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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my

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Speaker 2: name is Nolan.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with

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Speaker 3: our super producer Andrew Treforce Howard. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 3: want you to know. In tonight's episode, we are exploring

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Speaker 3: a story of crime, politics, and possibly conspiracy. Building off

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Speaker 3: our earlier exploration into the American Indian Movement, we are

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Speaker 3: focusing on a single individual, a man who, as we record,

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Speaker 3: has been nearly half a century eight years imprisoned for

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Speaker 3: crimes that he maintains he did not commit. Now, before

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Speaker 3: we roll through this, guys, what's the most important thing

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Speaker 3: people need to remember about our US versus the American

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Speaker 3: Indian Movement episode?

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Speaker 4: Oh jeez, how do you boil that down? I don't know.

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Speaker 5: As far as I'm concerned, that reparations are due ward

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Speaker 5: two and they still haven't been paid in many cases.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe just the formation of this country is the

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Speaker 2: direct result of taking land from peoples that lived here

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Speaker 2: before America was ever a thing, and it continues the country,

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Speaker 2: the company America continues to I would say, disenfranchise and

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Speaker 2: wrong peoples that they stole the land from initially agreed.

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Speaker 3: The United States has always been an experiment and it

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Speaker 3: is the result of a conspiracy. There is nothing inaccurate

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Speaker 3: about that statement. This is the story of Leonard pell Tier.

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Speaker 3: Here are the facts. We mentioned this in our previous episode,

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Speaker 3: our exploration of the American Indian Movement. Leonard Helltier. You

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Speaker 3: can hear it called that on sixty minutes. You can

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Speaker 3: hear alternative pronunciations. Last name P. E. L t I

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Speaker 3: E R. Born on September twelfth, nineteen forty four, in

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Speaker 3: Grand Forks, North Dakota, and who he was part of

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Speaker 3: a really big family.

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Speaker 4: Unbelievably big.

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Speaker 5: Indeed, he was the eleventh of thirteen children.

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Speaker 4: At least it wasn't the middle child. That would have

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Speaker 4: been rough with that many similss.

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Speaker 3: Kind of he's like the end of the middle children,

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Speaker 3: but he's not the last, and he's not the eldest.

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Speaker 5: One could argue maybe not the worst position, because if

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Speaker 5: you're eleventh or thirteenth, you haven't been totally forgotten by

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Speaker 5: mom and dad yet.

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Speaker 4: But you're also like kind of old news. So it's

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Speaker 4: sort of a kind of the sweet spot maybe.

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Speaker 3: But I don't know my ancestors who at some point

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Speaker 3: started just naming the kids based on their birth order.

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Speaker 3: I have for many years a great aunt nine.

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Speaker 4: Nice.

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Speaker 5: Wow, you know what, I think we should normalize naming

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Speaker 5: children after prime numbers. I think that's a good idea.

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Speaker 5: I like the way numbers sound.

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Speaker 4: Six.

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Speaker 5: There's a character named six, I believe, what was it,

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Speaker 5: ozark AnyWho.

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Speaker 4: I think there's a nice ring to it.

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Speaker 5: But his parents divorced when he was four years old,

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Speaker 5: and after this, he and another sibling sister unclear as

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Speaker 5: to which number of sibling she was, were sent to

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Speaker 5: the Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation of the Turtle Mountain Chippewa

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Speaker 5: tribe near Belcourt, North Dakota, in order to live with

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Speaker 5: their paternal grandparents.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and his father would later move back to his

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Speaker 3: own parents area. The letter is the opposite of a

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Speaker 3: quote unquote silverspoon kid. You know, like far too many

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Speaker 3: children in the native community. He grew up amid rank

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Speaker 3: poverty and active discrimination. And we mentioned this in our

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Speaker 3: previous exploration, but we didn't get into the specifics. At

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Speaker 3: the age of nine, he was sent to a boarding

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Speaker 3: school that function to assimilate Native children, the Wapaton School

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Speaker 3: in North Dakota, and he was, like so many innocent

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Speaker 3: children there and in Canada and in Australia, if we're

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Speaker 3: being honest, he was subjected to various forms of emotional

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Speaker 3: and physical abuse. I would also say he was subjected

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Speaker 3: to cultural abuse because he was being forced to erase

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Speaker 3: his own and sel estual culture. And there's not really

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Speaker 3: in English a word for that kind of brutality visited

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Speaker 3: on people, So I would go with cultural abuse or

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Speaker 3: cultural erasure.

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Speaker 5: I rasure, Yeah, No, I mean it reminds me of like,

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Speaker 5: you know, the Germans are so good with having words

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Speaker 5: describe like kind of complex emotions or scenarios, like the

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Speaker 5: word for Holocaust guilt, which I think I've talked about before.

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Speaker 5: But no, but I think this concept deserves a word.

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Speaker 5: But I think he did the next best thing, Ben,

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Speaker 5: You're absolutely right, cultural erasure or abuse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, as a little little child he went through

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Speaker 2: that whole scenario. Then he was sent to another one

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Speaker 2: of these schools, right, this time in South Dakota the

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Speaker 2: Flandreaux or f L A N d r. Eau Indian School,

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Speaker 2: and then he ended up dropping out around the ninth

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Speaker 2: grade and headed back to where his dad was in

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Speaker 2: Turtle Mountain.

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Speaker 3: And while he is at Turtle Mountain, he witnesses first

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Speaker 3: hand the policy we're talking about earlier, the policy of termination.

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Speaker 3: Termination at this point was not necessarily the media genocide

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Speaker 3: practiced by the Nazi Party, but it did include siege mentality,

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Speaker 3: withdrawing federal assistance, including food assistance, from Native Americans living

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Speaker 3: on these reservations. It was at the very best, a

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Speaker 3: ham fisted attempt to make people, you know, eat the

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Speaker 3: apple pie right, drink the George Washington mead, assimilate and

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Speaker 3: stop speaking their own languages.

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Speaker 2: And this is in the late nineteen fifties, I believe,

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Speaker 2: around the time when this is occurring.

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Speaker 3: And history is far closer than it looks in the

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Speaker 3: rear view mirror. It was at worst, very much like

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Speaker 3: putting a community under siege, like the old medieval warfare

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Speaker 3: style thing. You surround a castle and you try to

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Speaker 3: starve it, and that's what they were doing. And for

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Speaker 3: anyone who would ignore the various broken covenants of the

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Speaker 3: US government and agree to assimilate. They were given promises

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Speaker 3: of jobs and guaranteed housing in urban areas.

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Speaker 4: Spoiler.

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Speaker 5: I mean, you know, it seems like almost one of

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Speaker 5: the cruelest cuts of the whole relationship between the United

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Speaker 5: States government and Indigenous people is the continual stringing along,

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Speaker 5: you know, the continual promises and the continual kind of

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Speaker 5: moving of goalposts. It's just, I don't know, it's just

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Speaker 5: a very difficult way to live without any kind of

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Speaker 5: assurance that you are going to be made a whole

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Speaker 5: or that you want to be taken care of.

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Speaker 2: And just so I get those dates right really quick, guys,

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Speaker 2: it is in the late nineteen fifties when this is

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Speaker 2: when Leonard is experiencing this. But that was a policy

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Speaker 2: either went from nineteen fifty three all I think to

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight.

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Speaker 3: Yes, officially, I would argue. I would argue the BIA

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Speaker 3: has continued very similar things. Well, as we'll discuss with cointelpro.

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Speaker 2: That's the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

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Speaker 4: That's the Eurea of Indian Affairs, right.

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Speaker 5: So, with those promises of jobs and housing from the

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Speaker 5: US government, folks arrived in many of these cities, and

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Speaker 5: like we mentioned, were kind of left holding the bag.

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Speaker 4: You know, we're not.

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Speaker 5: Given the opportunities and assistance that they were promised. This

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Speaker 5: is going to become an ongoing theme. So as a

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Speaker 5: result of said broken promises, many of them became unhoused

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Speaker 5: in the parts of the country where they had no

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Speaker 5: support systems.

