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Speaker 1: What do you remember about Taylor Swift dating Connor Kennedy.

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Speaker 2: What I remember at the time because I was, I

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Speaker 2: guess in my early twenties, was her buying the house

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Speaker 2: next to the Kennedy compound, and we were all like

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Speaker 2: the anitted but also we've all done crazy things. But

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Speaker 2: also the age gap thing, I didn't even clock until

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Speaker 2: I was older, and then realizing that he.

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Speaker 3: Was eighteen when they first started dating was like kind

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Speaker 3: of worrisome.

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Speaker 2: I also didn't realize until a couple of months ago

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Speaker 2: that he's.

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Speaker 3: RFK junior son. I didn't clock that at the time.

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Speaker 3: That's absolutely insane to learn about.

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Speaker 2: Yet I do remember them going to the grave site,

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Speaker 2: and I just remember the paparazzi photos and people being like,

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Speaker 2: why was she there?

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Speaker 3: This is kind of weird. I'm pretty sure she died

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Speaker 3: by suicide if I remember correctly, so kind of a

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Speaker 3: weird time for sure.

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Speaker 4: I'm George Severes, I'm Lyra Smith, and this is United

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Speaker 4: States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with

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Speaker 4: the Kennedy Dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect

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Speaker 4: of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about

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Speaker 4: the Taylor Swift Kennedy era.

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Speaker 1: Yes, an era a lot of people may have forgotten about,

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Speaker 1: but a Swifty never forgets.

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Speaker 4: That is correct. When we say Taylor Swift's Kennedy era,

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Speaker 4: we mean her documented obsession with the Kennedys around twenty

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Speaker 4: eleven twenty twelve, which culminated in her writing a song

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Speaker 4: about rfk's widow, Ethel Kennedy and then briefly dating RFK

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Speaker 4: Junior's son, Connor Kennedy in the summer of twenty twelve.

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Speaker 1: It's a modern instance where the Kennedy clan is once

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Speaker 1: again at the center of pop culture, and not just

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Speaker 1: because a Kennedy dated a major pop star. The various

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Speaker 1: dramas that surrounded Taylor Swift's relationship with the Kennedy family

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Speaker 1: at that time I played out in the tabloids and

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Speaker 1: online message boards, and even Kathy Lee Gifford became involved.

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Speaker 1: As a bonus, it was also the first time Patrick

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Speaker 1: Schwarzenegger entered the cultural conversation.

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Speaker 4: So to break it all down today, we are talking

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Speaker 4: to my favorite Swift, Ye Fran Houffner. She's a senior

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Speaker 4: newswriter at Vulture. She writes the newsletter Fran Magazine and

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Speaker 4: most importantly, she's one of the great Taylor Swift historians

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Speaker 4: of our time. Fran Welcome to the United States of Kennedy.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 4: So let's get right down to brass tacks. Tell us

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Speaker 4: about your relationship to Taylor Swift.

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Speaker 5: I got into Taylor Swift late in college, around twenty

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Speaker 5: eleven twenty twelve.

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Speaker 3: Sort of proto red era.

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Speaker 5: I had no interest in her as like a country

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Speaker 5: teen star. I felt both like too disconnected from that

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Speaker 5: music world and too disinterested in following up blonde teenager's career.

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Speaker 5: But when she started shifting to pop, and to be honest,

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Speaker 5: when she started dating at Kennedy, I became very interested

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Speaker 5: via a really good friend of mine in college who

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Speaker 5: was like, now's a great time to get in on

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Speaker 5: whatever the hell is going on with her, and I've

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Speaker 5: stuck with her mostly thick and than ever since.

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Speaker 1: I do think, even as somebody who's not a Swifty,

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Speaker 1: I would say I have some real solid background because

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Speaker 1: I'm from Nashville, Oh sure.

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Speaker 3: And I actually booked.

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Speaker 1: Her on a benefit show for the Young Democrats Clubs

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Speaker 1: WOW in freshman year, and she canceled, but luckily there

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Speaker 1: were multiple Grammy Winners as dads and moms that filled

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Speaker 1: in because it's Nashville.

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Speaker 3: I do think, out of.

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Speaker 1: All of her dating stories, rumors, etc. Like to me,

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Speaker 1: this one is the kookiest and the most fun.

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Speaker 5: Definitely, and it's the one that I think creates a

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Speaker 5: kind of lasting impact in her identity for a while

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Speaker 5: up until Joe Alwin, which I guess is not that

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Speaker 5: long in years, but it certainly ripples throughout her general esthetic.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's the only one I know of or especially

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Speaker 4: in that era, that isn't like an A list Hollywood

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Speaker 4: actor or an A list musician, because I think of

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Speaker 4: that era of Taylor as like, I mean, right after

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Speaker 4: Connor Kennedy. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think Harry

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Speaker 4: Styles was right after Connor Kennedy. And so yeah, that's

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Speaker 4: obviously the one that, you know, if I was writing

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Speaker 4: fan fiction, that's the one I would pick as someone

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Speaker 4: who is, you know, orchestrating industry plans. Obviously, I want,

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Speaker 4: like the most popular female singer to date, the most

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Speaker 4: popular male singer. And then people kept trying to attach

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Speaker 4: her to you know, Jake, Jillenhall, John Mayer, like all

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Speaker 4: these A list stars, and this one almost feels like

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Speaker 4: a peek into what she actually wants to sound like

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Speaker 4: a crazy stam And I think that's maybe why people

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Speaker 4: are obsessed with it. It's because it reveals something deeper

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Speaker 4: about her that then was sort of never explored again

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Speaker 4: in her dating history. So you said that part of

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Speaker 4: what drew you to her is the fact that she

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Speaker 4: dated to Kennedy. Were you independently interested in Kennedy lore

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Speaker 4: or was it just a funny, you know, tabloid story.

