you get the information you wanted, or is it

1233
00:55:17,476 --> 00:55:19,796
Speaker 1: maybe after or worse? Yeah?

1234
00:55:19,796 --> 00:55:21,916
Speaker 2: You exactly, Yeah, I do. I feel worse every time

1235
00:55:21,916 --> 00:55:24,276
Speaker 2: I do this? Why am I doing it over and

1236
00:55:24,276 --> 00:55:27,116
Speaker 2: over and over again expecting to feel differently? Yeah, and

1237
00:55:27,156 --> 00:55:29,316
Speaker 2: it's time just like you know, what are the I

1238
00:55:29,356 --> 00:55:31,556
Speaker 2: think sitting down and going hey, what parts of my

1239
00:55:31,716 --> 00:55:35,676
Speaker 2: information diet can I cut out? And again that you

1240
00:55:35,716 --> 00:55:40,476
Speaker 2: have a duty to be an informed, participating citizen. But

1241
00:55:40,596 --> 00:55:43,236
Speaker 2: where is the proof that this is informing you.

1242
00:55:43,556 --> 00:55:44,636
Speaker 1: Or helping you participate?

1243
00:55:44,636 --> 00:55:46,516
Speaker 2: Exactly? Yeah, exactly yeah.

1244
00:55:46,596 --> 00:55:48,956
Speaker 1: Catherine Price, who's been on my podcast The Happiness Lab

1245
00:55:48,996 --> 00:55:50,556
Speaker 1: a Bunch, She has this lovely book called How to

1246
00:55:50,596 --> 00:55:52,196
Speaker 1: Break Up with Your Phone, where she kind of argues

1247
00:55:52,196 --> 00:55:53,396
Speaker 1: you don't need to break up with your phone, you

1248
00:55:53,436 --> 00:55:55,356
Speaker 1: need to take it, like to couples counseling for kind

1249
00:55:55,356 --> 00:55:57,956
Speaker 1: of situations like this with the news. She has this

1250
00:55:58,036 --> 00:56:01,756
Speaker 1: acronym she uses www whenever she tries to interact with

1251
00:56:01,756 --> 00:56:04,556
Speaker 1: her social media, which stands for what for, Why now?

1252
00:56:04,596 --> 00:56:06,916
Speaker 1: And what else? Like what was this for? Was there

1253
00:56:06,916 --> 00:56:08,676
Speaker 1: a purpose to it? Was I trying to check some

1254
00:56:08,676 --> 00:56:10,756
Speaker 1: effect about what was happening in the news, or was

1255
00:56:10,756 --> 00:56:13,356
Speaker 1: I just like sucked in right? Why now? And this

1256
00:56:13,396 --> 00:56:15,676
Speaker 1: is like kind of mindfulness, like what drew you in?

1257
00:56:16,116 --> 00:56:18,316
Speaker 1: You already a little anxious and that made you scroll

1258
00:56:18,356 --> 00:56:20,196
Speaker 1: even more so you kind of you know, created your

1259
00:56:20,236 --> 00:56:20,956
Speaker 1: own doom.

1260
00:56:20,756 --> 00:56:23,316
Speaker 2: Spiral, frustrated tired board.

1261
00:56:23,076 --> 00:56:25,036
Speaker 1: Right, like all these things that if we were, you know,

1262
00:56:25,116 --> 00:56:27,156
Speaker 1: following the stoics, we'd just find some other way to

1263
00:56:27,236 --> 00:56:29,876
Speaker 1: notice and find somebody to do it. But the biggest

1264
00:56:29,876 --> 00:56:32,676
Speaker 1: one what else? Right, there's an opportunity cost whenever you're

1265
00:56:32,716 --> 00:56:35,236
Speaker 1: spending your limited time, you know, moving up to your

1266
00:56:35,236 --> 00:56:38,076
Speaker 1: eventual you know deaths, right, like doing this stuff and

1267
00:56:38,116 --> 00:56:39,876
Speaker 1: like what you know, what else could you be doing

1268
00:56:39,916 --> 00:56:42,756
Speaker 1: with that time that might fit with your higher ideals

1269
00:56:42,796 --> 00:56:45,076
Speaker 1: and your values better? And the acronym has kind of

1270
00:56:45,076 --> 00:56:47,116
Speaker 1: helped me because sometimes I'll you know, you probably do this.