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Speaker 3: Right, yes, and we're further victimized by again I use

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Speaker 3: the word rank not loosely. It is unclean discrimination. You know,

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Speaker 3: they were calling people engine I n jun and things

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Speaker 3: like that. It was very bad and it was not

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Speaker 3: what Uncle Sam promised them. And so in nineteen sixty five,

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Speaker 3: Leonard relocates to Seattle, and you know, he got there

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Speaker 3: way before Microsoft did, and he went because this is

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Speaker 3: the historic homeland of the Nez Pierce. And while there,

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Speaker 3: Leonard does several amazing things. He takes some odd jobs

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Speaker 3: in construction, He works as a welder. He eventually becomes

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Speaker 3: the part owner of an autobody shop. And here I

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Speaker 3: would argue, no matter whatever, nine to five kind of

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Speaker 3: job the guy has, he finds his true vocation, which

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Speaker 3: is activism, which is supporting the community, and so he

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Speaker 3: becomes evolved in different aspects of the Native American rights movement,

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Speaker 3: and he he has this greater goal in mind. Right,

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Speaker 3: organizations can be ephemeral, they can have ven diagrams, you know,

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Speaker 3: not everybody affiliated with something like the United Indians of

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Speaker 3: All Tribes, not everyone there as a member of the

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Speaker 3: American Indian movement, but they are gathered toward common cause.

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Speaker 3: And so here Leonard does really awesome stuff. He finds

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Speaker 3: people who have been you know, promised jobs by the

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Speaker 3: termination policy and then been robbed of those jobs. Or

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Speaker 3: he finds people who have been caught up in the

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Speaker 3: incarceration system and then let out just sort of counting

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Speaker 3: the days before they get arrested again. And he helps them,

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Speaker 3: and he says, come get a job with me, come

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Speaker 3: live here at the autobody shop. We can help you out.

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Speaker 3: And if someone has a car in need of repair

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Speaker 3: and they can't afford it, he helps them out there too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a really important thing here. Just when

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about it, I'm imagining all the people who

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Speaker 2: read about or see, you know, on the news or

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Speaker 2: something some kind of movement that's occurring, like this Native

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Speaker 2: American rights movement. Right there are people who see it

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Speaker 2: and then want to get involved. But then there are

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Speaker 2: also people like Leonard, like his family, like all of

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Speaker 2: the people that were living in these various reservations that

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Speaker 2: in that land that was just taken again by the

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Speaker 2: United States. To actually experience that, to go through that,

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Speaker 2: to watch yourself, your family, your friends, not have any

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Speaker 2: of the things like to be lied to, let's say,

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Speaker 2: to your face, and then to go through all the

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Speaker 2: hardships that that entails. Somebody who has been through that

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Speaker 2: experience is ready to fully fight back against whatever system

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Speaker 2: wronged them, whatever individuals, whatever group, whatever that thing is

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Speaker 2: that both took from them and then wrong them. I

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Speaker 2: just think that's a really important thing, Like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that mean fire that would be in your mind. I

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Speaker 2: don't think would get crushed out by anything.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And not to be like mega mega like America

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Speaker 5: sucks or whatever, but it does feel like this is

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Speaker 5: sort of typical behavior, this mo of like, whatever you've

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Speaker 5: got going on isn't as important as what we've got

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Speaker 5: going on, and what we want and what we need

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Speaker 5: completely supersedes any of your concerns, and.

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Speaker 4: We are going to quote unquote make it right. What

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Speaker 4: we did.

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Speaker 5: We acknowledge somewhat that we shouldn't have taken your land.

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Speaker 5: Maybe don't even go so far as they shouldn't have,

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Speaker 5: but we're going to give you something in return and

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Speaker 5: then just not get it just completely, you know, leave

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Speaker 5: people hanging after being the one that wronged them in

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Speaker 5: the first place. Now you're the one who's supposed to

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Speaker 5: mitigate that wronging. And I mean, it's it seems like

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Speaker 5: a conflict of interest, is it to the largest possible degree?

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Speaker 2: What?

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Speaker 3: No way, But yes, you're absolutely right, and I agree

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Speaker 3: with you. Know, there's much more to the story of

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Speaker 3: the body Shop. Like we were saying earlier, it did

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Speaker 3: become a halfway house for people who had been discharged

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Speaker 3: from incarceration on a federal or local level or a

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Speaker 3: state level from the Native community. Eventually, just like the

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Speaker 3: original attempt to occupy Alcatraz shout out to Ridiculous History episodes,

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Speaker 3: eventually the autobody Shop did have to shut down. Yet

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Speaker 3: I would argue this showed Leonard the way, This showed

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Speaker 3: him that change is possible. And during this time he

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Speaker 3: also becomes intensely involved with land reclamation issues, with alcohol counseling,

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Speaker 3: and with initiatives to preserve native land in Seattle during

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Speaker 3: the time when real estate is booming. I like check

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Speaker 3: out if you want to learn more about this bick

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Speaker 3: out the takeover of Fort Lawton on March eighth, nineteen seventy.

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Speaker 3: At this point we mentioned the earlier initiative. You can

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Speaker 3: learn more about it and occupy ALCATRAZM ridiculous history. Leonard

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Speaker 3: was part of the United Indians of All Tribes group

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Speaker 3: that scaled the fences around Fort Lawton, and Fort Lawton

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Speaker 3: is contiguous with the Greater Seattle area. The fort was

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Speaker 3: going to be decommissioned. The local horse traders wanted it

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Speaker 3: to be a park, like a local park, and they

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Speaker 3: were not listening to peaceful means of negotiation from the

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Speaker 3: native populations, so they got the fence jumped. And when

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Speaker 3: these guys jumped the fence, they are confronted with flamethrowers

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Speaker 3: and machine guns, and then they peacefully surrender and the

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Speaker 3: law enforcement beats the snot out of them, arrest them,

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Speaker 3: and then when they take them to their cells to

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Speaker 3: this stockade, they beat the snot out of them again.

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Speaker 3: Leonard eventually is released, but he refuses to leave the

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Speaker 3: property until every other protester is also set free because

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Speaker 3: they add no real charges to keep these people on.

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Speaker 5: Well that's because well, I mean, just to give a

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Speaker 5: little bit more detail maybe around what led to them

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Speaker 5: believing that they were righteous in jumping the fence. The

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Speaker 5: decommissioned fort was very similar to what had happened with Alcatraz,

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Speaker 5: where it was no longer being used as a federal penitentiary.

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Speaker 4: Or no longer being used.

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Speaker 5: Therefore, there was a law in the books I believe,

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Speaker 5: I can't remember the exact name that supposedly would grant

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Speaker 5: Native people the ability to petition to have those lands

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Speaker 5: returned to them for use as cultural centers or as

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Speaker 5: heritage centers or what have you.

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Speaker 3: And that's the Fort Laramie Treaty of eighteen sixty eight,

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Speaker 3: which allows Native American populations to appropriate quote surplus federal land.

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Speaker 4: There you go.

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Speaker 5: So what they were doing was technically legal, and yet

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Speaker 5: they were met with a show of force.

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Speaker 2: It's so weird when we're thinking about the legality of

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Speaker 2: everything we're going to be talking about this episode, it

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Speaker 2: makes your headsp well, yeah, because it really is. It's

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Speaker 2: an authority from a country that officially, on paper runs

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Speaker 2: the land everybody is on except for these little places

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Speaker 2: that they've granted to the original peoples that lived there,

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Speaker 2: right where.

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Speaker 3: The laws, those covenants yet exactly exactly.

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Speaker 2: It's when you're thinking about what is against the law

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Speaker 2: or not against the law, or okay for a group

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Speaker 2: of protesters to do or not okay for them to do,

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Speaker 2: it gets so muddied.

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Speaker 5: Shifts depending on who's in charge and who it benefits.

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Speaker 5: You know, I really, I mean, I would consider myself

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Speaker 5: for the most part of law abiding citizen, but stuff

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Speaker 5: like this really does kind of call into question the

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Speaker 5: whole nature of what is legal and what is right

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Speaker 5: now and the relationship between those things.

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Speaker 3: And here we find common cause with every long time listener,

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Speaker 3: every fellow conspiracy realist tuning in to stuff they don't

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Speaker 3: want you to know. Ideologies may differ, but a promise

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Speaker 3: broken is a promise broken. And if we exercise empathy,

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Speaker 3: we can absolutely understand the objective track record of various

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Speaker 3: treaties being proposed and then being broken, and then being

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Speaker 3: proposed and then being broken, and then being proposed and

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Speaker 3: proposed and then being broken and then being proposed and

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Speaker 3: then being broken. I yield my time.

