Speaker 1: Before we begin, please be aware this episode contains discussions
Speaker 1: around infant deaths and other difficult topics. Please take care
Speaker 1: while listening.
Speaker 2: What did I say? A very traumatized woman, young woman,
Speaker 2: somebody destroyed. My hearts went out to her. We sat
Speaker 2: in from day one and it was an eye outen man.
Speaker 2: There was people there that thought she was guilty, and
Speaker 2: the people there that believed or she was, you know,
Speaker 2: felt that she was innocent and wanted to seek themselves.
Speaker 1: This is a woman we are calling Beth. She has
Speaker 1: a special connection to Lucy let Be. You see, Beth
Speaker 1: spent her career in the neonatal unit at Chester, retiring
Speaker 1: only a couple of years before Lucy was arrested, seeing.
Speaker 2: A nurse destroyed and sitting in the dark there being
Speaker 2: accused when you can see yourself that there's a lot
Speaker 2: more to this than he's coming out here.
Speaker 1: Beth attended every day of Lucy Letby's second trial, the
Speaker 1: retrial for Baby K.
Speaker 2: I really really am so angry that these parents have
Speaker 2: been put through so much. I lost a baby, and
Speaker 2: I know what it's like if I'd have had to
Speaker 2: go through what they went through and then have a
Speaker 2: policeman knock on my door and say we think your
Speaker 2: baby was murdered.
Speaker 1: In the cacophony of voices swirling around the story of
Speaker 1: Lucy Letbee, in every screaming headline, every panel of experts,
Speaker 1: in all the police conferences, there was one group of
Speaker 1: people who never seemed to rise above the fray. A
Speaker 1: group of people who would have known more than anyone
Speaker 1: what Lucy's life was like and would have possibly been
Speaker 1: able to tell a different story or fill in some blanks.
Speaker 1: Lucy's fellow nurses.
Speaker 2: They've been silenced, and they live in clear and that
Speaker 2: next time it might be done, they'll be investigator off.
Speaker 3: I'll be found guilty.
Speaker 2: Because Lucy isn't the first, she won't be the last.
Speaker 1: I'm Amanda Knox and from Vespucci and iHeart Podcasts. This
Speaker 1: is doubt the case of Lucy Leppie Chapter eight. The nurses.
Speaker 2: I've never met a nurse that's come in to work
Speaker 2: to harm the patient. I've met a nurse and made
Speaker 2: a mistake and absolutely been devastated. I mean absolutely devastated.
Speaker 1: Beth took care of the sickest babies for around forty years.
Speaker 2: The job in the hospital is very, very stressful. It
Speaker 2: changes throughout the day. You may be quiet at one
Speaker 2: point and then suddenly an emergency happens and you know,
Speaker 2: it's all hands to the deck, you know, people rushing
Speaker 2: around everywhere. Patience care is paramount. Good patient care is paramount.
Speaker 2: And I don't know a nurse, never met a nurse
Speaker 2: that hasn't wanted to give her best to those patients.
Speaker 2: But they still try and put that smile on the face.
Speaker 2: And you know, I don't see anyone going into the
Speaker 2: profession of nursing unless they really want to do that job.
Speaker 2: It's not a job that you would do to earn
Speaker 2: a wage. It's a job you do because you enjoy
Speaker 2: what you're doing.
Speaker 1: Those that knew Lucy say that she loved being a nurse,
Speaker 1: that she dreamed of being one since she was a kid,
Speaker 1: and that she was a good one too, which of
Speaker 1: course meant that the arrests and the two trials that
Speaker 1: ended in guilty convictions were even harder to understand.
Speaker 2: When Lucy was first arrested, I was in the hospital
Speaker 2: that day visiting, and the TV cameras were everywhere, and
Speaker 2: nobody was saying what's going on? So to wait until
Speaker 2: the news when the news came on, I found that
Speaker 2: a nurse and nernaking nurse had been arrested the allegations
Speaker 2: of harmon babies. Now something just didn't sit right with me.