1271
00:56:47,116 --> 00:56:48,756
Speaker 1: So you just find yourself with your phone in your hand,

1272
00:56:48,796 --> 00:56:52,436
Speaker 1: your midstream you're like, wait, www, Like I was being

1273
00:56:52,476 --> 00:56:54,476
Speaker 1: avoidant because I was avoiding some other problem, and now

1274
00:56:54,476 --> 00:56:56,876
Speaker 1: I'm anxious about this other thing, and like I could

1275
00:56:56,876 --> 00:56:58,476
Speaker 1: put this down and take a walk, or I could

1276
00:56:58,476 --> 00:57:00,196
Speaker 1: put this down and go talk to my husband or something.

1277
00:57:00,276 --> 00:57:01,796
Speaker 2: Yeah, my wife and I try to like when we

1278
00:57:01,836 --> 00:57:03,956
Speaker 2: see each other, you know, really getting sacked in the

1279
00:57:03,956 --> 00:57:06,356
Speaker 2: phone we go, you don't want to be doing that,

1280
00:57:05,956 --> 00:57:09,756
Speaker 2: and then as soon as you kind of the trance,

1281
00:57:09,836 --> 00:57:12,916
Speaker 2: you're like, oh yeah, but I'm like it was designed

1282
00:57:12,956 --> 00:57:16,796
Speaker 2: by the smartest people with the best technology for the

1283
00:57:16,836 --> 00:57:20,636
Speaker 2: same reason the casino doesn't have clocks or windows, and

1284
00:57:20,756 --> 00:57:22,716
Speaker 2: you just need someone to snap you out of the

1285
00:57:22,916 --> 00:57:26,036
Speaker 2: hypnosis a little bit and then you can make you

1286
00:57:26,076 --> 00:57:28,516
Speaker 2: can make a better new decision instead of just con

1287
00:57:29,236 --> 00:57:32,076
Speaker 2: the continuing the decision that you already made.

1288
00:57:32,196 --> 00:57:34,116
Speaker 1: I mean, that's another thing I'm constantly thinking about what

1289
00:57:34,116 --> 00:57:35,636
Speaker 1: the stoics would think about. You know, we just talked

1290
00:57:35,636 --> 00:57:38,516
Speaker 1: about like the information overload that we're all experiencing, the

1291
00:57:38,596 --> 00:57:41,716
Speaker 1: kind of fire hose. How's the stoics would be fascinated

1292
00:57:41,756 --> 00:57:44,556
Speaker 1: by the trance? Right, There's so much stuff now that

1293
00:57:44,636 --> 00:57:46,316
Speaker 1: sucks us into a trance. And I think, you know,

1294
00:57:46,316 --> 00:57:47,996
Speaker 1: the Buddhist had a different take on that, which is like,

1295
00:57:48,036 --> 00:57:49,756
Speaker 1: you want to be president in the trance's batch. For

1296
00:57:49,756 --> 00:57:52,476
Speaker 1: that reason, I think the Stoics think you're the trance

1297
00:57:52,516 --> 00:57:54,756
Speaker 1: causes you to miss out and so many positive motions

1298
00:57:54,796 --> 00:57:57,996
Speaker 1: and often is indirectly sucking you into lots of negative

1299
00:57:57,996 --> 00:57:58,676
Speaker 1: emotions too.

1300
00:57:59,196 --> 00:58:03,156
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, anything that had power over you, they would

1301
00:58:03,156 --> 00:58:06,236
Speaker 2: have been very skeptical of So you're like, I can't

1302
00:58:06,236 --> 00:58:08,716
Speaker 2: not do this thing. They'd be like, well, yeah this

1303
00:58:08,556 --> 00:58:09,036
Speaker 2: is stuff.

