Speaker 1: Welcome to Go Ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
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Speaker 1: that there's some one soul mate. It's not like there's one.
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Speaker 1: Are you saying that gossiping is the same as if
Speaker 1: I'm picking lice out of your scalp and eating it. Well,
Speaker 1: you've done both. So what do you think? I want
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Speaker 1: the Golden Globe. After all we've been through, we deserve
Speaker 1: in orgasm. Cis I deserved? Welcome to Go ask Allie.
Speaker 1: I'm Alli went Worth And this season I'm digging into
Speaker 1: everything I can get my hands on, peeling back the
Speaker 1: layers and getting dirty. So last season we talked to
Speaker 1: Dr Harold Koppowitz about the epidemic of anxiety in our teens,
Speaker 1: and today we're digging deeper and getting a little more
Speaker 1: specific because we're talking about what experts are calling climate anxiety.
Speaker 1: So a few years ago, my youngest daughter wanted to
Speaker 1: have elimonade stand and of course we have always said
Speaker 1: that if you have a bake sale or eliminate stand,
Speaker 1: you have to do it for a cause. And my
Speaker 1: daughter Harper said, oh, we have a cause. We have
Speaker 1: a cause. I said, well what is it? And she
Speaker 1: said polar bears? And I said, well, how is that
Speaker 1: a cause? And she showed me a photograph of an
Speaker 1: emaciated and dirty polar bear sort of trouncing through what
Speaker 1: looked like a melted fiord. It was just water and
Speaker 1: she said, Mom, because of global warming, they're dying. And
Speaker 1: it devastated my younger daughter and she said, I've got
Speaker 1: to have elimonade. Stand. I have to raise money, mom,
Speaker 1: we have to save the polar bears. It was a
Speaker 1: crisis and an emergency and she needed to raise money
Speaker 1: right away. So it's real climate xiety. So how do
Speaker 1: we help our kids cope with this deep worry so
Speaker 1: many or feeling over climate change and their future. I mean,
Speaker 1: kids are already affected by climate change when they have
Speaker 1: to run from a wildfire, lose their home in a
Speaker 1: flash flood, or maybe they're just terrified about a global
Speaker 1: extinction of animals. Climate anxiety is becoming a real mental
Speaker 1: health issue, which is why I'm so grateful to talk
Speaker 1: to our guests today we have to first Dr Susan Clayton,
Speaker 1: an environmental psychologist, and then Jeremy Jarecki, a high school
Speaker 1: student and climate activist, for one teenager's point of view.
Speaker 1: First up is our mental health expert. Dr Susan Clayton
Speaker 1: is a professor of psychology at the College of Worcester
Speaker 1: in Ohio. Her research examines the way people think about
Speaker 1: and respond to nature and environmental issues, and she's currently
Speaker 1: writing about the effects of climate change on mental health.
Speaker 1: She's published over a hundred articles in several books. She
Speaker 1: has a PhD in social psychology from Yale University and
Speaker 1: currently she's a visiting hello at the Paris Institute for
Speaker 1: Advanced Studies. Dr Clayton, thank you so much for being here. Well,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for calling attention to this topic, and
Speaker 1: it's it's nice to talk with you. How do you
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking if you were if you and I
Speaker 1: were at a cocktail party right now and I said,
Speaker 1: what is climate anxiety? How would you answer that? I'd
Speaker 1: say it can refer to a host of negative emotions
Speaker 1: that people experience based on their recognition and awareness that
Speaker 1: climate change is occurring. Um so I think anxiety is
Speaker 1: one of the most pronounced emotions, which is why I
Speaker 1: talked about that. But people you know experience tend to
Speaker 1: experience the anxiety alongside other emotions like fear and grief
Speaker 1: and even anger. I would then add, if you were
Speaker 1: still listening to me, that climate anxiety is not a
Speaker 1: mental disorder. It's not, you know, a clinical diagnosis. It's
Speaker 1: a description of a very normal response to a very
Speaker 1: frightening situation. However, for some people it can become overwhelming,
Speaker 1: and certainly it's a source of stress that coroved present
Speaker 1: a threat to mental health. Do you think people are
Speaker 1: talking to their therapists about it? Yes, I know they are.
Speaker 1: So let me start with a with a broad question,
Speaker 1: which is how are we getting our younger generations to
Speaker 1: care about what I call the global crisis? Well, I
Speaker 1: think that they really learned to care when it becomes
Speaker 1: personal for them. In part, so in New York, I
Speaker 1: think you can see the effects of some of the
Speaker 1: major storms that you guys have had, or it can
Speaker 1: be seeing the impacts on an animal, or sometimes just
Speaker 1: hearing a personal story from somebody who's been affected from
Speaker 1: by climate change. So I think it really helps to
Speaker 1: make it concrete rather than abstract. Some of the things
Speaker 1: that you've written about about zoos and aquariums, which really
Speaker 1: I pivoted my way of thinking about them, because I
Speaker 1: had always viewed them as you know, caged in animals
Speaker 1: or contained fish. And you talk about the kind of
Speaker 1: psychology of having real experiences with the animals, you say
Speaker 1: that if they're scary or fun or awe inspiring, there's
Speaker 1: kind of a visceral connection children have, particularly with animals. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: And you can debate the ethics of the zoo, and
Speaker 1: of course many people have, but my interpretation is based
Speaker 1: on what I see. And and first one thing, Uh,
Speaker 1: all of the zoo people I've talked to are so
Speaker 1: committed to the welfare of the animals of both in
Speaker 1: the zoo and in the field and trying to to
Speaker 1: promote conservation efforts. But then secondly, just watching people in
Speaker 1: the zoo, and certainly it's not every single person that
Speaker 1: they have these really profound emotional experiences, and not just children.