Speaker 2: It sat very, very uncomfortably.
Speaker 1: Beth took that feeling and did something with it.
Speaker 2: I'm reading everything I can get of the journalist's reports
Speaker 2: because I don't want to miss anything. It became obvious
Speaker 2: to me that it was multifaceted problems. There were not
Speaker 2: just one problem. There were lots of problems surrounding it
Speaker 2: which were causing these increase in depth, and you have
Speaker 2: to get to the bottom of why this is happening
Speaker 2: so that you can put it right, learn from it,
Speaker 2: and put it right.
Speaker 1: It was because of this unease that Beth and a
Speaker 1: fellow nurse friend felt compelled to sit through Lucy's retrial
Speaker 1: with Manchester.
Speaker 2: So it was fairly close and we decided that we
Speaker 2: wanted to go and all of this case. So we
Speaker 2: went and there's quite a lot of nurses there and
Speaker 2: we sat in from day one and it was an
Speaker 2: i over.
Speaker 1: Before the trial Lucy was guilty. The second trial offered
Speaker 1: an opportunity to hear the evidence for herself. Maybe she'd
Speaker 1: hear something that made sense of the verdicts.
Speaker 2: But it wasn't clear. There was no factual evidence there
Speaker 2: at all. Where is the evidence that puts her at
Speaker 2: faults here that she's harmed this baby. There's lots of
Speaker 2: things happened before she even came on duty that you
Speaker 2: can't put that blame on her. So those of us
Speaker 2: that were with interest, watching and listening to what was
Speaker 2: happening could see that there was a lot of red
Speaker 2: flags appearing. To me, the evidence was there to prove
Speaker 2: her innocence. I could see it. Most of us with
Speaker 2: the medical knowledge could see it.
Speaker 4: I just think it's just absolute rubbish. People who are
Speaker 4: going to nursing going to nursing because they want to
Speaker 4: help people. They want to they're caring individuals. I mean,
Speaker 4: it's always caring people who get locked up in prison.
Speaker 3: It's really really scary. It's very scary.
Speaker 4: It's a bit like the old sixteenth century, which hunts,
Speaker 4: isn't it. I think people get ideas in their heads,
Speaker 4: and once you've got an idea in your head, you
Speaker 4: can't get rid of it.
Speaker 1: Like Beth Michelle Warden spent her career in the neo
Speaker 1: natal field.
Speaker 4: I was the advance near natal nurse practitioner at the
Speaker 4: Countess of Chester Hospital.
Speaker 1: In the years leading up to Lucy's arrest. Michelle had
Speaker 1: a front row seat to the changes in funding and
Speaker 1: ultimately the care at the Counters of Chester.
Speaker 4: I went to work on the unit in nineteen eighty
Speaker 4: eight and wear and tear was beginning to show even
Speaker 4: back then. By the time you get to the time
Speaker 4: of the indictment in twenty fifteen, this is a very
Speaker 4: tired unit with problems with the plumbing, problems with the
Speaker 4: ceiling tiles, problems with the sinks and the taps sometimes
Speaker 4: not working properly, not being able to get hot water.
Speaker 4: And it wasn't just true in the near naked unit,
Speaker 4: it was throughout the women and Children's hospital and labor
Speaker 4: ward had as many problems as did the guyiny wards
Speaker 4: and the pediatric wards. But it was a very old,
Speaker 4: tired building.
Speaker 1: Along with the physical problems, Michelle says that a lack
Speaker 1: of funding affected the working environment at the Countess, including
Speaker 1: the number of experienced nurses on staff. In twenty eleven,
Speaker 1: Michelle and five other senior nurses were laid off.
Speaker 4: Nurses were dispensed with under the terminology of restructuring, but
Speaker 4: in actual fact it was cost cutting. And then they
Speaker 4: employed eight nursery nurses.
Speaker 1: A nursery nurse simply means that they solely worked in
Speaker 1: the nursery and only had childcare qualifications. They would have
Speaker 1: needed to be supervised to perform any clinical tasks, usually
Speaker 1: by a registered nurse.