1304
00:58:09,156 --> 00:58:10,276
Speaker 1: Yeah, you gotta get away from that.

1305
00:58:10,756 --> 00:58:12,916
Speaker 2: So you have the momentumry ring. And then what's the

1306
00:58:12,956 --> 00:58:13,676
Speaker 2: other bracelet?

1307
00:58:13,756 --> 00:58:16,556
Speaker 1: So the other bracelet, which actually my producer Ryan is

1308
00:58:16,596 --> 00:58:18,636
Speaker 1: my co writer for my podcast The happeningest Lab gave

1309
00:58:18,676 --> 00:58:21,476
Speaker 1: me is it's an arrow with two arrow points that

1310
00:58:21,556 --> 00:58:23,796
Speaker 1: goes around as a bracelet. Sometimes it stabs me because

1311
00:58:23,796 --> 00:58:26,196
Speaker 1: it's very sharp, but that's throwing me. The parable the

1312
00:58:26,196 --> 00:58:28,036
Speaker 1: second arrow, which comes from the Buddhist So if you

1313
00:58:28,036 --> 00:58:30,956
Speaker 1: don't know it, Buddha is talking to his followers and

1314
00:58:31,116 --> 00:58:33,196
Speaker 1: he asked his followers, if you're walking down the street

1315
00:58:33,236 --> 00:58:34,876
Speaker 1: and someone shoots you with an arrow, is that bad?

1316
00:58:34,916 --> 00:58:37,236
Speaker 1: And the followers are like, yeah, kind of seems like

1317
00:58:37,236 --> 00:58:39,436
Speaker 1: that sucks. Like so it says, okay, imagine you're walking

1318
00:58:39,476 --> 00:58:41,116
Speaker 1: on the streets, someone shoots you with the first arrow,

1319
00:58:41,156 --> 00:58:44,356
Speaker 1: but then they also, immediately after that shoot the second

1320
00:58:44,436 --> 00:58:46,916
Speaker 1: arrow too. Is the second arrow is that worse? And

1321
00:58:46,916 --> 00:58:48,956
Speaker 1: the followers are like, yeah, it sucks? Do I says much,

1322
00:58:48,996 --> 00:58:51,196
Speaker 1: just get shot by a second arrow? So Buddha says,

1323
00:58:51,476 --> 00:58:54,196
Speaker 1: first arrow is the circumstances of life. That's your car

1324
00:58:54,236 --> 00:58:56,596
Speaker 1: doesn't start, that's you break your knee, that's your hair

1325
00:58:56,676 --> 00:58:59,076
Speaker 1: up and your flight's delayed. You don't have any control

1326
00:58:59,076 --> 00:59:01,436
Speaker 1: over that. That's the world shooting with the arrow. But

1327
00:59:01,476 --> 00:59:04,116
Speaker 1: the second arrow is usually the one you shoot yourself with.

1328
00:59:04,436 --> 00:59:06,996
Speaker 1: That's that I get really pissed off at the you know,

1329
00:59:07,076 --> 00:59:09,556
Speaker 1: the delayed flight. I'm angry and I'm busy. My husband

1330
00:59:09,596 --> 00:59:11,676
Speaker 1: when I break my knee or whatever it is, and

1331
00:59:11,676 --> 00:59:14,116
Speaker 1: he's like, you don't have any control over that first arrow.

