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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.

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Speaker 2: Michael Lychins is the editor of the Catholic Exchange. He

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Speaker 2: holds an MA in Religion and Literature from the University

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Speaker 2: of Chicago, and when he isn't busy revising and editing,

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Speaker 2: he spends much of his time studying overlooks spiritual experiences.

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Speaker 2: He resides in Colorado, where you can often find him

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Speaker 2: discussing preachers, ghosts, and churches of the Old West. Here

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Speaker 2: he is Michael Lichins on Coast to Coast. Michael, have

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Speaker 2: you been I've.

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Speaker 3: Been very well, George, thank you so much for having

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Speaker 3: me again.

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Speaker 2: And how is the Sophia Institute doing? Pumping out great

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Speaker 2: works always?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we're very busy as always.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk tonight about the Pope's exorcist, Father

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Speaker 2: Gabriela Morth. I'm going to tell you an interesting story.

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Speaker 2: We know Russell Crowe, and I sent him a text

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Speaker 2: today at six o'clock Pacific time and said, Russell, I've

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Speaker 2: got a special guest on We're talking about Father Gabriel

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Speaker 2: Amors and you played that role in the movie The

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Speaker 2: Pope's Exorcist. Would you like to come on for a

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Speaker 2: few minutes, he said, George, it's one am. Now, this

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Speaker 2: is six pm Pacific time. He said, it's one am.

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Speaker 2: I'm in Budapest doing a film. I'm going to bed.

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Speaker 2: Have a great show. I love it. But tell me

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Speaker 2: about Gabriel. He did over sixty thousand exorcists something like that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, he performed tens of thousands of exorcisms. The number

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Speaker 3: went up well over seventy thousand towards the end of

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Speaker 3: his death. And that could be done on the same

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Speaker 3: person and over very different sessions. Sometimes that could be

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Speaker 3: just as little as five minutes with one person, So

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Speaker 3: it varied from Burston to person. But yeah, he saw

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Speaker 3: people every day. Even up until his death in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 3: he was still seeing people daily who might need spiritual

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Speaker 3: counseling or exorcism.

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Speaker 2: Catholic Church takes exorcisms very seriously, doesn't.

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Speaker 3: It it very much? Does it? Father Morth would say

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Speaker 3: that they weren't taking it seriously enough for a good

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Speaker 3: portion of his lifetime, but he helped to bring it

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Speaker 3: back and to put more emphasis on it.

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Speaker 2: Now there are some non Catholic exorcists as well. I

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Speaker 2: guess that's presentable, that's doable, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there are a lot of non Catholic exorcists. In

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Speaker 3: the Catholic Church, you have to be a priest to

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Speaker 3: be an exorcist, whereas in a lot of Protestant denominations

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Speaker 3: or non Christian groups you don't necessarily have to be.

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Speaker 3: But even Father Morre pointed out that even us lady

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Speaker 3: have the power to chase the devil away if need be.

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Speaker 2: And he was dark serious about what he did. He

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Speaker 2: and five other priests founded the International Association of Exorcists.

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Speaker 2: He got involved in this in a big way, didn't they.

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Speaker 3: He did During his own lifetime, he felt that the

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Speaker 3: vocation of exorcist wasn't being emphasized enough in the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 3: In fact, I think when he started working, he worked

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Speaker 3: with the priest Candido Amanti on a teenie pardon me,

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Speaker 3: who had been the sole exorcist in the whole Diocese

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Speaker 3: of Rome for thirty years. By the time Father morph

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Speaker 3: was done, there were over thirty exorcists in the diocese.

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Speaker 2: What made him one of the most famous.

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Speaker 3: It was his openness to the media. He had previously

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Speaker 3: worked in politics and media. Before becoming a priest, he

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Speaker 3: had worked with the Christian Democrat party in Italy. He

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Speaker 3: was very involved with it, with a future prime minister

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Speaker 3: even and so he was used to writing and speaking.

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Speaker 3: He had done courses in journalism, so when he became

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Speaker 3: an exorcist and saw how little emphasis there was, he

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Speaker 3: wanted to talk about it. And therefore the media was

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Speaker 3: very taken with him, and he gave numerous interviews as

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Speaker 3: well as reading, writing about a dozen books.

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Speaker 2: He was one of a kind. He had at one

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Speaker 2: point said that some of the cases he handled, he

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Speaker 2: was convinced that the individual might have been possessed by

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Speaker 2: a thousand demons, a thousand demons, one person.

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Speaker 3: One person and a thousand demons. And that's why it

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Speaker 3: would take sometimes when he would be seeing what he

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Speaker 3: called patients, they wouldn't be just one and done session.