Speaker 1: You see you know, really sedate looking middle aged people
Speaker 1: saying oh wow, this animal is awesome. So um So
Speaker 1: I think that people can, at least some of the time,
Speaker 1: have these really significant emotional experiences within while watching the animals. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for parents that are you know, bringing children up. How
Speaker 1: do you take that experience and sort of push it further?
Speaker 1: Do you say, oh, by the way, this beautiful snake
Speaker 1: you've been admiring is actually going extinct, and so you
Speaker 1: know you need to pay atten Like, I'm curious about
Speaker 1: the language you use after they've had that experience. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a great question, because, as you say, a lot
Speaker 1: of people have these experiences at the zoo, and for
Speaker 1: most people, they stop right there. So they need to
Speaker 1: be developed to have a greater meeting for the kids.
Speaker 1: And of course it depends on how all the kids are.
Speaker 1: So you want to say anything too depressing to a
Speaker 1: very young child, But as I get older, I think
Speaker 1: you can certainly tell them about the problems these animals
Speaker 1: are facing and also hopefully combine that with something that
Speaker 1: can be done. So whow, I just love lions. It's
Speaker 1: really sad that they are facing these challenges. Um, I
Speaker 1: wonder do you do you want to donate some money
Speaker 1: to help save the lions or what do you think
Speaker 1: is there something we can do to to help save
Speaker 1: the lions? Um? And again, depending on the age bring
Speaker 1: that into something that they actually can accomplished, maybe personally.
Speaker 1: And do you ever And I did this with my kids,
Speaker 1: and maybe it was the wrong thing to do, but
Speaker 1: I would I used to try to combine things and
Speaker 1: show them how we need this particular animal, let's say,
Speaker 1: because he eats this, which saves this, which gives us oxygen.
Speaker 1: You know, I would try to sort of create a
Speaker 1: chart that shows what an integral part that animal plays
Speaker 1: in the much bigger picture, which is maybe a more
Speaker 1: positive spin. No, that's absolutely great. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people when they think about animals and humans and
Speaker 1: all kinds of parts of nature, they think of them
Speaker 1: very separately, and they have a very poor sense of
Speaker 1: how it all fits together as part of the system.
Speaker 1: So anything you can do, and again when the children
Speaker 1: are very gun, they're probably not going to really grasp this,
Speaker 1: but to explain that, um, their interactions and you know,
Speaker 1: what happens to this animal might effect this other thing,
Speaker 1: and it all comes back around to us, and therefore
Speaker 1: what we do might all come back around to them
Speaker 1: as well. So it's it's teaching about interdependence. Yeah. But
Speaker 1: by the way, um, you know, when I've been researching
Speaker 1: to talk to you about, you know, the sort of
Speaker 1: anxiety that comes with global warming. I realized that, um,
Speaker 1: a lot of adults can benefit from this too, you know.
Speaker 1: I I have come across a lot of adults that
Speaker 1: are in denial or have fear about all this stuff
Speaker 1: and just sort of two now. So I keep talking about, uh,
Speaker 1: the younger generation are our kids, but I'm actually, with
Speaker 1: a wink to you, it's really everybody, absolutely, and adults
Speaker 1: are really bad about recognizing interdependence to them. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of people I'm sure of thinking, why should
Speaker 1: I care about the polar bears? You know, why should
Speaker 1: I care about the modern butterflies? Why should I care
Speaker 1: about bees? And they don't recognize, especially with the bees,
Speaker 1: that's pretty clear, yeah, that we are intimately dependent on them. Right,
Speaker 1: So let's get into the sort of mental health of
Speaker 1: this subject. So how do we help the upcoming generations
Speaker 1: of kids with their fears and their concerns? Because there,
Speaker 1: you know, I have certainly seen my own kids. There's
Speaker 1: that feeling of, um, look what you're leaving us with?
Speaker 1: How dare you look? Look at the garbage build up,
Speaker 1: look at the wildfires, look at the flooding. Look at everything,
Speaker 1: it's chaos and the news everywhere. Why are you doing this?
Speaker 1: And how do we you know, the next generation, how
Speaker 1: do we stop it? Yeah, and I mean that the
Speaker 1: extent of that distress and that emotional responses is greater
Speaker 1: than I even realized. You probably saw the study that
Speaker 1: came out ten thousand young people around the world surveyed
Speaker 1: about how they feel about climate change and how they
Speaker 1: feel about the way society is responding to it, and
Speaker 1: just astonishing percentages saying, uh, humanity has doomed, the government
Speaker 1: has failed us. I feel portrayed. So there's, as you say,
Speaker 1: it's very powerful emotions that are not just fear, but
Speaker 1: also I think a feeling of anger that they've been
Speaker 1: left holding the bag and yeah, yeah, the people who
Speaker 1: are supposed to take care of them have fallen down
Speaker 1: the job. So a lot of parents, I think an
Speaker 1: instinctive reaction is I need to tell them everything is
Speaker 1: going to be okay, especially for younger children, And that's
Speaker 1: not the right approach because children, I don't know if
Speaker 1: you could ever keep the news from them, but you
Speaker 1: can't do it anymore. They hear things, they have their phones,
Speaker 1: they have their computers, they have their friends. They know
Speaker 1: we're facing environmental challenges, so if you tell them you know,
Speaker 1: everything's okay, they will just stop trusting you as a
Speaker 1: source of information. Yeah, so I think they need to
Speaker 1: be encouraged to talk about their feelings because it does
Speaker 1: help to express them, and because if the anxiety is
Speaker 1: maybe even worse if you think other people don't feel
Speaker 1: it as well, so a little affirmation that this is
Speaker 1: a reasonable response can be helpful. I would also think
Speaker 1: that if you placate them and say everything's going to
Speaker 1: be all right, then they're more apt not to do
Speaker 1: anything about it either. That's true too, so that they're
Speaker 1: even though teenagers probably don't realize they're doing, because they're
Speaker 1: still looking to their parents and to the adults in
Speaker 1: their lives for clues about how to respond to this situation.