Speaker 4: Now, we'd always had nursery nurses on the unit, and
Speaker 4: they have a valid role to play, but they should
Speaker 4: be there to enhance the role of a registered nurse,
Speaker 4: not to replace the registered nurse. So by the time
Speaker 4: you got to the indictment period, I think it was
Speaker 4: the perfect storm. You had very few really senior nurses.
Speaker 4: You had very few registered nurses on duty. You had
Speaker 4: nursery nurses who were being asked to care for babies
Speaker 4: beyond their level of competency. You had consultants who were
Speaker 4: never there. If you take Lucy, Lucy was employed in
Speaker 4: Chester in twenty twelve, there was two newly qualified, straight
Speaker 4: out of university registered nurses employed, Lucy being one of them.
Speaker 4: By the time we get to the indictment period in
Speaker 4: twenty fifteen, which is only three years, they're saying she's
Speaker 4: really senior. You cannot compare three years experience with somebody
Speaker 4: like me who had thirty years experiences. I cannot think
Speaker 4: of any profession where you would be deemed to be
Speaker 4: senior after three years postgrad.
Speaker 1: And there was evidence that those inexperienced nurses were buckling
Speaker 1: under the pressure.
Speaker 4: Well, we know from emails that have now been released
Speaker 4: that by the time you got to two thousand and
Speaker 4: fifteen December, one of the consultants was right into management
Speaker 4: saying the.
Speaker 3: Staffer in tears.
Speaker 4: The workload is overwhelming. We know in December twenty fifteen
Speaker 4: this unit was only funded for sixteen cops, so it
Speaker 4: had three intensive care, four high dependency and the rest
Speaker 4: were special care cots.
Speaker 3: But there was at least.
Speaker 4: Two occasions in December twenty fifteen where they had twenty
Speaker 4: and twenty one babies, so they were running out of incubators,
Speaker 4: they were running out of basic equipment, they were taking
Speaker 4: more babies than they really had cops four and she
Speaker 4: actually writes in the email, this is going to result
Speaker 4: in children's lives or the physical and mental wellbeing of
Speaker 4: the staff.
Speaker 1: These problems were also noted by the Royal College of
Speaker 1: Pediatrics and Child Health. A twenty sixteen report found that
Speaker 1: staffing levels were inadequate, and perhaps most revealing, they noted
Speaker 1: that it wasn't just the neonatal ward that had an
Speaker 1: increased mortality rate. In twenty fifteen, the maternity ward where
Speaker 1: Lucy let Be did not work also had elevated rates
Speaker 1: of stillbirths. That makes me wonder if the problem was
Speaker 1: bigger than just one bad nurse. Was this a problem
Speaker 1: across the entire maternity unit well? According to the Royal
Speaker 1: College of Pediatrics, the cause of increased deaths in the
Speaker 1: neonatal ward were systemic issues like crumbling infrastructure and staffing shortages.
Speaker 1: To date, the Countess of Chester Hospital has been very
Speaker 1: guarded about this data.
Speaker 2: And the austerity is hit in all public services and
Speaker 2: that had a major impact on the NHS as the whole,
Speaker 2: so Chester was no different.
Speaker 1: Beth was working through this belt tightening time as well.
Speaker 1: She also witnessed the crumbling infrastructure and the lack of
Speaker 1: updated equipment and the staffing shortages.
Speaker 2: You've got to work within your financial constraints, which means
Speaker 2: that some things have to go, so training is cut
Speaker 2: to the quick. Staff we tend to work on low
Speaker 2: levels of staff and then the stress levels start rising.
Speaker 2: Staff course sick, so they become more dependent on banking
Speaker 2: agency to fill those shifts. You don't have that same continuity,
Speaker 2: so over time standard start for it's gradual, but they
Speaker 2: fall and you'll find staff going home at the end
Speaker 2: of the day in tears, absolutely in tears because they've
Speaker 2: not been able to, in their eyes, deliver the standard
Speaker 2: of care that they've been trained and want to give.