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Speaker 3: He would have to see the person for sometimes years.

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Speaker 3: In one case, I know if he saw the person

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Speaker 3: for almost a decade.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he talked about repeat times. It's not just like

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Speaker 2: the movie. You don't pop in and pop out. Exactly

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Speaker 2: what causes demonic attacks?

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Speaker 3: Michael, there are Father Moore thought there were three major causes.

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Speaker 3: The most dramatic one, of course, is making a pact

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Speaker 3: with the devil. But the one he saw probably the

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Speaker 3: most often was that people would go and procure curses

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Speaker 3: or spell things like that. This was especially common in

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Speaker 3: Italy where people would see, you know, this isn't just

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Speaker 3: your tarot card reader or whatever. This would be an

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Speaker 3: actual working magician that would be trying to secure curses,

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Speaker 3: and that caused, in his experience, the majority of demonic attacks.

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Speaker 3: And then there are the demonic attacks that kind of

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Speaker 3: like the Book of Job, where God not prevents, he

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Speaker 3: permits the demonic attacks in order to help bring up

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Speaker 3: about holiness.

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Speaker 2: He was asked if the devil ever struck inside the Vatican,

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Speaker 2: and he said, yes, nineteen eighty one, the attack on

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Speaker 2: John Paul the second when he was almost assassinated, and

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Speaker 2: he believed that was the work of the devil.

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Speaker 3: He absolutely did. He also believed that the missing Vatican

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Speaker 3: girl I'm spacing on her name was also the work

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Speaker 3: of satanicult within the Vatican, and he said on numerous

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Speaker 3: occasions that he believed Satanism and Satan himself were operating

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Speaker 3: within the Vatican's political council.

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Speaker 2: Would you have liked to have met him.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I wish I had like our lifetimes overlap just

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Speaker 3: a little bit. But I really would have liked to

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Speaker 3: have met him, if nothing else, not only to ask

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Speaker 3: him more deeper questions about some of his theories, like

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Speaker 3: the devil being in the Vatican, but also he had

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Speaker 3: just a killer sense of humor. At times when he

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Speaker 3: would be doing exorcisms, if the devil started yelling or

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Speaker 3: interrupting him, you would say, shut up, you're not worth

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Speaker 3: a cigarette. But and that was a common phrase he

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Speaker 3: had for demons.

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Speaker 2: What got him involved in exorcisms.

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Speaker 3: Pure and simple. He was asked to do it by

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Speaker 3: the former exorcist of Rome, Candido Montini. Initially, when he

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Speaker 3: was asked, Father Morre was very reluctant. He kept saying, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm not an exorcist. I'm a jokester. I

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Speaker 3: play praying, so I'm not really someone who should be

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Speaker 3: involved in this. But he felt called to it, and

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Speaker 3: after Commentini kept insisting, no, we really need someone like

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Speaker 3: you to be an exorcist, he said, Okay, I'll do it.

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Speaker 3: He went through about six years of training to learn

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Speaker 3: how to be an exorcist, and then he finally got

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Speaker 3: his solo exorcism in the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 2: What possesses an individual? How do you diagnose that?

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Speaker 3: You have to diagnose it by figuring out if the

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Speaker 3: person is sick from anything else. So Father and Morth

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Speaker 3: would work with doctors, scientists, psychiatrists to see if there

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Speaker 3: was any natural explanation for what a person might be

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Speaker 3: going through. Other ways to diagnose it, of course, would

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Speaker 3: be exposing them to holy objects or holy water. How

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Speaker 3: thing Father of Morth would do is that he would

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Speaker 3: introduce the person to holy water, but not tell them

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Speaker 3: it was holy water, to see if they would have

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Speaker 3: a reaction. If they're especially disgusted by it or don't

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Speaker 3: want to go into a church, that was usually a sign.

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Speaker 2: I would guess that, Michael. Most doctors would diagnose someone

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Speaker 2: as being mentally ill or schizophrenic or something like that,

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Speaker 2: where a Father or Morth would say, this is a

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Speaker 2: demonic possession. We need to do some work. They would

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Speaker 2: be at wits end, wouldn't they.

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Speaker 3: You think so, But they often work together, and in fact,

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Speaker 3: most exorcists often have a doctor or two that they

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Speaker 3: work with, and the reason why is they want to

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Speaker 3: look for a natural explanation before they go to the supernatural.

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Speaker 3: And in a lot of cases, both in Father Morth's

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Speaker 3: experience but also with other exorcies, the doctors will absolutely

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Speaker 3: certify that they cannot find a natural explanation for the

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Speaker 3: weirdness that is going on in this person's life.