Speaker 1: So if the adult says, so don't worry about it,
Speaker 1: it'll all work out, or if there's not even any
Speaker 1: problem um, even if the child doesn't quite believe it,
Speaker 1: they are getting this message from a very powerful adult
Speaker 1: figure that you don't have to do anything, and so
Speaker 1: they are they've been entitled to go on with their
Speaker 1: lives and not worry about it, And don't you think
Speaker 1: that there's a reason that they have all sort of
Speaker 1: clung on to Greta as a climate crisis pioneer and
Speaker 1: hero and speaker for them. Well, I think that she
Speaker 1: has just she articulated what nobody was articulating before. And
Speaker 1: I know it's not just young people. I know a
Speaker 1: lot of older people who just share her on which
Speaker 1: she talks about how angry she is because nobody was
Speaker 1: talking about anger before. They were talking about anxiety, and
Speaker 1: they were talking maybe about sadness. But this anger, I
Speaker 1: think is a really important thing to recognize. And of
Speaker 1: course she's had such an impact. So she's also a
Speaker 1: case study of just because you're young doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: you have no power, right, And I'm thinking about how
Speaker 1: to be honest with our kids. You can use her
Speaker 1: as you know, not as a scare tactic. But you know,
Speaker 1: she was afraid, she's upset, and look what she's doing
Speaker 1: sort of a way to get them to be proactive. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, you don't want them to sort of throw
Speaker 1: in the towel and say, oh, we're screwed, or she
Speaker 1: just well, there's nothing I can really do about it.
Speaker 1: So I was just thinking about when you said, um,
Speaker 1: there's a way to have the honesty of it without
Speaker 1: increasing their anxiety, but actually get them a little mobilized. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I teach college students, so five years ago you get
Speaker 1: the comment, well what can one person do? And now
Speaker 1: I just kind of said, well, here's what person and
Speaker 1: look what she was able to do. I think what
Speaker 1: people think about you know, what can an individual do?
Speaker 1: There's two There's often too much focus on what can
Speaker 1: I do directly? What can I can't reduce the amount
Speaker 1: of carbon emissions in the air. You know, I can't
Speaker 1: clean up the ocean. But we forget how powerful social
Speaker 1: influence is as a as a force but also a thing.
Speaker 1: So you can you can have an impact as a model.
Speaker 1: And even if even if you can't affect everybody, if
Speaker 1: you could effect a significant subgroup of people, like maybe
Speaker 1: only other New York teenagers will pay attention, that's still
Speaker 1: a pretty large group. So we really have this tool
Speaker 1: for social influence that we all have that we often underestimate.
Speaker 1: And so when you hear climate crisis anxiety for younger generations,
Speaker 1: what are some of the things that you hear over
Speaker 1: and over again, and how do you address them like
Speaker 1: with your college. Well, to get to answer the second
Speaker 1: part of the question. First, I've began to feel that
Speaker 1: it's kind of a professional obligation to maintain optimism, so
Speaker 1: I do try to give them a positive message while
Speaker 1: also listening to of course they're concerns and um. One
Speaker 1: of the things that's really struck me that I seem
Speaker 1: to hear more and more is questioning whether or not
Speaker 1: they will have children. So they're thinking about this because
Speaker 1: you know, at the age of two, it's on your mind,
Speaker 1: and I strongly suspect that most of them will. But
Speaker 1: the fact that they're even thinking about it, they're thinking
Speaker 1: about their futures in an entirely different ways that I
Speaker 1: thought about my future at their age. There's a sense
Speaker 1: of things things get worse, right, And if you are,
Speaker 1: you finding that they have a fear that I didn't
Speaker 1: have growing up, which is a fear of the environment,
Speaker 1: Like are they feeling that that they're in danger all
Speaker 1: the time, like the flooding and the fires. I think
Speaker 1: certainly some younger children are feeling this way, maybe not
Speaker 1: college age, but I've heard middle schoolers who really have
Speaker 1: a sense that there is a battle between humans and
Speaker 1: nature and humans we're doing bad things to nature, and
Speaker 1: so now nature is uh once revenge in a way,
Speaker 1: it's turning the tables. And how do you address that, Like,
Speaker 1: what do you say? Well, I'm never actually I think
Speaker 1: exactly in that position. But I think it's very important
Speaker 1: to break down this idea that nature and humans are
Speaker 1: on opposite sides of the of the battlefield where or
Speaker 1: that there even is a battlefield. So I would try
Speaker 1: and emphasize that nature is not out to get us,
Speaker 1: that in fact, we are part of nature, and there
Speaker 1: are plenty of good things that people can do for
Speaker 1: the environment. And again depending on the edge of the child,
Speaker 1: let's look at some examples of some of the things
Speaker 1: people are doing in order to protect the environment. So
Speaker 1: we try and break down that in tagonism, right, but
Speaker 1: also the idea that the environment itself will become less hospitable.
Speaker 1: And I think, now I'm going to sound very psychological,
Speaker 1: but of course we have these nice ideas about mother Earth,
Speaker 1: mother Nature. Nature is supposed to nurture us and take
Speaker 1: care of us, and so um, I think people have
Speaker 1: this almost subconscious feeling that nature is not going to
Speaker 1: take care of us. So much anymore. It's it's going
Speaker 1: to be a less pleasant place to be. And does
Speaker 1: that at all give them the impetus to change? I mean,
Speaker 1: does that not provoke a way to try to befriend nature? Well,
Speaker 1: I think for someone does. I think most people probably
Speaker 1: don't need to be more worried. They just need to
Speaker 1: know what to do and to have a better sense
Speaker 1: of how to do it. So some of them need
Speaker 1: to be more worried. Yeah, well, I'm planned on scaring
Speaker 1: the ship out of all of them. And it's time
Speaker 1: for a short break and we're back. Can I ask
Speaker 1: you what are you most scared about? Well, because that
Speaker 1: will that will become my fear. As if you're worried
Speaker 1: about it, then I'm gonna be worried about it. Um
Speaker 1: in a in a very abstract way, I'm just worried
Speaker 1: about the future being harder and less pleasant for live children.