Speaker 1: This question around staffing was something that statistician professor Jane
Speaker 1: Hutton looked at when she had originally been approached by
Speaker 1: the police to help them create that all important chart. However,
Speaker 1: Jane was quickly dropped from the investigation when she disagreed
Speaker 1: with the police's approach. She has since gone on to
Speaker 1: be one of the many voices questioning the validity of
Speaker 1: the statistical EVA evidence against Lucy.
Speaker 5: Lucy Lefty was one of the most experienced nurses because
Speaker 5: the management had got rid of the advanced nurse practitioners
Speaker 5: whom you're supposed to have if you try to run
Speaker 5: an unit like this, and they went there, so you'd
Speaker 5: be getting the most experienced person and obviously the sicker
Speaker 5: patients tend to be given if you were a choice
Speaker 5: to the most experienced doctors and nurses. The other thing
Speaker 5: the chant doesn't show is who wasn't there, which is
Speaker 5: important because of course you might like to know about
Speaker 5: the doctors as well as the nurses. But the doctors
Speaker 5: were only doing two war rounds a week. They should
Speaker 5: have been doing two war rounds a day. That information
Speaker 5: clearly is very important. Were the babies dying because the
Speaker 5: consultants weren't getting round to caring for them?
Speaker 1: For Jane, the issues brought up in the report by
Speaker 1: the Royal College of Pediatrics and Child Health pointed to
Speaker 1: a much bigger problem at Chester Hospital.
Speaker 5: When the Royal College which of Pediatrics and Child Health
Speaker 5: was asked in to carry out a review, they found
Speaker 5: twenty three major failings with the unit. They were also
Speaker 5: told by the doctors of the doctors said there were
Speaker 5: suspicious of let be and they said there is no
Speaker 5: evidence to support that suspicion. But that's where you got
Speaker 5: the comment on the lack of consultant ward rounds and
Speaker 5: the lack of communications a lot of other problems. That
Speaker 5: report recommended a more detailed investigation, which Jane Horden did.
Speaker 5: Sir neonatal consultant, and in the seventeen cases she looked at,
Speaker 5: I don't know how those cases were selected, she found
Speaker 5: major or substantial clinical that is, medical failings in fourteen
Speaker 5: out of the seventeen. So to my mind, that gives
Speaker 5: you a set of possible explanations for the events that
Speaker 5: you should.
Speaker 1: Consider within this swirl of problems and stress. Humans make mistakes,
Speaker 1: and that includes nurses. But when you have an institution
Speaker 1: that is fighting tooth and nail for every penny they
Speaker 1: can get, people start to protect themselves, their jobs and
Speaker 1: their positions, leading to a culture of fear and the
Speaker 1: lack of willingness to be open about mistakes.
Speaker 5: If we're honest, how many of us like submitting we've
Speaker 5: got something wrong. How many of us consultants management would
Speaker 5: much rather find somebody to blame. You know, let's be honest.
Speaker 5: It's this is not a matter of aren't they terrible
Speaker 5: and we're perfect? None of us is perfect.
Speaker 2: And for Beth, if you've got a really sick patient
Speaker 2: and that patient dies, they're terrified that somebody's going to
Speaker 2: come along a point of finger and try and blame
Speaker 2: you for somebody's death. You know, you've see nurses the
Speaker 2: dealing with emergency situations and they're calm and they're cool.
Speaker 2: That is because they're trained to stand back, let the emotion,
Speaker 2: let let motion get in the way, and you deal
Speaker 2: with that case in front of me, that emergency in
Speaker 2: front of you. You just get on and you calmly
Speaker 2: do the work. Then afterwards you can go and cry.
Speaker 2: And it is a difficult job. It's a very rewarding job,
Speaker 2: but it does come with its its traumas as well.