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Speaker 2: It reminds me a lot of wartime reporting, and it

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Speaker 2: depends so much on who's telling you the story right

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Speaker 2: where you're gathering information from or if you hear a

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Speaker 2: story about Leonard Peltier and any of these movements. Whoever's

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Speaker 2: telling you the story specifically in that time period is

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Speaker 2: going to shape a lot of how you view this,

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Speaker 2: this thing, all of these events that we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: So you just I mean, I know, we have to

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Speaker 2: we talk about keeping that in mind at all times

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Speaker 2: when we're exploring the world, right, but just in this

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Speaker 2: case in particular, especially if you are listening to some

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Speaker 2: of the things the FBI has said about Leonard and

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Speaker 2: all of the various things that Leonard got up to,

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Speaker 2: you're going to have a whole different picture.

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Speaker 3: So it's nineteen seventy two and Leonard joins the American

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Speaker 3: Indian Movement at the behest of a guy named Dennis Banks,

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Speaker 3: and he joins this to further what he calls the

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Speaker 3: resistance that he started when he was nine years old

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Speaker 3: at that Indian school abusing those kids, and he participates

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Speaker 3: in something called the Trail Broken Treaties March again, peaceful

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Speaker 3: protest should be part of the American fabric. He gets

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Speaker 3: jammed up. I'm gonna be honest with you. He spent

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Speaker 3: most of the Occupy Alcatraz movement in a jail in Wisconsin,

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Speaker 3: where he was charged with attempted murder related to another

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Speaker 3: protest in Washington, DC. He claimed he had been set

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Speaker 3: up by the police, and that claim turned out to

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Speaker 3: be true. They were stitching them up. As we've mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 3: it was co intelpro in full wingspan. He makes bail

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Speaker 3: that wingspan references for you.

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Speaker 2: Nolo before we find out, right before he gets acquitted

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Speaker 2: all that stuff, the next thing happens.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, he makes bail in nineteen seventy three spring April,

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Speaker 3: and he joins a protest in Milwaukee, and then he

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Speaker 3: heads over to Wounded Knee with people he's met before

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Speaker 3: and in the course of that protest movement.

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Speaker 5: This is the site of the Battle of Wounded Kney.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, loosely, and he hopes to he and the

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Speaker 3: group he's with hope to deliver supplies as the siege

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Speaker 3: on Wounded Kney draws to a close. And they also

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Speaker 3: at this point, just like in Occupy Alcatraz, they also

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Speaker 3: know there are rival factions. There are a lot of

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Speaker 3: cooks there are a lot of egos, right, so they

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Speaker 3: want to calm that down and they want everyone to

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Speaker 3: remember the larger mission. But by this time, by April

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Speaker 3: of nineteen seventy three, the FEDS consider Leonard a fugitive

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Speaker 3: and he is accused of unlawful flight to avoid that

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Speaker 3: attempted murder charge. We'll give you the high level stuff

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Speaker 3: here before we go to the atbreak. Leonard is eventually

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Speaker 3: convicted of murdering two FBI agents. We will give you

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Speaker 3: their names as we dive in. Aside from a brief

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Speaker 3: escape in nineteen seventy nine, and he's convicted in nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventy seven. He's been incarcerated ever since. Serious questions about

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Speaker 3: the legality of the trial remain, and as we record

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Speaker 3: this evening, he is alive. His supporters consider him the

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Speaker 3: longest incarcerated political prisoner in United States history. So decades later,

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Speaker 3: we are joining many people asking the question that has

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Speaker 3: haunted thousands since Leonard's conviction. Is this man guilty of

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Speaker 3: the crimes he was convicted for, or has the US

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Speaker 3: government yet again in prison demand for crimes he did

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Speaker 3: not commit.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a.

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Speaker 5: Quick break and hear a word from our sponsor and

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Speaker 5: then get into the details.

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Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy. It really like the crimes,

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Speaker 3: whether or not he's guilty, it depends upon whom you ask. Officially,

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Speaker 3: the US government at every single, again practicing level, considers

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Speaker 3: Leonard a convicted murderer. But here's the thing. The guy

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Speaker 3: has always maintained his innocence and numerous supporters, including people

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Speaker 3: who were originally part of the prosecution on his case,

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Speaker 3: they agree.

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Speaker 5: Right, And to really understand the level of controversy surrounding

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Speaker 5: this whole case, as well as the accusations of conspiracy,

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Speaker 5: we have to first take a look at the events

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Speaker 5: that led up to these alleged crimes. So we've talked

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Speaker 5: about this a little bit before, but let's kind of

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Speaker 5: get into some of the minutias with the timeline of

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Speaker 5: the shootout and the murders that you mentioned, Ben. Back

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Speaker 5: in the mid nineteen seventies, when Peltier and a handful

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Speaker 5: of other AIM members went to the Pine Ridge Indian

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Speaker 5: Reservation in South Dakota in the hopes of assisting the

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Speaker 5: Oglala Lakota in helping to plan some community activities, things

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Speaker 5: like religious ceremonies and programs that would help ensure their

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Speaker 5: self sufficiency and also to help organize some teams that

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Speaker 5: could offer them security, you know, because they frankly did

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Speaker 5: not feel particularly safe from you know, the US government.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I want to backtrek really quickly too. I

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Speaker 5: mentioned the you mentioned Ben that he went to Wounded Knee,

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Speaker 5: and I asked that was the site of the Battle

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Speaker 5: of Wounded Kni. I just wanted to backtrack and say,

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Speaker 5: it's a little bit more like a massacre at Wounded Kny.

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Speaker 5: That is what it is referred to often as, because

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Speaker 5: it was essentially just an absolute slaughter of Native people,

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Speaker 5: you know, by US soldiers. So the notion of needing

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Speaker 5: security to literally protect themselves from those that might do

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Speaker 5: them harm from outside their community absolutely makes sense as

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Speaker 5: precedent for it.

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Speaker 3: Yes, agreed, and think about the panthers, you know, co

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Speaker 3: intel again is flapping its wings and sold do dads.

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Speaker 3: It is attempting to infiltrate right, and it is also,

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Speaker 3: I would argue, under the auspice of that sith Lord Hoover,

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Speaker 3: it is attempting to maybe generate conflict when conflict does

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Speaker 3: not need to exist. On June twenty fifth, nineteen seventy five,

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Speaker 3: two FBI special agents, Ronald Arthur Williams and Jack Ross Kohler.

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Speaker 3: They question one of Leonard's associates, a guy named Norman Charles,

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Speaker 3: and when they talk to him, you know, and they say, hey,

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Speaker 3: tensions are high. There's a guy who has been accused

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Speaker 3: of assaulting to local ranch workers. We think he may

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Speaker 3: have stolen some cowboy boots. His name's Jimmy Eagle. Do

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Speaker 3: you know Jimmy Eagle. We think he drives a red

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Speaker 3: pickup truck, which will be important later. And so on

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Speaker 3: the next day, on June twenty sixth, nineteen seventy five,

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Speaker 3: these agents return to the Pine Bridge Reservation and they

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Speaker 3: go to a place called Jumping Bull Ranch. They are

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Speaker 3: searching for this guy, Jimmy Eagle. Sometime after eleven am,

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Speaker 3: both agents who are by the way in plane clothing.

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Speaker 3: They are in separate on marked cars. They start following

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Speaker 3: something we mentioned previously, a Chevy suburban correll occupied by

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Speaker 3: letter Norman Charles and a guy named Joe Stunts. The agents,

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Speaker 3: at this point, very important to note, are not aware

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Speaker 3: of Leonard's outstanding warrant. They're focused on finding this Jimmy

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Speaker 3: Eagle guy and spoiler The FBI's official statement is they

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Speaker 3: believe that Chevy suburban belonged to Jimmy Eagle. The FBI's

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Speaker 3: official statement as.