Speaker 1: So if if I guess, if I went to name
Speaker 1: the one concrete thing, it would probably be the way
Speaker 1: population distribution is going to be affected by cloud change.
Speaker 1: Maybe that sounds learning, but you know, to be specific,
Speaker 1: what's going to happen to Florida, What's going to happen
Speaker 1: to New York City. What's going to happen to people
Speaker 1: who are living in the low lying islands. I'm worried
Speaker 1: about increased global conflict as people kind of struggle over uh,
Speaker 1: you know, some people have to leave their homelands and
Speaker 1: move someplace else where the people who are there don't
Speaker 1: want them, Increased struggle over adequate natural resources, increase suceptibility
Speaker 1: to diseases that might be spread by climate change. But
Speaker 1: my more general fear is just that it will be
Speaker 1: a a sad or weaker place. I mean, I'm still optimistic, partly,
Speaker 1: as I confess a while ago. I feel like it's
Speaker 1: an obligation. I think that we will develop new behavioral
Speaker 1: patterns and also new technologies, but gee, I wish we
Speaker 1: were focusing on those with a little bit more urgency
Speaker 1: than we are. I want to talk about the politics
Speaker 1: of this too, because you know, everything in our country
Speaker 1: is so fractured and polarized now. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: Republicans are far less likely than Democrats two enact laws
Speaker 1: and reforms about climate change. But you know, we have
Speaker 1: generations of new voters coming up, and so are you
Speaker 1: seeing an impact on them? My understanding is that there's
Speaker 1: still a very strong political divide between Republicans and Democrats
Speaker 1: in terms of accepting climate change is happening and wanting
Speaker 1: to government to do something about it, but that it's
Speaker 1: less of a divide among younger voters. And I think
Speaker 1: we can see politically there is already somewhat of a
Speaker 1: shift that Republicans are a little bit more willing to
Speaker 1: acknowledge that something needs to be done than probably they
Speaker 1: were five or ten years ago. So you see the
Speaker 1: party sort of coming together when it comes to global warming.
Speaker 1: I will say I see them coming closer together. I
Speaker 1: don't see them coming completely together. I think it's been
Speaker 1: extremely unhealthy that we have this level of political divide
Speaker 1: about climate change in this country, which is not true
Speaker 1: in every other country. I think it's legitimate for there
Speaker 1: to be political differences about how to address the problem.
Speaker 1: I would love to see what political debate about appropriate
Speaker 1: ways of addressing the problem. What doesn't help anybody is
Speaker 1: when one political party says there is no problem. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is a problem. Yeah. So which leads me to
Speaker 1: my next question, which is in terms of anxiety about
Speaker 1: this particular issue for our kids. I am a big
Speaker 1: believer that education is a huge tool that that that
Speaker 1: dissipates some of the anxiety about what's happening in the world.
Speaker 1: And I would love, love, love if middle schools and
Speaker 1: high schools would implement global warming education so it becomes
Speaker 1: kind of a fundamental part of our children's education, and
Speaker 1: therefore they're more up to want to do something about
Speaker 1: it as they get older. I think that would be
Speaker 1: great for one thing, as you say about knowing more
Speaker 1: about it can make it less scary. It's I mean, right,
Speaker 1: face lots of bad things. We're facing COVID right now,
Speaker 1: which is a pretty bad thing, right. And education conserve
Speaker 1: a variety of functions. It's not just necessarily giving people
Speaker 1: the facts, but it can also be teaching them that
Speaker 1: it's part of what it means to be a citizen
Speaker 1: is to think about these problems and to think about
Speaker 1: solutions to those problems, or to be part of the
Speaker 1: solutions for those problems. I remember when I was going
Speaker 1: through elementary school, we would do all this stuff in school.
Speaker 1: We would make posters about recycling and saving the earth,
Speaker 1: and so I wasn't scared at all because I thought, yeah,
Speaker 1: we have this problem. But clearly people are paying attention
Speaker 1: and they're on top of it. I think the disconnect
Speaker 1: for a lot of young people these days, um, as
Speaker 1: we're talking about politics is that they're feeling the dangers
Speaker 1: and they're feeling, oh my gosh, the flooding, the fires,
Speaker 1: the animals, the you know, all of it, and yet
Speaker 1: there are people saying, no, it doesn't exist, it's not true.
Speaker 1: And I think that's also a difficult thing for young
Speaker 1: people to sort of wrap their head around, because they
Speaker 1: know it intuitively, you know, absolutely it can be one
Speaker 1: of the scariest things in the world when you know
Speaker 1: there's a problem and people deny to you that that
Speaker 1: problem exists, and not to be insensitive, but that it
Speaker 1: can be thought. It was similar to the case of
Speaker 1: where our child it might be being abused, and the
Speaker 1: adults around him or her refused to acknowledge there's a problem. Um,
Speaker 1: it really magnifies the problem. So it's not just about
Speaker 1: the physical experiences, about the sense that others are not
Speaker 1: supporting me, others are denying the very reality I'm living in.
Speaker 1: And if you were still talking to me at that
Speaker 1: cocktail party, um, what advice would you give me in
Speaker 1: terms of helping my kids deal with climate anxiety. Well,
Speaker 1: I would say, first, are they just a little bit
Speaker 1: anxious or are they a lot anxious? Because for or
Speaker 1: anyone who's very, very anxious, they need to come to
Speaker 1: terms with their emotional response thwart and I would say,
Speaker 1: in that case, you know, go on a media free diet,
Speaker 1: you know, stop paying attention to the news, do deep breathing,
Speaker 1: go for a walk in the woods, those kinds of things.