1332
00:59:14,156 --> 00:59:17,436
Speaker 1: But the second arrow you are shooting yourself with. And

1333
00:59:17,476 --> 00:59:19,556
Speaker 1: in my case, in the worst moments, it's not just

1334
00:59:19,596 --> 00:59:21,556
Speaker 1: a second arrow, it's like a sixteenth and a second

1335
00:59:21,596 --> 00:59:23,436
Speaker 1: day arrow, because like you know, I've like, you know,

1336
00:59:23,516 --> 00:59:26,516
Speaker 1: somebody at work does something stupid. Hours later, I'm talking

1337
00:59:26,516 --> 00:59:27,636
Speaker 1: to a friend and I'm like, oh my god, I

1338
00:59:27,676 --> 00:59:30,356
Speaker 1: can't believe that person did that. And it's like the

1339
00:59:30,396 --> 00:59:33,636
Speaker 1: person's action is done. This is hours later, and so

1340
00:59:34,116 --> 00:59:36,756
Speaker 1: it's a Buddhist you know, parable in a buddhistradition. But

1341
00:59:36,796 --> 00:59:38,676
Speaker 1: I think if it's so much with the stoics, it's

1342
00:59:38,676 --> 00:59:41,596
Speaker 1: like the one arrow, let that go because like you

1343
00:59:41,636 --> 00:59:43,916
Speaker 1: can't control it, you know, ignore it, deal with it.

1344
00:59:44,356 --> 00:59:47,276
Speaker 1: But the second arrow, it's on you. You definitely can

1345
00:59:47,836 --> 00:59:51,116
Speaker 1: control that one. And so for me that's been really

1346
00:59:51,116 --> 00:59:53,676
Speaker 1: helpful is like, is this the first arrow or is

1347
00:59:53,716 --> 00:59:56,196
Speaker 1: this the second arrow? Sometimes my producer Ryan, who gave

1348
00:59:56,236 --> 00:59:58,476
Speaker 1: me the thing, Well, if I'm complaining about something over text,

1349
00:59:58,476 --> 01:00:00,396
Speaker 1: he's based on Lenon's. We're often texting each other. He'll

1350
01:00:00,436 --> 01:00:04,036
Speaker 1: text me that archeria emoji archi opr and I'm like, okay,

1351
01:00:04,116 --> 01:00:05,836
Speaker 1: fair enough to shut up. Moving on.

1352
01:00:06,076 --> 01:00:08,636
Speaker 2: Well, Epictheta said, you know, it's not things that upset us,

1353
01:00:08,676 --> 01:00:10,996
Speaker 2: it's our pag about things, and our opinion about things

1354
01:00:11,036 --> 01:00:14,396
Speaker 2: is the second era, right, it happened. It is bad

1355
01:00:14,916 --> 01:00:19,156
Speaker 2: it happened. I'm harmed by it happened because that person

1356
01:00:19,236 --> 01:00:22,036
Speaker 2: is an asshole and they purposely targeted me. That's the

1357
01:00:22,156 --> 01:00:26,676
Speaker 2: second arrow. Stuff, the story we tell ourselves about it,

1358
01:00:26,716 --> 01:00:28,276
Speaker 2: I'll never recover, et cetera.

1359
01:00:28,396 --> 01:00:31,516
Speaker 1: And it's so amazing just how differently you feel when

1360
01:00:31,556 --> 01:00:35,356
Speaker 1: you change the story. My father in law passed away recently,

1361
01:00:35,396 --> 01:00:37,796
Speaker 1: and you know, everything was discombobulated, and I was like,

1362
01:00:37,916 --> 01:00:40,316
Speaker 1: you know, we weren't doing stuff and I found myself

1363
01:00:40,356 --> 01:00:42,796
Speaker 1: remembering that, like, hey, this is a possibility in people's lives.

1364
01:00:42,876 --> 01:00:45,636
Speaker 1: People die, and you know, was that like you know,

1365
01:00:45,716 --> 01:00:47,836
Speaker 1: a parking lot or something and somebody like pulled into

1366
01:00:47,876 --> 01:00:50,036
Speaker 1: my space and my instant reaction other than like that

1367
01:00:50,076 --> 01:00:52,956
Speaker 1: person's what whatever, like maybe a family member of theirs died.