Speaker 2: Nobody wants to lose a patient and sometimes, you know,
Speaker 2: many times the nurses will sit there after an emergency
Speaker 2: situation where they've lost a patient and question themselves and say,
Speaker 2: is there something I missed? Did I miss anything? Could
Speaker 2: I have done something differently? Because nobody wants to lose
Speaker 2: a patient, it's a massive impact on care because they
Speaker 2: will be too frightened, they're too fright to speak out.
Speaker 1: That is exactly what drove Jenny Harris away from her
Speaker 1: work as a neonatal nurse with the NHS after eighteen years.
Speaker 3: It's like a roller coaster of emotions on the neonatal unit.
Speaker 3: It really is. I think you could experience every emotion
Speaker 3: in one shift. To be honest, like we're humans at
Speaker 3: the end of the day out where we've got hearts.
Speaker 3: That's why we want to be neonatal nurses, because we
Speaker 3: care for these babies and these families.
Speaker 1: That drive that love for the job. Jenny says that
Speaker 1: it can only take you so far. Years of funding cuts,
Speaker 1: staff shortages, and a culture of blame can make even
Speaker 1: the most loving and professional nurse rethink her role.
Speaker 3: The management support is not really there. You're not appreciated,
Speaker 3: you're not thanked, You're just blamed for things. The bullying
Speaker 3: is horrendous. I had to see the psychology spons a
Speaker 3: week just to get through the week because of bullying
Speaker 3: that was happening. It can be really toxic. It's just
Speaker 3: not worth it.
Speaker 1: But it was the Lucy let Be case that really
Speaker 1: pushed Jenny to walk away from the NHS.
Speaker 3: Because I was just like, this could have I know
Speaker 3: people say it all the time, but this could have
Speaker 3: easily have been me. Because I'm an unatle nurse. I
Speaker 3: look after babies that have died. Babies have died on
Speaker 3: my shift, babies have died whilst I've been caring for them.
Speaker 1: Jenny felt especially knocked off guard when she heard about
Speaker 1: some of the evidence used to convict Lucy. One of
Speaker 1: those were the handover notes found under Lucy's bed. Handover
Speaker 1: notes are written by nurses at the end of their shift,
Speaker 1: recording what Kara baby has received and flagging anything the
Speaker 1: next nurse needs to know.
Speaker 3: I've taken handover notes home. I've done it for many reasons,
Speaker 3: especially when I was in the first few years of
Speaker 3: being an innatalness and I would take them on by accident.
Speaker 3: I see a lot of similarities with me and Lucy
Speaker 3: in the way from what I've heard, Like I don't
Speaker 3: know Lucy, but like I used to keep a lot
Speaker 3: of the handover notes, and even like other bits and pieces.
Speaker 1: She says that taking those papers home was never malicious.
Speaker 1: Neither was looking up patient families on Facebook, just like
Speaker 1: Lucy did, because you want to.
Speaker 3: See that the family are okay. Because you're not allowed
Speaker 3: to you're like to contact them, You're not like to
Speaker 3: have their phone number. Imagine caring for a baby for
Speaker 3: a few weeks. You've really got to know the parents well,
Speaker 3: You've built up a relationship with them. The baby dies.
Speaker 3: Nurses need closure too. We need closure as much as well,
Speaker 3: not as much as the parents do. But do you
Speaker 3: know what I mean? We need closure too, and if
Speaker 3: that's her way of getting closure, then I don't understand
Speaker 3: what the.
Speaker 1: Problem is and those suspicious post it notes. Jenny was
Speaker 1: also encouraged by her therapist to write things down as
Speaker 1: a way of coping with the stress of the job.
Speaker 3: For example, I had a core belief that I was
Speaker 3: worthless and I was a bad person. There was no
Speaker 3: evidence that I was a bad person. That's what I've
Speaker 3: learned through my therapist. But I was to write that down,
Speaker 3: and I would write down I'm worthless, I'm a bad person,
Speaker 3: but I'm not a bad person. But just because I
Speaker 3: wrote it down doesn't mean it's true. But as soon
Speaker 3: as I heard that she'd written these post it notes,
Speaker 3: I was like, well, I've done that because my therapist
Speaker 3: told me to do it.