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Speaker 5: Of now right, and this leads to more murky stuff,

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Speaker 5: the official story being that the Chevy made it to

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Speaker 5: the Jumping Bull ranch, whose owners had allowed Aim to

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Speaker 5: camp out there. The three men in the suburban stopped,

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Speaker 5: got out of the vehicle and began to exchange gunfire

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Speaker 5: with federal agents. Agent Williams radio local dispatch, claiming the

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Speaker 5: vehicle's occupants were firing on them.

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Speaker 3: Williams says, if reinforcements do not arrive, both he and

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Speaker 3: Kohler will be killed. And we have to remember the

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Speaker 3: context here. Tensions had already been quite high for quite time,

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Speaker 3: and many residents at the ranch. They heard the gunfire,

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Speaker 3: right they saw the unfamiliar cars, They returned that gunfire.

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Speaker 3: As a result, these agents are outgunned. We mentioned this earlier.

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Speaker 3: Another person working for the FBI, agent Gary Adams, responded

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Speaker 3: to the call that Williams put out, which we previously

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Speaker 3: mentioned in our American Indian Movement episode. But he and

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Speaker 3: other officers working under the auspice of BIA, they encountered

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Speaker 3: gunfire they were held back. They could not get to

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Speaker 3: the scene on time. So Kohler and Williams are murdered.

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Speaker 3: That is true. Those people died, and there are multiple suspects.

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Speaker 3: There are also multiple firearms. However, someone has to go down.

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Speaker 3: And a side note, the charges against Jimmy Eagle for

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Speaker 3: the assault of those two local ranchers and the theft

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Speaker 3: of those purported boots. Those charges are later dropped. Jimmy

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Speaker 3: Eagle is a free man.

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Speaker 2: That crazy. The whole reason for those agents to be

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Speaker 2: on that land, in that area at that time, it

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Speaker 2: just goes away. This is something to note here. According

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Speaker 2: to official documents trial documents, the gunfire lasted around ten minutes,

436
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 2: So like the firefight that happened, there are very few

437
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 2: shots actually fired by these two agents. I think it

438
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 2: was five in total that was fired by them. But

439
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: then there were around one hundred and twenty five bullet

440
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: holes in the vehicle or vehicles.

441
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 3: And that's a handgun versus AR fifteen situation.

442
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 2: And well there's also a shotgun that one of the

443
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 2: officers used, and I think a rifle that the other

444
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: officer used at least a few times a few shots. Yeah,

445
00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: But then the craziest thing, and I think that's an

446
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: important here, is that, as you're saying, Ben, that the

447
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: other officers finally make it to the scene right to

448
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 2: discover the bodies, and what they find is two officers

449
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: who've been shot multiple times in different places in their body,

450
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: but each of them have at least one bullet to

451
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 2: their head, which doesn't necessarily mean point blank execution style shot,

452
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: but these are very specific bullets they're used, and one

453
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 2: of the officers has two bullet holes.

454
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 3: Right, which we're going to get into in a moment there.

455
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 3: And the only reason I raise the point about the

456
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 3: AR fifteen idea is because it does become part of

457
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 3: the forensic investigation, the idea of automatic versus non automatic.

458
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 3: So the firearms used by the FBI do not include

459
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 3: automatic weapons. Tragic deaths, right, they are tragic. These guys

460
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,479
Speaker 3: are just trying to do their job, you know what

461
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 3: I mean. They're not being purposeful dicks, right, They're following orders.

462
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 3: Shout out to Hannah Errand and the banality of evil.

463
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,959
Speaker 3: There three men ultimately arrested in connection with the murder

464
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 3: of these two FBI agents. The first two guys who

465
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 3: are arrested before Leonard are Robert Robideaux and Darrell Butler

466
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 3: or Dino the I n oh, And both of these

467
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 3: guys are at the Jumping Bull ranch during the time

468
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 3: of the shootout. And to the earlier point made ten

469
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 3: minutes may sound brief, but that's actually pretty long for

470
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 3: the fire fight.

471
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. It was described by media at the time

472
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 2: as lasting for hours. So that's why that's want to

473
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 2: make that ten minute thing, just put it out there.

474
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 2: At least that's according to the FBI. The only lasted

475
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 2: ten minutes and to testimony given during the trial.

476
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 3: And ten minutes is on the outside of plug ability

477
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 3: because it's not a video game. When you get tagged,

478
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 3: you bleed, and.

479
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 4: Ten minutes in bullet time feels like ours to me.

480
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: I can't imagine well yeah, or a military situation where

481
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 2: there's purposeful just firing to try and you know, make

482
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: whoever you're firing against.

483
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's correct. I agree with that. And Leonard believes

484
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 3: he has no chance at a fair trial. Let's remember

485
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 3: he already served time for crime that he says he

486
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 3: never committed, and so he flees to Canada and goes

487
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 3: over the northern border. He buys a station wagon and

488
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 3: it's September ninth of the same year. Ammunition in the

489
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 3: wagon exploded. According to again official reports, people discovered agent

490
00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 3: Kohler's rifle and three oh eight and they also found

491
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 3: an AR fifteen in the remains of the vehicle. Over

492
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 3: the years, as we mentioned, Leonard has provided multiple alibis,

493
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 3: none of which persuaded juries were indeed the Pellet courts,

494
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 3: we do know he acquired an RV, a recreational vehicle.

495
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 3: He made his escape, He was stopped briefly by a

496
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 3: state trooper out in Oregon, and there was an exchange

497
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 3: of gunfire. Again, Leonard fled on foot, and according to

498
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 3: the reports, Agent Kohler's handgun was found under the front

499
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 3: seat of that RV, which does mean that there was

500
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 3: some sort of physical presence during the firefight, But it

501
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 3: does not mean he murdered those guys.

502
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 2: Well, it doesn't. But what it does mean is that

503
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: it looks really bad for Peltier right now, if you

504
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 2: take into account these actions. Right, that's the second time

505
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,479
Speaker 2: that it's known of by whoever's investigating this case, that

506
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 2: Peltier was stopped and shots were fired.

507
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 6: Right.

508
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: Whether or not shots were fired that first time, whether

509
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 2: or not Peltier fired his AR fifteen that they're claiming

510
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: at those two officers. Originally that's one thing, but in

511
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: this case, it's being claimed, at least by law enforcement,

512
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,479
Speaker 2: that he's fired again, this time on a state trooper

513
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: in Oregon and escaped and or ran. This second time,

514
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 2: he's run from a firing against some kind of law

515
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 2: enforcement officer.

516
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 3: Further, he took a firearm.

517
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 4: From that agent.

518
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah.

519
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 4: But in this narrative, yes.

520
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 2: You're if you're lining all this stuff up, and let's

521
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 2: say you're an investigator hunting down whoever killed these FBI agents,

522
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: this looks terrible for Peltier.

523
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 3: And so it comes as no surprise that just before

524
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 3: Christmas in nineteen seventy five, on December twenty second, Leonard

525
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 3: Peltierra is named on the FBI ten Most Wanted List.

526
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 3: Now cast your memory back, folks, if you grew up

527
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 3: with shows like America's Most Wanted, you will realize that

528
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,760
Speaker 3: being on the ten most wanted list of the FBI,

529
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 3: it does go a long way toward catching people. And

530
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 3: you know, I'm not the biggest fan of copaganda. I'm

531
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 3: on record on that I think all of us can agree,

532
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 3: but often when people are on that wanted list, they

533
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 3: deserve to be.

534
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 2: There often, Right, I'm looking for the nineteen seventy five

535
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 2: actual list of all the other people that he shared

536
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 2: it with. Oh, this is what they put on his

537
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: wanted for execution type murders of two US FBI agents

538
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: related to the American Indian Movement.

539
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, they made sure to put the organization that log line.

540
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:06,760
Speaker 3: And he is arrested on February sixth, nineteen seventy six,

541
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 3: in Hinton, Alberta by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. We

542
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 3: know it's a funny name, but do take them seriously.

543
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 3: He is extradited to the US in December of that year.

544
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 3: Now a lot of US are hearing the timeline and saying,

545
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 3: hold up. Guys arrested on February not extradited until December.

546
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 3: Part of that is because there were already claims of

547
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 3: a stitch up, and Canada itself, the government of Canada,

548
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 3: later called into question the FBI's paperwork which ostensibly justified

549
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 3: this extradition. Do we want to talk about extradition for

550
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 3: a moment, Yeah?