1368
01:00:52,996 --> 01:00:55,036
Speaker 1: It was just like in the possibility space for me,

1369
01:00:55,556 --> 01:00:57,756
Speaker 1: and that just like changed my reaction to everything. Like

1370
01:00:57,836 --> 01:01:00,116
Speaker 1: instead of being pissy, I had like compassion. I'm like,

1371
01:01:00,156 --> 01:01:02,996
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, cut in line, you know, do this thing,

1372
01:01:03,556 --> 01:01:06,196
Speaker 1: and that just feels so different. But it really was

1373
01:01:06,236 --> 01:01:08,316
Speaker 1: just like a slight change in the possibility space of

1374
01:01:08,396 --> 01:01:11,236
Speaker 1: which handle I was grabbing to interpret this event, and

1375
01:01:11,316 --> 01:01:14,076
Speaker 1: you just realize that's possible for you all the time.

1376
01:01:14,356 --> 01:01:17,636
Speaker 2: Yeah, in a way, some of our grief is the

1377
01:01:17,676 --> 01:01:19,996
Speaker 2: second arrow. Not that we're sad that we lost them,

1378
01:01:20,116 --> 01:01:20,436
Speaker 2: this is.

1379
01:01:20,356 --> 01:01:21,836
Speaker 1: The one I have to say. It's like, if I

1380
01:01:21,916 --> 01:01:24,316
Speaker 1: get it, I know the stokes are right, but like, wow,

1381
01:01:24,476 --> 01:01:26,516
Speaker 1: is this one hard? Like your kid dies, You're like, well,

1382
01:01:26,516 --> 01:01:28,076
Speaker 1: it wasn't really mine in the first place.

1383
01:01:28,156 --> 01:01:32,396
Speaker 2: Moving on, because I feel like the grief of just

1384
01:01:32,516 --> 01:01:37,036
Speaker 2: loss is unavoidable and a fact, right, I don't think

1385
01:01:37,076 --> 01:01:39,036
Speaker 2: any of the Stokes were like, oh they were mortal

1386
01:01:39,036 --> 01:01:42,116
Speaker 2: when I met them. I don't think anyone's actually doing that, right,

1387
01:01:42,156 --> 01:01:44,516
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure it's healthy to do that. But

1388
01:01:45,276 --> 01:01:48,156
Speaker 2: the decision to say be haunted by the memory of

1389
01:01:48,196 --> 01:01:51,996
Speaker 2: this person is a loss on top of the loss.

1390
01:01:52,036 --> 01:01:54,156
Speaker 2: So while they were alive, every time you thought of

1391
01:01:54,196 --> 01:01:57,756
Speaker 2: them it was positive, right, yeah, And when you saw

1392
01:01:57,796 --> 01:02:01,556
Speaker 2: them it was positive. And now they're gone, and you know,

1393
01:02:01,596 --> 01:02:04,196
Speaker 2: you think of the anniversary of their death, or you know,

1394
01:02:04,796 --> 01:02:06,476
Speaker 2: every once in a while, like I think about how

1395
01:02:06,476 --> 01:02:09,116
Speaker 2: many dead people are on my phone? Oh yeah, right,

1396
01:02:09,276 --> 01:02:12,716
Speaker 2: because I type in the letter C and then oh shit,

1397
01:02:13,196 --> 01:02:18,676
Speaker 2: I forgot. But the feeling of sadness, loss, bitterness, whatever,

1398
01:02:18,876 --> 01:02:22,876
Speaker 2: I could also feel joy and love and gratitude. And

1399
01:02:22,916 --> 01:02:25,836
Speaker 2: so there's this second and Seneca talks about this in

1400
01:02:25,836 --> 01:02:28,116
Speaker 2: one of his consolation essays where he's like, do you

1401
01:02:28,156 --> 01:02:32,556
Speaker 2: think your father would want you to break down in

1402
01:02:32,756 --> 01:02:35,436
Speaker 2: sadness every time you think of him? That would have

1403
01:02:35,436 --> 01:02:38,516
Speaker 2: been like if as he was leaving life, he was like,

1404
01:02:38,556 --> 01:02:40,836
Speaker 2: by the way, your memory's going to haunt your daughter?