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Speaker 5: I was studying history in college, and I think the

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Speaker 5: Kennedys are a great sort of subject for a college

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Speaker 5: student because they're hot and weird and vaguely cursed, and

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Speaker 5: there are a lot of different.

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Speaker 3: Routes you can go down.

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Speaker 5: I didn't, like, specifically have a Kennedy thing, but I

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Speaker 5: have friends who were really obsessed with the Kennedys, and

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Speaker 5: it just sort of played into the interests of everyone

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Speaker 5: I was hanging out with at the time. And it

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Speaker 5: also felt to me like it was the first time

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Speaker 5: Swift was making decisions for herself in a way that

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Speaker 5: now we reckon with constantly. But it felt as though

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Speaker 5: up to that point she was very much being managed

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Speaker 5: versus the manager of her own deal totally.

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Speaker 1: Just a little give a little context on who was

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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift at twenty two years old.

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Speaker 5: She's like coming out of her ingenue status. She's pivoting

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Speaker 5: away from country music. Read is kind of the country

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Speaker 5: pop hybrid album that eventually cascades into her working with

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Speaker 5: Jack Antonoff on nineteen eighty nine, which sets forward like

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Speaker 5: pop Taylor. But this is maybe also the last era

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Speaker 5: where she is as approachable as she is in terms

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Speaker 5: of like she can show up at a party and

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Speaker 5: it maybe not make the news, at least not immediately,

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Speaker 5: but also when I was reading, reminding myself, refreshing my memory,

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Speaker 5: like she first broaches her pet interest in the Kennedys

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Speaker 5: in a New Yorker interview, and I was like, she'll

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Speaker 5: never speak to the New Yorker.

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Speaker 3: But the idea that someone would sort of very easily

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Speaker 3: be able to.

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Speaker 5: Get a hold of her, to talk with her, or

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Speaker 5: to ride around in a car with her is like

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Speaker 5: virtually non existent now or reserved only for her friends.

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Speaker 3: Who just so happened to be writers.

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Speaker 5: But this is the point at which she's making kind

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Speaker 5: of a legitimacy play as an adult artist and singer

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Speaker 5: song writer.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it seems like it was the last time she

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Speaker 4: needed the media more than the media needed her in

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Speaker 4: a sense, And you could sort of track a similar

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Speaker 4: path with someone like Beyonce too, Like the Red era,

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Speaker 4: from what I understand is like when she went from

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Speaker 4: kind of novelty, you know, like sort of a charming

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Speaker 4: young woman that was like kid friendly to like wanting

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Speaker 4: to be a major pop star. So the New Yorker

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Speaker 4: profile is interesting. We had our in our very comprehensive

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Speaker 4: research dock that we have in front of us. There's

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Speaker 4: an excerpt from it where she says, I'm just so

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Speaker 4: obsessed with the whole history of JFK and RFK, she said.

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Speaker 4: She recently announced that she had completed a nine hundred

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Speaker 4: page book called The Kennedy Women. So what do you

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Speaker 4: make of her alleged Kennedy obsession.

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Speaker 5: I think it's kind of the bridge out of her

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Speaker 5: country Americana stuff into her pop Americana stuff.

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Speaker 3: Like the Kennedy's are so pop music.

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Speaker 5: They're hot, they're maybe bisexual, you know, they're catholic. And

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Speaker 5: when she goes pop at first, she goes into this

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Speaker 5: it's like fifties, sixties Kennedy esque stripe bathing suit, big

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Speaker 5: wide brim hat type of thing out of the like

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Speaker 5: country music, thick strap, tank top guitar vibes. So it's

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Speaker 5: like the most image friendly ideal for her, and a

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Speaker 5: latch onto where she doesn't lose her country fans but

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Speaker 5: is a lot American. She's staying American, just hopping over,

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Speaker 5: taking a couple steps towards the middle.

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Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 5: I always think about some old SNL sketch from like

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Speaker 5: a little later than this, where they're like Taylor Swift

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Speaker 5: who's always in a nineteen fifties bathing suit, and I

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Speaker 5: feel like that's when like this part of Taylor comes

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Speaker 5: to fruition.

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Speaker 3: It's like Tumblr Taylor, Yeah it is. It's try. It's

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Speaker 3: try sugar Cookie era Taylor.

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Speaker 5: We're like, yeah, there was a world in which you

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Speaker 5: could respond to Taylor Swift on Tumblr and she might

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Speaker 5: then respond to you back, which now basically doesn't happen

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Speaker 5: unless tree Pain says it's okay for her to like

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Speaker 5: comment on a TikTok.

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Speaker 4: See, I didn't even know. My Swifty knowledge is very

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Speaker 4: era specific. It's like I'm into reputation era. I will

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Speaker 4: occasionally check in and see what she's up to. But

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Speaker 4: I didn't even know she was on Tumblr. Sorry to

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Speaker 4: any swifties. That was like a whole era, and she

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Speaker 4: was like active on it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and she was posting recipes, she was responding to comments,

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Speaker 5: she was like sharing memes. It was when I really

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Speaker 5: started to like her because I was on tumble her

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Speaker 5: and I was like, maybe she's kind of like me,

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Speaker 5: And now I understand her to be nothing like me,

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Speaker 5: though I still think we could really vibe.

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Speaker 4: I definitely think you could. I guess I had never

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Speaker 4: made that connection. But to sort of fetishize the Kennedy's

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Speaker 4: is a very Tumblr instinct because there's such a big

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Speaker 4: part of American mythology and there are so many iconic

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Speaker 4: images associated with the Kennedy's, and of course Tumblr is

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Speaker 4: an image based platform, like I could see someone being

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Speaker 4: super into Kennedy's fashion or different Kennedy's moments. So Taylor,

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Speaker 4: the way that she gets in contact with the Kennedy's

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Speaker 4: is that Rory Kennedy, who is one of Bobby's daughters,

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Speaker 4: one of RFK and Ethel Kennedy's daughters, and meaning she's

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Speaker 4: also RFK Junior's sister reaches out because she apparently reads

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Speaker 4: the New Yorker profile and asks Taylor for concert tickets

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Speaker 4: for her daughters, and then that sort of develops the

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Speaker 4: Kennedy connection. Then she's invited to hannah Sport. That's where

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Speaker 4: she meets Connor Kennedy, who is famously seventeen at the time,

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Speaker 4: but then turns eighteen three weeks after they meet. Even

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Speaker 4: though to this day, I guess many more dramatic members

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Speaker 4: of this fifty community say that she dated.