Speaker 1: But for most of us who sometimes feel anxious but
Speaker 1: are are pretty functional, I'd say, help your kids become
Speaker 1: informed because a big part of anxiety is uncertainty, and
Speaker 1: we hear all these terms being sort of thrown around.
Speaker 1: Our world is on fire, We're all doomed. I'm pretty
Speaker 1: worried about climate change, but I don't think our world
Speaker 1: is on fire, and I don't think we're all doomed.
Speaker 1: So getting a little bit more accurate information about what
Speaker 1: might happen in my community in the next two years,
Speaker 1: in the next twenty years, What are we really talking about?
Speaker 1: What we talked about climate change? Because even if it
Speaker 1: is bad, just knowing about it gives you a little
Speaker 1: bit of a greater sense of control. Understand what's happening.
Speaker 1: Then I would say make sure they have people to
Speaker 1: talk to, and that can be you, but it's also
Speaker 1: nice for them to have peers, so they might look
Speaker 1: into finding or starting a social group of people who
Speaker 1: are concerned and then find something that they can do,
Speaker 1: find some way to take action. Not every child wants
Speaker 1: to be politically active, so taking action could mean preparing
Speaker 1: your own household, or preparing your community, trying to establish
Speaker 1: community response to again whatever issues that community is faced with.
Speaker 1: But on all four political action as well, right your right,
Speaker 1: your congress people, right right to corporate executives asking them
Speaker 1: to change their practices, and that's a good thing to
Speaker 1: do because it might have an impact. It's also a
Speaker 1: good thing to do because again it's being actively involved
Speaker 1: as an agent can help you feel less overwhelmed and
Speaker 1: out of control. But I do see it's very important
Speaker 1: to give children hope. And hope doesn't have to be,
Speaker 1: in fact shouldn't be in this case, unrealistic optimism, but
Speaker 1: just the sense that better things are possible. And one
Speaker 1: of the things that gives me hope is a sense
Speaker 1: that this this kind of build back better idea that
Speaker 1: we don't have to just avoid some of the worst
Speaker 1: impacts of climate change. But we can actually change the
Speaker 1: way we function as a society in a way that
Speaker 1: will be better than it was before. And that could
Speaker 1: just be things like walking, more driving less, spending more
Speaker 1: time with family and less time and the shopping mall.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love ending on an optimistic note
Speaker 1: like hope. All right, Dr Clayton. Now is when you
Speaker 1: get to ask me a question. So what you got
Speaker 1: for me? And not in French? Oh yeah, well, I
Speaker 1: was going to ask you how you would describe your
Speaker 1: relationship to nature. I found when I was younger, Um,
Speaker 1: I didn't appreciate it very much, and now that I'm older,
Speaker 1: I appreciate it so much. I try to spend as
Speaker 1: much time as I can in nature. I try to
Speaker 1: have my kids spend as much time in nature, which
Speaker 1: makes me even more afraid of it being taken away
Speaker 1: or being gone. And it's funny enough, because a couple
Speaker 1: of summers ago I discovered clamming. So my favorite thing
Speaker 1: about it is not that I bring home dinner, but
Speaker 1: that I'm out on a bay and it's quiet, and
Speaker 1: I'm seeing cranes and ducks and these beautiful weeds, and
Speaker 1: sometimes it's at dusk and I have one of those
Speaker 1: beautiful moments in nature where you can almost hear Box
Speaker 1: brand American Charito play, and you know those moments I
Speaker 1: only have in nature, really, and I think someday when
Speaker 1: my husband and I retire, we want to be fully
Speaker 1: engulfed in nature. So I can't get enough of it.
Speaker 1: That's great. Dr Susan Clayton, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: all of this. I think it's an issue that's not
Speaker 1: talked about enough, and I'm very grateful that you came
Speaker 1: on and talked about it with me today. So thank
Speaker 1: you well, thank you very much for a really interesting conversation.
Speaker 1: When we come back, I talked with high school student
Speaker 1: and climate activist Jeremy Direcky about her feelings a climate
Speaker 1: change and what she's doing about it. Okay, let's get
Speaker 1: back to it. So I really wanted to talk to
Speaker 1: a younger person who might be experiencing some of the
Speaker 1: things that Dr Clayton talked to me about. Jeremy Direcky
Speaker 1: is a climate activist and a leader of our high
Speaker 1: school's environmental club. Hi Ali, Hi Jeremy. I'm very happy
Speaker 1: to have you on because um I screened thousands of teenagers,
Speaker 1: and you came up as the the girl to talk
Speaker 1: to about. I'm calling it climate crisis because there is
Speaker 1: a huge amount of anxiety I think with your generation
Speaker 1: when it comes to what the climate crisis is doing
Speaker 1: to the Earth. And I'm just I'm curious, what is
Speaker 1: What would you say your number one concern about global
Speaker 1: warming is what scares you the most? I think global
Speaker 1: warming scares me so much because it's an issue that
Speaker 1: doesn't have one finite solution, and it's something that we
Speaker 1: as young people and we as a society have to
Speaker 1: continually adapt to in order to confront it. And so
Speaker 1: that's really scary to think about an issue that you
Speaker 1: have to consider and care about um so strongly for
Speaker 1: the next foreseeable future, like for the next decades to come.
Speaker 1: There's really no end to confronting this crisis. Is there
Speaker 1: something that really really really makes you mad that really
Speaker 1: gets you? Is it? Is it the abundance of garbage?