1405
01:02:41,396 --> 01:02:44,156
Speaker 2: Like he'd be like, no, So that's the worst thing

1406
01:02:44,356 --> 01:02:48,916
Speaker 2: all anyone would want is to be remembered fondly and

1407
01:02:48,996 --> 01:02:53,876
Speaker 2: be a positive, ongoing sort of energy in your life.

1408
01:02:53,916 --> 01:02:57,196
Speaker 2: And that is on total control of that, especially right

1409
01:02:57,276 --> 01:03:00,636
Speaker 2: as it happens. But as time goes by, I think

1410
01:03:00,676 --> 01:03:03,916
Speaker 2: you get to choose whether how you think about that

1411
01:03:04,116 --> 01:03:05,836
Speaker 2: memory and what that death means to you.

1412
01:03:05,956 --> 01:03:08,196
Speaker 1: And I think the stoics were kind of hedging against

1413
01:03:08,236 --> 01:03:11,516
Speaker 1: a certain form of grief, which is like, I didn't

1414
01:03:11,596 --> 01:03:14,236
Speaker 1: do right by that person, I didn't spend time with them, right,

1415
01:03:14,316 --> 01:03:17,116
Speaker 1: Like in theory, they're hedging against the regret of what happened,

1416
01:03:17,156 --> 01:03:19,676
Speaker 1: so that you know, when a person you care about passes,

1417
01:03:19,716 --> 01:03:21,996
Speaker 1: you're like, I recognize they were mortal the whole time,

1418
01:03:21,996 --> 01:03:24,516
Speaker 1: and no, I'm not grieving, but I don't regret what

1419
01:03:24,556 --> 01:03:26,436
Speaker 1: I did when they were alive. I spent the time

1420
01:03:26,716 --> 01:03:28,876
Speaker 1: that I could have spent with them. I invested as much,

1421
01:03:29,156 --> 01:03:31,996
Speaker 1: like you know, I'm washing my hands of the regret

1422
01:03:32,076 --> 01:03:35,316
Speaker 1: part of it, and that that does feel like a

1423
01:03:35,356 --> 01:03:36,316
Speaker 1: different way to grieve.

1424
01:03:36,476 --> 01:03:39,236
Speaker 2: I think they're certainly not holding onto the grudge. Yeah

1425
01:03:39,276 --> 01:03:42,036
Speaker 2: they're dead, Yeah, so I'm not sure they want you

1426
01:03:42,236 --> 01:03:44,716
Speaker 2: to be like I should have called more. You know,

1427
01:03:44,916 --> 01:03:48,276
Speaker 2: they have they have let that go. You probably can too.

1428
01:03:49,036 --> 01:03:51,156
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you do it in advance, then then

1429
01:03:51,196 --> 01:03:53,636
Speaker 1: everybody you know, then it's happy all the way through.

1430
01:03:53,876 --> 01:03:56,636
Speaker 2: Yeah. But yeah, the second arrow of like, Okay, you

1431
01:03:56,756 --> 01:03:59,436
Speaker 2: lost them too soon and now you feel guilty all

1432
01:03:59,436 --> 01:04:01,676
Speaker 2: the time. Yeah, that like you did lose them too

1433
01:04:01,716 --> 01:04:04,756
Speaker 2: soon and you could have done better. But the decision

1434
01:04:04,796 --> 01:04:08,396
Speaker 2: to wake up today and feel like it's a shit

1435
01:04:08,436 --> 01:04:11,716
Speaker 2: about it. That's the second arrow or third arrow, fourth arrow, that's.