551
00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 2: Please, Yeah, you can't just call a country and say, hey,

552
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 2: we need this guy. It's not that simple, right.

553
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, it involves a negotiation and bargaining at that point.

554
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 5: I mean, unless depending on the laws, but usually there's

555
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 5: like some sort of exchange or at least there's an

556
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 5: opportunity for one.

557
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah, you nailed it. Even if even if

558
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 3: you're talking about two countries that have standing extradition agreements

559
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 3: that are bilateral, like let's talk directly and let's hunt

560
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 3: bad guys together. Even in those cases like the Canada,

561
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 3: keep it in like the Canadas or the United States,

562
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 3: is they can deny a request if something doesn't add up.

563
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 3: In Canada originally approved this extradition request based on documents

564
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 3: submitted by the FBI, but not too much later or

565
00:36:55,160 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 3: An Almond allma and T, Canada's solicitor general at the time.

566
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 3: He stated the FBI's paperwork simply did not match up,

567
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 3: and in particular, they were very concerned about witness statements.

568
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, there was one one person you'll hear

569
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: about a ton in the story at least early on

570
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 2: in this kind of time period. Right here is Myrtle

571
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 2: poor bear. This is somebody who lived around the area

572
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 2: where all of this went down in Pine Ridge and

573
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: at least, the affidavit that was put forward was that

574
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 2: this person was Peltier's girlfriend or yeah, I think that's

575
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 2: how they put it.

576
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 3: That was the claim.

577
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and knew all this information about him, and he

578
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: had admitted all these things to her. That basically lined

579
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 2: up exactly with the FBI's story of how things went down, but.

580
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 3: Right right. But also side note, if you're looking for

581
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 3: that name, it is poor Bear, two different words. Peltier

582
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 3: and others in the Pine Ridge community seemed to unanimously

583
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 3: agree that, no matter what happened during that shootout, Myrtle

584
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 3: Poor Bear did not in fact know Leonard, and additionally,

585
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 3: despite her affidavit, was not present during the shootout and

586
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 3: the subsequent murders. This falsehood appears to be confirmed, as

587
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 3: Poor Bear herself later admitted lying. And as we talk

588
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 3: about so often these evenings, Myrtle Poor Bear claimed the

589
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 3: FBI agents interrogating her coersed her into making these claims,

590
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,720
Speaker 3: and indeed she says they threatened her. In fact, later

591
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 3: Poor Bear attempts to testify about the FBI intimidation at

592
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 3: Leonard's trial. How whoever, the judge bars her testimony on

593
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 3: the grounds of mental incompetence.

594
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 2: This is disturbing, it's crazy, it's crazy town. You can

595
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 2: hear her say these things on an episode of sixty

596
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 2: Minutes titled The Last Sue Brave, and the last time

597
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 2: I saw that it aired was like nineteen ninety two.

598
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 2: You can find a clip of it on YouTube, though,

599
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 2: Do check that out because you can just you can

600
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 2: see her say it directly into the camera. This is

601
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:29,399
Speaker 2: what they did.

602
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 3: And for the implications, it seems that our friends at

603
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 3: the FBI had already decided Leonard would be their sacrificial goat,

604
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 3: their culprit, their stone chair, and they were fine ignoring

605
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 3: the mental issues documented on poor Bear's behalf so long

606
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 3: as poor Bear played ball. But they were also fine

607
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,720
Speaker 3: assassinating her care character if her narrative did not tell

608
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 3: the story that they wished her to tell. This is

609
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 3: a very dangerous thing. It is unfortunately a common conspiracy

610
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 3: and law enforcement.

611
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,439
Speaker 2: It is really creepy. It seems as though somebody high

612
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 2: up enough said Peltier's our guy, and let's do what

613
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 2: we got to do to get him behind bars. However, we, however, we.

614
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 3: Do that, and perhaps more importantly, for a look at

615
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 3: the internal culture and ideology the FBI. They said, two

616
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 3: of our guys died, so anything that we can do

617
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 3: to help catch the man we believe killed him is

618
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 3: for the greater good. And if you find anything that

619
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 3: counteracts or contradicts that narrative, then you should think a

620
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 3: lot about your loyalty.

621
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 5: Well, and the guy's a convenient I mean, he's a

622
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 5: very inconvenient individual to have out in the world because

623
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 5: he's an activist. He's doing all this stuff that our

624
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 5: counter to the goals of the kind of statu quote.

625
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 5: And I mean, I don't know, guys, We've all done

626
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 5: a lot of stories and worked on podcasts and talked

627
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 5: about here on this show and others cases where Patsy's

628
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 5: are kind of you know, picked or identified, and you

629
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 5: start to kind of get a sense of some of

630
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 5: the criteria for that. And oftentimes it's like a win

631
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 5: win where it's, oh, this guy gets to someone to

632
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 5: pin this murder on and also get somebody out of

633
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 5: the picture who you know would be a pain in

634
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 5: our butts.

635
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 2: Dude, I cannot recall who the individual was. It was

636
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 2: interviewed on that sixty Minutes episode, but it was someone

637
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 2: representing the FBI's position, and basically what he was saying was, look,

638
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: the FBI didn't do anything wrong in this case, but

639
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: if we did, if we did do something wrong, it

640
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 2: wouldn't bother my conscience at all because we got the

641
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 2: right guy.

642
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 3: Essentially, sure, big Air quotes around right.

643
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,879
Speaker 2: Yes, well exactly, but again, in this guy's opinion, who

644
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 2: was representing the Bureau at the time, the belief is

645
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: already there. As you said, Ben, the belief comes first,

646
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 2: and then we make the shoes fit.

647
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 3: Not good science, no good law enforcement. So we know

648
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 3: that Leonard Peltier fights the extradition charge, he is not successful.

649
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,800
Speaker 3: At the same time, the other two men additionally charged

650
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 3: in these homicides, Robert Rubdeaux and Dino Butler, they are

651
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 3: acquitted on the grounds of self defense. The jury says

652
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 3: the forensic evidence proves these two guys could not have

653
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 3: been the ones to fatally shoot those FBI agents, and

654
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:45,720
Speaker 3: the US government could supply no witnesses capable of proving

655
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 3: those two men knew they were firing on FBI officers, right.

656
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 2: And the reasoning for this whole thing it wasn't these

657
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 2: two guys is because of the two head wounds from

658
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 2: a two to two three tie bullet that were found

659
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 2: in both agents that were killed that day, which they

660
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 2: reasoned at least on paper and in the trial that

661
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 2: was the weapon that Peltier owned.

662
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 3: And as we'll see, Leonard Peltier's trial went quite differently.

663
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 3: We're going to pause for a word from our sponsors

664
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 3: and won't be right back. We've returned. So the two

665
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 3: men of the original three who are accused and go

666
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 3: to trial on these homicide charges, two thirds of them

667
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 3: get acquitted. This is not the case for Leonard. The

668
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 3: FBI claims they have not only forensic evidence, but they

669
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 3: also have eye witnesses linking Leonard directly to the homicide

670
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 3: of those special agents. In specific, the court claims the

671
00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 3: FBI agents are murdered with close up gunshots to the

672
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 3: heads earlier point. One has one gunshot wound, another as too,

673
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 3: And they're saying that according to the science, these men

674
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 3: were murdered wild defenseless due to previous wounds sustained in

675
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 3: that shootout.

676
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 4: Coup de gras, right, Yeah, finishing them off execution.

677
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it looks as though someone approached the vehicle and

678
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 2: killed them afterwards. One of the officers had a bullet

679
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 2: wound in his hand that appears to have then gone

680
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:35,760
Speaker 2: into his head, so as though you imagine.

681
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 3: Something like he raised his hand to protect himself exactly. Yeah.

682
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 3: And because of this, because of this evidence presented at

683
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 3: the trial, Leonard is not able to submit what we

684
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 3: would call self defense testimony. The idea then is clearly,

685
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 3: these people, whomever they may be, whatever their providence was,

686
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 3: whether or not you knew they were a they were

687
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 3: not capable of defending themselves, and someone executed them. But

688
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 3: this is the beginning the controversy. The controversy runs rampant,

689
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 3: their accusations, numerous accusations of prosecutorial and governmental misconduct. Two

690
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,760
Speaker 3: witnesses in the initial trial that Leonard has to undergo,

691
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 3: they recant their statements and they say the FBI threatened me,

692
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 3: they coerced me into false testimony. Sound familiar, shout out myrtle.