Speaker 1: Jenny says it was the death of one particular baby
Speaker 1: that scared her the most.
Speaker 3: And I was distraught, like it was natural causes, It
Speaker 3: wasn't anything like that. But straight away my management was like, well,
Speaker 3: why didn't you do this? Why didn't do you know
Speaker 3: that you should have done this? You should have done that.
Speaker 3: No support that I've just gone through this mass if
Speaker 3: ordeal that was very traumatic. It was just why didn't
Speaker 3: you do that? You should have done that, you should
Speaker 3: done this. And I sat then and I thought if
Speaker 3: there was anything about that. Luckily we did a post
Speaker 3: mortem and everything was natural causes, but imagine if it
Speaker 3: hadn't been and there'd been something else that they thought
Speaker 3: was suspicious. It's just it's not even worth thinking about.
Speaker 3: That was like literally like my final I was like,
Speaker 3: that's it. I can't do this anymore. It's just too
Speaker 3: much now.
Speaker 1: Beth, the former neon edtal nurse who retired from the Countess,
Speaker 1: knows that Jenny isn't the only nurse who felt that way.
Speaker 1: She sees that the Lucy Letbe case created shock waves
Speaker 1: through the entire UK healthcare system.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 2: The tremors we feel today revealed deeper fractures that have
Speaker 2: been building for years. We are seeing a profession in fear. Nurses,
Speaker 2: doctors and healthcare workers or who've lost their voice, lost
Speaker 2: their confidence in speaking in truth to power, and lost
Speaker 2: faith in the very systems designed to protect both patients
Speaker 2: and practitioners.
Speaker 1: And the tremors they go even further than those who
Speaker 1: work within the system, Jenny says. Parents they felt it too.
Speaker 3: It's like they stopped trusting us a lot of them.
Speaker 3: We've even had parents and family members saying to us like, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, we have to be careful now because of Lucy.
Speaker 3: Let me Like they've even used her name to us,
Speaker 3: and like things that we used to do without the
Speaker 3: parents around now we've had complaints. You can't do that
Speaker 3: to my baby without me there. I need to be
Speaker 3: watching what you're doing and what you're giving. It makes
Speaker 3: you job harder and it makes you feel horrible because
Speaker 3: it's like, how can people not trust me with their babies?
Speaker 3: And actually some of the is putting their babies actually
Speaker 3: at more risk. Like I had a mum that refused
Speaker 3: to let any nurse near her baby. She would only
Speaker 3: let the doctors. And I'm not saying the doctors can't
Speaker 3: do anything, but the things that this baby needed are
Speaker 3: things that the nurses do day in day out, and
Speaker 3: the doctors don't do very often because the nurses do it.
Speaker 3: So then all of a sudden she's like, I want
Speaker 3: the doctor to do it, and I try to explain.
Speaker 3: I was like, this is something I do every day.
Speaker 3: The doctor will do it. Maybe once every few months,
Speaker 3: but it didn't matter. She didn't want a nurse near
Speaker 3: her baby.
Speaker 1: Nursing shortages are not unique to the UK. Low pay,
Speaker 1: long hours, stressful shifts. It's a common refrain around the world.
Speaker 1: But you add the idea of a serial killer nurse
Speaker 1: into the MiGs and for some, especially those that work
Speaker 1: at the Countess Tall is personal.
Speaker 4: One of them said to me, Michelle, if Lucy's innocent,
Speaker 4: we really want her to be acquitted, but.
Speaker 3: Are they going to come after us? So who's going
Speaker 3: to speak out?
Speaker 4: Another one of them said to me, Michelle, you know,
Speaker 4: I'm Sam. We've had eight years of hell. You know
Speaker 4: They've been told they can't they can't converse with each other,
Speaker 4: they can't meet Lucy. They were friends with Lucy, some
Speaker 4: of them were on holiday with Lucy. Some of them,
Speaker 4: subsequently from the guilty verdict coming in, have completely broken
Speaker 4: contact with Lucy.