Speaker 1: Is it oil spills? Is it, you know, carbon monoxide? Like,
Speaker 1: what is it that in particular really grinds you? I
Speaker 1: think I guess something that really grinds me is that
Speaker 1: people don't realize how it's going to affect them, and
Speaker 1: so they detached themselves from the issue. Um, And I'd
Speaker 1: love to say that I'm like completely selfless in my
Speaker 1: pursuit of environmentalism, but I am definitely thinking about my
Speaker 1: own future and if I want to have kids one day,
Speaker 1: and that's something that I think me and a lot
Speaker 1: of my friends and peers have to question, like do
Speaker 1: we want to have children to bring into this world
Speaker 1: that is being threatened by climate change? And I wish
Speaker 1: that that was more obvious to people my age, just
Speaker 1: the impending doom of the crisis that we're facing. And
Speaker 1: it's not something that's just going to affect Australia or
Speaker 1: just going to affect the West Coast or you know,
Speaker 1: wherever it's really right now. It's something that's going to
Speaker 1: affect each and every single person you know, and every
Speaker 1: single person who is going to be in your life
Speaker 1: for the you know, next generation to come. And so
Speaker 1: I think that I just want people to like internalize
Speaker 1: that a bit more how it is going to affect
Speaker 1: you personally. So you and your friends really are concerned
Speaker 1: about having children, Yeah, Like that's a real fear for you.
Speaker 1: And so what what is it that what's the narrative
Speaker 1: in your head when you think about it, that you'll
Speaker 1: have children who won't be able to survive. I think
Speaker 1: partly that, like it's scary to think about bringing up
Speaker 1: a new generation that's just going to have to face
Speaker 1: like exponentially more crises than we've had to face, because
Speaker 1: in the coming years there are going to be so
Speaker 1: many more natural disasters and um, you know, oil spills,
Speaker 1: pollution problems, trash build ups, etcetera. And so I think
Speaker 1: that's a part of kind of like the horror that
Speaker 1: we're thinking about. But also overpopulation is one of the
Speaker 1: main causes of climate change. Like if you look at
Speaker 1: this issue over time and just how I mean this
Speaker 1: is going all the way back to the Industrial revolution,
Speaker 1: but how we've this demand for kind of fast food,
Speaker 1: fast fashion, fast innovation has created this culture of disrespecting
Speaker 1: the planet, and a lot of that comes from overpopulation.
Speaker 1: And so I think me and my friends, even though
Speaker 1: that sounds kind of funny, like we are genuinely concerned
Speaker 1: to contribute to the masses of people like creating this demand.
Speaker 1: And so what are some of the things you're doing
Speaker 1: that is sort of your contribution to change? I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, look for me, it's recycling, it's um being
Speaker 1: aware of it, certainly, reading and educating ourselves as much
Speaker 1: as we can. You know, I I have. I'll be
Speaker 1: the first to admit I'm ignorant about a lot of things.
Speaker 1: I'm truly Like where is all the garbage going? By
Speaker 1: the way? Where does all the poop go in New York?
Speaker 1: You know that that kind of stuff. And I think
Speaker 1: for a long time my generation would just be in
Speaker 1: denial of it or just go, well, it's not really
Speaker 1: my problem, so I don't really have to think about it.
Speaker 1: So on the one hand, it's great that your generation
Speaker 1: is standing up and going, hey, this is a huge crisis.
Speaker 1: But also do you start to think of actual things
Speaker 1: that you can do that you and your friends practice
Speaker 1: that can make a difference. Yeah, for sure. I think
Speaker 1: that one of the most underrated ways to involve yourself
Speaker 1: and environmentalism is just like, find your niche and understand
Speaker 1: where your passion aligns with the movement. And I think
Speaker 1: that that's the most important part of it. Well, maybe
Speaker 1: it's looking at like how Black Lives Matter and the
Speaker 1: climate crisis intersect, and how like the crisis will disproportionately
Speaker 1: affect people of color. Maybe it's you know, if your
Speaker 1: LGBT look at queer communities and like their lack of
Speaker 1: accesibility to clean water and stuff like, there's just so
Speaker 1: many ways to get involved in just that small little
Speaker 1: intersection and then that's just that's what's going to change everything.
Speaker 1: And then people just don't go outside. And so something
Speaker 1: that we do in our environment club at school is
Speaker 1: UM we try and come up with like activities or
Speaker 1: fundraisers that will just get kids like hands on involved
Speaker 1: with outside. So last spring, for example, we UM held
Speaker 1: a I think it was called it Potting Plants in
Speaker 1: the Park party, and we got a bunch of soil
Speaker 1: and a bunch of UM at home grow your own
Speaker 1: basil and grow your own time, and we brought it
Speaker 1: to the park with a bunch of paints from the
Speaker 1: art department, and we got like forty kids to come
Speaker 1: to the park and just sit there like no phones
Speaker 1: or anything, playing some music, painting these pots, growing these plants,
Speaker 1: and just talking about like the outside and talking about environmentalism.
Speaker 1: And after that we had way more sign ups for club,
Speaker 1: like way more involved kids excited about what we were doing.
Speaker 1: And I think a part of that is just because
Speaker 1: you need to find what people are going to connect with. UM.
Speaker 1: Tell me about soil versus dirt, future food vulnerability. Okay,
Speaker 1: this is what I spent this entire summer doing. So
Speaker 1: um Soil describes the very rich and carbonous material in
Speaker 1: which plants and ecosystems can grow and thrive in. UM.
Speaker 1: Soil is something that you discover if you went to
Speaker 1: a really bio diverse park and you just grabbed a
Speaker 1: handful of ground and you saw all of the different
Speaker 1: colors and all the different bits and worms in what
Speaker 1: you were holding. That describes a really nice soil. Dirt,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, is kind of like dead soil. UM.