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Speaker 5: A minor of course, Well, with that back to back

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Speaker 5: with Harry Styles, they were very upset with her.

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Speaker 4: At that time, and she's twenty two, we should say

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Speaker 4: at the time. I think, yeah, So basically she starts

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Speaker 4: developing some sort of friendship relationship with Connor in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 4: How is that received in the fandom?

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Speaker 5: Well, I think what's interesting, first of all, is in

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Speaker 5: that like three week period in her sort of initial

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Speaker 5: trying to like break into the Kennedy's world, there's also

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Speaker 5: a brief period where it looks like maybe she has

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Speaker 5: a thing going with Patrick Schwarzenegger, right, who is also

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Speaker 5: Kennedy in his own way, but that kind of different flavor,

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Speaker 5: shall we say of Kennedy because of the Arnold Schwarzenegger

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Speaker 5: of it.

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Speaker 3: All, but that winds up not happening.

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Speaker 5: I believe this is before he dates Miley then, but

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Speaker 5: it's interesting to think of the paths diverging.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and he's eighteen at the time, I believe, And

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Speaker 4: for anyone who doesn't know, his parents are Maria Schreiver

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Speaker 4: and Arnold Schwarzenegger. And at the time, he was very

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Speaker 4: much like an aspiring hot actor slash model. There was

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Speaker 4: no pristige, you know, model slash actor model slash Okay,

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Speaker 4: so there were rumors about Patrick.

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Speaker 3: Rumors about Patrick. I think he's a better actor than model.

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Speaker 4: Well now and now we all of course do because

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Speaker 4: of the white lotus.

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Speaker 5: Now, yeah, we never could have known. How did the

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Speaker 5: swifty community react to this? I can really only talk

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Speaker 5: about my localized Swifty community, which to us, this was hilarious,

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Speaker 5: This was funny, And this is almost like before her

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Speaker 5: relationships become like a total punchline. But I think it

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Speaker 5: actually kind of kicks off that whole part of her

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Speaker 5: star persona because of.

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Speaker 3: How all in she goes on the Kennedys.

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Speaker 5: Such that it really seems like dating Connor is a

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Speaker 5: means to an end for her to become part of

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Speaker 5: this family versus an actual romantic interest. It never seems

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Speaker 5: like something built out of genuine love so much as

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Speaker 5: it does a brand pivot, a sincere brand pivot, but

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Speaker 5: nonetheless well in.

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Speaker 1: Trying to give it the kindest eyes at the age difference,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like a senior in college dating a

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Speaker 1: freshman in college, but the first month of college, and

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Speaker 1: it's like, when I had friends that did things like that,

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Speaker 1: it was weird.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we all had friends, I think who had like

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Speaker 5: a slightly older partner where it's like your partner's sort

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Speaker 5: of generous for that age time where we were like,

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Speaker 5: it's not bad, but it's not great either. But I

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Speaker 5: also think she at that point has a kind of

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Speaker 5: arrested development that she reckons with for the next several

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Speaker 5: years where she's like, am I young or am I old?

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Speaker 4: Totally?

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Speaker 5: And you see that in the wildly oscillating between Connor

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Speaker 5: Kennedy and Harry styles versus like John Mayer and Jake Jillenhall.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that you could so easily argue

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Speaker 4: that the narrative around the Connor Kennedy relationship which is like,

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Speaker 4: she's desperate to be a Kennedy and she just wanted

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Speaker 4: to date any Kennedy and this was the one that

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Speaker 4: was right in front of her. You could argue that

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Speaker 4: that is, you know, a little unfair to her, but unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: she's not doing herself any favors by first expressing her

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Speaker 4: obsession with the Kennedy family in multiple platforms and then

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Speaker 4: within months announcing that she is dating someone.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the other thing about this a little bit of

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Speaker 1: exposition before Taylor shows up.

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Speaker 3: She meets them all on July fourth, right.

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Speaker 1: July fourth, at the Kennedy Compound. Okay, two months before this,

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Speaker 1: Connor's mom has committed suicide, and I feel like that

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Speaker 1: takes away maybe my ability to give her the benefit

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Speaker 1: of the doubt, just in terms of this is a

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Speaker 1: young person who's just lost their mother in a really

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Speaker 1: traumatic way, and it seems like not a great idea

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Speaker 1: for an older person to be approaching them for romantic relationship.

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Speaker 4: But the family is, you know, to play devil's advocate.

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Speaker 4: The family is embracing Taylor. She was invited by the

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Speaker 4: family to the compound as she didn't show up crazed

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Speaker 4: and ready to be a predator totally.

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Speaker 5: I get the sense that her initial presence is welcome

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Speaker 5: and a nice distraction, perhaps from all that they have

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Speaker 5: been dealing with.

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Speaker 4: And again they read I mean Ry reached out to

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Speaker 4: her because her daughters were fans and they were so

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Speaker 4: sort of like starstruck by her. It really was a

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Speaker 4: kind of mutual attraction. And I think for Taylor it

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Speaker 4: was so impressive to be around the Kennedys, And then

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Speaker 4: for the Kennedys, they were like, this is the biggest

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Speaker 4: up and coming pop star, and it's so fun that

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Speaker 4: she wants to spend time with us and the Kennedy's,

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Speaker 4: you know, as we as we know, have a long

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Speaker 4: history of involving the celebs of their time in their

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Speaker 4: public and private lives. My favorite story about Taylor at

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Speaker 4: the Kennedy compound is that she decided to play her

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Speaker 4: song Starlight for Ethyl and the whole family, and Frank,

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Speaker 4: can you tell us what Starlight is about?