693
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 2: Yep MRTL by the way, like Myrtle beach.

694
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 5: So what we do know is that at least one

695
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 5: of the way that says was given an immunity deal.

696
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 5: If they were to play nice and play along with

697
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 5: this narrative, they would be saved from further prosecution. And

698
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 5: speaking of you, know changing stories midstream. The FBI also

699
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 5: changed their story, changing their previous statements during the course

700
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 5: of the trial. We also know that agents Williams and

701
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 5: Coher originally said that they were pursuing Jimmy Eagle.

702
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 4: You'll recall the red pickup truck.

703
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 5: He was accused of having beaten some people up and

704
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 5: stolen some boots. I believe the FBI could affirm this

705
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 5: on the day of the shootouts.

706
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 3: And we only know that due to radio intercepts from

707
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 3: the time. By the way, because to your point, Noel,

708
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 3: all right, First off, Leonard did many things. He did

709
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 3: not drive a red pickup truck, and authorities have been

710
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 3: stopping red pickup trucks in general in the area for weeks.

711
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 3: In fact, he had a Chevy Suburban, which we outlined earlier.

712
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 3: Chevy Suburban. For anyone who doesn't know, it's a large suv,

713
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 3: even if you're not a car person. It's difficult to

714
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 3: confuse that with a pickup truck because its back half

715
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 3: is covered, whereas a pickup truck has an open bed.

716
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 2: Leonards, I would just say on that Chevy suburban, if

717
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 2: you look at the actual images of it. The FBI

718
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 2: has some images you can look at right now on

719
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 2: FBI dot gov and you just search for Resmer's R E.

720
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 2: S m U RS case and you can find it.

721
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 2: And it is just for my own eyes and I

722
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 2: didn't grow up. Then this is like, I don't know

723
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 2: exactly what year make that is, but it is a

724
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 2: nineteen sixties nineteen seventies looking suv, So it is it

725
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 2: does look like a truck that has some kind of

726
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 2: thing over the bed. That's all I would say, is

727
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 2: it looks a little more just like a truck to

728
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 2: me because it is that old model.

729
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, And maybe you can help me out with this.

730
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 3: As a partially color blind entity, I according to the

731
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 3: pictures and descriptions, I am under the impression this was

732
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 3: not red. It was orange with a prom white rooftop.

733
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 3: Is that correct?

734
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 2: That's exactly right, very white right across the top, and

735
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 2: it is a very red orange color, let's say.

736
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 3: Got it? So the FBI to what you were saying earlier.

737
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 3: In all, at the time of the trial, despite their

738
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:21,399
Speaker 3: earlier evidence, they claimed they had not been looking for

739
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 3: a red pickup truck. They claimed they had been looking

740
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 3: for a quote, orange and white van the entire time.

741
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 4: Danta da da.

742
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 3: N. We never lie, says Uncle Sam. It's the truth

743
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 3: that changes.

744
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 2: It is so crazy because it doesn't resemble a van

745
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 2: at all, even a van from that time period.

746
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 3: No, and there were really cool vans in the seventies. Now,

747
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 3: we talked a bit about this just a few minutes ago.

748
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 3: But we have to get into just the ballistics, right,

749
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 3: the claim that prosecution had that there was an AR

750
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:06,760
Speaker 3: fifteen or AR fifteen style thing that fired the fatal shots.

751
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,919
Speaker 3: They never correct me if I'm wrong here. They never

752
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 3: provide a cartridge casings for those close up shots. Does

753
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 3: that mean someone took the casings had the wherewithal to

754
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 3: do so?

755
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,720
Speaker 2: For over one hundred bullets fired, right, that's a little

756
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 2: I don't know.

757
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 3: They did find other casings of plenty.

758
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 2: Yes, but if one of the prominent weapons that was

759
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 2: firing those one hundred shots was an AR style two

760
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 2: to two three like bullet bullets, then it is highly

761
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 2: unlikely that it would just not be there. Although if

762
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 2: someone walked up to the car to execute the officers,

763
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 2: you can imagine those particular casings. If there's only three

764
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 2: shots fired that we're talking about, those reasonably at least

765
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 2: could be picked up right.

766
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, plausibly possibly, But in the heat of the moment,

767
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 3: right at the conclusion of a very long firefight, with

768
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 3: knowing that the FBI agents also expended case scenes, would

769
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 3: you have would you have the presence of mind to

770
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 3: pick your three?

771
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 2: It depends on what's happening and why. Right, If this

772
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,720
Speaker 2: is like a full on execution or a targeted killing

773
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 2: in some way, then maybe if this is in the

774
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 2: heat of the moment a firefight breaks out, probably not

775
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 2: like who in that moment with all that adournaline running

776
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 2: is going to have that thought. This is what the

777
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 2: FBI's website says, and it's talking specifically about the AR

778
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 2: fifteen that Peltier owned. It says an examination by the

779
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 2: FBI laboratory made a positive match with a two two

780
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 2: three shell casing found in the trunk of Agent Kohler's car,

781
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 2: So it's one of the vehicles that was fired upon

782
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 2: and marks produced by the extractor of Peltier's AR fifteen.

783
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 2: But listen to this, guys, no match could be made

784
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 2: with the firing pin quote because it was too smooth.

785
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 3: Right, right, right, And we also know that multiple independent

786
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 3: witnesses have found there was no hard forensic evidence supporting

787
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 3: the FBI's claims. Even here in twenty twenty four, there

788
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:37,320
Speaker 3: were different weapons present in the area during the shootout.

789
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 3: There was also more than one AR fifteen style firearm

790
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 3: in the area. And just to get in front of

791
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 3: the emails here, an AR fifteen itself is not a

792
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 3: fully automatic weapon. It's considered semi automatic. So for anybody

793
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 3: who's seen maybe too many movies and you're thinking in

794
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:03,439
Speaker 3: AR fifteen could not do three discrete shots, it can.

795
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 3: And I think that's a ghoulish but important thing to remember.

796
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,720
Speaker 3: We also know that the prosecutor wrapped up his case

797
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 3: by saying, we proved that he being lettered, went down

798
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 3: to the bodies and executed these two young men, and

799
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 3: they were young, at point blank range. But later at

800
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 3: the appellate hearing, the government attorney conceded the following, and Noel,

801
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:32,720
Speaker 3: could you do us the honors?

802
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 4: Oh gosh, the dishonor.

803
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 5: We had a murder. We had numerous shooters. We do

804
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 5: not know who specifically fired what killing shots. We do

805
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 5: not know quote unquote who shot the agents.

806
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the government saying it.

807
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 2: It is the government saying, how do you walk that back?

808
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 2: It's messed up, man, And for me, it's even further

809
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:01,839
Speaker 2: messed up to watch that sixty minutes episode and here

810
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 2: Leonard say, yeah, I fired at those agents, he says,

811
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 2: He says, yeah, I fired at those agents, but I

812
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 2: did not kill them.

813
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

814
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,439
Speaker 2: But in your mind you think, well, somebody, at least

815
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 2: on that side, somebody making that specific quote, would think, oh,

816
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 2: well you you admit to firing at them. Well that's enough, yep,

817
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 2: and it it's just awful.

818
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 3: He's always been on record saying he participated in the firefight,

819
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 3: and multiple other people have because again the context of

820
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 3: this time, right, we know co intel pro let's get

821
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 3: the all right, we got to say this. In two

822
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:45,799
Speaker 3: thousand and four, Foy Act goes through. There's another examination

823
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:50,760
Speaker 3: of the original FBI ballistics report and an impartial expert

824
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 3: evaluates what was referred to earlier, that firing pin linked

825
00:53:56,040 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 3: to the gun that must have everybody agrees probably was

826
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 3: the same firearm, so the same firearm that executed FBI

827
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 3: special agents Williams and Kohler. This impartial expert finds that

828
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 3: cartridge cases from the scene of the crime, when recovered,

829
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 3: did not come from the rifle that was tied to

830
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,800
Speaker 3: Leonard Peltier. There's just no way it could have happened

831
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 3: exactly well.