Speaker 1: And when it comes to farming and agriculture purposes, UH,
Speaker 1: you want soil to be able to grow your crops
Speaker 1: because crops fuel on carbonus m aial. So if you're
Speaker 1: going to plant a corn crop, you needed to plant
Speaker 1: into this really rich soil in the ground in order
Speaker 1: to grow into healthy food. UM. But once that soil
Speaker 1: starts to degrade because of you know, weather, because of overuse,
Speaker 1: because of mono crop culture, then it loses all of
Speaker 1: the nutrients and it loses all of the carbon and
Speaker 1: it just turns into this super dead, dry material that
Speaker 1: can't grow anything. UM and so one of the huge
Speaker 1: I think effects of the climate crisis that people don't
Speaker 1: realize is that we really only have about sixty more
Speaker 1: crop cycles until a lot of our soil in the
Speaker 1: US turns into dirt. And when it's reached dirt, you
Speaker 1: can't do anything with it. It just it's like a
Speaker 1: total total dust bol situation. It's this um, you know,
Speaker 1: material that is just going to get lifted up into
Speaker 1: the air, suffocate people, and it's it's not something that
Speaker 1: can be used for productive growth or human life and
Speaker 1: so UM that's really important part of sustainable agriculture to
Speaker 1: focus on, like how not only do how do we
Speaker 1: grow food sustainably, but how do we grow dirt? Um
Speaker 1: and so in the coming years, I think that there
Speaker 1: are gonna be a lot of soil farms, which is
Speaker 1: a really fun idea UM I actually worked on when
Speaker 1: this summer. So Soil is a really interesting aspect. What
Speaker 1: do you do on a soil farm. UM. On a
Speaker 1: soil farm, you create kind of like little micro ecosystems
Speaker 1: for soil to grow without added seeds are added plants,
Speaker 1: so for us, we combined compost, we combined cow manure,
Speaker 1: and we combined some existing soil and then we put
Speaker 1: it under this very tempered um uh kind of like
Speaker 1: bio maatt and over the course of a few months,
Speaker 1: that um enables moisture and different kind of like fungus
Speaker 1: to grow and it reinjects all of these nutrients back
Speaker 1: into the soil. And then after about a year or
Speaker 1: so a bit longer, you start to produce something that
Speaker 1: can be reused again in agriculture, and it creates a
Speaker 1: whole new life cycle for soil. UM And that takes time,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people don't really have the patients
Speaker 1: or the money to grow soil, So it makes sense
Speaker 1: that it's a relatively new technology, but definitely it is interesting.
Speaker 1: And um when you when you say sixty more crop seasons,
Speaker 1: mm hmm is that sixty years? Yeah, sixty years. That's
Speaker 1: not very much. No, not at all. Um. I I
Speaker 1: heard that in the documentary Kiss the Ground, which all plug.
Speaker 1: It's very good documentary. Is it good? Okay? Good, that's
Speaker 1: a it's a good plug. Then. Um, And you're a
Speaker 1: New York City girl, so what is it that connects
Speaker 1: you to nature and what connects you to this issue.
Speaker 1: I think that my love for nature comes from really
Speaker 1: my family and my brother's immersing me in the outdoors
Speaker 1: since I was really little. Um, when I was younger,
Speaker 1: I used to go to a canoe tripping camp in Canada.
Speaker 1: That is kind of a tradition that's been passed down
Speaker 1: in my family. And as I started to understand what
Speaker 1: the environmental crisis was, I realized that not only was
Speaker 1: human life at stake, but all that I had come
Speaker 1: to love, you know, could be gone in the matter
Speaker 1: of decades. So is that how you became aware of
Speaker 1: the climate crisis situation? You kind of you heard statistics
Speaker 1: or you heard things about the natural surroundings around you
Speaker 1: that you love so much that could go away. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: it started with that. There was also a specific moment
Speaker 1: when my brothers and I were on our Thanksgiving break
Speaker 1: and we were actually going to um uh in an
Speaker 1: out burger to get Hamburgers, and I was having a
Speaker 1: fight with them in the car because I was talking
Speaker 1: about um some like I s p C a or
Speaker 1: animal related issue, and they basically like stood up to
Speaker 1: me and they were like, well, you're about to go
Speaker 1: get a Hamburger, and I didn't understand the significance of that.
Speaker 1: So then they explained to me, um, what the beef
Speaker 1: industry looks like in America and kind of what role
Speaker 1: it plays in the climate crisis as a whole. And
Speaker 1: from that moment, I didn't eat beef. And then a
Speaker 1: few months later I became a vegetarian. A few months
Speaker 1: later after that, I became a vegan and I've been
Speaker 1: plant based ever since. How I'll agree you At that time,
Speaker 1: I was eleven, But that was a huge turning point
Speaker 1: for me, just because I think they really, they really
Speaker 1: embarrassed me, and um kind of made me realize that
Speaker 1: I was a very huge hypocrite. Well it's not so
Speaker 1: much embarrassed. They woke you up a little bit, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I also remember on that exact car ride then pointing
Speaker 1: out the smog over the l A City escape to me.
Speaker 1: And I think that just a combination of those things
Speaker 1: like really like opened my eyes to what the crisis
Speaker 1: looks like. I had no idea that it was even
Speaker 1: a part of my life or a part of my
Speaker 1: future at that moment. And so, when you think about
Speaker 1: the climate crisis, what are you most anxious about I mean, what,
Speaker 1: what did you literally lost sleep over? Is it the overpopulation? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think it's I mean that's a hard question. I
Speaker 1: guess I'm just scared of how big it is. Um.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's hard to be a young person
Speaker 1: with this passion just because nobody really knows what they're doing,
Speaker 1: and it's hard to like stay motivated when we're all
Speaker 1: just searching for the answers. And so I think what
Speaker 1: scares me is that no matter how many you know,
Speaker 1: paper straws get used, no matter how many beyond meat
Speaker 1: packages replace a beef package, Like, there's just gonna be
Speaker 1: this huge crisis at the end of the day that
Speaker 1: we don't really know how to deal with. And we've
Speaker 1: tried all of these innovations, but they're just not big enough.