1436
01:04:11,596 --> 01:04:14,356
Speaker 1: Right, and recognize the second arrows on you Like it's

1437
01:04:14,596 --> 01:04:17,116
Speaker 1: sort of you know, like two things right, Like this

1438
01:04:17,156 --> 01:04:18,756
Speaker 1: is in the second category. This is the thing that

1439
01:04:18,836 --> 01:04:21,516
Speaker 1: you can control and it might be hard and it

1440
01:04:21,596 --> 01:04:24,476
Speaker 1: might take some work, but you actually can change your

1441
01:04:24,476 --> 01:04:25,236
Speaker 1: opinion about it.

1442
01:04:25,356 --> 01:04:28,196
Speaker 2: Yeah, Fate took them from you, but you are taking

1443
01:04:28,236 --> 01:04:29,396
Speaker 2: this out on yourself. Yes.

1444
01:04:29,516 --> 01:04:33,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very stoic w to from the second arrow.

1445
01:04:34,076 --> 01:04:37,036
Speaker 2: No, it's so beautiful. How like I do know there's

1446
01:04:37,036 --> 01:04:40,476
Speaker 2: a couple stoic like archery lessons. I mean they had

1447
01:04:40,476 --> 01:04:42,476
Speaker 2: the same technology and they were alive at the same time.

1448
01:04:42,556 --> 01:04:44,316
Speaker 1: Well, I was wondering, like it's just people getting shot

1449
01:04:44,356 --> 01:04:46,836
Speaker 1: with arrows all over the place, Buddhist ds, Like what

1450
01:04:46,876 --> 01:04:48,716
Speaker 1: was going on and like this ach at times for you.

1451
01:04:48,836 --> 01:04:50,476
Speaker 2: I know, both the Stokes and the Buddhists use that

1452
01:04:50,596 --> 01:04:53,356
Speaker 2: like muddy water one, and so you're just like, even

1453
01:04:53,396 --> 01:04:56,636
Speaker 2: the metaphors are the same. Yeah, like they're just coming

1454
01:04:56,676 --> 01:04:59,716
Speaker 2: on the same essential truths. And it's very rare that

1455
01:04:59,756 --> 01:05:02,316
Speaker 2: you come across any of the philosophical schools and you're like,

1456
01:05:03,156 --> 01:05:05,796
Speaker 2: this is something totally different than any of the others.

1457
01:05:06,076 --> 01:05:10,316
Speaker 2: And to go to the earlier point, this totally contradicts

1458
01:05:10,316 --> 01:05:11,756
Speaker 2: all the science about this subject.

1459
01:05:12,036 --> 01:05:13,756
Speaker 1: Well as well. I was saying the Buddhists. There are

1460
01:05:13,756 --> 01:05:15,436
Speaker 1: the cases where I like the Buddhists better than the Stones.

1461
01:05:15,556 --> 01:05:16,916
Speaker 1: Here's the case where I like the Stoics better than

1462
01:05:16,916 --> 01:05:19,916
Speaker 1: a Buddhist, which is that the Buddhists were like really

1463
01:05:20,796 --> 01:05:22,716
Speaker 1: into the idea of suffering, not into it like you

1464
01:05:22,756 --> 01:05:25,396
Speaker 1: should get it, just like it is inevitable, it is there,

1465
01:05:25,476 --> 01:05:28,716
Speaker 1: it is centered, and I think the Stoics were like, yeah,

1466
01:05:28,716 --> 01:05:31,676
Speaker 1: there's the perturbations, but like it's number two, like it's

1467
01:05:31,716 --> 01:05:34,396
Speaker 1: these are conceptually, these are two distinct categories. So whereas

1468
01:05:34,396 --> 01:05:36,116
Speaker 1: the Buddhists were like, the central is suffering and then

1469
01:05:36,156 --> 01:05:37,956
Speaker 1: you got to do the stuff around it. The Stoics

1470
01:05:37,956 --> 01:05:39,996
Speaker 1: were like, I don't know, man, these are two categories

1471
01:05:40,036 --> 01:05:41,676
Speaker 1: and we could kind of think about them differently, and

1472
01:05:41,676 --> 01:05:44,276
Speaker 1: so that's always given me a little bit more hope.