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Speaker 2: He would consult with scientists as well. What did he

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Speaker 2: try to get from them?

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Speaker 3: He wanted a scientists, He asked it, particularly a professional

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Speaker 3: group of psychiatrists within Italy, to see if they could

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Speaker 3: look more into demonic cases and cases of possession, particularly

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Speaker 3: what he found fascinating as while psychologists would tell him yes,

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Speaker 3: these things could be explained by psychology, it would usually

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Speaker 3: be a symptoms of multiple illnesses that could not be

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Speaker 3: explained all at once. And so that's what he wanted

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Speaker 3: them to do, is to study and find out if

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Speaker 3: there were any other causes.

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Speaker 2: What causes a possession? What does the demon want?

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Speaker 3: The demon ultimately a demon, whether it's doing the simple

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Speaker 3: temptations you know, the good angel, bad Angel on your

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Speaker 3: shoulder type of thing, or fall on possession or even

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Speaker 3: haunting your house, they want to encourage rebellion of all

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Speaker 3: of creation against its creator. So they want to sow chaos,

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Speaker 3: They want to sow fear, and they want to put

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Speaker 3: it into people doubts that there is any goodness, good God,

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Speaker 3: that is rule in the universe.

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Speaker 2: And what generally gets rid of them. Why does it

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Speaker 2: in some cases take so long.

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Speaker 3: A couple of reasons. One, the demons themselves may actually

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Speaker 3: try to hide from the exorcist. Father Morth had numerous

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Speaker 3: times when he would try to talk to the demon

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Speaker 3: or something like that, it would just freeze up and

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Speaker 3: refuse to talk to him, and he would have to

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Speaker 3: force it to talk.

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Speaker 2: Through the individual it possessed. Right, Yes, the.

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Speaker 3: Individual that possessed would have to would either clam up,

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Speaker 3: not even come into the church, or just freeze entirely.

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Speaker 3: So you would have to while performing an exorcism, basically

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Speaker 3: you command the demon to come and talk to him.

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Speaker 3: In a lot of cases, people are possessed are going

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Speaker 3: through a lot of personal struggles as well, so there

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Speaker 3: might be something they're holding on to in there fearing,

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Speaker 3: and it can be up to the individual patient to

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Speaker 3: really help get rid of the demon. So in some

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Speaker 3: cases he can take, like Father Moore said, multiple dozens

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Speaker 3: of cases. In particular his last case, it actually went

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Speaker 3: until his very death.

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Speaker 2: I had heard that the church had about one hundred

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Speaker 2: and twenty active exorcists at any given time. Is that

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Speaker 2: a pretty accurate number?

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Speaker 3: It is a pretty accurate number. There was a while

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Speaker 3: there when it was probably under thirty.

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Speaker 2: Wow, they believe.

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Speaker 3: For the work, it's really low. Through the work of

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Speaker 3: Father More, that's probably actually over two hundred now.

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Speaker 2: And how does he know somebody is possessed?

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Speaker 3: You know someone that is possessed through spiritual discernment. This

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Speaker 3: was something he himself claimed he didn't think he had

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Speaker 3: a lot of and he for his his instructor, Candido Amontini,

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Speaker 3: and said that he had better spiritual discernment. But we

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Speaker 3: know for all these writings, Father More clearly had discernment

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Speaker 3: of spirits. I was able to figure them out almost intuitively.

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Speaker 3: But there was also the signs like someone who was

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Speaker 3: afraid ofsess of sorry, not possessed, but of poly objects, water,

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Speaker 3: the cross, relics. And there's also the signs if anybody

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Speaker 3: is aggressive or just will not go into a holy

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Speaker 3: place such as a church or chapel.

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Speaker 2: He once said that of the thirty thousand exorcisms he

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Speaker 2: did during the particular period, that's still a lot. Only

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Speaker 2: ninety four of them were actual full blown possessions. That

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Speaker 2: seemed low.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of cases he saw. It was less

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Speaker 3: than one percent of all the people that he would

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Speaker 3: see in day in and day out that needed a

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Speaker 3: full major exorcism, So it was pretty low. A lot

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Speaker 3: of cases could be explained either they were medical issues

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Speaker 3: that were manifesting in a spiritual sign, or they weren't

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Speaker 3: a full on possession. They were what's called an infestation,

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Speaker 3: which is your classic haunted house. And he said he

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Speaker 3: got that call probably more than anything people reported hearing

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Speaker 3: strange phenomena or seeing strange phenomena in their home.

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Speaker 2: Well, he was based at the Vatican right.