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Speaker 3: Starlight is about Ethyl, of course, and it is.

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Speaker 4: A fictionalized account of her love story with Bobby.

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Speaker 3: I think loosely fictionalized.

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Speaker 5: I think she's pulling from the nine hundred page book

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Speaker 5: that for the record, I believe she read all of correct. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: because she's always kind of doing shit like this. But yeah,

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Speaker 5: she writes the song Starlight from the point of view

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Speaker 5: of Ethyl and sings it to Ethyl and family, and

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Speaker 5: the response I believe is not like check out this freak.

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Speaker 5: It's sort of like that's nice, like good for them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and somehow it's funny. I was expect cause I

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Speaker 4: think people I don't know, I'm tabloids that wrote about

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Speaker 4: it of course made her out to be like a psycho.

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Speaker 4: But then it appears that months later, after the Connor relationship,

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Speaker 4: she in fact received some sort of award at the

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Speaker 4: RFK Ripple of Hope gala in New York City and

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Speaker 4: performed Starlight live in front of the Kennedys. So they

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Speaker 4: must have liked it to some extent.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that song's fine. I've no bone to

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Speaker 5: pick with that song. But I also think at that

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Speaker 5: point in time, the marvel of her as a singer

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Speaker 5: songwriter has yet to wear off, where it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 5: she writes all her own stuff, and that's really impressive,

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Speaker 5: and that she would deign to write about even just

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Speaker 5: a really famous entity feels really novel and really like

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Speaker 5: oh like special.

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Speaker 1: Even so, then it seems like there's a bit of

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Speaker 1: a turn with her relationship with the family. And when

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Speaker 1: she and Connor show up to a wedding that they're

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Speaker 1: not supposed to do, could you tell us that story.

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Speaker 3: They crash they well, they may or may not have

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Speaker 3: crashed a wedding. I need to pull up who got married.

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Speaker 4: It was Liam Kerr and Kyle Kennedy, right, Okay, And

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Speaker 4: Kyle is Connor's cousin. She's the daughter of Michael Kennedy,

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Speaker 4: a brother of RFK Junior, who died in a skiing

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Speaker 4: accident in nineteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 5: Right, So they crash this wedding. Connor, I believe I'm

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Speaker 5: putting this on Connor. No offense to Connor. Connor I

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Speaker 5: believe is not invited, or at least Taylor is not invited.

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Speaker 5: But he tells Taylor it's fine, we can go, which

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Speaker 5: I don't think is a crazy thing for an eighteen

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Speaker 5: year old to think about a wedding in his family.

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Speaker 5: But they show up together and it is seen as

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Speaker 5: a kind of upstaging of the wedding itself, and Vicki,

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Speaker 5: who is the mother of the bride, gets pretty pissed

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Speaker 5: off about this, and and Gab's hard about the crashing

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Speaker 5: of the wedding and makes it look as though Taylor

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Speaker 5: is kind of sucking the life force out of the

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Speaker 5: Kennedys for a kind of attention.

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Speaker 4: And then Taylor, from what I understand, maintains that she

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Speaker 4: was invited.

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Speaker 3: She more maintains that she never would have crashed.

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Speaker 4: Away that she was told she could go.

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Speaker 5: She's like, I would not have just like done this,

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Speaker 5: which also feels correct.

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Speaker 3: I think she's not lying yeah about.

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Speaker 5: This, and they were probably truly under the impression that

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Speaker 5: it was no big deal, which also feels like an

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Speaker 5: early reckoning with how famous she is, where she also

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Speaker 5: may not have processed that her presence at an event

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Speaker 5: like this with a family that is so famous in

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Speaker 5: her mind could be upstaged by her, because I think

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Speaker 5: she really does feel like she's taking a back seat

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Speaker 5: to all of their dramas and romances and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: We do have another person weighing in on the context

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Speaker 1: later on, which is Kathy Lee Giffert.

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Speaker 4: What did Kathy Lee Gifford say?

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Speaker 3: She said that they crashed.

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Speaker 4: She was like, it was a crash, and she said

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Speaker 4: that like to the press or on TV. Okay, I

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Speaker 4: think she said it on TV, and then was that

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Speaker 4: what sort of got the story going and got everyone

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Speaker 4: talking about it.

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Speaker 5: I believe that is how it okay sort of then

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Speaker 5: really catches fire.

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Speaker 4: And I do want to say, you mentioned that the

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Speaker 4: mother of the bride like really was yapping all about town,

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Speaker 4: and it really was, like she said to the Boston

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Speaker 4: Harold she said, I responded with a very clear please

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Speaker 4: do not come. They came anyway. I personally went up

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Speaker 4: to Miss Swift, whose entrance distracted the entire event, politely

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Speaker 4: introduced myself to her and asked her as nicely as

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Speaker 4: I could to leave. It was like talking to a ghost.

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Speaker 4: She seemed to look right past me, which is so

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Speaker 4: crazy because the Kennedys are not I mean, of course

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Speaker 4: they have a complicated relationship with the press, but they

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Speaker 4: generally are not giving, like, you know, controversial quotes like

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Speaker 4: that about celebrities. It really feels very out of character.

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Speaker 5: Yes, and it feels out of character as a description

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Speaker 5: of Taylor, which is not to say that it's not true.

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Speaker 5: I don't know that I totally buy it, but her

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Speaker 5: image is really controlled even back then, and she rarely,

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Speaker 5: if ever, appears as someone disinterested or rude, like if

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Speaker 5: nothing else, like, she's always crazy, polite and that's.

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Speaker 3: All anyone ever has to say about her.