1473
01:05:44,436 --> 01:05:49,036
Speaker 2: I also think, you know, living in Western civilization, there's

1474
01:05:49,076 --> 01:05:52,876
Speaker 2: something about the Stoics that that is not just familiar

1475
01:05:53,396 --> 01:05:55,916
Speaker 2: but sort of practical in the sense where it's like,

1476
01:05:56,596 --> 01:06:00,276
Speaker 2: somebody's got to run for office. Yeah, he's gotta, man,

1477
01:06:00,356 --> 01:06:03,996
Speaker 2: the sewers, you know, Like I think Buddhism is a

1478
01:06:04,156 --> 01:06:08,596
Speaker 2: more spiritual and sort of individualistic pursuit, and there's something

1479
01:06:08,636 --> 01:06:12,516
Speaker 2: about Stuf philosophy that is like, okay, but this will

1480
01:06:12,516 --> 01:06:15,956
Speaker 2: work for society, not a band of roving monks.

1481
01:06:16,036 --> 01:06:18,196
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean the stocks were like the og like

1482
01:06:18,396 --> 01:06:20,876
Speaker 1: advice column, self help, you know, like it was going

1483
01:06:20,956 --> 01:06:22,796
Speaker 1: to be like not in the posh like you know,

1484
01:06:23,076 --> 01:06:25,116
Speaker 1: like books and stuff like it was gonna be in whatever,

1485
01:06:25,156 --> 01:06:27,996
Speaker 1: the like tabloid magazine, TikTok video of the time was

1486
01:06:28,036 --> 01:06:30,396
Speaker 1: going to be minus the terial algorithmic stuff.

1487
01:06:30,396 --> 01:06:32,276
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think the Buddhists and the Cynics are

1488
01:06:32,316 --> 01:06:34,156
Speaker 2: closer to each other in the sense where they're like,

1489
01:06:34,596 --> 01:06:38,316
Speaker 2: this is all bullshit, man, you know, And the stokes

1490
01:06:38,316 --> 01:06:41,476
Speaker 2: are like a little some of it is, but like.

1491
01:06:42,196 --> 01:06:44,196
Speaker 1: Dude, you gotta get through your day, you know, yeah.

1492
01:06:43,956 --> 01:06:47,036
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly like you. You have a kid and they're hungry,

1493
01:06:47,116 --> 01:06:49,236
Speaker 2: so how are you going to feed them? You know,

1494
01:06:49,276 --> 01:06:52,116
Speaker 2: there's just like there's a sort of this is life,

1495
01:06:52,196 --> 01:06:56,076
Speaker 2: this is the human organism we were born into, and

1496
01:06:56,116 --> 01:06:58,636
Speaker 2: we have to figure out how to operate collectively in

1497
01:06:58,676 --> 01:07:00,556
Speaker 2: this city that we live in.

1498
01:07:00,636 --> 01:07:03,276
Speaker 1: And there's like positive emotion on the other side of that, right,

1499
01:07:03,316 --> 01:07:05,716
Speaker 1: there's like these kind of opportunities for growth or humor

1500
01:07:05,756 --> 01:07:07,036
Speaker 1: and all these things we were talking about.

1501
01:07:07,316 --> 01:07:08,716
Speaker 2: Well, this is awesome. You want to check out some

1502
01:07:08,716 --> 01:07:09,396
Speaker 2: books first?

1503
01:07:09,476 --> 01:07:10,516
Speaker 1: Yeah, please, let's do it.

1504
01:07:16,396 --> 01:07:18,476
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this

1505
01:07:18,556 --> 01:07:21,596
Speaker 2: podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean

1506
01:07:21,756 --> 01:07:23,676
Speaker 2: so much to us and it would really help the show.

1507
01:07:23,956 --> 01:07:30,956
Speaker 2: We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.