Speaker 1: So what do you do to help alleviate your anxiety
Speaker 1: when it comes to global warming? I definitely like to
Speaker 1: stay busy when it comes to environmental work. So UM
Speaker 1: with my school and with a lot of other really
Speaker 1: cool kids. UM, we are the heads of our school's
Speaker 1: environment club, and we have kind of assembled this team
Speaker 1: of environmental go getters who are working with some faculty
Speaker 1: to approach the administration about decarbonizing our endowment, UM, having
Speaker 1: a real waste audit of the school's waste UM and
Speaker 1: doing an analysis of the different types of energy that
Speaker 1: Dalton uses in our energy plan. So those are really big,
Speaker 1: three really big things that we're tackling. Outside of that, UM,
Speaker 1: I worked on this organization with some of my friends
Speaker 1: called High Schoolers for Carbon Dividends UM. We work to
Speaker 1: create the largest national coalition of high school students. And
Speaker 1: I attend marches and I attend rallies, and I kind
Speaker 1: of do the most that I can do. I think,
Speaker 1: to me, I don't believe that every person has to
Speaker 1: be vegan, or every person has to dedicate their extracurriculars
Speaker 1: or they're out of school life to making this sort
Speaker 1: of change. But I think it gives me a peace
Speaker 1: of mind to kind of lay some of the groundwork
Speaker 1: for my friends to help out in any way that
Speaker 1: they can. UM. And that's just a way that I
Speaker 1: alleviate some of my anxiety UM and make it feel
Speaker 1: like I'm doing something good for myself and like I'm
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, helping myself out twenty years from now. Damn,
Speaker 1: We're good girl. UM. I just really wanted to be
Speaker 1: emphasized that, like, you don't have to dedicate all of
Speaker 1: your time to this, because I think that that's what
Speaker 1: scares people off, especially young people. But it's it's so
Speaker 1: awesome getting to go to school every day and seeing
Speaker 1: like a new kid excited about this sort of thing,
Speaker 1: and to have like my friend Charlotte come in and
Speaker 1: be super jazzed about a waste audit idea, or see
Speaker 1: my friend Declin talk about decarbonizing Dalton's endowment. Like that's
Speaker 1: just a really wonderful community to be a part of
Speaker 1: because it's filled with immense hope and just like excitement
Speaker 1: to get stuff done. It so cool. I'm so I
Speaker 1: love to hear. I love to hear the optimism too,
Speaker 1: because you know, we talked about the crisis all the time.
Speaker 1: Here's my last question to you and my um. I
Speaker 1: briefly touched on it before, but do you know what
Speaker 1: happens to all the poop in New York City? I
Speaker 1: have no clue. Okay, well, I mean I think we
Speaker 1: need to find out. I think we definitely do so.
Speaker 1: On my podcast this season, I'm allowing my guests to
Speaker 1: ask me a question so they get to go ask Ali,
Speaker 1: and it can be about anything. Um So, Jeremy direky. Shoot,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm so just asked. Um. Well, I
Speaker 1: know Ali that you're like super ancient, but I am
Speaker 1: curious what the first concert you went to was. I've
Speaker 1: always wondered that. Oh my god, what a great question. Um.
Speaker 1: It was a band called Bad Company. Ever heard of them?
Speaker 1: I am It's called Bad Company? Is my first concert? Um?
Speaker 1: They They had lyrics like bad Company to the day
Speaker 1: your mother would like this band. Um. I went with
Speaker 1: a guy named Eric, and I remember it was the
Speaker 1: first time I smelled marijuana and I didn't understand what
Speaker 1: the smell was. And it was very loud. It's talk
Speaker 1: going to be the last concert I go to, Jeremy.
Speaker 1: Great question. All right, honey, thank you so much. You
Speaker 1: were great. Thank you. These are two amazing humans that
Speaker 1: are not only helping with climate anxiety, but also actually
Speaker 1: trying to do things to fix it and make us
Speaker 1: all aware of how much we need to pull together
Speaker 1: our resources and try to put an end to global warming.
Speaker 1: I've known Jeremy directly for years, and boy, I hope
Speaker 1: she runch or presidents someday, or at least the head
Speaker 1: of the e p A, and I love that Jeremy
Speaker 1: is out there trying to get other teenagers involved. And
Speaker 1: I think that there's a responsibility for all of us
Speaker 1: to do our small amount of help in terms of
Speaker 1: global warming and even in terms of helping our younger
Speaker 1: generations deal with the anxiety of it. I just think
Speaker 1: if everybody does their part, however small, that is, if
Speaker 1: it's recycling or even being educated and aware that way,
Speaker 1: when you look at the news or you read the
Speaker 1: papers and you see, oh, there's mass floodings. Oh, these
Speaker 1: people had to migrate because of this, um oh the
Speaker 1: fires in the West. I mean, it's going at a
Speaker 1: rapid pace. So every part we can do, and even
Speaker 1: if that's educating ourselves to help our younger generations be
Speaker 1: equipped and build a better planet, that's taking part. It's
Speaker 1: a global effort. So I hope that this podcasts has
Speaker 1: mobilized my listeners to act locally and think globally. Thank
Speaker 1: you for listening to Go Ask Alli. Be sure to subscribe,
Speaker 1: rate and review the podcast, and follow me on social
Speaker 1: media on Twitter at Ali You Wentworth, and on Instagram
Speaker 1: at the Real Ali Wentworth and look if you like
Speaker 1: to ask me a question, or suggest a guest or
Speaker 1: a topic to dig into. I'd love to hear from you,
Speaker 1: and there's a bunch of ways to do it. You
Speaker 1: can call or text me at three to three three
Speaker 1: six four six three five six, or you can email
Speaker 1: a voice memo right from your phone to Go ask
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Speaker 1: Alli is a production of Shonda land Audio and partnership
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