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Speaker 5: So this both like shatters and perpetuates an image that

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Speaker 5: she like constantly working and fighting against, both in just

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Speaker 5: like how she seems to be out and about in

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Speaker 5: the world, and in the sort of bigger brand of

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Speaker 5: her star.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is kind of the point, like you were

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Speaker 1: saying before, she needs the media more than the media

400
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Speaker 1: needs her. There's also this very same weekend of the wedding,

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Speaker 1: she and Connor go to visit his mother's grave site

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Speaker 1: as she is committed suicide just two months earlier.

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Speaker 5: This is the actual egregious thing I think in this

404
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 5: relationship is the paparazzi visit to Connor's mother's grave just

405
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,680
Speaker 5: because I am a paparazzi skeptic, where I never believe

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Speaker 5: the paparazzi just happened to be anywhere, let alone say

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Speaker 5: a cemetery, such that I find this quite craven.

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Speaker 4: So the accusation, of course, is that Taylor called the

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Speaker 4: paparazzi to take photos of her and Connor visiting Connor's

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Speaker 4: mother's grave two months after she had passed.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and he's looking very sad.

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Speaker 4: And she helped clear some overgrown brush from around the gravestone.

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Speaker 4: It's like she's really participating in the performance.

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Speaker 5: She's in like a little sun dress, her lipstick. She's

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Speaker 5: in like Taylor Swift costume basically.

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Speaker 3: And this isn'ting.

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Speaker 1: We'll definitely talk about when we get to RFK Junior.

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Speaker 1: But a little bit of context too on this grave

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Speaker 1: site is that after her funeral and initial burial at

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Speaker 1: the Kennedy Graveyard, he in the middle of the night

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Speaker 1: has her coffin dug up and moved with no headstone

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Speaker 1: facing the highway eighty yards away or something. And so

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Speaker 1: that's why there's overgrown like he put her in an

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Speaker 1: unmarked grave.

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Speaker 4: Why did he do that.

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Speaker 1: Well, because he tortured her for many years, and he

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Speaker 1: said after the burial, he said that he didn't realize

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Speaker 1: how crowded the Kennedy Graveyard was, so he had to

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Speaker 1: make more room. So he just got her up in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the night and pushed her out. It's

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Speaker 1: very strange and all this going on, and their eighteen

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Speaker 1: year old son is dating a twenty two year old

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Speaker 1: pop star and they're taking paparazzi photos at this grave

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Speaker 1: site that's barely a grave site right now. It's a

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Speaker 1: pretty wild situation when you think about the full Kennedy context.

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00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 4: So to me, the sort of trifecta of controversies with

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Speaker 4: the Connor Kennedy era are crashing the wedding paparazzi at

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Speaker 4: the gravestone, and then the third one, to me, which

439
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 4: is kind of my favorite, is her buying a house

440
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 4: across from the Kennedy compound. So, Fran, what is the

441
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 4: deal with that?

442
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 5: There's a sort of cul de sac in Massachusetts where

443
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 5: several of the houses in this cul de sac belonged

444
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,639
Speaker 5: to the Kennedys, and one of the houses that just

445
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 5: so happens to be available gets snatched up by Taylor Swift.

446
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 5: And in the way that kind of like all the

447
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 5: Kardashians live down the block from each other, so they

448
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 5: can just drift in and out of each other's sparse mansions.

449
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 3: She moves in like no joke across the.

450
00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 5: Street from the Kennedy compound could wave from a window,

451
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,160
Speaker 5: not a metaphorical across the street or five minute walk away,

452
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 5: like truly across the way as if to basically be like, yeah,

453
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 5: I'm thinking I'm staying here for a little while, and

454
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 5: also seems to be like a pretty early flex of

455
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 5: wealth on her behalf that she's, you know, twenty two

456
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 5: at this point and can afford this giant house in

457
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 5: a state that she is not sort of using as

458
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 5: like a vehicle for fame. It's not Nashville, it's not

459
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 5: la it's not New York. It's a place she really

460
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 5: does not have to be except for her Kennedy thing,

461
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 5: and she plants herself there and she's I mean, the

462
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 5: other thing.

463
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 1: About Taylor Swift today is like her real estate portfolio

464
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 1: on its own is like rivals.

465
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 3: People's entire lives are devoted to.

466
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's a regular Ellen DeGeneres.

467
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is like purchased through a shell company.

468
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: And her argument, or the argument of maybe, like the

469
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 1: people around her at the time, was like she was

470
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: looking at lots of investment properties and she had been

471
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: looking at this one for a while. But it is

472
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,959
Speaker 1: very odd timing she buys it while they're dating, Like

473
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: the short, short, short period of time that they're dating

474
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: is when she closes on the house and it's a

475
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: four and a half million dollar house.

476
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 5: It's not a quick process necessarily to buy a house either,

477
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 5: unless you pay cash, which I have to imagine she

478
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 5: did for this house.

479
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 4: And her side of the story, I guess, or her

480
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 4: team side of the story, as Lyra said, is that

481
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 4: she just wanted to buy an investment property, and in fact,

482
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 4: allegedly it was recommended to her by Rory Kennedy, which

483
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 4: makes it a little more believable. It's like Rory knew

484
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 4: that there were these properties available in that area because

485
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 4: she knows the area, and then Taylor went ahead and

486
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 4: bought it. I should also say, you know, the story

487
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 4: has a really happy ending because she actually sold the

488
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 4: house in March of twenty thirteen for five point six

489
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 4: million dollars and collected a nice check from flipping the property.

490
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 4: So all's while it ends, well.

491
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm so glad she winds up getting a big

492
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 5: house in Rhode Island. It is still very essential to

493
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 5: her persona and her personality and her sort of infamous

494
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 5: Fourth of July Rhode Island house party that I think

495
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 5: is born out of having attended the Kennedy one and

496
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 5: her being like, well, I'm gonna do my version of

497
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 5: that every year, but with Lively.

