1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,640 Speaker 1: I hope journalists can stay on a whole bunch of 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: stories that are coming out of this whole mess economic 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: part of it, to the virus part of it, the 4 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: hot the health care part of it, all these different things, 5 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: you know, and and really and really follow them to 6 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,239 Speaker 1: the end and see what stuff at the beginning, Uh, 7 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: we were we were misled about or um assumptions were 8 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: made that turned out to be true on all these 9 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 1: different things, and and one of them is where this 10 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: stupid virus started. Indeed, and I think looking at it 11 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: in a fair and and kind of neutral way, just 12 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: a curious way, as opposed to a partisan ways is 13 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: absolutely and that's what we're hoping to do with Josh Rogan, 14 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: who's a columnist for the Global Opinion section of the 15 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: WAPO the Washington Post. He writes about foreign policy and 16 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: national security, and joins us, Now, Josh, our you sir, great, 17 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: great to be on. Thanks. Oh, it's it's our pleasure, 18 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: Thanks very much so. Uh, this story is absolutely terrific 19 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: and interesting and well written. First of all, but it appears, 20 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,279 Speaker 1: perhaps well appear certainly that some of our diplomats were 21 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: really worried about the lab security and the practices of 22 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: a lab in Wuhan studying. Get this coronavirus is from bats? 23 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,119 Speaker 1: H what worried them? What was going on there? Right? Well, 24 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: you're setup was was spot on. You know, the origin 25 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: story about the coronavirus is not just about blame or partisanship. 26 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: It's about finding out exactly what happened because that's crucial 27 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: scientific information for how we fight the virus now and 28 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: prevent the next pandemic in the future, which will shortly come. Okay, 29 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: And what the original Chinese government story was that it 30 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: came from this Wuhan seafood market, and that's what people 31 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: just basically went with for a while. Over the last 32 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: few weeks, that story broke down for several interesting reasons. One, 33 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: the market didn't sell bats to the best under from 34 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: the coronavirus or from like a thousand miles away. Three 35 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: Chinese researchers pointed out that actually the first cases had 36 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: nothing to do with the market, so it probably didn't 37 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: come from the market, for they bleached the market. Like 38 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: the government, they like anatize the whole thing, which is 39 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: the opposite of what you were do if you were 40 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: engaged in a genuine forensic investigation into the market, and 41 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: so people inside the government started to think, Oh my god, 42 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: the US conments, Oh my god, what's the what's the 43 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: other possible theory? Oh what about these two back coronavirus 44 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: research labs right next to the market. Could that be 45 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: a thing? They dug up this cable from tweight from 46 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: these experts who were so concerned about it at the 47 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: time that they went to this Wuhan Institute of Virology 48 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: and they were so shocked by what they saw that 49 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:34,839 Speaker 1: they tried to sound the alarm. They tried to say, 50 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: oh my god, this place is doing risky back coronavirus research. 51 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: It's not safe, and if we don't do something about it, 52 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: there could be another pandemic that comes from this research 53 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: from these labs. And now that we have a backronavirus 54 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: pandemic coming from the lab, it's starting to look like 55 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: make a lot of sense. It's not proof, but it's evident. 56 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: So how close are the labs to the market that 57 00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: people were blaming. So the Wuhan c DC lab, which 58 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: is like the lower level lap at biosecurity level two, 59 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: which is like, you know, better than your high school, 60 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: but not a lot better that one'st from the Wow 61 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: Virology is like twenty miles away. That's the bio level 62 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: four LAP that's supposed to be the best of the best. 63 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: But what the cables reveal is that the scientists there, 64 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: even though they had this level four LAP, told them 65 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: that they couldn't keep it safe because they didn't have 66 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: the right training. And what the U s ms are 67 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: saying is like, hey, why don't we give them more training? 68 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: But the training never came. Now, Josh, we were joking 69 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: earlier as we were looking ahead to your interview that 70 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: the guys were using books to prop open doors to 71 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: get a breeze through and whatever. But where the flip 72 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: flops and shorts. Yeah, exactly, bringing the bats home as 73 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: as pets. Uh. But did they have specifics on what 74 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: they were not doing there? Right? So yeah, So again, 75 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: and to be clear, it's just a theory. And the 76 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: reason it's just a series because the Chinese government has 77 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: suppressed all the information, silenced all the science tists, jailed 78 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: also journalists you know, withheld all the samples, shut down 79 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: all the labs that we're publishing the genomes, so we 80 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: can't prove it because they don't want us to prove it, 81 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: because they will never let us find this sucking gun 82 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: if there is a smoking gun, because that's where they work. Uh, 83 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: you know, but you know, in the end, either it 84 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: came from there or it didn't. And the only way 85 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 1: we can find out is if we get in there, 86 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: And that's what these cables are calling for, is more 87 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: investigation into into what happened there so we can figure 88 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: this out one way or the other. It also makes 89 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: more sense the way they responded with the stuff you 90 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: just talked about jailing journalists and the doctors disappearing and 91 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. If a virus just kind 92 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: of organically came out of nowhere, it's nobody's fault. Um, 93 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: these things have happened in world history. You wouldn't necessarily 94 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: have to react that way. But if it actually came 95 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: out one of your labs, which you have a responsibility for, 96 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: and you're trying to promote to the world that your 97 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: your communist government, your communist way of life is