Speaker 1: Beth and Jenny and Michelle are just three nurses out
Speaker 1: of thousands in the UK who have concerns about this case.
Speaker 2: So social media became very, very active and it ended
Speaker 2: up with three groups though, with the guilty group sitting
Speaker 2: on the fence group and the innocent group, and it
Speaker 2: started to get quite vocal, so I distanced myself from
Speaker 2: it along with my friend Bertie, and we set up
Speaker 2: a group for people to discuss the cases. Through that,
Speaker 2: we've come to meet an awful lot of people from
Speaker 2: the medical professions, not just nurses, you know a lot
Speaker 2: of people professors and specialists in their fields. So we've
Speaker 2: been able to talk a lot amongst ourselves. We set
Speaker 2: a group up. It was a closed group, and we
Speaker 2: found as well when we started looking at in depth
Speaker 2: into this, that there were so many nurses that were
Speaker 2: too frightened to speak out. It turns out the doctors
Speaker 2: as well. There are quite a few that we've been
Speaker 2: told of still frightened to speak out.
Speaker 1: This group, it's called nineteen Nurses. It's a place where
Speaker 1: medical professionals can ask questions about the Lucy let Be
Speaker 1: case anonymously. They are also working with Lucy's new lawyer
Speaker 1: on a judicial review of her case, and they support
Speaker 1: whistleblowers and nurses who worry their rights may have been violated.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of anger out there. I think one
Speaker 2: of the things this case is really on earth is
Speaker 2: how medical cases, how complex they are, and that we
Speaker 2: really should not be investigated by police, and that the
Speaker 2: judicial system itself needs a complete overhoul. We must confront
Speaker 2: uncomfortable truth. Our healthcare system has developed a toxic tendency
Speaker 2: to seek individual blame rather than address systemic failure. Ye
Speaker 2: When something goes wrong, and healthcare things inevitably do go wrong,
Speaker 2: there is often a rush to find someone to hold accountable,
Speaker 2: someone to punish, someone, to sacrifice it on the altar
Speaker 2: of public accountability.
Speaker 1: Michelle Warden agrees.
Speaker 4: Things happen in garages when you're repairing a car. Why
Speaker 4: on earth would people think that it's not going to
Speaker 4: happen in a hospital. But the important thing is is
Speaker 4: to recognize it, not to call the person out for
Speaker 4: making that mistake, because then they just go I'm not
Speaker 4: going to say anything when it happens again, I'm going
Speaker 4: to push it underground, but to address how you can
Speaker 4: improve the system. I don't know why these consultants got
Speaker 4: the idea that it was a nurse as opposed to
Speaker 4: a system failure or suboptimal care. There is very much
Speaker 4: an ethos in the United Kingdom of doctors of God.
Speaker 4: You don't question a doctor, you believe them. I loved nursing.
Speaker 4: Would I do it again?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 4: Knowing what I know now.
Speaker 1: Next time? On doubt the case of Lucy let Be.
Speaker 6: We did not find any murders. In all cases death
Speaker 6: or injury.
Speaker 3: Would you to?
Speaker 6: Natural causes are just bad medical care in our opinion,
Speaker 6: the medical opinion, the medical evidence doesn't support murders.
Speaker 1: Doubt the Case of Lucy let Bee is brought to
Speaker 1: you by Vespucci, I Heard Podcasts and Knox Robinson Productions.
Speaker 1: I've been your host, Amanda Knox. This episode was written
Speaker 1: by Kathleen Goldheard. The co producer was Lucy Ditchmond. The
Speaker 1: senior producer was Natalia Rodriguez. The assistant producer was Amy Gill.
Speaker 1: The sound designer is Tom Biddle. The theme music was
Speaker 1: written Tom Biddle. Story editing by Kathleen goldhard fact checking
Speaker 1: by Amy Gill. Legal advice was provided by Jack Browning.
Speaker 1: The executive producers were Joe Meek, Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson,
Speaker 1: Daniel Turkin, and Johnny Galvin. Thank you for listening.