832
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 5: And also it's like, I mean, to a certain degree,

833
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 5: when you're exchanging in fire with these agents, given the

834
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 5: history and given everything we know about the government's relationship

835
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,760
Speaker 5: to these groups, it's like a.

836
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 4: Form of self defense in a way.

837
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 5: I mean, these people are coming for you, They're coming

838
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 5: for what you have. It's like you are not being

839
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 5: treated like a citizen, and.

840
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 4: You are not.

841
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 5: They are not your friends, they're not there to protect you.

842
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 5: So I just I don't even hold it against him

843
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 5: that he entered into a firefight because at a certain point,

844
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 5: you are just protecting yourself.

845
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,399
Speaker 3: And he had no way of knowing who these people were.

846
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 5: That's right, but even yeah, exactly, But I'm just saying,

847
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,319
Speaker 5: what to Matt's point earlier in the episode, just how

848
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 5: this casts so much doubt on like what is legal,

849
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 5: who is who are the good guys. It's just really hard,

850
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 5: you know, to think of like the FBI in this case,

851
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 5: as being out for anything other than just protecting this

852
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 5: legacy that we've been describing.

853
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 2: I think it gets murky when you're talking about good

854
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:27,240
Speaker 2: guys and bad guys anytime both sides are holding guns, right,

855
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 2: oh oh.

856
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 4: Boy, fog of war, I think they call it right.

857
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, And I want to bring something in here,

858
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 2: just because we're in the timeline in the two thousands now,

859
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 2: but in the I think it was in the nineties,

860
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 2: there was this person that came forward and gave an interview.

861
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 2: I think it was to Peter Matheson who called himself

862
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 2: mister X. He gave an interview on camera where he

863
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 2: covered his face, they altered his voice, and he gives

864
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 2: a first person view of him killing these two FBI agents.

865
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 2: He said, I approached the wounded agents. One of them

866
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 2: brought up a pistol and fired it at me. I

867
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 2: didn't give him a chance to fire again. I shot him.

868
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 3: The other one and pulls up the hand.

869
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 2: I immediately turned and put two bullets in the other

870
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 2: agent because I didn't think I just shot the other agent.

871
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,879
Speaker 2: This is a person that was never verified. And then

872
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 2: it came forward that this person appears to have been lying,

873
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 2: and it was, at least according to the FBI, it

874
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 2: was a lie.

875
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 3: And if you want to learn more about the Foyer

876
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,760
Speaker 3: request that we're talking about, check out who is Leonard

877
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 3: Peltier dot info. You can read the fullness there, and

878
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 3: I appreciate the point also about the questionable witness testimony,

879
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 3: which we see again. Whenever you hear somebody doing the

880
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 3: part of voice with their facial pixelated, you have to wonder.

881
00:56:58,239 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 4: That's it.

882
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, for sure. Well and in the sixty

883
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 2: minutes episode as well, just sorry, last piece on this.

884
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 2: You can hear you hear the host ask Leonard, did

885
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 2: you kill those agents? He says no. He says do

886
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 2: you know who killed those agents? And Leonard's response is,

887
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 2: I can't tell you. I'm not a rat, I'm not

888
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 2: an informant. We believed in what we were fighting for.

889
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 2: I lived it, I experienced it, I witnessed.

890
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 3: It, which is very much an answer to a different question.

891
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 3: And that is honestly a little bit of media training there,

892
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 3: because you know, if you have ever been in media training,

893
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 3: up to and including your favorite politicians, the rule of

894
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 3: thumb is always answer the question you wish you were asked.

895
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 5: It's a man who's also, more or less, as much

896
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 5: as this could be possible, made peace with his fate,

897
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 5: you know, like this, I am in prison. This is

898
00:57:56,280 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 5: my contribution to the movement is not ratting some money

899
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 5: out or not, you know what I mean, like taking

900
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 5: one for the team more or less.

901
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 3: I'm glad you mentioned that because maybe not in the

902
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 3: same spirit. But we're going to end on a couple

903
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 3: of things before we get to this. We have to

904
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 3: note everything that you were taught as a US resident

905
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 3: about the justice system. In theory teaches us and a

906
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 3: person is innocent until proven guilty or wealthy at some

907
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 3: point I walk down the street from that one. We're

908
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 3: going to keep it at some point. Ideology and group

909
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 3: think aside. We have to ask why this individual in

910
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:48,920
Speaker 3: specific was chosen as the evidence aside the murderer of

911
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 3: two FBI special agents, Why did that happenqu bono, Who

912
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 3: does it benefit? I think it's time we reintroduce our buddies,

913
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 3: that counter and Tetelligence.

914
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 4: Program co intel pro for short.

915
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's such a terrible ACRES because they just capitalized

916
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 3: the C and the O encounter and then the intel

917
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 3: and intelligence.

918
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 4: It's barely an acronym. It's kind of like a missmash rely.

919
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 3: I mean, they could have called it under Jens Graham,

920
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:23,439
Speaker 3: but they went with co intel Pro.

921
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, it's you know it. Well, this is what

922
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 4: we've got.

923
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 5: So co Intel pro is, of course the infamous street

924
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 5: name for the counter intelligence program. As you said, Ben

925
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 5: meant to their mission, should they choose to accept it,

926
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 5: and they did, was to expose, disrupt, misdirect, discreditor, otherwise

927
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 5: neutralize inconvenient individuals.

928
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and which includes just people that they put on

929
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:51,959
Speaker 2: a official rabble Rouser index that was floated around every

930
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 2: field office the FBI ran, which is just it just

931
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 2: it's a list. They just got bigger and bigger and

932
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 2: bigger of people who either talked to much or were

933
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 2: a part of some group they didn't like, or were

934
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 2: highly influential in bringing members into those groups.

935
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 3: Or just vegans, just vegans, Pete Seeger, you know.

936
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 5: Think think John Lennon, you know, I mean that level

937
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 5: of outspoken, you know, public figure.

938
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 3: Bob Dylan, notorious communist, you know, shadows of McCarthy, shout

939
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 3: out to the red scare. And also I'm not joking

940
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 3: about vegans. Some people got popped or observed, monitored, came

941
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 3: to attention because of their dietary habits alone.

942
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:41,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, or Martin Luther King, notorious you know, aggressive person

943
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 2: who just wanted he walked around the country and just

944
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 2: talked about you need to shoot people, right, Oh no, no,

945
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 2: he talked about what you need to come together and uh,

946
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 2: you know, be kind and peaceful. But he was on

947
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 2: that list, and it was he got targeted by this,

948
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 2: by this whole system for a long time.

949
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 3: I think it wasn't just his civil rights work. I

950
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 3: think it was the extenuation of that into questioning the

951
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 3: class system of a country that often purports itself to

952
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 3: be a meritocracy. In past episodes as well as interview segments,

953
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 3: we've explored what we call the mission creep of co

954
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 3: Intel Pro and related subsidiary operations.

955
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 2: I think it's because he questioned the Vietnam War.

956
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 3: I think that's a huge part of it, and I

957
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 3: think in doing so, doctor King also questioned the inherent

958
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 3: and visible class system of the United States. Right. Oh yeah,

959
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 3: he said there are more of us than there are

960
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 3: of them.

961
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 2: Oh what's he saying?

962
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 3: Right? And this is where we go to the official

963
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 3: ending of co Intel Pro April of nineteen seventy one.

964
01:01:58,840 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 2: Finally we're past that.

965
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 3: Right. We are on record as well here at stuff

966
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 3: they don't want you to know, saying that the name

967
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 3: may have changed, yet the methods exist. They simply evolved.

968
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 3: You know, like, what's that? What's that? Merk squad? Blackwater?

969
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 3: Wait a damn I wait, academy, academy.

970
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 2: That dude's going around having weird meetings, you guys trying

971
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 2: to convince, trying to trying to convince world leaders that hey,

972
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 2: why don't you just let us handle it because you

973
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 2: know we're not a part of your military or their

974
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 2: military or that military.

975
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 3: Right right? Yeah, well Wagner left a vacuum. Yeah, so

976
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 3: shout out to mister prince.