the 98 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: most efficient system possible, then you can imagine why you 99 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: go to such great lengths to cover it up. Well, yeah, 100 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: that's right. I mean, I wouldn't discount the fact that 101 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: they would jail, journalists and doctors keep it. If it wasn't, 102 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: they weren't responsible because that's just how they do business 103 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: in the Chinese Communist Party system. There's no bad news, 104 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: there's no you know, every crisis is buried, every whistleblower 105 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: has disappeared, no matter what the story is. But I 106 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: do think that over the last eight weeks, after they 107 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: started suppressing the information, they started to realize that the 108 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: seafood market story wasn't catching on for like because it 109 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: make any sense, and that now they've ramped up, and 110 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: just last week they ordered all Chinese researchers to get 111 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: official government approval before putting anything about the virus origins. 112 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: So now they know that everyone's onto this story and 113 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: we don't know what they know, but we know they 114 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: know more than they're saying, more than we know. And 115 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: that's the problem. So you you add like a closed 116 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: dictatorship that's you know, has no free information flow, that 117 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: doesn't respect you know, free and open society's desires for 118 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: things like shared public health, and then you add this 119 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: extra question and it just it just it creates a 120 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: question that we have to solve because it's a life 121 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: or death issue for US. Yeah, I saw a quote 122 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: from the I think it was the CIA was one 123 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: of our intelligence agencies. I'm being quoted in a newspaper 124 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: that they think that uh, Chairman G, Dictator G might 125 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: have been as misled as the rest of the world. 126 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: And just the way the whole communist system works, they 127 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: hit it from him as much as I hit it 128 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: from us. Right. And to be clear, it's not you 129 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: know there our intell agencies don't know everything either, right, 130 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: And there are huge intel gaps and they're searching for 131 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: these answers but they haven't found them. Right. But yes, 132 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: imagine you're like a Chinese scientist and you find out 133 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: that something horrible happened in your left. Are you going 134 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: to report it to the local Communist party boss, No, 135 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: because that's the end of your life, Okay. And the 136 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: same thing if you're the local communist guys, are you 137 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: going to report it up to Beijing? No, because that's 138 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: the end of your life. So this is part of 139 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: the problem of having a closed, corrupt, you know system, 140 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: is that the incentives are all for everyone to hide 141 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: everything all the time. Uh. Nevertheless, we can't absolves of 142 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: his level of responsibility because he set the policy that 143 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: prevented them from sharing this information with the international community. 144 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: One he didn't know it. He's been hoarding the ppe. 145 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: He's been extorting the international community to shut up if 146 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: if they still want their medical equipment that they're still holding. 147 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: So even after the first set of cover ups, the 148 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: cover ups continue in those fall squarely and in GE's lap. 149 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: We're talking to Josh Rogan, columnists for the Washington Post, 150 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: and listen, call me a bitter old cold warrior if 151 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: you want, Josh, But as you pointed out, a number 152 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: of the sins and crimes are just in the very 153 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: nature of a communist regime, and as he runs a 154 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: communist regime, I'll just fault him for that. He's running 155 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: a regime that will yield nothing but misery and death. 156 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: Having said that, I really appreciate your your measured approach 157 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: on this is evidence. It's not proof. But if one 158 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,679 Speaker 1: of my golf buddies gets radiation poisoning and I'm using 159 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: uranium golf balls, I mean that's that's pretty good proof. 160 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: And the fact that there was a bat coronavirus lab 161 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: that was run shodily right where this thing exploded, that's 162 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: pretty damn solid. I mean, it wasn't good enough to 163 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: convict OJ, but it's pretty good. It's a circumstantial case 164 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: that grows larger and larger by the day. And you know, 165 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: to your point about partisanship, like listen, you know, you know, 166 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: opposition to dictatorship and repression and human rights violations and 167 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: atrocities and the suppression of science, that should be a 168 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: bipartisan consensus. There's really one thing we should be able 169 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: to agree in this country is that like freedom and 170 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: human rights and democracy are good and those things are bad. 171 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, we Americans are realizing the 172 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: polling shows us that it's not just about feeling good 173 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 1: and having you know, a good idea about the way 174 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: the world works. It's about saving our lives. That's what 175 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: the pandemic has brought to our four in like stark reality. 176 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: Josh Rogan to The Washington Post, A plus, brother, the 177 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: terrific job, great writing. I hope we can talk again. Alight, alright, great, thanks, 178 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: It's amazing, It's very good. It's amazing that communism continues though, 179 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: because she came up in that system. Most of the 180 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: higher ups grew up under communism, and they know how 181 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: it works. How come they don't understand how faulty the 182 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: system is. I think he probably spends all day every 183 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: day trying to make it better because he understands, you know, 184 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: the success of the regime and the actual happiness of 185 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: the people is how he holds onto power. Meanwhile, you 186 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: cover up like a madman. Uh. I think he probably 187 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: tries as hard as he can. It's just the nature 188 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: of the system. It is utterly horrific. If I'm gonna 189 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: disappear into a work camp or be killed if I 190 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: report the truth and it's bad news, I'm never gonna 191 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: report bad news. That's not really very complicated. Yeah. Yeah, 192 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: we're eating lunch at the same table where we dissect 193 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: the bats. Is that a problem