498
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: And Selena Gomez totally, Tom Hidleston and Tom Hddleston.

499
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 3: I love ts shirts heard. I remember these things.

500
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: I was not, you know, I was following the celebrity

501
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: gossip blogs.

502
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 3: At this time.

503
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: And I think that that is maybe my sole understanding

504
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 1: of Taylor Swift at this period of time for the

505
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: next like probably like five.

506
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 4: Yearsn't it's a nostalgic time because it was you know,

507
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 4: it was before she was too big to fail. You

508
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 4: really got the sense that she was still in progress,

509
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 4: like she hadn't decided where she was landing as a

510
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 4: public figure. I also feel like there's this thing that

511
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 4: Taylor does, and friend, I would love your take on this,

512
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 4: which is like intentionally fanning rumors about her love life

513
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 4: and then being defensive about the sort of offensive coverage

514
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 4: of it. So she's like totally writing songs about different

515
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 4: famous guys or like being seen with them clearly intentionally

516
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 4: in public. Then she'll see a story on US Weekly

517
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 4: that's like, wow, Taylor Swift has eated seven guys in

518
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 4: one year, and then she'll be like, here comes the

519
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 4: sexist media again, trying to make me out to be

520
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 4: this promiscuous like gall about town, like for example, with

521
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 4: this house thing. Apparently she told Vanity Fair people say

522
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 4: that about me that I apparently buy houses near every boy.

523
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 4: I like, that's the thing I apparently do. If I

524
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 4: like you, I will apparently buy up the real estate

525
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 4: market just to freak you out so you leave me,

526
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 4: Which is like attacking them for covering this. But in

527
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 4: fact she did do that.

528
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, completely, this is yes, she does this all

529
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 5: the time. I always think about when she got mad

530
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 5: at Ginny and Georgia, a Netflix show that no one

531
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 5: I know has ever watched but is seemingly extremely popular,

532
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 5: where I think they made a joke of like more

533
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 5: this than Boyfriends of Taylor Swift, and she did one

534
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 5: of her rare tweets where she dug in not necessarily

535
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 5: to Giny and Georgia, but to Netflix the company, as

536
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 5: though Netflix the company. This was like a statement from

537
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 5: Netflix the company because her documentary Miss Americana was also

538
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 5: a Netflix release, and I think she positioned it more

539
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 5: like as like a personal betrayal from one corporation to another.

540
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 5: All considered, but the Ginny and Georgia joke is both

541
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 5: like observed and completely toothless, but she will take any

542
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 5: opportunity to garner a kind of sympathy.

543
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say the Tina Fey

544
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: Amy Poehler joke where she said there's a special place

545
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: in hell for women to make fun of other women.

546
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: It's like they're hosting an award show. They're making fun

547
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: of everybody. It was not a shocking thing, right In

548
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: sort of her relationship to the media, she proves kind.

549
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 5: Of over and over again a lack of a sense

550
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 5: of humor. But then when her friends get interviewed, the

551
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 5: Hymes and Lord and Selena Gomezler whoever, they're always like

552
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 5: and Taylor is the funniest person of all time, and

553
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 5: it's like, well, that.

554
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 3: Can't be true.

555
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 5: I'm willing to believe that she's fun to hang out with,

556
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 5: but I will not believe that this is one of

557
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 5: the funniest people, because you really cannot take a joke

558
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 5: about this aspect of her life. But I also wonder

559
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 5: if that's changing for her post Poets Department, because that

560
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 5: was a sort of strangely self aware and self kind

561
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 5: of derisive album about her many manias, where she seemed

562
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,719
Speaker 5: to be actually like reckoning with the parts of herself

563
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 5: that she doesn't like more than blaming other people.

564
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 3: I mean to be fair.

565
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: To be a fourteen year old girl when you get

566
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: started and be under the microscope like that for a

567
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,959
Speaker 1: decade plus before you get to the point where you

568
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: can laugh about it. Yeah, I don't know, I've never

569
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: been there. Maybe it does take that long, but it

570
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: is shocking.

571
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 3: I don't know.

572
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: I just think I'm always surprised when a person who

573
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: is in attendance at an award show, a person who

574
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: is that privileged and accomplished and you know, fortunate, then

575
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: is offended that there was like a one liner thrown

576
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: in their direction.

577
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 3: Is just kind of shocking to me.

578
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 4: I know. But it led to the slap, so it's like,

579
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 4: all again, all's well, that ends well, Taylor Swift made

580
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 4: a profit from selling the house and we got the slap,

581
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 4: So what more? Does everyone want to close the loop

582
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 4: on Connor though, fran I want you to tell us

583
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 4: how long did this relationship last?

584
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 3: Two and a half months?

585
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 4: Correct? So all of this everything we're saying happened in

586
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 4: the span of two and a half months, including the

587
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 4: paparazzi photos, crashing the wedding, like her buying a house,

588
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 4: her giving multiple statements to Vanity Fair. All of this

589
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 4: was in the span of two and a half months,

590
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 4: and then I believe, you know, sort of going through

591
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 4: the timeline in my head in real time if they

592
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 4: met July fourth, it sort of lasted through like August,

593
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 4: maybe September, and then apparently she started dating Harry Styles

594
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 4: in December of twenty twelve of that year.

595
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, because they have the winter romance reflected upon

596
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 5: in nineteen eighty nine, so Rebel that's the cold Weather

597
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 5: album and then read as sort of a summer album.

598
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 4: Oh interesting.

599
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 5: This is also I guess like twenty twelve to twenty

600
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 5: sixteen is the last good era of Taylor Swift paparazzi photos,

601
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 5: because there's the gray paparazzi photos with Connor. There's like

602
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 5: when Harry Styles left her on a boat. Her sitting

603
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 5: on the.

604
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 3: Boat alone is a great photo.