977
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 6: Uh dude, just think about go and tell pro right now,

978
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 6: Like with those the requests that you could put into

979
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 6: Verizon or Exfinity or any.

980
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 3: Well, think about this too. Why aren't we democratizing the

981
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 3: obsessive surveillance state? What happened to co intel? Amateur? You

982
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:10,800
Speaker 3: know what I mean? I want to hear Cointel open mic,

983
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 3: co Intel, bro co Hotel, bro Co Hotel, am Why

984
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 3: are we bringing this up now? It tells us a

985
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:22,360
Speaker 3: great deal about the context surrounding the FBI's behavior toward

986
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 3: Aim and ultimately toward Leonard. In particular, FBI deployed all

987
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 3: the co Intel practices against AM, one of the first

988
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 3: being the wholesale, the wholesale hoovering of leadership not proud

989
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 3: of it, yeah right, and incarcerating these leaders by hooker

990
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 3: by crook. For grassroots organizations, this is also a death

991
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 3: by a thousand cuts. You see big corporations doing this

992
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:59,720
Speaker 3: as well. Like if you want to fight a DuPont,

993
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 3: if you want to fight you know, like other whistleblowers

994
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:07,200
Speaker 3: we've talked about in the past, a big oil, a

995
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 3: big pharma, then their first move is to tie you

996
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 3: up in court in a way that bleeds you dry.

997
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 3: So then the fact that you're telling the truth doesn't

998
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:23,480
Speaker 3: matter because you don't have the money for the lawyers. Dang.

999
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 5: That's not to mention a group called the Church Committee,

1000
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 5: which had intended to investigate aim as another dissident group

1001
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:37,160
Speaker 5: targeted by the FBI. Witnesses have been investigated by congressional

1002
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 5: staff and called to give testimony, but one day after

1003
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 5: this firefight in question here, the Church Committee canceled those hearings.

1004
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:49,959
Speaker 5: There was something coming, something wicked.

1005
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 3: Something in the wind. Yeah, and the Church Committee did

1006
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 3: a good job on other things, but you could argue

1007
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 3: they did to due diligence on the case of Leonard

1008
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 3: and the case of the American Indian Movement. The political

1009
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:13,200
Speaker 3: cost perhaps got too high for them. As we're recording now,

1010
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 3: Leonard is alive. He is serving two consecutive life sentences.

1011
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:23,440
Speaker 3: As of September of twenty twenty four, he turned eighty

1012
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 3: years old. As of last month, he is eighty years old,

1013
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 3: and he has spent the majority of his life in prison.

1014
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:34,200
Speaker 3: And I suggest that our most important last word for

1015
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 3: this episode is not our own. I think we read

1016
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:42,600
Speaker 3: an excerpt from the elder himself. You can find his

1017
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 3: full statement on his birthday over at places like MR Online,

1018
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:55,280
Speaker 3: Letter M Letter, R Online. We hope you do check

1019
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 3: it out. This is a piece of a longer thing.

1020
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 3: But gentlemen, I suggest we round Robin and Matt. Do

1021
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 3: you want to start us off?

1022
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 2: Of course, so these are Leonard's words, My friends, I

1023
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 2: need you to fight for you. Police are beating children

1024
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 2: in the streets. The Parole Commission still illegally holds many

1025
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 2: of us long past our release dates. The Supreme Court

1026
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 2: has made it impossible for people to challenge wrongful convictions.

1027
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 2: And let's just put this in there. His first habeas

1028
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:31,400
Speaker 2: corpus that he put forward was in nineteen eighty two,

1029
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 2: before I was born, and he's still fighting for this.

1030
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, Indigenous people are still being forced from our land.

1031
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:41,440
Speaker 4: We protect Mother Earth.

1032
01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:45,720
Speaker 5: They have stripped her bear and now want our resources.

1033
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:49,200
Speaker 5: Our people go missing at a staggering rate, and no

1034
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:50,120
Speaker 5: one blinks.

1035
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 3: And please read the full We're going to end with

1036
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:59,080
Speaker 3: this excerpt. The elder continues. We are awaiting the Huru

1037
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:02,680
Speaker 3: verdict to deta German whether free speech exists, a verdict

1038
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 3: that may well come down on my eightieth birthday, and

1039
01:07:06,080 --> 01:07:10,760
Speaker 3: I am still in prison. The Constitution reads, we the people.

1040
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:15,200
Speaker 3: We must tell those in power we are the people.

1041
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 3: Sobering words. On July second, twenty twenty four, Leonard was

1042
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 3: again denied parole despite multiple activist groups seeking clemency. If

1043
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:32,360
Speaker 3: you'd like to learn more about Leonard Peltier's ongoing case,

1044
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:38,040
Speaker 3: check out podcasts like Wondery's Leonard Political Prisoner. Red Nation

1045
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:41,560
Speaker 3: has a great interview with FBI agents who are close

1046
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 3: to the case. If you'd like to learn more about

1047
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:48,760
Speaker 3: other controversial cases of people who may have been swallowed

1048
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:51,920
Speaker 3: by a system, check out our friends at Wrongful Conviction

1049
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 3: and we talked about this a little. If you would

1050
01:07:55,720 --> 01:08:01,000
Speaker 3: like to write to Elder Leonard Peltier directly, his address

1051
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 3: is the following.

1052
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:06,320
Speaker 5: Leonard Peltier p E L T I E R number

1053
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 5: eight nine six three seven DASH one three two USP

1054
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:16,639
Speaker 5: Coleman one, US Penitentiary, pobox one zero three to three Coleman,

1055
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:19,839
Speaker 5: Florida three three five two one.

1056
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 3: He can only receive letters, cards, postcards, no polaroid photos,

1057
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,599
Speaker 3: and he can get money orders for commissary accounts. We

1058
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 3: do have it on good authority that he responds to

1059
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:38,160
Speaker 3: all of his mail. Thank you so much for tuning in, folks. Again,

1060
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:42,800
Speaker 3: we cannot over recommend the fantastic work that has been

1061
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:48,919
Speaker 3: done by many justice organizations, law enforcement professionals, and countless

1062
01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:53,800
Speaker 3: others who, as individuals or as institutions continue to ask

1063
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 3: the hard questions about this case. So let us know

1064
01:08:57,320 --> 01:09:00,400
Speaker 3: your thoughts. We try to be easy to find online.

1065
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 5: You can find us the handle conspiracy Stuff where we

1066
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 5: exist on Facebook.

1067
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:05,599
Speaker 4: We have our Facebook group.

1068
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:07,920
Speaker 5: Here's when it gets crazy, join up chat with your

1069
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 5: fellow conspiracy realists there. You can let's find us that

1070
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:14,200
Speaker 5: handle on x FKA, Twitter as well as YouTube, and

1071
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 5: we have a cavalcade of video delights awaiting you if

1072
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 5: you want to find us on Instagram and TikTok. However,

1073
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:24,640
Speaker 5: we are conspiracy stuff show on those platforms.

1074
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:27,240
Speaker 2: Oh yes, this is a really tough one for me. Guys.

1075
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:32,160
Speaker 2: Nobody looks good in this, in that whole situation. But

1076
01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:35,800
Speaker 2: injustice is injustice, and we want to know what you

1077
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:38,679
Speaker 2: think about it. Please give us a call. Our number

1078
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:43,840
Speaker 2: is one eight three three std WYTK. When you call in,

1079
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:46,160
Speaker 2: give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if

1080
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air.

1081
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:50,320
Speaker 2: If you've got more to say than can fit in

1082
01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 2: that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old

1083
01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:53,920
Speaker 2: fashioned email.

1084
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:58,560
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence

1085
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 3: we receive, and no word worries. If you don't care

1086
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:04,840
Speaker 3: for phones, no worries. If you don't care for sipping

1087
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:07,679
Speaker 3: the social meds, We've got your back with this email.

1088
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:12,360
Speaker 3: Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void writes back.

1089
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:15,400
Speaker 3: As a matter of fact, we're thinking about some of

1090
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:19,400
Speaker 3: you right now. So stay tuned. Join us out here

1091
01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 3: in the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1092
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:44,200
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

1093
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:52,000
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.