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Speaker 3: He was based in the Vatican. He often worked at

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Speaker 3: the Chapel of the Holy Stairs, which is in Rome,

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Speaker 3: right next to Saint John Ladder and the chief Cathedral

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Speaker 3: in Rome.

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Speaker 2: Was he ever scared, He was not.

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Speaker 3: He claimed that he never felt fear in all of

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Speaker 3: these cases, even at the beginning when he was under

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Speaker 3: instruction from Amantini. He had full confidence in his guardian

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Speaker 3: angel in the sacraments. He also personally felt Padre Pio,

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Speaker 3: who was a spiritual director to him was often interfering

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Speaker 3: and helping these exorcisms.

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Speaker 2: Did he have any particular prayer to rid the demon?

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Speaker 3: He had a couple. He shared a couple in his books, oddly,

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Speaker 3: but he would pray in particular, and this is one

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Speaker 3: we all can pray. You don't have to be a priest,

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Speaker 3: but the litany of saints, that is, you call upon

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Speaker 3: each of these saints, including your guardian Angel and the

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Speaker 3: saint Michael, the Archangel, to protect you. And he also

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Speaker 3: turned to Mary, the Mother of God, which we Catholics love,

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Speaker 3: and he would turn to her very quickly. He had

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Speaker 3: a deep, profound love of Mary. In fact, was involved

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Speaker 3: with maryon devotion before he was involved in exorcism.

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Speaker 2: What do you think of these statues of the Blessed

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Speaker 2: Virgin that are going around the country where people will

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Speaker 2: go to parlors or homes for miracles expecting to see

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Speaker 2: the statue tear up.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting. I have not seen one to be statues

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Speaker 3: in person, yet it's something I My grandmother, on the

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Speaker 3: other hand, who I adored, she saw one to be

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Speaker 3: stat weeping statues and believed it was very miraculous.

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Speaker 2: I saw one as a kid, but never it never weeped,

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Speaker 2: but oh, interesting it was one of them they brought

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Speaker 2: to an event in my grandmother's house in Michigan. Wow.

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Speaker 2: They had a whole bunch of people in their praying

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Speaker 2: away and this statue was about two feet tall and

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Speaker 2: they had it up on a table with flowers around

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Speaker 2: it and candles and everything, and people were just praying,

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Speaker 2: hoping for it to start crying.

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Speaker 3: That is so interesting. It shows like even in our

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Speaker 3: technological age, we still look for the mysterious and the miraculous.

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Speaker 2: It was kind of spooky to a kid, by the way.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I can imagine that old spooky to a kid.

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Speaker 3: The invisible forces of the world.

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Speaker 2: We're here to watch a statue cry?

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Speaker 3: Why they're not meant to cry?

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Speaker 2: Now? Father or more died at ninety one years old

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Speaker 2: something like that. Yeah, in twenty sixteen, not that far away.

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Speaker 3: Mm hmm. And he loved letter very long and productive life,

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Speaker 3: like encouraging many of the exorcists who work now in

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Speaker 3: the Catholic Church of oh their vocation to Father more

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Speaker 3: than his work.

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Speaker 2: Do you think he's in heaven hour did the demons

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Speaker 2: try to get him before he got away?

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Speaker 3: I'm sure that he is in heaven, and that the

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Speaker 3: demons let out a cry of annoyance that he got

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Speaker 3: into heaven. I personally believe he prays for all of

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Speaker 3: us who work in trying to preserve his memory and

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Speaker 3: his mission. That he's I sometimes feel him myself, and

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Speaker 3: I'm thankful for him.

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Speaker 2: How many supernatural disturbances did he encountered, Michael.

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Speaker 3: He encountered quite a few, he had mentioned. Oddly enough,

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Speaker 3: levitation was an occurrence he only experienced twice as an exorcist,

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Speaker 3: but that one was his very first exorcism, where he encountered.

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Speaker 2: Once is too much.

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Speaker 3: I mean once is too much. I agree, and this

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Speaker 3: is being also encountered itself as Lucifer, and he experienced

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Speaker 3: in that exorcism the cold room there was ice forming

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Speaker 3: on the windows. He frequently had people who would spit

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Speaker 3: at him, but the spit would turn to nails, so

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Speaker 3: they were effectively spitting straight nails at his face. Wow.

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Speaker 3: He kept several of those nails actually in his office.

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Speaker 2: Did he ever get hurt?

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Speaker 3: He would get minor injuries, such as being punched or

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Speaker 3: one of those nails would make contact. He usually had

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Speaker 3: a couple of assistants helping him out In the exorcism,

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Speaker 3: so he was generally safe, but there was definitely some

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Speaker 3: concern that for physical safety.

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