605
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 5: And then it sort of culminates with like all the

606
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 5: Tom Hidleston stuff. Most notably to me, not the Fourth

607
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 5: of July party, but when they're on like a hike

608
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 5: on the rocks and she's dressed like a grandmother who

609
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 5: has to be like helped along, but now she'll just

610
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 5: go out to dinner for the rest of her life.

611
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 3: There's no funny paparazzi photos.

612
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, it's just via Corona every single night with

613
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 4: Blake Lively and we better be satisfied with what we're getting.

614
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

615
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: And I was standing behind her and Jake Jillenhall in

616
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: line getting coffee in Nashville, and I had no idea

617
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: the check that was standing right in front of me.

618
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: If I could have gotten a photo, it sold it

619
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: to the gossip blog.

620
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 3: Well was there vibe?

621
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 4: Oh?

622
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: First, I didn't recognize her at all. She just looked

623
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: like a regular college girl in Nashville. And this was

624
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: really our college coffee shop.

625
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 3: And I know it's Jake Jillenhall because he's Jake jillen Hall.

626
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: Also, I'm just realizing that my other celebrity sting at

627
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: that coffee shop was cursed and dunst.

628
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 3: Wow, now there's a Miss Americana.

629
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 4: I know. I got to visit that coffee shop. And

630
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 4: actually there's another person that dated Jake jill in Hall.

631
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I was saying, Like, it's like, well,

632
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: you know, they have a lot of things in common.

633
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 3: This is so besides the point.

634
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 5: But my friend Doo teaches high school, took his students

635
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 5: to see the Denzel Washington Jake jilln hall Othello, because

636
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 5: there were like the student tickets. And I was like,

637
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 5: do your high school students like know who Jake Jillen

638
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 5: Hall is? And he was like, no, they have no

639
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 5: idea who this is, Like he's not famous to them.

640
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 3: I was like, that's crazy.

641
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 4: This is why we have to do this podcast about

642
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 4: the Kennedys, because the only monoculture left is the Kennedys.

643
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 4: It is the only thing everyone at least can recognize

644
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 4: as a name. Absolutely, I do want to say, you know,

645
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 4: talking about all these people again. In twenty thirteen in

646
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 4: Vanity Fair, Taylor basically said I've dated exactly two people

647
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 4: since twenty ten, meaning Connor Kennedy and Harry Styles. So

648
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 4: basically she sort of is implying that, like all these

649
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 4: other ones are like people she had coffee with once

650
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 4: or like was seen with ones, and she thinks it's

651
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 4: offensive that there are these carousels with her with various

652
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 4: men because she only needed two people between twenty ten

653
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 4: and twenty thirteen.

654
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 5: I do think the culture was much meaner about her

655
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 5: having a multiple boyfriends. I think if she was a

656
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 5: sort of Sabrina carpenterish figure, people would care much less

657
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 5: or it would be like good for you, girly. But

658
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 5: it does become this sticking point that she doesn't drop

659
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 5: even when the culture changes, because it did happen to

660
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 5: her in that moment. But I also think like celebrities

661
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 5: get frozen in the time in which they become famous,

662
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 5: and which is why there is always perpetually kind of

663
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 5: cringe twenty tennis to her. That makes people a specific

664
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 5: kind of insane.

665
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 4: Well, and I also you were talking about her sense

666
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 4: of humor, and I think her sense of humor to

667
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 4: me comes out so well in you Know I'm the problem.

668
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 4: It's me in that song, which is called what Antihero?

669
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 4: Anti Hero? Yeah, and the humor which, by the way,

670
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 4: that song, I am only slightly ashamed to say, was

671
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 4: my number one most played song that year on Spotify,

672
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,719
Speaker 4: So I know the lyrics very well, but the humor

673
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 4: in that song is so twenty tens millennial Blurg you

674
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 4: know has rewatched you know, the Office in thirty rock.

675
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 4: And I'm in no way implying thirty rock as cringe.

676
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 4: It is literally my favorite comedy on television, but it

677
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 4: is you know, the references are sort of like twenty

678
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 4: tens references in this very kind of like funny way.

679
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 4: And I actually think even more than that, something that

680
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 4: is both frustrating and also charming about Taylor is that

681
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 4: sort of all her references are dated, even her album covers.

682
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 4: The aesthetics of them are always like one sort of

683
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 4: three year period too late, like that nineteen eighty nine

684
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 4: is this like polaroid photo that was already washed at

685
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 4: the time. That's like hipstomatic prints.

686
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 5: I know, I personally love it about her because it

687
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 5: sort of reflects I think she's sort of very open

688
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 5: about it and would not claim to be up on anything,

689
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 5: and sometimes she feigns this sort of like mind just

690
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 5: an old woman deep down, and.

691
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 3: That's where I'm like, yeah, you are exactly.

692
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 4: Even her thing about being a cat lady, like she's

693
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 4: that's another kind of like millennial tinged trope.

694
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like, there's a lot of pop stars and I

695
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 5: think celebrities who are just gonna be feeling like the

696
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 5: Long Tale of Bratt, where Bratt will have like kind

697
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,479
Speaker 5: of fucked up their next five years comparatively, we don't

698
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 5: have to worry about that with Taylor at all. Taylor's

699
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 5: identity is clear, It's been clear. It might be very mockable,

700
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 5: but it is consistent.

701
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 4: I do want to see. The closest she's gotten to

702
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 4: Brett is Reputation, which is my favorite era, and you know,

703
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 4: she's no Charlie xx, but some of those songs really

704
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 4: really still slap.

705
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 3: Yeah.

706
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 5: Well, I think her with the Taylor's versions being like

707
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 5: I actually don't want to touch Reputation was a fascinating

708
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 5: and I think ultimately correct play.

709
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 3: Yes. The one thing I wanted to add that we missed.

710
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: Ethel Kennedy is asked, do you think they're going to

711
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:49,720
Speaker 1: get married?

712
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 3: As we know in so many words?

713
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,919
Speaker 1: And Ethel Kennedy says, we would be so lucky, which

714
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 1: is a it's, you know, a very nice thing to say.

715
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 1: So we're talking about children here. Basically, it's very strange

716
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 1: that that would even be a question. They've been dating

717
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,240
Speaker 1: for like, let's say three weeks at that point, one month.

718
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 3: Maybe they're Catholics, like that's when they started thinking about that.

719
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, they're like the clack is ticking. No, And

720
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 4: I again, this is like a recurring thing. All the

721
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 4: Kennedys loved her, Like the only one that, of course

722
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 4: did not is the mother of the bride at the wedding.

723
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 4: Who is you know, going around town saying that Taylor

724
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 4: is dead behind the eyes and it's like talking to

725
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 4: a ghost. But all the other ones, I mean, you know, again,

726
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 4: she was invited to perform at that RFK Junior gala.

727
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 4: You know, this was before he went maga. One thing

728
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 4: I'm realizing only in having this conversation is what is

729
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 4: the deal with we're now skipping many years ahead the

730
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 4: last great American dynasty because that song is about the

731
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 4: Kennedy's right sort of.

732
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 5: Okay, is sort of is my understanding? I mean yes,

733
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 5: but I think about like her in there. She's sort

734
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 5: of taking the concept of like Kennedy iconography, but with

735
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 5: like a sort of like fictionalized version of herself. Like

736
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,439
Speaker 5: that album is more about like versions of Taylor more

737
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 5: so than she's like casting out or like reflecting on

738
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 5: like ethel or I don't know, JK.

739
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 3: Junior or anything like that.

740
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,720
Speaker 5: And it's you know, it's about a sort of preppy

741
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 5: Rhode Island woman who sort of got a whole thing

742
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 5: going on and being like air to a lot of money,

743
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 5: but the one to ones with Kennedy's like, don't really

744
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 5: got line up. I think she's just sort of conceptually

745
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 5: taking the idea of American dynasty, which she got from

746
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 5: the Kennedy's and reapplying it.

747
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 3: But so much of that album is a kind of

748
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 3: like auto fiction.

749
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 4: Project, because there's that line she had a marvelous time

750
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 4: ruining everything, and I it obviously without having done any

751
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 4: research about it. I thought, maybe that's referencing this trope

752
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 4: of Taylor going into Hyanna support and wreaking havoc or

753
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 4: even crashing the wedding or whatever.

754
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's sort of drawing from like all

755
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 5: this stuff that era to me always feels like because

756
00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 5: she's like deep in the Joe all In relationship. I

757
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 5: was like, and of course she's pulling from Joanna Hogg's

758
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 5: souvenir films by expounding auto fictionally about her life. But

759
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 5: it does feel like that and evermore are harder to

760
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 5: nail down to like one thing.

761
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 4: Before we end, I do want to say, friend, you

762
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 4: I think are the person that told me Connor Kennedy

763
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 4: went to fight in Ukraine.

764
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,280
Speaker 5: That's right, that's the last I heard about him, because

765
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 5: I had felt and this is like not so so recent.

766
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 5: I believe it was twenty twenty two, Yes, where I

767
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 5: feel like none of us had heard about him post

768
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 5: Taylor Swift breakup.

769
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 3: That's fine.

770
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,280
Speaker 5: Maybe he wants to be as much of a civilian

771
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 5: as a Kennedy can be a civilian. But he sort

772
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 5: of re emerges in fall of twenty twenty two to

773
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 5: just be like, by the way, I went to Ukraine

774
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 5: to like fight in Ukraine, and it's like, what you did?

775
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 5: And he has this like long Instagram post where he

776
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 5: basically says he went there like kind of anonymously, like

777
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 5: he didn't really tell a lot of family and friends.

778
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 5: He didn't tell people they are like who he was

779
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 5: related to, and how he felt like it was a

780
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:01,720
Speaker 5: cause he.

781
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,240
Speaker 3: Really had to get behind.

782
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 5: He says this war will shape the fate of democracy

783
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 5: in this century, and it's like, maybe, but I didn't

784
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 5: know that's something this guy cared about. Wow, And now

785
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 5: he's just like engaged and Backstateside.

786
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 3: Yeah to a singer songwriter.

787
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 4: Yes, a Brazilian singer songwriter, Julia b.

788
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 1: We might be seeing him on the ballot someday.

789
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, he is really the dark horse of the Kennedy's

790
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 4: because we just did a whole episode about Jack Schlossberg,

791
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 4: who I think is now carrying the mantle of the

792
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 4: quintessential millennial Kennedy. But you know, at any point, Connor

793
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 4: could enter the arena again, and in fact, you know,

794
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 4: use his experience in Ukraine as kind of something that

795
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 4: sets him apart.

796
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: I mean, that's quite a bit more experience in politics

797
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: than Vogue's political consultant for four weeks.

798
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly. All right, So well, I just want to

799
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 4: say we hear at United States of Kennedy will be

800
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 4: keeping an eye out for all these millennial Kennedys, and

801
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 4: we will be doing an official ranking at some point. Fran,

802
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 4: thank you so much for chatting with us about Taylor

803
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 4: Swift and Connor Kennedy. I'm honestly now really in the

804
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 4: mood to go and listen to Red to Taylor's version.

805
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 3: It's good, It's really good. It's the best Taylor's version.

806
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 3: I think.

807
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 4: There you have it. All right, thanks so much for

808
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 4: v Thank you.

809
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 3: That's it for this week's episode.

810
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 4: Coming up this season, we will be talking about Bobby

811
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 4: Kennedy taking on Jimmy Hoffa, the iconic documentary Gray Gardens,

812
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 4: the many faces of RFK Junior, and the heyday of

813
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 4: George Magazine.

814
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all

815
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: things Kennedy every week